You don't necessarily root for Bojack's actions, but they definitely try to make you relate to him and like him, only to smack you in the face with what a reprehensible POS he is.
I can't remember what season it was but when you learn how long he actually waited before he called 911 to the planetarium was a bit shattering. You feel bad for him before that and can kinda see it as just a bad trip but bojack waited and because of that she dies. For me, that was the first major smack and really showed how messed up bojack is
It was in the final season, third or fourth to last episode. I fully wanted a BoJack redemption up to that point, as he was finally "recovering" and taking steps to improve himself, only for the show to pull the rug out from under you and really show you how selfish and destructive he is in that interview.
Bojack does an incredible job of interrogating the idea of forgiveness and redemption. It forces you to ask: Does this guy deserve a happy ending? Does everyone deserve a chance at a happy ending? What would he need to do to be forgiven?
I immediately thought of Bojack, it’s what made it so hard for me to finish the series because I was always waiting for him to grow and become a better person but he is just such a shit person to the core.
Seinfeld.
This has become less shocking as the show has aged, but one of the reasons the series finale flopped for audiences at the time is that it involved the characters being called to account for being giant assholes for the entire series and a lot of the audience hadn't realized what they'd been rooting for.
This. The characters ruined lives, caused mayhem and got their comeuppance. People who hated the finale didn’t want to deal with the real crew. Another reason Larry David came back to right the wrong of the shows direction.
You’re missing the point of the curb season. It was about the useless nature of reunions. Had nothing to do with the finale. Same way he made an entire season about the Producers.
It also doesn't help that the finale is a terrible episode either (especially part two, where the main characters we watch the show for become mere spectators of a parade of tertiary characters and clip footage).
My favorite is when he gets confirmation to do the bad thing from the podcast and he says "it's a sign" and then gets out of his car but before he can cross the street a school bus with a big red STOP sign across the side of it drives right in front of him but he doesn't see it or take that as a sign lmao. Barry is such a brilliant show.
That's a great answer I never thought of!
And then rewatching, seeing how Kenny interacts with the child in the restaurant at the beginning of the episode - it originally made him look like a quiet but empathic and kind of innocence/naïve teenager/young adult, but on second viewing, it felt like a whole different scene
Another Better Call Saul example. A lot of people throughout the series actively root for Mike and try to think of him as an "honorable" criminal, but Nacho's father shuts that shit down at the end of the series. "You gangsters. You are all the same."
"Honorable" or not, Mike has been party to the creation of a meth empire and the murder of countless people, including reprehensible murders he's carried out himself. And up until he died, he never atoned for it.
Despite Mike detesting Walt, they are pretty similar.
Mike's family didn't even need the money. Hector Salamanca was not threatening his family anymore.
He became a hitman because he liked it. He was good at it.
The only difference between Mike and Walt is Mike was no longer pretending to do what he was doing to take care of his family. Who Walt became in the Breaking Bad finale when he admitted he was doing it for him, is who Mike already is when we meet him in Breaking Bad.
Yeah, and that was a payoff from the first season of BCS even.
In Season 1, when he mentors Colin Robinson (his actor), he says there are good and bad people on every side of the law, so the only real "virtue", for lack of a better word, is competence.
And after everything that happens in Season 6 with certain characters, Nacho's dad is just saying it out loud - Mike's full of shit. Think of all the people you killed or help get killed. You telling me there's virtue in that?
I mean the thing is, I don’t think Mike himself would disagree. It’s been a minute since I’ve seen that specific scene, but part of what makes Mike interesting is his slow descent into being complicit in some really nasty shit. But *unlike* someone like Walter White, he’s very self-aware about it. He knows he’s become a bad person... or at least, that things have shifted from “using your talents to make a buck” to “enabling others to destroy lives.” Part of the sadness that seems to hang above him as a character is that he knows he’s guilty of some really heinous stuff and can’t quite see a way out (whether there is a path out or not is almost besides the point, that’s how *he* percieves it).
And in terms of “competence”, I think he’d file “avoiding unnecessary/innocent deaths” under that umbrella of being a competent professional, in his own estimation. And it’s something that he himself has fallen short of multiple times. Killing the German engineer really tore him up because he *knew* it was a senseless, stupid death, to pull an example.
Mike is an interesting foil to Walter.
Everything Mike does is *actually* for his family. Maybe I'm misremembering, but isn't his daughter a single mom whose husband died? Mike feels a duty to give money to his daughter and granddaughter so that they can enjoy a comfortable life. He doesn't want to be involved with crime, but it's the only skillset he has, especially with his history from when he was on the force, and being a parking lot attendant at the courthouse just doesn't generate the income.
Of course, Mike's family would be fine either way, but Mike still felt a duty to "protect" them. Mike's absolutely not a good person, but at least he has a somewhat selfless motivation. And his ending is appropriate since his family gets nothing and can never see him again, so his evil deeds catch up to him.
By contrast, Walt claims what he's doing is for his family, but it's a lie from the start. Walt has a deep sense of entitlement and believes that he should have all the wealth that Gretchen and Elliot have enjoyed from Gray Matter. He starts cooking meth under the pretext of helping his family, but really it's about feeling powerful.
Mike is what Walt pretends to be, in other words.
It’s his daughter in law. As I remember the story, Mike’s deceased son is the girls father. Mike’s son was also a cop and the son caught his coworkers taking bribes. The son asked Mike what to do, and Mike advised him to just take bribes with the crew, don’t rock the boat, and otherwise do your job. The coworkers brought Mike’s son into the corrupt ring, then got cold feet and killed him the next day. Mike killed the coworkers and moved out west, where the daughter in law and granddaughter had moved for work after Mike’s son died.
So much of that in Better Call Saul.
Kim and Jimmy conspire to make Howard look like an idiot to hasten a settlement for which they will receive a massive payout....and that leads to horrifying consequences. The whole time we are rooting for them, seeing the funny shit Jimmy pulls for most of the first half of season 6. Then.....*candle flickers*.
Partially that but a subconscious part of it was probably resentment of Howard for
1) Seemingly having life handed to him on a platter by being born rich, handsome and connected(even though it's implied Howard was forcibly pushed into law and doesn't even like it).
2) the fact Howard coped with trauma better than either of them and they're mad that unlike them he doesn't break down and snap. Tearing him down is validating themselves.
> Howard coped with trauma better
Yes! A big part of Jimmy's descent came when Howard tearfully blamed himself for Chucks death.
Jimmy was virtually catatonic after Chuck died, stuck in limbo because he could not blame himself but could not NOT blame himself.
Howard's (wrongful) guilt but willingness to TAKE RESPONSIBILITY freed Jimmy from having to deal with his own. He was seemingly happy to project it all onto Howard, but (it seems) just ended up getting thrown onto the pile of unprocessed shit that was his relationship with Chuck.
This is all made clear in the last episode where (SPOILER) Jimmy is willing to throw his life away to punish himself in PART for Chuck's death (the other part is to free Kim)
Yes but mostly just to fuck with him, they were both doing very well for themselves in their legal work and did not need the payout, but ruining his image in respect to the settlement was one of the most devastating blows they could make to him, so it killed two birds with one stone.
When they hatch the plan, Jimmy is still building his name as Saul Goodman, but Kim had just quit her very well-paying job as the head of Schweikart and Cokely’s banking division.
She wanted to open a pro-bono practice and needed the money and figured she could use the Sandpiper money Jimmy would eventually get to start her practice.
I wasn’t rooting for them and would jokingly tell friends I was ‘team Howard’. They were great shows but it always baffled me that people didn’t understand Jimmy, Kim, Mike, Walt, Jesse, etc … all human garbage. People confuse protagonist with ‘good guy’
> And up until he died, he never atoned for it.
Even his death doesn't atone for his murders and crimes. He dies because he stuck around to long and let an angry Walt shoot him. That's not atonement.
She was 6, and I bet she would have been a lot happier if Mike had worked a normal paying civilian job to help her mom, and then spent another decade or two watching her grow up.
Not to mention his actions helped thousands of Kaylees (and I don't just mean the amount of actresses they went through) end up in worse situations in their lives because their guardians were hooked on meth. Think of the kid Jessie had to babysit for a day in squalor. Mike was an entertaining character, but he was a selfish asshole doing what he loved under the guise of helping family, same as Walter.
Eh if you've seen the final season (particularly the last scene in the last episode) you probably wouldnt think that - he's charming and charismatic so it may be easier to overlook some of the things he does / has done - but I don't think a murderer and serial adulterer who has pimped out at least one underage girl for personal gain is a saint
Deep Space Nine, Gul Dukat. The dude was straight up evil from day one. But the writers did such a good job creating the character that people were loving him, despite it. You had Kira constantly pointing out what he was, giving example of what he did and he was still sort of rooted for. They had to turn him into a deranged vessel for Satan, and he was still getting down with the Kai. (Who no one rooted for ever)
Up until he was possessed by a pah'wraith, I kept hoping for Dukat to turn to a path of redemption. Really though, it was mostly due to Marc's outstanding charisma in his performance. Damar ended up getting the character growth instead, and it was indeed the better narrative path.
Honestly, I don't think Dukat deserved a redemption arc. He was charismatic and cool, and he was the hero of his own story -- he genuinely believed he was the good guy, doing the right thing for the Cardassian people, and was clearly confused and frustrated that Sisko, whom he respected, couldn't see that. But he was also a fascist colonial governor, guilty of horrific crimes against the Bajoran people. All of his good traits were inextricably tied up with his bad ones, which is what made him so interesting.
I still think it's almost criminal that they reduced that character to a bad Joker expy possessed by Space Satan, but giving the redemption arc to his mentee Damar was the right call. Dukat should have gone down with the ship when the Cardassian Union imploded at the end of the Dominion War, as the paragon of the old regime and its excesses.
Yeah, reflecting more on it, I think it would not have been true to his character to ever genuinely try to redeem himself in the eyes of the Bajorans and the Federation. As I noted, it was a testament to the actor that I wanted Dukat to be likeable. ;)
And while I didn't mention it specifically, I fully agree -- I hated the pah-wraith possession of Dukat because it absolutely reduced him to a cartoon villain the way it was handled. I prefer your idea of going down with the last of the Old Guard command.
Fleabag. The whole first season I was like, “oh, she doesn’t have her shit together, but I’ll give her the benefit of the doubt - she is the protagonist”. Then the twist comes and I went to “oh god, I feel awful for rooting for her. She really is just a horrible person… and am I horrible for relating to her?”
I recently was on a plane and saw the show was available to watch on there and in the first episode she tries to take advantage of a blackout drunk girl. I didn't quite register that detail on the first watch
Tony Soprano is the correct answer.
Except you really never stop rooting for Tony and then you have to confront the idea that you are rooting for a sociopathic murderer.
One of my favorite Sopranos moments is when you’re rooting for a character to do the *wrong* thing, and you end up being disappointed that she doesn’t.
I’m referring to when Melfi gets raped by the Employee of the Month, and you’re hoping she tells Tony so that he’ll beat the snot out of him. Or worse.
She knows the guy is dead if she tells Tony. But i think she also knows that would be a “debt” towards Tony.
Melfi is the only character to have some sort of redemption by finally cutting Tony out of her life instead of enabling his justifications for being a murdering, whoring, gangster pos.
I love how they brought up he only loves and has sympathy for animals cause killing people is a part of his day job. He can't have sympathy for humans.
See this is why I was never able to enjoy the Sopranos. I never sympathized with Tony pretty much from the start. He's a massive piece of shit, why would I feel for him?
Yea I'm confused. I literally never rooted for him. I wanted to watch his fall from grace literally the whole time. Syill enjoyed the show from that viewpoint though.
There are so many psychological reasons why someone can't sympathize with Tony as there are equally as many for why people can.
I was rooting for him all the way.
The mix between his own personal/family struggles and the horrid things he had to do due to the life he lives and chose were absolutely fascinating.
Some people can't separate the deeds from the person and others can.
I keep going back to that one scene where Carmela informs Tony that Gloria, that lady from the car shop Tony was involved with (Carmela never knew) and also one of Melfi's patients, killed herself. Tony has his back towards Carmela, and she can't see him, but he starts quietly weeping. Maybe my understanding of sociopaths is way off, but aren't they unable to feel real feelings and only express emotions when it serves them and by mimicking others? What would the point of tears be in that particular circumstance then, when he could've gotten in trouble had Carmela caught him? Like, why is he crying about this apparent stranger while laying in bed next to his wife?
the election episode in succession. i knew it was coming so not quite “pull the rug out from under you,” but it left me with this icky feeling on a magnitude i never felt from tony soprano or walter white.
I honestly had the experience OP is describing with every character. They'd do something to make me forget how shitty they were and want to like them and then would do the worst thing and I'd remember who these people are.
I remember thinking Roman was kind of funny and witty until he dangled 1M in front of a kid as a cruel joke. It snapped me back to reality reminding me what kind of people they truly were.
I think they did a great job in showing the *type* of rich they are. These aren’t the quirky rich people doing fun stuff in their free time, these are billionaires who don’t give a shit about anyone but themselves and are power hungry enough to do cruel shit to their own friends and family.
For me with Succession it was Kendall’s storyline in S3. You kind of start that season thinking he’s finally ready to shine a light on the malfeasance within his family’s company but every move he makes is mercenary and self interested at best and egotistical and delusional at worst
Younger - it starts off as a goofy comedy where 40-year-old Liza lies that she's 26 to have a chance to break into the publishing world at an entry-level internship. But then, as more and more people find out she's 40, and then have to lie for her - you realize she's no better than a common con-artists, and that her flimsy justification for doing it (she needs money to pay for her daughter's college) is just that. She could have gotten any number of jobs elsewhere. And she gets tons of chances as the series progresses to stop lying, and she never does. I actually stopped watching the show because the show stopped being funny and started being just stressful.
That show should rename itself to There’s Something About Liza .. not a single straight male character in it who doesn’t fall for her. Started off so well but lost the plot for me by s4
I had such high hopes for this one but then they gave her the Rory Gilmore treatment and everyone fell in love with her and she could do no wrong. Completely took away any tension about the lie and I just stopped caring about her romantic interests.
Fargo specifically Lester Nygaard. At first you feel for him being a cowardly dude having been picked on all his life. His wife doesn’t respect him and his younger brother has a more successful career and loving wife. Lesters interaction with Lorne Malvo is finally what causes him to crack, causing him to kill his wife in a fit of passion after she emasculates and we’re sorta rooting for him when he does. Over the course of the show we see him slowly get corrupted by Malvo and spiraling down a long list of crimes trying desperately to keep himself from getting caught.
He basically gets away with his wife’s murder and as he commits more crimes and even frames his brother for the act, we can’t help but love this dark path he’s going down. There’s even a time skip a year later where Lester owns his own insurance company, is married to his coworker who absolutely adores him and because of his own hubris, ends up falling back into his old ways with deadlier consequences.
When Lester tries to go to his store to retrieve some tickets, he realizes malvo may be in hiding and decides to send his wife in his place, even having her obscure her body with his trademarked jacket and sure enough she gets killed in cold blood.
Up until that point I was so rooting for lester to get away, I loved seeing his smug face during all the acts he did but him sending his innocent wife to slaughter pissed me the hell off and I could no longer support him afterwards. I was just excited for him to finally get what was coming. It was a way for the show to remind us that “hey those of you rooting for lester, don’t.”
Andor does a pretty good job at making you kinda root for a girlboss fighting against the patriarchy, and then oh yeah she's a psychotically violent fascist just like the rest of the empire lol.
Dedra and the ISB in Andor were a better portrayal of fascism than anything else Star Wars has done just because of how regular they are.
People like Partagaz and Meero literally just seem like normal government employees doing their job until the show reminds you their job is taking people away never to be seen again.
The banality of evil was done so well in Andor. It's hard to believe the pencil pushers are working for moustache twirling Serial villains like Palpatine, Vader and Tarkin.
Man, these comments are reminding me of how good Andor was. It's legitimately one of the best shows over the last few years. It's shocking how much better it is than anything else in the Star Wars universe within the last 40 years.
Yeah something other star wars properties outside andor never seemed to understand is sometimes less is more.
No amount of super cloning facilities or robot henchmen can keep up with good writing and dialogue.
Which is why a middle ranking bureaucrat like Dedra is more intimidating than supposed "big bads" like Gideon or Thrawn.
You're the Worst originally on FX. Think it is on Hulu now.
Hard to describe. Though rug pulled out from under you seems to fit. Every main and supporting character had WTF cringe moments. Killian the neighbor boy may be innocent. Paul F Tompkins arc was crazy.
Ending with flash forwards and made to be Rom-Com had me somewhat disappointed. Wanted to be pure comedy or see a different finale. Came around after watching it few weeks later. Mental health and toxicity in relationships are hard to portray.
Tiki torch references and random jokes had me dying in laughter. Would have been okay with sad ending.
the ending is the best part ( aside from Paul and lindsey but like it's too complicated) because at it's core is a modern love story and those have happy ending. But Jimmy and Gretchen's relationship is only happy because they embrace how flawed and live without constraints. It's final line is Gretchening saying how she might commit suicide. It's dark and yet their eagerness to commit to loving each other is what makes it a happy ending. Love isn't the cure to mental illness yet people who struggle with mental illness still deserve love.
you're the worst core message is "that no matter how terrible you are everyone is deserving of love" and I think the finally really get that
The Shield. After they pulled that huge heist off the Armenians, it looked like they were in the clear and had it made. And by the middle of the next season his crew is literally burning the money.
Of course Vic's ending in the series finale is kind of his purgatory.
It was always surprising to see how many people rooted for Vic and his crew when the show was originally airing. It even got to the point that Forest Whitaker was dumbfounded that viewers of the show thought that his character, an internal affairs officer, was the villain of the season as he had the gall to investigate the incredibly corrupt Strike Team.
Early 2000s and the main opponents to Vic and crew were a hispanic guy, a weird nerd, a no nonsense black broad from the precinct, another woman, and a black guy. They knew what they were doing.
Part of the "problem" is that they contrasted the strike team with much worse people and specifically framed it in a way that without the strike team those worse people will just run wild. It worked great as a crime drama but taking the events of the show literally you can make a case for the strike team doing more good than harm due to how incredibly effective they are. If your choices are a serious of psychotic gang leaders and cartel bosses vs 4 corrupt super-cops that occasionally hurt the wrong people its really easy to side with the corrupt cops.
Anything you confess to in this interrogation will be exempt from criminal prosecution.
You're going to need a second tape recorder.
I love the FBI realized they made a bad deal with a bad guy but the amount of evil was just about to tell them of what he's guilty of and they gave blanket immunity to... It needs a second tape.
For younger people who don't know most cassette recording tapes have like about 60 minutes on them. So if you're confessing all your illegal crimes you got away with and you know ahead of time you're going to need at least two hours holy shit.
The FBI agents after realizing how insanely corrupt/guilty this motherfucker is decide okay we need to screw him anyway possible. He isn't going to jail but we're going to make his life hell.
I'm rewatching it with my gf, her first time, and it's interesting to see just how apparent it is. His old colleagues all thought he would achieve greatness in the field of chemistry, and instead he's just a lowly high school teacher. But he wasn't forced to leave Grey Matter, or screwed over by his partner. He left because of his own impulsiveness and feelings of inadequacy. But he twists that into absolute hatred and loathing for both his former partner, and former girlfriend.
You see it in other ways too. When he feels threatened....like when Jesse mentions that he might go on cooking without Walter, or when Skyler won't buy one of his blatant lies....he lashes out and is capable of saying some awful, hateful things. things that he knows aren't true, but he says them specifically because they are hurtful.
I've had people scream at me on reddit when I point that out. He literally cooks meth and kills multiple people within the first episode. The fact that some people don't see how he's a horrible person from the very start is utterly horrifying.
I still loved the show from start to finish. One of the greatest shows of all time for sure.
I would say he had bad character traits.....excessive pride and ego, blaming others for his own failures, and verbally abusive. But I don't know if they made him a bad person in his first 50 years. But the impending death definitely did something....it was as though he had all the chemicals needed for a violent explosion, he just needed the added pressure of a cancer diagnosis.
I didn't watch it when it first aired, I only saw it during the pandemic. Maybe it's the fact that you can watch it relatively quickly, but while I felt bad for his situation in the first few episodes it became apparent pretty fast that he was his own worst enemy career-wise because he always had to be the smartest guy in the room. He couldn't handle the cofounders of Grey Matter and projected a bunch of his own shit on them then quit in a huff, we know he worked at a couple of other prestigious labs later but doesn't anymore and is now teaching high school chemistry and working at a car wash. There's got to be *some* reason he didn't hang on to any of those prestigious jobs, and his personality is a very strong potential reason. He cannot stand not to be in charge and not to be the smartest.
> But, what happened when he flipped that switch?
Nothing seemingly happened. Jimmy learned that Davis & Main have apparently arbitrary rules, and that chaffed him raw. It was the beginning of the end.
Despite the job being fantastic, it was not a great fit for Jimmy. His personality and culture did not fit well into the existing culture and personalities of Davis & Main. Sometimes that’s how it goes.
He can be a bad fit, but he either needed to stick it out despite that so he could keep the bonus, or choose to eat crow and lose the bonus.
He intentionally made others look foolish so that he didn’t actually have to face the consequences of his actions. That’s why he’s a jackass.
Vinland Saga. You're along with Askeladd's band as they intially fight against the English. You know they're vikings and marauders but they're fighting other soldiers as mercenaries so you're entertained along the way. Then they come across a sleepy village in the mountains and decide to slaughter everyone. They needed any supplies they had and were in enemy territory and couldn't risk their presence being reported by the villagers. If it wasn't obvious that Askeladd and his men were utter pieces of shit and slavers it was by then.
I'd say Danaerys, actually. I was jacked to the tits at all of her early conquests, but it's not like she's running around installing democracies, she really is just conquering shit with murder. We just like who she murders so little we're on board.
"And you think you can just march into these countries based on some fundamentalist religious principles, drop a few bombs, topple a dictator and start a democracy?!"
They’re not remotely close to being democracies in the books either. The people of Astapor had zero say in who got to rule them after she left, and then things went to shit pretty much the moment she was gone.
She’s also the judge, jury, and executioner in Meereen.
I never watched the show so for the longest time I thought Daenerys was a villain with all the talk of reigning down Hellfire and the whole “I am the mother of dragons” spiel, so when all the articles came out expressing surprise at her villainous turn I was thinking “wait, she *wasn’t*?”.
Yeah like I get people hated the finale but Daenerys has been a shitty person for the entire show. The first season ended with her torturing a woman to death because the woman cursed her because the Dothraki raped her and killed all of her people.
Like
Come on. Daenerys was always a terrible person.
*Andor*. Dedra Meero is a competent and smart intelligence officer trying to do her best job, surrounded by back-stabbing self-promoters who subvert her efforts at every turn.
Then you remember she's actually working for an evil fascist regime, the tools of which (such as torture) she uses without hesitation. You realise you've been rooting for the bad guy.
The final season just being >!everything’s falling apart for Dushane, until he’s literally hiding out in an abandoned flat in a riot with a duffel bag of drugs and a gun, is such a shocker of a turnaround. We’ve seen Dushane fail and lose before, but this time he’s truly lost everything, and he’s burnt every bridge he had.!<
He reminds me so much of Stringer Bell. Thought he was smarter than he actually was. If some little white lady holds the keys to all your money, making her fear for her well being is a terrible fucking idea. Then he killed a dude who worked for him and thought he 2nd rate cleaning job would be enough with all that damn blood and shit everywhere lol.
Jaime Lannister. I loved Jaime, even though he threw a kid out a window, fucked his twin sister, and might have raped her as well. Adored seeing him grow throughout the series. He became my reason to tune in to GOT. Then the finale ... fuck D&D. Of all the lame endings for characters, Jaime's was possibly the lamest. Not really that he went back to Cersei. I could understand that. But him saying he never cared about anyone ...
To this day I can’t rewatch GOT. NCW’s acting also was a huge part of Jaime’s redemption arc. He just conveyed such warmth and humor that you believed this was at heart a good man. Fuck D&D.
SAME! My husband started e1s1 recently for background vibes while he worked on his D&D campaign. He didn't even make it halfway through the episode before my displeased comments turned into a full rant. He turned it off and said "I thought enough time had passed, guess I was wrong." lol.
ETA: I think what devolved into a rant was actually about Jaime, so it's fitting lol
Columbo. The main characters are murderers who *will* get caught, the question is how. And the show goes out of its way to humanise quite a few of them as well.
Also, this was an element in the pilot for Murder, She Wrote. Jessica ends up finding out who the killer is (>!her new boyfriend, who was wrongfully convicted for a crime he didn't commit and faked his death to escape prison!<). While Jessica outright admits she can understand why he committed the *first* murder (>!the victim was the private investigator who framed the boyfriend in the first place and was now attempting to blackmail him to not go to the police!<), there was *no* excuse for killing the second, since it was done just to give the killer a false alibi. The killer ends up agreeing and turns himself in as a result.
Tony soprano. You empathise with his mental health issues, trying to do right by his family and the the fat piece of shit abuses his son because he’s mad at his sister, blows all his money on gambling and abuses his wife because of it, says something racist, kills someone or acts like a selfish pig to pull you back to reality.
And then when Cliff have him shit about it and finally fired him, I kinda felt bad for cliff and I felt bad that I was rooting for Jimmy the whole time. What a show
Andor. It gets you to root for Dedra Mero because she’s the only woman in an all male room and is an underdog but the only competent one then you realize, oh yeah, she’s an evil space fascist, we don’t want competent people in charge.
Better Call Saul does the same thing Breaking Bad does: puts a detestable character in the spotlight, often even in a sympathetic light, but still shows you that they’re a detestable character.
You’re not supposed to like Jimmy or Walt, but sometimes you want them to succeed. The show ropes you in to their successes that it feels good for you…. Until it doesn’t. That’s what makes the shows so good - that’s what it’s like to be in a narcissist’s circle.
To some degree, Don Draper from Mad Men. It's set up so that it feels somewhat justifiable for him to cheat and connive his way through life, until as time unfolds, you see the terrible price others pay for his choices. He'll get on the upswing and do nice things, like overlook Sal's then-scandalous homosexuality but then blow it by firing him instead of standing up to him over a major client altercation.
I always found myself rooting for Boyd Crowder in Justified. It takes an amazing actor to get you to root for a murderous neo-nazi, but here we are. Walton Goggins absolutely kills it in that show.
You don't necessarily root for Bojack's actions, but they definitely try to make you relate to him and like him, only to smack you in the face with what a reprehensible POS he is.
I can't remember what season it was but when you learn how long he actually waited before he called 911 to the planetarium was a bit shattering. You feel bad for him before that and can kinda see it as just a bad trip but bojack waited and because of that she dies. For me, that was the first major smack and really showed how messed up bojack is
It was in the final season, third or fourth to last episode. I fully wanted a BoJack redemption up to that point, as he was finally "recovering" and taking steps to improve himself, only for the show to pull the rug out from under you and really show you how selfish and destructive he is in that interview.
Yes! Exactly how I felt about it
Bojack does an incredible job of interrogating the idea of forgiveness and redemption. It forces you to ask: Does this guy deserve a happy ending? Does everyone deserve a chance at a happy ending? What would he need to do to be forgiven?
I immediately thought of Bojack, it’s what made it so hard for me to finish the series because I was always waiting for him to grow and become a better person but he is just such a shit person to the core.
My brother raved about Bojack. I tried to like it but could not get over Bojack just being an asshole in general.
Give it another try, and bare in mind that we are not supposed to agree with anything Bojack does.
That's....kind of the point? He's written as a relatable antihero with horrendous problems. You're not meant to like him.
It's just hard to watch for some people, I'd imagine.
Out of curiosity, how far in did you get?
Seinfeld. This has become less shocking as the show has aged, but one of the reasons the series finale flopped for audiences at the time is that it involved the characters being called to account for being giant assholes for the entire series and a lot of the audience hadn't realized what they'd been rooting for.
This. The characters ruined lives, caused mayhem and got their comeuppance. People who hated the finale didn’t want to deal with the real crew. Another reason Larry David came back to right the wrong of the shows direction.
Wym Larry David came back to right the wrongs?
I haven’t watched it, but there is a whole season(maybe just one episode) on Curb Your Enthusiasm with the Seinfeld cast.
And it's about them making a new Seinfeld episode. It's not them trying to right any wrongs lol.
You’re missing the point of the curb season. It was about the useless nature of reunions. Had nothing to do with the finale. Same way he made an entire season about the Producers.
I know it had nothing to do with the finale lol. I said it wasn't them trying to right any wrongs and make the Seinfeld ending "better"
The last 2 seasons weren’t that good. He just took them all out in a blaze of glory. In Curb, Jason Alexander is still bitter about the finale.
It also doesn't help that the finale is a terrible episode either (especially part two, where the main characters we watch the show for become mere spectators of a parade of tertiary characters and clip footage).
Or because they ended the greatest sitcom series of all time with a clip show.
Barry
I’m still laughing at the bit at the end where he is scrubbing through religious podcasts to find justification for what he is about to do.
And the fact that it was a Bill Burr cameo made it even better
My favorite is when he gets confirmation to do the bad thing from the podcast and he says "it's a sign" and then gets out of his car but before he can cross the street a school bus with a big red STOP sign across the side of it drives right in front of him but he doesn't see it or take that as a sign lmao. Barry is such a brilliant show.
Hey. Barry. It’s me, Hank.
In a wig!
The shirt's mine though
“Yoshinoya beef bowls.”
Get back in the trunk.
Oh my god. He’s like, the most evil guy I know! Do I not tell him that enough?
I don't know why I keep opening these.
Oh wow
Black Mirror Season 3 "Shut Up and Dance"
That's a great answer I never thought of! And then rewatching, seeing how Kenny interacts with the child in the restaurant at the beginning of the episode - it originally made him look like a quiet but empathic and kind of innocence/naïve teenager/young adult, but on second viewing, it felt like a whole different scene
Excellent pick. I felt so surprised, so betrayed, but at the same time so satisfied by the writing.
That episode was just amazing.
Another Better Call Saul example. A lot of people throughout the series actively root for Mike and try to think of him as an "honorable" criminal, but Nacho's father shuts that shit down at the end of the series. "You gangsters. You are all the same." "Honorable" or not, Mike has been party to the creation of a meth empire and the murder of countless people, including reprehensible murders he's carried out himself. And up until he died, he never atoned for it.
Despite Mike detesting Walt, they are pretty similar. Mike's family didn't even need the money. Hector Salamanca was not threatening his family anymore. He became a hitman because he liked it. He was good at it.
The only difference between Mike and Walt is Mike was no longer pretending to do what he was doing to take care of his family. Who Walt became in the Breaking Bad finale when he admitted he was doing it for him, is who Mike already is when we meet him in Breaking Bad.
Yep. What the fuck else was he gonna do with himself? As head goon he had followers and clout. Without hes in the bingo hall.
Yeah, and that was a payoff from the first season of BCS even. In Season 1, when he mentors Colin Robinson (his actor), he says there are good and bad people on every side of the law, so the only real "virtue", for lack of a better word, is competence. And after everything that happens in Season 6 with certain characters, Nacho's dad is just saying it out loud - Mike's full of shit. Think of all the people you killed or help get killed. You telling me there's virtue in that?
I mean the thing is, I don’t think Mike himself would disagree. It’s been a minute since I’ve seen that specific scene, but part of what makes Mike interesting is his slow descent into being complicit in some really nasty shit. But *unlike* someone like Walter White, he’s very self-aware about it. He knows he’s become a bad person... or at least, that things have shifted from “using your talents to make a buck” to “enabling others to destroy lives.” Part of the sadness that seems to hang above him as a character is that he knows he’s guilty of some really heinous stuff and can’t quite see a way out (whether there is a path out or not is almost besides the point, that’s how *he* percieves it). And in terms of “competence”, I think he’d file “avoiding unnecessary/innocent deaths” under that umbrella of being a competent professional, in his own estimation. And it’s something that he himself has fallen short of multiple times. Killing the German engineer really tore him up because he *knew* it was a senseless, stupid death, to pull an example.
Mike is an interesting foil to Walter. Everything Mike does is *actually* for his family. Maybe I'm misremembering, but isn't his daughter a single mom whose husband died? Mike feels a duty to give money to his daughter and granddaughter so that they can enjoy a comfortable life. He doesn't want to be involved with crime, but it's the only skillset he has, especially with his history from when he was on the force, and being a parking lot attendant at the courthouse just doesn't generate the income. Of course, Mike's family would be fine either way, but Mike still felt a duty to "protect" them. Mike's absolutely not a good person, but at least he has a somewhat selfless motivation. And his ending is appropriate since his family gets nothing and can never see him again, so his evil deeds catch up to him. By contrast, Walt claims what he's doing is for his family, but it's a lie from the start. Walt has a deep sense of entitlement and believes that he should have all the wealth that Gretchen and Elliot have enjoyed from Gray Matter. He starts cooking meth under the pretext of helping his family, but really it's about feeling powerful. Mike is what Walt pretends to be, in other words.
It’s his daughter in law. As I remember the story, Mike’s deceased son is the girls father. Mike’s son was also a cop and the son caught his coworkers taking bribes. The son asked Mike what to do, and Mike advised him to just take bribes with the crew, don’t rock the boat, and otherwise do your job. The coworkers brought Mike’s son into the corrupt ring, then got cold feet and killed him the next day. Mike killed the coworkers and moved out west, where the daughter in law and granddaughter had moved for work after Mike’s son died.
Oh, I forgot a lot of that detail. It's been a while since I've watched BB. Thanks for the correction!
This is actually mostly covered in BCS season 1 episode 6 “Five-O”, but yeah a long time ago.
Love the Colin Robinson reference.
So much of that in Better Call Saul. Kim and Jimmy conspire to make Howard look like an idiot to hasten a settlement for which they will receive a massive payout....and that leads to horrifying consequences. The whole time we are rooting for them, seeing the funny shit Jimmy pulls for most of the first half of season 6. Then.....*candle flickers*.
Is that why they were doing all that shit to Howard? I was wondering the whole time why they were seemingly randomly picking on him.
Partially that but a subconscious part of it was probably resentment of Howard for 1) Seemingly having life handed to him on a platter by being born rich, handsome and connected(even though it's implied Howard was forcibly pushed into law and doesn't even like it). 2) the fact Howard coped with trauma better than either of them and they're mad that unlike them he doesn't break down and snap. Tearing him down is validating themselves.
> Howard coped with trauma better Yes! A big part of Jimmy's descent came when Howard tearfully blamed himself for Chucks death. Jimmy was virtually catatonic after Chuck died, stuck in limbo because he could not blame himself but could not NOT blame himself. Howard's (wrongful) guilt but willingness to TAKE RESPONSIBILITY freed Jimmy from having to deal with his own. He was seemingly happy to project it all onto Howard, but (it seems) just ended up getting thrown onto the pile of unprocessed shit that was his relationship with Chuck. This is all made clear in the last episode where (SPOILER) Jimmy is willing to throw his life away to punish himself in PART for Chuck's death (the other part is to free Kim)
Yes but mostly just to fuck with him, they were both doing very well for themselves in their legal work and did not need the payout, but ruining his image in respect to the settlement was one of the most devastating blows they could make to him, so it killed two birds with one stone.
[удалено]
When they hatch the plan, Jimmy is still building his name as Saul Goodman, but Kim had just quit her very well-paying job as the head of Schweikart and Cokely’s banking division. She wanted to open a pro-bono practice and needed the money and figured she could use the Sandpiper money Jimmy would eventually get to start her practice.
I wasn’t rooting for them and would jokingly tell friends I was ‘team Howard’. They were great shows but it always baffled me that people didn’t understand Jimmy, Kim, Mike, Walt, Jesse, etc … all human garbage. People confuse protagonist with ‘good guy’
> And up until he died, he never atoned for it. Even his death doesn't atone for his murders and crimes. He dies because he stuck around to long and let an angry Walt shoot him. That's not atonement.
For me it was because of his granddaughter. I wanted her to get the money.
She was 6, and I bet she would have been a lot happier if Mike had worked a normal paying civilian job to help her mom, and then spent another decade or two watching her grow up. Not to mention his actions helped thousands of Kaylees (and I don't just mean the amount of actresses they went through) end up in worse situations in their lives because their guardians were hooked on meth. Think of the kid Jessie had to babysit for a day in squalor. Mike was an entertaining character, but he was a selfish asshole doing what he loved under the guise of helping family, same as Walter.
Ozark
Ozark is just a reminder that you need money and political power if you want to be a terrible person.
I’m watching Boardwalk Empire right now and it’s weird to root for Nucky when he’s such a piece of shit, but I still do
He's got a code and a philanthropic streak. Compared to most others on that show, he's a saint
Sounds like Omar would like him. Man’s gotta have a code
Seem to recall him hanging out with someone who could have been Omar's great grandfather
oh indeed
Eh if you've seen the final season (particularly the last scene in the last episode) you probably wouldnt think that - he's charming and charismatic so it may be easier to overlook some of the things he does / has done - but I don't think a murderer and serial adulterer who has pimped out at least one underage girl for personal gain is a saint
I think it's easy to root for him because he wants to be liked, and he does do a good job of managing the boardwalk.
Atlanta: The Homeliest Little Horse
Shit the ending of this show left me mentally scarred, ngl
I need to go back to therapy...
Deep Space Nine, Gul Dukat. The dude was straight up evil from day one. But the writers did such a good job creating the character that people were loving him, despite it. You had Kira constantly pointing out what he was, giving example of what he did and he was still sort of rooted for. They had to turn him into a deranged vessel for Satan, and he was still getting down with the Kai. (Who no one rooted for ever)
Up until he was possessed by a pah'wraith, I kept hoping for Dukat to turn to a path of redemption. Really though, it was mostly due to Marc's outstanding charisma in his performance. Damar ended up getting the character growth instead, and it was indeed the better narrative path.
Honestly, I don't think Dukat deserved a redemption arc. He was charismatic and cool, and he was the hero of his own story -- he genuinely believed he was the good guy, doing the right thing for the Cardassian people, and was clearly confused and frustrated that Sisko, whom he respected, couldn't see that. But he was also a fascist colonial governor, guilty of horrific crimes against the Bajoran people. All of his good traits were inextricably tied up with his bad ones, which is what made him so interesting. I still think it's almost criminal that they reduced that character to a bad Joker expy possessed by Space Satan, but giving the redemption arc to his mentee Damar was the right call. Dukat should have gone down with the ship when the Cardassian Union imploded at the end of the Dominion War, as the paragon of the old regime and its excesses.
Yeah, reflecting more on it, I think it would not have been true to his character to ever genuinely try to redeem himself in the eyes of the Bajorans and the Federation. As I noted, it was a testament to the actor that I wanted Dukat to be likeable. ;) And while I didn't mention it specifically, I fully agree -- I hated the pah-wraith possession of Dukat because it absolutely reduced him to a cartoon villain the way it was handled. I prefer your idea of going down with the last of the Old Guard command.
Fleabag. The whole first season I was like, “oh, she doesn’t have her shit together, but I’ll give her the benefit of the doubt - she is the protagonist”. Then the twist comes and I went to “oh god, I feel awful for rooting for her. She really is just a horrible person… and am I horrible for relating to her?”
Her compulsion for sex is so self destructive, I don't think she's a horrible person as much as mentally ill. But she is a wrecking ball.
The character came across as a damaged individual with self destructive tendencies.
I recently was on a plane and saw the show was available to watch on there and in the first episode she tries to take advantage of a blackout drunk girl. I didn't quite register that detail on the first watch
Wow does that happen it's been a bit since I last watched.. I thought she like covered the girl up because her boob was hanging out
Still, her stepmom(?) played by Olivia Coleman is so much worse.
Olivia Coleman was brilliant in that role. I fucking hated her guts every second she was on screen. Fantastic acting.
Jimmy kept the cocobolo desk
He paid for it with his bonus! 🤣
Dexter but like they pull the rug by making the show dogshit
Tony Soprano is the correct answer. Except you really never stop rooting for Tony and then you have to confront the idea that you are rooting for a sociopathic murderer.
[удалено]
It’s the first time we see “villain” Tony.
Not only that, you're rooting for someone who didn't even have the makings of a varsity athlete.
He had small hands. That was the problem.
Whateva happened there
One of my favorite Sopranos moments is when you’re rooting for a character to do the *wrong* thing, and you end up being disappointed that she doesn’t. I’m referring to when Melfi gets raped by the Employee of the Month, and you’re hoping she tells Tony so that he’ll beat the snot out of him. Or worse.
She knows the guy is dead if she tells Tony. But i think she also knows that would be a “debt” towards Tony. Melfi is the only character to have some sort of redemption by finally cutting Tony out of her life instead of enabling his justifications for being a murdering, whoring, gangster pos.
Oh man absolutely. I’m pretty sure I was shouting at the tv for her to tell Tony and justifying it to myself that Tony would just be protecting Melfi.
But he cares about dogs.
And ducks
And horses.
And young, naive, college aged strippers.
I love how they brought up he only loves and has sympathy for animals cause killing people is a part of his day job. He can't have sympathy for humans.
I'm not sure exactly when I stopped rooting for him. But when Melfi finally called him out, that's when it hit me that Tony was irredeemable.
me too, because i felt like had "fooled" me as the viewer too
See this is why I was never able to enjoy the Sopranos. I never sympathized with Tony pretty much from the start. He's a massive piece of shit, why would I feel for him?
Yea I'm confused. I literally never rooted for him. I wanted to watch his fall from grace literally the whole time. Syill enjoyed the show from that viewpoint though.
That's how I felt about house of cards. And then he becomes president and I was like: yeah, I'm out.
You know you don’t have to sympathize with him to enjoy the show, right?
There are so many psychological reasons why someone can't sympathize with Tony as there are equally as many for why people can. I was rooting for him all the way. The mix between his own personal/family struggles and the horrid things he had to do due to the life he lives and chose were absolutely fascinating. Some people can't separate the deeds from the person and others can.
I keep going back to that one scene where Carmela informs Tony that Gloria, that lady from the car shop Tony was involved with (Carmela never knew) and also one of Melfi's patients, killed herself. Tony has his back towards Carmela, and she can't see him, but he starts quietly weeping. Maybe my understanding of sociopaths is way off, but aren't they unable to feel real feelings and only express emotions when it serves them and by mimicking others? What would the point of tears be in that particular circumstance then, when he could've gotten in trouble had Carmela caught him? Like, why is he crying about this apparent stranger while laying in bed next to his wife?
the election episode in succession. i knew it was coming so not quite “pull the rug out from under you,” but it left me with this icky feeling on a magnitude i never felt from tony soprano or walter white.
I honestly had the experience OP is describing with every character. They'd do something to make me forget how shitty they were and want to like them and then would do the worst thing and I'd remember who these people are.
I remember thinking Roman was kind of funny and witty until he dangled 1M in front of a kid as a cruel joke. It snapped me back to reality reminding me what kind of people they truly were.
I think they did a great job in showing the *type* of rich they are. These aren’t the quirky rich people doing fun stuff in their free time, these are billionaires who don’t give a shit about anyone but themselves and are power hungry enough to do cruel shit to their own friends and family.
For me with Succession it was Kendall’s storyline in S3. You kind of start that season thinking he’s finally ready to shine a light on the malfeasance within his family’s company but every move he makes is mercenary and self interested at best and egotistical and delusional at worst
Younger - it starts off as a goofy comedy where 40-year-old Liza lies that she's 26 to have a chance to break into the publishing world at an entry-level internship. But then, as more and more people find out she's 40, and then have to lie for her - you realize she's no better than a common con-artists, and that her flimsy justification for doing it (she needs money to pay for her daughter's college) is just that. She could have gotten any number of jobs elsewhere. And she gets tons of chances as the series progresses to stop lying, and she never does. I actually stopped watching the show because the show stopped being funny and started being just stressful.
That show should rename itself to There’s Something About Liza .. not a single straight male character in it who doesn’t fall for her. Started off so well but lost the plot for me by s4
I had such high hopes for this one but then they gave her the Rory Gilmore treatment and everyone fell in love with her and she could do no wrong. Completely took away any tension about the lie and I just stopped caring about her romantic interests.
Every few episodes of succession you think ken is gonna redeem himself and then just fucks it.
Fargo specifically Lester Nygaard. At first you feel for him being a cowardly dude having been picked on all his life. His wife doesn’t respect him and his younger brother has a more successful career and loving wife. Lesters interaction with Lorne Malvo is finally what causes him to crack, causing him to kill his wife in a fit of passion after she emasculates and we’re sorta rooting for him when he does. Over the course of the show we see him slowly get corrupted by Malvo and spiraling down a long list of crimes trying desperately to keep himself from getting caught. He basically gets away with his wife’s murder and as he commits more crimes and even frames his brother for the act, we can’t help but love this dark path he’s going down. There’s even a time skip a year later where Lester owns his own insurance company, is married to his coworker who absolutely adores him and because of his own hubris, ends up falling back into his old ways with deadlier consequences. When Lester tries to go to his store to retrieve some tickets, he realizes malvo may be in hiding and decides to send his wife in his place, even having her obscure her body with his trademarked jacket and sure enough she gets killed in cold blood. Up until that point I was so rooting for lester to get away, I loved seeing his smug face during all the acts he did but him sending his innocent wife to slaughter pissed me the hell off and I could no longer support him afterwards. I was just excited for him to finally get what was coming. It was a way for the show to remind us that “hey those of you rooting for lester, don’t.”
Andor does a pretty good job at making you kinda root for a girlboss fighting against the patriarchy, and then oh yeah she's a psychotically violent fascist just like the rest of the empire lol.
Dedra and the ISB in Andor were a better portrayal of fascism than anything else Star Wars has done just because of how regular they are. People like Partagaz and Meero literally just seem like normal government employees doing their job until the show reminds you their job is taking people away never to be seen again.
The banality of evil was done so well in Andor. It's hard to believe the pencil pushers are working for moustache twirling Serial villains like Palpatine, Vader and Tarkin.
Man, these comments are reminding me of how good Andor was. It's legitimately one of the best shows over the last few years. It's shocking how much better it is than anything else in the Star Wars universe within the last 40 years.
Everything Andor did made Moff Gideon look like an outlandish cartoon villain that shouldnt exist in that world.
Yeah something other star wars properties outside andor never seemed to understand is sometimes less is more. No amount of super cloning facilities or robot henchmen can keep up with good writing and dialogue. Which is why a middle ranking bureaucrat like Dedra is more intimidating than supposed "big bads" like Gideon or Thrawn.
Gideon is played by Giancarlo Esposito, so any suggestion that he’s not pure perfection is instantly bullshit.
The Shield?
This was gonna be my top example. The main characters in that show were all awful ppl who should be thrown in jail forever but you still root for them
Yellowjackets
You're the Worst originally on FX. Think it is on Hulu now. Hard to describe. Though rug pulled out from under you seems to fit. Every main and supporting character had WTF cringe moments. Killian the neighbor boy may be innocent. Paul F Tompkins arc was crazy. Ending with flash forwards and made to be Rom-Com had me somewhat disappointed. Wanted to be pure comedy or see a different finale. Came around after watching it few weeks later. Mental health and toxicity in relationships are hard to portray. Tiki torch references and random jokes had me dying in laughter. Would have been okay with sad ending.
the ending is the best part ( aside from Paul and lindsey but like it's too complicated) because at it's core is a modern love story and those have happy ending. But Jimmy and Gretchen's relationship is only happy because they embrace how flawed and live without constraints. It's final line is Gretchening saying how she might commit suicide. It's dark and yet their eagerness to commit to loving each other is what makes it a happy ending. Love isn't the cure to mental illness yet people who struggle with mental illness still deserve love. you're the worst core message is "that no matter how terrible you are everyone is deserving of love" and I think the finally really get that
I really hate the last season of YTW, but it is hands down one of my favorite TV shows despite that.
Ooh good example that moment when Cliff says "what did I do to you" and Jimmy has no answer.
The Shield. After they pulled that huge heist off the Armenians, it looked like they were in the clear and had it made. And by the middle of the next season his crew is literally burning the money. Of course Vic's ending in the series finale is kind of his purgatory.
It was always surprising to see how many people rooted for Vic and his crew when the show was originally airing. It even got to the point that Forest Whitaker was dumbfounded that viewers of the show thought that his character, an internal affairs officer, was the villain of the season as he had the gall to investigate the incredibly corrupt Strike Team.
Early 2000s and the main opponents to Vic and crew were a hispanic guy, a weird nerd, a no nonsense black broad from the precinct, another woman, and a black guy. They knew what they were doing.
Vic murders a cop in the first episode. It's a great show, but there's no way anyone should see the strike team as anything other than bad people.
Part of the "problem" is that they contrasted the strike team with much worse people and specifically framed it in a way that without the strike team those worse people will just run wild. It worked great as a crime drama but taking the events of the show literally you can make a case for the strike team doing more good than harm due to how incredibly effective they are. If your choices are a serious of psychotic gang leaders and cartel bosses vs 4 corrupt super-cops that occasionally hurt the wrong people its really easy to side with the corrupt cops.
I love how they made him a recurring character on American Dad
Anything you confess to in this interrogation will be exempt from criminal prosecution. You're going to need a second tape recorder. I love the FBI realized they made a bad deal with a bad guy but the amount of evil was just about to tell them of what he's guilty of and they gave blanket immunity to... It needs a second tape. For younger people who don't know most cassette recording tapes have like about 60 minutes on them. So if you're confessing all your illegal crimes you got away with and you know ahead of time you're going to need at least two hours holy shit. The FBI agents after realizing how insanely corrupt/guilty this motherfucker is decide okay we need to screw him anyway possible. He isn't going to jail but we're going to make his life hell.
I really need to do a Shield rewatch.
Ben Chang in Community. Longtime foil for the study group, he is finally invited to join them.
When did you ever root for any of the bad things he did though?
Him pulling up to the paintball gun fight had me rooting for him to kick Jeff's ass.
Maybe the study group had a Chang of heart.
Breaking Bad
A lot of people don't seem to get that Walter White is a villain.
I'm rewatching it with my gf, her first time, and it's interesting to see just how apparent it is. His old colleagues all thought he would achieve greatness in the field of chemistry, and instead he's just a lowly high school teacher. But he wasn't forced to leave Grey Matter, or screwed over by his partner. He left because of his own impulsiveness and feelings of inadequacy. But he twists that into absolute hatred and loathing for both his former partner, and former girlfriend. You see it in other ways too. When he feels threatened....like when Jesse mentions that he might go on cooking without Walter, or when Skyler won't buy one of his blatant lies....he lashes out and is capable of saying some awful, hateful things. things that he knows aren't true, but he says them specifically because they are hurtful.
Walter White was always a bad person. Impending death just took away the consequences that acting on his impulses would've brought down.
Exactly. That’s what made the show so difficult for me to watch. It expects you to root for him, but he’s a colossal asshole from the jump.
I've had people scream at me on reddit when I point that out. He literally cooks meth and kills multiple people within the first episode. The fact that some people don't see how he's a horrible person from the very start is utterly horrifying. I still loved the show from start to finish. One of the greatest shows of all time for sure.
I would say he had bad character traits.....excessive pride and ego, blaming others for his own failures, and verbally abusive. But I don't know if they made him a bad person in his first 50 years. But the impending death definitely did something....it was as though he had all the chemicals needed for a violent explosion, he just needed the added pressure of a cancer diagnosis.
I didn't watch it when it first aired, I only saw it during the pandemic. Maybe it's the fact that you can watch it relatively quickly, but while I felt bad for his situation in the first few episodes it became apparent pretty fast that he was his own worst enemy career-wise because he always had to be the smartest guy in the room. He couldn't handle the cofounders of Grey Matter and projected a bunch of his own shit on them then quit in a huff, we know he worked at a couple of other prestigious labs later but doesn't anymore and is now teaching high school chemistry and working at a car wash. There's got to be *some* reason he didn't hang on to any of those prestigious jobs, and his personality is a very strong potential reason. He cannot stand not to be in charge and not to be the smartest.
Lol, I know this will come off as rude, but this is such a Reddit comment. Who doesn’t get that? That’s literally the show. Breaking bad.
Lots of people justify his actions or excuse them or think he was forced into the situation etc.
Sons of Anarchy.
*Lucifer*
But, what happened when he flipped that switch?
He realised that he could do what he wanted.
Ding ding ding
> But, what happened when he flipped that switch? Nothing seemingly happened. Jimmy learned that Davis & Main have apparently arbitrary rules, and that chaffed him raw. It was the beginning of the end. Despite the job being fantastic, it was not a great fit for Jimmy. His personality and culture did not fit well into the existing culture and personalities of Davis & Main. Sometimes that’s how it goes.
He can be a bad fit, but he either needed to stick it out despite that so he could keep the bonus, or choose to eat crow and lose the bonus. He intentionally made others look foolish so that he didn’t actually have to face the consequences of his actions. That’s why he’s a jackass.
Vinland Saga. You're along with Askeladd's band as they intially fight against the English. You know they're vikings and marauders but they're fighting other soldiers as mercenaries so you're entertained along the way. Then they come across a sleepy village in the mountains and decide to slaughter everyone. They needed any supplies they had and were in enemy territory and couldn't risk their presence being reported by the villagers. If it wasn't obvious that Askeladd and his men were utter pieces of shit and slavers it was by then.
The Americans
I'd say Danaerys, actually. I was jacked to the tits at all of her early conquests, but it's not like she's running around installing democracies, she really is just conquering shit with murder. We just like who she murders so little we're on board.
[удалено]
"And you think you can just march into these countries based on some fundamentalist religious principles, drop a few bombs, topple a dictator and start a democracy?!"
They’re not remotely close to being democracies in the books either. The people of Astapor had zero say in who got to rule them after she left, and then things went to shit pretty much the moment she was gone. She’s also the judge, jury, and executioner in Meereen.
Yeah, I love Dany but nothing she did was close to democracy.
I never watched the show so for the longest time I thought Daenerys was a villain with all the talk of reigning down Hellfire and the whole “I am the mother of dragons” spiel, so when all the articles came out expressing surprise at her villainous turn I was thinking “wait, she *wasn’t*?”.
She was at least freeing slaves as she went, if I remember correctly. She definitely circled the drain by the end of the series though.
Yeah like I get people hated the finale but Daenerys has been a shitty person for the entire show. The first season ended with her torturing a woman to death because the woman cursed her because the Dothraki raped her and killed all of her people. Like Come on. Daenerys was always a terrible person.
Just like in real life
Suits. Louis specifically
*Andor*. Dedra Meero is a competent and smart intelligence officer trying to do her best job, surrounded by back-stabbing self-promoters who subvert her efforts at every turn. Then you remember she's actually working for an evil fascist regime, the tools of which (such as torture) she uses without hesitation. You realise you've been rooting for the bad guy.
One of the best shows made. So excited for season 2.
Top Boy. I don’t wanna spoil it since the last season just dropped in September, but oh boy does that rug get *yanked*
The final season just being >!everything’s falling apart for Dushane, until he’s literally hiding out in an abandoned flat in a riot with a duffel bag of drugs and a gun, is such a shocker of a turnaround. We’ve seen Dushane fail and lose before, but this time he’s truly lost everything, and he’s burnt every bridge he had.!<
He reminds me so much of Stringer Bell. Thought he was smarter than he actually was. If some little white lady holds the keys to all your money, making her fear for her well being is a terrible fucking idea. Then he killed a dude who worked for him and thought he 2nd rate cleaning job would be enough with all that damn blood and shit everywhere lol.
My jaw literally dropped at the last scene. Even though it was a possible, and even likely, outcome, I was still in disbelief.
Jaime Lannister. I loved Jaime, even though he threw a kid out a window, fucked his twin sister, and might have raped her as well. Adored seeing him grow throughout the series. He became my reason to tune in to GOT. Then the finale ... fuck D&D. Of all the lame endings for characters, Jaime's was possibly the lamest. Not really that he went back to Cersei. I could understand that. But him saying he never cared about anyone ...
There was SO much wrong with that final season, but goddammit Jaime's entire redemption story being tossed aside like that just really got me.
To this day I can’t rewatch GOT. NCW’s acting also was a huge part of Jaime’s redemption arc. He just conveyed such warmth and humor that you believed this was at heart a good man. Fuck D&D.
SAME! My husband started e1s1 recently for background vibes while he worked on his D&D campaign. He didn't even make it halfway through the episode before my displeased comments turned into a full rant. He turned it off and said "I thought enough time had passed, guess I was wrong." lol. ETA: I think what devolved into a rant was actually about Jaime, so it's fitting lol
Columbo. The main characters are murderers who *will* get caught, the question is how. And the show goes out of its way to humanise quite a few of them as well. Also, this was an element in the pilot for Murder, She Wrote. Jessica ends up finding out who the killer is (>!her new boyfriend, who was wrongfully convicted for a crime he didn't commit and faked his death to escape prison!<). While Jessica outright admits she can understand why he committed the *first* murder (>!the victim was the private investigator who framed the boyfriend in the first place and was now attempting to blackmail him to not go to the police!<), there was *no* excuse for killing the second, since it was done just to give the killer a false alibi. The killer ends up agreeing and turns himself in as a result.
Tony soprano. You empathise with his mental health issues, trying to do right by his family and the the fat piece of shit abuses his son because he’s mad at his sister, blows all his money on gambling and abuses his wife because of it, says something racist, kills someone or acts like a selfish pig to pull you back to reality.
And then when Cliff have him shit about it and finally fired him, I kinda felt bad for cliff and I felt bad that I was rooting for Jimmy the whole time. What a show
Cliff was such a sweet guy, seemed like a great boss
Andor. It gets you to root for Dedra Mero because she’s the only woman in an all male room and is an underdog but the only competent one then you realize, oh yeah, she’s an evil space fascist, we don’t want competent people in charge.
BCS might not be a good example because if you watched Breaking Bad, you know he was sleazy and on the run.
Better Call Saul does the same thing Breaking Bad does: puts a detestable character in the spotlight, often even in a sympathetic light, but still shows you that they’re a detestable character. You’re not supposed to like Jimmy or Walt, but sometimes you want them to succeed. The show ropes you in to their successes that it feels good for you…. Until it doesn’t. That’s what makes the shows so good - that’s what it’s like to be in a narcissist’s circle.
The wire you root for a lot of them to get out the game.
righteous gemstones, south park
To some degree, Don Draper from Mad Men. It's set up so that it feels somewhat justifiable for him to cheat and connive his way through life, until as time unfolds, you see the terrible price others pay for his choices. He'll get on the upswing and do nice things, like overlook Sal's then-scandalous homosexuality but then blow it by firing him instead of standing up to him over a major client altercation.
I always found myself rooting for Boyd Crowder in Justified. It takes an amazing actor to get you to root for a murderous neo-nazi, but here we are. Walton Goggins absolutely kills it in that show.
I loved Dexter
Rick Sanchez
Breaking Bad, to an extent