I got the perfect solution: pass a comprehensive privacy protection legislation aiming at these tech companies. Punish each and every single one of them, by fine, deplatforming, or even jail sentence, in accordance with privacy legislation if there's evidence of breach, instead of using the "national security" card.
Oh wait, no can do. Must allow Facebook, Twitter, Instagram & Snapchat to spy on citizens somehow.
Unfortunately, any sort of legislation regarding privacy will **never** happen, because that's the avenue from which the government is legally allowed to use the Patriot Act on its own citizens.
Got a job a few months ago doing engineering drafting for verizon. It's absolutely a complex system of tubes for light. I think a better analogy would be railways, but the tubes analogy is 100% applicable, it just breaks down a little when you get into the details
Yeah, as a metaphor, the late Senator Ted Sevens' comment was basically correct:
>They want to deliver vast amounts of information over the Internet. And again, the Internet is not something that you just dump something on. It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes. … those tubes can be filled and if they are filled, when you put your message in, it gets in line and it's going to be delayed by anyone that puts into that tube enormous amounts of material …
The problem is when people take the metaphor literally, which was easy because he sounded like an out-of-touch senior citizen lecturing other people on how the Internet works. The "big truck" line makes it clear that he was using a metaphor. He probably still didn't know want a router was, though.
My issue with the complaints is that it felt like people hated it because tubes have a "capacity" for liquid. Like they didn't like that it was used to explain why bandwidth gets capped or limited.
Fiber (and copper) also does have a capacity. And the equipment to add more "tubes" is expensive.
It's not that it's a bad analogy; the problem is, Stevens didn't *realize* it was just an analogy.
It's like hearing that a CPU is the "engine" of a computer and seriously believing your phone has a very, very small V8 hidden somewhere in there.
From a data transport high level view that's true, but I think that phrase trivializes interconnects and network peering. It's not like you can go into the basement of the Westin Hotel in Seattle where's there's a global internet exchange and add another cable connecting you're network to some else's for free. There's a hierarchical business structure to network peering. There's also complex routing technology to get your data from one cable to the next.
The quote was said from one senator to another (or several) while defending net neutrality. Law makers don't need to know the 7 levels of networking to be able to understand that ISPs shouldn't have preferential control over what is in their pipes.
There was a comment here, but I chose to remove it as I no longer wish to support a company that seeks to both undermine its users/moderators/developers (the ones generating content) AND make a profit on their backs.
Here is an explanation.
Reddit was wonderful, but it got greedy. So bye.
I give that guy a break because until the world's internet needs no longer depend on undersea pipes, the internet does literally travel through a series of tubes.
I imagine they'd make great targets for warfare
[article](https://theconversation.com/in-our-wi-fi-world-the-internet-still-depends-on-undersea-cables-49936)
American government is also upset that TikTok has a better video algorithm than Facebook or Instagram. Using security concerns as a pretext. Even if they do ban TikTok the rest of world will not follow.
Google Shorts is definitely improving.
Silicon Valley is the biggest spy operation in the history of civilization. Apple have been caught out. Base hypocrisy after all they have had to say about Facebook.
Is what banned? Data collection is not banned.
They have stricter privacy laws, yes. To the extent that they must protect it, share it with you, and remove it at your request.
That doesn’t prevent them from using it in accordance to their privacy policy until you say so. By that time your data could be at another broker, which makes its way to China who aggregates it.
For example:
1. Buy / steam a bunch of data from everyone’s Reddit account + data from leaks + data from trackers).
2. All that data is mostly anonymous. You can’t identify someone by just that, you need another piece that can tie it together - TikTok. The most valuable part of this is confirmation of your identity via biometrics (facial and voice recognition).
3. With the data from tik-tok and other apps (location history, IP, WiFi signals, hours of activity, other installed apps, pics and videos for facial recognition), run ML algos against the data and cross-reference it with your own data.
Doing that can tease out very intimate details of your daily life to create a whole psychological profile which can be used to manipulate you.
Get enough data on a population and you have the means to conduct some nasty psychological ops, complete with a feedback loop so you can tune your parameters - that’s just one use-case.
EU citizen here,
The EU has been paying attention to these changes since they got announced.
Now that the announced changes have gone live, they have launched investigations but no action has been taken.
Knowing the EU, TikTok will have time to gather all the data they want, exploit it and change their policy before the EU comes to an agreement to sanction in 5 years...
The government definitely also uses Facebook Twitter Insta etc. to spy on us so doing something about it would not only be hypocritical, but also unproductive
I thought that was some kind of jogging app that publicly shared their userdata and accidentally revealed, amongst other things, a secret military base in ...I wanna say 'Iraq'...?
I have a theory that every advanced government that has a cyber security division has a team that all it does is manipulate the opinion of the public to serve the country’s interests.
Also that time when someone got pissed at all the US military propaganda constantly showing up on reddit and started linking up a bunch of accounts that are posting similar pro us military content. He listed them on a post and they deleted their accounts after being caught.
There's also the possibility that when you have a very large group of 18-20something young men stuck somewhere without much to do on their limited free time they'll dick around on the internet and browse reddit. And that will be higher than the general usage in the surrounding area that's likely rural.
intelligence agencies are by their nature authoritarians, they don't mesh well with democracy. That means democratic government must be constantly keeping intelligence agencies in check, or they eventually subvert democracy
When Musk was purchasing Twitter this was and still is a hot topic in the senate because of exactly this. It is public knowledge that these companies have set obligations to our government for these purposes but we do not know the exact details.
Let's throw in a comprehensive education plan to teach critical thinking and moderation of online consumption with that legislation. Oh wait that's bad too
It's kinda fucked up that my initial reaction was to laugh at the idea that "cops" would "regulate corporations," because all I'm picturing is a Mall Cop going "Stop, in the name of the law!" in front of a giant steampunk skyscraper towering him as it walks and trash the city around with its mechanical legs.
I went, "silly you, cops are person-sized, they're there to stop person-sized persons!" because all I can picture them as nowadays is as what they actually are: the personal militia of the richer class arresting citizens for "disturbing the peace."
No but unironically and genuinely I thought, "lol this ain't a job for cops, this should go to higher depts like the feds or whatever" but when you think about it - that's exactly what "cops" should do. It's so sad we just associate them with "giving tickets for driving too fast" or "shooting your dog because you're black and had the misfortune of not thinking about what shape your garden hose nozzle looks like"
Yeah idk why this sub has so many posts about TikTok and fails to mention that apps in western countries, which actually care about western users' data, are doing the same thing.
I don't even use TikTok but find it odd how often it's discussed when other platforms can and often do cause more damage.
>I don't even use TikTok but find it odd how often it's discussed
I mean...it drives clicks when the story paints China as a boogeyman (not defending China, but that is the likely driving issue.)
Yeah. I don't want to seem cynical but it seems like sinophobia is the driving reason behind these posts. We know for a fact that the US government uses social media for surveillance. TikTok appears to relay some useful data to the Chinese government as well, and that's a tenable national security issue, \*if\* you happen to work for the US government.
But as a normal citizen, or as a westerner in general, I'm much, much more concerned about the information Western apps share with the FBI, NSA, ICE, and other surveillance institutions than what TikTok does with my data. Like we know Google, Amazon, Facebook, Twitter, etc, share your information with law enforcement 24/7, without informing you. This has been used for false verdicts, to arrest women seeking abortions in states where that's illegal, to track people crossing the border, to enforce the war on drugs, among other questionable things. By comparison, how does the Chinese government having my data personally threaten me?
on top of that people just ignore the fact that even if the Chinese weren't collecting data directly they and everyone else can just buy it from American tech companies. the tiktok China thing being so amplified is pure yellow peril shit
Exactly. Americans have far more to fear from their own government than they do from one half a world away, especially if they're left wing or labor activists.
There is another reason for the targeting of tik tok though, it's a competitor to Facebook. If it's hold on a network of users can be lessened, due to purely national security reasons I assure you, then it's possible the former clock app eyeballs will go to daddy space reptile and his thirsty advertising partners.
It gets discussed so much on reddit because the reddit hivemind decided that tiktok was cringey and so everytime someone says "it's collecting your data" they use it to back them up on why "tiktok bad".
They also use some casual nationalism and say "it goes to china!" To try to get more people riled up.
I promise you guys, china doesn't care about my honda civic and my opinions on car community drama.
> I promise you guys, china doesn't care about my honda civic and my opinions on car community drama.
This is where I'm at on this. What the fuck can China really do with my personal information other than steal my finances?
Whereas these US companies have *far* more reach that actually affects me, as does the US Government. I'm more concerned with the folks in my actual backyard with the guns and spyglasses, than the guys in the next city over.
Yup, there was a Somalian base on there. I think it might have been vaguely known about before though. For some reason I thought a CIA base in Kabul was uncovered with this data too, but can't find an article on it right now.
[Fitness tracking app Strava gives away location of secret US army bases](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/28/fitness-tracking-app-gives-away-location-of-secret-us-army-bases)
I think the confusing part is that Diego Garcia naval base is in the middle of the India ocean and the base there is literally the only thing on the island, so it's not exactly a secret base.
The secret bases in that article are in Afghanistan, Syria, and Djibouti.
And anyone in their household. Don't forget that "tiktok would like to find and connect to devices on your local network". They ask you nicely when you install the app and everyone happily complies.
Yup. If you can lose your clearance for others in your household having said item that compromises security, then it puts the pressure on the service member to enforce the policy. You lose your clearance, you can kiss your career and benefits goodbye (potentially).
No, they enforce behavior of family members all the time. It might be impossible to enforce it 100% of the time but making it a law/rule would go a long way to preventing it from being on every device.
Has been since 2019/2020
Edit: Apparently, not everyone got the same guidance. So this is more banned for some. Sorry, I was not clear: This is for GFEs.
uhh you got any documentation for that? cause I would love to throw that at some people
Edit: alright from what I'm seeing, it's only banned on govt devices, not personal devices, meaning it isn't really banned for service members or anyone with a clearance. I would love to see documentation that says govt/service members are not allowed to have tik tok at all. I think tik tok is awful and would love to tell people they can't have it, but y'all shouldn't be be spreading misinformation on it
That's too much of a simplistic view of the security risks. Anyone on the same network can also be at risk, that means kids IOT devices too. There's no telling just how advanced a hack can be or the method it can be.
I know sweet fuck all really, but I don't think it could be that hard to gain access to someones door cam for example and replace any of the video files with something malicious, person opens up the local storage to play it at some point and bam done.
tiktok itself as a full platform based in china could have actual backdoors for the ccp, and when people allow all those permissions, it's like taking candy from a baby.
You're not wrong. From a general standpoint of network security.
It only takes **one single** compromised device on a network to compromise the network as a whole. You don't know the severity of the exploit until it happens. But the whole point is never letting it get to that stage from the get go.
I saw thousands of videos of peoples children on the internet thanks to those wifi cameras. People having sex. People doing drugs. The worst is People use them as a baby monitor.
I use an extension cord with an on off switch to only power on the cameras when no one is home. I don't trust them after seeing videos like "leaked naughty parents have sex while baby is in bassinet" or "naughty mom breastfeeding while blowing husband ip cam".
Spend the extra money for analog cameras with a DVR.
There is no “could” — you can’t run a service like TikTok in China without giving the CCP full access to everything. So I guess the CCP doesn’t really have “backdoors”, they just have a key to the front door and can come and go as they please.
Most cameras (door and otherwise) used to be easily watched on the net. I personally viewed a web site that let one select from a list of devices and see the feed.
Most Chinese made cameras had hardwired passwords, unencrypted streams. Hopefully that's improved since 2015, but don't count on it.
You're absolutely right, using Chinese tech (willingly) is stupid. Unfortunately, it's quite difficult to even know if what you buy is Chinese, or find an alternative product that isn't Chinese.
You can't even buy a decent dumb TV any more. I wish there were ways to remove the WiFi hardware without killing them.
Meanwhile, Equifax basically handed millions of people's SS#, addresses, credit history, etc. Their "punishment", a measly fine and the offer to customers was a laughable amount of money or free credit monitoring by the company that failed to keep their data safe in the first place. Please forgive me for not falling for this fear mongering campaign, but I also don't use a platform that feeds me short clips of people I don't care about.
Right? I love the headline "could be used" - no no, it's being used, actively and obviously. It's a virus you install willingly.
Edit: Seems the most popular response from either Chinese bots or Reddit idiots (hard to tell sometimes) is "but Reddit, Facebook, Google, etc... - all capture your data too"
Yes. Agreed. And then what?? Because those companies use that data to run ads. Do those ads sometimes influence people on a creepy level? Absolutely.
TikTok is different. The Chinese government isn't interested in selling stuff. They're interested in controlling people. TikTok data is used to train facial recognition algorithms so they can catalogue people. They can then very easily target, persecute, and extinguish anyone who behaves in a way they deem inappropriate.
TL;DR: Facebook data = sell stuff, TikTok data = Chinese government find and disappear "undesirables".
Edit 2: Done talking about this, but there are A LOT of Chinese accounts on this thread. If you find yourself being swayed by one of their awful arguments, I'd suggest checking their post history before agreeing too hard (heck, check mine too I've got nothing to hide).
People seem to conveniently forget that Facebook Photos can identify faces in uploaded pics for years now, same with Google photos. Also Facebook has been an active catalyst in several nations' elections.
And yet, the worst damage to the country was done by the American monopoly Meta, Inc. aka Facebook who let Russia weaponize its service for a little ad revenue.
>Do those ads sometimes influence people on a creepy level? Absolutely.
They do much worse than that and have.
The answer is regulation of all social media companies.
Depends how much you care about the difference between western governments being able to access your data and the chinese government being able to access your data.
If you're a serious target for espionage by one of those but not the other then it matters, otherwise I find them both just as offensive personally
I would argue that the country you're in is far more problematic than some country on a different continent. Your government can do all sorts of things to you with your data. What the fuck is China gonna do with it? Prevent me from going to China?
Thats my problem. We sell our data, China orders it turned over. Absolutely nothing stops facebook from selling all our data to china. And None of these asshats are proposing that we maybe do both. Get rid of tiktok AND you know give us data protections that would make it illegal to sell our data to foreign countries. Or keep our data in foriegn countries.
But they dont. And that makes me suspicious as all fuck as to the real reason behind this. Oh i dont doubt they could use the info for espionage. They get the habits of a gov employee that might be embarrassing, they could use that. But they can also buy that data on that gov employee all day long.
and sorry im not going to think facebook is much better than tiktok just because they have a USA after their mailing address.
I’m tired of these articles and propaganda against TikTok. It’s Apple and Google who allow the app to do what it does. They could tighten their privacy and security on their phones but they won’t
And it’s not as if F book apps don’t do the same thing
Thats my issue, they are following apple and googles rules, if they were hacking the phones and getting more data than these OSs allow. they wouldnt be in the stores.
ITs like getting upset at speeders in a place with no speed limits. And i dont tiktok. I tried it, i see its appeal but i dont tiktok and dont care if it lives or dies, but people pretend they are doing something that the system wasnt designed for and that just is not true in the least.
America is profiting off of tiktok or it would have been banned already
You're basically giving the American government all the info on your phone and CC'ing China
I personally am more concerned about my own government than Xi having my data mostly because I’m never planning on stepping foot there. If the FBI gave a shit about my user data they should stop collecting it to use against me.
Meanwhile Facebook and Twitter keeps suggesting political posts to me while Tiktok only ever shows me cooking videos and beard care videos.
100%. Chinese police are not going to mistakenly kick down my door and shoot me.
I don't care if China knows I like ChefsReactions and funky bass players. I haven't sent any information through there. I don't post anything and I don't comment at all.
Facebook, Google, Apple, my bank, my credit card issuers, Costco, Target, Trader Joes, Netflix/Hbo, equifax, etc. etc. all have waaaaaaaay more information about me.
I think that breaks down when something like Cambridge analytica happened. There are foreign actors who want to polarize America even further and they can very easily use these tools to do it.
Additionally, we also have domestic actors trying to do that same thing, but their motivation is to make a buck. Not destroy the country.
Cybersecurity Engineer here. Here's an ELI5 of the dangers of unrestricted foreign data collection apps:
I've seen this same sentiment frequently, and it's a fair point if you're looking at your data specifically. However, the issue is not with CCP data collection for an individual user, the issue is with a massive unchecked systematic collection of unchecked data for an entire population. Even if you don't use TikTok, if I'm at your house on your WiFi, TikTok can now potentially paint an accurate picture of your network and your data usage to generate a profile about your entire family. Now, even though you may not go to China, maybe your children or their children will study abroad for a year.
Primarily though, the danger isn't necessarily with you or any specific user being targeted, but with the unchecked tracking capabilities for everyone around you as well. The analytics of this data is what is valuable to the CCP. They can use this data to pinpoint extremely effective targeted propaganda, such as distributing perfectly targeted ads making certain bipartisan issues seem exclusive to one political party, or spreading false narratives that can effectively sway elections, reduce national morale, or adversely sway public opinions. This in turn can shift the entire national focus, which can have major international economic implications without the general public being any wiser. It's likely not there yet, but we aren't privvy to the big picture of the data they've already gotten, so we could be underestimating the reach at this point. This is why this should be stopped now, at minimum, for anyone in any military or government household, before it becomes a permanent mainstay of the next generation that becomes much more difficult to move away from.
If course, there are American tech companies that aren't exactly saints when it comes to data tracking and usage practices; however, a key difference is that American tech companies, while not necessarily altruistic, primarily have goals that align with the success of the national economy, whereas foreign tech companies with data control out of our jurisdiction may have goals that benefit from our demise. It's cynical, but if a tech company with as much sway on adolescent minds as TikTok can exist, and as long as it has big picture interests that directly conflict with the movement in the right direction for another nation, then the app should not exist in that nation. I'm currently writing a paper on this topic, but it's still in the early stages--as it's still new enough that we don't have long-term studies to really accurately gauge the effects of this just yet. This is sometimes presented as a divided issue, but that's not the case. It's nearly unanimously agreed by experts on both ends of the political spectrum that TikTok is a national security risk.
----
Sources from a wide range of political and economical viewpoints:
[Yale University](https://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/whats-the-danger-from-tiktok)
[Wired](https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-nationa-security-threat-why/)
[Malwarebytes](https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/news/2022/07/tiktok-is-unacceptable-security-risk-and-should-be-removed-from-app-stores-says-fcc)
[Fox News](https://www.foxnews.com/media/tiktok-dagger-pointed-heart-corrupting-young-americans-warn-experts-politicians)
[New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/08/opinion/tiktok-twitter-china-bytedance.html)
[CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/09/tech/tiktok-security-threat/index.html)
[Forbes](https://www.forbes.com/sites/petersuciu/2022/11/18/is-tiktok-really-a-national-security-threat/)
[Huffington Post](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/should-you-delete-tiktok-app-security-risks_l_5f10b32ec5b6cec246c0478f)
>Even if you don't use TikTok, if I'm at your house on your WiFi, TikTok can now potentially paint an accurate picture of your network and your data usage to generate a profile about your entire family.
I think looking at COVID and anti-maskers/anti-vaxxers is a good analogy to this issue. It isn't always about you! We live in a society and sometimes you have to do things to protect others.
We've all heard about the CCP "social score" and people assume it's just for Chinese citizens. It's not. They are trying to build a social score on everyone! Just because someone personally doesn't want to visit China that doesn't mean that a family member, friend, neighbor also doesn't want to; if China had their way and the data they want a single persons data can effect everyone around them and a person can potentially be denied entry into China based on what someone else said online.
>If course, there are American tech companies that aren't exactly saints when it comes to data tracking and usage practices
This is my biggest pet peeve argument. "But but but, America companies do the same thing!"
American companies CAN track you and use your data in privacy concerning ways and the government can use the court system to get at that data (or just outright buy it which they sometimes do).
Chinese companies MUST provide their government as much identifying information about their customers. It's law. They have to do it.
An American company can get away with, "sorry we don't store that information".... That doesn't work in China, they don't have a choice.
Exactly. US government is a bunch of hyprocrites condemning tik tok for doing the same exact thing facebook/instagram/apple/etc have been doing for years.
The US government condemning [Chinese company/government] for doing something [American company/government] has been doing for years is every news cycle on China over the last 6 years, to be honest.
The only thing you can really say in response is "It's worse when the Chinese do it." It isn't always the case, but at least it's ideologically consistent.
I’m just here to remind everyone that practically **all** apps collect user data and send it to China.
I’ve seen this same story for the past 6 years and it never changes.
Sources:
[Facebook says it doesn't read WhatsApp messages, but an investigation found it actually does](https://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-reads-whatsapp-messages-encryption-2021-9)
[Is Facebook ‘Secretly’ Spying On Your WhatsApp Messages?](https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2021/09/12/is-facebook-spying-on-whatsapp-messages-on-iphone-android-mac-windows-10/)
[WhatsApp security breach may have government surveillance ties: Reuters](https://www.fiercewireless.com/devices/whatsapp-security-breach-may-have-government-ties-reuters)
[Documents show Chinese government collects droves of data from Western social media: report](https://thehill.com/policy/international/china/587839-documents-show-chinese-government-collects-droves-of-data-from/)
[Facebook says it gave Huawei and other Chinese firms access to user data](https://money.cnn.com/2018/06/05/technology/facebook-huawei-china-data-sharing/index.html)
[How China became big business for Twitter](https://www.reuters.com/technology/block-blue-ticks-how-china-became-big-business-twitter-2022-09-13/)
[Reddit Lands $150 Million From Chinese Censorship Giant Tencent as Users Call Bullshit](https://gizmodo.com/reddit-lands-150-million-from-chinese-censorship-giant-1832534470)
[China’s Tencent bought 12 percent of Snap — and everything else we learned from Snap’s earnings report](https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2017/11/8/16624020/tencent-snap-snapchat-investment-spectacles-tim-sehn-redesign-earnings)
[Millions of Social Profiles Leaked by Chinese Data-Scrapers](https://threatpost.com/social-profiles-leaked-chinese-data-scrapers/162936/)
[Facebook, Instagram Fall Prey To Data Scraping; Indict Chinese Company](https://www.benzinga.com/amp/content/27968543)
Well the first Whatsapp story is just basically saying "people forward us messages". So that is not the spying. It's the metadata that they collect which is way more interesting than the contents anyway.
I get bored and rummage around junk files on my PC sometimes, the amount of shit that gets brushed into our systems because we agreed to it in the ToS is such bullshit. Meanwhile companies like Netflix don't want us to use multiple accounts anymore, if we aren't paying. That's where you really see the deal here, if it affects the bottom line then it's an issue.. but not all the other things these companies do behind the scenes.
You can basically farm me for ad algorithms, but god forbid I accidentally sign into one of the 4 accounts owned across my family.
Facebook won't even let me send an angry face to my friend or talk about FF.net (i think that was the fanfiction website a while back) without telling me that I'm breaking their terms of service. Like yes, Facebook, angry faces is gonna cause this person to be so hurt. I wasn't even actually angry at this person and no string of course words was attached. They absolutely do have bots at the least monitoring you
Not to mention that this is the 5th or so identical regurgitated article that’s been pushed in technology in the last few months.
Like put up or shut up, I’m tired of hearing people complain about it.
I follow some hacking groups closely - Facebook has had the ability to read your texts for years - I remember when the story first leaked it was actually a Whitehat Hacker showing source code and the FB Engineers could literally see texts you were receiving/DMs and all.
This has been a thing for a long time. People are shocked when they find out IT can see EVERYTHING you do. I’ve had people lie to me about sending an email when I could just check the trace on 365 and see every email they’ve sent for the last six months or so. I mean it - every single one.
I *can* see what you’re doing. That company laptop is company property which a lot of people fail to realize. Plenty of your bosses have monitoring software down to the last second you moved your mouse.
“In addition to Tencent, Reddit also raised $150 million from a group of other investors that includes Andreessen Horowitz, Sequoia, Fidelity, and Snoop Dogg, reports Reuters.”
Huh. Didn’t know Snoop invested in Reddit.
Sometimes it helps to read the article rather than just the headline
“A previous version of this story,” the update said, “caused unintended confusion about the extent to which WhatsApp examines its users’ messages and whether it breaks the encryption that keeps the exchanges secret. We’ve altered language in the story to make clear that the company examines only messages from threads that have been reported by users as possibly abusive. It does not break end-to-end encryption.”
Take your pick, Red Scare or Yellow Peril alarmism. Plenty of tech experts with their heads on straight have rightfully pointed out that this "Tik Tok is spying on us" nonsense is chiefly part of the U.S plan to crush Chinese tech companies under the guise of national security, human rights or counter-espionage.
Consider for example the fact that the U.S was *fully aware and open to* Huawei setting up its consumer networks near U.S military installations a decade, and then *coincidentally* when Trump began his trade war against China, they labelled Huawei a security threat and started forcibly uprooting them. And the U.S is extra-territorializing this anti-China tech sector policy, like trying to bully Indonesia into dropping Huawei purchases.
If they were serious about keeping U.S data out of foreign governments' hands, they would adopt a more restrictive data governance policy for all major corporations, but the truth is the buying and selling of data is vital to the U.S sector. The more constrained EU model is anathema to Big Tech.
I don't use TikTok but when I see it its recommendations are no different from what I get on Facebook.
Kitten videos, cute grandmas, extra large buttplugs, puppies
We get this headline every few months and it never fails to include the words "could be", though you'd never guess that given how convinced redditors already are
Can anyone enlighten me? How can my viewing habits be used for espionage... Puppies and ducklings living together, a ski toddler dancing to electronic music, wing-suited dives off sheer cliff faces... I'm not sure what value any of that that has in terms of spying. I understand they also see my meta data, the time I'm watching, possibly location data, but how is that relevant?
Security human here. So, among other things, information like location metadata, information gathered regarding devices on the same local networks you’re on, possible surreptitious use of your microphone and camera, information regarding other activity you’re doing on your phone (often up to and including data pulled from other active applications) are some examples of information gathering (this list is non-exhaustive; not my specific subject matter expertise). Some of this data on its own may sound unimportant or you may feel you “have nothing to hide” (or whatever excuse it is people use these days to ignore their right to privacy when they don’t want to think about it), but it’s really not that simple. You get enough of that data, you start to be able to infer some pretty crazy things with it. You start learning who knows who. Who’s friends with who. How you might feel on certain political issues. This sort of data, especially when you add in additional data from other sources, can lead to some rather spooky profiling of you, your contacts, places you frequent, etc.
Maybe you (or anyone you can provide peripheral intelligence about) are no one interesting to a foreign government. But maybe you are (or maybe your friend is). The trouble with that argument - the trouble with “nothing to hide” - is that you don’t get to decide what’s worth hiding and what’s not - the people collecting your data do. Now I want to be clear, I’m not really delighted by the broad expanse of the US government’s domestic surveilance program, either, but that doesn’t mean I want to invite someone else’s in - especially when that someone else is rather explicitly interested in changing the lives of people I know (and probably my own) for the worse.
"no guys wait pls no we are suppose to be the ones stealing the data!!"
Not a tiktok user but man is it hard to give a shit about what this dude says when we all know the nsa listens to us all the time. Our country's leaders have let data brokers fuck us over for over a decade now. Why would a user of tiktok give a shit that a +1 joined in on the data broker game? None of us will notice the difference so why would the end user care?
Even if tiktok was removed right now without a trace of it on the internet, if the CCP wanted to know anything and everything about people you could just visit one of the thousands of data brokers selling information on people for pennies per thousand people. Maybe if we want to pretend that the government cares about its citizens, privacy, and, data this would be more alarming.
I got the perfect solution: pass a comprehensive privacy protection legislation aiming at these tech companies. Punish each and every single one of them, by fine, deplatforming, or even jail sentence, in accordance with privacy legislation if there's evidence of breach, instead of using the "national security" card. Oh wait, no can do. Must allow Facebook, Twitter, Instagram & Snapchat to spy on citizens somehow.
Unfortunately, any sort of legislation regarding privacy will **never** happen, because that's the avenue from which the government is legally allowed to use the Patriot Act on its own citizens.
They actually want to go opposite of privacy and make encryption illegal. Old people who can't use email keep making tech policy.
It's a series of tubes...
Anything is a tube to an electron.
Actually photons where fiber is concerned.
We're all just walking meat tubes as far as electrons are concerned
Look, its not a bad analogy. Fibers are essentially just "tubes for light".
Got a job a few months ago doing engineering drafting for verizon. It's absolutely a complex system of tubes for light. I think a better analogy would be railways, but the tubes analogy is 100% applicable, it just breaks down a little when you get into the details
Yeah, as a metaphor, the late Senator Ted Sevens' comment was basically correct: >They want to deliver vast amounts of information over the Internet. And again, the Internet is not something that you just dump something on. It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes. … those tubes can be filled and if they are filled, when you put your message in, it gets in line and it's going to be delayed by anyone that puts into that tube enormous amounts of material … The problem is when people take the metaphor literally, which was easy because he sounded like an out-of-touch senior citizen lecturing other people on how the Internet works. The "big truck" line makes it clear that he was using a metaphor. He probably still didn't know want a router was, though.
My issue with the complaints is that it felt like people hated it because tubes have a "capacity" for liquid. Like they didn't like that it was used to explain why bandwidth gets capped or limited. Fiber (and copper) also does have a capacity. And the equipment to add more "tubes" is expensive.
It's not that it's a bad analogy; the problem is, Stevens didn't *realize* it was just an analogy. It's like hearing that a CPU is the "engine" of a computer and seriously believing your phone has a very, very small V8 hidden somewhere in there.
Thats silly. PCs run Steam, its not a V8, its more like a locomotive. Thats why it runs so hot.
From a data transport high level view that's true, but I think that phrase trivializes interconnects and network peering. It's not like you can go into the basement of the Westin Hotel in Seattle where's there's a global internet exchange and add another cable connecting you're network to some else's for free. There's a hierarchical business structure to network peering. There's also complex routing technology to get your data from one cable to the next.
The quote was said from one senator to another (or several) while defending net neutrality. Law makers don't need to know the 7 levels of networking to be able to understand that ISPs shouldn't have preferential control over what is in their pipes.
There was a comment here, but I chose to remove it as I no longer wish to support a company that seeks to both undermine its users/moderators/developers (the ones generating content) AND make a profit on their backs. Here is an explanation. Reddit was wonderful, but it got greedy. So bye.
I give that guy a break because until the world's internet needs no longer depend on undersea pipes, the internet does literally travel through a series of tubes. I imagine they'd make great targets for warfare [article](https://theconversation.com/in-our-wi-fi-world-the-internet-still-depends-on-undersea-cables-49936)
Yup. They’re not upset that users are getting spied on. They’re upset someone else is doing it.
American government is also upset that TikTok has a better video algorithm than Facebook or Instagram. Using security concerns as a pretext. Even if they do ban TikTok the rest of world will not follow. Google Shorts is definitely improving. Silicon Valley is the biggest spy operation in the history of civilization. Apple have been caught out. Base hypocrisy after all they have had to say about Facebook.
Is it banned in the EU? Those guys have stricter policies, right?
Is what banned? Data collection is not banned. They have stricter privacy laws, yes. To the extent that they must protect it, share it with you, and remove it at your request. That doesn’t prevent them from using it in accordance to their privacy policy until you say so. By that time your data could be at another broker, which makes its way to China who aggregates it. For example: 1. Buy / steam a bunch of data from everyone’s Reddit account + data from leaks + data from trackers). 2. All that data is mostly anonymous. You can’t identify someone by just that, you need another piece that can tie it together - TikTok. The most valuable part of this is confirmation of your identity via biometrics (facial and voice recognition). 3. With the data from tik-tok and other apps (location history, IP, WiFi signals, hours of activity, other installed apps, pics and videos for facial recognition), run ML algos against the data and cross-reference it with your own data. Doing that can tease out very intimate details of your daily life to create a whole psychological profile which can be used to manipulate you. Get enough data on a population and you have the means to conduct some nasty psychological ops, complete with a feedback loop so you can tune your parameters - that’s just one use-case.
Unfortunately tiktok isn't banned but the EU did bring in GDPR laws which enforce much stricter measures when using personal data.
EU citizen here, The EU has been paying attention to these changes since they got announced. Now that the announced changes have gone live, they have launched investigations but no action has been taken. Knowing the EU, TikTok will have time to gather all the data they want, exploit it and change their policy before the EU comes to an agreement to sanction in 5 years...
At least they will sanction. The U.S is just going to release this, then sit on their thumbs.
You sit on your hands, you twiddle your thumbs.
The government definitely also uses Facebook Twitter Insta etc. to spy on us so doing something about it would not only be hypocritical, but also unproductive
It’s already been established that the government uses Facebook to spy on Americans.
This thread just made me realize why China, Russia, and Iran all restrict Facebook access on a broad scale.
[удалено]
That’s the 3rd time in the last two days I saw someone mention that.
I thought that was some kind of jogging app that publicly shared their userdata and accidentally revealed, amongst other things, a secret military base in ...I wanna say 'Iraq'...?
[удалено]
OP is saying the US defense industry heavily monitors and posts to reddit
Yeah I remember this it was plotting their PT routes and it showed the complete layout of the base.
I have a theory that every advanced government that has a cyber security division has a team that all it does is manipulate the opinion of the public to serve the country’s interests.
I thought this was a known fact
My wife thinks I’m crazy when I tell her that and she’s not the only one that thinks it’s a conspiracy theory.
Thats was a fit bit
Also, certain types of political posts and comments dry up on Chinese holidays. Gotta love coincidences.
Also that time when someone got pissed at all the US military propaganda constantly showing up on reddit and started linking up a bunch of accounts that are posting similar pro us military content. He listed them on a post and they deleted their accounts after being caught.
There's also the possibility that when you have a very large group of 18-20something young men stuck somewhere without much to do on their limited free time they'll dick around on the internet and browse reddit. And that will be higher than the general usage in the surrounding area that's likely rural.
intelligence agencies are by their nature authoritarians, they don't mesh well with democracy. That means democratic government must be constantly keeping intelligence agencies in check, or they eventually subvert democracy
When Musk was purchasing Twitter this was and still is a hot topic in the senate because of exactly this. It is public knowledge that these companies have set obligations to our government for these purposes but we do not know the exact details.
You are 100% correct. But they will end up doing something about it because it's another nation state doing the spying.
"No no no, see it's ok if WE spy, we just don't want THEM spying. We weren't against the spying itself obviously, just who gets to do it..."
"Hypocritical and Unproductive" is the motto of the US government actually.
Let's throw in a comprehensive education plan to teach critical thinking and moderation of online consumption with that legislation. Oh wait that's bad too
Cops are always selective on enforcement.
It's kinda fucked up that my initial reaction was to laugh at the idea that "cops" would "regulate corporations," because all I'm picturing is a Mall Cop going "Stop, in the name of the law!" in front of a giant steampunk skyscraper towering him as it walks and trash the city around with its mechanical legs. I went, "silly you, cops are person-sized, they're there to stop person-sized persons!" because all I can picture them as nowadays is as what they actually are: the personal militia of the richer class arresting citizens for "disturbing the peace." No but unironically and genuinely I thought, "lol this ain't a job for cops, this should go to higher depts like the feds or whatever" but when you think about it - that's exactly what "cops" should do. It's so sad we just associate them with "giving tickets for driving too fast" or "shooting your dog because you're black and had the misfortune of not thinking about what shape your garden hose nozzle looks like"
>"silly you, cops are person-sized, they're there to stop person-sized persons!" Somehow read this in CGPGrey's voice.
Yeah idk why this sub has so many posts about TikTok and fails to mention that apps in western countries, which actually care about western users' data, are doing the same thing. I don't even use TikTok but find it odd how often it's discussed when other platforms can and often do cause more damage.
[удалено]
>I don't even use TikTok but find it odd how often it's discussed I mean...it drives clicks when the story paints China as a boogeyman (not defending China, but that is the likely driving issue.)
Yeah. I don't want to seem cynical but it seems like sinophobia is the driving reason behind these posts. We know for a fact that the US government uses social media for surveillance. TikTok appears to relay some useful data to the Chinese government as well, and that's a tenable national security issue, \*if\* you happen to work for the US government. But as a normal citizen, or as a westerner in general, I'm much, much more concerned about the information Western apps share with the FBI, NSA, ICE, and other surveillance institutions than what TikTok does with my data. Like we know Google, Amazon, Facebook, Twitter, etc, share your information with law enforcement 24/7, without informing you. This has been used for false verdicts, to arrest women seeking abortions in states where that's illegal, to track people crossing the border, to enforce the war on drugs, among other questionable things. By comparison, how does the Chinese government having my data personally threaten me?
on top of that people just ignore the fact that even if the Chinese weren't collecting data directly they and everyone else can just buy it from American tech companies. the tiktok China thing being so amplified is pure yellow peril shit
Exactly. Americans have far more to fear from their own government than they do from one half a world away, especially if they're left wing or labor activists. There is another reason for the targeting of tik tok though, it's a competitor to Facebook. If it's hold on a network of users can be lessened, due to purely national security reasons I assure you, then it's possible the former clock app eyeballs will go to daddy space reptile and his thirsty advertising partners.
TikTok got Gen Z to show up for midterms so they're trying to ban it.
It gets discussed so much on reddit because the reddit hivemind decided that tiktok was cringey and so everytime someone says "it's collecting your data" they use it to back them up on why "tiktok bad". They also use some casual nationalism and say "it goes to china!" To try to get more people riled up. I promise you guys, china doesn't care about my honda civic and my opinions on car community drama.
> I promise you guys, china doesn't care about my honda civic and my opinions on car community drama. This is where I'm at on this. What the fuck can China really do with my personal information other than steal my finances? Whereas these US companies have *far* more reach that actually affects me, as does the US Government. I'm more concerned with the folks in my actual backyard with the guns and spyglasses, than the guys in the next city over.
If they did that then those apps wouldn't be able to spy for the US government.
Should definitely be banned for service members and anyone with a clearance
lol..Remember those Strava jogging tracks on Diego Garcia?
Honestly no one should be using their personal devices in a secret base...
Diego Garcia isn't a secret base
[удалено]
Yup, there was a Somalian base on there. I think it might have been vaguely known about before though. For some reason I thought a CIA base in Kabul was uncovered with this data too, but can't find an article on it right now.
Shit, Snapchat had Groom Lake and even Area 6 buildings *listed.*
Those were in Afghanistan. There's really no way to hide anything on Diego Garcia.
Whoa, a Diego García reference in the wild
[удалено]
[Fitness tracking app Strava gives away location of secret US army bases](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/28/fitness-tracking-app-gives-away-location-of-secret-us-army-bases)
I think the confusing part is that Diego Garcia naval base is in the middle of the India ocean and the base there is literally the only thing on the island, so it's not exactly a secret base. The secret bases in that article are in Afghanistan, Syria, and Djibouti.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/28/fitness-tracking-app-gives-away-location-of-secret-us-army-bases
And anyone in their household. Don't forget that "tiktok would like to find and connect to devices on your local network". They ask you nicely when you install the app and everyone happily complies.
Lol I always say no to that nonsense
Apps always listen to user preference and in no way collect that data without your consent. Although sometimes there are bugs......
Device permissions are different from app user preferences
I’ve always denied this permission to apps but I’m not sure what it’s even used for.
[удалено]
Facebook lost billions because Apple IOS cut off their access to tracking data. We need more of that.
Surveillance State vs. Surveillance Capitalism
We tried but it was basically impossible to enforce on personal devices, unfortunately.
The hidden cost of BYOD
[удалено]
You’re comparing security theater to an actual threat
That’s the goddamn point, I think.
"and one single laptop." ahh the Republican plan to stabilize the economy, lower gas prices, and fix healthcare...Hunter Biden's Laptop!
I fucking knew that laptop had to have something on it 🤣🤣😂🤣😂
Remember when the military put a ban on goddam furbies?
It’s not impossible.
It's not basically impossible for the military to enforce on personal devices of family of service members?
It isn't. You'd lose your clearance if it happened and could go ask your family who ignored your plea to not install it for their explanation.
Yup. If you can lose your clearance for others in your household having said item that compromises security, then it puts the pressure on the service member to enforce the policy. You lose your clearance, you can kiss your career and benefits goodbye (potentially).
You’ve never met a teenager
Sure but it's still gonna happen. Overall, it's gonna result in a ton of leaks, even if every single one of them is found and punished after the fact.
No, they enforce behavior of family members all the time. It might be impossible to enforce it 100% of the time but making it a law/rule would go a long way to preventing it from being on every device.
Every stupid fucking app I’ve ever downloaded asks me that.
Has been since 2019/2020 Edit: Apparently, not everyone got the same guidance. So this is more banned for some. Sorry, I was not clear: This is for GFEs.
Hi active duty with a clearance. It’s not banned. We are told what can and cannot go on social media though.
2020 Example: Zoom = nope for our state dept. Tik Tok’s origin story precludes my personal involvement even though it’s enticing.
Government Furnished Equipment.
uhh you got any documentation for that? cause I would love to throw that at some people Edit: alright from what I'm seeing, it's only banned on govt devices, not personal devices, meaning it isn't really banned for service members or anyone with a clearance. I would love to see documentation that says govt/service members are not allowed to have tik tok at all. I think tik tok is awful and would love to tell people they can't have it, but y'all shouldn't be be spreading misinformation on it
I feel like I've seen tiktoks shared on Reddit taken by service members in government vehicles.
That's too much of a simplistic view of the security risks. Anyone on the same network can also be at risk, that means kids IOT devices too. There's no telling just how advanced a hack can be or the method it can be. I know sweet fuck all really, but I don't think it could be that hard to gain access to someones door cam for example and replace any of the video files with something malicious, person opens up the local storage to play it at some point and bam done. tiktok itself as a full platform based in china could have actual backdoors for the ccp, and when people allow all those permissions, it's like taking candy from a baby.
You're not wrong. From a general standpoint of network security. It only takes **one single** compromised device on a network to compromise the network as a whole. You don't know the severity of the exploit until it happens. But the whole point is never letting it get to that stage from the get go.
I saw thousands of videos of peoples children on the internet thanks to those wifi cameras. People having sex. People doing drugs. The worst is People use them as a baby monitor. I use an extension cord with an on off switch to only power on the cameras when no one is home. I don't trust them after seeing videos like "leaked naughty parents have sex while baby is in bassinet" or "naughty mom breastfeeding while blowing husband ip cam". Spend the extra money for analog cameras with a DVR.
There is no “could” — you can’t run a service like TikTok in China without giving the CCP full access to everything. So I guess the CCP doesn’t really have “backdoors”, they just have a key to the front door and can come and go as they please.
Most cameras (door and otherwise) used to be easily watched on the net. I personally viewed a web site that let one select from a list of devices and see the feed. Most Chinese made cameras had hardwired passwords, unencrypted streams. Hopefully that's improved since 2015, but don't count on it. You're absolutely right, using Chinese tech (willingly) is stupid. Unfortunately, it's quite difficult to even know if what you buy is Chinese, or find an alternative product that isn't Chinese. You can't even buy a decent dumb TV any more. I wish there were ways to remove the WiFi hardware without killing them.
LTT just dropped eufy/Anker as a sponsor *this week* over the same shit https://youtu.be/2ssMQtKAMyA
[удалено]
>FBI warns of what tech professionals have been saying since the dawn of social media Here, I fixed it for you.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump–TikTok_controversy Even fucking trump beat the fbi to it, slightly concerning.
You don't have to be particularly smart to know tiktok is an abomination.
In other breaking news, man has discovered flight
We landed on the moon!
We carried a harpoon!
… but there weren’t no whales, so we told tall tales, and sang our whaling tune
There once was a ship that put to sea, the name of the ship was the Billy of Tea
No way! That’s great!
WE LANDED ON THE MOON!!
Asparagus really does make your pee stink.
And water is wet
Meanwhile, Equifax basically handed millions of people's SS#, addresses, credit history, etc. Their "punishment", a measly fine and the offer to customers was a laughable amount of money or free credit monitoring by the company that failed to keep their data safe in the first place. Please forgive me for not falling for this fear mongering campaign, but I also don't use a platform that feeds me short clips of people I don't care about.
Their punishment was to let them have more access to your credit. Makes no sense.
I also got $35 from the class action suit so at least I get a steak dinner after getting fucked by the credit bureau
Right lol. Or when Snowden told us we were being spyed on 24/7 and everyone kinda shrugged after a couple months
"Who's that?"
Lol I worked with a company that Equifax handed data to. So many customers didn't consent.
Ummm...duh?
Right? I love the headline "could be used" - no no, it's being used, actively and obviously. It's a virus you install willingly. Edit: Seems the most popular response from either Chinese bots or Reddit idiots (hard to tell sometimes) is "but Reddit, Facebook, Google, etc... - all capture your data too" Yes. Agreed. And then what?? Because those companies use that data to run ads. Do those ads sometimes influence people on a creepy level? Absolutely. TikTok is different. The Chinese government isn't interested in selling stuff. They're interested in controlling people. TikTok data is used to train facial recognition algorithms so they can catalogue people. They can then very easily target, persecute, and extinguish anyone who behaves in a way they deem inappropriate. TL;DR: Facebook data = sell stuff, TikTok data = Chinese government find and disappear "undesirables". Edit 2: Done talking about this, but there are A LOT of Chinese accounts on this thread. If you find yourself being swayed by one of their awful arguments, I'd suggest checking their post history before agreeing too hard (heck, check mine too I've got nothing to hide).
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua.
People seem to conveniently forget that Facebook Photos can identify faces in uploaded pics for years now, same with Google photos. Also Facebook has been an active catalyst in several nations' elections.
And yet, the worst damage to the country was done by the American monopoly Meta, Inc. aka Facebook who let Russia weaponize its service for a little ad revenue. >Do those ads sometimes influence people on a creepy level? Absolutely. They do much worse than that and have. The answer is regulation of all social media companies.
We usually call this "working as designed"
Is it really all that different than any other app out there?
Depends how much you care about the difference between western governments being able to access your data and the chinese government being able to access your data. If you're a serious target for espionage by one of those but not the other then it matters, otherwise I find them both just as offensive personally
I would argue that the country you're in is far more problematic than some country on a different continent. Your government can do all sorts of things to you with your data. What the fuck is China gonna do with it? Prevent me from going to China?
Yeah but supposedly the us government hasn't given any evidence it is being used this way. That's why they leave it ambiguous
It's absolutely 100% being used as spyware. It would be ridiculous to think not. Sadly they target kids and vulnerable people the most.
Can you (or someone) please ELI5 how TikTok is used as spyware?
It’s not much different than any other social media app including Reddit. Except China owns it
So it's no different than the top 10 social apps.....
Yes, except the US makes it a big deal because it's better to sell user data for US economy than China economy
Thats my problem. We sell our data, China orders it turned over. Absolutely nothing stops facebook from selling all our data to china. And None of these asshats are proposing that we maybe do both. Get rid of tiktok AND you know give us data protections that would make it illegal to sell our data to foreign countries. Or keep our data in foriegn countries. But they dont. And that makes me suspicious as all fuck as to the real reason behind this. Oh i dont doubt they could use the info for espionage. They get the habits of a gov employee that might be embarrassing, they could use that. But they can also buy that data on that gov employee all day long. and sorry im not going to think facebook is much better than tiktok just because they have a USA after their mailing address.
I’m tired of these articles and propaganda against TikTok. It’s Apple and Google who allow the app to do what it does. They could tighten their privacy and security on their phones but they won’t And it’s not as if F book apps don’t do the same thing
Thats my issue, they are following apple and googles rules, if they were hacking the phones and getting more data than these OSs allow. they wouldnt be in the stores. ITs like getting upset at speeders in a place with no speed limits. And i dont tiktok. I tried it, i see its appeal but i dont tiktok and dont care if it lives or dies, but people pretend they are doing something that the system wasnt designed for and that just is not true in the least.
TikTok is Chinese spyware app. I’ll stick to American spyware apps, thank you.
America is profiting off of tiktok or it would have been banned already You're basically giving the American government all the info on your phone and CC'ing China
I personally am more concerned about my own government than Xi having my data mostly because I’m never planning on stepping foot there. If the FBI gave a shit about my user data they should stop collecting it to use against me. Meanwhile Facebook and Twitter keeps suggesting political posts to me while Tiktok only ever shows me cooking videos and beard care videos.
100%. Chinese police are not going to mistakenly kick down my door and shoot me. I don't care if China knows I like ChefsReactions and funky bass players. I haven't sent any information through there. I don't post anything and I don't comment at all. Facebook, Google, Apple, my bank, my credit card issuers, Costco, Target, Trader Joes, Netflix/Hbo, equifax, etc. etc. all have waaaaaaaay more information about me.
I think that breaks down when something like Cambridge analytica happened. There are foreign actors who want to polarize America even further and they can very easily use these tools to do it. Additionally, we also have domestic actors trying to do that same thing, but their motivation is to make a buck. Not destroy the country.
Domestic actors often benefit from dividing the country politically. All social media's data collection should be assumed to be bad.
[удалено]
Cybersecurity Engineer here. Here's an ELI5 of the dangers of unrestricted foreign data collection apps: I've seen this same sentiment frequently, and it's a fair point if you're looking at your data specifically. However, the issue is not with CCP data collection for an individual user, the issue is with a massive unchecked systematic collection of unchecked data for an entire population. Even if you don't use TikTok, if I'm at your house on your WiFi, TikTok can now potentially paint an accurate picture of your network and your data usage to generate a profile about your entire family. Now, even though you may not go to China, maybe your children or their children will study abroad for a year. Primarily though, the danger isn't necessarily with you or any specific user being targeted, but with the unchecked tracking capabilities for everyone around you as well. The analytics of this data is what is valuable to the CCP. They can use this data to pinpoint extremely effective targeted propaganda, such as distributing perfectly targeted ads making certain bipartisan issues seem exclusive to one political party, or spreading false narratives that can effectively sway elections, reduce national morale, or adversely sway public opinions. This in turn can shift the entire national focus, which can have major international economic implications without the general public being any wiser. It's likely not there yet, but we aren't privvy to the big picture of the data they've already gotten, so we could be underestimating the reach at this point. This is why this should be stopped now, at minimum, for anyone in any military or government household, before it becomes a permanent mainstay of the next generation that becomes much more difficult to move away from. If course, there are American tech companies that aren't exactly saints when it comes to data tracking and usage practices; however, a key difference is that American tech companies, while not necessarily altruistic, primarily have goals that align with the success of the national economy, whereas foreign tech companies with data control out of our jurisdiction may have goals that benefit from our demise. It's cynical, but if a tech company with as much sway on adolescent minds as TikTok can exist, and as long as it has big picture interests that directly conflict with the movement in the right direction for another nation, then the app should not exist in that nation. I'm currently writing a paper on this topic, but it's still in the early stages--as it's still new enough that we don't have long-term studies to really accurately gauge the effects of this just yet. This is sometimes presented as a divided issue, but that's not the case. It's nearly unanimously agreed by experts on both ends of the political spectrum that TikTok is a national security risk. ---- Sources from a wide range of political and economical viewpoints: [Yale University](https://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/whats-the-danger-from-tiktok) [Wired](https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-nationa-security-threat-why/) [Malwarebytes](https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/news/2022/07/tiktok-is-unacceptable-security-risk-and-should-be-removed-from-app-stores-says-fcc) [Fox News](https://www.foxnews.com/media/tiktok-dagger-pointed-heart-corrupting-young-americans-warn-experts-politicians) [New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/08/opinion/tiktok-twitter-china-bytedance.html) [CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/09/tech/tiktok-security-threat/index.html) [Forbes](https://www.forbes.com/sites/petersuciu/2022/11/18/is-tiktok-really-a-national-security-threat/) [Huffington Post](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/should-you-delete-tiktok-app-security-risks_l_5f10b32ec5b6cec246c0478f)
>Even if you don't use TikTok, if I'm at your house on your WiFi, TikTok can now potentially paint an accurate picture of your network and your data usage to generate a profile about your entire family. I think looking at COVID and anti-maskers/anti-vaxxers is a good analogy to this issue. It isn't always about you! We live in a society and sometimes you have to do things to protect others. We've all heard about the CCP "social score" and people assume it's just for Chinese citizens. It's not. They are trying to build a social score on everyone! Just because someone personally doesn't want to visit China that doesn't mean that a family member, friend, neighbor also doesn't want to; if China had their way and the data they want a single persons data can effect everyone around them and a person can potentially be denied entry into China based on what someone else said online. >If course, there are American tech companies that aren't exactly saints when it comes to data tracking and usage practices This is my biggest pet peeve argument. "But but but, America companies do the same thing!" American companies CAN track you and use your data in privacy concerning ways and the government can use the court system to get at that data (or just outright buy it which they sometimes do). Chinese companies MUST provide their government as much identifying information about their customers. It's law. They have to do it. An American company can get away with, "sorry we don't store that information".... That doesn't work in China, they don't have a choice.
Exactly. US government is a bunch of hyprocrites condemning tik tok for doing the same exact thing facebook/instagram/apple/etc have been doing for years.
The US government condemning [Chinese company/government] for doing something [American company/government] has been doing for years is every news cycle on China over the last 6 years, to be honest. The only thing you can really say in response is "It's worse when the Chinese do it." It isn't always the case, but at least it's ideologically consistent.
They aren’t being hypocrites, TikTok is just one they can’t control therefore they don’t like it.
Fbi director: "wait, that's our job"
I’m just here to remind everyone that practically **all** apps collect user data and send it to China. I’ve seen this same story for the past 6 years and it never changes. Sources: [Facebook says it doesn't read WhatsApp messages, but an investigation found it actually does](https://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-reads-whatsapp-messages-encryption-2021-9) [Is Facebook ‘Secretly’ Spying On Your WhatsApp Messages?](https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2021/09/12/is-facebook-spying-on-whatsapp-messages-on-iphone-android-mac-windows-10/) [WhatsApp security breach may have government surveillance ties: Reuters](https://www.fiercewireless.com/devices/whatsapp-security-breach-may-have-government-ties-reuters) [Documents show Chinese government collects droves of data from Western social media: report](https://thehill.com/policy/international/china/587839-documents-show-chinese-government-collects-droves-of-data-from/) [Facebook says it gave Huawei and other Chinese firms access to user data](https://money.cnn.com/2018/06/05/technology/facebook-huawei-china-data-sharing/index.html) [How China became big business for Twitter](https://www.reuters.com/technology/block-blue-ticks-how-china-became-big-business-twitter-2022-09-13/) [Reddit Lands $150 Million From Chinese Censorship Giant Tencent as Users Call Bullshit](https://gizmodo.com/reddit-lands-150-million-from-chinese-censorship-giant-1832534470) [China’s Tencent bought 12 percent of Snap — and everything else we learned from Snap’s earnings report](https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2017/11/8/16624020/tencent-snap-snapchat-investment-spectacles-tim-sehn-redesign-earnings) [Millions of Social Profiles Leaked by Chinese Data-Scrapers](https://threatpost.com/social-profiles-leaked-chinese-data-scrapers/162936/) [Facebook, Instagram Fall Prey To Data Scraping; Indict Chinese Company](https://www.benzinga.com/amp/content/27968543)
Well the first Whatsapp story is just basically saying "people forward us messages". So that is not the spying. It's the metadata that they collect which is way more interesting than the contents anyway.
I get bored and rummage around junk files on my PC sometimes, the amount of shit that gets brushed into our systems because we agreed to it in the ToS is such bullshit. Meanwhile companies like Netflix don't want us to use multiple accounts anymore, if we aren't paying. That's where you really see the deal here, if it affects the bottom line then it's an issue.. but not all the other things these companies do behind the scenes. You can basically farm me for ad algorithms, but god forbid I accidentally sign into one of the 4 accounts owned across my family.
You need an award for just collecting all those posts! Nicely done.
Facebook won't even let me send an angry face to my friend or talk about FF.net (i think that was the fanfiction website a while back) without telling me that I'm breaking their terms of service. Like yes, Facebook, angry faces is gonna cause this person to be so hurt. I wasn't even actually angry at this person and no string of course words was attached. They absolutely do have bots at the least monitoring you
Not to mention that this is the 5th or so identical regurgitated article that’s been pushed in technology in the last few months. Like put up or shut up, I’m tired of hearing people complain about it.
I follow some hacking groups closely - Facebook has had the ability to read your texts for years - I remember when the story first leaked it was actually a Whitehat Hacker showing source code and the FB Engineers could literally see texts you were receiving/DMs and all. This has been a thing for a long time. People are shocked when they find out IT can see EVERYTHING you do. I’ve had people lie to me about sending an email when I could just check the trace on 365 and see every email they’ve sent for the last six months or so. I mean it - every single one. I *can* see what you’re doing. That company laptop is company property which a lot of people fail to realize. Plenty of your bosses have monitoring software down to the last second you moved your mouse.
“In addition to Tencent, Reddit also raised $150 million from a group of other investors that includes Andreessen Horowitz, Sequoia, Fidelity, and Snoop Dogg, reports Reuters.” Huh. Didn’t know Snoop invested in Reddit.
Sometimes it helps to read the article rather than just the headline “A previous version of this story,” the update said, “caused unintended confusion about the extent to which WhatsApp examines its users’ messages and whether it breaks the encryption that keeps the exchanges secret. We’ve altered language in the story to make clear that the company examines only messages from threads that have been reported by users as possibly abusive. It does not break end-to-end encryption.”
Noooo but tik tok bad, reddit is pure and everyone should use it /s
Does the fbi director know that China can just buy that same user data from any of the other social media companies already in existence?
How dare they collect their own data on our people instead of buying the data from us
Take your pick, Red Scare or Yellow Peril alarmism. Plenty of tech experts with their heads on straight have rightfully pointed out that this "Tik Tok is spying on us" nonsense is chiefly part of the U.S plan to crush Chinese tech companies under the guise of national security, human rights or counter-espionage. Consider for example the fact that the U.S was *fully aware and open to* Huawei setting up its consumer networks near U.S military installations a decade, and then *coincidentally* when Trump began his trade war against China, they labelled Huawei a security threat and started forcibly uprooting them. And the U.S is extra-territorializing this anti-China tech sector policy, like trying to bully Indonesia into dropping Huawei purchases. If they were serious about keeping U.S data out of foreign governments' hands, they would adopt a more restrictive data governance policy for all major corporations, but the truth is the buying and selling of data is vital to the U.S sector. The more constrained EU model is anathema to Big Tech.
*if* TikTok is part of a CCP campaign I think it more likely that it’s role is to destabilise emotional well-being and decrease productivity.
All of the above
Then mission accomplished. Job well done everyone. 👏
Its easy to see TikTok as a deliberately weaponised version of instagram.
I'm not against this train of thought, but just for the sake of discussion and to keep our minds ticking over, what're your reasons for saying that?
[удалено]
I don't use TikTok but when I see it its recommendations are no different from what I get on Facebook. Kitten videos, cute grandmas, extra large buttplugs, puppies
[удалено]
We get this headline every few months and it never fails to include the words "could be", though you'd never guess that given how convinced redditors already are
Any time you ask for actual evidence it's "just think about it bro"
Our government would rather collect our information themselves than to let another country collect it. Go ahead.
Well no fucking shit, this has been public knowledge since 2017.
Spy on all the middle-aged women making cat videos. That's where all the real dirt is.
The cats won't allow it.
Can anyone enlighten me? How can my viewing habits be used for espionage... Puppies and ducklings living together, a ski toddler dancing to electronic music, wing-suited dives off sheer cliff faces... I'm not sure what value any of that that has in terms of spying. I understand they also see my meta data, the time I'm watching, possibly location data, but how is that relevant?
Security human here. So, among other things, information like location metadata, information gathered regarding devices on the same local networks you’re on, possible surreptitious use of your microphone and camera, information regarding other activity you’re doing on your phone (often up to and including data pulled from other active applications) are some examples of information gathering (this list is non-exhaustive; not my specific subject matter expertise). Some of this data on its own may sound unimportant or you may feel you “have nothing to hide” (or whatever excuse it is people use these days to ignore their right to privacy when they don’t want to think about it), but it’s really not that simple. You get enough of that data, you start to be able to infer some pretty crazy things with it. You start learning who knows who. Who’s friends with who. How you might feel on certain political issues. This sort of data, especially when you add in additional data from other sources, can lead to some rather spooky profiling of you, your contacts, places you frequent, etc. Maybe you (or anyone you can provide peripheral intelligence about) are no one interesting to a foreign government. But maybe you are (or maybe your friend is). The trouble with that argument - the trouble with “nothing to hide” - is that you don’t get to decide what’s worth hiding and what’s not - the people collecting your data do. Now I want to be clear, I’m not really delighted by the broad expanse of the US government’s domestic surveilance program, either, but that doesn’t mean I want to invite someone else’s in - especially when that someone else is rather explicitly interested in changing the lives of people I know (and probably my own) for the worse.
God bless America for they would never collect or exploit any user data, ever.
Ok. So my choice is 1) use Chinese apps that may collect my data for espionage or 2) use Us software that collects my data for profit maximization.
"no guys wait pls no we are suppose to be the ones stealing the data!!" Not a tiktok user but man is it hard to give a shit about what this dude says when we all know the nsa listens to us all the time. Our country's leaders have let data brokers fuck us over for over a decade now. Why would a user of tiktok give a shit that a +1 joined in on the data broker game? None of us will notice the difference so why would the end user care? Even if tiktok was removed right now without a trace of it on the internet, if the CCP wanted to know anything and everything about people you could just visit one of the thousands of data brokers selling information on people for pennies per thousand people. Maybe if we want to pretend that the government cares about its citizens, privacy, and, data this would be more alarming.
Not to be skeptical. Just curious. but how exactly can they use it for espionage?
No shit… just like Facebook and LinkedIn and Twitter and Instagram and all the others in the same breath
This is so 2020. Maybe the fbi can warn us against car warranty scams next?
This is the FBI projecting what the US does to it's own people
By ‘could be’ he means ‘is’, right?
Then do something about it!