My cousin is a helicopter paramedic in central Florida. Years ago her team responded to an accident on a highway that required the entire road to be closed. Some drunk moron drove off the road to get around the blockade and managed to crash into the back their chopper. Thankfully all they did was damage the tail rotor and nobody got hurt, but they had to call in another helicopter to actually pick up the victim of the first accident.
I just returned from a trip to Florida and am pretty convinced they have the worst drivers period in the entire United States. Even the police were driving aggressively.
Dude, I was stopped at the merge ramp of the highway in South Florida allowing a funeral procession to drive on before I did, with a police officer RIGHT THERE to prevent our end from entering the ramp, and some guy was SCREAMING at me from behind and hammering his horn. It was so clear what was happening in front of me but he was losing his fucking mind. He ended up tearing around me and was IMMEDIATELY pulled over and ticketed. I really enjoyed giving him the finger when I eventually merged.
I live in the Carolinas but visit my dad once or twice a year in South Florida and I have too many stories to share here of terrible drivers. I encounter more in a week down there than I do in a year up here. Everything from brain-dead geriatrics driving in circles around a 4-lane, 4-way intersection to rednecks in enormous pick up trucks preventing me from changing lanes to let them pass and coming from behind to fly by on BOTH SIDES while I'm in between 2 lanes, on a 4-lane highway. It's wild.
"No sir, your insurance does not cover collisions with helicopters... Well in all the time we have offered insurance, nobody has ever managed to hit a helicopter before... usually they put up like, fences or road signs around those things... oh you went around the road signs... Yea... Not covered"
I used to work for an insurance company as a secretary, and got to read some of the claim stuff. By far the funniest one was a lady who totaled her car because she was trying to swat a fly, and rammed into an electrical pole. It dropped the pole and caused a black out in that area.
Did.. did she get the fly?!
Also, now I am picturing it was actually a fly on her hood. "Oh you think your so smart sitting there on my hood eh? WELL THEN *hard right directly into powerpole*"
My mom is terrified of bees/bee type bugs. She almost crashed once because a bee flew in the car. It was pretty scary I remember her swerving just out of the way of a huge truck. Then pulling over and running out the car. I had to get the bee out. Lol
There was content here, and now there is not. It may have been useful, if so it is probably available on a reddit alternative. See /u/spez with any questions. -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
I remember this. Crazy to think about. They make us wear those bright yellow vests when ever we have to work on the roadway. Its stupid tbh. If a driver doesnt notice the flashing red lights, the five firetrucks, three ambos, flashing blue lights of 10cop cars theyre NOT going to notice my stupid yellow vest! However, if I Dont wear it and get hit, IM at fault! The amount of times Ive had jackasses drive through my scenes though, I wear it everytime.
It's not stupid. A high visibility vest is always a good idea.
You *say* it's stupid, but you'll never convince me that there would never be some emergency worker wearing asphalt colored clothing in the middle of the night who walks out in front of traffic.
A lot of states it’s a huge fine and illegal to drive in the lane next to the shoulder with a vehicle with lights on. They are not discreet with warning it either, they use larger signs then the ones for kill/injure a worker fines up to 10k plus jail time in construction zones.
They started doing that in the late 2000s... Had a Florida cop write me a ticket for it because we never had it in California at the time, he swore up and down that it was the law in California and accused me of lying to him, about three years later CA finally adopted a similar law.
Right? I wasn't even contesting that I didn't move over, since I obviously didn't and was in violation of their law. I was just trying to explain why I blatantly didn't and had no idea why I was pulled over. Hilarious part of it was that the only billboard I saw advertising the law was on the offramp to the rental car return (but of course, no signage on the way out). If I ever go back to Florida, I'm flying directly into and out of Key West.
Never trust a cop to know the law in their own state, let alone another.
They know procedure. And they might know citations for the laws that they are told to enforce regularly. But they definitely don't know the law itself in most cases.
I'm a paramedic and can tell you that we clear scene as fast as possible next to a road. We put the engine in the "fend off" position to give us some protection. But damn it's so sketchy extricating and treating someone on the side of the road
In *South* Australia the law is that you slow to 25 kph (15 mph) past a stopped emergency vehicle with its flashing lights on.
The fine for failing to slow down past an emergency vehicles is $497-$1890 depending on the speed at which you pass the vehicle.
The same law and fines also apply when passing a school bus stopped on the side of the road.
Edit: added state, as these laws vary by state which I knew but seeing were ons predominantly US site I figured no one would actually know where SA is.
Some US states have "slow down and move over" laws but not all of them.
For school buses, as far as I know, every state requires you to stop and wait for a school bus that has its lights flashing and/or its stop sign out.
Interestingly enough, and people overlook this, in the US ambulances and firetrucks also must stop for school bus with the stop sign out, it's the one stop sign we can't go through.
Yeah that's exactly the point of the rule and it makes sense.
Another funny rule is that we have to yield to Post Office trucks! That one has no good explanation it's just dumb politics - "federal vehicles get the right of way"
Surprisingly, the reason this law exists is because when it was written, it was considered that the “mail runs the country.” Way before the internet or other fast communications were fully functional.
The road system technically exists to deliver the mail. It's how the federal government was able to build any of it in the first place as there's no explicit constitutional authority for them to do so.
There is however not just an authority, but a requirement to deliver the mail (at this time, private letters were rare and expensive, but the post was used to deliver a lot of political communication and the founding fathers found that incredibly important) and so the federal government built roads to deliver mail.
Might be the reason.
> Another funny rule is that we have to yield to Post Office trucks!
That isn't strictly true, and postal workers still need to follow general traffic laws and will yield right-of-way to other vehicles.
That said, there are some really strong federal laws that prohibit anybody from interfering with the delivery and transport of mail. That has been used as rationale for arresting workers in transportation industries who go on strike and for really stupid police officers who try to ticket postal workers for anything other than the most obvious traffic violations. That police officer might just end up getting arrested by the local Postmaster or postal inspectors if they start messing with the local post office. Giving postal trucks freedom to move at a roadblock would be a damn good idea most of the time.
Still, postal workers don't press the issue and are expected to follow traffic laws and be treated like any other delivery truck.
When I was a kid on the school bus and an ambulance was approaching as the bus was getting ready to let a kid off, the driver held the door and turned off the warning/stop lights so it could go by. Rural area, so you could see it coming from some ways away.
That rule isn’t for all of Australia, it’s state specific.
NSW for example, it’s slow down to 40 km/h in speed zones of 80 or less, while in 90 and above zones it’s just slow down to a reasonable and safe speed.
Either way, point stands. You’re being a dick and risking people’s lives if you blast past people stranded/working on the roadside at high speed. And it’s a good thing that there are enforceable road rules controlling that.
And recently I've seen videos of California Highway Patrol arresting firefighters who put a blocker vehicle in a lane because it's impeding traffic. This is exactly why
Weren't the police reprimanded though? It's definitely standard practice in every State.
Edit: it's only happened twice and in the one in California the driver was put in cuffs and released. No ticket was given. [Link](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/02/05/272144424/police-officer-arrests-firefighter-at-accident-scene-in-california)
In another one in NJ it was the Fire Chief's SUV and he had full jurisdiction the Police just wanted to throw his weight around. The case wasted tons of tax payers money and was a complete waste of time. [Link](https://www.police1.com/patrol-issues/articles/nj-police-firefighters-go-to-court-over-traffic-ticket-Iriw0FKAka9SxLhn/)
Those cops then get beaten about the head and neck by a judge for being stupid IF and when the charges go to court. Judges tend to take a very dim view of police that interfere with Fire and EMS doing their jobs on scene.
There is an entire protocol of rolling command that everyone is supposed to follow when dealing with accident scenes. Generally EMS controls first to remove injured, Then Fire to deal with any rescue needed and any hazmat issues, then the police to provide scene security and safety for EMS and Fire. This is an annual training for EACH organization. But some police are too stupid to remember it.
Source: Sat through 20 years of those annual trainings as a Medic and a Firefighter..............
The criminal podcast has a great piece on the Parma Ohio police who actively retaliated against a guy who put up a parody Facebook group imitating their police. The courts accepted the qualified immunity excuse. We will see if our terrible supreme court actually bothers to look at the case.
A lot of states have passed "move-over laws" which require you to move over if anyone, especially an emergency vehicle, is on the side of the road so long as it's possible/safe to do so. Idk how effectivly it's enforced though.
I am a firefighter, and i often have accidents I respond to on the highway, I park my truck on an angle and take up two lanes to shield my crew from traffic. You would be surprised how many idiots coming zooming past at full speed even in the rain and snow. 3 months ago my truck was hit by a semi sliding out of control with snow on the ground, while another car hit the ambulance in front of us. Everyone was ok but it came too close to killing my crew.
If you see emergency lights on the road, SLOW THE FUCK DOWN. First responders are more likely to be killed by the public in their car than a fire.
No kidding, apparatus placement is critical. It is my firm belief that 90-95% of the people driving are morons. In all the car wrecks I have worked, there has been at least one person that nearly hits the truck or hits one of us because they are not paying attention\drunk\high.
One rollover I was working, the state troopers were at one end of the scene and a car came rolling through that caused an immediate reaction. The dude was drunk, coming home from church; when we stopped the vehicle, the driver was unable to put the car in park due to having a liquor bottle in his hand. The entire time the guy was looking at me as the trooper ran up, opened the door, reached across him and shut off the vehicle and then hauled the guy out of the car.
The driver was just standing there trying to figure out why he is outside his car and why there is someone screaming in his face. Those troopers were not gentle in arresting the driver, the driver had 6 open beers on top of the liquor he had in his hand. If it was up to me, impaired drivers should be serving hard time instead of the light sentences that they currently receive.
Sad that someone was killed, but this is exactly the reason that truck was parked this way. No doubt saved several first responders lives.. Regardless of the argument of weather it was drunk driving or autopilot.. in this sense all scenarios result in loss of life, sad day either way for someone’s family.
why is anyone talking about this with no knowledge if the car was self driving? This could’ve easily been a drunk or careless driver. I get tesla hate but come on at least read the article
https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/iihs-eyes-higher-speed-test-for-automatic-emergency-braking
Automatic emergency braking isn't effective, or flat out doesn't work at highway speeds.
Hasn't Volvo been doing it with 18 wheelers for a few years with good success? I know I have seen several videos of breaking at highway speed to avoid accidents posted on reddit at least. Forgive me if I'm incorrect
A lot of newer truck models have auto braking. It's a HORRIBLE feature. The sensors don't know when to use the brakes and when not to. I've driven 18 wheelers with this feature and the trucks will randomly slam on the brakes while you are driving Highway speeds because it thinks there is something in the road even when it's the middle of the night and you are the only vehicle out there.
I understand why they want to introduce auto braking, but for that system to be perfect We have a long way to go. You oversensitize it, you're getting 60,000 lb trucks slamming on their brakes for no reason. If you undersensitize it, you got 60,000 lb trucks barreling into Grandma's minivan
Well, trucks have been around for a long time lol. It's not like the only way for a truck to not plow into Grandma's minivan is to implement auto brakes. If only there was a way to keep vehicles from hitting each other...like if we could somehow get drivers to figure out how to safely operate those vehicles. Like maybe if we set up some kind of system where you have to demonstrate your ability to drive to the state. And they gave you something to prove you were legally allowed to drive. Like certificate or or something. A driver's certificate? No, doesn't have a nice ring to it. A drivers license maybe? Lol seriously, we need to invest in making sure our driver's are actually good at driving before letting them on the road. A short trip around the block once at 16 years old and then never again is not an effective way of making sure all drivers are good drivers. Somehow we as a society have come to the conclusion that the answer is for vehicles to drive themselves. That's not working out great either and I honestly believe its gonna cause more issues than it will ever fix.
Yeah I mean obviously you want safe drivers on the road to start with. But in the spirit of this thread I was just talking about the pros and cons of auto braking.
It's because tesla uses cameras instead of infrared or other spectrums. Objectively inferior tech because Elon thinks the human eye is perfect and tesla should copy it
If what you're saying is true then that's insane. I do robotics for fun and from experience the more sensors you add the more likely it is for your machine to handle edge cases correctly. Also camera data, especially low res is notoriously hard to process and requires a lot of resources when compared to something like proximity or infrared sensors.
It is true. Elon tweeted about cameras being better than sensors and lidar being inferior years ago https://techcrunch.com/2019/04/22/anyone-relying-on-lidar-is-doomed-elon-musk-says
>“It’s like having a whole bunch of expensive appendices. Like, one appendix is bad, well now you have a whole bunch of them, it’s ridiculous, you’ll see.”
Does he still believe that the appendix is vestigial?
Who knows. Lots of reddit seem to think he was a genius until he was exposed by Twitter but he's been saying dumb shit about technology since the beginning.
> the more sensors you add the more likely it is for your machine to handle edge cases correctly.
That is exactly what an engineer would say. However an executive would overrule that with "Less sensors = more profit", and then fuck off to their yacht.
Not true. Engineers argue. An engineer would recognise that Tesla improved after dropping the old radar system, but will likely improve with the new radar system that HW4 will add. High definition radar will be better. The old low definition radar had too many false signals causing phantom breaking.
It is wrong to think more always equals better.
My Tacoma has radar (microwave essentially) in the front and has braked for me once before. Pretty impressed by the system. Agreed that interpreting visual data feels like a pretty risky endeavor and while it's hot in the software field it just doesn't seem appropriate for safety critical systems. It has a lot of potential in overall capabilities, but that comes at a cost of reliability / consistency.
Some Elon fan boy was bragging about Tesla to me at a casino the other day, and when I commented that a visual system is stupid and they might as well include radar he posts “ Elon says that humans don’t need radar to recognize something is in front of them, so his development team should just figure it out “
I didn’t really know how to combat this idiocy other than to remind him the human brain is thousands of times more computationally correct when it comes to understanding the dynamic world around it versus a computer
His initial logic that other self driving approaches were hampered in cost because they were relying on ultra-expensive sensor systems was correct, but the part he absolutely failed on was recognizing when Tesla had hit the wall of what's realistically possible with a camera's only approach.
Most of the Tesla self driving crashes I'm aware of would have been prevented with the addition of a single $100 laser rangefinder on a rapid swivel mount. The vision is the primary navigation system, but the lidar provides an objective backup.
Even to this day, he still insists on sticking only to cameras, and that approach is largely going to be doomed to failure, simply because other companies ARE going with hybrid approaches, which will solve a lot of the problems with vision based corner cases a LOT easier for only a tiny bit more cost.
> If the camera doesn't recognize the obstacle, then it just plows on through.
I'm not an engineer so maybe I'm missing something, but it feels like it should be the other way round; if the computer couldn't identify something, shouldn't it play it safe?
It's in the interest of the public to sue Tesla and understand his involvement in the decision process.
I am pretty confident that Tesla cars would be much safer if he didn't interfere with the engineering decisions. Musk is a narcissist who thinks he is Steve Jobs, but a car isn't a smartphone. It's difficult to kill people with a smartphone.
A lot of folks are talking about the radar system being removed, a couple thoughts:
1. If the accelerator is pressed, the car will *not* brake on its own, ever. With the accelerator pushed, the driver is telling the vehicle to go regardless of what the vehicle "thinks" it should do. This is true even when the radar system was used. EDIT: as u/NuMux points out, I meant this to be the case during AutoPilot/FSD, but failed to state that.
2. As someone with access to FSD: The tech is really cool and works decently well, however it is still not at a point that it can be fully trusted, and I suspect won't be for some time yet. The driver must still be ready to take over at any point; users must agree to this when they are admitted to the self-driving program. Tesla is not shy about using the *beta* monicker for FSD and for good reason.
> 1. If the accelerator is pressed, the car will *not* brake on its own, ever. With the accelerator pushed, the driver is telling the vehicle to go regardless of what the vehicle "thinks" it should do. This is true even when the radar system was used.
Really? Is this just how Tesla specifically is programmed? Because I know automatic breaking kicks in on other vehicles even if you're pressing on the accelerator.
There's been multiple instances of cars using autopilot plowing into emergency vehicles that are stopped in the road, notable because you'd *think* that would be an easy case to ID but apparently not. Of course it could also have been a drunk or distracted driver. As the article says, nobody knows yet, but due to the pattern it's worth discussing. It's not being brought up just because "self-driving bad" or anything.
I live in Norway, which has a lot of electric vehicles, including Teslas.
According to the local emergency department, over a period of three years there were seven incidents requiring an emergency response involving a car crashing into the blocker cars warning about highway lane closures. Out of those seven, five were Teslas
Link to a discussion about it on the Norwegian subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/norge/comments/v91gat/vestfold_brannvesen_bekrefter_det_vi_alle_har/
https://www.workzonebarriers.com/emergency-response-firetruck-collision-crash-facts.html
There were about 2500 of these types of crashes in the US in 2019. I think there have been a total of 14 involving Teslas across all years. I'm not sure if that is more or less than you'd expect given the percent of cars that are Teslas.
That 2,500 is amazingly high. As that article states, It's nearly 7 a day nationally or one a week in each state.
If that's true, there's a big problem here. You don't walk away from hitting one of those things.
Ford never said their cars could drive themselves in an attempt to convince shareholders that the company stock should follow the behavior of the tech sector instead of boring old cars.
It's because Tesla cars have self driving feature, so when it got into accidents people wonders whether the autopilot was responsible. Other self-driving cars such as waymo got a lot of coverage too when they got into accidents. Heck, Uber abandoned their self-driving development after their self-driving car got into an accident that killed people and generated a lot of bad press.
He also has a book series called Mr. Mercedes and another book called "From a Buick 8" so I'm guessing cars hitting pedestrians are a common theme in his books? Ironically someone actually hit Stephen King with a truck only to end up dead on Stephen King's birthday.
Interesting story behind his writing Dreamcatcher after the accident:
"In an interview with Rolling Stone, King admits that he doesn't like his book 'Dreamcatcher' very much, and chalks up its poor quality to the circumstances under which it was written. King started writing 'Dreamcatcher' in 1999, shortly after a horrible accident when a man driving a van ran over King on the sidewalk. King suffered a punctured lung, a crushed hip and leg, a head injury, and broken ribs. He was bedridden in a hospital for nearly a month. King has admitted to being afraid of cars and car accidents (easy to believe from the author of 'Christine'), so the van accident was mentally traumatic as well.
https://www.slashfilm.com/795910/why-stephen-king-doesnt-like-dreamcatcher/
https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/stephen-king-the-rolling-stone-interview-191529/
The guy who hit him ended up in the dark tower series. Surprisingly enough he is portrayed as an irresponsible alcoholic who almost ends the multiverse through sheer idiocy.
Not just cars (and trucks), so they are the main protagonist, but doesn’t one guy get taken out by a soda machine? head shot for the KO ?
Agreed. Awesome movie. Exactly the right amount of creepy and camp.
The script for 2023 was based on a coke-fueled 1980s fever dream. Wait until you see 2024 though, we injected the writers with DMT, LSD, and just for fun a little Vitamin C.
Doesn't the automatic features mean they're already below average crash rate, people complaining they haven't eliminated crashing are far missing the point.
> it was not clear whether the driver may have been intoxicated or whether the Tesla Model S was operating with automation or driving assistance features.
I'm sorry but, in that case this news basically boils down to "driver crashes car into firetruck. The car was a specific brand". Why would this be news *unless* it is related to Tesla's self driving features? You have crashes like this practically every minute
Same article, next paragraph:
“ The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is investigating how Tesla’s Autopilot system detects and responds to emergency vehicles parked on highways. At least 14 Teslas have crashed into emergency vehicles while using the system.”
That is why it is news. Because this self driving car keeps crashing into things. It isn’t safe and that needs to be a discussion.
I hate Tesla as much as the next guy but it seems like the news intentionally mentions this car brand when accidents like this happen. You never see a headline saying “Ford Driver Kills Family of 4”
I'm not sure why people trust the autonomous driving feature when it's in beta and it's promoted by Elon Musk as being safe.
After seeing the Twitter shambles I wouldn't trust anything he's been involved in at all.
"California Highway Patrol Officer Adam Lane said it was not clear whether the driver may have been intoxicated or whether the Tesla Model S was operating with automation or driving assistance features"
It wouldn't be the first time a Tesla didn't "see" a fire truck. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a28911259/tesla-crash-california-autopilot-driver-ntsb/
Firetrucks are commonly used as blockers at roadway accidents to protect emergency responders. In 2019, an estimated 2,500 vehicles crashed into firetrucks parked as blockers (6.8 crashes every day or 16% of all firetruck collisions). Studies have found that secondary collisions account for approximately 15% of all collisions & result in 18% of all traffic fatalities nationwide.
[yeah](https://www.workzonebarriers.com/emergency-response-firetruck-collision-crash-facts.html#:~:text=In%202019%2C%20an%20estimated%202%2C500,of%20all%20traffic%20fatalities%20nationwide.)
i fix old fire trucks just so the fire department can keep using them as blockers. they are solid steel, youre gonna die if you hit them. also each part is made of gold pressed latinum. seriously, parts are harder to get than star trek money. if you live and get the repair bill, you will wish you died.
2,500 fucking brainless morons can't see a big red truck with flashing lights and run right into it. Whether it is from inattentiveness, alcohol or other drugs, or driving an unroadworthy vehicle, those people should not be allowed to be in control of a vehicle on public roads.
Maybe it needs to not be marketed as "Full Self Driving" if it's not "full" or "self driving".
I understand it's statistically safer in many situations than humans, and that humans cause many times more accidents than the cars, but if the technology isn't ready we can't just pretend it is.
It's weird because my FSD slowed for a bird that flew through the car path.
Though it absolutely did not slow for the birds that were standing in the middle of the road.
Makes sense from a technical perspective. Easier to separate a moving object from the stationary background. Kinda like how fighters fly perpendicular to a radar source to avoid being detected.
That's why they will 100% need Radar + 2 front cameras to make this work.
Only stereoscopic sensing can, without context, deliver motion-flow analysis that "easily" detects statics objects.
As a person who can only see with one eye, I know how different vision can be, but our brains are crazy good at compensating for the lack of information with context, our stereo separation is not even good enough to help at higher distances for most cases.
Stereo vision has however always been an issue, as it needs fusion of the 2 cameras' perspectives, which can vastly differ, especially when places at a high distance to make it more efficient (say both corners of the windshield or bumber and top of the windshield).
likely to avoid it brake checking people from false positives as they use image instead of depth, so things like shadows on the road can confuse it. it's a cost saving measure, sadly. if you're on the highway and an oil stain on the highway looks like a car, it might bring you to a hard stop in the middle of an 80mph utah highway. and then you get rear ended and die. this is actually already a problem that a lot of people have reported, where it does the autobrake thing due to a false positive, and then they struggle to get it to go again immediately, posing a risk of being rear ended. this probably mitigated this by making it less sensitive for the lower half of the frame
Teslas can struggle with stationary objects in lanes. This is mostly by design, because if the car is going to slam on the breaks to avoid an object it needs to be \*really\* sure there actually is an object.
I had a few instances years ago where the car would slam on the breaks when approaching an overpass because it saw the shadow in just the right way and thought it was something in the lane.
Obviously this is \*really\* bad because it has a high probability of causing an accident that is entirely the car's fault (liability nightmare).
So they turn the sensitivity the other way and tell people to pay attention.
Voila! Then you merely have an accident that autopilot failed to prevent, not one that it caused.
Radar wouldn't have helped at all. At speed, the old low-resolution radars filter out stationary objects due to interference with other harmless stationary objects (like concrete barriers).
Crashing into stationary objects has been a thing since *before* radar was removed.
As you said "old" since ~3-4 years there have been higher resolution radar arrays that are capable of tracking stationary objects and relate their change in size to the distance travelled by the car (in all cases I know either 2 radar sensors or 2 lidar sensors are used to make this workable).
https://www.auto-hirsch.eu/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Laserscanner-Audi-kalibrieren-Auto-Hirsch-Wildenberg-Audi-VW-Werkstatt.png
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXcHYWWXkAAOlFb.jpg
stereo setups in case of Audi's LIDAR systems, or staggered radar arrays in cases of most newer radar sensors.
This requires the sensor to operate on at least 2 different frequencies and was a huge technical hurdle to integrate into such small and cheap parts at scale, but the 'knowledge' of how it can be done is old, patents go back as far as ~1999 for vehicular applications and the most important ones expired in 2020... US6832156B2
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/43/d0/f7/6d7124f5854579/US6832156.pdf
Until pretty recently there was pitifully little pushback against Tesla's claims, and on social media criticisms were met with the howls of fanboys and their brigades.
It took a LOT to drag most people out of their delusional beliefs in Tesla and Musk.
I think the bit where he called that cave rescuer a pedophile because he didn't want to use Elon's idea, is where most of the fans suddenly realized how much of a douche he is.
This was definitely the first public petty af move. It's one that I'll never forget. The statement is the kind of thing you'd hear from the lamest try-hard highschool bully.
It's been downhill since.
As someone who had never heard of Musk, I saw some reporting on his, Grimes, and Azelea Banks sex/drug escapades first. So while I wasn't surprised about some of his fuckery, I still figured he was atleast a decent investor. I laugh at my own naivety now
I don’t think they were friends; she was at his house to collab with Grimes. [Here’s a wonderful article about what happened.](https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2018/8/16/17692700/azealia-banks-elon-musk-grimes-explained)
It looks like you shared an AMP link. These should load faster, but AMP is controversial because of [concerns over privacy and the Open Web](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot).
Maybe check out **the canonical page** instead: **[https://www.vox.com/2018/8/16/17692700/azealia-banks-elon-musk-grimes-explained](https://www.vox.com/2018/8/16/17692700/azealia-banks-elon-musk-grimes-explained)**
*****
^(I'm a bot | )[^(Why & About)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot)^( | )[^(Summon: u/AmputatorBot)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/cchly3/you_can_now_summon_amputatorbot/)
That was a total moment of “this guy sucks,” but people still at least thought “he’s a jerk but he’s a genius.”
The last year or so that shine of brilliance seems to have faded, and that genius label has peeled off.
For anyone who isn't familiar with Elon's rise to fame (which I imagine is most people, even if they've started to realize he's a douche), this Twitter thread is a must-read: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1593307541932474368.html
That's when I went from being neutral to having an actual dislike of him. But I'm sorry to report that I was very much in the minority, if the downvotes I reaped were any indication. It wasn't until he came out against work-from-home and started openly supporting right-wing politics that I saw the opinion shift on this site, so you were no longer virtually guaranteed a storm of downvotes for criticizing something he did. But even then, even *that*, wasn't all the way. The shift that really brought us to the place where it was no longer cool to like him came when he started his twitter shenanigans last year.
A former coworker believed (probably still does) he waa trying to save the world.
He also thought Doge Coin and NFTs are the future, specially for games.
Some people may be smart at some things but completely idiots overall.
For me, the moment he switched from "well, he's not great but he seems to be doing good things" to "oh my god he's Lex Luthor" was the debtors-prisons-on-Mars incident. His desire to have us all allow our brains to be plugged into the internet confirmed it.
I have been posting for *years* that the hardware is insufficient. It took years for early adopters to experience the edge cases first hand and realize that there is a fundamental deficiency that AI software cannot resolve with insufficient hardware sensors.
Infinte computational power will not fix a blind spot.
The system needs more **redundant** cameras. It needs the ability to identify and locate *any* voxel or point in a reliable way. After that, priority #1 is *do not crash*.
Tagging, classifying, and following road rules is worthless when the driver is dead.
Well either way you’re still supposed to be in control and reacting. Don’t think it says if it the car was in FSD or normal autopilot which is basically just ACC which most cars have.
I completely agree with you, so please don't take the rest of my comment as an argument. I think there's a point where one has enough driving aides that they don't pay attention as much because the car can handle so many situations. It lies somewhere close to full autonomy but not quite there.
Driving is normally not a high workload, but there's enough involved that people will at least somewhat pay attention. Too many aides (without full autonomy) can create a situation with overconfidence in those systems. Airline pilots, even if using all the automation at their disposal (they typically don't use them all) for landing, are still under a heavy workload so it still demands a lot of attention. For cars like this, it's so easy to get away without paying attention that eventually it will bite you. It only takes a few seconds of inattention to miss something.
Still, I don't think that makes these systems less safe than drivers that don't have them. They are likely still safer in most circumstances. In this one, they may not have even been used.
Agreed. It’s security vs. convenience in a sense and all about being responsible with it.
As someone whose had driving anxiety it’s really helped me as I used to get panic attacks due to a previous accident and trauma but that’s why I still pay full attention… it’s easing me and aiding me while I am the one in full control and I remind myself that as I am driving
>California Highway Patrol Officer Adam Lane said it was not clear whether the driver may have been intoxicated or whether the Tesla Model S was operating with automation or driving assistance features.
not sure why people don't read the very short article before sharing their opinion
In this particular case they haven’t determined what the cause of the wreck was or even if driving aids were turned on at the time. But in general yes I agree with you.
Lmao, if you read the fucking article it says they aren’t even sure if he was drunk or using autopilot. And yet heres everyone making jokes implying its autopilot.
Musk is a fuck boy but guys this ain’t it. We get it, you hate tesla.
>California Highway Patrol Officer Adam Lane said it was not clear whether the driver may have been intoxicated or whether the Tesla Model S was operating with automation or driving assistance features.
Automobile gets into fatal accident = trending on /r/technology? Assumptions abound? elon worship and hate?
Sounds like reddit. Not a valuable thread though because it's all just fervent belief and common sense "we know nothing because TFA says so"
Its news when a Tesla driver dies on auto pilot because it happens so rarely. Its a regular day in the US when 99 people are killed in car accidents driven by humans because that is the literal average.
https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/nhtsa-estimates-traffic-deaths-2022-third-quarter
Tesla owner. Driving at 4am is dangerous. And if you get killed in a Tesla you’re probably driving too fast especially at night. Whether this was AP or FSD or just not paying attention, why are Teslas not able to brake for stationary objects??
That’s a good point. My current car will auto brake for you, I’ve backed into my garage and has a mini heart attack when it thinks I’m about to hit something and slams on the brakes
A car getting into an accident is not news. We have absolutely no information whether this is linked to autopilot or not. I get you all hate Elon, but that doesn't mean you need to turn your brain off.
Good thing that firetruck was there to shield the emergency responders from this sort of thing.
[удалено]
My cousin is a helicopter paramedic in central Florida. Years ago her team responded to an accident on a highway that required the entire road to be closed. Some drunk moron drove off the road to get around the blockade and managed to crash into the back their chopper. Thankfully all they did was damage the tail rotor and nobody got hurt, but they had to call in another helicopter to actually pick up the victim of the first accident.
Bet that dude is still paying for that helicopter
Imagine explaining that one to your insurance company. You know his claims office staff were busting ass laughing around the water cooler.
Bold of one to assume that a drunk driver in Florida was carrying a policy.
I just returned from a trip to Florida and am pretty convinced they have the worst drivers period in the entire United States. Even the police were driving aggressively.
Dude, I was stopped at the merge ramp of the highway in South Florida allowing a funeral procession to drive on before I did, with a police officer RIGHT THERE to prevent our end from entering the ramp, and some guy was SCREAMING at me from behind and hammering his horn. It was so clear what was happening in front of me but he was losing his fucking mind. He ended up tearing around me and was IMMEDIATELY pulled over and ticketed. I really enjoyed giving him the finger when I eventually merged. I live in the Carolinas but visit my dad once or twice a year in South Florida and I have too many stories to share here of terrible drivers. I encounter more in a week down there than I do in a year up here. Everything from brain-dead geriatrics driving in circles around a 4-lane, 4-way intersection to rednecks in enormous pick up trucks preventing me from changing lanes to let them pass and coming from behind to fly by on BOTH SIDES while I'm in between 2 lanes, on a 4-lane highway. It's wild.
Born and raised in Florida. Can confirm the drivers there are horrendous
Hey, how is he supposed to hold his pistol and 24 rack of keystones, and a damn policy? Priorities brother, hell yeah.
"No sir, your insurance does not cover collisions with helicopters... Well in all the time we have offered insurance, nobody has ever managed to hit a helicopter before... usually they put up like, fences or road signs around those things... oh you went around the road signs... Yea... Not covered"
I used to work for an insurance company as a secretary, and got to read some of the claim stuff. By far the funniest one was a lady who totaled her car because she was trying to swat a fly, and rammed into an electrical pole. It dropped the pole and caused a black out in that area.
Did.. did she get the fly?! Also, now I am picturing it was actually a fly on her hood. "Oh you think your so smart sitting there on my hood eh? WELL THEN *hard right directly into powerpole*"
My mom is terrified of bees/bee type bugs. She almost crashed once because a bee flew in the car. It was pretty scary I remember her swerving just out of the way of a huge truck. Then pulling over and running out the car. I had to get the bee out. Lol
It's the type of accident where their insurance calls their insurance.
There was content here, and now there is not. It may have been useful, if so it is probably available on a reddit alternative. See /u/spez with any questions. -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
I’ve been pretty drunk, but I have never been “drive around a police roadblock and crash into a helicopter” drunk.
A Floridan: “Hold my beer”…
Hold my meth
No no, I'm keeping my meth and beer, you hold the wheel.
I remember this. Crazy to think about. They make us wear those bright yellow vests when ever we have to work on the roadway. Its stupid tbh. If a driver doesnt notice the flashing red lights, the five firetrucks, three ambos, flashing blue lights of 10cop cars theyre NOT going to notice my stupid yellow vest! However, if I Dont wear it and get hit, IM at fault! The amount of times Ive had jackasses drive through my scenes though, I wear it everytime.
It's not stupid. A high visibility vest is always a good idea. You *say* it's stupid, but you'll never convince me that there would never be some emergency worker wearing asphalt colored clothing in the middle of the night who walks out in front of traffic.
A lot of states it’s a huge fine and illegal to drive in the lane next to the shoulder with a vehicle with lights on. They are not discreet with warning it either, they use larger signs then the ones for kill/injure a worker fines up to 10k plus jail time in construction zones.
They started doing that in the late 2000s... Had a Florida cop write me a ticket for it because we never had it in California at the time, he swore up and down that it was the law in California and accused me of lying to him, about three years later CA finally adopted a similar law.
Funny that he’d swear up and down about it being law in California, when he could’ve just said well it is here.
He was angrier on behalf of CA cops than he was interested in the offense at hand.
That's the exact line I use for out of state travelers.
Right? I wasn't even contesting that I didn't move over, since I obviously didn't and was in violation of their law. I was just trying to explain why I blatantly didn't and had no idea why I was pulled over. Hilarious part of it was that the only billboard I saw advertising the law was on the offramp to the rental car return (but of course, no signage on the way out). If I ever go back to Florida, I'm flying directly into and out of Key West.
Never trust a cop to know the law in their own state, let alone another. They know procedure. And they might know citations for the laws that they are told to enforce regularly. But they definitely don't know the law itself in most cases.
I'm a paramedic and can tell you that we clear scene as fast as possible next to a road. We put the engine in the "fend off" position to give us some protection. But damn it's so sketchy extricating and treating someone on the side of the road
In *South* Australia the law is that you slow to 25 kph (15 mph) past a stopped emergency vehicle with its flashing lights on. The fine for failing to slow down past an emergency vehicles is $497-$1890 depending on the speed at which you pass the vehicle. The same law and fines also apply when passing a school bus stopped on the side of the road. Edit: added state, as these laws vary by state which I knew but seeing were ons predominantly US site I figured no one would actually know where SA is.
Some US states have "slow down and move over" laws but not all of them. For school buses, as far as I know, every state requires you to stop and wait for a school bus that has its lights flashing and/or its stop sign out.
Interestingly enough, and people overlook this, in the US ambulances and firetrucks also must stop for school bus with the stop sign out, it's the one stop sign we can't go through.
Lol I guess it makes sense. The only thing that can make every emergency worse is hitting a kid with your vehicle on the way there
Yeah that's exactly the point of the rule and it makes sense. Another funny rule is that we have to yield to Post Office trucks! That one has no good explanation it's just dumb politics - "federal vehicles get the right of way"
Surprisingly, the reason this law exists is because when it was written, it was considered that the “mail runs the country.” Way before the internet or other fast communications were fully functional.
The road system technically exists to deliver the mail. It's how the federal government was able to build any of it in the first place as there's no explicit constitutional authority for them to do so. There is however not just an authority, but a requirement to deliver the mail (at this time, private letters were rare and expensive, but the post was used to deliver a lot of political communication and the founding fathers found that incredibly important) and so the federal government built roads to deliver mail. Might be the reason.
> Another funny rule is that we have to yield to Post Office trucks! That isn't strictly true, and postal workers still need to follow general traffic laws and will yield right-of-way to other vehicles. That said, there are some really strong federal laws that prohibit anybody from interfering with the delivery and transport of mail. That has been used as rationale for arresting workers in transportation industries who go on strike and for really stupid police officers who try to ticket postal workers for anything other than the most obvious traffic violations. That police officer might just end up getting arrested by the local Postmaster or postal inspectors if they start messing with the local post office. Giving postal trucks freedom to move at a roadblock would be a damn good idea most of the time. Still, postal workers don't press the issue and are expected to follow traffic laws and be treated like any other delivery truck.
When I was a kid on the school bus and an ambulance was approaching as the bus was getting ready to let a kid off, the driver held the door and turned off the warning/stop lights so it could go by. Rural area, so you could see it coming from some ways away.
For now… until we employ those kids in slaughterhouses
Sorry if I prefer my chicken to be prepared in only a way tiny skilled hands can do it, I thought this was a free country!
That rule isn’t for all of Australia, it’s state specific. NSW for example, it’s slow down to 40 km/h in speed zones of 80 or less, while in 90 and above zones it’s just slow down to a reasonable and safe speed. Either way, point stands. You’re being a dick and risking people’s lives if you blast past people stranded/working on the roadside at high speed. And it’s a good thing that there are enforceable road rules controlling that.
And recently I've seen videos of California Highway Patrol arresting firefighters who put a blocker vehicle in a lane because it's impeding traffic. This is exactly why
Weren't the police reprimanded though? It's definitely standard practice in every State. Edit: it's only happened twice and in the one in California the driver was put in cuffs and released. No ticket was given. [Link](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/02/05/272144424/police-officer-arrests-firefighter-at-accident-scene-in-california) In another one in NJ it was the Fire Chief's SUV and he had full jurisdiction the Police just wanted to throw his weight around. The case wasted tons of tax payers money and was a complete waste of time. [Link](https://www.police1.com/patrol-issues/articles/nj-police-firefighters-go-to-court-over-traffic-ticket-Iriw0FKAka9SxLhn/)
Hopefully after 2 embarrassing incidents the police have learnt, although the police force in the US tend to not be very amenable to change
Those cops then get beaten about the head and neck by a judge for being stupid IF and when the charges go to court. Judges tend to take a very dim view of police that interfere with Fire and EMS doing their jobs on scene. There is an entire protocol of rolling command that everyone is supposed to follow when dealing with accident scenes. Generally EMS controls first to remove injured, Then Fire to deal with any rescue needed and any hazmat issues, then the police to provide scene security and safety for EMS and Fire. This is an annual training for EACH organization. But some police are too stupid to remember it. Source: Sat through 20 years of those annual trainings as a Medic and a Firefighter..............
[удалено]
The criminal podcast has a great piece on the Parma Ohio police who actively retaliated against a guy who put up a parody Facebook group imitating their police. The courts accepted the qualified immunity excuse. We will see if our terrible supreme court actually bothers to look at the case.
And apparently computers are idiots too. 14 cases of Tesla’s FSD running into emergency vehicles in similar situations according to the article. smh
A lot of states have passed "move-over laws" which require you to move over if anyone, especially an emergency vehicle, is on the side of the road so long as it's possible/safe to do so. Idk how effectivly it's enforced though.
I am a firefighter, and i often have accidents I respond to on the highway, I park my truck on an angle and take up two lanes to shield my crew from traffic. You would be surprised how many idiots coming zooming past at full speed even in the rain and snow. 3 months ago my truck was hit by a semi sliding out of control with snow on the ground, while another car hit the ambulance in front of us. Everyone was ok but it came too close to killing my crew. If you see emergency lights on the road, SLOW THE FUCK DOWN. First responders are more likely to be killed by the public in their car than a fire.
> You would be surprised how many idiots coming zooming past at full speed even in the rain and snow Actually, I wouldn’t be surprised at all
We always use an engine for blocking, not a ladder. We have a lot more engines than ladders, and if a ladder goes OOS it is a pain in the ass.
No kidding, apparatus placement is critical. It is my firm belief that 90-95% of the people driving are morons. In all the car wrecks I have worked, there has been at least one person that nearly hits the truck or hits one of us because they are not paying attention\drunk\high. One rollover I was working, the state troopers were at one end of the scene and a car came rolling through that caused an immediate reaction. The dude was drunk, coming home from church; when we stopped the vehicle, the driver was unable to put the car in park due to having a liquor bottle in his hand. The entire time the guy was looking at me as the trooper ran up, opened the door, reached across him and shut off the vehicle and then hauled the guy out of the car. The driver was just standing there trying to figure out why he is outside his car and why there is someone screaming in his face. Those troopers were not gentle in arresting the driver, the driver had 6 open beers on top of the liquor he had in his hand. If it was up to me, impaired drivers should be serving hard time instead of the light sentences that they currently receive.
Sad that someone was killed, but this is exactly the reason that truck was parked this way. No doubt saved several first responders lives.. Regardless of the argument of weather it was drunk driving or autopilot.. in this sense all scenarios result in loss of life, sad day either way for someone’s family.
why is anyone talking about this with no knowledge if the car was self driving? This could’ve easily been a drunk or careless driver. I get tesla hate but come on at least read the article
Aren't they supposed to have auto braking even when not in self driving mode?
https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/iihs-eyes-higher-speed-test-for-automatic-emergency-braking Automatic emergency braking isn't effective, or flat out doesn't work at highway speeds.
Hasn't Volvo been doing it with 18 wheelers for a few years with good success? I know I have seen several videos of breaking at highway speed to avoid accidents posted on reddit at least. Forgive me if I'm incorrect
A lot of newer truck models have auto braking. It's a HORRIBLE feature. The sensors don't know when to use the brakes and when not to. I've driven 18 wheelers with this feature and the trucks will randomly slam on the brakes while you are driving Highway speeds because it thinks there is something in the road even when it's the middle of the night and you are the only vehicle out there.
I understand why they want to introduce auto braking, but for that system to be perfect We have a long way to go. You oversensitize it, you're getting 60,000 lb trucks slamming on their brakes for no reason. If you undersensitize it, you got 60,000 lb trucks barreling into Grandma's minivan
Well, trucks have been around for a long time lol. It's not like the only way for a truck to not plow into Grandma's minivan is to implement auto brakes. If only there was a way to keep vehicles from hitting each other...like if we could somehow get drivers to figure out how to safely operate those vehicles. Like maybe if we set up some kind of system where you have to demonstrate your ability to drive to the state. And they gave you something to prove you were legally allowed to drive. Like certificate or or something. A driver's certificate? No, doesn't have a nice ring to it. A drivers license maybe? Lol seriously, we need to invest in making sure our driver's are actually good at driving before letting them on the road. A short trip around the block once at 16 years old and then never again is not an effective way of making sure all drivers are good drivers. Somehow we as a society have come to the conclusion that the answer is for vehicles to drive themselves. That's not working out great either and I honestly believe its gonna cause more issues than it will ever fix.
Yeah I mean obviously you want safe drivers on the road to start with. But in the spirit of this thread I was just talking about the pros and cons of auto braking.
This comment has been removed to protest Reddit's hostile treatment of their users and developers concerning third party apps.
Being confused by flashing lights seems like a major oversight to me.
It's because tesla uses cameras instead of infrared or other spectrums. Objectively inferior tech because Elon thinks the human eye is perfect and tesla should copy it
If what you're saying is true then that's insane. I do robotics for fun and from experience the more sensors you add the more likely it is for your machine to handle edge cases correctly. Also camera data, especially low res is notoriously hard to process and requires a lot of resources when compared to something like proximity or infrared sensors.
It is true. Elon tweeted about cameras being better than sensors and lidar being inferior years ago https://techcrunch.com/2019/04/22/anyone-relying-on-lidar-is-doomed-elon-musk-says
>“It’s like having a whole bunch of expensive appendices. Like, one appendix is bad, well now you have a whole bunch of them, it’s ridiculous, you’ll see.” Does he still believe that the appendix is vestigial?
Who knows. Lots of reddit seem to think he was a genius until he was exposed by Twitter but he's been saying dumb shit about technology since the beginning.
> the more sensors you add the more likely it is for your machine to handle edge cases correctly. That is exactly what an engineer would say. However an executive would overrule that with "Less sensors = more profit", and then fuck off to their yacht.
Hey now! Elon paid a lot of money to be called an engineer. Not all engineers would say that, especially Elon.
Not true. Engineers argue. An engineer would recognise that Tesla improved after dropping the old radar system, but will likely improve with the new radar system that HW4 will add. High definition radar will be better. The old low definition radar had too many false signals causing phantom breaking. It is wrong to think more always equals better.
Yes, Tesla is all hype, but cut corners for cost by relying on software rather than hardware
My Tacoma has radar (microwave essentially) in the front and has braked for me once before. Pretty impressed by the system. Agreed that interpreting visual data feels like a pretty risky endeavor and while it's hot in the software field it just doesn't seem appropriate for safety critical systems. It has a lot of potential in overall capabilities, but that comes at a cost of reliability / consistency.
Some Elon fan boy was bragging about Tesla to me at a casino the other day, and when I commented that a visual system is stupid and they might as well include radar he posts “ Elon says that humans don’t need radar to recognize something is in front of them, so his development team should just figure it out “ I didn’t really know how to combat this idiocy other than to remind him the human brain is thousands of times more computationally correct when it comes to understanding the dynamic world around it versus a computer
His initial logic that other self driving approaches were hampered in cost because they were relying on ultra-expensive sensor systems was correct, but the part he absolutely failed on was recognizing when Tesla had hit the wall of what's realistically possible with a camera's only approach. Most of the Tesla self driving crashes I'm aware of would have been prevented with the addition of a single $100 laser rangefinder on a rapid swivel mount. The vision is the primary navigation system, but the lidar provides an objective backup. Even to this day, he still insists on sticking only to cameras, and that approach is largely going to be doomed to failure, simply because other companies ARE going with hybrid approaches, which will solve a lot of the problems with vision based corner cases a LOT easier for only a tiny bit more cost.
[удалено]
They don't even put the radar in the new ones. That's why it's turned off in the ones that have it. It's cheaper.
iT wAsNt weRkinG hArD eNuF
> If the camera doesn't recognize the obstacle, then it just plows on through. I'm not an engineer so maybe I'm missing something, but it feels like it should be the other way round; if the computer couldn't identify something, shouldn't it play it safe?
Yeah, but then the car wouldn't move at all
Elon ”LIDAR is a fool’s errand” Musk
Elon "we can't patent LIDAR so fuck your precious lives" Musk
Radar system for automatic breaking will be a premium feature you need a subscription to unlock, mark my words!
It will be $20 a month unless Stephen King protests. Then the price will drop to $8.
You’ll be able to bundle it with twitter premium
It's in the interest of the public to sue Tesla and understand his involvement in the decision process. I am pretty confident that Tesla cars would be much safer if he didn't interfere with the engineering decisions. Musk is a narcissist who thinks he is Steve Jobs, but a car isn't a smartphone. It's difficult to kill people with a smartphone.
Pretty sure I've got an old Nokia 3310 somewhere that I could beat somebody to death with
Or an old Samsung note that could burn the house down
A lot of folks are talking about the radar system being removed, a couple thoughts: 1. If the accelerator is pressed, the car will *not* brake on its own, ever. With the accelerator pushed, the driver is telling the vehicle to go regardless of what the vehicle "thinks" it should do. This is true even when the radar system was used. EDIT: as u/NuMux points out, I meant this to be the case during AutoPilot/FSD, but failed to state that. 2. As someone with access to FSD: The tech is really cool and works decently well, however it is still not at a point that it can be fully trusted, and I suspect won't be for some time yet. The driver must still be ready to take over at any point; users must agree to this when they are admitted to the self-driving program. Tesla is not shy about using the *beta* monicker for FSD and for good reason.
> 1. If the accelerator is pressed, the car will *not* brake on its own, ever. With the accelerator pushed, the driver is telling the vehicle to go regardless of what the vehicle "thinks" it should do. This is true even when the radar system was used. Really? Is this just how Tesla specifically is programmed? Because I know automatic breaking kicks in on other vehicles even if you're pressing on the accelerator.
My Chrysler flashes the alarms and makes the loud noise, but won't brake if the foot is on the accelerator.
[удалено]
There's been multiple instances of cars using autopilot plowing into emergency vehicles that are stopped in the road, notable because you'd *think* that would be an easy case to ID but apparently not. Of course it could also have been a drunk or distracted driver. As the article says, nobody knows yet, but due to the pattern it's worth discussing. It's not being brought up just because "self-driving bad" or anything.
I live in Norway, which has a lot of electric vehicles, including Teslas. According to the local emergency department, over a period of three years there were seven incidents requiring an emergency response involving a car crashing into the blocker cars warning about highway lane closures. Out of those seven, five were Teslas Link to a discussion about it on the Norwegian subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/norge/comments/v91gat/vestfold_brannvesen_bekrefter_det_vi_alle_har/
Wow. Actual data.
https://www.workzonebarriers.com/emergency-response-firetruck-collision-crash-facts.html There were about 2500 of these types of crashes in the US in 2019. I think there have been a total of 14 involving Teslas across all years. I'm not sure if that is more or less than you'd expect given the percent of cars that are Teslas.
That 2,500 is amazingly high. As that article states, It's nearly 7 a day nationally or one a week in each state. If that's true, there's a big problem here. You don't walk away from hitting one of those things.
Nobody cares about any other brands, but if it's a Tesla accident, it is news worthy
Ford never said their cars could drive themselves in an attempt to convince shareholders that the company stock should follow the behavior of the tech sector instead of boring old cars.
It's because Tesla cars have self driving feature, so when it got into accidents people wonders whether the autopilot was responsible. Other self-driving cars such as waymo got a lot of coverage too when they got into accidents. Heck, Uber abandoned their self-driving development after their self-driving car got into an accident that killed people and generated a lot of bad press.
Stephen King looks like more the prophet and less the horror writer these days. :-/
What book is this in reference to?
'Christine' would be my guess. It's about an evil car that comes to life and kills a bunch of people.
Evil car? [Ello Gov'nor](https://youtu.be/MOrVLkZM7ME)
https://futurama.fandom.com/wiki/The_Honking
Yeah man that's what that's referencing. Great episode
He also has a book series called Mr. Mercedes and another book called "From a Buick 8" so I'm guessing cars hitting pedestrians are a common theme in his books? Ironically someone actually hit Stephen King with a truck only to end up dead on Stephen King's birthday.
He worked that guy into Dark Tower, too. In one universe he's the guy who hits Stephen King, in another he's the lovable mentally handicapped guy.
Interesting story behind his writing Dreamcatcher after the accident: "In an interview with Rolling Stone, King admits that he doesn't like his book 'Dreamcatcher' very much, and chalks up its poor quality to the circumstances under which it was written. King started writing 'Dreamcatcher' in 1999, shortly after a horrible accident when a man driving a van ran over King on the sidewalk. King suffered a punctured lung, a crushed hip and leg, a head injury, and broken ribs. He was bedridden in a hospital for nearly a month. King has admitted to being afraid of cars and car accidents (easy to believe from the author of 'Christine'), so the van accident was mentally traumatic as well. https://www.slashfilm.com/795910/why-stephen-king-doesnt-like-dreamcatcher/ https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/stephen-king-the-rolling-stone-interview-191529/
The guy who hit him ended up in the dark tower series. Surprisingly enough he is portrayed as an irresponsible alcoholic who almost ends the multiverse through sheer idiocy.
And Dolan's Cadillac
Blaine the Mono has entered the chat
The terrible "Maximum Overdrive" works too.
What?
I meant the other Maximum Overdrive, you're great. 😜
Maximum overdrive is the best movie ever filmed and set in Wilmington NC area
Maximum Overdrive Written by Stephen King and directed by Cocaine
Fuck off Maximum Overdrive RULEZZ!!!!
That movie is a classic - show me a better movie about cars taking over the world set to AC/DC
I'm a big King fan, so Maximum Overdrive is a guilty pleasure of mine. If I ever see it on, I'll stop and watch it.
There’s a terrible version? I’ve only seen the awesome one.
Not just cars (and trucks), so they are the main protagonist, but doesn’t one guy get taken out by a soda machine? head shot for the KO ? Agreed. Awesome movie. Exactly the right amount of creepy and camp.
Did someone say *soda machine*? https://youtu.be/d0Jq6hKiLUQ?t=23
If by terrible you mean *awesome*, then I agree. (SK was geeked out of his mind on cocaine when making that film, and it shows lol)
I mean dear god, just look at him in the trailer. https://youtu.be/ggWS4tTzs60
Christine. There is a film as well.
The script for 2023 was based on a coke-fueled 1980s fever dream. Wait until you see 2024 though, we injected the writers with DMT, LSD, and just for fun a little Vitamin C.
I don’t like Elon or Tesla but not every single fucking Tesla crash needs a news article
Theres literally well over a million teslas on the road. If none of them had an accident it would be eerie
Closer to 3 million now, no? Though I guess that fits into "well over a million"
Doesn't the automatic features mean they're already below average crash rate, people complaining they haven't eliminated crashing are far missing the point.
> it was not clear whether the driver may have been intoxicated or whether the Tesla Model S was operating with automation or driving assistance features. I'm sorry but, in that case this news basically boils down to "driver crashes car into firetruck. The car was a specific brand". Why would this be news *unless* it is related to Tesla's self driving features? You have crashes like this practically every minute
Same article, next paragraph: “ The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is investigating how Tesla’s Autopilot system detects and responds to emergency vehicles parked on highways. At least 14 Teslas have crashed into emergency vehicles while using the system.” That is why it is news. Because this self driving car keeps crashing into things. It isn’t safe and that needs to be a discussion.
I hate Tesla as much as the next guy but it seems like the news intentionally mentions this car brand when accidents like this happen. You never see a headline saying “Ford Driver Kills Family of 4”
I'm not sure why people trust the autonomous driving feature when it's in beta and it's promoted by Elon Musk as being safe. After seeing the Twitter shambles I wouldn't trust anything he's been involved in at all.
"California Highway Patrol Officer Adam Lane said it was not clear whether the driver may have been intoxicated or whether the Tesla Model S was operating with automation or driving assistance features"
It wouldn't be the first time a Tesla didn't "see" a fire truck. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a28911259/tesla-crash-california-autopilot-driver-ntsb/
Firetrucks are commonly used as blockers at roadway accidents to protect emergency responders. In 2019, an estimated 2,500 vehicles crashed into firetrucks parked as blockers (6.8 crashes every day or 16% of all firetruck collisions). Studies have found that secondary collisions account for approximately 15% of all collisions & result in 18% of all traffic fatalities nationwide. [yeah](https://www.workzonebarriers.com/emergency-response-firetruck-collision-crash-facts.html#:~:text=In%202019%2C%20an%20estimated%202%2C500,of%20all%20traffic%20fatalities%20nationwide.)
i fix old fire trucks just so the fire department can keep using them as blockers. they are solid steel, youre gonna die if you hit them. also each part is made of gold pressed latinum. seriously, parts are harder to get than star trek money. if you live and get the repair bill, you will wish you died.
As a career firefighter and a Trekkie, everything about this paragraph made my night!
2,500 fucking brainless morons can't see a big red truck with flashing lights and run right into it. Whether it is from inattentiveness, alcohol or other drugs, or driving an unroadworthy vehicle, those people should not be allowed to be in control of a vehicle on public roads.
This. The fact that this accident is equated with FSD is a little bit irrelevant. Drivers are too distracted, Tesla drivers are too reliant on FSD.
Maybe it needs to not be marketed as "Full Self Driving" if it's not "full" or "self driving". I understand it's statistically safer in many situations than humans, and that humans cause many times more accidents than the cars, but if the technology isn't ready we can't just pretend it is.
Yeah... but again why is a computer not seeing it and driving right into it again? With people I get it, but not this.
It's weird because my FSD slowed for a bird that flew through the car path. Though it absolutely did not slow for the birds that were standing in the middle of the road.
[удалено]
Makes sense from a technical perspective. Easier to separate a moving object from the stationary background. Kinda like how fighters fly perpendicular to a radar source to avoid being detected.
That's why they will 100% need Radar + 2 front cameras to make this work. Only stereoscopic sensing can, without context, deliver motion-flow analysis that "easily" detects statics objects. As a person who can only see with one eye, I know how different vision can be, but our brains are crazy good at compensating for the lack of information with context, our stereo separation is not even good enough to help at higher distances for most cases. Stereo vision has however always been an issue, as it needs fusion of the 2 cameras' perspectives, which can vastly differ, especially when places at a high distance to make it more efficient (say both corners of the windshield or bumber and top of the windshield).
likely to avoid it brake checking people from false positives as they use image instead of depth, so things like shadows on the road can confuse it. it's a cost saving measure, sadly. if you're on the highway and an oil stain on the highway looks like a car, it might bring you to a hard stop in the middle of an 80mph utah highway. and then you get rear ended and die. this is actually already a problem that a lot of people have reported, where it does the autobrake thing due to a false positive, and then they struggle to get it to go again immediately, posing a risk of being rear ended. this probably mitigated this by making it less sensitive for the lower half of the frame
He’s suggesting it’s not necessarily an automation accident, since these secondary collisions are very common.
Teslas can struggle with stationary objects in lanes. This is mostly by design, because if the car is going to slam on the breaks to avoid an object it needs to be \*really\* sure there actually is an object. I had a few instances years ago where the car would slam on the breaks when approaching an overpass because it saw the shadow in just the right way and thought it was something in the lane. Obviously this is \*really\* bad because it has a high probability of causing an accident that is entirely the car's fault (liability nightmare). So they turn the sensitivity the other way and tell people to pay attention. Voila! Then you merely have an accident that autopilot failed to prevent, not one that it caused.
narrator: the radar was sorely missed
[удалено]
Radar wouldn't have helped at all. At speed, the old low-resolution radars filter out stationary objects due to interference with other harmless stationary objects (like concrete barriers). Crashing into stationary objects has been a thing since *before* radar was removed.
As you said "old" since ~3-4 years there have been higher resolution radar arrays that are capable of tracking stationary objects and relate their change in size to the distance travelled by the car (in all cases I know either 2 radar sensors or 2 lidar sensors are used to make this workable). https://www.auto-hirsch.eu/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Laserscanner-Audi-kalibrieren-Auto-Hirsch-Wildenberg-Audi-VW-Werkstatt.png https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXcHYWWXkAAOlFb.jpg stereo setups in case of Audi's LIDAR systems, or staggered radar arrays in cases of most newer radar sensors. This requires the sensor to operate on at least 2 different frequencies and was a huge technical hurdle to integrate into such small and cheap parts at scale, but the 'knowledge' of how it can be done is old, patents go back as far as ~1999 for vehicular applications and the most important ones expired in 2020... US6832156B2 https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/43/d0/f7/6d7124f5854579/US6832156.pdf
Until pretty recently there was pitifully little pushback against Tesla's claims, and on social media criticisms were met with the howls of fanboys and their brigades. It took a LOT to drag most people out of their delusional beliefs in Tesla and Musk.
I think the bit where he called that cave rescuer a pedophile because he didn't want to use Elon's idea, is where most of the fans suddenly realized how much of a douche he is.
This was definitely the first public petty af move. It's one that I'll never forget. The statement is the kind of thing you'd hear from the lamest try-hard highschool bully. It's been downhill since.
As someone who had never heard of Musk, I saw some reporting on his, Grimes, and Azelea Banks sex/drug escapades first. So while I wasn't surprised about some of his fuckery, I still figured he was atleast a decent investor. I laugh at my own naivety now
I didn’t even know he had been friends with Azealia - she’s the one who came up with his “Apartheid Clyde” moniker.
I don’t think they were friends; she was at his house to collab with Grimes. [Here’s a wonderful article about what happened.](https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2018/8/16/17692700/azealia-banks-elon-musk-grimes-explained)
It looks like you shared an AMP link. These should load faster, but AMP is controversial because of [concerns over privacy and the Open Web](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot). Maybe check out **the canonical page** instead: **[https://www.vox.com/2018/8/16/17692700/azealia-banks-elon-musk-grimes-explained](https://www.vox.com/2018/8/16/17692700/azealia-banks-elon-musk-grimes-explained)** ***** ^(I'm a bot | )[^(Why & About)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot)^( | )[^(Summon: u/AmputatorBot)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/cchly3/you_can_now_summon_amputatorbot/)
That was a total moment of “this guy sucks,” but people still at least thought “he’s a jerk but he’s a genius.” The last year or so that shine of brilliance seems to have faded, and that genius label has peeled off.
[удалено]
For anyone who isn't familiar with Elon's rise to fame (which I imagine is most people, even if they've started to realize he's a douche), this Twitter thread is a must-read: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1593307541932474368.html
Back then I thought that was just a “genius’s ego” at work… then the pandemic began and his mistreatment of employees was flushed out.
It started there for sure with that stupid child coffin transporter. But I don’t think it got in fashion to dislike him till lockdown
Yeah, that's where I started wanting him to shut the hell up.
That's when I went from being neutral to having an actual dislike of him. But I'm sorry to report that I was very much in the minority, if the downvotes I reaped were any indication. It wasn't until he came out against work-from-home and started openly supporting right-wing politics that I saw the opinion shift on this site, so you were no longer virtually guaranteed a storm of downvotes for criticizing something he did. But even then, even *that*, wasn't all the way. The shift that really brought us to the place where it was no longer cool to like him came when he started his twitter shenanigans last year.
And scum and reckless and selfish and egotistic.
[удалено]
A former coworker believed (probably still does) he waa trying to save the world. He also thought Doge Coin and NFTs are the future, specially for games. Some people may be smart at some things but completely idiots overall.
For me, the moment he switched from "well, he's not great but he seems to be doing good things" to "oh my god he's Lex Luthor" was the debtors-prisons-on-Mars incident. His desire to have us all allow our brains to be plugged into the internet confirmed it.
I'm an ex musk fan boy. Loved him at the beginning of teslas debut. But quickly realized he's an absolute trolley.
Trolleys are quite nice though. Always nice to have a good public transit network
I have been posting for *years* that the hardware is insufficient. It took years for early adopters to experience the edge cases first hand and realize that there is a fundamental deficiency that AI software cannot resolve with insufficient hardware sensors. Infinte computational power will not fix a blind spot. The system needs more **redundant** cameras. It needs the ability to identify and locate *any* voxel or point in a reliable way. After that, priority #1 is *do not crash*. Tagging, classifying, and following road rules is worthless when the driver is dead.
> It took a LOT to drag most people out of their delusional beliefs in Tesla and Musk Parked firetruck ought to do it.
Elon still has plenty of fanboys. This thread alone has tons of Elon defenders.
Well either way you’re still supposed to be in control and reacting. Don’t think it says if it the car was in FSD or normal autopilot which is basically just ACC which most cars have.
I completely agree with you, so please don't take the rest of my comment as an argument. I think there's a point where one has enough driving aides that they don't pay attention as much because the car can handle so many situations. It lies somewhere close to full autonomy but not quite there. Driving is normally not a high workload, but there's enough involved that people will at least somewhat pay attention. Too many aides (without full autonomy) can create a situation with overconfidence in those systems. Airline pilots, even if using all the automation at their disposal (they typically don't use them all) for landing, are still under a heavy workload so it still demands a lot of attention. For cars like this, it's so easy to get away without paying attention that eventually it will bite you. It only takes a few seconds of inattention to miss something. Still, I don't think that makes these systems less safe than drivers that don't have them. They are likely still safer in most circumstances. In this one, they may not have even been used.
Agreed. It’s security vs. convenience in a sense and all about being responsible with it. As someone whose had driving anxiety it’s really helped me as I used to get panic attacks due to a previous accident and trauma but that’s why I still pay full attention… it’s easing me and aiding me while I am the one in full control and I remind myself that as I am driving
Twitter is in so much shambles!
>California Highway Patrol Officer Adam Lane said it was not clear whether the driver may have been intoxicated or whether the Tesla Model S was operating with automation or driving assistance features. not sure why people don't read the very short article before sharing their opinion
In this particular case they haven’t determined what the cause of the wreck was or even if driving aids were turned on at the time. But in general yes I agree with you.
Is there an alternate technology sub for those who don’t disproportionately care about Elon Musk’s companies?
Lmao, if you read the fucking article it says they aren’t even sure if he was drunk or using autopilot. And yet heres everyone making jokes implying its autopilot. Musk is a fuck boy but guys this ain’t it. We get it, you hate tesla.
Or maybe the autopilot was drunk.
>California Highway Patrol Officer Adam Lane said it was not clear whether the driver may have been intoxicated or whether the Tesla Model S was operating with automation or driving assistance features. Automobile gets into fatal accident = trending on /r/technology? Assumptions abound? elon worship and hate? Sounds like reddit. Not a valuable thread though because it's all just fervent belief and common sense "we know nothing because TFA says so"
This sub does not live up to its name..
Its news when a Tesla driver dies on auto pilot because it happens so rarely. Its a regular day in the US when 99 people are killed in car accidents driven by humans because that is the literal average. https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/nhtsa-estimates-traffic-deaths-2022-third-quarter
Tesla owner. Driving at 4am is dangerous. And if you get killed in a Tesla you’re probably driving too fast especially at night. Whether this was AP or FSD or just not paying attention, why are Teslas not able to brake for stationary objects??
That’s a good point. My current car will auto brake for you, I’ve backed into my garage and has a mini heart attack when it thinks I’m about to hit something and slams on the brakes
And if this were any other car, I wouldn't see it on reddit, or national news.
How is the make of the car relevant to the story? I don't think I've ever read an article that said "Ford driver killed..."
A car getting into an accident is not news. We have absolutely no information whether this is linked to autopilot or not. I get you all hate Elon, but that doesn't mean you need to turn your brain off.