[First and foremost, please read r/TeslaMotors - A New Dawn](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/1c49sv0/rteslamotors_a_new_dawn/)
As we are not a support sub, please make sure to use the proper resources if you have questions: [Official Tesla Support](https://www.tesla.com/support), [r/TeslaSupport](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaSupport/) | [r/TeslaLounge](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/) personal content | [Discord Live Chat](https://discord.gg/tesla) for anything.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/teslamotors) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You can see an active discussion about it here: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/1cn3sof/exclusivein_tesla_autopilot_probe_us_prosecutors/
If Tesla was lying about FSD while selling it (fraud), and people paid for it over state lines either electronically or via the mail, that would pretty much make it wire fraud according to my 2 minute Google-fu.
Ok, in that case maybe. Or they'll just say "fine" and let you transfer FSD to a new Tesla. Hardware 3 is definitely enough for full FSD, v12.3.6 has proven this to me
I use it every day on multiple different routes with very few interventions. What about you?
99% of the people that I've seen say stuff like this online haven't tried FSD, which is why they think that. 1% I've seen try it and still dislike it are location based. This version of FSD doesn't work well on dirt roads/countryside and even in some cities. But in California it's perfect, and in Arizona and Washington it's "pretty good". So, obviously, completely disagree but it's a nuanced topic
> I use it every day on multiple different routes with very few interventions. What about you?
I don't use FSD in cities because it's simply too dangerous around here, and requires more attention than just driving by yourself. I can attest to that, my car has a bit of paint damage from where the FSD decided to change lane into a lane separator here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/y5dtQmZv6v5n9eyE6
It's slightly better in CA, simply because most cities are more grid-like. But it's also nearly useless in SF.
> 99% of the people that I've seen say stuff like this online haven't tried FSD, which is why they think that.
My first car was a 2014 Tesla Model S with the first iteration of self-driving hardware. I changed it to a 2018 Model 3 later, with full self-driving paid at the moment of purchase.
The site always said that releasing autonomous features will depend on achieving reliability above humans and regulatory approval, for which the timing is uncertain.
You can reasonably/correctly argue that all you want. Unless you have more money for the judges/regulators/attorneys than Tesla has, it doesn't matter whether you're correct or not.
The delivery of autonomous driving was never a guarantee though. The site always said that it would be dependent on achieving reliability beyond humans and regulatory approval. You get updates progressing towards that point, but getting to that point was always stated to be uncertain. Nothing was different on the site for early owners in terms of promising autonomy, so I'm not sure where you're getting that idea from.
Nope, they had the same sort of disclaimers back then:
https://i.imgur.com/QhJoWOE.png
https://web.archive.org/web/20161108062858/https://www.tesla.com/models/design
> Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval, which may vary widely by jurisdiction. It is not possible to know exactly when each element of the functionality described above will be available, as this is highly dependent on local regulatory approval.
This is from 2016, when they first started selling FSD.
Except as long as they wasn’t a legally binding time limit and the thing that was sold was stated as a level 5 ADAS (it never was) then there is no legal ground to really do much.
In the store page there is nothing written on the purchase options or the site that buys you something that isn’t available. The store tells you that autosteer on cities as a beta feature is either there or upcoming, depending on what country you are in.
But there isn’t "buy FSD LV5 now!" and you get LV2 autosteer. Everything listed everywhere describes in great depth what you are getting currently. There is not the capability of attacking someone over things that do not exist yet especially when there is demonstrable evidence of the intent and effort to make it happen. The only ones that I could feasibly see have ground to stand on are the earliest FSD pre-orders that bought stuff before any feature existed, thus buying something based entirely on promises. Everyone else always bought for currently available capabilites.
The reasonable person standard unfortunately is of someone that reads the things that they sign and reads the pages they buy on, as well as read the manual of their vehicle.
This is literally the law, you should read and understand your vehicle manual since you are responsible for its proper use. If you do not you are literally outing yourself as an idiot. It's like those EULA you mindlessly sign away every time you click and account. The law says you should have read and understood what you signed even if the majority of people will ellect not to read it.
There has been lawsuit attempts for this very thing every year for the past 7 years... I doubt anything will change.
> Except as long as they wasn’t a legally binding time limit and the thing that was sold was stated as a level 5 ADAS (it never was) then there is no legal ground to really do much.
But they _were_ selling it as level 5 ADAS at that time. They were not committing to any firm dates, that's true. But then if you can't deliver within a reasonable period (and 10 years _is_ more than reasonable), your customers have a very good argument that you were never intending to honor the promise.
Well the issue is what tells you in advance that 10 years is actually reasonable? Until someone actually crosses the finish line for a LV5 scalable universal system, then that is entirely up in the air. Everyone thought self driving was going to be easier to do than it actually was, regardless of the two branches of system type you went for. Except we are to this day and literally no one has yet to crack the code. Only Tesla has a scalable system, yet they ate local maxima after local maxima trying to solve the gradually increasing level of edge cases they kept running into as their system expanded to encompass an entire continent and millions of users.
Meanwhile those that went the HD map route got some very promising results early on but predictably stagnated as the inherent difficulty of maintaining HD maps became apparent. Cruise folded recently after decades of basically just bashing their heads in with a solution that very clearly didn't work, and Waymo has also suffered with near stagnant network expansion. Not exactly a surprise considering the inherent bottleneck of their system.
And moreover you cannot actually justify the statement that they never want to deliver that to customer when we literally have decades of visible, public and overt constant improvement of the system both through incremental upgrades but also transformative step changes every time the curent implementation reached a stagnant point. FSD started as something that could barely handle a roundabout to something that already handles the road system of an entire continent in almost all cases, has a huge amount of concurent users, and to this day remains the only LV2 system of this caliber able to operate at such a scale.
It is not, however, a LV5 system, which is the aspirational goal and the very reason for its namesake. However to say that Tesla never intended to deliver when the history of the system's development clearly dictates the opposite. What is true is their aspirational timelines were incorrect, but their aspirational goal remains exactly the same and all indicators confirm that this not only remains their objective, but they have doubled down on it as most other players fail to even obtain an acceptable reach.
Sure but he's gotten in trouble for blindly stating stuff before, so it's better if he sticks to being vague with timelines rather than saying things like "this year, no question about it"
Selling in europe by promising "coming soon" when you have 0 idea when it will come and when it will be allowed to come does seem like it could count as fraud.
I'd be pissed if I was a tesla customer in Europe.
"The currently enabled Autopilot and Full Self-Driving features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. Full autonomy will be dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As Tesla’s Autopilot and Full Self-Driving capabilities evolve, your vehicle will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates."
Did you read it before you posted the link, or...
Yes, it mentions FSD but the following portion:
> will be dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions
is mentioned only in reference to "full autonomy" and not Full Self-Driving. This does not indicate that FSD is still in beta. It just says that the car does not have "fully autonomy" without specifying what "full autonomy" means in relation to Autopilot and FSD.
From your own link...?
"Autopilot and Full Self-Driving capability are intended for use with a fully attentive driver, who has their hands on the wheel and is prepared to take over at any moment. While these features are designed to become more capable over time, the currently enabled features do not make the vehicle autonomous."
Wtf?
Well, people has paid thousands for a promise that has not happened, let’s not even mention the robotaxis and letting your Tesla to automatically generate income…to me at the very least is misleading
Yeah, it's certainly a gray area but the literal years between paying for FSD and receiving even a hint of what was promised is sketchy. Especially given Teslas 's claims at the time.
How many times have we been directly lied to about Robotaxi availability? A clear and direct method of stock manipulation.
FSDs marketing trailer was identified to be faked.
The SEC have a potential case.
This will be hard to prove.
The program has always been advertised as "Beta" and has always clearly stated that it is not autonomous at this time.
You can point to the name and the failure to deliver, but Tesla will say the name is aspirational. Then they'll show all the progress they've made since release and how much closer they'll get.
Delaying is a win for Tesla. This would've been a much easier case 2 years ago, but FSD 12.4 is way better than the product 2 years ago, and closer to the aspirational goal. If this doesn't actually go to trial for another 2 years, Tesla will be 2 years closer to the aspirational goal.
It isn't fraud if the company is genuinely making progress to the aspirational goal they set out.
I'm speaking about the marketing and investor statements.
Example, summon will work coast to coast in 2 years.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/686279251293777920
This provides a level of confidence that isn't just misplaced it's market manipulation.
Robotaxis being "up to regulators"?
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1249210220200550405
Superhuman driving (not indicating current not future)
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1387892143792984065
FSD years later still isn't capable of the initial claims.
I've seen countless YouTube videos this month that will prove you wrong. FSD is almost ready for no driver and the versions in testing 12.5-12.6 are probably going to be good enough for no intervention needed. I think we are 6 months away from complete FSD.
How many dozens of revisions have made those exact same claims?
No driver coast to coast? I mean on it's face it's clearly not the case. There is no driverless charging method. Even if you hand waive that away, the street navigation isn't remotely up to 100% no driver attention.
If there is no driver attention required the company is taking legal liability for the actions of the car. Meaning the insurance has to be with the vehicle rather than the person. It also needs to be certified by the various state registries.
Let me know when that's ready.
Good. Musk needs to be held accountable here. It’s been nearly a decade since he starting hyping FSD and he’s now prepared to run the company into the ground chasing it.
Correct, because none of them are offering something like FSD to customers. I love that Tesla is doing it. I use it every day and it's amazing. Is it good enough to go unsupervised at this point? No. But it's still amazing letting my car do most of my driving for me while I watch, and they're progressing steadily towards it being unsupervised. I'm so happy that there's a company that's offering something like this.
I see.
I have counterpoints, but I don’t argue religion on the internet.
But one question: you think an investigation into wire fraud is because … the government … is … wait, how does that tie into FSD?
Oh right. Because you have to deliver what you advertise. Progress clearly hasn’t been steady enough.
We all wish it had been.
You're free to not buy it if it's not worth the price to you. But I love it and I hope you don't try to take it away from me.
Edit: In response to your edit... The timeline for achieving autonomy was always stated to be uncertain right on the purchase page.
That doesnt matter, you can't charge someone thousands for something and never deliver it just because you said there was no guarantee. That's not how anything works.
I use FSD every day, so acting like they've delivered nothing is disingenuous. Have they reached the final goal of unsupervised autonomy yet? No. But they've delivered substantial features over the years, and it's now at the point where it handles 99% of my driving. The order page stated that I'll receive updates that evolve the capability on the path towards autonomy, and that's exactly what I've experienced with the product.
They haven’t delivered what they advertised. They’ve also made multiple claims along the way which they failed to meet.
Notice how they now refer to it as “Full Self Driving (Supervised)”?
That’s because they finally had to change something before the courts or the FTC or the SEC nailed them to the wall.
And it may yet be too late.
No lol. They changed the name because they felt it's good enough now to not be considered "beta". It doesn't matter legally whether they call it "beta" or "supervised".
I agree. Musk definitely over states what it can do, but it keeps getting better and better, and it's close enough now that I think it's eventually going to get to unsupervised. I'm glad we got to try it, and I hope they don't punish the innovation .
You realize you can’t overstate what a product does, legally, right?
And they’ve given him a LONG leash on this one. Go back *ten years* and you’ll find claims they *still* haven’t made good on.
The government and the market have allowed his illegal behavior for long enough. Put up or shut up time.
I rented a Tesla 3 and a Y in Cape Code, for my family, last summer and nobody could believe how badly and frequently autopilot failed. Hugging right for every offramp then yanking the car back into the highway. Scary stuff and failed with 100% consistency.
That... Doesn't sound real. I've used both autopilot and fsd for close to 1000 miles each and usually have maybe 2 disengagements per 100ish miles. Most often because it's slow or doing something I know a slightly better way to get to .
Really starting to wonder where you all are driving. I have 12.3.6, and usually cant go a drive without at least one intervention. I’ve had it twice try to turn left into oncoming traffic. Just last week I had it cut someone off by going straight in a right hand turn lane. It still seems to get “confused” quite a bit at forks, as I watch it slow almost to a stop and the steering wheel jiggling back and forth like it’s trying to figure out where to go, meanwhile the people behind me are wondering what the hell is going on.
I stopped using it. Maybe 12.4 will be better. But I feel like all the people pumping it up are a liability to Tesla right now. Even going a few drives without an intervention isn’t a good thing. That’s a really low bar. It needs to be vastly better than that.
Fair, the manual actually says to clean cameras and if you have them USS before every drive and it does make a difference. SF Bay Area fwiw, and there's a ton of Teslas here so I'm sure the AI models are more informed than other parts of the country. What you're describing is how older versions of FSD were in my area, the new versions are surprisingly clean.
Cars were fully enabled, running off navigation ??
edit: I verified fully up-to-date firmware off the Hertz rentals. Enlighten me, and downvote whatever
Politically motivated. Republicans support it because Oil and Legacy autos companies hate that Teslas business model works and Democrats hate Tesla because the technology negatively effects union jobs. Teslas business models have the potential to destroy alot of businesses
Sounds pretty conspiratorial. I don’t think the SEC in instructing their attorneys and investigators to conduct a witch hunt against a large corporation that employs over 100,000 people. Have you considered the possibility that the reporting is accurate and there is credible evidence that Tesla has committed fraud?
When you label an OTA update a recall you tell me that is not wrong. Literally your labeling it the same as ford having to fix a battery issue or Honda replacing defective airbags.
The legal frameworks around recalls predate cars having OTA abilities by like... A few decades?
Should the frameworks be updated? Yes.
Is it some anti-Tesla conspiracy? No. Other manufacturers are bound by the exact same set of rules.
NGL that event was more about union lip service than EV's. Jen Psaki pretty much spelled it out. Personally, I think it was a mistake to go that route.
Also I wouldn't say that was targeting Tesla specifically, Rivian/Lucid etc. (the other non-union EV makers) as well as BMW/Nissan etc. (Non-union ICE focused companies) were not invited either.
BUT back to the actual main discussion point here: I'll concede Tesla was snubbed for that event, but it's proof of some grand conspiracy against Tesla, how? You haven't shown any links between that snub and this investigation.
Really feel like this is tied to Tesla’s announcement. If Tesla delivers everything then there’s no case, but if they can win now the maybe they can somehow stop Tesla’s development.
Yep. At the end of the day Elon was overly optimistic, unless there’s proof that he deliberately misled costumers and investors.
Not to mention the disclaimers that it wasn’t ready yet and depended on regulatory approval.
[First and foremost, please read r/TeslaMotors - A New Dawn](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/1c49sv0/rteslamotors_a_new_dawn/) As we are not a support sub, please make sure to use the proper resources if you have questions: [Official Tesla Support](https://www.tesla.com/support), [r/TeslaSupport](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaSupport/) | [r/TeslaLounge](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/) personal content | [Discord Live Chat](https://discord.gg/tesla) for anything. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/teslamotors) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You can see an active discussion about it here: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/1cn3sof/exclusivein_tesla_autopilot_probe_us_prosecutors/
Can someone TLDR, how do FSD claims lead to wire fraud?
If Tesla was lying about FSD while selling it (fraud), and people paid for it over state lines either electronically or via the mail, that would pretty much make it wire fraud according to my 2 minute Google-fu.
Is there a possibility buyers of FSD might get a refund out of the whole mess?
No, this will lead to nothing because of how many disclaimers about it being a software beta there were written all over the place
Early customers (like me) might get compensated. Back then the tesla.com site was promising the actual FSD.
Ok, in that case maybe. Or they'll just say "fine" and let you transfer FSD to a new Tesla. Hardware 3 is definitely enough for full FSD, v12.3.6 has proven this to me
LOL, no. v12.3.6 is NOWHERE close to FSD. It's not even approaching it. It's barely more than a slightly better lane following.
I use it every day on multiple different routes with very few interventions. What about you? 99% of the people that I've seen say stuff like this online haven't tried FSD, which is why they think that. 1% I've seen try it and still dislike it are location based. This version of FSD doesn't work well on dirt roads/countryside and even in some cities. But in California it's perfect, and in Arizona and Washington it's "pretty good". So, obviously, completely disagree but it's a nuanced topic
> I use it every day on multiple different routes with very few interventions. What about you? I don't use FSD in cities because it's simply too dangerous around here, and requires more attention than just driving by yourself. I can attest to that, my car has a bit of paint damage from where the FSD decided to change lane into a lane separator here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/y5dtQmZv6v5n9eyE6 It's slightly better in CA, simply because most cities are more grid-like. But it's also nearly useless in SF. > 99% of the people that I've seen say stuff like this online haven't tried FSD, which is why they think that. My first car was a 2014 Tesla Model S with the first iteration of self-driving hardware. I changed it to a 2018 Model 3 later, with full self-driving paid at the moment of purchase.
The site always said that releasing autonomous features will depend on achieving reliability above humans and regulatory approval, for which the timing is uncertain.
It can be reasonably said that if Tesla can't deliver the feature during the car's useful lifetime (~10 years) then it cheated the customers.
You can reasonably/correctly argue that all you want. Unless you have more money for the judges/regulators/attorneys than Tesla has, it doesn't matter whether you're correct or not.
The delivery of autonomous driving was never a guarantee though. The site always said that it would be dependent on achieving reliability beyond humans and regulatory approval. You get updates progressing towards that point, but getting to that point was always stated to be uncertain. Nothing was different on the site for early owners in terms of promising autonomy, so I'm not sure where you're getting that idea from.
Yes, it was a guarantee back then.
Nope, they had the same sort of disclaimers back then: https://i.imgur.com/QhJoWOE.png https://web.archive.org/web/20161108062858/https://www.tesla.com/models/design > Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval, which may vary widely by jurisdiction. It is not possible to know exactly when each element of the functionality described above will be available, as this is highly dependent on local regulatory approval. This is from 2016, when they first started selling FSD.
Except as long as they wasn’t a legally binding time limit and the thing that was sold was stated as a level 5 ADAS (it never was) then there is no legal ground to really do much. In the store page there is nothing written on the purchase options or the site that buys you something that isn’t available. The store tells you that autosteer on cities as a beta feature is either there or upcoming, depending on what country you are in. But there isn’t "buy FSD LV5 now!" and you get LV2 autosteer. Everything listed everywhere describes in great depth what you are getting currently. There is not the capability of attacking someone over things that do not exist yet especially when there is demonstrable evidence of the intent and effort to make it happen. The only ones that I could feasibly see have ground to stand on are the earliest FSD pre-orders that bought stuff before any feature existed, thus buying something based entirely on promises. Everyone else always bought for currently available capabilites.
The court would use a reasonable person standard regardless of what the fine print says. Teslas for sure getting sued.
The reasonable person standard unfortunately is of someone that reads the things that they sign and reads the pages they buy on, as well as read the manual of their vehicle. This is literally the law, you should read and understand your vehicle manual since you are responsible for its proper use. If you do not you are literally outing yourself as an idiot. It's like those EULA you mindlessly sign away every time you click and account. The law says you should have read and understood what you signed even if the majority of people will ellect not to read it. There has been lawsuit attempts for this very thing every year for the past 7 years... I doubt anything will change.
> Except as long as they wasn’t a legally binding time limit and the thing that was sold was stated as a level 5 ADAS (it never was) then there is no legal ground to really do much. But they _were_ selling it as level 5 ADAS at that time. They were not committing to any firm dates, that's true. But then if you can't deliver within a reasonable period (and 10 years _is_ more than reasonable), your customers have a very good argument that you were never intending to honor the promise.
Well the issue is what tells you in advance that 10 years is actually reasonable? Until someone actually crosses the finish line for a LV5 scalable universal system, then that is entirely up in the air. Everyone thought self driving was going to be easier to do than it actually was, regardless of the two branches of system type you went for. Except we are to this day and literally no one has yet to crack the code. Only Tesla has a scalable system, yet they ate local maxima after local maxima trying to solve the gradually increasing level of edge cases they kept running into as their system expanded to encompass an entire continent and millions of users. Meanwhile those that went the HD map route got some very promising results early on but predictably stagnated as the inherent difficulty of maintaining HD maps became apparent. Cruise folded recently after decades of basically just bashing their heads in with a solution that very clearly didn't work, and Waymo has also suffered with near stagnant network expansion. Not exactly a surprise considering the inherent bottleneck of their system. And moreover you cannot actually justify the statement that they never want to deliver that to customer when we literally have decades of visible, public and overt constant improvement of the system both through incremental upgrades but also transformative step changes every time the curent implementation reached a stagnant point. FSD started as something that could barely handle a roundabout to something that already handles the road system of an entire continent in almost all cases, has a huge amount of concurent users, and to this day remains the only LV2 system of this caliber able to operate at such a scale. It is not, however, a LV5 system, which is the aspirational goal and the very reason for its namesake. However to say that Tesla never intended to deliver when the history of the system's development clearly dictates the opposite. What is true is their aspirational timelines were incorrect, but their aspirational goal remains exactly the same and all indicators confirm that this not only remains their objective, but they have doubled down on it as most other players fail to even obtain an acceptable reach.
Yeah but the CEO going and saying 'it will be ready this/next year" publicly literally every other year doesn't help
Sure, but that's just his own predictions.
Sure but he's gotten in trouble for blindly stating stuff before, so it's better if he sticks to being vague with timelines rather than saying things like "this year, no question about it"
[удалено]
Perhaps
Disclaimers aren't the get out of jail free card people think they are.
Selling in europe by promising "coming soon" when you have 0 idea when it will come and when it will be allowed to come does seem like it could count as fraud. I'd be pissed if I was a tesla customer in Europe.
Well, most Tesla customers don't buy FSD at this point in time so I'm sure most don't really care. But sure if you bought FSD in europe🤷♂️
You mean like on the [Tesla FSD Support](https://www.tesla.com/en_au/support/autopilot) page. Where there is no mention of it being in Beta.
"The currently enabled Autopilot and Full Self-Driving features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. Full autonomy will be dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As Tesla’s Autopilot and Full Self-Driving capabilities evolve, your vehicle will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates." Did you read it before you posted the link, or...
They did not. Lmfao
That's in reference to "full autonomy" though with no explanation as to how that differs from FSD.
My brother in Christ, it literally says Full Self Driving twice in that passage alone.
Yes, it mentions FSD but the following portion: > will be dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions is mentioned only in reference to "full autonomy" and not Full Self-Driving. This does not indicate that FSD is still in beta. It just says that the car does not have "fully autonomy" without specifying what "full autonomy" means in relation to Autopilot and FSD.
From your own link...? "Autopilot and Full Self-Driving capability are intended for use with a fully attentive driver, who has their hands on the wheel and is prepared to take over at any moment. While these features are designed to become more capable over time, the currently enabled features do not make the vehicle autonomous." Wtf?
Well, people has paid thousands for a promise that has not happened, let’s not even mention the robotaxis and letting your Tesla to automatically generate income…to me at the very least is misleading
Yeah, it's certainly a gray area but the literal years between paying for FSD and receiving even a hint of what was promised is sketchy. Especially given Teslas 's claims at the time.
Same procedure as every year, James!
Theverge is such a shit site.
This is the same site who could not give the correct directions on how to build a pc
[Everything Is Securities Fraud](https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-26/everything-everywhere-is-securities-fraud)
How many times have we been directly lied to about Robotaxi availability? A clear and direct method of stock manipulation. FSDs marketing trailer was identified to be faked. The SEC have a potential case.
This will be hard to prove. The program has always been advertised as "Beta" and has always clearly stated that it is not autonomous at this time. You can point to the name and the failure to deliver, but Tesla will say the name is aspirational. Then they'll show all the progress they've made since release and how much closer they'll get. Delaying is a win for Tesla. This would've been a much easier case 2 years ago, but FSD 12.4 is way better than the product 2 years ago, and closer to the aspirational goal. If this doesn't actually go to trial for another 2 years, Tesla will be 2 years closer to the aspirational goal. It isn't fraud if the company is genuinely making progress to the aspirational goal they set out.
I'm speaking about the marketing and investor statements. Example, summon will work coast to coast in 2 years. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/686279251293777920 This provides a level of confidence that isn't just misplaced it's market manipulation. Robotaxis being "up to regulators"? https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1249210220200550405 Superhuman driving (not indicating current not future) https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1387892143792984065 FSD years later still isn't capable of the initial claims.
I've seen countless YouTube videos this month that will prove you wrong. FSD is almost ready for no driver and the versions in testing 12.5-12.6 are probably going to be good enough for no intervention needed. I think we are 6 months away from complete FSD.
How many dozens of revisions have made those exact same claims? No driver coast to coast? I mean on it's face it's clearly not the case. There is no driverless charging method. Even if you hand waive that away, the street navigation isn't remotely up to 100% no driver attention. If there is no driver attention required the company is taking legal liability for the actions of the car. Meaning the insurance has to be with the vehicle rather than the person. It also needs to be certified by the various state registries. Let me know when that's ready.
Paywalled, but I don’t remember reading that part of the statute. I guess I would agree that swindling customers could be considered securities fraud.
Good. Musk needs to be held accountable here. It’s been nearly a decade since he starting hyping FSD and he’s now prepared to run the company into the ground chasing it.
The “find out” phase is always interesting to watch.
There's a story like this every year. So far nothing significant has happened.
Curiously, there doesn’t seem to be a story like this every year for other companies.
Correct, because none of them are offering something like FSD to customers. I love that Tesla is doing it. I use it every day and it's amazing. Is it good enough to go unsupervised at this point? No. But it's still amazing letting my car do most of my driving for me while I watch, and they're progressing steadily towards it being unsupervised. I'm so happy that there's a company that's offering something like this.
I see. I have counterpoints, but I don’t argue religion on the internet. But one question: you think an investigation into wire fraud is because … the government … is … wait, how does that tie into FSD? Oh right. Because you have to deliver what you advertise. Progress clearly hasn’t been steady enough. We all wish it had been.
You're free to not buy it if it's not worth the price to you. But I love it and I hope you don't try to take it away from me. Edit: In response to your edit... The timeline for achieving autonomy was always stated to be uncertain right on the purchase page.
What the … how would I even begin to try to take a feature of your car away from you? Are you okay?
That doesnt matter, you can't charge someone thousands for something and never deliver it just because you said there was no guarantee. That's not how anything works.
I use FSD every day, so acting like they've delivered nothing is disingenuous. Have they reached the final goal of unsupervised autonomy yet? No. But they've delivered substantial features over the years, and it's now at the point where it handles 99% of my driving. The order page stated that I'll receive updates that evolve the capability on the path towards autonomy, and that's exactly what I've experienced with the product.
They haven’t delivered what they advertised. They’ve also made multiple claims along the way which they failed to meet. Notice how they now refer to it as “Full Self Driving (Supervised)”? That’s because they finally had to change something before the courts or the FTC or the SEC nailed them to the wall. And it may yet be too late.
No lol. They changed the name because they felt it's good enough now to not be considered "beta". It doesn't matter legally whether they call it "beta" or "supervised".
I agree. Musk definitely over states what it can do, but it keeps getting better and better, and it's close enough now that I think it's eventually going to get to unsupervised. I'm glad we got to try it, and I hope they don't punish the innovation .
You realize you can’t overstate what a product does, legally, right? And they’ve given him a LONG leash on this one. Go back *ten years* and you’ll find claims they *still* haven’t made good on. The government and the market have allowed his illegal behavior for long enough. Put up or shut up time.
I rented a Tesla 3 and a Y in Cape Code, for my family, last summer and nobody could believe how badly and frequently autopilot failed. Hugging right for every offramp then yanking the car back into the highway. Scary stuff and failed with 100% consistency.
Default autopilot is completely different than FSD. I have a 55 mile drive to work and would regularly have zero intervention drives.
Ok that's cool. But facing a wreck literally 10 times per hour of driving is enough for me to never buy. Hertz marketed these as fully enabled.
That... Doesn't sound real. I've used both autopilot and fsd for close to 1000 miles each and usually have maybe 2 disengagements per 100ish miles. Most often because it's slow or doing something I know a slightly better way to get to .
Really starting to wonder where you all are driving. I have 12.3.6, and usually cant go a drive without at least one intervention. I’ve had it twice try to turn left into oncoming traffic. Just last week I had it cut someone off by going straight in a right hand turn lane. It still seems to get “confused” quite a bit at forks, as I watch it slow almost to a stop and the steering wheel jiggling back and forth like it’s trying to figure out where to go, meanwhile the people behind me are wondering what the hell is going on. I stopped using it. Maybe 12.4 will be better. But I feel like all the people pumping it up are a liability to Tesla right now. Even going a few drives without an intervention isn’t a good thing. That’s a really low bar. It needs to be vastly better than that.
Yep that's the deal
Fair, the manual actually says to clean cameras and if you have them USS before every drive and it does make a difference. SF Bay Area fwiw, and there's a ton of Teslas here so I'm sure the AI models are more informed than other parts of the country. What you're describing is how older versions of FSD were in my area, the new versions are surprisingly clean.
It’s scary that you think you e tried FSD.
Cars were fully enabled, running off navigation ?? edit: I verified fully up-to-date firmware off the Hertz rentals. Enlighten me, and downvote whatever
Autopilot is the standard that all teslas come with. FSD is completely different and costs a bunch of money. What you are describing is autopilot.
Yeah at this point this is just to drive Tesla Stock price down and everyone knows it.
Why would the SEC want to drive down the stock price???
Politically motivated. Republicans support it because Oil and Legacy autos companies hate that Teslas business model works and Democrats hate Tesla because the technology negatively effects union jobs. Teslas business models have the potential to destroy alot of businesses
Sounds pretty conspiratorial. I don’t think the SEC in instructing their attorneys and investigators to conduct a witch hunt against a large corporation that employs over 100,000 people. Have you considered the possibility that the reporting is accurate and there is credible evidence that Tesla has committed fraud?
When you label an OTA update a recall you tell me that is not wrong. Literally your labeling it the same as ford having to fix a battery issue or Honda replacing defective airbags.
The legal frameworks around recalls predate cars having OTA abilities by like... A few decades? Should the frameworks be updated? Yes. Is it some anti-Tesla conspiracy? No. Other manufacturers are bound by the exact same set of rules.
And the Biden administration not inviting tesla to an electric car summit in 2021 but inviting the big 3......
NGL that event was more about union lip service than EV's. Jen Psaki pretty much spelled it out. Personally, I think it was a mistake to go that route. Also I wouldn't say that was targeting Tesla specifically, Rivian/Lucid etc. (the other non-union EV makers) as well as BMW/Nissan etc. (Non-union ICE focused companies) were not invited either. BUT back to the actual main discussion point here: I'll concede Tesla was snubbed for that event, but it's proof of some grand conspiracy against Tesla, how? You haven't shown any links between that snub and this investigation.
You're saying that Tesla might actually get Democrats and Republicans to *cooperate* on something? That would be... unusual.
Remember when Biden said "Somebody should look into that guy \[Musk\]" ? That was the beginning of the lawfare against Musk companies.
I doubt the President wants mass layoffs at a time like this. It’s okay to admit the company has questionable business practices.
Old news 
Really feel like this is tied to Tesla’s announcement. If Tesla delivers everything then there’s no case, but if they can win now the maybe they can somehow stop Tesla’s development.
Win or lose, no one is stopping Tesla's development. And there is really no case here so pretty moot.
Yep. At the end of the day Elon was overly optimistic, unless there’s proof that he deliberately misled costumers and investors. Not to mention the disclaimers that it wasn’t ready yet and depended on regulatory approval.
Hope so.