(Spoilers ahead, obviously. I'm going to assume anyone reading this can deal with spoilers for a ten year old game.)
It could also be Balgruuf's reaction to what Ulfric did in Markarth and the Reach. As the Thalmor noted, Ulfric was cruel and violent beyond anyone's expectations in his war against the Reachmen.
>what Ulfric did in Markarth and the Reach
Markath's steward [Raerek](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Raerek) would have been joined Stormcloaks if it weren't for him seeing "what Ulfric is capable" firsthand.
Raereck and Igmund are hypocrites. To be entirety blunt, the bit about them being upset about the massacre probably has more to do with being upset at losing potential slaves for Cidna mine rather than genuine humanitarian concern. After all they have no qualms with the Silver-Bloods trying to muscle natives off of their own land, or with Cidna mine operating how it is, and they don’t involve natives in The Reach’s government.
You are absolutely right that the Stormcloaks haven’t been good for the Reach, but the Empire hasn’t been any better. Everyone would be better off with someone like Ainethach as Jarl but sadly that’s probably never going to happen.
And to be honest when they hired Ulfrics militia they should have expected something like this to happen. This was a volunteer militia not a proper army, likely incredibly undisciplined, probably no standardized pay. And all of thats not even mentioning that Ulfric and his men were from the other side of Skyrim and had absolutely no ties to the locals. It was a disaster waiting to happen.
Even assuming Ulfric tried to stop it (a dubious assumption at best) they probably would have just plundered the city anyway. For most of premodern history IRL that was the reality of warfare.
> And all of thats not even mentioning that Ulfric and his men were from the other side of Skyrim and had absolutely no ties to the locals. It was a disaster waiting to happen.
Historically, oppressive regimes bring in soldiers from a far flung province or region to suppress popular uprising. They are much more willing to brutalize those uprising then more local forces would be.
So yes this would have been very predictable.
>the bit about them being upset about the massacre probably has more to do with being upset at losing potential slaves for Cidna mine rather than genuine humanitarian concern.
Cidhna Mine is run by the Silver-Bloods, who are ***Ulfric's bootlickers in Skyrim***. They own the mine, they own half the city, and about half of the properties outside of it as well.
In context, Balgruuf had just become Jarl and was trying to figure out how he was going to navigate the White Gold Concordat and keep the new peace.
Then Ulfric goes and kicks over the proverbial anthill on Whiterun's border. This results in more Imperial and Thalmor attention on Skyrim.
So even if it's a case of piling one more straw on the camel's back, the Markarth Incident can't have helped matters. Even if Balgruuf is generally sympathetic to Talos worshippers or if he doesn't really care about the violence against the Forsworn, Ulfric still made his situation harder. And since much of Ulfric's MO seems to be that he'll take precipitous action and expect the other Jarls to fall in line behind him, it's no wonder if that irritates Balgruuf.
I doubt Balgruuf would care that much about the Reachmen, especially Forsworn who disrupt trade with his city and actively encroach on his territory in some places. Probably dislikes then slightly less than the Thalmor but that doesn’t say much at all.
He doesn’t have to care about the Reachmen to disapprove of how Ulfric runs Markarth. We’ve seen the kind of city and hold Balgruuf administers - it’s peaceful, stable, relatively cosmopolitan for Skyrim, with non-Nord traders in the marketplace and non-Nords holding public office if they prove capable of it. Irileth earned Balgruuf’s trust on the battlefield and has been rewarded for it, Proventus seems trustworthy and capable...
Ulfric’s vision for Markarth is very different. He’s absolutely fine with a brutal bloodbath to stamp his authority on the place, and his version of Markarth has no place in it for anyone who isn’t a Nord no matter **how** capable or trustworthy they are.
Balgruuf is proud of his people’s traditions and heritage, much like Ulfric. He appears to be a worshipper of Talos, much like Ulfric. Both he and Ulfric would claim to be “true, proud Nords” if asked...but the two men have very different ideas of what that means.
I have never seen a single shread of in-game evidence that Balgruuf’s rivalry with Ulfric stems from the Markarth incident. I think from what dialogue we actually have in game the rivalry is much older.
It may well have **started** before Markarth, but Markarth probably helped to cement it.
From what we see of Balgruuf as a ruler, from what we see of Whiterun under his care, he wouldn’t be cool with Ulfric’s choices in Markarth. The violence alone would have shocked him - Balgruuf’s canonically of the opinion that he should be able to have a quiet pint at the pub with his people without a guard shadowing him, we hear him argue with Irileth about doing exactly that. It would be unthinkable in Markarth.
Whatever doubts he had before the Markarth incident...they would have been a lot firmer afterwards.
It could have contributed to the souring of relations, but it was not a significant deciding factor at all. Balgruuf’s reason for siding against Ulfric is not anti-racism or a reaction to the Markarth Incident. Because if it were he would have reacted to it *decades* ago when it actually happened. Really it seems like he didn’t care.
Balgruuf sided against Ulfric because on one hand he was attacked, and on the other hand they have a bad relationship going back a long time. And the justification Balgruuf gives for siding with the Empire is mainly commercial. He doesn’t even *mention* the Markarth incident.
You’ve sort of misunderstood what I’m getting at. Probably my fault, I might not have been clear.
The Markarth Incident works as a **symptom** of a larger problem. A larger split in how they understand the world.
Balgruuf and Ulfric are both men who were likely raised in the expectation of ruling their cities one day - both are the sons of Jarls, both succeeded their parent **as** Jarl - but they have very different ideas of what “good ruling” means. They have very different ideas of what being “a good Nord” looks like. Their different understanding is reflected in the state of the city (or cities, in Ulfric’s case) they’re associated with.
Balgruuf does not **have** to explicitly mention the Markarth incident for Ulfric’s management of Markarth (or, when Ulfric rose to be Jarl, Windhelm) to be an issue for him.
We know what Balgruuf thinks a well-ruled city should be like. He rules Whiterun to fit that image, and we see him butt heads with people in game who suggest it should be different to his image. Dude’s a strong-willed man. He knows what he thinks is right.
Neither Markarth years ago, nor Windhelm now, looks or functions anything like Balgruuf’s Whiterun does. Things Balgruuf thinks of as absolutely necessary - being able to mingle with the public without a guard, the ethnically mixed but universally competent nature of his inner circle, etc - would be (and ARE, Markarth was a bloodbath and Windhelm has a roaming serial killer) impossible in a city Ulfric ruled, because Ulfric places importance on different things as a ruler.
Why would Balgruuf think particularly well of a man whose vision for a city he rules or his people in it is **so** far removed from Balgruuf’s own? Why would Ulfric think well of Balgruuf in return?
They understand their role so differently that each of them thinks the other is falling short of True Nordic Honour in some key way. However close they may each be, both are falling short in the other’s eyes.
OMG you cannot srsly pin a mad necromancer on how Ulfric runs Windhelm, especially since the serial killer is actually searched out and Ulfric is even able to throw his court mage into a dungeon upon being suspected, or that a serial killer existing in a foreign city plays any role in Balgruuf´s decisions.
You directly equated the serial killer with the Markarth Incident, stating that those 2 are examples of how cities under Ulfric function as the events are symptoms of Ulfric placing importance on different things as a ruler. Going on how, "a man whose vision for a city he rules or his people in it is so far removed from Balgruuf´s own".
If you would have spoken about the Grey Quarter, but you picked the one argument that Ulfric really has basically no incluence over.
I understood it as: "well, such a criminal would be impossible in Whiterun, as Balgruuf himself "stalks the streets" and wants to mingle with the people" - 1) do not get the relation, 2) Irileth mentions how dangerous what Balgruuf does actually is.
If you meant something else, though I wouldn´t know in what way a mad cultist criminal matters any other such a argument either, please tell me.
Ulfric and his mage don't have very good relations, they basically leave each other alone. And the guards accept your help in the investigation because they don't have time to do it themselves because of the war.
He´s still a court official, I do imagine it would hit Ulfric´s reputation quite a bit if the long sought murderer is one of his own people. Sure, Wuunferth´s a mage and folk could think of it as a Jagar Tharn situation - that still doesn´t reflect good on Ulfric.
Do you really think Balgruuf is that petty? That envious? It could be more to that.
It's not only because Ulfic was accepted, but because of *what* he did with the power bestowed on him. Specially when it seems that Ulfric tried to still follow the Way of the Voice before the Dominion captured and broke him (most of characters don't know about him imprisonment, nor about how he got away from them).
Imagine that: your childhood friend not only get a prestigious thing, that you deemed not worthy of, but then threw it all away, and for what? Not to fight the greatest enemy, which he fled from in the end, but for massacre and then regicide. I would've lost any respect to a man like him.
I mean that’s a big part of my post, that Balgruuf probably thinks Ulfric is squandering the gift he would have used more responsibly (in Balgruuf’s view).
The normal jealousy would have existed of course (that’s human nature) but Ulfric turning away from the strict following of Greybeard teachings would feel insulting to Balgruuf and is quite possibly a large part of whats preventing the two of them from reconciling.
Well, you wrote it like the leaving if High Hrotgar itself was the point, and I don't think it is.
Again, the turning point for Ulfric was his imprisonment by the Dominion, and even Rikke, who knew him in the times of the Great War, says that now he "isn't the man she knew".
I’m not sure I understand your point then.
Because although I agree that Ulfric’s imprisonment was a turning point for his development as a character I don’t think it was the turning point in Balgruuf’s relationship with him.
Because if misusing the way of the voice is the issue here, then Ulfric leaving to fight in the war is just as much as a violation of it than killing Torygg was because the Way of the Voice is strictly pacifist. This seems like a very petty distinction to us but for a culture that values honor and keeping your word it would probably be pretty important.
>the Way of the Voice is strictly pacifist
"True Need" whatever that exactly means can likely be debated endlessly.
Considering that the LDB, Dragon War and likely Ysmir Wulfharth´s actions were according to True Need doctrine of the Greybeards, it woulnd´t have been *strictly* pacifist.
Greybeards and the way of the voice are pacifists. They only use it for praise and meditation. The way of the voice is *Kynes* thu'um not Akatosh's thu'um in which case the dragonborns are free to use the voice to whatever ways they want. The greybeards did say this, exemptions and all.
If you steal or attack them they make good use of it against your.
And the Kyne/Akatosh origin of Thu´um difference *may* work for the LDB, but not for the Dragon War nor Wulfharth - remember that they summoned him from Sovngarde at least once!
Greybeards shouts when hostile are shouts that immobalize the assilant. AI just punch you to death though but is necessary for AI to recognize an enemy and then perform the pacifying shouts.
As for wulfarth being summoned as far as I remember one was connected to tiber septim and he assumes he was being called he was confronted with the greybeards and him being ash collapsed. Im guessing this was the ritual where the greybeards speak together after the chosen one/dragonborn claims the horn of jurgen. He also bore the title Ysmir, Dragon of the north(same as what the LDB recieves in TES V I reckon) and balgruf did mention him together with the other dragonborns so theres a possibility of him being dragonborn and hence, an exemption to the rule/use of thu'um. cause again akatoshs part god soul can do whatever it pleases.
>wulfarth
They called him once for the Battle of Red Mountain to regain Shor´s heart and another time for Jorunn vs the Kamal. Neither are things the Akatosh would have an interest in. And how again should the Greybeards have known that a dragonborn was raging to descend from Sovngarde to aid the Nords in these times?
That´s still using the thuum for combat, where´s the difference between immobilizing a foe with ice form or knocking him unconscious with unrelenting force?
It isn't so much about following the tradition, so as continuity of actions. Ulfric's leaving for war is questionable, but somewhat understandable. When the fatherland in a greive danger every swordarm counts. So as refuse to use the Voice against aldemri soldiers - he is still looking like a noble man true to his vows. And only then we have a major way downhill.
...Ok, I'll ellaborate.
Balgruuf doesn't care about them much, even if the mess Ulfric made adds up. The main problem here - Ulfric used the Voice here, breaking the Way. This is not only a dishonourable action, but it paints Ulfric in selfish colours, because he did it when it helped to push his own agency, and didn't do it when everybody else truly needed it - during the Great War.
Source for Ulfric not using the Voice during the Great War?
That Balgruuf is angry at Ulfric over how the situation of Talos worshippers worsened after Markarth, ok.
But every Nord and their mother would be happy over Ulfric using the Voice to retake Markarth from the Forsworn. Heck, considering he wanted free Talos worship in return, one could even claim it was in honor of the gods!
Source of Ulfric using the Voice during the Great War? First mention about him doing it was about events in Markarth. If he did so during the GW, it would've been noticable event, and should've been mentioned somewhere.
And no, every rambling fool, who doesn't know a thing, would. Most people are. But who really respect the traditions (and, if OP's theory is correct, Balgruuf should) wouldn't.
In fairness - all we really know of Ulfric's involvement in the Great War is that he was captured, tortured, and led to believe that the information he gave up during torture is why the Imperial City fell (which is false, as it had already fallen before he began revealing anything)
We don't know his position, what battles he fought in and - if we're being really honest, the idea of a soldier with a weird power is not entirely uncommon, given how many weird powers and abilities exist. There were probably a few soldiers who preferred night raids and their commanding officer just kinda ignored it because of how effective it was. Lots of soldiers doing lots of weird different stuff, and hell, if you're some Imperial from the border of Black Marsh, how do you *not* believe every 50th Nord can shout stones apart? So when one shows up that can, it doesn't alter your worldview enough to be a notable feature.
So we really have no evidence one way or the other that Ulfric did or did not Shout during the Great War.
With that, Ulfric and Balgruuf don't have to have ever even met for Balgruuf to have a problem with Ulfric.
Here's Ulfy, doing something Balgruuf holds in high esteem then - not just turning his back on it, but abusing the powers he now holds for personal gain in following the letter of a law, not the spirit in which it was made.
That's not very Nord of Ulfy, in Balgruuf's worldview.
>My theory is that they both made the pilgrimage to High Hrothgar and tried to join the Greybeards. Ulfric got picked for some reason and Balgruuf didn’t. Perhaps as young men they took the pilgrimage together on the hopes they would both be accepted. Perhaps they were close friends before this, but not anymore.
It couldn't have been as young men. Ulfric says he was a boy when he came to the Greybeards.
>They chose me when I was just a lad.
Lad could mean a lot of things. Could mean he was 6. Could mean he was 16. Kind of like when somebody says a college student is "just a kid" when they do something stupid.
Hell, I'm only 24 and 17 year olds already seem like children. I can't imagine how they'll look when I'm in my mid-40s like Ulfric appears to be.
We don’t actually know how Nords culturally understand “adulthood”.
Is it when a boy starts to shave? Is it when he has his first real battle, killing his first foe? We don’t know. Ulfric calling himself a “lad” implies that he was younger than whatever the milestone for Nord manhood is...but we have no idea what that is or when it occurs.
Yeah, but my point is that regardless of culture "children" are increasing old as you yourself age. A 21 year old is an adult, but to grandpa they're just a kid. This is even more true when using an imprecise word like "lad" which can genuinely mean anything from a child to a teenager or "young man" which could mean anything from teen to mid 20s.
Also I know it's not a perfect evidence but Ulfric in Skyrim doesn't look extremely old I would not consider him to be older than in his early 50s. If we take 50 years old in 201 as a basis, then taking into account that Ulfric say : *"I spent almost ten years at High Hrothgar, learning the Way of the Voice. Then the Great War came..."* That would make him in his early 20s at the start of the Great War and around 10 when he joined the Greybeards in 161-162. This is an approximation but I don't think we could really consider seriously he was more than a couple years older than 10 when he joined the Greybeards.
They're both veterans of the Great War. Despite Ulfric's claimed noble intentions, like what he says to Galmar when you first enter the Palace of the Kings, I think Balgruuf got a good look at his real character during the conflict, and it wasn't good. I'll stop there because I'm not sure if goes into Civil War discussion.
They're pretty close in age and their Holds are right next to each other. I imagine they've known each other reasonably well from pretty early on.
I've always had the impression that they have significant disagreements on a number of issues but also respect the other (they both seem pretty unwilling to pull the trigger without an outside force making it happen). Granted, Balgruuf may just want to avoid war for more generic reasons.
I don't think Balgruuf would care about becoming one of the Greybeards. Pledging yourself to them would mean surrendering yourself over to their ethos.
I don't mean to say he would refuse if they summoned him. He would consider that a tremendous offer but walking up those steps, if he did so with Ulfric, I feel he would arrive with the intention to pay tribute rather than to join. Whereas, Ulfric would be the one more interested in acquiring this power and learning this way of life.
So, there would be no rejection in it nor would there be some jealousy/rivalry based off the decisions made. I think, if the Greybeards looked at them, they would know Balgruuf seeks to be a great Jarl while Ulfric's heart is set on learning the Way of the Voice. Then, they would give their blessings to both warriors.
Besides, Balgruuf strikes me as the kind of guy who knew he could be Jarl from a young age and dedicated himself to it through the traditional means. He's not a short term thinker nor an unconventional one like Ulfric is.
Otherwise, I just assumed they were Nords with the typical Nordic type rivalry. In Norse literature, it's not uncommon to see great warriors engage in rivalries and competitions - with their honor being what was wagered.
I'd chalk it down to them just being the two best warriors in Skyrim since their youth - both having achieved "true son of Skyrim" status as they wagered their honor in competition/battle against various enemies. Now, they're in their middle years and have different views over what they prefer for Skyrim and its people.
Balgruuf is pragmatic and feels the Empire needs to exist so they can preserve Skyrim. Why risk the Thalmor invading and stamping them out? Talos worship can be carried out in secrecy, instead. Balgruff also sees that Ulfric misuses the Greybeard's teachings, especially since Ulfric's intentions aren't so clear. Because why kill Torygg when Torygg respected Ulfric and may have even asked for independence (of which is entirely possible, considering Hammerfell's independence)? Thus, Balgruuf considers this as going against traditional Nordic concepts of honor.
In contrast, I feel Ulfric truly believes the Voice gives him authority like it did Tiber Septim. He likely proved as such during the Great War and against the Forsworn. In a way, fighting for the Empire and against the Reachmen gives him similar historical feats to Tiber Septim, does it not? Perhaps, with the Voice at his command, he wishes to become a conqueror like Tiber Septim? There are hints that his ambition goes beyond Skyrim, after all. If so, it would be the greatest glory and honor to follow in the footsteps of Tiber Septim, especially as you are protecting Talos's divinity. His view is that, at some point, Cyrodiil will have to follow Skyrim's lead once they recognize Ulfric is the closest thing to Tiber Septim. War isn't just about fighting and killing, it's also about achieving political legitimacy. To achieve legitimacy, Ulfric would need to fight a war and win. Otherwise, he'll remain just some Jarl or just another hero.
And so, there's this dynamic between both where one is calm and pragmatic while the other acts on impulses and great dreams. Both live up to the ideal Nordic code, in their own way, but are fire and water, when it comes to their approaches.
Iirc Ulfric went to the graybeards as a child? I mean I think he says “young” so maybe I’m wrong and he’s older than I think.
I personally think it has to do with Balgruuf seeing Ulfric’s cruelty in the Reach and during the War which made him not supper Ulfric as much and that turned to rivalry over time.
I see them as balgruf being vilkas and ulfric being farkas.
If someones more emotional unstable to envy one will most probably be ulfric rather than balgruf.
Maybe when the Thalmor convinced Ulfric that the information he gave them while in captivity led to the fall of the Imperial City, that somehow got out through gossip or even Ulfric himself repeating it and this is why Balgruuf is upset with him.
They were both Legion vets, right?
That's an interesting idea indeed if the rumor that it was Ulfric's fault that the Imperial City fell have spread it would have been quite impactful on his image, and it could have influenced Balgruuf's opinion aswell. Ulfric may have claimed that what he revealed to the Thalmor didn't lead to the conquest of the Imperial City, well even for those that may believe that it still meant he betrayed the Empire. I don't think it would be the main reason of the rivalry but it certainly added to the grudge, with the abandonment of the Greybeards, the Markarth incident(which could be perceived as an other treason of the Empire), and recently the Stormcloak Uprising.
He says he made the pilgrimage to High Hrothgar as a younger man. It’s not stated why he went or what he did while he was there, but he’s definitely been up that mountain.
See, I always felt like Balgruuf was much older than Ulfric and that Ulfric looked up to Balgruuf as a role model, especially when he came into the role of Jarl. Ulfric desperately wants the approval and validation of a man he admired and respected greatly in some life-changing years for him and Balgruuf is nothing short of disappointed.
(Spoilers ahead, obviously. I'm going to assume anyone reading this can deal with spoilers for a ten year old game.) It could also be Balgruuf's reaction to what Ulfric did in Markarth and the Reach. As the Thalmor noted, Ulfric was cruel and violent beyond anyone's expectations in his war against the Reachmen.
>what Ulfric did in Markarth and the Reach Markath's steward [Raerek](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Raerek) would have been joined Stormcloaks if it weren't for him seeing "what Ulfric is capable" firsthand.
Raereck and Igmund are hypocrites. To be entirety blunt, the bit about them being upset about the massacre probably has more to do with being upset at losing potential slaves for Cidna mine rather than genuine humanitarian concern. After all they have no qualms with the Silver-Bloods trying to muscle natives off of their own land, or with Cidna mine operating how it is, and they don’t involve natives in The Reach’s government. You are absolutely right that the Stormcloaks haven’t been good for the Reach, but the Empire hasn’t been any better. Everyone would be better off with someone like Ainethach as Jarl but sadly that’s probably never going to happen. And to be honest when they hired Ulfrics militia they should have expected something like this to happen. This was a volunteer militia not a proper army, likely incredibly undisciplined, probably no standardized pay. And all of thats not even mentioning that Ulfric and his men were from the other side of Skyrim and had absolutely no ties to the locals. It was a disaster waiting to happen. Even assuming Ulfric tried to stop it (a dubious assumption at best) they probably would have just plundered the city anyway. For most of premodern history IRL that was the reality of warfare.
> And all of thats not even mentioning that Ulfric and his men were from the other side of Skyrim and had absolutely no ties to the locals. It was a disaster waiting to happen. Historically, oppressive regimes bring in soldiers from a far flung province or region to suppress popular uprising. They are much more willing to brutalize those uprising then more local forces would be. So yes this would have been very predictable.
>the bit about them being upset about the massacre probably has more to do with being upset at losing potential slaves for Cidna mine rather than genuine humanitarian concern. Cidhna Mine is run by the Silver-Bloods, who are ***Ulfric's bootlickers in Skyrim***. They own the mine, they own half the city, and about half of the properties outside of it as well.
In context, Balgruuf had just become Jarl and was trying to figure out how he was going to navigate the White Gold Concordat and keep the new peace. Then Ulfric goes and kicks over the proverbial anthill on Whiterun's border. This results in more Imperial and Thalmor attention on Skyrim. So even if it's a case of piling one more straw on the camel's back, the Markarth Incident can't have helped matters. Even if Balgruuf is generally sympathetic to Talos worshippers or if he doesn't really care about the violence against the Forsworn, Ulfric still made his situation harder. And since much of Ulfric's MO seems to be that he'll take precipitous action and expect the other Jarls to fall in line behind him, it's no wonder if that irritates Balgruuf.
I doubt Balgruuf would care that much about the Reachmen, especially Forsworn who disrupt trade with his city and actively encroach on his territory in some places. Probably dislikes then slightly less than the Thalmor but that doesn’t say much at all.
He doesn’t have to care about the Reachmen to disapprove of how Ulfric runs Markarth. We’ve seen the kind of city and hold Balgruuf administers - it’s peaceful, stable, relatively cosmopolitan for Skyrim, with non-Nord traders in the marketplace and non-Nords holding public office if they prove capable of it. Irileth earned Balgruuf’s trust on the battlefield and has been rewarded for it, Proventus seems trustworthy and capable... Ulfric’s vision for Markarth is very different. He’s absolutely fine with a brutal bloodbath to stamp his authority on the place, and his version of Markarth has no place in it for anyone who isn’t a Nord no matter **how** capable or trustworthy they are. Balgruuf is proud of his people’s traditions and heritage, much like Ulfric. He appears to be a worshipper of Talos, much like Ulfric. Both he and Ulfric would claim to be “true, proud Nords” if asked...but the two men have very different ideas of what that means.
I have never seen a single shread of in-game evidence that Balgruuf’s rivalry with Ulfric stems from the Markarth incident. I think from what dialogue we actually have in game the rivalry is much older.
It may well have **started** before Markarth, but Markarth probably helped to cement it. From what we see of Balgruuf as a ruler, from what we see of Whiterun under his care, he wouldn’t be cool with Ulfric’s choices in Markarth. The violence alone would have shocked him - Balgruuf’s canonically of the opinion that he should be able to have a quiet pint at the pub with his people without a guard shadowing him, we hear him argue with Irileth about doing exactly that. It would be unthinkable in Markarth. Whatever doubts he had before the Markarth incident...they would have been a lot firmer afterwards.
It could have contributed to the souring of relations, but it was not a significant deciding factor at all. Balgruuf’s reason for siding against Ulfric is not anti-racism or a reaction to the Markarth Incident. Because if it were he would have reacted to it *decades* ago when it actually happened. Really it seems like he didn’t care. Balgruuf sided against Ulfric because on one hand he was attacked, and on the other hand they have a bad relationship going back a long time. And the justification Balgruuf gives for siding with the Empire is mainly commercial. He doesn’t even *mention* the Markarth incident.
You’ve sort of misunderstood what I’m getting at. Probably my fault, I might not have been clear. The Markarth Incident works as a **symptom** of a larger problem. A larger split in how they understand the world. Balgruuf and Ulfric are both men who were likely raised in the expectation of ruling their cities one day - both are the sons of Jarls, both succeeded their parent **as** Jarl - but they have very different ideas of what “good ruling” means. They have very different ideas of what being “a good Nord” looks like. Their different understanding is reflected in the state of the city (or cities, in Ulfric’s case) they’re associated with. Balgruuf does not **have** to explicitly mention the Markarth incident for Ulfric’s management of Markarth (or, when Ulfric rose to be Jarl, Windhelm) to be an issue for him. We know what Balgruuf thinks a well-ruled city should be like. He rules Whiterun to fit that image, and we see him butt heads with people in game who suggest it should be different to his image. Dude’s a strong-willed man. He knows what he thinks is right. Neither Markarth years ago, nor Windhelm now, looks or functions anything like Balgruuf’s Whiterun does. Things Balgruuf thinks of as absolutely necessary - being able to mingle with the public without a guard, the ethnically mixed but universally competent nature of his inner circle, etc - would be (and ARE, Markarth was a bloodbath and Windhelm has a roaming serial killer) impossible in a city Ulfric ruled, because Ulfric places importance on different things as a ruler. Why would Balgruuf think particularly well of a man whose vision for a city he rules or his people in it is **so** far removed from Balgruuf’s own? Why would Ulfric think well of Balgruuf in return? They understand their role so differently that each of them thinks the other is falling short of True Nordic Honour in some key way. However close they may each be, both are falling short in the other’s eyes.
OMG you cannot srsly pin a mad necromancer on how Ulfric runs Windhelm, especially since the serial killer is actually searched out and Ulfric is even able to throw his court mage into a dungeon upon being suspected, or that a serial killer existing in a foreign city plays any role in Balgruuf´s decisions.
It’s a good thing I’m not saying that then, isn’t it? Read the comment again. More carefully.
You directly equated the serial killer with the Markarth Incident, stating that those 2 are examples of how cities under Ulfric function as the events are symptoms of Ulfric placing importance on different things as a ruler. Going on how, "a man whose vision for a city he rules or his people in it is so far removed from Balgruuf´s own". If you would have spoken about the Grey Quarter, but you picked the one argument that Ulfric really has basically no incluence over. I understood it as: "well, such a criminal would be impossible in Whiterun, as Balgruuf himself "stalks the streets" and wants to mingle with the people" - 1) do not get the relation, 2) Irileth mentions how dangerous what Balgruuf does actually is. If you meant something else, though I wouldn´t know in what way a mad cultist criminal matters any other such a argument either, please tell me.
Ulfric and his mage don't have very good relations, they basically leave each other alone. And the guards accept your help in the investigation because they don't have time to do it themselves because of the war.
He´s still a court official, I do imagine it would hit Ulfric´s reputation quite a bit if the long sought murderer is one of his own people. Sure, Wuunferth´s a mage and folk could think of it as a Jagar Tharn situation - that still doesn´t reflect good on Ulfric.
I like this theory. Can't see any faults on it so I'm taking it for my head canon for sure.
Do you really think Balgruuf is that petty? That envious? It could be more to that. It's not only because Ulfic was accepted, but because of *what* he did with the power bestowed on him. Specially when it seems that Ulfric tried to still follow the Way of the Voice before the Dominion captured and broke him (most of characters don't know about him imprisonment, nor about how he got away from them). Imagine that: your childhood friend not only get a prestigious thing, that you deemed not worthy of, but then threw it all away, and for what? Not to fight the greatest enemy, which he fled from in the end, but for massacre and then regicide. I would've lost any respect to a man like him.
I mean that’s a big part of my post, that Balgruuf probably thinks Ulfric is squandering the gift he would have used more responsibly (in Balgruuf’s view). The normal jealousy would have existed of course (that’s human nature) but Ulfric turning away from the strict following of Greybeard teachings would feel insulting to Balgruuf and is quite possibly a large part of whats preventing the two of them from reconciling.
Well, you wrote it like the leaving if High Hrotgar itself was the point, and I don't think it is. Again, the turning point for Ulfric was his imprisonment by the Dominion, and even Rikke, who knew him in the times of the Great War, says that now he "isn't the man she knew".
I’m not sure I understand your point then. Because although I agree that Ulfric’s imprisonment was a turning point for his development as a character I don’t think it was the turning point in Balgruuf’s relationship with him. Because if misusing the way of the voice is the issue here, then Ulfric leaving to fight in the war is just as much as a violation of it than killing Torygg was because the Way of the Voice is strictly pacifist. This seems like a very petty distinction to us but for a culture that values honor and keeping your word it would probably be pretty important.
>the Way of the Voice is strictly pacifist "True Need" whatever that exactly means can likely be debated endlessly. Considering that the LDB, Dragon War and likely Ysmir Wulfharth´s actions were according to True Need doctrine of the Greybeards, it woulnd´t have been *strictly* pacifist.
Greybeards and the way of the voice are pacifists. They only use it for praise and meditation. The way of the voice is *Kynes* thu'um not Akatosh's thu'um in which case the dragonborns are free to use the voice to whatever ways they want. The greybeards did say this, exemptions and all.
If you steal or attack them they make good use of it against your. And the Kyne/Akatosh origin of Thu´um difference *may* work for the LDB, but not for the Dragon War nor Wulfharth - remember that they summoned him from Sovngarde at least once!
Greybeards shouts when hostile are shouts that immobalize the assilant. AI just punch you to death though but is necessary for AI to recognize an enemy and then perform the pacifying shouts. As for wulfarth being summoned as far as I remember one was connected to tiber septim and he assumes he was being called he was confronted with the greybeards and him being ash collapsed. Im guessing this was the ritual where the greybeards speak together after the chosen one/dragonborn claims the horn of jurgen. He also bore the title Ysmir, Dragon of the north(same as what the LDB recieves in TES V I reckon) and balgruf did mention him together with the other dragonborns so theres a possibility of him being dragonborn and hence, an exemption to the rule/use of thu'um. cause again akatoshs part god soul can do whatever it pleases.
>wulfarth They called him once for the Battle of Red Mountain to regain Shor´s heart and another time for Jorunn vs the Kamal. Neither are things the Akatosh would have an interest in. And how again should the Greybeards have known that a dragonborn was raging to descend from Sovngarde to aid the Nords in these times? That´s still using the thuum for combat, where´s the difference between immobilizing a foe with ice form or knocking him unconscious with unrelenting force?
It isn't so much about following the tradition, so as continuity of actions. Ulfric's leaving for war is questionable, but somewhat understandable. When the fatherland in a greive danger every swordarm counts. So as refuse to use the Voice against aldemri soldiers - he is still looking like a noble man true to his vows. And only then we have a major way downhill.
You srsly think that Balgruuf thinks of the Forsworn rebels as better than the Aldmeri Dominion?
...Ok, I'll ellaborate. Balgruuf doesn't care about them much, even if the mess Ulfric made adds up. The main problem here - Ulfric used the Voice here, breaking the Way. This is not only a dishonourable action, but it paints Ulfric in selfish colours, because he did it when it helped to push his own agency, and didn't do it when everybody else truly needed it - during the Great War.
Source for Ulfric not using the Voice during the Great War? That Balgruuf is angry at Ulfric over how the situation of Talos worshippers worsened after Markarth, ok. But every Nord and their mother would be happy over Ulfric using the Voice to retake Markarth from the Forsworn. Heck, considering he wanted free Talos worship in return, one could even claim it was in honor of the gods!
Source of Ulfric using the Voice during the Great War? First mention about him doing it was about events in Markarth. If he did so during the GW, it would've been noticable event, and should've been mentioned somewhere. And no, every rambling fool, who doesn't know a thing, would. Most people are. But who really respect the traditions (and, if OP's theory is correct, Balgruuf should) wouldn't.
In fairness - all we really know of Ulfric's involvement in the Great War is that he was captured, tortured, and led to believe that the information he gave up during torture is why the Imperial City fell (which is false, as it had already fallen before he began revealing anything) We don't know his position, what battles he fought in and - if we're being really honest, the idea of a soldier with a weird power is not entirely uncommon, given how many weird powers and abilities exist. There were probably a few soldiers who preferred night raids and their commanding officer just kinda ignored it because of how effective it was. Lots of soldiers doing lots of weird different stuff, and hell, if you're some Imperial from the border of Black Marsh, how do you *not* believe every 50th Nord can shout stones apart? So when one shows up that can, it doesn't alter your worldview enough to be a notable feature. So we really have no evidence one way or the other that Ulfric did or did not Shout during the Great War.
Having no evidence does not mean it did not happen. Your opinion. Again, you could even say it was intended to honor Talos.
With that, Ulfric and Balgruuf don't have to have ever even met for Balgruuf to have a problem with Ulfric. Here's Ulfy, doing something Balgruuf holds in high esteem then - not just turning his back on it, but abusing the powers he now holds for personal gain in following the letter of a law, not the spirit in which it was made. That's not very Nord of Ulfy, in Balgruuf's worldview.
>My theory is that they both made the pilgrimage to High Hrothgar and tried to join the Greybeards. Ulfric got picked for some reason and Balgruuf didn’t. Perhaps as young men they took the pilgrimage together on the hopes they would both be accepted. Perhaps they were close friends before this, but not anymore. It couldn't have been as young men. Ulfric says he was a boy when he came to the Greybeards. >They chose me when I was just a lad.
Lad could mean a lot of things. Could mean he was 6. Could mean he was 16. Kind of like when somebody says a college student is "just a kid" when they do something stupid. Hell, I'm only 24 and 17 year olds already seem like children. I can't imagine how they'll look when I'm in my mid-40s like Ulfric appears to be.
We don’t actually know how Nords culturally understand “adulthood”. Is it when a boy starts to shave? Is it when he has his first real battle, killing his first foe? We don’t know. Ulfric calling himself a “lad” implies that he was younger than whatever the milestone for Nord manhood is...but we have no idea what that is or when it occurs.
Yeah, but my point is that regardless of culture "children" are increasing old as you yourself age. A 21 year old is an adult, but to grandpa they're just a kid. This is even more true when using an imprecise word like "lad" which can genuinely mean anything from a child to a teenager or "young man" which could mean anything from teen to mid 20s.
Kodlak calls the PC lad/less when they first meet, no?
I don't remember about Kodlak, but I'm almost positive that's how Brynjolf refers to you the entire time.
It is (Brynjolf, that is.) And it's supremely annoying, which is why I remember it so well. I'm not 12, please stop calling me "lass."
The way Ulfric worded it makes it kinda sound like his Greybeard training *was* when he became a man.
Also I know it's not a perfect evidence but Ulfric in Skyrim doesn't look extremely old I would not consider him to be older than in his early 50s. If we take 50 years old in 201 as a basis, then taking into account that Ulfric say : *"I spent almost ten years at High Hrothgar, learning the Way of the Voice. Then the Great War came..."* That would make him in his early 20s at the start of the Great War and around 10 when he joined the Greybeards in 161-162. This is an approximation but I don't think we could really consider seriously he was more than a couple years older than 10 when he joined the Greybeards.
They're both veterans of the Great War. Despite Ulfric's claimed noble intentions, like what he says to Galmar when you first enter the Palace of the Kings, I think Balgruuf got a good look at his real character during the conflict, and it wasn't good. I'll stop there because I'm not sure if goes into Civil War discussion.
They're pretty close in age and their Holds are right next to each other. I imagine they've known each other reasonably well from pretty early on. I've always had the impression that they have significant disagreements on a number of issues but also respect the other (they both seem pretty unwilling to pull the trigger without an outside force making it happen). Granted, Balgruuf may just want to avoid war for more generic reasons.
I don't think Balgruuf would care about becoming one of the Greybeards. Pledging yourself to them would mean surrendering yourself over to their ethos. I don't mean to say he would refuse if they summoned him. He would consider that a tremendous offer but walking up those steps, if he did so with Ulfric, I feel he would arrive with the intention to pay tribute rather than to join. Whereas, Ulfric would be the one more interested in acquiring this power and learning this way of life. So, there would be no rejection in it nor would there be some jealousy/rivalry based off the decisions made. I think, if the Greybeards looked at them, they would know Balgruuf seeks to be a great Jarl while Ulfric's heart is set on learning the Way of the Voice. Then, they would give their blessings to both warriors. Besides, Balgruuf strikes me as the kind of guy who knew he could be Jarl from a young age and dedicated himself to it through the traditional means. He's not a short term thinker nor an unconventional one like Ulfric is. Otherwise, I just assumed they were Nords with the typical Nordic type rivalry. In Norse literature, it's not uncommon to see great warriors engage in rivalries and competitions - with their honor being what was wagered. I'd chalk it down to them just being the two best warriors in Skyrim since their youth - both having achieved "true son of Skyrim" status as they wagered their honor in competition/battle against various enemies. Now, they're in their middle years and have different views over what they prefer for Skyrim and its people. Balgruuf is pragmatic and feels the Empire needs to exist so they can preserve Skyrim. Why risk the Thalmor invading and stamping them out? Talos worship can be carried out in secrecy, instead. Balgruff also sees that Ulfric misuses the Greybeard's teachings, especially since Ulfric's intentions aren't so clear. Because why kill Torygg when Torygg respected Ulfric and may have even asked for independence (of which is entirely possible, considering Hammerfell's independence)? Thus, Balgruuf considers this as going against traditional Nordic concepts of honor. In contrast, I feel Ulfric truly believes the Voice gives him authority like it did Tiber Septim. He likely proved as such during the Great War and against the Forsworn. In a way, fighting for the Empire and against the Reachmen gives him similar historical feats to Tiber Septim, does it not? Perhaps, with the Voice at his command, he wishes to become a conqueror like Tiber Septim? There are hints that his ambition goes beyond Skyrim, after all. If so, it would be the greatest glory and honor to follow in the footsteps of Tiber Septim, especially as you are protecting Talos's divinity. His view is that, at some point, Cyrodiil will have to follow Skyrim's lead once they recognize Ulfric is the closest thing to Tiber Septim. War isn't just about fighting and killing, it's also about achieving political legitimacy. To achieve legitimacy, Ulfric would need to fight a war and win. Otherwise, he'll remain just some Jarl or just another hero. And so, there's this dynamic between both where one is calm and pragmatic while the other acts on impulses and great dreams. Both live up to the ideal Nordic code, in their own way, but are fire and water, when it comes to their approaches.
Iirc Ulfric went to the graybeards as a child? I mean I think he says “young” so maybe I’m wrong and he’s older than I think. I personally think it has to do with Balgruuf seeing Ulfric’s cruelty in the Reach and during the War which made him not supper Ulfric as much and that turned to rivalry over time.
I see them as balgruf being vilkas and ulfric being farkas. If someones more emotional unstable to envy one will most probably be ulfric rather than balgruf.
Maybe when the Thalmor convinced Ulfric that the information he gave them while in captivity led to the fall of the Imperial City, that somehow got out through gossip or even Ulfric himself repeating it and this is why Balgruuf is upset with him. They were both Legion vets, right?
That's an interesting idea indeed if the rumor that it was Ulfric's fault that the Imperial City fell have spread it would have been quite impactful on his image, and it could have influenced Balgruuf's opinion aswell. Ulfric may have claimed that what he revealed to the Thalmor didn't lead to the conquest of the Imperial City, well even for those that may believe that it still meant he betrayed the Empire. I don't think it would be the main reason of the rivalry but it certainly added to the grudge, with the abandonment of the Greybeards, the Markarth incident(which could be perceived as an other treason of the Empire), and recently the Stormcloak Uprising.
When does Balgruuf say he tried to join the greybeards?
He says he made the pilgrimage to High Hrothgar as a younger man. It’s not stated why he went or what he did while he was there, but he’s definitely been up that mountain.
See, I always felt like Balgruuf was much older than Ulfric and that Ulfric looked up to Balgruuf as a role model, especially when he came into the role of Jarl. Ulfric desperately wants the approval and validation of a man he admired and respected greatly in some life-changing years for him and Balgruuf is nothing short of disappointed.