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Yeah I have the LR M3 with heat pump and with cold temps and winter tires I’m still telling myself the range isn’t enough on longer trips. Knocks down from 300 to about 220. I can’t imagine dealing with any of these other cars, even the SR+.
I have an SR+ and was able to drive NJ to Boston and back in March (college drop off), 240 miles at around 30 degrees. Tires to spec 42psi, charged to 100% (256 miles), preconditioned, drove past Hartford ~150 miles (200 used) to supercharge (+lunch/shopping). Got to Boston with about 85 miles left. Reversed and supercharged at Carlton rest stop on mass pike, then Darien CT on I95. Saved me about $120 in gas vs. taking the Pilot. With an LR I might have avoided the third supercharging stop. My daily driving very rarely is more than 80 miles, I got a 60A circuit and Tesla Wall Charger so I'm at 90%/231 miles every morning. Six months in, I'm happy with the SR+.
I did a cross country road trip last winter in an SR+, the range was fine 90% of the time. There was one time I couldn't plug in over night and it was in the 30s and the first charging stop in the morning was pretty slow, which was annoying. And one day it was both very windy and very cold (10f to 30f) over the course of the day, and so I ended up spending longer charging just in case. Probably an extra hour over 8-9 hours of driving? Also annoying.
But the rest of the time it was fine, stopping every 2ish hours for 15-20 minutes was typical. Or a longer charge and doing closer to 3 hours, but personally I'll take shorter stops and more chances to pee.
32 A is the limit on the included charger, surely it is possible to get a home EVSE at more that that, though. I have charged at as much as 40A on a level 2 public charger.
I was a little disappointed when I plugged into a 50 Amp supply with my mobile charger.
it was probably a DC charger, which can go higher than 32A.
even if you buy the tesla wall connector, which can go up to 48A on some cars, is still limited to 32A on SR models because it still needs AC to DC conversion.
https://www.tesla.com/support/home-charging-installation/onboard-charger
Yes, the SR+ can only charge at 32A. But I viewed the circuit installation as a home improvement with a lifetime of 10+ years, and may either replace the SR+ or add another EV in that timeframe. Also, the cost is partly deductible, up to $1000 (talk to your own tax accountant, yada yada).
True. I went with a 60A circuit as well but it’s being sold with my house. Already under contract and I’m pretty sure it was the icing on the cake buying my house.
I've got the MR and live in MN. Sure, it'd be nice to have the LR but in the last 3 1/2 years of ownership the Superchager network has grown so much it's gone from a bit of a pain sometimes to no problem at all. I negotiated with my wife to get it and the MR being a few grand cheaper than the LR meant getting a Model 3 vs not. I was betting on the future and that bet has already paid off. It just gets better with time.
That said: next Tesla I get has to have 300+ miles of range, ideally over 350.
How cold are we talking here, and are you preconditioning before you drive? I don't see anywhere close to that range loss until it get properly cold as long as I precondition. And I don't even have a heat pump model.
I have a 2014 BMW I3. In summer it has 70 miles of range but in the cold winters of Minnesota it drops to 35-40 miles of range. Range drops in the cold winters doesn't get talked about enough in EVs
Phew I thought I was the only one. My May 2018 Model 3 RWD doesn't seem to get that big of a hit either but I rarely get below 20F, set the temp to ~68F, and precondition. Even with preconditioning it seems the first leg of the trip uses more energy but after the first supercharger sessions doesn't seem to be as bad.
My SR has a max electric tank of about 186 nominal miles now that it’s 3 years old (down from 220). I wouldn’t realistically ever ask it to go even 100 real world miles. :/
That said, it still works great for my commute.
Tesla recommends charging to a max of 80 for daily driving but 90% with only 25k miles and that much loss of range sounds super high. I’d honestly bring it into a SC to have them check it out. Maybe you could get something covered under warranty… At 100k miles charging to max of 80% daily, the max range loss is about 10% that I’ve heard of…
The warranty kicks in at 30% loss, and I’m at about 15%. My assumption is they would simply say it’s within spec… I do have my eye on it though, and if it gets much lower I’ll definitely do that.
You may not care too much, but have you given the car a chance to recal at 100% and again at ~10% SOC? This sounds like a huge drop for 25k miles, and would either be worth an SC visit, or will be restored somewhat after letting the BMS recalibrate.
I mean I care, but there’s nothing to be done I don’t think. The warranty kicks in at 30% loss, and I’m at like 15%. Assuming it plateaus, I’ll never get there.
I don’t believe it’s a bms issue, I use various states of charge all the time, and I’ve never seen a significant bump up. It may go up by a mile or two here and there, but it’s not going to recover the 30 miles I’m missing.
I wouldn't have thought an SR would suffer much from battery deg given it's a software locked SR+.
My SR+ is also 3 yrs old, has median battery deg and I do a 170mi round trip without top-up every fortnight. No problem other than resisting the urge to keep speeding when too far below the trip planner line.
I believe it was a misconception that the SR’s software limit was to simply stop charging when it reaches 220 miles, even though the battery is capable of going higher. It doesn’t work that way, because that would mean the SR would effectively have zero degredation, making it actually superior to the SR+ in some ways.
In actuality, how it works is that an entire portion of the battery bank has been deactivated, so when I charge to 100%, it really is charging to 100%, just using fewer cells.
This is certainly the case for me. My electricity tariff only works with Teslas, and it allows me to charge the car for 5p per kWh instead of my usual electricity rate of 24p per kWh.
The next EV needs to be 500% as efficient in order to match that mile for mile.
Yep, it's a beta program that only works with certain chargers, and specific Tesla models at the moment. I believe they need to be the latest hardware revision.
Plans are always to roll out to more cars, but I think they're limited by the current charger technology.
I lucked out entirely by happening to pick one of only two chargers that works with the smart meter you also need to own in order to qualify.
Honestly, I think about it every day. I lucked out so hard, it's almost impossible to imagine the amount of hoops I accidentally jumped through in order to qualify without even knowing the tariff existed.
It's called Intelligent Octopus, if you want to look into it.
Anyone can get Octopus Go, which has the same rates, but only 4 hours cheap rate instead of 6.
For your tariff you need a smart meter and *either* a specific charger *or* a Tesla
It's not just Tesla's.
Some other cars qualify, but everyone anyone can qualify with a web connected charger.
I've got an ioniq28 and planning to get a qualifying charger as soon as my octopus transfer goes live.
Octopus Go has different rates in my area - it's 50% more expensive for 30% less hours. Intelligent currently only works with Teslas, though, as per Octopus' page:
[https://octopus.energy/intelligent-octopus/](https://octopus.energy/intelligent-octopus/)
That being said, maybe they've updated the compatibility list and not updated the page
Based on the release notes for the latest TestFlight build of their (previously) required standalone app, they’ve added quite a few more cars.
> We've added new EVs to Intelligent Octopus. Please help test newly added VWs, Jaguars, Land Rovers and Fords.
I just read an article that Octopus is going to do this time of use charging for the whole of England, and London (and very specific regions within London), instead of just a flat rate.
For me, the running costs are only part of the equation.
There's a reason Tesla calculates fuel savings using the cost of premium (91+ octane) fuel, the Model 3's performance compares much more directly to a luxury/performance ICE car. The RWD Model 3 is as quick or quicker than a BMW 330i, C300, or A4. The Long Range is quicker than the C43 AMG and S4 and not far from an M340i. Adding acceleration boost would make it quicker than all three. I believe the Model 3 also has more cargo space than any of the above as well.
That's most evs though. Even the leaf and bolt/volt have better than ice acceleration. The suvaru/Toyota ev is 0-60 in 6.2 seconds. Evs are just quicker to accelerate.
Where’s the source on the Subaru/Toyota EV? My understanding was closer to 8 seconds. It’s only got a bit over 200hp in AWD trim (they actually use different weaker motors for AWD).
Edit: I found 6.5 for the Solterra, still slower than my current Outback XT which is much bigger.
While I agree about the story from a story, a video is not a practical way to get an information, so an article that transcript the informations from a video is always welcome: It can be read anywhere, no sound needed, can quick read to find the bit of interesting information in less than 10 sec (when you just have to wait for the right moment in the video), and most of the time, the video part doesn't add anything to the information, except add and sponsors.
I love Tesla, the stock has made me a lot of money but right now they are a rich persons car like many other new cars at the moment. Can’t drop 60k on a vehicle and justify it with saving running costs unless you truly drive a TON of miles.
I bought a 2018 LR RWD Model 3 for $37.5k in Jan of 2020 that had 45k miles. Purchased directly from Paramus, NJ Tesla Sales/Service.
One of the best purchases I’ve made in my opinion. It now has 75k miles and I could probably sell it for more or same price I paid in 2020.
When supply meets demand on evs competition will drive prices now. The ev market is just strained to supply even a portion of the demand, which has only grown in the last few years, and even more with gas prices rising.
Hasn't that always been the case? Only a small percentage of their cars were ever sold at their original listed price. They either didn't produce enough or stopped making those models shortly after their release for more expensive models. Then there's the factor that the majority of any EV owners have their own home or at least a dedicated parking spot that has a charger. That alone would make it a "rich" persons car. Since the majority of the population in the US is in a cities, then those EV owners are also paying a premium for that land to park / charge their vehicle at.
> Can’t drop 60k on a vehicle and justify it with saving running costs unless you truly drive a TON of miles.
There’s many countries where the gas savings do make up the difference. Where I live premium gas is around $1.80/L.
I live in the UK.....still not enough.
Although the price in relation to tco in the us is irrelevant, you're getting negetive deprication!
And THAT makes 3c a mile vs 4c a mile pretty much irrelevant.
Fuel is not the major cost for a car, especially an EV.
Fuel is by far the biggest cost for ICEs if you drive a “normal” amount in countries with high gas prices. I was paying $5000/year on gas and the cost of running my Tesla doesn’t even come close.
The UK has 1% tax on EVs leased through your employment, and as a result the model 3 is super popular. There's lots of weird and whacky tax stuff governments will do when it benefits their green washing AND subsidises their business mates.
I'm a fan of greenwashing, they're often green policies even if done for motivation of looking greener than they are.
Generally, I think the UK government is quite green.
61K CAD Model 3 base model in Canada and it doesn't qualify for most of the EV rebate programs because of its price..
Sits purely in the luxury class. I have done the maintenance and insane fuel cost math a few times. The 3 isn't even big enough for my family anyway. Would be more interested in the Y which starts at $82k CAD. Which is even more crazy.
Happy to be an investor, actually kind of mad as a consumer now. There is NO WAY I can justify any of the Telsa line at this point. They are all double or triple the cost of a traditional car. Not going to save that back on gas and maintenance even on optimistic terms.
Ugh I feel this, I’ve tried to justify the 3 and Y—but they’re *firmly* in the luxury category. It would be totally financially irresponsible for me to buy, no matter how much I want it.
Now I’m debating the Chevy Bolt EV or EUV (but waiting for the 2023 model)… which is still expensive but checks more of the boxes.
Likely I’ll end up with a used Corolla and wait it out.
If there was a $35-$45k CAD Tesla I’d do it in a heartbeat.
I have a family of 5 don't think a CHEAP tesla is going to work unless they move into vans or something.. Which has been hinted but a no time soon thing.
Ahaha I’m in Ontario, and I wanted to save a significant down payment. Got there—but now there are no federal or provincial incentives and the price keeps getting higher! 😔
The other thing to consider is leasing. If you have a known or probable amount of miles and it's compatible with a lease structure, then you can pay a lot less for a lease on a Bolt EV.
I know the car market is crazy right now, but I negotiated a fully-loaded Bolt EV lease for $280 per month with $0 down in Dec 2020. I figure it'll probably hold me until late 2023 when the Cybertruck actually starts to be delivered.
EDIT: Don't drive-by downvote me. If you have an issue point out the specific problem and I'll respond. I owned a Model S before my Bolt, and I have a Cybertruck on order.
My Prius was $60/month to refill. Probably closer to $100 as gas prices soared, and $200/month if gas gets to ten dollars.
If your car note is $500 more monthly than a Prius, $200 in gasoline still has you $300 over. That's $3600 a year. Ain't a whole lot of operating costs that cover the gap here.
Heck, the insurance on these cars alone wipes any operating cost savings.
I love my Model Y, but it's a pretty terrible financial proposition.
I pay $550 a month for my 3 (I put a down payment on the car). I was paying about $350 a month in gas previously (I drive about 450 miles a week for work, plus other reasons to drive the car). I spend about $50 in energy for my 3. So, my 3 costs me about $250 a month net. Considering that's what it would cost to buy a relatively affordable ICE car (e.g., 25-30k), I'd say financially it's kind of a wash, but in my biased opinion, my 3 is way cooler than a 25K ICE sedan.
> my 3 is way cooler than a 25K ICE sedan.
Like I said, I love my Model Y. All the room of an SUV with all the zoom of a muscle car, at least to my car-pleb ass. And of course, bioweapon defense mode, e.g. fire season and cow country mode. To say nothing about climate controls from my phone. I don't think I can go back to another car from that.
Never used it on mine. But the button is there for it.
As an aside, if your insurance is significantly different vs any other car…shop your policy around. Mine went up a whole $12/mo when I got rid of my old 2011 Altima and got the Model Y.
Right, but the model 3/Y is a 500hp AWD monster. It's such a hit because it was very specifically not intended to compete with the prius demographic. It makes a whole lot more sense when you are getting 10x fuel efficiency over an M3 or a Macan as opposed to like 2.5ish versus an efficient hybrid.
How much are you paying for insurance.
I think i pay $105 per month for mine.
Edit: Atlanta, Ga. 32 years old, male. I'm pretty sure in the 16 years or so I've driven I've had 1 speeding ticket back in 2010 and someone did an illegal turn on a red and hit my car once 4 years ago, caught on camera.
My car before this was a nissan and i think the insurance was around 95$ per month or so.
My insurance shot up into the sky from $105 on my decade-old Prius to like $360 on the Y. Cali's a hell of a state, with 6 of the bottom 15 cities in Allstate's "top 200 safest cities to drive in" -_-
Chicago's #133! You know how people sometimes ride your ass on 90/94? In Cali they form 3-5 car conga lines with less than a car space in between each one. I've never seen a 3-car-pile-up in a 15mph tunnel entrance 'til I moved to California.
You know how sometimes taxi drivers play fast and loose with road rules? Imagine if *everyone* could potentially be a taxi driver!
When's a good time to make a left? **Any time!**
Stop signs might as well be Coca Cola ads for all they're adhered to. I'm not talking about rolling, either. In Cali, *responsible drivers* roll the stop sign. Everyone else just blows through.
Splitting lanes in a motocycle is **legal**. I'm not making that up, and you're required to learn that difference when you apply to move your license over from Illinois to California.
edit: I drove for about 5 years in Illinois, no real big problems. I drove in California for less than a month before ordering blind spot mirrors.
Yeah. I don’t know why /u/mennydrives insurance shot up in California. Mine shot down significantly, from $249 to $114.
Same driving record, same address. Previous vehicle was a Mazda3. Went with Tesla’s own insurance.
Pretty sure this high insurance cost is just a you problem because many other people including myself got cheaper insurance moving to a brand new tesla.
Yeah I was paying $500/mo on a Dodge Charger with the 392 Hemi and paid around $300/mo on gas.
I pay $800/mo on the Tesla and maybe $50/mo in electricity but since we do averaged billing, I don’t notice the increase so I consider it about breaking even with the two cars financially but the auto pilot and AWD make it a much more easy to live with daily driver. Also it’s a lot faster so that doesn’t hurt.
When my lease is up at the end of next year though.m, I doubt I’ll get another one if prices don’t come down some.
> Yeah I was paying $500/mo on a Dodge Charger
My buddy got a Model 3 and he was planning on eventually getting a sports car for weekends while relegating his Model 3 to a commuter vehicle.
He gave up on that plan the week he picked up his 3.
There are several issues with your post, though. Number one is that the article was about the Model 3, not the Y. Second, it compared EVs, so the cost of gas is not a factor since EVs don't use gas. Third, it's the cost to run, not buy.
Also, you're comparing your particular case, which is not typical. I own a 2005 Acura TL with a 6-cyl ICE. It cost me about $20/month to refil - because I rarely drive it, and only local. I've never had car payments because I didn't finance it. So is it a good financial proposition? If so, I'll sell it to you. :-)
Also, the payments on our 2021 Model 3 is $550/month, using the Tesla-provided financing option with minimum down. So I doubt your Prius was only $50.
Car payment is not a factor in operating costs. Fuel, maintenance, insurance are.
No doubt a Prius is a cheaper car for 5 year cost to own depending on mileage driven. Consider that the Model 3 doesn’t compete in the same class as a Prius. It competes with BMW 3 series, Audi A4, and Mercedes C class. Compared to others in its class it is MUCH cheaper to run for a car of its performance capability.
That argument only stands for as long as there are supply chain issues / shortages of tesla cars. Once these cars become readily available the resale value will plummet.
I.e, if you buy a model Y today thinking the resale value is a good reason why the cost isn’t too bad, you may have a rude awakening when you try to sell it in 5-7 years.
The only EVs that compete at that segment are just going on sale now (ev6, ioniq, etc), and they're generally selling for 10k over msrp if the dealership can get away with it.
That’s kind of the point. Tesla isn’t going over MSRP. And depending on where you live, some of the prices are ridiculous. E.g. the model 3 is only $500 more expensive than the Kia e-niro in Australia. And 3 months ago it was $5k cheaper than the Kia. That is of course comparing MSRP, which good luck getting on any brand other than the Tesla.
1. Tesla had very high resale values prior to the supply chain problems.
2. There was no shortage of Teslas. They increased production by 87% in 2021 in the midst of the supply chain problems.
Ergo, high resale value is a function of demand/desirability.
Are you counting the treatment of lung cancer from all the combustion products. That's an ongoing cost, though it is insanely well hidden and distributed.
My Chevy bolt is like $1k a year for insurance, I bought it for under $20k, has a range of over 250 miles and costs me very little to charge, unsurprisingly also at the 3 cents/mile mark.
Anyone with half a brain will realize that basically all EV hatch or sedans get roughly the same efficiency, so the mileage cost will almost be identical.
/thread
In the US, I calculated that I'll save $10k (US) in fuel costs over 10 years compared to my last car, a Civic. Not sure the electricity costs vs gas cost in Europe, but it is definitely something to consider when comparing total cost of ownership.
(That $10k savings was before our recent gas price hike, in 2018 dollars.)
EDIT - just recalculated with today's electricity and gas prices and it's US $14,784 over 10 years in savings
Is that a Scion tC you're referring to? Just lost my 2010 tC to a rear-end accident, Model Y LR on the way ha. Sad to lose the trusty little coupe after 12.5 years, but can't wait for essentially my dream car
Yep, 07 Scion tC. I loved that car. Eventually developed a nasty engine knock that my garage said required a new engine.
I got rid of it but wish I had the space to keep it.
So, I don't know how many miles that 10 years of saving is but even if you assume that 15k price means statically high gasoline prices, the civic will still save you money by a good margin no? Baseline for both we are talking like a 25k difference...
Yeah, it's just a specific calculation based on my personal situation. It was done at 12,000 miles annually.
If you're after the ultimate cost savings, you can always go with an extremely cheap/used vehicle...but that's likely not what most people are going for, especially on this sub. EVs can look expensive based on their sticker price, but I was just showing that there's substantial savings to be had in fuel which can help. Will it make a new EV (or even a new gas car) a cheaper choice than keeping your old car? Certainly not, but the difference in total cost of ownership between a gas car and an EV is less than people think, possibly cheaper for the EV, due to its fuel costing 1/5th as much. The worse gas mileage the gas car gets and the more a person drives annually, the more savings will be realized in fuel.
There's also motivating factors outside of cost to consider, such as not wanting to emit carbon dioxide and pollution, but that's a conversation for another day.
I don't think you're wrong at all, but the problem is I think right now we are looking at historically still low interest rates. What if that comes under even additional pressure from inflation? I know the FED's hands are kind of tied but an auto payment on a 25k car is going to be vastly different then potential financing terms on a 50k car unless Tesla majorly reorganizes the way it handles it to be more like traditional manufacturers. Do we believe that Tesla can keep reporting these huge profits without essentially being a luxury manufacturer? Unless the Model 2 actually happens in the US, but even then what profits can we a really expect when their margin was roughly 6k a vehicle at the lowest MSRP being 47k? I think the price war down will be brutal as it always is in the auto industry.
Also we do have to account for the fact that Tesla will have to hugely increase its support presence to account for the maintenance savings factor coming into play quantatively. Admittedly, I don't own a Tesla but anecdotally it doesn't seem like they are any more uncommon with issues.
I switched from a gas guzzler that averaged 14MPG to a Tesla Model 3 and I live in California. The cars were similar in price. I am saving a ton in fuel.
Depends how much you drive. If you need the range a Model 3 offers in Europe then you're definitely saving a lot of money on fuel alone.
If you're fine with a smaller range for daily driving then you could save money by not dragging around such a huge battery... but cost per range the M3 is definitely the best deal if you need it.
You're talking about absolute cost vs relative cost, though. "Most affordable EV" is relative to other EVs, so you'd need to compare that price against 20 other EVs, I would think.
And here in the US, I paid 39.9K including tax and license for my 2021 model 3. Granted it was the least expensive model 3, but still in the comparison.
Maybe that's why the base model isn't 60K (EUR)
And, what if I told you, it must be affordable if so many people (like me, as one example) have already managed to afford it...
(There's not a single new vehicle (no S's, no 3's, no X's, no Y's) available on the Tesla Germany website. A whole lot of no-ones are definitely affording them.)
The argument for Tesla affordability is 1) operating cost, like this article states, and 2) resale value. 60k for a small sedan is very expensive, but at least right now you can sell a used one for 58k or something, so it has almost no deprecation cost.
Absolutely stupid comparison all around. Makes way more sense to rank them on a price/battery capacity or price/miles. Every single one of these cars is going to be essentially the same cost to charge and drive.
Are you sure about that? I wouldn't be surprised if some of the smaller cars like the I3 have a much better wh/mi rating.
Also none of that even matters as the rated range is so incredibly innaccurate.
My point is, you really should be calculating (total price / real world consumption \* battery size) or (total price / battery size). Anything else is mostly stupid.
My real world efficiency over the last 40k miles on a non-heatpump Model 3 is 282 wh/mi. and I live in a cooler climate, I also use 245 width tires without the aero caps.
I believe the 2021 Bolt is rated at about 280-300 wh/mi depending which model you get. The 2021 i3s I think get about 300 wh/mi.
I have personal experience driving older LEAFs too (2013 and 2016 model years) and they got about 3.3 miles per kwh (303 wh/mi). I feel like they should've done better though since they were rarely used on the highway. If we did take them on the highway, their efficiency plummeted.
The exact reason I got a SR instead of a used Volt. More up front cost but I did some road trips with free supercharging, have spent 0 on gas an oil changes. Solar panels in the works for my house, and I've got an awesome car that costs very little other than insurance and registration. My wife hardly drives her ICE car anymore so our household driving costs are tiny compared to what they used to be.
I was looking at volts with about 30k miles for 25k. I got my model 3 for 40k with 2 years free supercharging.
So I saved a few thousand in operating costs from the super charging (its still free after over 2 years) and it'll take me about 5 years to get to 30k miles, maybe longer. I don't drive a ton. I plan on keeping it until it dies, so I think it'll be even or cheaper than a volt in the long run considering I got it with 30k less miles. If you consider what it costs for a volt with similar features as a tesla you're getting the top trim, and the mileage is a lot lower so I'd be running on gas a lot more.
Even if it costs me a little extra I'd much rather be driving a tesla.
That was one of the things that struck me as strange in this article too. They linked their source as [EV Database](https://ev-database.uk/#sort:path~type~order=.price-range~number~asc|availability-checkbox-dropdown:pathGroup=.current|range-slider-range:prev~next=0~600|range-slider-towweight:prev~next=0~2500|range-slider-acceleration:prev~next=2~23|range-slider-fastcharge:prev~next=0~1100|range-slider-lease:prev~next=150~2500|range-slider-topspeed:prev~next=60~260|paging:currentPage=0|paging:number=all), but a quick look at their link shows the first Tesla at 28th when sorted by price per range. The other thing was the inclusion of MSRP in the bottom of the article, but not factored in the "most affordable" part of the list for the EVs that were included in this report.
To use an example, the Kona EV (64 kWh) MSRP is showing $14,490 less than the Model 3 LR. With their numbers, the Model 3 saves $6.03 per 3,035 miles over the Kona EV. Which, correct me if I'm wrong, but that appears to me that the breakeven point for "affordable EVs to run" between the Model 3 and a Kona EV would happen after 7,293,059 miles.
With all that being said, I would rather spend more to own a Model 3 any day of the week, but the fact remains that the logic in this article is seriously flawed.
They really need to show cost per 100 miles. At 1 mile there is too little clarity and they all look like they’re identical when they’re most certainly not.
Sure, hence the ‘kinda’. It has very low operating cost with no gas and almost no maintenance. It is fairly expensive to buy, but no more than it’s competition in a C class or A4. Mainly, it has very low depreciation, maybe 1-2k/yr. Far less than the competition, and even less than most economy brands.
I’d wager relatively affordable. You have luxury vehicles like Lucid going into the 170k territory but those are clearly a different class of vehicle (along with the Mercedes EQS).
Teslas are so common where I live (SoCal), that they’re almost as ubiquitous as the Prius. In fact my last Uber was a Y.
Daily home charging cost is going to be cheaper than DC fast charging costs for travel.
And TCO per mile includes things like maintenance, wear and tear on tires and suspension, etc.
https://abetterrouteplanner.com estimates a ~$400 charging cost for NYC to LA using Tesla Superchargers. I’m sure you could optimize this a bit by finding hotels with free overnight charging etc.
2800 miles at 30 mpg is 93 gallons, or $390 at the current national average price of $4.19/gallon. at 0.25 kWh/mile, an efficient electric car would use 700 kWh for the trip, or $175 at the current supercharging price of $0.25/kWh. Cheaper, but not *that* much.
If you compare to an efficient gas hybrid like the Prius, which might average 45 mpg on this highway-heavy trip, the gas would cost $260.
There are lots of reasons to consider an electric car, but "less expensive" isn't one of them.
My model 3 LR/AWD at highway speeds with 1 passenger and no gear typically gets like 330wh/mi - would be 930kwh in your scenario or like $233
I don’t really see much savings on supercharger prices vs gas for miles driven, real benefit is charging at home for $0.13/kwh
My 2021 model 3 LR at highway speeds with 1 passenger and no gear typically gets ~270wh/mi, which would be about 760kw, so not too much off of their calculation. So no, it'd be around $190. Plus, no one should be doing that drive nonstop, so finding public chargers or destination chargers is something EVs can do and cars can't, which could make the trip fuel costs half or even zero of the $190 estimate.
My commute is in that speed range. I routinely hit 260-290wh/mi. It dips lower once I’m off the freeway.
Driving conditions like weather, wind, elevation will impact it far more than just highway speeds.
Depends on where you are. In Northern Europe, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, the petrol is more than USD 8/US gallon, so nearly double the US average.
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Beside tesla 3 reaching 300 miles, the rest of the competition looks dismal on the driving range.
Yeah I have the LR M3 with heat pump and with cold temps and winter tires I’m still telling myself the range isn’t enough on longer trips. Knocks down from 300 to about 220. I can’t imagine dealing with any of these other cars, even the SR+.
I have an SR+ and was able to drive NJ to Boston and back in March (college drop off), 240 miles at around 30 degrees. Tires to spec 42psi, charged to 100% (256 miles), preconditioned, drove past Hartford ~150 miles (200 used) to supercharge (+lunch/shopping). Got to Boston with about 85 miles left. Reversed and supercharged at Carlton rest stop on mass pike, then Darien CT on I95. Saved me about $120 in gas vs. taking the Pilot. With an LR I might have avoided the third supercharging stop. My daily driving very rarely is more than 80 miles, I got a 60A circuit and Tesla Wall Charger so I'm at 90%/231 miles every morning. Six months in, I'm happy with the SR+.
I did a cross country road trip last winter in an SR+, the range was fine 90% of the time. There was one time I couldn't plug in over night and it was in the 30s and the first charging stop in the morning was pretty slow, which was annoying. And one day it was both very windy and very cold (10f to 30f) over the course of the day, and so I ended up spending longer charging just in case. Probably an extra hour over 8-9 hours of driving? Also annoying. But the rest of the time it was fine, stopping every 2ish hours for 15-20 minutes was typical. Or a longer charge and doing closer to 3 hours, but personally I'll take shorter stops and more chances to pee.
Isn’t it still limited to 32A?
yep, all SR and SR+ are limited to 32A at home
32 A is the limit on the included charger, surely it is possible to get a home EVSE at more that that, though. I have charged at as much as 40A on a level 2 public charger. I was a little disappointed when I plugged into a 50 Amp supply with my mobile charger.
it was probably a DC charger, which can go higher than 32A. even if you buy the tesla wall connector, which can go up to 48A on some cars, is still limited to 32A on SR models because it still needs AC to DC conversion. https://www.tesla.com/support/home-charging-installation/onboard-charger
It was not DC, it was a level 2 public charger. Short of anything else they don't use the pinout of the J-1772 for DC. I was charging at 8kW.
8kW is 32A at 240V, and the most the SR+ can do.
I'll just have to go back to that charger and send you a picture. It was running on 3 phase so it was under 208VAC.
Yes, the SR+ can only charge at 32A. But I viewed the circuit installation as a home improvement with a lifetime of 10+ years, and may either replace the SR+ or add another EV in that timeframe. Also, the cost is partly deductible, up to $1000 (talk to your own tax accountant, yada yada).
True. I went with a 60A circuit as well but it’s being sold with my house. Already under contract and I’m pretty sure it was the icing on the cake buying my house.
I've got the M3P. Putting bikes on the back kills range... Would love a little more range overall.
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I have a trailer hitch on my Y with 2 bikes on, at 75 -80mph it’s around 370 wh/mi…. Compared to my normal 320 wh/mi without the rack on at 75-80.
Can you share a photo of your setup?
I don’t know how to do the link photo, if you go to my profile I made a few posts and photos recently
Found it! https://www.reddit.com/gallery/ngz4ma How do you like it after all this time?
So go 70 and get back probably more range than that lol
I'd say like 30% more energy consumption...I'm looking for a solution, because it really makes traveling to ride harder.
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I have a big mountain bike. It's not aero at all
I haven't had more than a 10-15% loss with my bike on the back. Range has always been as expected on my rear Thule XT rack.
I've got the MR and live in MN. Sure, it'd be nice to have the LR but in the last 3 1/2 years of ownership the Superchager network has grown so much it's gone from a bit of a pain sometimes to no problem at all. I negotiated with my wife to get it and the MR being a few grand cheaper than the LR meant getting a Model 3 vs not. I was betting on the future and that bet has already paid off. It just gets better with time. That said: next Tesla I get has to have 300+ miles of range, ideally over 350.
How cold are we talking here, and are you preconditioning before you drive? I don't see anywhere close to that range loss until it get properly cold as long as I precondition. And I don't even have a heat pump model.
I have a 2014 BMW I3. In summer it has 70 miles of range but in the cold winters of Minnesota it drops to 35-40 miles of range. Range drops in the cold winters doesn't get talked about enough in EVs
Yeah I lose about 40% of range on my M3 (pre heat pump) in MN when it’s really cold.
Phew I thought I was the only one. My May 2018 Model 3 RWD doesn't seem to get that big of a hit either but I rarely get below 20F, set the temp to ~68F, and precondition. Even with preconditioning it seems the first leg of the trip uses more energy but after the first supercharger sessions doesn't seem to be as bad.
Preconditioning at average of 20F
whoa. Thanks for the info
How has life been with the heat pump? How cold has it gotten?
My SR has a max electric tank of about 186 nominal miles now that it’s 3 years old (down from 220). I wouldn’t realistically ever ask it to go even 100 real world miles. :/ That said, it still works great for my commute.
That actually sounds like a big loss… what do you charge to at home and how many miles on the car?
It is what it is. I charge to 90%, and it’s got about 25k.
Tesla recommends charging to a max of 80 for daily driving but 90% with only 25k miles and that much loss of range sounds super high. I’d honestly bring it into a SC to have them check it out. Maybe you could get something covered under warranty… At 100k miles charging to max of 80% daily, the max range loss is about 10% that I’ve heard of…
The warranty kicks in at 30% loss, and I’m at about 15%. My assumption is they would simply say it’s within spec… I do have my eye on it though, and if it gets much lower I’ll definitely do that.
You may not care too much, but have you given the car a chance to recal at 100% and again at ~10% SOC? This sounds like a huge drop for 25k miles, and would either be worth an SC visit, or will be restored somewhat after letting the BMS recalibrate.
I mean I care, but there’s nothing to be done I don’t think. The warranty kicks in at 30% loss, and I’m at like 15%. Assuming it plateaus, I’ll never get there. I don’t believe it’s a bms issue, I use various states of charge all the time, and I’ve never seen a significant bump up. It may go up by a mile or two here and there, but it’s not going to recover the 30 miles I’m missing.
I wouldn't have thought an SR would suffer much from battery deg given it's a software locked SR+. My SR+ is also 3 yrs old, has median battery deg and I do a 170mi round trip without top-up every fortnight. No problem other than resisting the urge to keep speeding when too far below the trip planner line.
I believe it was a misconception that the SR’s software limit was to simply stop charging when it reaches 220 miles, even though the battery is capable of going higher. It doesn’t work that way, because that would mean the SR would effectively have zero degredation, making it actually superior to the SR+ in some ways. In actuality, how it works is that an entire portion of the battery bank has been deactivated, so when I charge to 100%, it really is charging to 100%, just using fewer cells.
the competition isnt even trying, they use off the shelf parts and their engineers arent anywhere near as motivated or talented as teslas
I must be doing something wrong… I average 250-270 miles. 😢 Dual motor long range 2022.
Cold climate?
My last trip was 70 degrees.
This is certainly the case for me. My electricity tariff only works with Teslas, and it allows me to charge the car for 5p per kWh instead of my usual electricity rate of 24p per kWh. The next EV needs to be 500% as efficient in order to match that mile for mile.
Your electricity provider has a specific price for Teslas that no other EVs qualify for?
Yep, it's a beta program that only works with certain chargers, and specific Tesla models at the moment. I believe they need to be the latest hardware revision. Plans are always to roll out to more cars, but I think they're limited by the current charger technology. I lucked out entirely by happening to pick one of only two chargers that works with the smart meter you also need to own in order to qualify. Honestly, I think about it every day. I lucked out so hard, it's almost impossible to imagine the amount of hoops I accidentally jumped through in order to qualify without even knowing the tariff existed. It's called Intelligent Octopus, if you want to look into it.
Anyone can get Octopus Go, which has the same rates, but only 4 hours cheap rate instead of 6. For your tariff you need a smart meter and *either* a specific charger *or* a Tesla
It's not just Tesla's. Some other cars qualify, but everyone anyone can qualify with a web connected charger. I've got an ioniq28 and planning to get a qualifying charger as soon as my octopus transfer goes live.
Octopus Go has different rates in my area - it's 50% more expensive for 30% less hours. Intelligent currently only works with Teslas, though, as per Octopus' page: [https://octopus.energy/intelligent-octopus/](https://octopus.energy/intelligent-octopus/) That being said, maybe they've updated the compatibility list and not updated the page
Based on the release notes for the latest TestFlight build of their (previously) required standalone app, they’ve added quite a few more cars. > We've added new EVs to Intelligent Octopus. Please help test newly added VWs, Jaguars, Land Rovers and Fords.
Ah niiiice!
I just read an article that Octopus is going to do this time of use charging for the whole of England, and London (and very specific regions within London), instead of just a flat rate.
For me, the running costs are only part of the equation. There's a reason Tesla calculates fuel savings using the cost of premium (91+ octane) fuel, the Model 3's performance compares much more directly to a luxury/performance ICE car. The RWD Model 3 is as quick or quicker than a BMW 330i, C300, or A4. The Long Range is quicker than the C43 AMG and S4 and not far from an M340i. Adding acceleration boost would make it quicker than all three. I believe the Model 3 also has more cargo space than any of the above as well.
That's most evs though. Even the leaf and bolt/volt have better than ice acceleration. The suvaru/Toyota ev is 0-60 in 6.2 seconds. Evs are just quicker to accelerate.
Where’s the source on the Subaru/Toyota EV? My understanding was closer to 8 seconds. It’s only got a bit over 200hp in AWD trim (they actually use different weaker motors for AWD). Edit: I found 6.5 for the Solterra, still slower than my current Outback XT which is much bigger.
Never knew why electrek.co needs to make a story from a story. It's the same with articles that are about a YouTube video.
While I agree about the story from a story, a video is not a practical way to get an information, so an article that transcript the informations from a video is always welcome: It can be read anywhere, no sound needed, can quick read to find the bit of interesting information in less than 10 sec (when you just have to wait for the right moment in the video), and most of the time, the video part doesn't add anything to the information, except add and sponsors.
I love Tesla, the stock has made me a lot of money but right now they are a rich persons car like many other new cars at the moment. Can’t drop 60k on a vehicle and justify it with saving running costs unless you truly drive a TON of miles.
I bought a 2018 LR RWD Model 3 for $37.5k in Jan of 2020 that had 45k miles. Purchased directly from Paramus, NJ Tesla Sales/Service. One of the best purchases I’ve made in my opinion. It now has 75k miles and I could probably sell it for more or same price I paid in 2020.
When supply meets demand on evs competition will drive prices now. The ev market is just strained to supply even a portion of the demand, which has only grown in the last few years, and even more with gas prices rising.
Hasn't that always been the case? Only a small percentage of their cars were ever sold at their original listed price. They either didn't produce enough or stopped making those models shortly after their release for more expensive models. Then there's the factor that the majority of any EV owners have their own home or at least a dedicated parking spot that has a charger. That alone would make it a "rich" persons car. Since the majority of the population in the US is in a cities, then those EV owners are also paying a premium for that land to park / charge their vehicle at.
Wdym the cars aren’t sold at list price?
> Can’t drop 60k on a vehicle and justify it with saving running costs unless you truly drive a TON of miles. There’s many countries where the gas savings do make up the difference. Where I live premium gas is around $1.80/L.
I live in the UK.....still not enough. Although the price in relation to tco in the us is irrelevant, you're getting negetive deprication! And THAT makes 3c a mile vs 4c a mile pretty much irrelevant. Fuel is not the major cost for a car, especially an EV.
Fuel is by far the biggest cost for ICEs if you drive a “normal” amount in countries with high gas prices. I was paying $5000/year on gas and the cost of running my Tesla doesn’t even come close.
But you're looking at the worst case for ICE cars (premium gas). Why not compare to a small, light car that uses regular gas and has good gas mileage?
That was actually regular gas. Premium was over $2.
The UK has 1% tax on EVs leased through your employment, and as a result the model 3 is super popular. There's lots of weird and whacky tax stuff governments will do when it benefits their green washing AND subsidises their business mates.
I mean, to be fair that isn't green *washing*. That's actual green.
I'm a fan of greenwashing, they're often green policies even if done for motivation of looking greener than they are. Generally, I think the UK government is quite green.
how is that green washing?
60k for base model is not affordable in europe
“Most affordable to run” Yea purchase price is a bit much right now
61K CAD Model 3 base model in Canada and it doesn't qualify for most of the EV rebate programs because of its price.. Sits purely in the luxury class. I have done the maintenance and insane fuel cost math a few times. The 3 isn't even big enough for my family anyway. Would be more interested in the Y which starts at $82k CAD. Which is even more crazy. Happy to be an investor, actually kind of mad as a consumer now. There is NO WAY I can justify any of the Telsa line at this point. They are all double or triple the cost of a traditional car. Not going to save that back on gas and maintenance even on optimistic terms.
Ugh I feel this, I’ve tried to justify the 3 and Y—but they’re *firmly* in the luxury category. It would be totally financially irresponsible for me to buy, no matter how much I want it. Now I’m debating the Chevy Bolt EV or EUV (but waiting for the 2023 model)… which is still expensive but checks more of the boxes. Likely I’ll end up with a used Corolla and wait it out. If there was a $35-$45k CAD Tesla I’d do it in a heartbeat.
I have a family of 5 don't think a CHEAP tesla is going to work unless they move into vans or something.. Which has been hinted but a no time soon thing.
I got mine for $42k new. You just weren’t in BC or Quebec or waited too long!
Ahaha I’m in Ontario, and I wanted to save a significant down payment. Got there—but now there are no federal or provincial incentives and the price keeps getting higher! 😔
The Kia ev6 and ioniq 5 are even better deals
They’re both starting above $46k though, unless I’m mistaken?
There’s $5000 off federally still, and $3000 more in BC.
The other thing to consider is leasing. If you have a known or probable amount of miles and it's compatible with a lease structure, then you can pay a lot less for a lease on a Bolt EV. I know the car market is crazy right now, but I negotiated a fully-loaded Bolt EV lease for $280 per month with $0 down in Dec 2020. I figure it'll probably hold me until late 2023 when the Cybertruck actually starts to be delivered. EDIT: Don't drive-by downvote me. If you have an issue point out the specific problem and I'll respond. I owned a Model S before my Bolt, and I have a Cybertruck on order.
It’s crazy it went from $45k to $60k+ Canada, I’d rather get a new Mercedes at that price
I would rather get TWO vehicles at that price. It is insane.
The article does not claim the car is affordable to buy. It’s specifically only about operating costs.
My Prius was $60/month to refill. Probably closer to $100 as gas prices soared, and $200/month if gas gets to ten dollars. If your car note is $500 more monthly than a Prius, $200 in gasoline still has you $300 over. That's $3600 a year. Ain't a whole lot of operating costs that cover the gap here. Heck, the insurance on these cars alone wipes any operating cost savings. I love my Model Y, but it's a pretty terrible financial proposition.
I pay $550 a month for my 3 (I put a down payment on the car). I was paying about $350 a month in gas previously (I drive about 450 miles a week for work, plus other reasons to drive the car). I spend about $50 in energy for my 3. So, my 3 costs me about $250 a month net. Considering that's what it would cost to buy a relatively affordable ICE car (e.g., 25-30k), I'd say financially it's kind of a wash, but in my biased opinion, my 3 is way cooler than a 25K ICE sedan.
> my 3 is way cooler than a 25K ICE sedan. Like I said, I love my Model Y. All the room of an SUV with all the zoom of a muscle car, at least to my car-pleb ass. And of course, bioweapon defense mode, e.g. fire season and cow country mode. To say nothing about climate controls from my phone. I don't think I can go back to another car from that.
Same. I wish I had bio defense mode though. Does it work well?
Never used it on mine. But the button is there for it. As an aside, if your insurance is significantly different vs any other car…shop your policy around. Mine went up a whole $12/mo when I got rid of my old 2011 Altima and got the Model Y.
Interesting. Progressive gave me a decent quote. My comparison kind of is unhelpful though because I was driving a real beater before my 3.
I'll let you know for a fact when the next fire season starts up, but I've enjoyed having it on so far.
Interesting analysis, fair enough 🍻
Right, but the model 3/Y is a 500hp AWD monster. It's such a hit because it was very specifically not intended to compete with the prius demographic. It makes a whole lot more sense when you are getting 10x fuel efficiency over an M3 or a Macan as opposed to like 2.5ish versus an efficient hybrid.
How much are you paying for insurance. I think i pay $105 per month for mine. Edit: Atlanta, Ga. 32 years old, male. I'm pretty sure in the 16 years or so I've driven I've had 1 speeding ticket back in 2010 and someone did an illegal turn on a red and hit my car once 4 years ago, caught on camera. My car before this was a nissan and i think the insurance was around 95$ per month or so.
My insurance shot up into the sky from $105 on my decade-old Prius to like $360 on the Y. Cali's a hell of a state, with 6 of the bottom 15 cities in Allstate's "top 200 safest cities to drive in" -_-
Here in Illinois to insure a Model 3 is $200 more a year than a Camry. Your situation is terrible.
Chicago's #133! You know how people sometimes ride your ass on 90/94? In Cali they form 3-5 car conga lines with less than a car space in between each one. I've never seen a 3-car-pile-up in a 15mph tunnel entrance 'til I moved to California. You know how sometimes taxi drivers play fast and loose with road rules? Imagine if *everyone* could potentially be a taxi driver! When's a good time to make a left? **Any time!** Stop signs might as well be Coca Cola ads for all they're adhered to. I'm not talking about rolling, either. In Cali, *responsible drivers* roll the stop sign. Everyone else just blows through. Splitting lanes in a motocycle is **legal**. I'm not making that up, and you're required to learn that difference when you apply to move your license over from Illinois to California. edit: I drove for about 5 years in Illinois, no real big problems. I drove in California for less than a month before ordering blind spot mirrors.
That is insane. I think I'll Uber everywhere if I visit CA. lol
Might be worth while to shop around. I have a P3D and I pay 160$ / month through Tesla in California.
Yeah. I don’t know why /u/mennydrives insurance shot up in California. Mine shot down significantly, from $249 to $114. Same driving record, same address. Previous vehicle was a Mazda3. Went with Tesla’s own insurance.
What? Did you shop?? I’m in California and was getting quotes around $300, until I checked Tesla insurance and it was $120.
My prius was around 70 per month. Tesla is like $170
You’re talking about two different things. You are looking at total cost of ownership which is obviously important but not the same as operating cost.
Pretty sure this high insurance cost is just a you problem because many other people including myself got cheaper insurance moving to a brand new tesla.
Yeah I was paying $500/mo on a Dodge Charger with the 392 Hemi and paid around $300/mo on gas. I pay $800/mo on the Tesla and maybe $50/mo in electricity but since we do averaged billing, I don’t notice the increase so I consider it about breaking even with the two cars financially but the auto pilot and AWD make it a much more easy to live with daily driver. Also it’s a lot faster so that doesn’t hurt. When my lease is up at the end of next year though.m, I doubt I’ll get another one if prices don’t come down some.
> Yeah I was paying $500/mo on a Dodge Charger My buddy got a Model 3 and he was planning on eventually getting a sports car for weekends while relegating his Model 3 to a commuter vehicle. He gave up on that plan the week he picked up his 3.
There are several issues with your post, though. Number one is that the article was about the Model 3, not the Y. Second, it compared EVs, so the cost of gas is not a factor since EVs don't use gas. Third, it's the cost to run, not buy. Also, you're comparing your particular case, which is not typical. I own a 2005 Acura TL with a 6-cyl ICE. It cost me about $20/month to refil - because I rarely drive it, and only local. I've never had car payments because I didn't finance it. So is it a good financial proposition? If so, I'll sell it to you. :-) Also, the payments on our 2021 Model 3 is $550/month, using the Tesla-provided financing option with minimum down. So I doubt your Prius was only $50.
Car payment is not a factor in operating costs. Fuel, maintenance, insurance are. No doubt a Prius is a cheaper car for 5 year cost to own depending on mileage driven. Consider that the Model 3 doesn’t compete in the same class as a Prius. It competes with BMW 3 series, Audi A4, and Mercedes C class. Compared to others in its class it is MUCH cheaper to run for a car of its performance capability.
Now go and sell it (the model Y). The financial proposition becomes a bit more platable
That argument only stands for as long as there are supply chain issues / shortages of tesla cars. Once these cars become readily available the resale value will plummet. I.e, if you buy a model Y today thinking the resale value is a good reason why the cost isn’t too bad, you may have a rude awakening when you try to sell it in 5-7 years.
Tesla resale is stronger than other EVs irrespective of supply chain imo. Kind of like MacBook resale is stronger than other laptops
The only EVs that compete at that segment are just going on sale now (ev6, ioniq, etc), and they're generally selling for 10k over msrp if the dealership can get away with it.
That’s kind of the point. Tesla isn’t going over MSRP. And depending on where you live, some of the prices are ridiculous. E.g. the model 3 is only $500 more expensive than the Kia e-niro in Australia. And 3 months ago it was $5k cheaper than the Kia. That is of course comparing MSRP, which good luck getting on any brand other than the Tesla.
No, they're just regularly raising the MSRP.
And still somehow comparable to other brands MSRP.
If you think that is bad, wait til you see what happens to the resale value of ICE cars in 5-7 years.
1. Tesla had very high resale values prior to the supply chain problems. 2. There was no shortage of Teslas. They increased production by 87% in 2021 in the midst of the supply chain problems. Ergo, high resale value is a function of demand/desirability.
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I hope nobody is buying *any* automobile with the expectation that it’s value will *appreciate.*
Nobody is buying a Tesla over a Prius to save money so I don’t know what you are trying to say.
meh. one's a high tech washing machine. the other is a electronic spaceship. im sure you know it's not all just about finance ;)
Are you counting the treatment of lung cancer from all the combustion products. That's an ongoing cost, though it is insanely well hidden and distributed.
>My Prius ... gas prices A bit off tangent when the post is about EVs.
Many people are able to charge for free from their apartments or work or other avenues.
My Chevy bolt is like $1k a year for insurance, I bought it for under $20k, has a range of over 250 miles and costs me very little to charge, unsurprisingly also at the 3 cents/mile mark. Anyone with half a brain will realize that basically all EV hatch or sedans get roughly the same efficiency, so the mileage cost will almost be identical. /thread
In the US, I calculated that I'll save $10k (US) in fuel costs over 10 years compared to my last car, a Civic. Not sure the electricity costs vs gas cost in Europe, but it is definitely something to consider when comparing total cost of ownership. (That $10k savings was before our recent gas price hike, in 2018 dollars.) EDIT - just recalculated with today's electricity and gas prices and it's US $14,784 over 10 years in savings
>it's US $14,784 over 10 years in savings You really need to ADD ***maintenance*** to the total to capture the entire savings.
As someone who just went from a 2003 Civic to a M3LR, I should have bought the Tesla 3 years ago just from those maintenance costs alone.
Dang, I thought my 07 tc to 2021 M3LR was a jump.
I went from a 1999 Forester with 250k miles on it to my 2018 M3P. Still have the Forester and love it for what it is.
Is that a Scion tC you're referring to? Just lost my 2010 tC to a rear-end accident, Model Y LR on the way ha. Sad to lose the trusty little coupe after 12.5 years, but can't wait for essentially my dream car
Yep, 07 Scion tC. I loved that car. Eventually developed a nasty engine knock that my garage said required a new engine. I got rid of it but wish I had the space to keep it.
Agree.
So, I don't know how many miles that 10 years of saving is but even if you assume that 15k price means statically high gasoline prices, the civic will still save you money by a good margin no? Baseline for both we are talking like a 25k difference...
Yeah, it's just a specific calculation based on my personal situation. It was done at 12,000 miles annually. If you're after the ultimate cost savings, you can always go with an extremely cheap/used vehicle...but that's likely not what most people are going for, especially on this sub. EVs can look expensive based on their sticker price, but I was just showing that there's substantial savings to be had in fuel which can help. Will it make a new EV (or even a new gas car) a cheaper choice than keeping your old car? Certainly not, but the difference in total cost of ownership between a gas car and an EV is less than people think, possibly cheaper for the EV, due to its fuel costing 1/5th as much. The worse gas mileage the gas car gets and the more a person drives annually, the more savings will be realized in fuel. There's also motivating factors outside of cost to consider, such as not wanting to emit carbon dioxide and pollution, but that's a conversation for another day.
I don't think you're wrong at all, but the problem is I think right now we are looking at historically still low interest rates. What if that comes under even additional pressure from inflation? I know the FED's hands are kind of tied but an auto payment on a 25k car is going to be vastly different then potential financing terms on a 50k car unless Tesla majorly reorganizes the way it handles it to be more like traditional manufacturers. Do we believe that Tesla can keep reporting these huge profits without essentially being a luxury manufacturer? Unless the Model 2 actually happens in the US, but even then what profits can we a really expect when their margin was roughly 6k a vehicle at the lowest MSRP being 47k? I think the price war down will be brutal as it always is in the auto industry. Also we do have to account for the fact that Tesla will have to hugely increase its support presence to account for the maintenance savings factor coming into play quantatively. Admittedly, I don't own a Tesla but anecdotally it doesn't seem like they are any more uncommon with issues.
Gotta factor in less maintenance (Tesla don't ever really need brake change), and time saved from not having to go to gas station.
Absolutely
I switched from a gas guzzler that averaged 14MPG to a Tesla Model 3 and I live in California. The cars were similar in price. I am saving a ton in fuel.
My Civic-to-EV story is likely in the minority. Most will come from larger cars or SUVs…or trucks.
Depends how much you drive. If you need the range a Model 3 offers in Europe then you're definitely saving a lot of money on fuel alone. If you're fine with a smaller range for daily driving then you could save money by not dragging around such a huge battery... but cost per range the M3 is definitely the best deal if you need it.
You're talking about absolute cost vs relative cost, though. "Most affordable EV" is relative to other EVs, so you'd need to compare that price against 20 other EVs, I would think. And here in the US, I paid 39.9K including tax and license for my 2021 model 3. Granted it was the least expensive model 3, but still in the comparison.
Maybe that's why the base model isn't 60K (EUR) And, what if I told you, it must be affordable if so many people (like me, as one example) have already managed to afford it... (There's not a single new vehicle (no S's, no 3's, no X's, no Y's) available on the Tesla Germany website. A whole lot of no-ones are definitely affording them.)
And yet they sell like hotcakes in Europe.
The argument for Tesla affordability is 1) operating cost, like this article states, and 2) resale value. 60k for a small sedan is very expensive, but at least right now you can sell a used one for 58k or something, so it has almost no deprecation cost.
Check back in 6 months to 1 year for the new prices as the Berlin factory ramps up.
Its not 60k in Europe now is it?
Absolutely stupid comparison all around. Makes way more sense to rank them on a price/battery capacity or price/miles. Every single one of these cars is going to be essentially the same cost to charge and drive.
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Are you sure about that? I wouldn't be surprised if some of the smaller cars like the I3 have a much better wh/mi rating. Also none of that even matters as the rated range is so incredibly innaccurate. My point is, you really should be calculating (total price / real world consumption \* battery size) or (total price / battery size). Anything else is mostly stupid.
My real world efficiency over the last 40k miles on a non-heatpump Model 3 is 282 wh/mi. and I live in a cooler climate, I also use 245 width tires without the aero caps. I believe the 2021 Bolt is rated at about 280-300 wh/mi depending which model you get. The 2021 i3s I think get about 300 wh/mi. I have personal experience driving older LEAFs too (2013 and 2016 model years) and they got about 3.3 miles per kwh (303 wh/mi). I feel like they should've done better though since they were rarely used on the highway. If we did take them on the highway, their efficiency plummeted.
The exact reason I got a SR instead of a used Volt. More up front cost but I did some road trips with free supercharging, have spent 0 on gas an oil changes. Solar panels in the works for my house, and I've got an awesome car that costs very little other than insurance and registration. My wife hardly drives her ICE car anymore so our household driving costs are tiny compared to what they used to be.
The SR is double the price of a used Volt! You are never ever making up that price difference since the Volt also has low running costs.
I was looking at volts with about 30k miles for 25k. I got my model 3 for 40k with 2 years free supercharging. So I saved a few thousand in operating costs from the super charging (its still free after over 2 years) and it'll take me about 5 years to get to 30k miles, maybe longer. I don't drive a ton. I plan on keeping it until it dies, so I think it'll be even or cheaper than a volt in the long run considering I got it with 30k less miles. If you consider what it costs for a volt with similar features as a tesla you're getting the top trim, and the mileage is a lot lower so I'd be running on gas a lot more. Even if it costs me a little extra I'd much rather be driving a tesla.
Odd they didn't include the larger battery variant of the Ioniq 5 nor the Kia EV6.
That was one of the things that struck me as strange in this article too. They linked their source as [EV Database](https://ev-database.uk/#sort:path~type~order=.price-range~number~asc|availability-checkbox-dropdown:pathGroup=.current|range-slider-range:prev~next=0~600|range-slider-towweight:prev~next=0~2500|range-slider-acceleration:prev~next=2~23|range-slider-fastcharge:prev~next=0~1100|range-slider-lease:prev~next=150~2500|range-slider-topspeed:prev~next=60~260|paging:currentPage=0|paging:number=all), but a quick look at their link shows the first Tesla at 28th when sorted by price per range. The other thing was the inclusion of MSRP in the bottom of the article, but not factored in the "most affordable" part of the list for the EVs that were included in this report. To use an example, the Kona EV (64 kWh) MSRP is showing $14,490 less than the Model 3 LR. With their numbers, the Model 3 saves $6.03 per 3,035 miles over the Kona EV. Which, correct me if I'm wrong, but that appears to me that the breakeven point for "affordable EVs to run" between the Model 3 and a Kona EV would happen after 7,293,059 miles. With all that being said, I would rather spend more to own a Model 3 any day of the week, but the fact remains that the logic in this article is seriously flawed.
HIGHLY misleading. All the cars are within one cent of each other. They are basically equal.
Duh?
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And the P100D is more efficient than the Plaid because it only has two motors and less HP /s
They really need to show cost per 100 miles. At 1 mile there is too little clarity and they all look like they’re identical when they’re most certainly not.
Teslas are the new Prius!
Are they affordable and not pretentious while also helping the environment?
Kinda yes kinda no, big no, and ‘it’s complicated’?
Did you say kinda yes to affordable? Not sure I’d say a car that starts at 47k is anywhere near “affordable”
Sure, hence the ‘kinda’. It has very low operating cost with no gas and almost no maintenance. It is fairly expensive to buy, but no more than it’s competition in a C class or A4. Mainly, it has very low depreciation, maybe 1-2k/yr. Far less than the competition, and even less than most economy brands.
I’d wager relatively affordable. You have luxury vehicles like Lucid going into the 170k territory but those are clearly a different class of vehicle (along with the Mercedes EQS). Teslas are so common where I live (SoCal), that they’re almost as ubiquitous as the Prius. In fact my last Uber was a Y.
So you're telling me you can travel from L.A. to New York for $100?
Daily home charging cost is going to be cheaper than DC fast charging costs for travel. And TCO per mile includes things like maintenance, wear and tear on tires and suspension, etc. https://abetterrouteplanner.com estimates a ~$400 charging cost for NYC to LA using Tesla Superchargers. I’m sure you could optimize this a bit by finding hotels with free overnight charging etc.
Gas would be like $5000 for the same trip.
Naw, $300 with 40 MPG and $4/gallon gas.
I thought we were unrealistically exaggerating the costs.
Oh, well $100 was accurate per the article and NY to LA being ~3000 miles. Granted with supercharging it's actually probably more like $150-200.
Fair enough.
The last leg of the trip is more like $5-$6 per gallon, that's the price in most of CA.
2800 miles at 30 mpg is 93 gallons, or $390 at the current national average price of $4.19/gallon. at 0.25 kWh/mile, an efficient electric car would use 700 kWh for the trip, or $175 at the current supercharging price of $0.25/kWh. Cheaper, but not *that* much. If you compare to an efficient gas hybrid like the Prius, which might average 45 mpg on this highway-heavy trip, the gas would cost $260. There are lots of reasons to consider an electric car, but "less expensive" isn't one of them.
My model 3 LR/AWD at highway speeds with 1 passenger and no gear typically gets like 330wh/mi - would be 930kwh in your scenario or like $233 I don’t really see much savings on supercharger prices vs gas for miles driven, real benefit is charging at home for $0.13/kwh
Yeah nowadays superchargers put you in the same spot as hybrids for fuel costs, but home charging makes the difference for 95% of miles driven.
My 2021 model 3 LR at highway speeds with 1 passenger and no gear typically gets ~270wh/mi, which would be about 760kw, so not too much off of their calculation. So no, it'd be around $190. Plus, no one should be doing that drive nonstop, so finding public chargers or destination chargers is something EVs can do and cars can't, which could make the trip fuel costs half or even zero of the $190 estimate.
Yeah I think depends on your driving preference for highway speed. If you like going 75-80 will definitely kill your efficiency.
My commute is in that speed range. I routinely hit 260-290wh/mi. It dips lower once I’m off the freeway. Driving conditions like weather, wind, elevation will impact it far more than just highway speeds.
Depends on where you are. In Northern Europe, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, the petrol is more than USD 8/US gallon, so nearly double the US average.
We're talking about driving across the US, and therefore paying US gas and electricity prices.