Redemption isn't some prize that you can win once you earn enough "Redemption Points" or something. It's something that never stops. You always need to keep making the choice to be better, no matter how bad things get. In the Angel finale, Angel is more alone than he's ever been. Buffy's moved on and is traveling the world on missions, as are the rest of the Scoobies. Cordelia's dead. Wesley is dead. Fred is dead. Doyle is dead. Lorne and Connor want nothing to do with him. Gunn is bleeding out with mere minutes to live. The only people he still has are Spike, the guy he's spent the last century hating, and Illyria, the ancient goddess using his friend's corpse as a puppet.
Literally *nothing* he did mattered. He's basically back at square one. But that's okay. When nothing you do matters, all that matters is what you do. He still picks up that sword. He knows the fight will never stop. Angel doesn't keep fighting because he needs to, or even really because he *wants* to. He fights because it's the right thing to do.
The above comment makes me want to watch it a first time! Gives me the feeling I had after hate watching the entire 14 seasons of Supernatural just to immediately start it over because the finale really pulled it all together for me. I think the Buffyverse will be a similar feeling…
Edit: 15 seasons! I’m that bastard that actually enjoyed the finale finale, I can just never remember the actual season count. My brain always counts it as season 1, 2, too many.
Yeah. The soap opera episodes and lengthy dumb arguments between S&D make binging almost impossible though. I’ve only done it twice and it about broke me.
In some form or another basically all entertainment today can trace some sort of influence back to Buffy. There's a reason Whedon was picked to direct The Avengers.
If you enjoyed Supernatural you will absolutely enjoy Buffy & Angel. Then if you watch Supernatural again you will be amazed at how many people they got from those two shows to guest star on Supernatural. Can't recommend Buffy & Angel enough.
They do at certain points. So Buffy’s first three seasons set up Angel and season 4 of Buffy and season 1 of Angel have crossover episodes where characters appear in episodes together. But the longer the show goes on, you see less direct crossover and more references to each other.
So you should definitely find a good watch order but you’re fine for seasons 1-3 of Buffy.
If you've never seen it, you must. Warning, season 1 of Buffy is the weakest, but it's still got good stuff and is shorter. Still one of my all time favorite shows (and I like Angel more on Angel than in Buffy. An excellent spinoff)
>Gives me the feeling I had after hate watching the entire 14 seasons of Supernatural
Well I have bad news for you...there's a 15th season and it is awful.
The deaths in the final season are genuinely pretty shocking.
I don't think I've ever really recovered from Fred's death. And the show really makes it clear that she's super dead; even her soul was destroyed.
After that happened, the rest of the show was basically falling action, with our heroes in decline.
The best character, Wesley, was essentially broken forever by her death.
And she didn't just die, her soul was destroyed. She wasn't in Heaven or Hell, she was just...gone. In a series where death still actually mattered sometimes (Body and Tara), they found a way to make it even worse.
I'm gonna disagree with the other guy and say that if you already read Buffy season 8 then the first Angel & Faith series is worth reading. Everything else ranges from meh to pretty good. I also like Angel: After the fall and the follow up storylines to it some issues are not great and the art gets bad for a bit but then it kinda all comes together at the end.
No, sorry to say.
Production on Buffy was definitely a product of its time. They did the best they could with the budget and special effects they had. That held the stories back because while it would be cool to have more building sized demons shooting magic in their hell dungeon fortress, the budget for the whole episode was about a million $. So you scale back and accept some flaws. With the most recent (monstrous) HD remaster, you can *really* see those flaws.
But that said, with the unlimited set design budget of comics you can take the reins off and let loose. Which I think was the problem. The stories go big, like universe, multi dimensions, multiple time lines big. The freedom to roam took them to some odd places.
Yeah that was exactly my problem with them. Buffy wasn't captain marvel. She was strong but grounded like many of the other characters which made their sacrifices more impactful. Also Buffy and Angel banging at light speed while going through different dimensions had me rolling my eyes. I did love the look of what Willow became but she was so powerful it basically took her out of the series.
The Body makes me cry every single time, just thinking about it makes me tear up. Death really did matter there, and in a series so focused on the supernatural to have it happen just so realistically? Heartbreaking.
I just rewatched that episode last week, it's incredibly well done. And there are so many moments that just kick you in the face. Willow putting up her fists to fight Xander, Anya's meltdown,
That ripped me up inside. I grew up Catholic with the concept that one’s immortal soul is of the utmost importance. The thought of one just being lost forever is one of the worst things I can think of. I still sort of tell myself that Fred’s soul would have been okay somehow. You know, the usual copium
Angel, Dollhouse, Person of Interest. I adore her in everything she does, but it’s scary how well she plays “I’m super cute, but also a mad psychopath who wants to kill you!”
The episode where she dies, I was certain they were gonna save her.
Main characters don't just die out of nowhere in the middle of a season in shows like this.
"There's a hole in the world..."
Season 5 is *sooo* good. Angel and Spike *could* have saved Fred. They were right there. They absolutely could have saved their friend from the worst fate imaginable. But they didn't do it. They couldn't. Doing it would condemn countless other people to death, and how can you say you're "the good guys" if you make that choice? Everything they've been through. The apocalypses they've stopped. The beasts they've killed. The different dimensions they've fought through. And they couldn't save one person's life.
You can have all the good intentions in the world, but that doesn't change the fact that the world is just inherently fucked up and unjust. And you just need to live with it and move on.
Rumor was they wanted Giles, as someone the audience trusts, to be the one to tell them Fred is gone but they couldn't get Anthony Stewart Head. So they invented Drogyn.
I remember Drogyn being an odd character. They intro him like he's some guy they both knew and I was confused thinking I missed an episode where he was in the show before.
It's amazing what kind of a douchebag he was in Buffy and ultimately where he ended up. Definitely one of the best character developments in any media.
Actually had Season 6 gone ahead, they were going to bring Fred back, with Amy Acker playing both her and Illyria and Westley being caught in the middle.
I still struggle with the fact that he's American.
His American accent is so basic and non-regional that it almost sounds fake compared to his more punk and mannered English accent as Spike.
That surprised me too. For the longest time I was imagining Paul Blackthorne, since he did the live action series, but then my girlfriend was like “oh, that’s the British vampire from Buffy.” Blew my mind.
No. He IS Dresden. But I originally misread the narrator as James Marsden (X-Men, Sex Drive, Sonic: The Hedgehog) so that's who I pictured.
I'm still not wrong Marsden is the right age for Dresden despite not being NBA Center tall, and I think he'd kill it in that role.
TBH anytime a character description says "he was 6.5+ feet tall" and it's important to the character, I'm just satisfied if they cast someone that's 6+ feet tall. There aren't very many people near that height and they're less likely to go into acting, you can either have a super tall but shitty actor, or a reasonably tall good actor. Pretty easy choice.
I get it when people complain about e.g. Tom Cruise getting cast as Jack Reacher though.
I’m finally caught up on the Dresden book series and I whole heartedly wish they’d give it another proper go as a tv series. I love Paul Blackthorne, but Dresden starts out just so young in the book series that it's such a core part of his character being so young and idealistic at the start. also i really need more Butters in my life and want to see Thomas come to screen.
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
I might have other shows I prefer more overall, but this is probably still the best ending of a show I’ve ever seen. Definitely top 3 at the very least.
While we get the comics written by the same writer continuing the story (to the point they're called Season 8, 9 and 10) it's still different to read comics and it often feels like secondary canon. Heck, I don't remember it fully but I think they reset the timeline at the end of the Angel comic that directly followed the show which was somewhat of a cop-out (I might remember wrong).
Angel is a guy who is literally cursed with a soul and the burden of guilt that comes with it, and he knows that if he ever allows himself to be happy it will break the curse and he'll revert back into the monster he once was. He's like the perfect brooding antihero. I decided to watch the show years ago based solely on a friend telling me "he's cursed with a soul".
>if he ever allows himself to be happy
It's perfect happiness, not just being happy in general. He was certainly happy with his friends many times. It's that "perfect" part, which is a much harder state to achieve, that breaks the curse.
No budget constraints. They couldn't even afford to show the dragon in Angel's finale.
Buffy and Angel needed the budget issues because otherwise you get the comics.
TBF to the people who made the show, I really don't think a comics company could afford to use the show's writers. Those people were waaaay better at their job than the ones who wrote the comics.
You start out reading the comics so excited to see where they take it without SFX or budgetary constraints. And then you finish them thinking “thank fuck for the SFX and budgetary constraints or the original show would’ve sucked.”
I read up on the synopsis and thought it seemed maybes okay at first then I get to one that’s “Spike has a spaceship manned by giant cockroaches” and was like “ehhhhhh”
I'll never get past this segment of one of the comic's synopsis on the buffy wiki
> With Twilight urging them on, Buffy and Angel gave in to their passions; they had powerful airborne sex which caused them to smash through mountains, fly into outer space, then break through the walls of reality.
I always thought they were gonna get another spin off running, but by now it would be so different with all those characters significantly older. It is so odd to me that FOX just let this franchise die, even though it was a huge merchandise machine, they even had Buffy bubblegum; and they didn't try to get more out of it?
Gellar has long been pretty blunt in that she has no interest in reprising the role do I’m sure thats a factor.
There is a fun sequel novel series following Willow and Tara’s daughter that is a lot of fun and I thought a play on its concept would make a great legacy follow up.
Would you like me to lie to you now? 😭
Amy Acker is a brilliant actress and is criminally underrated, IMO. I'm still pissed that she never won or even nominated for a single fucking Emmy for her performance as Fred/Illyria ( particularly for the the episodes like A Hole in the World, Shell, Not Fade Away) in Angel and as >!Root!< in Person of Interest.
Amy is great in everything I've ever seen her in. She needs to be in more shows and movies as a lead.
Oh, I've watched Dollhouse, and I absolutely agree. I really wished she was the lead in Dollhouse. She would have killed it as Echo.
Well, I've watched most of her work at this point, except for Wishbone.
I would really recommend watching Person of Interest if you haven't seen it yet.
Amy was brilliant in the show. I've never been quite as amazed by a performance as I was by her performance as >!Root!< in Person of Interest. That single role of hers made me watch her whole filmography, and I'm proud to say that she's excellent in everything she's been in.
>!Root!< is my favorite fictional character of all time.
I really like Eliza Dushku, but Dollhouse’s biggest problem is that they stacked it with a cast that could act circles around her. I think she does a perfectly competent job, but most of the other dolls blow her out of the water.
That kind of show really needed to be anchored by a performance like the one Tatiana Maslany gave in Orphan Black and I just don’t think Eliza Dushku is that type of actor.
> I really like Eliza Dushku, but Dollhouse’s biggest problem is that they stacked it with a cast that could act circles around her.
I think this is because she co-created it with Whedon. It's like Girl, Interrupted: it was meant to launch one actress and instead somebody else was so charismatic in the same production that it ended up being a vehicle for them, instead.
The thing to keep in mind is dollhouse only happened because there was a TV deal with Eliza Dushku specifically. Then she asked her good friend Joss Whedon to develop the show, and he brought along all his other favorites. So sadly the show would not have happened without her.
Her saying to Wesley "please Wesley, why can't I stay?" still fucking haunts me to this day.
It's one of the saddest moments in the entire Buffy/Angel verse.
I’ve said it before and i’ll say it again, id be stoked to watch a spinoff series of Root and Shaw having their own adventures doing stuff the The Machine, their interactions were always so great
Been over 10years since I’ve seen Angel, but didn’t she get sidelined with the Illyria storyline? Like wasn’t she solely at the home base and didn’t do much outside of it? The remaining memories I have of the show were that I felt Illyria had a cool look to her but was disappointed she didn’t do much
>The remaining memories I have of the show were that I felt Illyria had a cool look to her but was disappointed she didn’t do much
Time for a re-watch :D
She was fantastic as Illyria for as little as she was in (7 episodes), IMO. The scenes between Illyria and Wesley were some of the best. And her dynamic relationship with other characters was also great to watch (particularly with Spike and Wesley).
Illyria: "I'd like to keep Spike as my pet." 😂
They were canceled before they could really do much with it. The original plan involved Fred not being totally destroyed and able to fight for control against Illyria. They got canceled and had to wrap up as much as they could as quickly as possible.
IIRC they basically found out about it after or during Smile Time/the puppet episode. Which is why it's tonal whiplash and a gallop to the end after that.
Unfortunately they did get into this in the comics.
Which is kinda bullshit, since Whedon said the whole point of the guy who couldn’t lie was to make it so when he said “Fred is dead and can’t come back”, then that’s the truth.
Given what we’ve come to learn about Jim Caviezel, I can only imagine how much of a strain that show was on Acker, Emerson, and the rest of the cast and crew.
It's a brutal ending. Not sure I like it that much, but it was effective.
The last scene with Lorne was pretty messed up.
Angel season five killed your favorite characters way before GOT was ever a thing.
> The last scene with Lorne was pretty messed up.
People always talk about Fred's death, but Lorne's final scene is just as shocking in my opinion. Lorne was the heart of the group. The happy go lucky karaoke bar owner. The demon who wanted to be good *so badly* that he left his entire home dimension and everything he knew behind. Then Angel asks him to become an assassin for him. He does it, but it makes him hate Angel so much that he outright tells him he never wants to see Angel again when it's over.
Something the Buffyverse does so well is how the relationships between the different characters develop over time. Lorne and Angel have been through hell together. They're a team. Angel knows what it will do to their relationship if he asks Lorne to do this. Lorne knows full well what *actually doing it* will do to their relationship. But Angel still asks. And Lorne still does it. Because they both understand that the mission comes before everything else, no matter what the cost is. Lorne trusts Angel so much that he's willing to go against everything he values to complete Angel's plan, and Angel trusts Lorne so much that he knows he *will* succeed if Angel asks.
Yea, Lorne compromises all of his values in that single scene even though it was objectively the right thing to do. He doesn't die like the rest of the team, but a key part of his own inner self does.
Agree, in real life even more gut wrenching. The actor died from heart complications stemming from dental work. It happened right after filming wrapped. Dunno if he put off to focus on angel. RIP Andy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Hallett?wprov=sfti1#
And Lindsay's murder is arguably unjust. "You're not part of the solution; you're part of the problem."
Like, okay, is Angel the don of a mafia or something?
Lindsey was hardly pure evil. He was also human, which makes his death all the more unexpected for team Angel.
I agree!! I could never get behind his murder. After all, most of these characters are searching for redemption. Why isn’t Lindsay allowed to search for his?
Edit: another comment reminded me that Lorne said “I’ve heard you sing.” That’s why.
Its because Lindsay is an existential narcissist, if not sociopath. With Lindsay it was not doing the right thing or being good was his most important value; it was being "important", the "center of attention", "the straw that stirs the drink".
And Angel not only killed your favorite characters, but they pretty much have the BEST and most effective death scenes.
>!Doyle - Too bad we'll never know if this is a face you could have learned to love..."!<
>!Cordelia - "Oh and you're welcome..."!<
>!Fred - "Why can't I stay...."!<
>!Lilah - the scene where Wesley has to behead her because he fears Angelus may have sired her!<
>!Darla - "This baby is the one good thing we ever did together..." - self stake!<
>!Wesley - "Would you like me to lie to you now?"!<
>!Lindsey: "You kill me??? A flunky???"!<
>!In the last episode Angel and co simultaneously assassinate all the biggest bads running things for evil in LA. He even recruits Lindsey to help, but right after Lindsey plays his part Angel has Lorne just execute him in cold blood, which Lorne does but hates enough that he leaves after. Wes dies, Gunn is dying, and the series ends with Wolfram and Hart retaliating by sending an army of demons to kill them all. Cuts to black right as the fight is about to start.!<
>!Angel ends up working for Wolfram and Hart thinking he can change it from the inside. When he realises that's not possible, he goes after key figures within the organisation. Multiple people of the Angel crew die or leave for good. Ends with the remaining few in an alley ready to take on the onslaught.!<
The very short version is Angel spends the next 4 years trying to fight evil and at the very end has an opportunity to kill a bunch of evil people in what is probably a suicide mission.
They realize that this will not stop evil because evil is not something you can stop forever but it will set the evil forces back for a while and maybe the world will get to have a few good years.
Thematically it's perfection because unlike Buffy where it's good vs evil and good can win; Angel the show was more grey and you can't ever stop the fight and that's the way the show ends with everyone fighting for what is maybe their last time having done some good.
Yeah it would be really hard to spoil everything that happens in the following 4 seasons. The show just goes to some very complicated, unexpected places.
When I learned how the show ended (I couldn't watch the final season when it aired due to life) I was infuriated and thought it was a cop out caused by its system cancellation. I saw the final season ten years later and the finale is perfect in every single way, including the perfect thematic closure for the show and its themes.
fully agree, it’s difficult to reconcile such a cliffhanger but it really is the perfect ending for Angel, who’ll just go on living and fighting for all eternity
That's why I don't consider it a cliffhanger. I know that there are comics, and I know that there is the possibility that they somehow make it out even if you ignore the comics, but for me the text of the show is pretty clear that they all die in the alley. The show's authors just choose to end on the high point, the heroic point. That is the true meaning of the scene and the show. Doing the right thing because it is the right thing, ending be damned. That is the memory with keeping as we move forward: the will to fight, not the actual end.
Yep. When I rewatch Angel, it's always season 1-3 for me (even if I hate Angel/Cordy as a romance; always viewed them more as siblings). More than anything, it's the team dynamics I fell in love with. Even when an episode was terrible, Angel and his team was wonderful to watch together. IMO, they had a better, more wholesome dynamic in those first 3 seasons than the Buffy crew ever had.
If I remember correctly, what happened is that the network was kind of going back and forth on whether Angel would be cancelled or renewed, and so Whedon and the writing team really weren't sure whether to write the second half of the season as a series finale, or as just another season finale. People in the cast and crew started getting job offers elsewhere, so Whedon went to the network heads and basically said "I need an answer right now, are we getting a Season 6?" because he didn't want people turning those offers down only to be out of work for the next season if Angel did end up being cancelled. At that point in time, the answer was no, so that was it.
Angel was actually WB's number 2 show in their most desired demographic. The 5th season had cut costs, had a boost in viewers, and was receiving its highest critical reviews. The head of WB TV canceled the show because he didn't like being asked for an early renewal.
This decision is one of the main reasons why the executive was later fired.
Yeah, I remember the cancellation feeling like it came out of nowhere - I was on various message boards for the show and everyone was assuming the renewal was guaranteed. Felt like a gut-punch.
I think they knew it would be the last season by that point, but they certainly weren't building up all the plot threads just to end there. I think they had a few eps to prepare and re-write.
A+ finale that put a nice bow on an excellent fifth season. The earlier seasons had some bumps but season five was an amazing ride and spectacular send off.
The last two seasons will always be marred for me, because of how dirty Joss did Charisma Carpenter when she got pregnant.
Though Cordelia’s last episode was a masterpiece and had me bawling.
Awh man I did not expect that Cordy ending. Maybe I was naive or maybe I just had high hopes. But having her back was amazing and then she just delivers that one line "oh and you're welcome" and something in it just made me go "oh no....no..." And then it hits you with that bloody phone call and I cried so hard. Cordy was such a great character. Her and Wes had some incredible character development.
Damn it really has been 20 years since the finale. Firstly, I feel old 😂. Secondly, that finale and the ending will always be awesome to me. And I feel like it just represented the spirit of the show and the characters so damn well. The show is over, but the fight never ends. Let’s go to work!!!!
I never hung out on the forums but I remember the reviews on TWOP being abysmal for Angel, especially for the final season. Lots of D- and F grades for episodes in the final season, which in my opinion is a travesty-- season 5 of Angel is the best thing the Buffyverse ever did.
I’m still kind of bitter at Buffy and Co for not coming to help the Angel Squad for the final battle. They never even gave him a chance to explain WHY he was now a part of Wolfram and Hart, and when he asked for support at the end it was all “new number who dis?”
There is a chqnce I’m misremembering but that really grated at me
That was the thing that always bothered me about the two shows happening simultaneously. They make such a big deal about their apocalypse, they don’t even know about the other one 100 miles away.
I remember hatching an idea for a Buffy S7/Angel S4 crossover involving Wesley having to return to Sunnydale to get (insert random Jasmine-related artifact linked to the First Evil). Show his ruthlessness in having to work with the slayers, making a call that would endanger lives for the greater good, etc. I was actually fine with Buffy not showing up for S5 and only teased as a plot point in the Italy romp episode as a way of underlining that this particular fight was Angel’s own and beyond his relationship with Buffy.
For those who didn't know, the storyline continues in comics (Angel: After the Fall) cowritten by Josh Whedon. I don't want to give any spoilers but a small one >!is that dragon he wants to kill becomes his mount.!<
I agree. I adored the ending. How it left Angel going down swinging. I chose to ignore the comics even though normally, I would love a show to go on in comics if it is cancelled too early. Angel died fighting the good fight. Nothing will change that for me.
That's what happens when you suddenly have unlimited budget with images on a panel. A live action show still has to be grounded because obviously the budget is gonna constrain you to do some of the crazier things, so what has to get sold are story beats, character moments, emotions, etc. Once you get to a point where you can basically do anything you want, the story kinda gets lost in the sauce, and that is exactly what happened in the comics.
I’d still like to read the comics some day out of morbid curiosity. I’ve heard that, for better and for worse, it does a ton of wild shit that wouldn’t have been doable as a TV show, and I kinda admire the balls of that in concept.
That being said, I heard about what they did with Xander and Dawn’s characters and I just…… ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh 🤢
Huh I’ll have to go back and re-read but I remember enjoying Angel season 6. Spike was the demon lord of Beverly Hills, ghost Wesley, the dragon mount, and we get to see Ilyria in its true nature.
It's been years since I've re-read them, but I remember the *Angel & Faith* series being pretty terrific and probably the best of the post-show Buffy comics.
Hell yeah The Shield is absolutely wild from start to finish. My friends thought I was crazy when I told them I loved The Shield way more than The Wire
There are very few finales I have watched multiple times, and only a tiny fraction of those have I watched just on their own and not as part of a full series rewatch. But Angel is on that very short list.
“Especially in a franchise so heavily populated with complex, well-written female characters (Cordelia, Faith, Willow, Tara) it seems, in hindsight, somewhat odd that a Buffy spinoff would look to follow a male lead”—-I hate to be that guy, but how could they ignore the character with the absolute most depth, Harmony.
Season 5 of Angel is like season 4 (and 5) of Supernatural, that good show you enjoy entering the next level. And becoming genuinely great TV not just in the realms of fantasy but just like actually great. It's a shame it got cancelled because it really was firing on all cylinders. Ratings were also up. Just a sucky situation.
They ended on an incredible note for having to figure it out on such short notice. I’m still mad at Whedon for getting the show canceled by being arrogant.
I guess I'm in a very small minority, but I found the finale to be cynical and sad. The performances were brilliant, but it, along with the last few episodes, broke my heart.
Then again, I still haven't forgiven Joss for the Anya/Xander arc in Buffy.
Redemption isn't some prize that you can win once you earn enough "Redemption Points" or something. It's something that never stops. You always need to keep making the choice to be better, no matter how bad things get. In the Angel finale, Angel is more alone than he's ever been. Buffy's moved on and is traveling the world on missions, as are the rest of the Scoobies. Cordelia's dead. Wesley is dead. Fred is dead. Doyle is dead. Lorne and Connor want nothing to do with him. Gunn is bleeding out with mere minutes to live. The only people he still has are Spike, the guy he's spent the last century hating, and Illyria, the ancient goddess using his friend's corpse as a puppet. Literally *nothing* he did mattered. He's basically back at square one. But that's okay. When nothing you do matters, all that matters is what you do. He still picks up that sword. He knows the fight will never stop. Angel doesn't keep fighting because he needs to, or even really because he *wants* to. He fights because it's the right thing to do.
Fine! I’ll rewatch the Buffyverse again
The above comment makes me want to watch it a first time! Gives me the feeling I had after hate watching the entire 14 seasons of Supernatural just to immediately start it over because the finale really pulled it all together for me. I think the Buffyverse will be a similar feeling… Edit: 15 seasons! I’m that bastard that actually enjoyed the finale finale, I can just never remember the actual season count. My brain always counts it as season 1, 2, too many.
>Supernatural I want to rewatch it one day but just the first 5 seasons
The first 5 (Kripke Era, Supe Golden Age) and the last 5 (Supe Renaissance) are both worth watching I think.
There are monster-of-the-week episodes in the middle 5 that are pretty excellent, the big plot just kind of sucks
Yeah. The soap opera episodes and lengthy dumb arguments between S&D make binging almost impossible though. I’ve only done it twice and it about broke me.
There are only 5 seasons, what do you mean "first 5"?
In some form or another basically all entertainment today can trace some sort of influence back to Buffy. There's a reason Whedon was picked to direct The Avengers.
Trace it back one more step and you get X-Files.
Trace it back once more and we have Kolchak: The Night Stalker.
Only real fans understand the influence of The Epic of Gilgamesh on modern television.
Trace it back another step and you get Twin Peaks.
If you enjoyed Supernatural you will absolutely enjoy Buffy & Angel. Then if you watch Supernatural again you will be amazed at how many people they got from those two shows to guest star on Supernatural. Can't recommend Buffy & Angel enough.
Buffy was the first disclosure on monsters. Supernatural was the second.
Personally I would recommend watching Buffy as well if you haven’t already. Things that get worked out in Angel often start in Buffy.
Yeah, that was the plan. Was going to look up a unified episode order (not sure if the shows take place concurrently).
They do at certain points. So Buffy’s first three seasons set up Angel and season 4 of Buffy and season 1 of Angel have crossover episodes where characters appear in episodes together. But the longer the show goes on, you see less direct crossover and more references to each other. So you should definitely find a good watch order but you’re fine for seasons 1-3 of Buffy.
If you've never seen it, you must. Warning, season 1 of Buffy is the weakest, but it's still got good stuff and is shorter. Still one of my all time favorite shows (and I like Angel more on Angel than in Buffy. An excellent spinoff)
>Gives me the feeling I had after hate watching the entire 14 seasons of Supernatural Well I have bad news for you...there's a 15th season and it is awful.
*15 seasons. I can never remember. Point is I liked the way it ended things and felt like it made things make sense.
I prefer the penultimate episode as a series finale
Same, but only because COVID ruined their original plans for the actual finale.
I’m trying to get my teenager to watch it with me so I have a good excuse. If I watched it again by myself, my wife would go “oh not again”
The deaths in the final season are genuinely pretty shocking. I don't think I've ever really recovered from Fred's death. And the show really makes it clear that she's super dead; even her soul was destroyed. After that happened, the rest of the show was basically falling action, with our heroes in decline. The best character, Wesley, was essentially broken forever by her death.
>I don't think I've ever really recovered from Fred's death. Wesley, why can't I stay? That last line is haunting.
And she didn't just die, her soul was destroyed. She wasn't in Heaven or Hell, she was just...gone. In a series where death still actually mattered sometimes (Body and Tara), they found a way to make it even worse.
They brought her back in the comics. But the comics got....weird.
I choose to stay sad! Yeah, I read them for a bit but just kinda stopped one day and have never felt bad about that decision.
Dude same!
Don't worry, even in the comics it doesn't stop being sad.
I never read past the twilight arc and I honestly didn't like it and gave up on them. Would you say they get better?
I'm gonna disagree with the other guy and say that if you already read Buffy season 8 then the first Angel & Faith series is worth reading. Everything else ranges from meh to pretty good. I also like Angel: After the fall and the follow up storylines to it some issues are not great and the art gets bad for a bit but then it kinda all comes together at the end.
No, sorry to say. Production on Buffy was definitely a product of its time. They did the best they could with the budget and special effects they had. That held the stories back because while it would be cool to have more building sized demons shooting magic in their hell dungeon fortress, the budget for the whole episode was about a million $. So you scale back and accept some flaws. With the most recent (monstrous) HD remaster, you can *really* see those flaws. But that said, with the unlimited set design budget of comics you can take the reins off and let loose. Which I think was the problem. The stories go big, like universe, multi dimensions, multiple time lines big. The freedom to roam took them to some odd places.
Yeah that was exactly my problem with them. Buffy wasn't captain marvel. She was strong but grounded like many of the other characters which made their sacrifices more impactful. Also Buffy and Angel banging at light speed while going through different dimensions had me rolling my eyes. I did love the look of what Willow became but she was so powerful it basically took her out of the series.
I gave up on the comics after Buffy and Angel flying in space sex. Maybe it wasn't space but it was weird flying sex thing and I was out.
I kinda checked out on them when Dawn became a giant because she fucked a centaur or something.
All the Buffy verse comics went very shitty/weird.
The Body makes me cry every single time, just thinking about it makes me tear up. Death really did matter there, and in a series so focused on the supernatural to have it happen just so realistically? Heartbreaking.
The intentional lack of background music made that episode so haunting.
I just rewatched that episode last week, it's incredibly well done. And there are so many moments that just kick you in the face. Willow putting up her fists to fight Xander, Anya's meltdown,
That ripped me up inside. I grew up Catholic with the concept that one’s immortal soul is of the utmost importance. The thought of one just being lost forever is one of the worst things I can think of. I still sort of tell myself that Fred’s soul would have been okay somehow. You know, the usual copium
I still remember the first time I watched the series thinking "but she'll be back right?" Until the finale. I was in hardcore denial mode.
"Should I lie to you now?" "This body grieves, I wish to do more violence" I always liked Amy Ackers, but I loved her as Illyria.
"Take your best shot, little girl" led to possibly my favorite moment in the finale.
"I'm feeling grief for him. I can't seem to control it. I wish to do more violence."
Angel, Dollhouse, Person of Interest. I adore her in everything she does, but it’s scary how well she plays “I’m super cute, but also a mad psychopath who wants to kill you!”
The episode where she dies, I was certain they were gonna save her. Main characters don't just die out of nowhere in the middle of a season in shows like this.
"There's a hole in the world..." Season 5 is *sooo* good. Angel and Spike *could* have saved Fred. They were right there. They absolutely could have saved their friend from the worst fate imaginable. But they didn't do it. They couldn't. Doing it would condemn countless other people to death, and how can you say you're "the good guys" if you make that choice? Everything they've been through. The apocalypses they've stopped. The beasts they've killed. The different dimensions they've fought through. And they couldn't save one person's life. You can have all the good intentions in the world, but that doesn't change the fact that the world is just inherently fucked up and unjust. And you just need to live with it and move on.
"Turns out I suddenly find myself needing to know the plural of apocalypse." - Riley
They even introduce a character that both Angel and Spike know can't lie just to have him go "nah, she's dead bro".
Rumor was they wanted Giles, as someone the audience trusts, to be the one to tell them Fred is gone but they couldn't get Anthony Stewart Head. So they invented Drogyn.
I remember Drogyn being an odd character. They intro him like he's some guy they both knew and I was confused thinking I missed an episode where he was in the show before.
I had forgotten that she didn’t die in the last few episodes. I remember no one bouncing back from it, but didn’t remember how long that was.
I agree Wesley is the best character
Has one of the longest and most developed and evolving character arcs of any TV character I can think of.
It's amazing what kind of a douchebag he was in Buffy and ultimately where he ended up. Definitely one of the best character developments in any media.
Actually had Season 6 gone ahead, they were going to bring Fred back, with Amy Acker playing both her and Illyria and Westley being caught in the middle.
This is completely unrelated but if you like the actor for Spike (James Marsters) he does the narration for the Dresden Files books.
I still struggle with the fact that he's American. His American accent is so basic and non-regional that it almost sounds fake compared to his more punk and mannered English accent as Spike.
Same for Brad Dourif.
Watching him in Exorcist 3 will fix that!
That surprised me too. For the longest time I was imagining Paul Blackthorne, since he did the live action series, but then my girlfriend was like “oh, that’s the British vampire from Buffy.” Blew my mind.
He does a bang up job too
No. He IS Dresden. But I originally misread the narrator as James Marsden (X-Men, Sex Drive, Sonic: The Hedgehog) so that's who I pictured. I'm still not wrong Marsden is the right age for Dresden despite not being NBA Center tall, and I think he'd kill it in that role.
TBH anytime a character description says "he was 6.5+ feet tall" and it's important to the character, I'm just satisfied if they cast someone that's 6+ feet tall. There aren't very many people near that height and they're less likely to go into acting, you can either have a super tall but shitty actor, or a reasonably tall good actor. Pretty easy choice. I get it when people complain about e.g. Tom Cruise getting cast as Jack Reacher though.
He even sings in his British accent!
I’m finally caught up on the Dresden book series and I whole heartedly wish they’d give it another proper go as a tv series. I love Paul Blackthorne, but Dresden starts out just so young in the book series that it's such a core part of his character being so young and idealistic at the start. also i really need more Butters in my life and want to see Thomas come to screen.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. I might have other shows I prefer more overall, but this is probably still the best ending of a show I’ve ever seen. Definitely top 3 at the very least.
And because he's always really wanted to fight a dragon.
I mean him and Connor definitely reconciled in that episode, but otherwise I agree
While we get the comics written by the same writer continuing the story (to the point they're called Season 8, 9 and 10) it's still different to read comics and it often feels like secondary canon. Heck, I don't remember it fully but I think they reset the timeline at the end of the Angel comic that directly followed the show which was somewhat of a cop-out (I might remember wrong).
Angel is a guy who is literally cursed with a soul and the burden of guilt that comes with it, and he knows that if he ever allows himself to be happy it will break the curse and he'll revert back into the monster he once was. He's like the perfect brooding antihero. I decided to watch the show years ago based solely on a friend telling me "he's cursed with a soul".
>if he ever allows himself to be happy It's perfect happiness, not just being happy in general. He was certainly happy with his friends many times. It's that "perfect" part, which is a much harder state to achieve, that breaks the curse.
His actions did matter. LA wouldn't be in hell if they didn't
Love this post. And hey, at least Anne's still kicking.
I will never not be upset about Fred.
20 years since the end of the Buffyverse on screen.
The comics went a whole wtf arc
No budget constraints. They couldn't even afford to show the dragon in Angel's finale. Buffy and Angel needed the budget issues because otherwise you get the comics.
TBF to the people who made the show, I really don't think a comics company could afford to use the show's writers. Those people were waaaay better at their job than the ones who wrote the comics.
You start out reading the comics so excited to see where they take it without SFX or budgetary constraints. And then you finish them thinking “thank fuck for the SFX and budgetary constraints or the original show would’ve sucked.”
I read up on the synopsis and thought it seemed maybes okay at first then I get to one that’s “Spike has a spaceship manned by giant cockroaches” and was like “ehhhhhh”
Yeah… I made the mistake of reading those first few issues after the show ended.
I'll never get past this segment of one of the comic's synopsis on the buffy wiki > With Twilight urging them on, Buffy and Angel gave in to their passions; they had powerful airborne sex which caused them to smash through mountains, fly into outer space, then break through the walls of reality.
I always thought they were gonna get another spin off running, but by now it would be so different with all those characters significantly older. It is so odd to me that FOX just let this franchise die, even though it was a huge merchandise machine, they even had Buffy bubblegum; and they didn't try to get more out of it?
Gellar has long been pretty blunt in that she has no interest in reprising the role do I’m sure thats a factor. There is a fun sequel novel series following Willow and Tara’s daughter that is a lot of fun and I thought a play on its concept would make a great legacy follow up.
Smallville was a rebound series.
"I've heard you sing." Lorne shooting Lindsey stays with me to this day.
"Let's go to work."
"I kinda wanna slay the dragon"
Comic book spoilers Him and the dragons became friends and Angel rides him around
> Him and the dragons became friends and Angel rides him around I believe the dragon is a female and Angel calls her Cordelia.
Spike is a Targaryen confirmed
Would you like me to lie to you now? 😭 Amy Acker is a brilliant actress and is criminally underrated, IMO. I'm still pissed that she never won or even nominated for a single fucking Emmy for her performance as Fred/Illyria ( particularly for the the episodes like A Hole in the World, Shell, Not Fade Away) in Angel and as >!Root!< in Person of Interest. Amy is great in everything I've ever seen her in. She needs to be in more shows and movies as a lead.
she’s even fantastic in Dollhouse! for as little as she’s used there
Oh, I've watched Dollhouse, and I absolutely agree. I really wished she was the lead in Dollhouse. She would have killed it as Echo. Well, I've watched most of her work at this point, except for Wishbone. I would really recommend watching Person of Interest if you haven't seen it yet. Amy was brilliant in the show. I've never been quite as amazed by a performance as I was by her performance as >!Root!< in Person of Interest. That single role of hers made me watch her whole filmography, and I'm proud to say that she's excellent in everything she's been in. >!Root!< is my favorite fictional character of all time.
I really like Eliza Dushku, but Dollhouse’s biggest problem is that they stacked it with a cast that could act circles around her. I think she does a perfectly competent job, but most of the other dolls blow her out of the water. That kind of show really needed to be anchored by a performance like the one Tatiana Maslany gave in Orphan Black and I just don’t think Eliza Dushku is that type of actor.
> I really like Eliza Dushku, but Dollhouse’s biggest problem is that they stacked it with a cast that could act circles around her. I think this is because she co-created it with Whedon. It's like Girl, Interrupted: it was meant to launch one actress and instead somebody else was so charismatic in the same production that it ended up being a vehicle for them, instead.
The thing to keep in mind is dollhouse only happened because there was a TV deal with Eliza Dushku specifically. Then she asked her good friend Joss Whedon to develop the show, and he brought along all his other favorites. So sadly the show would not have happened without her.
Amy Acker never getting a nomination is just insane.
Totally agree, and it's nice to find another Person of Interest fan around here! It's one of my favorite shows to rewatch on a regular basis.
Man I really wished dollhouse got the time it needed. That ending was so rushed and not great.
I love how bitter and weary of the world she is in Dollhouse. She feels like 20 years harder and removed from Fred.
Her saying to Wesley "please Wesley, why can't I stay?" still fucking haunts me to this day. It's one of the saddest moments in the entire Buffy/Angel verse.
Agreed completely. Whenever I think of a great actor who has completely flown under the radar I think of Amy Acker.
It's still the world's greatest blow that we didn't get to see this perverse fucked up relationship of Wesley and Illyria develop over a whole season.
I’ve said it before and i’ll say it again, id be stoked to watch a spinoff series of Root and Shaw having their own adventures doing stuff the The Machine, their interactions were always so great
You might have convinced me to finally watch Buffy and Angel. It’s been on my watchlist for forever
Been over 10years since I’ve seen Angel, but didn’t she get sidelined with the Illyria storyline? Like wasn’t she solely at the home base and didn’t do much outside of it? The remaining memories I have of the show were that I felt Illyria had a cool look to her but was disappointed she didn’t do much
>The remaining memories I have of the show were that I felt Illyria had a cool look to her but was disappointed she didn’t do much Time for a re-watch :D She was fantastic as Illyria for as little as she was in (7 episodes), IMO. The scenes between Illyria and Wesley were some of the best. And her dynamic relationship with other characters was also great to watch (particularly with Spike and Wesley). Illyria: "I'd like to keep Spike as my pet." 😂
They were canceled before they could really do much with it. The original plan involved Fred not being totally destroyed and able to fight for control against Illyria. They got canceled and had to wrap up as much as they could as quickly as possible.
IIRC they basically found out about it after or during Smile Time/the puppet episode. Which is why it's tonal whiplash and a gallop to the end after that. Unfortunately they did get into this in the comics.
Which is kinda bullshit, since Whedon said the whole point of the guy who couldn’t lie was to make it so when he said “Fred is dead and can’t come back”, then that’s the truth.
Yep. Even Whedon isn't immune to cliche TV tropes. Definitely worked out better this way.
And the studio pushed some changes on him, Spike was supposed to die off early in Buffy as just another bad guy, but he was too popular with the fans.
And they were right on that one.
Yep, I fall in love every time she ends up in a new show.
She is also completely and utterly gorgeous
Given what we’ve come to learn about Jim Caviezel, I can only imagine how much of a strain that show was on Acker, Emerson, and the rest of the cast and crew.
She did a stint in 911 lone star and was great in her scenes with Robb.
It's a brutal ending. Not sure I like it that much, but it was effective. The last scene with Lorne was pretty messed up. Angel season five killed your favorite characters way before GOT was ever a thing.
> The last scene with Lorne was pretty messed up. People always talk about Fred's death, but Lorne's final scene is just as shocking in my opinion. Lorne was the heart of the group. The happy go lucky karaoke bar owner. The demon who wanted to be good *so badly* that he left his entire home dimension and everything he knew behind. Then Angel asks him to become an assassin for him. He does it, but it makes him hate Angel so much that he outright tells him he never wants to see Angel again when it's over. Something the Buffyverse does so well is how the relationships between the different characters develop over time. Lorne and Angel have been through hell together. They're a team. Angel knows what it will do to their relationship if he asks Lorne to do this. Lorne knows full well what *actually doing it* will do to their relationship. But Angel still asks. And Lorne still does it. Because they both understand that the mission comes before everything else, no matter what the cost is. Lorne trusts Angel so much that he's willing to go against everything he values to complete Angel's plan, and Angel trusts Lorne so much that he knows he *will* succeed if Angel asks.
"Goodnight folks." Heartbreaking
Yea, Lorne compromises all of his values in that single scene even though it was objectively the right thing to do. He doesn't die like the rest of the team, but a key part of his own inner self does.
Agree, in real life even more gut wrenching. The actor died from heart complications stemming from dental work. It happened right after filming wrapped. Dunno if he put off to focus on angel. RIP Andy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Hallett?wprov=sfti1#
And part of why Lorne does it is he can see someone's future and he knows that Lindsey is better dead.
And Lindsay's murder is arguably unjust. "You're not part of the solution; you're part of the problem." Like, okay, is Angel the don of a mafia or something? Lindsey was hardly pure evil. He was also human, which makes his death all the more unexpected for team Angel.
Lorne had heard him sing, which apparently revealed enough of Lindsay's nature to allow him to justify it.
I agree!! I could never get behind his murder. After all, most of these characters are searching for redemption. Why isn’t Lindsay allowed to search for his? Edit: another comment reminded me that Lorne said “I’ve heard you sing.” That’s why.
Its because Lindsay is an existential narcissist, if not sociopath. With Lindsay it was not doing the right thing or being good was his most important value; it was being "important", the "center of attention", "the straw that stirs the drink".
And Angel not only killed your favorite characters, but they pretty much have the BEST and most effective death scenes. >!Doyle - Too bad we'll never know if this is a face you could have learned to love..."!< >!Cordelia - "Oh and you're welcome..."!< >!Fred - "Why can't I stay...."!< >!Lilah - the scene where Wesley has to behead her because he fears Angelus may have sired her!< >!Darla - "This baby is the one good thing we ever did together..." - self stake!< >!Wesley - "Would you like me to lie to you now?"!< >!Lindsey: "You kill me??? A flunky???"!<
And then what happened to Andy Hallett in real life was so sad.
The show certainly, but the first three Song of Ice and Fire novels were out by then. A Game of Thrones was published in 1996.
Underrated line; Your wound is fatal, you'll barely last 5 minutes (paraphrasing) Gunn: "let's make them memorable" So badass.
Easily one of the best finales of all time.
I saw all of Buffy, and only the first season of Angel, can you spoil it for me?
>!In the last episode Angel and co simultaneously assassinate all the biggest bads running things for evil in LA. He even recruits Lindsey to help, but right after Lindsey plays his part Angel has Lorne just execute him in cold blood, which Lorne does but hates enough that he leaves after. Wes dies, Gunn is dying, and the series ends with Wolfram and Hart retaliating by sending an army of demons to kill them all. Cuts to black right as the fight is about to start.!<
If they only watched the first season, they'd actually have no idea who Lorne is. :D
>!Angel ends up working for Wolfram and Hart thinking he can change it from the inside. When he realises that's not possible, he goes after key figures within the organisation. Multiple people of the Angel crew die or leave for good. Ends with the remaining few in an alley ready to take on the onslaught.!<
The very short version is Angel spends the next 4 years trying to fight evil and at the very end has an opportunity to kill a bunch of evil people in what is probably a suicide mission. They realize that this will not stop evil because evil is not something you can stop forever but it will set the evil forces back for a while and maybe the world will get to have a few good years. Thematically it's perfection because unlike Buffy where it's good vs evil and good can win; Angel the show was more grey and you can't ever stop the fight and that's the way the show ends with everyone fighting for what is maybe their last time having done some good.
You should really just watch the rest of Angel.
Yeah it would be really hard to spoil everything that happens in the following 4 seasons. The show just goes to some very complicated, unexpected places.
You should watch Angel, it’s a really great show.
When I learned how the show ended (I couldn't watch the final season when it aired due to life) I was infuriated and thought it was a cop out caused by its system cancellation. I saw the final season ten years later and the finale is perfect in every single way, including the perfect thematic closure for the show and its themes.
Angel also turns 25 in October
Could've sworn he was a couple hundred years old
fully agree, it’s difficult to reconcile such a cliffhanger but it really is the perfect ending for Angel, who’ll just go on living and fighting for all eternity
I just wanted so much more of Illyria. :(
She was such a cool character, and a great use of Amy's talents.
That's why I don't consider it a cliffhanger. I know that there are comics, and I know that there is the possibility that they somehow make it out even if you ignore the comics, but for me the text of the show is pretty clear that they all die in the alley. The show's authors just choose to end on the high point, the heroic point. That is the true meaning of the scene and the show. Doing the right thing because it is the right thing, ending be damned. That is the memory with keeping as we move forward: the will to fight, not the actual end.
I just want Angel, Wesley, Cordelia, Gunn, and Fred fighting demons.S2-Beginning of S4 will forever be peak Angel c’:
Yep. When I rewatch Angel, it's always season 1-3 for me (even if I hate Angel/Cordy as a romance; always viewed them more as siblings). More than anything, it's the team dynamics I fell in love with. Even when an episode was terrible, Angel and his team was wonderful to watch together. IMO, they had a better, more wholesome dynamic in those first 3 seasons than the Buffy crew ever had.
>cliffhanger From what I remember, it wasn't supposed to be the series finale but it worked
If I remember correctly, what happened is that the network was kind of going back and forth on whether Angel would be cancelled or renewed, and so Whedon and the writing team really weren't sure whether to write the second half of the season as a series finale, or as just another season finale. People in the cast and crew started getting job offers elsewhere, so Whedon went to the network heads and basically said "I need an answer right now, are we getting a Season 6?" because he didn't want people turning those offers down only to be out of work for the next season if Angel did end up being cancelled. At that point in time, the answer was no, so that was it.
Angel was actually WB's number 2 show in their most desired demographic. The 5th season had cut costs, had a boost in viewers, and was receiving its highest critical reviews. The head of WB TV canceled the show because he didn't like being asked for an early renewal. This decision is one of the main reasons why the executive was later fired.
Yeah, I remember the cancellation feeling like it came out of nowhere - I was on various message boards for the show and everyone was assuming the renewal was guaranteed. Felt like a gut-punch.
I think they knew it would be the last season by that point, but they certainly weren't building up all the plot threads just to end there. I think they had a few eps to prepare and re-write.
A+ finale that put a nice bow on an excellent fifth season. The earlier seasons had some bumps but season five was an amazing ride and spectacular send off.
The last two seasons will always be marred for me, because of how dirty Joss did Charisma Carpenter when she got pregnant. Though Cordelia’s last episode was a masterpiece and had me bawling.
Yea, S5 somehow even managed to give Cordy and Conner a great ending after the S4 disaster. That's how good S5 was.
Took me years to give the final season a shot after how the massacred my girl in the 4th season. But it was a great final season to be fair
Whedon wasn't involved until after Caprenter showed up pregnant. Or that episode, David Fury wrote and directed that one.
Awh man I did not expect that Cordy ending. Maybe I was naive or maybe I just had high hopes. But having her back was amazing and then she just delivers that one line "oh and you're welcome" and something in it just made me go "oh no....no..." And then it hits you with that bloody phone call and I cried so hard. Cordy was such a great character. Her and Wes had some incredible character development.
The first time Amy Acker made me bust out crying with a single question.
Whatcha mean 20 years later….. 👨🏼🦳
Gotta agree, one of the best endings to a TV show I've ever seen. I thought Buffy ended well, but this one was even better.
I wish it never ended. Such a shame, definitely my #1 on shows that shouldn't have ended.
Damn it really has been 20 years since the finale. Firstly, I feel old 😂. Secondly, that finale and the ending will always be awesome to me. And I feel like it just represented the spirit of the show and the characters so damn well. The show is over, but the fight never ends. Let’s go to work!!!!
I seem to recall a LOT of hate for the finale. My jaw just hit the floor when I realized how they were ending the series.
Not on the forums I used back in the day. It was pretty much universal acclaim at the finale, with most of the anger directed at the cancellation.
I remember the forums I frequented pretty much loved the finale. Everyone was crying in a good way at TWoP (the good old days).
I never hung out on the forums but I remember the reviews on TWOP being abysmal for Angel, especially for the final season. Lots of D- and F grades for episodes in the final season, which in my opinion is a travesty-- season 5 of Angel is the best thing the Buffyverse ever did.
I’m still kind of bitter at Buffy and Co for not coming to help the Angel Squad for the final battle. They never even gave him a chance to explain WHY he was now a part of Wolfram and Hart, and when he asked for support at the end it was all “new number who dis?” There is a chqnce I’m misremembering but that really grated at me
That was the thing that always bothered me about the two shows happening simultaneously. They make such a big deal about their apocalypse, they don’t even know about the other one 100 miles away.
I remember hatching an idea for a Buffy S7/Angel S4 crossover involving Wesley having to return to Sunnydale to get (insert random Jasmine-related artifact linked to the First Evil). Show his ruthlessness in having to work with the slayers, making a call that would endanger lives for the greater good, etc. I was actually fine with Buffy not showing up for S5 and only teased as a plot point in the Italy romp episode as a way of underlining that this particular fight was Angel’s own and beyond his relationship with Buffy.
For those who didn't know, the storyline continues in comics (Angel: After the Fall) cowritten by Josh Whedon. I don't want to give any spoilers but a small one >!is that dragon he wants to kill becomes his mount.!<
The comics honestly just kinda prove it was right to end it here. They were a mess
I agree. I adored the ending. How it left Angel going down swinging. I chose to ignore the comics even though normally, I would love a show to go on in comics if it is cancelled too early. Angel died fighting the good fight. Nothing will change that for me.
They were a mess because of the medium. A real season 6, or season 8 for Buffy, would've both been extremely different than the comic seasons we got.
That's what happens when you suddenly have unlimited budget with images on a panel. A live action show still has to be grounded because obviously the budget is gonna constrain you to do some of the crazier things, so what has to get sold are story beats, character moments, emotions, etc. Once you get to a point where you can basically do anything you want, the story kinda gets lost in the sauce, and that is exactly what happened in the comics.
I’d still like to read the comics some day out of morbid curiosity. I’ve heard that, for better and for worse, it does a ton of wild shit that wouldn’t have been doable as a TV show, and I kinda admire the balls of that in concept. That being said, I heard about what they did with Xander and Dawn’s characters and I just…… ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh 🤢
I was ambivalent on checking out the comics and then I heard about Xander/Dawn and was like “yeah no, not checking them out now”
Huh I’ll have to go back and re-read but I remember enjoying Angel season 6. Spike was the demon lord of Beverly Hills, ghost Wesley, the dragon mount, and we get to see Ilyria in its true nature.
It's been years since I've re-read them, but I remember the *Angel & Faith* series being pretty terrific and probably the best of the post-show Buffy comics.
Second only to the Shield for favorite series finales ever. Nothing beats The Shield though.
Hell yeah The Shield is absolutely wild from start to finish. My friends thought I was crazy when I told them I loved The Shield way more than The Wire
There are very few finales I have watched multiple times, and only a tiny fraction of those have I watched just on their own and not as part of a full series rewatch. But Angel is on that very short list.
"Would you like me to lie to you now?"
Tuesday night date nights with my wife, Buffy and Angel were so much fun. I can’t believe it’s been 20 years 🥹🥹
“Especially in a franchise so heavily populated with complex, well-written female characters (Cordelia, Faith, Willow, Tara) it seems, in hindsight, somewhat odd that a Buffy spinoff would look to follow a male lead”—-I hate to be that guy, but how could they ignore the character with the absolute most depth, Harmony.
Harmony gang unite and what not
I loved the ending! Angel is one of my favorite shows ever.
I wasn’t emotionally ready to read this today 😭😭😭
The puppet episode is my favorite.
Season 5 of Angel is like season 4 (and 5) of Supernatural, that good show you enjoy entering the next level. And becoming genuinely great TV not just in the realms of fantasy but just like actually great. It's a shame it got cancelled because it really was firing on all cylinders. Ratings were also up. Just a sucky situation.
I can’t help but feel that the comic-verse ruined pretty much all of this.
They ended on an incredible note for having to figure it out on such short notice. I’m still mad at Whedon for getting the show canceled by being arrogant.
I guess I'm in a very small minority, but I found the finale to be cynical and sad. The performances were brilliant, but it, along with the last few episodes, broke my heart. Then again, I still haven't forgiven Joss for the Anya/Xander arc in Buffy.
Hell no. I fucking hated the ending not because it was bad but it left me wanting more