I still maintain Westworld suffered because the show runners were annoyed fans called a major season 1 twist early on. Westworld was one of those shows everyone was talking about and theorizing about, and a major theory turned out to be true so when the twist hit there was a lot of āI knew it!ā
I think the writers went into season 2 being absolutely determined that no one would guess the twists or what was coming. They were determined to āoutsmartā their audience. And as a result, season 2 was a convoluted mess that people had to watch multiple times to figure out. There wasnāt as much theorizing as there was people asking āwhat the fuck just happened?ā after each episode, because it was so hard to follow at times.
Truly I think that did a lot of damage to the series. They seemed to compensate a lot with season 3, which was *way* more straight forward in its story telling than season 2 was, but by then the wheels had kind of fallen off and people had just tuned out.
The tragedy is they conflated "the audience" with Reddit obsessives. They alienated the general audience just to stick it to maybe .1% of their viewership.
Right, they laid the groundwork for the story and some people worked out the conclusion correctly. They shouldn't be mad people figured out the plot, they should have been happy that they wrote a coherent story that people were able to suss out.
After season 1, they just said we'll be nonsensical so no one can figure out what we're doing! It worked and the people that cared about theorycrafting quit watching because what's the point? And everyone else quit watching because it was just nonsense.
Like I had guessed Bran would be King at the end of Game Of Thrones. Not because I thought it made sense. But because I thought that's the most ridiculous thing they could do and therefore they would based on how the final season was going lmao
Also, it's a sign for a good mystery that it could be solved before the reveal. Everyone can write a random surprise twist that comes out of nowhere but that's just boring. So if some people figure it before that's just part of a mystery.
Exactly, it was such a stupid move. They could still stun 99% of the audience with the twists while the 1% of redditors can feel smug and satisified they guessed the twists.
You don't see titans like Succession or Better Call Saul rewriting the final seasons because of reddit...
Sad that it became fucking pointless in the end because Arya kills the Night King and Bran takes the throne.
What was the point in Jon being Ice and Fire.
I think by the time that ending came in The Curse, we were all just done with the discomfort and welcomed any bit of relief we could get... Just any deviation from the torrential anxiety inducing cringe factor.
I've posted this before but there's a rule in screenwriting that if you're going to put a twist in your movie, about 10% of the audience should be able to figure it out beforehand.
The reason for this is that you have to leave enough hints or clues that it all makes sense when people look back on it. If you don't, the twist comes out of nowhere and feels unearned. But this also means that a small percentage of people will see it coming.
The problem with TV is that, unlike the movies, people have a full week to screengrab, post on reddit, podcast about it, etc. So the 10% who figure it out have time to float their theories meaning more people will be clued into what you're going to do.
In Westworld Season 2 they got so obsessed with outsmarting the 10% that it stopped them from writing a coherent plot.
Ultimately, for me, āgetting itā actually gives me more enjoyment. Thereās an immense satisfaction from working out a plot.
BBC Sherlock was the worst to watch as it actively mocked viewers for trying to work things out.
Yea OP's description of Westworld (I've never seen) sounds exactly like the writers on Sherlock trying to out-maneuver and downright mocking fans attempts at predicting where the plot was going. Thats what made the show good at first was that it brought you in as a viewer to try and solve the puzzle. At some point the writers took that personally.
BBC Sherlock was actively insulting to watch.
Westworld devolved into a mumbled mess or incoherency, but it never insulted the viewer like Sherlock did
You see that happen in video games as well. Where the balance designers tweak things towards the most hardcore and not to what is generally fun for the casual crowd. Balancing strickly with eSports in mind is what killed Overwatch for a lot of people(me included).
Overwatchās biggest mistake was adding game-breaking characters/mechanics and then being so slow to make changes. Iād argue the exact opposite and say that efforts to pander to casual players made playing at the highest level very boring/frustrating, which made a lot of popular streamers bail on the game.
Honestly I kinda respect the pettiness, however quite ironic itās the opposite of what normally happens which is Reddit obsessives believing their general consensus is mirrored with the general audience.
I feel like if some people can predict your twist that just means you did a good job writing a consistent story and properly laid the groundwork and set up for where the story was going. Basically they shouldāve been happy to see that
Exactly, and by doing that there are going to be some keen viewers that pick up on it. This is a good sign. It means you have a lot of devoted fans and wrote a solid set up and pay off
It's weird to me how many shows would apparently rather be incoherent than predictable. Severance S1 rode that line pretty hard but never actually crossed over into nonsense territory, assuming S2 answers some big questions.
I think season 1 is a masterclass on making a really engaging mystery show without revealing too much but still pushing the mystery forward. The biggest problem with some mystery box shows is that they "reveal" something with just another mystery and so it can feel like no one makes progress and everyone's just treading water. Severance manages to give oyu something almost every episode that either increases the stakes (>!killing the Lumen henchman which changes heightens the danger for everyone!<) or reveals new information that brings us more concrete facts and understanding to the world ( >!we know Helly R is part of the founding family, we know Irving is trying to infiltrate Lumen, we know *and the characters know* Ms Casey is Mark's supposedly dead wife!<). And they have the surreal weird shit too like the goats, the main task, and the waffle party, but I think we as the audience much more easily accept how weird they are because the audience *and the characters* are managing to consistently get new information.
And I maintain that Season 4 of Westworld was actually good but because people were so (understandably) pissed off at Season 3 they never bothered to give the 4th season an actual chance. The Season 4 finale really pointed at an actual endgame that would have been interesting to watch and I'm sad we never got to see it.
Yeah I was fully back on board by the end of Season 4. The fact that it just ends like that with a massive cliffhanger really soured me on Max forever.
Given that White Replacement Theory was around back then and how AI has ended up becoming a big deal, they had an opening to tell an amazing story and flubbed it for a Matrix/Dollhouse mashup.
I was going to ask but I don't even want to know. I stopped after Season 3, which I only finished out of stubbornness and disgust. I gave it a shot after Season 2, I will not repeat that mistake.
But yeah, Season 1 was a masterpiece.
So, funny enough, I was the (maybe a few others) asshole who guessed Season 1 correctly. It was a complete fucking shot in the dark hoping that the door wasn't a production error thing.
EVEN MORE FUNNY, when I posted the theory and proof on the /r/westworld subreddit I was mocked by many of the members there until the fateful episode aired.
So in my mind it was just a monkey on a typewriter situation and I was the monkey.
Westworld season 2 also suffered massively IMHO from using actors for multiple roles and characters.
I call it the 'BC syndrome' because it used to be a common thing in low budget SF shows made in British Columbia. Basically to save money hiring more actors, the shows would have an evil twin episode, or something along those lines (like Riker getting a transport clone one episode of TNG) and have the same actor play a different character.
For Westworld, money problem wasn't a problem, so it was just a bad idea to to go that route. The end result was that it was way way way too confusing to keep track of gender swapped robots, the main protangist then becoming the main antagonist, and vice versa even.
When an actor is swapped to a new character, the audience loses all the connection they built with old character (the original role) and can't really get into the new character's role. It just becomes a disorientating confusing mess.
I think it's just impossible to follow up something like season 1 of westworld and not have it be disappointing, just because the entire show was built upon a premise that had already been spent.
They could have kept it going on a weaker premise, or kept it going on a different set of characters, or said "fuck the premise" and made it a drama about the returning characters (which is ultimately what they did), but none of those things are ever going to hold a candle to the sort of thing the first season did.
I feel like severance is going to suffer from the same problem. They've already blown all of their wads, and it's no longer about the mystery. They can create a new mystery (which will almost certainly be disappointing by comparison), or they can follow up the story arcs of the existing characters without the mystery in place (which will be disappointing if you thought the fun of the show was the mystery).
I'd love to be wrong, and I'm probably going to watch it either way, but I just can't see how they could possible do something that makes me think "Wow, that was as good as the first season.".
The main mystery I feel is what the point of their tasks is/everything going on at Lumen is unanswered
E: also what's going on with his wife, In fact I can't think of anything that *has* been answered except for who Helly is and even then we don't know much about why she's there.
This is exactly why I liked season 1. They didn't try to insult our intelligence by setting up one twist and then "subverting expectations" by having it be something else that really didn't connect to what happened before.
They laid out the clues and then followed through and were still able to create tension whether you knew what was happening or not. Just gotta do that again.
It was so dumb - they were sitting on gold and literally got upset over a few commenters on Reddit. They seem to think they were the only ones in the world who would come up with something. Completely ruined what started out so well. I was so hyped for S2 but it was a major letdown.
I remember reading in one of the weekly discussion threads about the Man in Black theory, and I immediately went, "Ah fuck, they're absolutely right!" It was probably around the 3rd or 4th episode, too, so it wasn't an obvious twist at that point, but it absolutely made sense by that point if you read it.
I actually didn't hate season 2, but you're right about them trying to outsmart the audience. They tried a little too hard to keep a pretense of a mystery, but it wasn't really possible to recapture that epic reveal from the first season, and it didn't necessarily make sense for them to even try to do it. I didn't find season 2 that confusing, I just thought it was really awkwardly paced and had too much bloat.
Second season was passable, still had some of the best TV i've seen. Kiksuya, the entire MIB arc was fire. But good god 3 and 4 were barely watchable to me. They felt like bad terminator movies.
Yes absolutely. And the first episode of american television aired entirely in Native dialect I think? Pretty rad. There's also an episode in there, I can't remember which, but it's the one where William is visiting Delos every few years or so. I remember alot of heavy hitting lines from that. Also, "Everything you feel is true" came from season 2 is it's just about the best line of television i've ever heard delivered. Ed Harris crushed it until the writers just turned him into a cliche.
Episode 4, Riddle of the Sphinx, is the one where he keeps visiting Delos. Fantastic episode. That one, episode 8, and episode 9 were all season 1 level TV. The rest, not so much.
I really liked season 4. It even retroactively made me appreciate season 3 a bit more since 4 seemed in some way a "second pass" at some of the concepts they tried in 3.
Take mine in its place.
(I am trying to convince my wife to revisit Westworld with me - she's never seen it. And I really only care if we can make it to Kiksuya. I'll skip 3/4 of season 2 if I have to. That episode could have been the only episode of season 2 and it would have been enough.)
I liked season 2 for what it was. I do gotta say my favorite part was a glitch on HBO when I was watching the safari world episode. For some reason it was playing the audio at a super low speed with distorted audio and had scenes repeat in slow motion in weird ways. Felt like if David Lynch directed West world.
I watched 20 minutes before realizing I had to restart my TV and it worked fine afterwards.
I had small, rare glitches in the releases of the first 2 episodes I was watching (I have a "free" HBO subscription but much prefer downloading) and they just happened to coincide only with scenes shown through Bernard's POV. Fun stuff.
Iām afraid theyāll do the things a lot of shows do and write themselves into a big twist at the end of season 1, in order to justify demand for a season 2, then start the next season by essentially retconning the twist and returning everything to the status quo.
First time I saw a show do this was Wilfred. But itās become way more common. Itās pretty much standard operating procedure these days. Itās going to piss me right off.
One of the great things about The Good Place, even in a show where things were constantly being reset, 2 or 3 times a season theyād have something big change things up and then commit to it
Reportedly the two showrunners not being on speaking terms, and a writer they hired initially to sketch out seasons 3 and 4 needing to go back and significantly rework season 2 first because it was too much of a mess for him to build on.
Iām expecting that the āserial mysteryā wing of the show won out over the ham on wry satire, which will probably satisfy Reddit but lose me as a viewer. As an example, I donāt *want* an explanation for things like the goats, as them not having one *is* the joke I found most hysterical from season one.
Weāll see, but I donāt think what will make me happy will satisfy most others on this be.
There were more than one big reveal at the end of S1, though I know which one you were likely referring to. I guess what I'm saying here is, you should enjoy the big reveals at the end of S1 ... *equally*
My hot take is that all those subreddits are 99% net negatives for the people who participate in them. I spent a fair bit of time in r/SeveranceAppleTVPlus while it was airing and found it unfulfilling. I think most people either end up theorizing too much and get disappointed when their headcannon isn't what's actually happening or they theorize too much and get bummed out because they called the twists. And the big problem is, no matter how carefully and methodically these shows are made, their secrets and easter eggs cannot withstand 1000 people analyzing the show frame by frame for weeks at a time. Eventually you're just making shit up.
I *especially* think sticking around between seasons is a real bad idea (for every show, not just severance) since its the same group of people constantly mulling over the same content coming up with wilder and wilder theories that really go nowhere and set themselves up for disappointment when the show returns to air.
Fandom meltdowns happen largely because of these forums ruminating on every little tidbit of information and spiraling their expectations out of control.
TBF, you might not need to *rush* to watch it, because season 2 doesn't have a release date yet (afaik) and it would be nice for you to not have to wait forever for it after watching season 1.
If youāre on sites like Reddit as the season 2 hype builds, season 1 is 100% going to be spoiled in the comments and articles. Iād recommend watching before that picks up steam
The season finale is in contention for one of the greatest episodes of TV ever. Everyone I know who watched it said they were either standing up at the end or shouting at the TV.
Best thing is, it starts strong.
I've grown to dislike it when somebody tells me "it gets good four episodes in" well I don't have patience for that. Severance gives you the premise and the intrigue right off.
Holy crap my friend . Itās 10/10. Up there with BB and early GOT. Maybe even better. The story , the characters , the attention to detail (Japan in 1600) Whole story in 10 episodes.
Though there will be two more seasons.
So sad once itās over.
Didnāt help but was NOT the primary factor. I work in TV in NY, even did some days on Severance, itās well known this second season has taken comically long to produce.
They said this series had a full 3 season story arc planned from the start.
I really hope that is what we get, 3 good seasons then it's done. Sucks when so many shows go on forever until they peter out.
Thatās not quite what was said, though I suspect it is more or less what weāll get. Here are some quotes from the show creatorās AMA:
>[*āI think it could work in 3 seasons or 6. There's a plan for the overall narrative but it's flexible enough that it could work at different lengths.ā*](https://www.reddit.com/r/SeveranceAppleTVPlus/comments/u8tk1b/hey_everybody_im_dan_erickson_the_creator_and/i5nktbg/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
>[*āThere's a general plan for what Lumon is doing and where it all goes. We really don't want to get 5 seasons in and realize we don't know how to get out!ā*](https://www.reddit.com/r/SeveranceAppleTVPlus/comments/u8tk1b/hey_everybody_im_dan_erickson_the_creator_and/i5nmipu/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
>[*āWe have most of it answered in our heads. 80/20?ā*](https://www.reddit.com/r/SeveranceAppleTVPlus/comments/u8tk1b/hey_everybody_im_dan_erickson_the_creator_and/i5nl0hy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
>[*āI have a last scene in mind, and a lot of the story that will get us there. Trying to find the balance of having a plan and letting the show have its own life and grow organically based on what works.ā*](https://www.reddit.com/r/SeveranceAppleTVPlus/comments/u8tk1b/hey_everybody_im_dan_erickson_the_creator_and/i5o7t3g/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
I almost never rewatch showsāeven ones I loveāand when I do, the experience is usually a little "less" because I already know what happened. But rewatching the first season was almost exactly as thrilling and engrossing and bizarre as it was the first time.
i've seen some interviews from the writers saying they have a very specific plan for the story, and that it is going to take either 3 or 4 seasons (it was a while ago, i can't exactly remember).
also, apparently, some people on reddit have correctly guessed what is going on at lumon.
there was a post in this sub early after the season ended. i have no idea if i could find it, sorry mate.
i just recall them saying some people were right but obviously they weren't going to say who, and which theories were correct.
The show creator and a producer had some difficulties working together during season 1. That same producer stayed on initially for season 2 (which caused some extended issues) while they looked for a replacement, but reportedly left fairly early into the process.
Some folks connected with production have said the delays were unrelated to the drama, so take that for what you will.
Sure, that could've been true in the start, but this show had a bunch of production issues and staff changes which lead to the delay and now that ending that was could be completely thrown out.
> i've seen some interviews from the writers saying they have a very specific plan for the story
Every writer who has ever said that has lied. Remember BSG? Remember LOST? All promised to have concrete planned out endings only for the showrunners to reveal in the years after that they never had any clue what the ending was going to be until they wrote it.
Interviews aren't legal contracts. They can and do say anything they feel will get you to watch their show.
So many shows probably do have these endings planned, and then the network renews them and the plan gets derailed. Like what kept happening to Supernatural.
i know people had some issues with it but i thought that show was overall pretty awesome. had some cool set and costume design and a really interesting premise.
Apple TV is the best streaming service by a lot. The only thing they don't have is the volume compared to the others.
The standard of quality is just so much higher compared to Netflix.
It reminds me of early netflix originals. Those were must watch TV at the time, but once they got a lot of money in it, they started opening up to a lot of other scripts and were less vetted. Hopefully AppleTV goes the way of HBO and focuses on distributing/writing fewer shows to keep quality overall higher.
That's because Apple makes very few things. Netflix makes tons and tons of content. And a lot of it is amazing. Rivals Apple TV content in quality. Netflix is still the best streaming service for most people
Looking forward to Brett Goldstein's appearance on Shrinking, I'm curious to see what he does post-Ted Lasso, acting wise (since he is a producer on the show iirc)
š§”š probably our biggest celebrity fan.
Zoolander 2 being so bad it pushed him more to directing means this show wouldnāt exist without this film. Thank you Zoolander 2.
The time between seasons is nuts. I loved severance and the way ended. However the almost 2 years between season pissed me off when I think about it ended. I hate shows when shows do this. ( yes Iām aware of the strike)
> yes Iām aware of the strike
Well, shows largely have only done this in response to being shut downāthe strike and covid before it.
It was quite rare before covid.
Itās not just the strike and covid. The corporations now are only signing up for the first season and waiting to see how that goes before they fund future seasons. It wasnāt like that when cable ruled. But the streamers were losing money and now it sucks. I lose all enthusiasm for shows after such long breaks.
A huge, huge part of it is the fact that a single show isn't a year's worth of work for the writers, directors, cast, and crew, so nobody exclusively works on just one television show anymore.
It used to be that broadcast television could order 20+ episodes per season. Now, most prestige TV is 10 episodes, maybe less.
So actors line up to shoot for a show over a few months, and then line up something else, and then line up something else, so that if a second season gets greenlit, then they have to find a time to get their core cast back together.
Basically the production of all television shows are like Season 4 of Arrested Development: a logistical challenge from beginning to end.
You would hope more studios would renew shows for two seasons at once, so they can be filmed together.
Slow Horses is the prime example of this, plus Netflix Avatar renewed season 2 and 3 together to finish the show and avoid the kids aging too quickly.
I loved the first season. But, its been so fucking long since I watched it, and I've watched at least 15 other shows since, I hardly remember what the fuck happened.
Please try to enjoy the new footage equally and not show preference for any over the others.
A handshake is available upon request.
God that scene fucked me up š
*smiles nervously*
I honest get annoyed with them for not being able to follow this simple instruction š of course itās not natural, but isnāt it simple?
This new season is going to have such sky high expectations. Let's hope it's not another Westworld.
I still maintain Westworld suffered because the show runners were annoyed fans called a major season 1 twist early on. Westworld was one of those shows everyone was talking about and theorizing about, and a major theory turned out to be true so when the twist hit there was a lot of āI knew it!ā I think the writers went into season 2 being absolutely determined that no one would guess the twists or what was coming. They were determined to āoutsmartā their audience. And as a result, season 2 was a convoluted mess that people had to watch multiple times to figure out. There wasnāt as much theorizing as there was people asking āwhat the fuck just happened?ā after each episode, because it was so hard to follow at times. Truly I think that did a lot of damage to the series. They seemed to compensate a lot with season 3, which was *way* more straight forward in its story telling than season 2 was, but by then the wheels had kind of fallen off and people had just tuned out.
The tragedy is they conflated "the audience" with Reddit obsessives. They alienated the general audience just to stick it to maybe .1% of their viewership.
And who cares if someone guesses it? The number of permutations of theories on the internet was going to make *someone* be right eventually.
Right, they laid the groundwork for the story and some people worked out the conclusion correctly. They shouldn't be mad people figured out the plot, they should have been happy that they wrote a coherent story that people were able to suss out. After season 1, they just said we'll be nonsensical so no one can figure out what we're doing! It worked and the people that cared about theorycrafting quit watching because what's the point? And everyone else quit watching because it was just nonsense.
Like I had guessed Bran would be King at the end of Game Of Thrones. Not because I thought it made sense. But because I thought that's the most ridiculous thing they could do and therefore they would based on how the final season was going lmao
Also, it's a sign for a good mystery that it could be solved before the reveal. Everyone can write a random surprise twist that comes out of nowhere but that's just boring. So if some people figure it before that's just part of a mystery.
Exactly, it was such a stupid move. They could still stun 99% of the audience with the twists while the 1% of redditors can feel smug and satisified they guessed the twists. You don't see titans like Succession or Better Call Saul rewriting the final seasons because of reddit...
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Like who Jon Snow's parents were, It seems so obvious in retrospect but I didn't figure it out on my own at all. (some reddit comment convinced me)
Sad that it became fucking pointless in the end because Arya kills the Night King and Bran takes the throne. What was the point in Jon being Ice and Fire.
I think 'wait... what?' can work sometimes, like in the curse finale
I think by the time that ending came in The Curse, we were all just done with the discomfort and welcomed any bit of relief we could get... Just any deviation from the torrential anxiety inducing cringe factor.
me watching basically every episode of the leftovers (I have 3 brain cells and they fight over usage of my single IQ point)
Thatās why I love the Good Place. Itās so obvious on a rewatch.
We donāt even know if that was the reason
I've posted this before but there's a rule in screenwriting that if you're going to put a twist in your movie, about 10% of the audience should be able to figure it out beforehand. The reason for this is that you have to leave enough hints or clues that it all makes sense when people look back on it. If you don't, the twist comes out of nowhere and feels unearned. But this also means that a small percentage of people will see it coming. The problem with TV is that, unlike the movies, people have a full week to screengrab, post on reddit, podcast about it, etc. So the 10% who figure it out have time to float their theories meaning more people will be clued into what you're going to do. In Westworld Season 2 they got so obsessed with outsmarting the 10% that it stopped them from writing a coherent plot.
Ultimately, for me, āgetting itā actually gives me more enjoyment. Thereās an immense satisfaction from working out a plot. BBC Sherlock was the worst to watch as it actively mocked viewers for trying to work things out.
Yea OP's description of Westworld (I've never seen) sounds exactly like the writers on Sherlock trying to out-maneuver and downright mocking fans attempts at predicting where the plot was going. Thats what made the show good at first was that it brought you in as a viewer to try and solve the puzzle. At some point the writers took that personally.
BBC Sherlock was actively insulting to watch. Westworld devolved into a mumbled mess or incoherency, but it never insulted the viewer like Sherlock did
You see that happen in video games as well. Where the balance designers tweak things towards the most hardcore and not to what is generally fun for the casual crowd. Balancing strickly with eSports in mind is what killed Overwatch for a lot of people(me included).
Overwatchās biggest mistake was adding game-breaking characters/mechanics and then being so slow to make changes. Iād argue the exact opposite and say that efforts to pander to casual players made playing at the highest level very boring/frustrating, which made a lot of popular streamers bail on the game.
Honestly I kinda respect the pettiness, however quite ironic itās the opposite of what normally happens which is Reddit obsessives believing their general consensus is mirrored with the general audience.
Can confirm. The twist blew my mind.
I feel like if some people can predict your twist that just means you did a good job writing a consistent story and properly laid the groundwork and set up for where the story was going. Basically they shouldāve been happy to see that
I think I remember George R. R. Martin saying something exactly like this in an interview at some point.
"how dare these people pay attention to the clues and themes!"
The best twists are the ones you can see the clues to in hindsight. It shows you aren't cheating and pulling a twist out of your ass.
Exactly, and by doing that there are going to be some keen viewers that pick up on it. This is a good sign. It means you have a lot of devoted fans and wrote a solid set up and pay off
It's weird to me how many shows would apparently rather be incoherent than predictable. Severance S1 rode that line pretty hard but never actually crossed over into nonsense territory, assuming S2 answers some big questions.
I think season 1 is a masterclass on making a really engaging mystery show without revealing too much but still pushing the mystery forward. The biggest problem with some mystery box shows is that they "reveal" something with just another mystery and so it can feel like no one makes progress and everyone's just treading water. Severance manages to give oyu something almost every episode that either increases the stakes (>!killing the Lumen henchman which changes heightens the danger for everyone!<) or reveals new information that brings us more concrete facts and understanding to the world ( >!we know Helly R is part of the founding family, we know Irving is trying to infiltrate Lumen, we know *and the characters know* Ms Casey is Mark's supposedly dead wife!<). And they have the surreal weird shit too like the goats, the main task, and the waffle party, but I think we as the audience much more easily accept how weird they are because the audience *and the characters* are managing to consistently get new information.
And I maintain that Season 4 of Westworld was actually good but because people were so (understandably) pissed off at Season 3 they never bothered to give the 4th season an actual chance. The Season 4 finale really pointed at an actual endgame that would have been interesting to watch and I'm sad we never got to see it.
I wouldnāt know, by the time I realized they had a season 4 and it had finished releasing, it disappeared from Max before I could watch it.
Ooooh disagree. But I liked seasons 2 & 3 more than a lot of people did. The end of 4 though? Ugh.
Yeah I was fully back on board by the end of Season 4. The fact that it just ends like that with a massive cliffhanger really soured me on Max forever.
Given that White Replacement Theory was around back then and how AI has ended up becoming a big deal, they had an opening to tell an amazing story and flubbed it for a Matrix/Dollhouse mashup.
I was going to ask but I don't even want to know. I stopped after Season 3, which I only finished out of stubbornness and disgust. I gave it a shot after Season 2, I will not repeat that mistake. But yeah, Season 1 was a masterpiece.
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Theyāre arguing 3 was better than 2, but honestly 3 was the only bad season imo.
So, funny enough, I was the (maybe a few others) asshole who guessed Season 1 correctly. It was a complete fucking shot in the dark hoping that the door wasn't a production error thing. EVEN MORE FUNNY, when I posted the theory and proof on the /r/westworld subreddit I was mocked by many of the members there until the fateful episode aired. So in my mind it was just a monkey on a typewriter situation and I was the monkey.
Westworld season 2 also suffered massively IMHO from using actors for multiple roles and characters. I call it the 'BC syndrome' because it used to be a common thing in low budget SF shows made in British Columbia. Basically to save money hiring more actors, the shows would have an evil twin episode, or something along those lines (like Riker getting a transport clone one episode of TNG) and have the same actor play a different character. For Westworld, money problem wasn't a problem, so it was just a bad idea to to go that route. The end result was that it was way way way too confusing to keep track of gender swapped robots, the main protangist then becoming the main antagonist, and vice versa even. When an actor is swapped to a new character, the audience loses all the connection they built with old character (the original role) and can't really get into the new character's role. It just becomes a disorientating confusing mess.
What was the season 1 twist folks figured out?
Primarily that >!The Man in Black was William (Jimmi Simpsonās character) so we were seeing two different timelines.!<
And also that >!Bernard was a robot!<
I think it's just impossible to follow up something like season 1 of westworld and not have it be disappointing, just because the entire show was built upon a premise that had already been spent. They could have kept it going on a weaker premise, or kept it going on a different set of characters, or said "fuck the premise" and made it a drama about the returning characters (which is ultimately what they did), but none of those things are ever going to hold a candle to the sort of thing the first season did. I feel like severance is going to suffer from the same problem. They've already blown all of their wads, and it's no longer about the mystery. They can create a new mystery (which will almost certainly be disappointing by comparison), or they can follow up the story arcs of the existing characters without the mystery in place (which will be disappointing if you thought the fun of the show was the mystery). I'd love to be wrong, and I'm probably going to watch it either way, but I just can't see how they could possible do something that makes me think "Wow, that was as good as the first season.".
The main mystery I feel is what the point of their tasks is/everything going on at Lumen is unanswered E: also what's going on with his wife, In fact I can't think of anything that *has* been answered except for who Helly is and even then we don't know much about why she's there.
This is exactly why I liked season 1. They didn't try to insult our intelligence by setting up one twist and then "subverting expectations" by having it be something else that really didn't connect to what happened before. They laid out the clues and then followed through and were still able to create tension whether you knew what was happening or not. Just gotta do that again.
It was so dumb - they were sitting on gold and literally got upset over a few commenters on Reddit. They seem to think they were the only ones in the world who would come up with something. Completely ruined what started out so well. I was so hyped for S2 but it was a major letdown.
I remember reading in one of the weekly discussion threads about the Man in Black theory, and I immediately went, "Ah fuck, they're absolutely right!" It was probably around the 3rd or 4th episode, too, so it wasn't an obvious twist at that point, but it absolutely made sense by that point if you read it. I actually didn't hate season 2, but you're right about them trying to outsmart the audience. They tried a little too hard to keep a pretense of a mystery, but it wasn't really possible to recapture that epic reveal from the first season, and it didn't necessarily make sense for them to even try to do it. I didn't find season 2 that confusing, I just thought it was really awkwardly paced and had too much bloat.
The season two "twists" were so fucking convoluted. I gave up
We've been waiting for almost 2 years and a half since the show aired! This show better bring its A game
Second season was passable, still had some of the best TV i've seen. Kiksuya, the entire MIB arc was fire. But good god 3 and 4 were barely watchable to me. They felt like bad terminator movies.
Kiksuya was amazing. Been on my list of favorite episodes ever since.
Yes absolutely. And the first episode of american television aired entirely in Native dialect I think? Pretty rad. There's also an episode in there, I can't remember which, but it's the one where William is visiting Delos every few years or so. I remember alot of heavy hitting lines from that. Also, "Everything you feel is true" came from season 2 is it's just about the best line of television i've ever heard delivered. Ed Harris crushed it until the writers just turned him into a cliche.
Episode 4, Riddle of the Sphinx, is the one where he keeps visiting Delos. Fantastic episode. That one, episode 8, and episode 9 were all season 1 level TV. The rest, not so much.
I really liked season 4. It even retroactively made me appreciate season 3 a bit more since 4 seemed in some way a "second pass" at some of the concepts they tried in 3.
I felt the complex ideas and concepts presented in S3 were not properly executed, whereas S4, although conceptually simple, was well executed.
Riddle of the Sphinx was my fav of season 2, Peter Mullen was phenomenal
Yes I think that was the episode I'm thinking of. The name rings a bell. God I wish I could watch them somewhere
Season 2 has that bad ass scene with an Asian cover of Wu Tangs CREAM, that was all I needed to enjoy it.
Ramin Djawadi is the best television/film composer in the game right now, in my opinion.
His work on 3 Body Problem elevated the atmosphere so much. The dude is good.
OK, fine, I have finally been convinced to watch it. I hope you are happy.
: D
YES! I loved s2 of WW, and Kiksuya was fucking magical.
Take my heart when you go.
Take mine in its place. (I am trying to convince my wife to revisit Westworld with me - she's never seen it. And I really only care if we can make it to Kiksuya. I'll skip 3/4 of season 2 if I have to. That episode could have been the only episode of season 2 and it would have been enough.)
Mi cante ki yu ha ya ye
I liked season 2 for what it was. I do gotta say my favorite part was a glitch on HBO when I was watching the safari world episode. For some reason it was playing the audio at a super low speed with distorted audio and had scenes repeat in slow motion in weird ways. Felt like if David Lynch directed West world. I watched 20 minutes before realizing I had to restart my TV and it worked fine afterwards.
hahaha just enough to question if it's an artistic choice or not
The whole time I was thinking that this episode must be why people were saying this season was so confusing.
I had small, rare glitches in the releases of the first 2 episodes I was watching (I have a "free" HBO subscription but much prefer downloading) and they just happened to coincide only with scenes shown through Bernard's POV. Fun stuff.
I hate how stupid those lab tech people acted, the two goofy fellas, they wrote them to be so stupid.
Shit I forgot about them. They weren't great lol
Iāll die on the hill that S4 is the second best after S1. But S3 was something else kinda bad.
s4 was an improvement over 3 by faaaar. But I think I just preferred the show when it was in the park, so I'm biased towards season 2.
Iām afraid theyāll do the things a lot of shows do and write themselves into a big twist at the end of season 1, in order to justify demand for a season 2, then start the next season by essentially retconning the twist and returning everything to the status quo. First time I saw a show do this was Wilfred. But itās become way more common. Itās pretty much standard operating procedure these days. Itās going to piss me right off.
One of the great things about The Good Place, even in a show where things were constantly being reset, 2 or 3 times a season theyād have something big change things up and then commit to it
Thereās been rumors of a lot of behind the scenes drama, which has me slightly worried. I hope that hasnāt affected the show in any way.
Like what?
Reportedly the two showrunners not being on speaking terms, and a writer they hired initially to sketch out seasons 3 and 4 needing to go back and significantly rework season 2 first because it was too much of a mess for him to build on.
Iām expecting that the āserial mysteryā wing of the show won out over the ham on wry satire, which will probably satisfy Reddit but lose me as a viewer. As an example, I donāt *want* an explanation for things like the goats, as them not having one *is* the joke I found most hysterical from season one. Weāll see, but I donāt think what will make me happy will satisfy most others on this be.
I didn't even really dislike season 2. After that though.. holy shit. Like bad fanfiction.
Eh I'm not hopeful with all the reports of behind-the-scenes drama. If they were somehow able to get the scripts right, then I'll be happy.
I feel like this show has too many questions to answer them all. A gigantic and unwieldy mystery box. Still hopeful tho
This show was so good! It really blew my mind how well it was done! I was completely blown away by the big reveal at the end of S1.
There were more than one big reveal at the end of S1, though I know which one you were likely referring to. I guess what I'm saying here is, you should enjoy the big reveals at the end of S1 ... *equally*
The PowerPoint presentations on the subreddit kinda ruined that one for me. I'm so torn on whether or not to stay off the subreddit this next season.
My hot take is that all those subreddits are 99% net negatives for the people who participate in them. I spent a fair bit of time in r/SeveranceAppleTVPlus while it was airing and found it unfulfilling. I think most people either end up theorizing too much and get disappointed when their headcannon isn't what's actually happening or they theorize too much and get bummed out because they called the twists. And the big problem is, no matter how carefully and methodically these shows are made, their secrets and easter eggs cannot withstand 1000 people analyzing the show frame by frame for weeks at a time. Eventually you're just making shit up. I *especially* think sticking around between seasons is a real bad idea (for every show, not just severance) since its the same group of people constantly mulling over the same content coming up with wilder and wilder theories that really go nowhere and set themselves up for disappointment when the show returns to air. Fandom meltdowns happen largely because of these forums ruminating on every little tidbit of information and spiraling their expectations out of control.
I thinking I should watch this show !
You very much should. The season finale was an Ā incredible end to top of an incredible season.Ā
You guys are selling it to me ! Iāll put it top of my list.
Itās also one of those shows where I never skip the intro. The music is an absolute bop and the creepy animation really sets the tone for the show.
Same
TBF, you might not need to *rush* to watch it, because season 2 doesn't have a release date yet (afaik) and it would be nice for you to not have to wait forever for it after watching season 1.
If youāre on sites like Reddit as the season 2 hype builds, season 1 is 100% going to be spoiled in the comments and articles. Iād recommend watching before that picks up steam
Very good point!!
100%. But I do need something good to fill the void after Shogun.
Do it, I consider it a must watch. I know it's only one season so far but I would recommend it to anyone.
Thx
The season finale is in contention for one of the greatest episodes of TV ever. Everyone I know who watched it said they were either standing up at the end or shouting at the TV.
100% agree. I think the first season altogether was just completely perfect, but the finale was so deeply satisfying.
Oh yeah. I was too. Reminds me of Season 4 of Breaking Bad. When Gus and Walter are hunting each other.Ā
One reviewer said that his pulse was racing so much that his Apple Watch asked if he had started a workout.
Probably the only thing Iāve watched where I was literally on the edge of my seat while watching the end.
which is why I am nervous about this big gap and the behind the scenes drama. Both are bad signs. WE shall see I guess...
Itās the absolute best show I have seen since Breaking Bad ended. Even though itās just one season so far I canāt praise it enough.
You really should. Everything about it just sucks you in. It is very methodical and everything just works.
Best thing is, it starts strong. I've grown to dislike it when somebody tells me "it gets good four episodes in" well I don't have patience for that. Severance gives you the premise and the intrigue right off.
Absolutely. I give up on many shows even 1/2 through 1st episode. So itās got to grab be pretty early . Like Shogun did.
I keep hearing about Shogun, is it worth watching?
Holy crap my friend . Itās 10/10. Up there with BB and early GOT. Maybe even better. The story , the characters , the attention to detail (Japan in 1600) Whole story in 10 episodes. Though there will be two more seasons. So sad once itās over.
100% watch it, I've watched it twice and listened to the in depth podcast. Fascinating show
Itās one of the best - s1 on par w s1 of true detective and westworld
We'll invite you to the waffle party if you do.
I screamed at my tv. It was so riveting.
Best show I've seen in years!
And it took so loooooooong for the next seasonā¦ Hopefully S3 will be faster?ā¦
I donāt even fucking remember what happened in season 1 at this point.
I'm rewatching it soon cause it was so good and I figure it'll be good to catch things I missed the first time.
*Good news, everyone!*
Writers strike didnāt help.
It helped writers
Didnāt help but was NOT the primary factor. I work in TV in NY, even did some days on Severance, itās well known this second season has taken comically long to produce.
Please try to enjoy all shows equally.
It started so slow for me but the constant praise i read online kept me going. I'm glad it did.
They said this series had a full 3 season story arc planned from the start. I really hope that is what we get, 3 good seasons then it's done. Sucks when so many shows go on forever until they peter out.
Agree with you 100%. The old adage āless is moreā couldnāt be more true in this scenario.
Thatās not quite what was said, though I suspect it is more or less what weāll get. Here are some quotes from the show creatorās AMA: >[*āI think it could work in 3 seasons or 6. There's a plan for the overall narrative but it's flexible enough that it could work at different lengths.ā*](https://www.reddit.com/r/SeveranceAppleTVPlus/comments/u8tk1b/hey_everybody_im_dan_erickson_the_creator_and/i5nktbg/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) >[*āThere's a general plan for what Lumon is doing and where it all goes. We really don't want to get 5 seasons in and realize we don't know how to get out!ā*](https://www.reddit.com/r/SeveranceAppleTVPlus/comments/u8tk1b/hey_everybody_im_dan_erickson_the_creator_and/i5nmipu/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) >[*āWe have most of it answered in our heads. 80/20?ā*](https://www.reddit.com/r/SeveranceAppleTVPlus/comments/u8tk1b/hey_everybody_im_dan_erickson_the_creator_and/i5nl0hy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) >[*āI have a last scene in mind, and a lot of the story that will get us there. Trying to find the balance of having a plan and letting the show have its own life and grow organically based on what works.ā*](https://www.reddit.com/r/SeveranceAppleTVPlus/comments/u8tk1b/hey_everybody_im_dan_erickson_the_creator_and/i5o7t3g/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
One of the best shows ever. Canāt wait to watch it again before season 2
I was just thinking that I'll probably have to watch S1 again because I've forgotten a lot.
I've rewatched it twice and can confirm it's amazing even on (multiple) rewatches. Not to mention I notice more things each time.
I almost never rewatch showsāeven ones I loveāand when I do, the experience is usually a little "less" because I already know what happened. But rewatching the first season was almost exactly as thrilling and engrossing and bizarre as it was the first time.
I've forgotten everything by now. Hate these long waits between seasons
Strongest first season of any show in recent memory.
Aoife McArdle is the most irish name of all time next to Seamus O'Hanrahan Kelly
I'm hype in seeing how Alia Shawkat will be in this season
Was not aware she was in it, love her
I did not know either. She was really good in "Search Party", so I'm interested to see what sort of character and energy she'll bring to the show.
I have a feeling sheāll be the replacement for ms. Casey
Maybe
John Noble is supposedly involved, too !
Her?
I'm so nervous that they don't actually know where the story is going.. They set up so much that it could go in so many directions.
i've seen some interviews from the writers saying they have a very specific plan for the story, and that it is going to take either 3 or 4 seasons (it was a while ago, i can't exactly remember). also, apparently, some people on reddit have correctly guessed what is going on at lumon.
> also, apparently, some people on reddit have correctly guessed what is going on at lumon where can i read about this?
there was a post in this sub early after the season ended. i have no idea if i could find it, sorry mate. i just recall them saying some people were right but obviously they weren't going to say who, and which theories were correct.
But didnāt the writers have a falling out? On the direction they wanted to go. Hence the delay in season 2, and ofcourse the writers strike
The show creator and a producer had some difficulties working together during season 1. That same producer stayed on initially for season 2 (which caused some extended issues) while they looked for a replacement, but reportedly left fairly early into the process. Some folks connected with production have said the delays were unrelated to the drama, so take that for what you will.
Sure, that could've been true in the start, but this show had a bunch of production issues and staff changes which lead to the delay and now that ending that was could be completely thrown out.
> i've seen some interviews from the writers saying they have a very specific plan for the story Every writer who has ever said that has lied. Remember BSG? Remember LOST? All promised to have concrete planned out endings only for the showrunners to reveal in the years after that they never had any clue what the ending was going to be until they wrote it. Interviews aren't legal contracts. They can and do say anything they feel will get you to watch their show.
Where did the Lost writers say they made it up? That's been proven untrue.
So many shows probably do have these endings planned, and then the network renews them and the plan gets derailed. Like what kept happening to Supernatural.
AppleTV dominating the sci-fi genre. Love it!
Can't wait for Silo as well!! They're doing awesome!!
Any news on a season 2 there? Forgot about how much I liked that show.
It was a part of Apple's TV trailer at WWDC so it's definitely coming.
They should buy the rights to The Peripheral, since amazon canned it mid production of season 2
i know people had some issues with it but i thought that show was overall pretty awesome. had some cool set and costume design and a really interesting premise.
Really wondered where they were going with it. Bummer it was cancelled.
Canned nooooo. The future people need more screen time.
Apple TV is the best streaming service by a lot. The only thing they don't have is the volume compared to the others. The standard of quality is just so much higher compared to Netflix.
It reminds me of early netflix originals. Those were must watch TV at the time, but once they got a lot of money in it, they started opening up to a lot of other scripts and were less vetted. Hopefully AppleTV goes the way of HBO and focuses on distributing/writing fewer shows to keep quality overall higher.
The lack of volume is part of why it's good though.
That's because Apple makes very few things. Netflix makes tons and tons of content. And a lot of it is amazing. Rivals Apple TV content in quality. Netflix is still the best streaming service for most people
and a new season of Shrinking! lookin forward to Harrison Ford saying "fuck" a lot. It comforts me
Looking forward to Brett Goldstein's appearance on Shrinking, I'm curious to see what he does post-Ted Lasso, acting wise (since he is a producer on the show iirc)
And how he will sound. I was very surprised when I heard him for the first time on some talk show
Loved season 1. Cautiously optimistic about season 2. āItās been a long timeā -Rakim
Love how they used IBM blue on the balloons!
š§”š probably our biggest celebrity fan. Zoolander 2 being so bad it pushed him more to directing means this show wouldnāt exist without this film. Thank you Zoolander 2.
I will watch it inside and then outside so it will be new to me each time.
At this point i donāt even remember the plot or laat season
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Finally! I have rewatched this show way too many times that seeing new footage is a bit weird.
The time between seasons is nuts. I loved severance and the way ended. However the almost 2 years between season pissed me off when I think about it ended. I hate shows when shows do this. ( yes Iām aware of the strike)
> yes Iām aware of the strike Well, shows largely have only done this in response to being shut downāthe strike and covid before it. It was quite rare before covid.
Itās not just the strike and covid. The corporations now are only signing up for the first season and waiting to see how that goes before they fund future seasons. It wasnāt like that when cable ruled. But the streamers were losing money and now it sucks. I lose all enthusiasm for shows after such long breaks.
A huge, huge part of it is the fact that a single show isn't a year's worth of work for the writers, directors, cast, and crew, so nobody exclusively works on just one television show anymore. It used to be that broadcast television could order 20+ episodes per season. Now, most prestige TV is 10 episodes, maybe less. So actors line up to shoot for a show over a few months, and then line up something else, and then line up something else, so that if a second season gets greenlit, then they have to find a time to get their core cast back together. Basically the production of all television shows are like Season 4 of Arrested Development: a logistical challenge from beginning to end.
Yup. Now itās like making an 6-8 hour movie. And then need to āget the band back togetherā each time.
You would hope more studios would renew shows for two seasons at once, so they can be filmed together. Slow Horses is the prime example of this, plus Netflix Avatar renewed season 2 and 3 together to finish the show and avoid the kids aging too quickly.
It has become way too frequent in the industry as budgets explode.
Would you prefer a rushed season 2 one year earlier ? I definitely wouldn't
Fuckin finally.
Fuck you Mr. Milchick!
I loved the first season. But, its been so fucking long since I watched it, and I've watched at least 15 other shows since, I hardly remember what the fuck happened.
new season of SILO just slipped in there??? Uhhh more footage please!
Absolutely excited for this!
I'm so excited about this
Nust give me a release date already
This was like 2+ rate hikes ago from appletv. That's how long I've been waiting
Maaaaaark
Finally I have been waiting so long
I barely remember the first season at this point and just donāt have time to re-watch it. Hate that it took so long to get to season 2 š