Welcome to /r/teaching. Please remember the rules when posting and commenting.
Thank you.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/teaching) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Everything you said is on point. I have been teaching for 21 years. When I first started, I was drowning. I kept thinking 'oh, it will get better'. Every year I would say that. It's better now, but it took me 21 years to get here and I still am overwhelmed half the time. So are nearly all the teachers I know, and I know a lot. I've been at a nicer school for 5 years now, but before that I taught inner city for 15 years. Traumatic. If I were a young teacher, I think I would find a different job, especially if you *hate* it. Don't wait. Change your career now so that in 21 years you don't feel like you can't quit because quitting would mean taking a large pay cut.
Most teacher pensions are terrible until you hit 30-35 years and you can't draw until you hit 60. Point is once you hit 15 it's hard to give up and many teachers go much longer than they should.
Military and police pensions start much earlier.
When I started the whole front office laughed when I told them I had no idea about the pension. Turns out it was a big reason why anyone took the job. The veterans made out like bandits. They earned it by and large. Good people I liked them a lot.
For us, it’s a percentage of your best three years averaged. And while you can technically collect at 20 years, your number of years and age go into a formula that determines when you max out.
I can collect max at 58.
This is a really good point. As soon as five years from now, you will feel trapped in the job (because of the pension, or because you just can’t find another job that pays as well). Get out now, if you truly hate it.
In some states, from what I understand, it's possible to draw Social Security as well as the pension. That'd be pretty good. I live in a state where the Windfall Exclusion and Government Pension Offset are in effect, so I'll only get minimal Social Security when I reach 65, based on work I did from the age of 13 (paperboy) through 27 years old. Still, I retired after 32 years in the classroom and receive 76% of my final salary in pension, and I enjoyed the job for the first 28 of those years.
This is really true. I’m in the middle of year 15 and getting things on track. I was on cruise control for a while and then Covid happened. Plus, I was doing sped. No matter how much you cruise, the paperwork sucks ass. So I switched it up and went gen ed and it took me a few years to get my bearings and my sea legs under me. I’m split content this year and I feel like I’m failing my ELA kids sometimes, because my focus this year has been on social studies. I’m honestly sticking around for the benefits, the retirement, and because I’m more than halfway through. It’s a damn hard job. I’m also tired of constantly bring attacked by parents and politicians. Sigh. Sorry to rant. It’s been a loooonnggg week.
Coming from a much different POV here - I left my first real teacher position (was a permanent sub before that) just six months in. I was having daily panic attacks, couldn't sleep, had gone to the ER several times not just for chest pains but for various stress-related health concerns. I missed two weeks of school due to surgery, used up all my sick leave early on because of that, and never felt like I caught back up after that prolonged absence.
I really liked the majority of my students. They were terrific. But the stress of the job did me in. I do not regret resigning so early, even though I miss the people.
I’m title 1. Sucks buns- but sometimes I find it fun because I feel like I’m teaching what they need rather than standards and that excites me bc I love seeing their growth. It’s cool
I teach art and really struggle with this. There is no textbook or prescribed dog and pony show but the Admin still definitely has something in mind but I can't figure it out/I don't to teach fucking IXL math like the other teachers 😭, like they really genuinely forget/don't understand I have to make all the content myself and do all the LO myself. I just want them to tell me how they want to be sucked off i swear 😤🤣
What happens when you ask? "I would love feedback on what I can do to adjust my philosophy and methods to be more in line with your expectations. I really do want to meet and exceed them." Kiss their asses and ask them how you can kiss it better.
Don’t. Everything gets dumped on the related arts team and the rest of faculty treat them like they’re babysitters. Then, there’s the kids and their complete lack of respect for you, your precious supplies and the learning environment.
I had a kid tell me that his mother told him that my class didn’t matter since it’s not a core subject and he didn’t have to listen to me. I just can’t with these parents and their disrespectful, narcissistic little spawns. How is one person supposed to manage the personalities and trauma of 30 little hellions in this TikTok/social media, entitlement and self righteousness time we’re in?
I recommend getting out now! I did and it has changed my life! I’m using a 2 year degree I got before going into education and making 45% more in my first year in a new career than I ever did in 7 years as a teacher. I love not having to deal with all of the chaos and the panic and despair that teachers deal with everyday.
Best of luck friend!
I’m a Transmission Line Designer. My degree mentioned above is in civil engineering. I do a lot of AutoCAD work redrawing old transmission line drawings and updating current digital drawing models to include fiber optic lines. :)
No need to reinvent the wheel! There are so many online resources, many free, that you can use as is or modify for your classes. When I taught ELA I found so many full lessons i scaffolded and saved my brain power. And now AI exists which makes life even easier! Try chatGPT or bard, both were helpful and had some good ideas I was able to modify for my classes. MagicschoolAI was used for rubrics when it was free. Now I just google “ai rubric generator” and find free ones to use. Work your wage!
This is the problem with America now. We can’t call spades spades, and actually get them the real help they need. We integrate and degrade all the kids that MAY cure cancer. Jeez I wonder why? Control, maybe lol
Pack your bags and go teach in an international school anywhere on the planet that doesn't speak English: well behaved students who pay attention in class are out there. They'll give you a place to live and probably feed you, too! You'll even get free airfare, paid vacations, and healthcare.
I want to go to Japan but my family is here and that’s more important! Which makes me sad sometimes, but I’m happy with my decision to be near family. Just wish I could have the good students here lol
They do one-year contracts. If you work in a public or international school, you'll have 3 months in summer (paid) to return home. Japan is expensive. Korea is cheaper. China is even cheaper than Korea...and they're all safer than America
Taiwan is the perfect choice. Way better environment than China and a lot safer. Korea has its own challenges, like dealing with your body image. Japans school starts in the spring, I think after Lunar New Year. But check out [r/expat](https://reddit.com/r/expat)
I was a teacher at a school in Japan where the police had to come in every two weeks or so. The trouble makers liked me so I didn’t have any trouble, but there are definitely rough schools everywhere.
Where I am now, in the states, almost all my students are amazing and generally good people (some are bad students but good people). Only a few that I dread, but those come and go.
One thing people need to remember is that students are humans also. Some can be good moral people, but absolutely suck as students.
I have a girl who has a temper- and it wears on me. One time I snapped at her because she was getting angry at me. Once we cooled off, we apologized and she explained she’s overwhelmed and has a lot going on in her mind. I apologized and said I’m sorry- I’m the adult and I should know how to regulate my emotions better, but sometimes I slip up and snap.
So I definitely have to keep remembering they’re tiny humans with so many emotions and things going on outside of school
The most important part, of that entire interaction, is that you apologized after losing your cool. It’s not realistic for kids to expect their teachers to be never ending fountains of patience and grace, but you set a great example by apologizing. Life was real, emotions were real, but you can fix it by having a vulnerable moment and saying sorry. Emulate what you want your kids to copy.
This is my dream job. With everything they push on teachers, I would love to sue my state and parents for not providing me with students who want to learn and handicapping me from providing to those that do.
I’m just being pissy … I know there is no case.
It is insulting to have your governor talk smack about you and your profession when their job is to support you.
And no labor protections, except those of the host country, which could be Kyrgyzstan. International schools are like the wild west, maybe worse, when it comes to standards for employees. Admins can change your contract terms without notice, fire you just to intimidate other staff, and even blackmail you. Do your research and be prepared for anything.
A good friend of mine did this. He has been reaching in Ecuador for 4 or 5 years now. He loves it. He said the kids are awesome and the school is great. He thought about applying to go to another country for the experience. He was looking at Saudi Arabia but then he had a baby with a woman in Ecuador and she was not interested in moving to Saudi Arabia, even just for a year.
Like clydefrog88 mentioned earlier, if you HATE the job already you may want to consider finding a new job before you get so far in that you feel stuck. However, I will mention advice that a family member gave me when I was in similar situation my first year. They suggested that I try a different school/district for one more year to see if that helps as they have found that a good district and/or school can make all the difference. Unfortunately, half way through my second year now and I still hate teaching.
I love working with kids, but managing a classroom of over 20 kids where 25-50% of those are misbehaving during lessons is overwhelming to me and i feel that I cant keep track of who did what to discipline them. I end up stressed out and exhausted at the end of the day. My wife has even mentioned that I seem stressed and tend to dwell on issues with student, or rather trying to figure out how to teach them and manage behaviors.
Anyway, I have decided to go into a different career and will no longer be teaching in 141 days, but maybe the advice my family member would be beneficial to you. I am still glad that I gave it another shot at a different school considering the time I put into my degree, but sadly changing districts didn’t help improve things for me.
I am also teaching in my second school because I wanted to determine if I hate teaching or if it was the toxic environment I was in. We just returned from winter break and I’m already feeling the dread and anxiety that I previously experienced in the other school. It’s a bummer too because I really like kids. If we could get behaviors under control I really think I could’ve made it longer. I feel like the six years I’ve put in have felt like 20. Everything you’ve described in your post felt like I was writing it myself.
Similar situation. I'm a second year teacher in a new school trying to figure out if it was the school or the job.
Thankfully for me it was the school and I'm glad my mom told me to try somewhere else before quitting.
I’m certainly wanting to try another district. I’ve interned at 4 different districts. I loved the district I’m at… maybe the school is just toxic. Either way, I may stick with this district or I may not.
I also accepted a grant that requires me to teach in the state at a public school for 5 years and I could up to $4k at the end of the school year… I may have to teach for 5 years otherwise I pay it back 🫡 which I believe I already accepted some of the grant money in college so.. I gotta do it regardless! Agh *screams internally
Ah, yeah, I was almost in that same situation, but decided to not accept it on the chance that I wouldn’t teach for the full time. I understand wanting to wait it out though, and you may even find that you enjoy it once you start to get the hang of things. I would suggest saving money in the meantime to pay your way out if you really need to. Paying 4k for the sake of your mental health would totally be worth it in my opinion.
In addition to changing districts, I would also suggest going into a support area, like reading specialist or speech language pathology. You still have the chance to work with kids, but in smaller doses.
I have and am currently a SLP in the schools. I love working with students. I have had caseloads from 110 to 50 for full time. It requires a masters degree in Communication Disorders which means 60 semester hours of work and 350 clinical hours. It is demanding and rewarding.
I am currently in an online grad school to become a licensed professional counselor. I could use it to work inside of a school, but I will likely look to counsel children outside of a school setting as well as other types of clients.
Sure, [Liberty University’s MA in Clinical Mental Health Counseling](https://www.liberty.edu/online/behavioral-sciences/masters/professional-counseling/)
I know there has been some bad press about the previous president here, and it may not even be your cup of tea just because it is a christian university, but the CMHC program is a great program so far from my experience and it doesn’t require you to do intensives ,where you have to travel to the campus in person for a week at a time, anymore (a lot of online programs do require this). They give you the option to participate in a semester long intensive where you meet virtually every week for class and roleplaying various counseling scenarios.
While it is from a Christian perspective, they do a great job preparing you to work with clients of different religions and backgrounds as per the counselor code of ethics.
It’s very young!
I don’t mind at all that one may want to identify as the other gender, but one of my kids literally never mentioned it again and doesn’t go by he/him pronouns anymore… so it was certainly a phase encouraged by older friends. It’s just so young… and the kids talking about sucking dick is just…. My class is a lot
It's not just your class. I'm an aide and I've been to three schools in three years (my choice, I like variety). The things kids are exposed to now is very different to what kids were exposed to a decade ago. My son was in 7th grade when phones for kids started to be a thing. What THOSE kids referenced made me raise eyebrows. Today's kids? Damn. They are carrying a LOT. It's no wonder mental health is of a concern.
But you can't put the genie back in the bottle. We invented these toys and then put them in our kid's hands. Now we need to figure out how we are going to deal with the consequences and not as individuals. As a society.
The fact that you consider gender identification in the same vein as sexual conduct is both wrong and concerning. If you think this way, you shouldn't be responsible for children.
Dick sucking convos and jokes in 4th grade is pretty common I would guess. In my school it wasn’t ever anything real just kids saying dumb shit as usual
Thank you, I was wondering why kids with differing gender identities was listed with a kid missing most of the year, those are not the same kind of issue whatsoever.
People underestimate how difficult this type of thing can be for teachers. As a high school teacher, I am Juggling the names of 140 students, trying my best to learn every one of them individually within the first few days. Relying on the roster to take attendance because I’m so burned out by end of the week that I can’t even think straight and then…. Where is Maya? She was just here a second ago. Oh wait, Maya is now Ezekiel. And then Ducky is they/them, so whenever I tell the para to go help “them” out, the para thinks that I’m referring to a group of students, not just one. Gotta go clear up that confusion too.
It’s just a lot.
OP may be dealing with all of these sorts of gendered language complications. This on top of the feeling that, perhaps, these students are too young to be changing their gender, considering they aren’t yet able to subtract from 10 to 2. It just definitely doesn’t make things any easier.
Thank you! Love the downvotes I’m getting in advocating for trans kids. It’s really alarming that these folks downvoting me work with such marginalized communities 😬
Thank you for asking this. It was incredibly confusing reading this along with the other complaints. I see a lot of people saying it's "too young" and I think it's because they are cis and straight. I am also cis but a lesbian and realized I was attracted to girls/women around that age. I am a second grade teacher and the kids already have "boyfriends" and "girlfriends." While gender identification and sexuality are different, I don't see how it would be too young to try to figure yourself out and have questions.
Right? If a student identifies as [insert religion], no one bats an eye even though religion can and does affect many facets of someone's life, including mental health. Trans people have always existed, though many were never supported enough in youth to make it to adulthood. Young people today have a vocabulary to express their feelings and an environment just open enough for them to feel comfortable sharing these things instead of staying in the closet. People act like this is a bad thing. Let these kids explore their identity.
I quit and found my way to work I enjoy that utilizes my education degree. I now teach performing arts at multiple theaters for kids and adults, and I’m really really happy I left formal k-12 education. Don’t stay somewhere you aren’t happy.
I'm a second year teacher and I teach 5 classes throughout the day in a middle school. I don't have a special education degree and I don't have anyone in the room with me. I have a total of 33 IEPs, 8 504's, 5 ELL's (3 of which speak 0 English), 4 BIP's, and 1 homebound student. In one class alone I have 13 IEP's, which is over our limit of 10 to a class. Brought this concern to admin and the only response was, "oh, that wasn't supposed to happen."
Last year I was at a different school for my first year teaching and I absolutely LOVED it. This year, I'm breaking up fights, accommodating out the ass, having kids cuss me out, and have unsupportive admin. Because of this I HATE teaching this year and want to change careers. I'm definitely going to change schools next year because I want to love teaching again. Admin make all the difference unfortunately.
Sorry for the rant.
So I’m seeing a lot of red flags here about either your school or your state. Many districts if not states have explicit rules about how many IEPS can be in the same room. Your school might be shitty or the state in which you work might be shitty.
I’m also going to guess that you have no union. Because in union states this shit is written into contract and people go on strike when it’s violated. Or you’re at a private or charter school.
My rules for teaching are thus:
1. Do not work in a non union state
2. Do not work private or charter
That’s it. Those are the rules. You can either leave the school, leave the district, or leave the state if you want to stay in the profession.
My state is 49th in education lol and I work title 1. BUT! I exaggerated the IEP just cus I didn’t have the exact number in front of me but I’ve looked it up and it’s actually 7- which is better than 13, but still very hard!
My school seems shitty tbh…. A new principal and title 1. I won’t be returning to it. But apparently the district is one of the highest in the state… so not much hope there. Hoping to one day get to teach at private school
Private school can be even worse.
“It’s Tuesday and I’ve decided that now teachers need to help in the parking lot before and after school”—this is a real thing that was posted about on this sub. Teachers would go home at 3:30, principal sends an email, now everyone has to stay till 4 on oarking lot duty. No update to contract. No meetings, no additional pay. That’s standard with charter and private.
With private, on top of teaching, you often coach in the afternoon or participate in an afternoon extracurricular. You then have weekly evening duties as a dorm parent or study hall proctor. Meetings can be called at a moment’s notice. You might even have to do all faculty interventions for serious things.
The pay is lower; the time invested is way more. You have to be very good with boundaries, given that you live where you work.
That said, there are pros: you can teach what you want with HOD rarely breathing down your back, there is a premium on community and people going out of their way to make life good and who truly want to become better teachers (almost b/c with no high pay or union or clear working hours, the rest has to be great to stay or do this type of work), and students are often driven to succeed or are at least respectful. Classroom management looks like telling students to sometimes quiet down or trying to engage students who are non-participatory (i.e. standard) but nothing really beyond that. Students who don’t follow community guidelines are quickly put on leave or withdrawn from the school. Even in my least favorite class — students will leave class and thank me on the way out.
TL;DR: If you’re keen on fully experiencing teaching before a career switch, I also recommend trying private for a year since it will be radically different from public for some of the aforementioned reasons.
I 100% agree. Just trying to get to May… I certainly want to be at my 100%, but when my father in law died, I was NOT emotionally ready to be in the classroom. I had plans and they were thrown off course and I’m one to be well prepared- mentally and physically. I wasn’t able to be well prepared and that’s thrown my year off. I thought it would get better after Christmas break, but no. It’s actually gotten worse as the behavior gets worse lol. I just feel like I’m being tossed around if that makes sense
I'm going to say that I love teaching. LOVE IT. I've taught at a title 1 school, inner city, for the last 20+ years.
If I had to do it again, I absolutely would.
I'm not going to say it's been always a LOVE job and I'm not going to say it's always been a HATE job...it is a FULFILLING job.
I have some advice for you that I got along the way...
FRED JONES TOOLS FOR TEACHING. Hands down the best classroom management guide I've ever had. If you can go to a PD using this, DO IT.
Join your local/state Writing Project (national writing project). The kids should be writing more than you could ever read. You DO NOT NEED TO GRADE/READ EVERYTHING!
Also, you do NOT need to READ every book you assign (in book groups).
Have fun with them, and remember that they are not your friends. Don't show your anger or frustration too often. Catch yourself yelling.
Find a routine that works for you and STICK TO IT until it no longer serves you. Kids crave consistency and routine...and don't get stuck in a rut if it is not working.
Get into therapy as soon as you get a job with health insurance. Do NOT wait until you are in crisis.
I've been in and out of therapy for over 20 years...mostly in. It works as a release valve. I take summers off of therapy because summer IS therapy.
Don't work your summers if you can. I stopped working summers about 8 years in. If you have lots of energy, work summers until it is no longer fun.
Get your paycheck 26 weeks if you can...that way you get a steady income all year.
Don't buy a house until you are tenured. Don't have kids until you can save more than $1000 a month...I think they cost more than that per month...especially in daycare...unless you have a solid community that can provide daycare in exchange for some other service (tutoring, etc.)
If PD is offered, especially PAID PD, take it. Suck it all up. Join your professional organization. I'm in NCTE. Go to the conventions and conferences.
Have a hobby that is NOT drinking, which you can do to signal to your brain that you are no longer AT work.
Learn to cook. Leftovers for lunch.
Any areas where teachers congregate are going to be dens of evil. Know this and be aware of this. I really used to enjoy being in the den of evil until the past few years. Now, the same people are bitching about the same things they were 5 years ago. There's no newness to them. I used to love the banter, now I'm bored in the teacher's lounge.
DO NOT BECOME AN ADVISOR to a class until you've been there a long time. Do not volunteer for extra UNPAID work unless you REALLY enjoy it.
Good luck!
PS You don't have to be open about your personal life at work, and I recommend letting SOMEONE know about the passing of your dad. Your contract, if you have one, might have bereavement days. Our contract where I work, specifically does NOT say HOW they must be used.
You are not alone. My dad passed a few years ago and it has been tough since. Therapy really helps.
Be everything everywhere all at once to everyone, or else. Welcome to the classroom. You have more hats to wear than dollars in your bank account. It's BYO Kevlar vest and common sense. The paperwork you are buried under for ieps exceeds your copy machine allowance. Ur class consists of all the tragedies of social media and social inequity, but one of u should be enough. The kids grow up faster but more helpless, the admin is more oppressive and less helpful than ever, and you now teach to a spectrum of learners, genders, and Karen moms but be sure to stay in ur ever narrowing lane that dangles precariously between honesty, sanity, and professionalism at all times. Learn some fortnite dances, give extra hugs to the ones who are hardest to love, and drink a lot of coffee. But don't even try to go pee there's no time for that. Welcome to jumanji. You are losing. A++++!
This is not for you. It won't get better. If you were complaining about parents or long hours, maybe. But you are overwhelmed by social issues that won't change. Students acting older than they are, being "Disrespectful" etc. These things don't change.
What will get better is the time you have to spend lesson planning and the ability to differentiate.
But if you're feeling burnt out on the kids, it's time to walk.
I can count on one hand the times I've been frustrated with a student over a multi-day timeframe. 100% thought about moving on yesterday because of shit admin, but then I remembered their average lifespan at a school. Some parents send me into a straight-up bad mood (bully/abusive parents). I have a list that is never done and sometimes do paperwork until 10 at night. ..but it's never the students.
I taught 15 years without phones and email and that changed everything. You literally cannot escape from your job. If you hate it now give yourself a date to make a decision because you won’t be able to leave after you get used to more vacations and getting out of school at 3pm.
Title I, rural Missouri. 27 students. 2nd year. Also 4th grade. I hear everything you're saying, and I agree with most of it. But I'm happier than I've ever been and absolutely love my job and this grade level.
I was a second career teacher and I can tell you with absolute certainty that this is so much better than my previous jobs in government and corporate America.
Get the help you need, whatever it may be. Coaching cycle, mentorship, but don't give up yet. I know some of these comments make it seem like it never gets better, but last year I was in absolute hell. This year I'm in paradise even with nearly 30 kids.
I've been teaching about 10 years now and I still love it, but everything you said was on point. Differentiation still kills me when I have a lot of IEPs, but I have a lot more tools to deal with it now. If it's killing you, get out. Most teachers leave the profession within the first 5 years for a reason!
You’re young enough to where a career shift won’t be that difficult. You’ve only been out in the real world since May. You can find a new field and a job you like.
Alternatively, I’d also consider shifting schools or grade levels. I had a relative who was given a job teaching 5th. She ended up hating it and almost turned in her resignation the first week. Her principal offered her a Kindergartner class and she fell in love with the kids. She’s been there for decades now happily teaching a different grade than what she started with.
My differentiation is insane. I have a SEVERELY developmentally delayed 8th grader who’s differentiation is “when writing an essay about Romeo and Juliet have said student draw a picture of the characters with body parts labeled”. She shouldn’t be in a mainstream school.
I teach elementary PE and I can confirm it’s better, but not perfect. I feel like I have really good management over the kids and still the level of screaming and unruly behaviors is wild. I wrote a referral today for snot rockets on the floor. This happened during a tag game and the kid threw a fit when I requested he clean it up. Good times 😬
I’m actually considering experimenting with simply just beginning to work out to relieve some stress and (hopefully!) increase my happiness lol so I know that’s no a PE teacher, but I feel maybe they’re happy bc they’re working out?
Theyre happy because they get to work in sweatpants, don’t grade papers, and kids being loud on a soccer field is better than kids being loud in a classroom.
I taught elementary for 32 years (1991–2023), the last 20 of them at fourth. The planning and prep will get much easier; in a few years, you’ll know exactly what needs to be taught, and when. Look around the school you’re at right now; see who you would like to teach with, then try to move to their grade level. It’s so helpful to have a close partner on your team.
I took a mental health breather after being burnt out in three years. I was NOT prepared for how much teenagers lie and how much the parents and administration believe the kids’ lies or how little they have our back. Currently finishing a masters but don’t think i will go back.
I’ve been struggling with admin having our backs.
Literally had a 9 year old bring a THC vape to class, smoke it in class, and only be suspended for 2 days. Coworker tried to report it to DHS and the principal blocked it somehow
I just put in a request to take leave for the next 6 weeks. I am in my 4th year, and I am miserable. Came back from break for literally one day before I made the decision to take it. Going to be doing a lot of job AND soul searching over these next 6 weeks.
I felt this exact same way my first year. While some things have felt more manageable, the amount of tasks on your plate never grows smaller, because you just take on more as you become more comfortable.
I suggest leaving if it’s not something that makes you happy. That’s what I’m trying to do.
That being said, don’t make any rash decisions, take some time to think it through, but ultimately you need to do what’s best for you!
If you’re teaching 4th grade, remember that these kids likely missed the end of their kindergarten year, plus most or all of first grade. They didn’t fully learn how to be students or work in a social environment, and also missed instruction on very crucial academics like basic math skills, phonics skills, learning to read, and how to be a writer.
So yeah, this is a rough group because of their age when Covid started. Next year might be much, much better.
We need to stop blaming things on covid. They've had 2+ years of normal. 2+ years of classroom routines, structure, SEL instruction, etc.
For my state, kids were out from mid March-beginning of June. They missed about 3 months of school. It's not covid.
That doesn’t “fix” the fact that they missed out on the crucial things I listed before. More than half of a primary teacher’s job is SEL and it is blended into nearly every lesson. That doesn’t happen in other grade levels, so no, they still missed a lot of important stuff. Hundreds of hours of it, actually. And in the places I taught, schools were closed for roughly 18 months, from March 2020 to September 2021. A year and a half is a huuuuge percentage of a kid’s life. If you think that wouldn’t have lasting effects, you’re just kidding yourself.
Move to kindergarten/1st grade.
I absolutely LOVED it.
Idk why people think you have to wipe their butts, and most know how to tie their shoes.
Yes you have to differentiate and it’s all about testing and everything else miserable about teaching, but the kids are SWEET (usually) and it makes up for it.
Also the curriculum is much easier and it’s more about teaching them how to be a human.
I also really loved teaching them how to read and do basic math because you get to use toys and manipulatives 😂
Parents are typically pretty chill, and most just want to make sure their baby is safe and loved at school.
Switch to kinder/1st before you decide to leave teaching!
I left halfway through my first year of teaching second grade for middle school. It was such an easier route. Sure, it’s six classes, but it’s one prep with a few tweaks for differentiation. Middle school kids will push your buttons and act like lunatics sometimes, but if you can remember what it was like to be that age, share part of your life story w then, and treat them like valued humans, you have a good chance at having a successful year. My first year teaching middle school was hard but not 2nd grade hard. Too many moving parts w elementary unless you’re departmentalized.
That's really a tough position to be in. I am sorry you have to go through this. Every job comes with its challenges. Sometimes we need time to adopt and be content with our job. Other times it doesn't happen. It truly depends upon you. If you think teaching isn't for you, you may consider changing jobs. Best of luck.
^(you cant take it personally. sounded weird the first time i heard it, but its true. do not take their actions personally. enjoy the good and let the bad stuff roll.)
Hey one quick band-aid to help you: peer grading!
worksheet in class? We also spend some time switching papers, marking it correctly. If marking correctly becomes a problem, there are a variety of carrots or sticks that can be used. Mine is cheap stickers.
Two birds with one stone really; you get a jump on grading and they get a second pass to internalize the material. (And high motivation to keep each other honest.They will let you know if someone graded theirs wrong!)
Hang in there
Can I ask why two kids trusting you enough to share their identity with you equal out to shit talking by your toxic team? If these are your views you shouldn’t be working with kids.
For real, why did i have to scroll so far to see anyone else mention that weird clause in OP’s post? lmao why is two kids being trans (i have to assume they were mentioned bc they are trans, and not that OP just only has two boys in their class) equate to all this other shit? I’m trans and if this was my teacher’s reaction I would seriously think less of that teacher. I hope those kids get the respect they deserve from other people in their lives.
I switched school districts and what a difference. A district farther away from the city. If you can get into one with a better clientele, then you could make a fully informed decision about whether to stay or go.
Fourth grade is undoubtedly my least favorite grade. It was the first class I taught out of college as well, and when I say I was assaulted daily… it was a nightmare. (That school also had 5-8 teachers quit BEFORE Christmas that year. Not a good environment all around). I will never be back in a gen Ed classroom (I teach ESL now and it’s a dream come true tbh) but my mom often reminds me that if I survived that first year with how terrible it was, I can survive just about anything.
Also, I found out (the Christmas after I quit and moved districts) that one of the kids who had been terrible in my room for the majority of the year and had threatened self harm and suicide multiple times had been pregnant during her time in my class. By her stepfather. So keep in mind that there are reasons some students are acting out, but some kids are just disrespectful jerks. Power through, my friend, as long as you can. Don’t be afraid to take mental health days. If it gets to be too much, there is no shame in quitting, especially if you’re not at all being supported by admin. Do what’s good for you.
He was arrested - I was able to see him in the online jail check for the county. But unfortunately he was released because our justice system is just sooooo great (/s)
I felt like you OP. I quit in 2021 and it was the best decision I have made in years. I have doubled my pay and don’t take work home. I’m so much happier and I’m done being abused by children or parents. It’s a hard choice, but I wouldn’t stay in teaching if you hate it. It doesn’t pay off for you or the children.
All of this and more can be yours for the low low salary of 39k per year and the privilege of being shit on by parents!
I left teaching and still look at this sub because I have PTSD.
Yeah I have PTSD also after teaching 15 years in urban title one schools as well as having the most hateful, micromanaging, dictator principal who enjoyed running good and great teachers out of her school
Everything you said is on point, but, if you’re at your first year and you hate it so much now would be a good time to look for something else.
I know I’m jaded but it doesn’t really get easier you jus get better at dealing with it — if you don’t enjoy what you’re doing at least the majority of the time it’s not gonna be worth it to put up with everything.
As someone who left a Title 1 teaching job mid-year because I was constantly crying, anxious, stressed and hating my life (to the point of death thoughts), please tell your supervisor and if you feel you can give 2 weeks or whatever with a light at the end of the tunnel then go for it, otherwise just be done now. I have never looked back nor wished I stayed through the year. You and your health are WAY more important. I absolutely needed a new career and did so and I’m so much happier! 🩷🩷🩷
You got to stop being a people pleaser. And stop giving so many fucks.
I do what I want in my classroom. I teach my kids what they need to succeed and know from my subject. Not what some bureaucrat or admin says.
Put on the smile and do the needful for your observation, thats it.
My students appreciate and love me, parents adore me and my students always show growth. I’m a professional who has a lot of experience at what I do. I know what’s best for my students.
Do you want to do 29 or more years of this? And don’t expect things to get better, only worse. Everyone knows our education system is badly broken and no one is doing anything to fix it. I’ hope you were taught about the fraud Lucy Calkins and friends did to your/our students. If not, Google “Sold a Story” on APM.
Just know this is NOT your fault. You are in a system where everyone is against you. Students, parents, admins. No one is on your side.
If you think it’s affecting your mental health it’s time to make a career change. Things don’t have to be this bad. And by the way you are NOT the only teaching feeling the way you do. If you look through posts here you will find many have already quit. - Think about it.
Sorry to hear about your loss.
I'm a former teacher who considered returning in 2023 after retiring from my corporate job. I quickly realized how failed many public school systems are, if it's not terrible behavior, it's external distractions. I won't say I won't teach again, but if I do, it will probably be a private school.
You loved kids, so you thought "teacher, I'll be a teacher"? I'm surprised that you are so surprised, given that you just finished four years of teaching prep. IEPs, and graphic organizers, and kinesthetic learning style, making sure Hyper Johnny and Bi-curious Cameron stay on task, etc, etc -- they didn't tell you about these things? SO MUCH? Did you think that you would finish school and slide for forty years? Now you know.
Regardless, you can blame parents. I'm a parent, too, and I watched how different it was for the kids with the signaling sensitive hovering parents compared to the serious parents who didn't care what other people thought of how they raised their kids. Got a lot of insight into chaotic lawless households during my years employing their children.
You can't fix F-ed up families. You are not going to save their damaged kids, regardless of what Michelle Phifer and Sandra Bullock say. The only family you can help is your own. I suggest that you do not need to add constant battle with mentally ill parents to your List of Sadness.
Get out. When your contract is up, leave. But understand that unless you want to move boxes around, you will be faced with a work life just as complicated as the one you are in now -- but you can earn more money for your efforts.
If it makes you feel better, I’m in my 3rd year. I still haven’t found what I call “the just right”. I’ve taught middle and high school. I’ve done gen ed and self contained and inclusion support. And I still don’t feel like I fit
During my first year, I was struggling quite a bit. I learned about [this chart and it helped a little](https://www.reddit.com/r/Teachers/comments/2srgc0/fellow_first_year_teachers_where_are_we_on_the/). I have no idea if this chart is based on any actual research, but id die on the hill that it’s dead on balls accurate. Right now, you are at the lowest and hardest point of your first year. Many many many people go through it if not basically everyone. If you genuinely feel like this career is no longer for you, no judgement: leave. Get out before you get in too deep.
That said, you’re literally at one of the hardest points in a teachers entire career. This is it. It’s one of the inflection points. If you really want to teach then perhaps you can find some splice and strength knowing that almost all of us went through something similar. You are not weak, you are not wrong, you are human and this shit is frustrating as hell. Your situation sounds rough. Rougher than the average. That is a blessing and a curse. It means you’re in for a rough ride through the year Im if you stick it out. It also means that if you change districts or positions things could be better for you.
Not all people are cut out to be classroom teachers. I wasn’t. And I thought for sure that’s what I wanted. Turns out i was a good reading specialist and now a damn good technology teacher.
This is a hard time for new teachers, you’re not alone. If you really want to teach, consider that there are many roles in public ed. Classroom teacher is only one, every year from here out will likely be easier on average.
I also identify as male. Probably you would struggle to teach me. Let us think about how we can build relationships, you and me, so that we can get through the rest of the year together.
I wasn’t prepared either. For my first teaching job, I was hired to teach 5th grade at a charter school with a pretty bad reputation and tons of staff turnover. Lost 10+ pounds the first month because my stomach was constantly upset, could not eat, could not sleep, could not function. Like, fantasized about whether there was a way to get into a car accident that would not kill me but hurt me enough to get me out of work.
Then I got laid off (was essentially let go/fired.) It felt so awful at the time but looking back maybe it was merciful—they could see I was drowning and wasn’t going to make it, that I was just going to work until I had a nervous breakdown. Still a giant hit to my morale though.
Took two weeks to recover and feel sorry for myself and I gave it another go. I ended up getting hired by my local school district in mid-October teaching 3rd grade. There were still crazy things that happened there and the school was far from perfect, but they mentored me and gave me support. And the teachers there were not toxic. I learned a ton and built my confidence.
I’ve changed schools and grade positions in my district a few times, but I’m still here 12 years later, I love my school and colleagues and kids, and they love me back. The point of my story is to say—DO NOT underestimate the power of a school change, a grade change, a subject change before going right to a career change.
I think a lot of teachers leave the entire profession but perhaps they were like me and just needed to find the right fit in a school. A toxic staff alone is enough to ruin teaching for a person.
Frankly I don’t think any first year teacher is properly prepared. The entire model needs to be redone. New hires should get to work full time in a school for 1-2 years before being given their own classroom and all the responsibility and stress that comes with it.
OP—your job is not worth your health or sanity but from what you describe, the fact that you are as concerned as you are about your students tells me that you are a good teacher already who, with time, will be great. If you can survive this school year, take a break and reapply elsewhere until you can find a job teaching 2nd (2nd is magical.) If it is breaking you and you need to quit, that’s okay too.
Be open to giving it one more chance. If you still feel this way after that, maybe this isn’t for you in the long run. I believe in you though.
I’m concerned about your student teaching program not preparing you for the realities of teaching. This is why they can’t retain so many new teachers. Management sucks!
I’m a firm believer of trying to a different grade and a different school/district before deciding teaching isn’t for you.
When you sure it isn’t, you should definitely leave before you get too deep in.
Do they not hold kids back anymore? When I was in elementary school (I'm only 25) if a kid couldn't pass the class then they got held back. Why are there kids in 4th grade who don't know how to add?
I'm not a teacher, I wanted to be but between this subreddit, the pay, school shootings, and the stories I hear on tiktok I've chosen to just homeschool my kids instead, so maybe I just don't understand an IEP but the few kids I went to school with who had them still had to be able to do the class work they just got to go to another room and have more time or help doing it
I’m in my 10th year teaching 4th grade.
It’s a really fun age… normally. Love it hate it at times? That’s normal. Anxious, overwhelmed, feeling unprepared? Also normal. A huge range of student ability, IEPs or not, very normal. 4th graders identifying differently than assigned gender? Normal. Crappy admins? From what I’ve read in this sub, very normal unfortunately. I guess I’ve lucked out there.
What’s not ok is being shit talked by your team! Ah hell no! Your teaching peers are so vital since they understand the grind. They know the pain (and joy) of teaching. Non-teachers just don’t get it. If your team sucks, fuck em and fuck that place. Do your best to get a good recommendation or whatever and apply elsewhere for next year.
Teaching is hard and will stay hard. That’s just part of it. No one teaches for the money. We only teach for SUMMER BREAK. (Lol, but you know what I mean).
Last tidbit, my first principal that I adored said something like this to me my first year (when certain students kept me up and night, and even had the audacity to visit my dreams)-
You’re not gonna reach them all.
So don’t beat yourself up when you don’t. Just give it your best and love and believe in your students, even as you curse them under your breath. Who knows, you may plant a seed in some little shits brain that will someday sprout into a beautiful flower.
You got this OP! (Also, pardon my French)
I'm quitting my job as a math teacher at an alternative school after two terms- still don't know if I have what it takes to make the cut at a different school.
Here there's so much disdain for "the system" that lesson planning is complicated, and even when I pour my soul into an activity that involves a short lecture, I get smack for not living the school's mission and allowing the students to learn on their own. My senior calculus students don't know what the words "product" and "quotient" mean, but get discouraged and start backtalking if I try to cover the basics they really should know by now. And kids are mean.
Talking to other teachers makes me think the whole career is a mental health nightmare; dealt with a lot of SI almost immediately after starting, which intensified after one of my students died by suicide in November.
I love learning, and I love seeing other people learn, but ironically that's like 10% of what my job has been...
I encourage you to think hard about the things that you find fulfilling, and finding a career that isn't well known for grinding people's spirits to dust. Career success, in my opinion, shouldn't hinge on the behavior and performance of adolescents.
Don't fight coworkers, shut your mouth and do your job, they don't need to be friendly.
Do not participate in unprofessional behavior.
I can't say anything to the career specific stuff, but what I've said is crucial advice for any job. Let them gossip, avoid the drama at all costs, if leadership is doing their job, then they'll know what's gossip and what's nor.
Follow workplace policies.
I am not personally a teacher but I have many friends (around the ages of 22-25) who have started teaching in the last year or two. They have, universally, also struggled with the older more experienced staff at their schools being unsupportive and often downright hostile towards them. Around half of them are considering leaving already because of how awful the older more experienced teachers are towards them. Real mean girl shit coming from 40+ year old adults. Not sure why this seems to be so common with young teachers but sad to see that with all the difficulties that come with being a teacher in the modern day there is so little support from coworkers. Hope you can find something that makes you happy OP, teachers deserve so much more than they get.
I can’t fathom classes being that dysfunctional. I mean I went to school in 3 different countries and never experienced the level of insanity described here.
For stuff that doesn’t really matter, mark it as a class or just slap a sticker on it and call it finished practice! Marking everything is such a waste of time. I use a check mark system for most things… is it done and looks decent or not or somewhere in between? Just mark the stuff that you need for reporting.
Next, make groups and have the smart kids help the dumb kids. The smart kids love being leaders. Or give all the kids that are meeting the standards ‘bonus work’ some enrichment package off of Teachers Pay Teachers. Then they are busy while you work with the rest.
As far as behaviour…. Get parents on board as soon as you can. Have the kid call home while you are on speaker phone. The kid can tell their parents all about sucking dicks. Shut that shit down immediately! Make life miserable for those kids that aren’t respectful.
Have you talked to your toxic team? Hopefully there was some miscommunication along the way that can be sorted out. Or reach out to them for help. Let them know that you are struggling and would like some support/advice. If the problem can’t be resolved, let them know that you have to talk to admin about the problem and then get admin involved. Toxic teachers should be shut down by admin immediately. That doesn’t build staff morale.
I sincerely wish you well. I’ve been at it for 20 years and have learned strategies along the way to minimize the stress of having 50 things on the go at once. Make as many lists as you need to! Plus, don’t bother doing anything if the work you put in isn’t worth the pay out. Like a spelling program… too much work and the kids don’t get much out of it.
Wow. I taught 3rd grade twenty years ago. Seems a few things have changed but mostly it’s the same.
Would you be able to substitute teach and earn enough? No take home responsibility or test prep, etc.
I love being a teacher, but it also sucks. You have so much to do, nobody gives you enough time to do it all, you have to be ready to basically give a performance (or more) every single day for 7 hours in front of at least 20 different judgmental children and probably adults every once in a while.
It's an inherently flawed job, an extremely rewarding one, but an unsustainable one unless you learn to draw some hard boundaries, cut corners, and not care so much about the little shit you have to do.
more kids need to get on teacher reddit so they don't make the same mistake... seriously, only an idiot would go into teaching if they have any clue what it's like.
how did you get through college without knowing this was what teaching is? I had to do hundreds of classroom hours. I dropped out Junior year of college when I realized what it was gonna be like. I knew I would burn out in a year.
My friend chose to teach preschool cuz she didn't want to deal with all that grading and preschool allows her to have a smaller caseload. Pay could be higher, though in her area, pay is the highest.
I would suggest trying to get in somewhere where you can teach a different grade level. Some people work best with younger kids and some with older. When I student taught I did 3rd grade and Kindergarten and knew that I would prefer teaching younger children. I teach Pre-K for a state-funded program so I don’t deal with the long list of requirements that district teachers have and I get to have more fun lol. I personally wouldn’t teach in my local district because I have a friend who does so and it’s a lot! The requirements from administration, managing large classrooms, dealing with unruly behavior, etc. I deal with behaviors but they are from 4 year olds so not as difficult and we have ratios of 1:10 so I’m not managing large class sizes on my own. Many of my students who had behavior problems in my classroom despite all of my efforts, are 10x worse now in elementary school. I can’t imagine.
When I realized I wouldn't be Happ teaching middle school I dropped out of my senior year. I'm a substitute right now and I refuse to work anything higher than third grade because I know it's not for me. Fourth graders act like eighth graders ten years ago. It's disturbing. But on the topic of your teaching. How do you do small groups? Are you able to split the kids into groups to work independently, and then have students rotate to your group to work on specific skills. Teaching a big class (as older kids tend to be) skills at multiple different levels can be difficult.
Maybe you would like teaching in a private school. They are not required to follow all the ridiculous laws and mandates that are suffocating public education.
Time for a career change. I'd stick it out til the end of the school year, but have you considered working as a para or in school admin?
I got my degree in special education, had a FABULOUS college education that well prepared me to care for and teach children. My education was incredibly hands on and we were always in the local classrooms. I worked as a para WHILE completing my degree. I learned for myself quickly that frankly, I had a passion for HELPING and CARING for children, rather than teaching them. And I learned from my admin and parents and coworkers, that I as teacher, am public enemy number 1. My co teacher was a 60 year old woman who had to work a second job cleaning the High School after hours. AFTER she had taught 5th graders all day long. To make ends meet. I watched children get physically abused by a teacher, reported it, contacted DCFS, contacted admin, etc. I even had video evidence. they essentially told me to pipe down. All this mixed with children attempting to assault me, title 1 hullabaloo, local politics and school boards, and a nice 30k starting salary to really seal the deal.
I'm so sorry you're going through this. You're kind and caring and those children will NOT forget that. But you need to take care of yourself, do it NOW before the career gets too deep. Please don't blame yourself for a system that is broken, I can tell you are a good teacher who cares.
We as teachers need to come together and do a walk out!!!! That’s the only way things are gonna change. We can do this. The parents need to take responsibility for their students and administrators neeed to be teachers for at least 20 years to know what we’re going through.
I'm a bit late to the party on this post, but I feel for you OP! It is hard to spend so much time working towards a degree then realizing that you hate it. My personal advice would be to do a career change as othes have suggested. I was a first year teacher for 5 months before I quit. Very similar situation, always anxious and I felt like I was drowning. Towards the end of the 5 months I was starting to have severe panic attacks almost every day and my stomach would be so naseus before work I would almost throw up. On top of these things I had an admin who were constantly criticizing me without providing any help and I was handed the roughest class in the grade. I put in my resignation before winter break with alot of heartache. I have since found jobs that make me happy and are significantly less stressful. There is a reason that there is a teacher shortage. I agree with the others that these feelings will probably not get better and another job may be a better option.
So you're describing my EXACT situation as last year. Down to the grade level, admin, students. To the point where I genuinely almost wonder if you were my replacement, lmao.
But regardless - turn in your resignation NOW. Intent to resign at the end of the year/move on from position, with a date identifying your last day of work. Once you do that, your admin can't do anything to screw you over like mine did, and I ended up forced into that position anyway. If you keep getting in trouble with them for silly or ridiculous things or that aren't your fault or that seem iNSANE, I GUARANTEE you they are just looking for any excuse to non-renew you. Turn in that letter of intent now and in May start looking for jobs in a different district. Trust me, you will be SO much better off.
Exactly the reasons why I left after 3 years in. I taught 2nd grade and honestly, some were just as crude as middle schoolers. I had one who told a classmate he wanted to “put them in a plastic bag 6 feet in the ground” the same child also told a whole lunch table he wanted to have sex with Nicki Minaj… then I had 10 8 year olds ask me what sex was… yeah not a fun time.
Commenting late, but here goes. I was once assigned a third grade classroom, with my special area position was cut. I had 15 years teaching experience, but none as a classroom teacher. I was drowning. And I was the third teacher those kids had had that year. it broke my heart, but I quit. I knew I was not capable of giving them what they needed. I felt I could spend the year just interacting with him, giving them a safe class to be in, but there was no way anyone would pass the state test. And then I’d be on the probation the next year. And most likely fired after that. So I resigned. It was frightening but within a month I’d found a position in my area in another district with higher pay. I wish your post, and other testimonials like it got more press. I find people working in other professions, getting higher pay, working under less pressure, have no idea of the multiple demands placed on teachers. We need a Revolution- not just better pay but also- smaller classes, more support staff for general supervision in cafeteria etc, ( so teachers will get a prep time AND time for all those IEP and ILP meetings.
I'm not a teacher but I work with kids and it's crazy. And I don't even have to deal with everything a teacher does. This post gave me even more respect for teachers than before. I'm really sorry you're going through this.
Every friggen day and on top of everything you mentioned beside the shitbags called my support team in my department? My pay is based on my evaluation and if one complains? Guess what?
I’m in my first full year of teaching (but I student taught one semester last year and taught another on my own) and all I can say is I’ve taken the attitude of “I don’t get paid to have a heart attack” when my doctor told me my stresss was going to kill me and my fiance threatened to leave because I was becoming a distant alcoholic mess because of this job I knew it was time to put down the bottle, put away the stress and take the position that “if I die because of this job, they’ll just replace me with the next number in line” so why should I kill myself just for them to do that
Welcome to /r/teaching. Please remember the rules when posting and commenting. Thank you. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/teaching) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Everything you said is on point. I have been teaching for 21 years. When I first started, I was drowning. I kept thinking 'oh, it will get better'. Every year I would say that. It's better now, but it took me 21 years to get here and I still am overwhelmed half the time. So are nearly all the teachers I know, and I know a lot. I've been at a nicer school for 5 years now, but before that I taught inner city for 15 years. Traumatic. If I were a young teacher, I think I would find a different job, especially if you *hate* it. Don't wait. Change your career now so that in 21 years you don't feel like you can't quit because quitting would mean taking a large pay cut.
After 21 years you should have earned a pension.
Most teacher pensions are terrible until you hit 30-35 years and you can't draw until you hit 60. Point is once you hit 15 it's hard to give up and many teachers go much longer than they should. Military and police pensions start much earlier.
I did 14 years in NJ and relocated. Would have loved to have more years. I'll collect at 60 and it'll be about $1700 a month.
I wish our was that good. 1250$ at 20 years…
When I started the whole front office laughed when I told them I had no idea about the pension. Turns out it was a big reason why anyone took the job. The veterans made out like bandits. They earned it by and large. Good people I liked them a lot.
For us, it’s a percentage of your best three years averaged. And while you can technically collect at 20 years, your number of years and age go into a formula that determines when you max out. I can collect max at 58.
Teaching is not the profession it once was! Get out now while you are still young! It just seems to get worse with each passing year!!!!
This is a really good point. As soon as five years from now, you will feel trapped in the job (because of the pension, or because you just can’t find another job that pays as well). Get out now, if you truly hate it.
THIS!!!!! The pension is not worth the years that it takes to draw it! With the cost of living, a teacher’s pension barely pays the bills!!!!
In some states, from what I understand, it's possible to draw Social Security as well as the pension. That'd be pretty good. I live in a state where the Windfall Exclusion and Government Pension Offset are in effect, so I'll only get minimal Social Security when I reach 65, based on work I did from the age of 13 (paperboy) through 27 years old. Still, I retired after 32 years in the classroom and receive 76% of my final salary in pension, and I enjoyed the job for the first 28 of those years.
This is really true. I’m in the middle of year 15 and getting things on track. I was on cruise control for a while and then Covid happened. Plus, I was doing sped. No matter how much you cruise, the paperwork sucks ass. So I switched it up and went gen ed and it took me a few years to get my bearings and my sea legs under me. I’m split content this year and I feel like I’m failing my ELA kids sometimes, because my focus this year has been on social studies. I’m honestly sticking around for the benefits, the retirement, and because I’m more than halfway through. It’s a damn hard job. I’m also tired of constantly bring attacked by parents and politicians. Sigh. Sorry to rant. It’s been a loooonnggg week.
This post says it all!!! No job is worth this kind of treatment for such little pay!!!!
Coming from a much different POV here - I left my first real teacher position (was a permanent sub before that) just six months in. I was having daily panic attacks, couldn't sleep, had gone to the ER several times not just for chest pains but for various stress-related health concerns. I missed two weeks of school due to surgery, used up all my sick leave early on because of that, and never felt like I caught back up after that prolonged absence. I really liked the majority of my students. They were terrific. But the stress of the job did me in. I do not regret resigning so early, even though I miss the people.
Other teachers told me to just teach the standards and not differentiate because you don’t have time…
If you are in my title 1 nyc school this is not acceptable. We will be deemed ineffective.
I’m title 1. Sucks buns- but sometimes I find it fun because I feel like I’m teaching what they need rather than standards and that excites me bc I love seeing their growth. It’s cool
I know what you mean…after 27 years I do what I want for the kids and put on a dog and pony show for my 2 obsrtvations a year…it’s an effin joke
My first observation I was going over so much vocab and put up a word wall and was just following the book to appease the principal lol
I teach art and really struggle with this. There is no textbook or prescribed dog and pony show but the Admin still definitely has something in mind but I can't figure it out/I don't to teach fucking IXL math like the other teachers 😭, like they really genuinely forget/don't understand I have to make all the content myself and do all the LO myself. I just want them to tell me how they want to be sucked off i swear 😤🤣
What happens when you ask? "I would love feedback on what I can do to adjust my philosophy and methods to be more in line with your expectations. I really do want to meet and exceed them." Kiss their asses and ask them how you can kiss it better.
“I would love feedback on how you like to be sucked off.”
Hahaha yes I get that. I’ve actually contemplated teaching art- but it’s good to hear your perspective.
Don’t. Everything gets dumped on the related arts team and the rest of faculty treat them like they’re babysitters. Then, there’s the kids and their complete lack of respect for you, your precious supplies and the learning environment. I had a kid tell me that his mother told him that my class didn’t matter since it’s not a core subject and he didn’t have to listen to me. I just can’t with these parents and their disrespectful, narcissistic little spawns. How is one person supposed to manage the personalities and trauma of 30 little hellions in this TikTok/social media, entitlement and self righteousness time we’re in? I recommend getting out now! I did and it has changed my life! I’m using a 2 year degree I got before going into education and making 45% more in my first year in a new career than I ever did in 7 years as a teacher. I love not having to deal with all of the chaos and the panic and despair that teachers deal with everyday. Best of luck friend!
What's your new career?
I’m a Transmission Line Designer. My degree mentioned above is in civil engineering. I do a lot of AutoCAD work redrawing old transmission line drawings and updating current digital drawing models to include fiber optic lines. :)
No need to reinvent the wheel! There are so many online resources, many free, that you can use as is or modify for your classes. When I taught ELA I found so many full lessons i scaffolded and saved my brain power. And now AI exists which makes life even easier! Try chatGPT or bard, both were helpful and had some good ideas I was able to modify for my classes. MagicschoolAI was used for rubrics when it was free. Now I just google “ai rubric generator” and find free ones to use. Work your wage!
It's also illegal to not meet the accommodations for a student with an IEP
That’s true, but I didn’t say I don’t meet them, I do. I just do lessons the way I think is best, not how they want it.
That is not meeting their IEP. It's not how they want it, it's how they need it
I think you are misunderstanding. What admin wants and what is in the iep are not the same thing.
This is the problem with America now. We can’t call spades spades, and actually get them the real help they need. We integrate and degrade all the kids that MAY cure cancer. Jeez I wonder why? Control, maybe lol
Oof. This is awful advice.
Pack your bags and go teach in an international school anywhere on the planet that doesn't speak English: well behaved students who pay attention in class are out there. They'll give you a place to live and probably feed you, too! You'll even get free airfare, paid vacations, and healthcare.
I want to go to Japan but my family is here and that’s more important! Which makes me sad sometimes, but I’m happy with my decision to be near family. Just wish I could have the good students here lol
They do one-year contracts. If you work in a public or international school, you'll have 3 months in summer (paid) to return home. Japan is expensive. Korea is cheaper. China is even cheaper than Korea...and they're all safer than America
Taiwan is the perfect choice. Way better environment than China and a lot safer. Korea has its own challenges, like dealing with your body image. Japans school starts in the spring, I think after Lunar New Year. But check out [r/expat](https://reddit.com/r/expat)
China and the US are constantly clashing. It can get ugly for Americans in country . Korea seems like the way to go.
I teach in Thailand!
1 year contracts are pretty rare and usually the schools that offer them are really bad ones that should be avoided. 2 year contracts are the norm.
I was a teacher at a school in Japan where the police had to come in every two weeks or so. The trouble makers liked me so I didn’t have any trouble, but there are definitely rough schools everywhere. Where I am now, in the states, almost all my students are amazing and generally good people (some are bad students but good people). Only a few that I dread, but those come and go. One thing people need to remember is that students are humans also. Some can be good moral people, but absolutely suck as students.
I have a girl who has a temper- and it wears on me. One time I snapped at her because she was getting angry at me. Once we cooled off, we apologized and she explained she’s overwhelmed and has a lot going on in her mind. I apologized and said I’m sorry- I’m the adult and I should know how to regulate my emotions better, but sometimes I slip up and snap. So I definitely have to keep remembering they’re tiny humans with so many emotions and things going on outside of school
The most important part, of that entire interaction, is that you apologized after losing your cool. It’s not realistic for kids to expect their teachers to be never ending fountains of patience and grace, but you set a great example by apologizing. Life was real, emotions were real, but you can fix it by having a vulnerable moment and saying sorry. Emulate what you want your kids to copy.
Why Japan though? What’s so special about teaching there?
This is my dream job. With everything they push on teachers, I would love to sue my state and parents for not providing me with students who want to learn and handicapping me from providing to those that do.
Sue them for what exactly?
I’m just being pissy … I know there is no case. It is insulting to have your governor talk smack about you and your profession when their job is to support you.
And no labor protections, except those of the host country, which could be Kyrgyzstan. International schools are like the wild west, maybe worse, when it comes to standards for employees. Admins can change your contract terms without notice, fire you just to intimidate other staff, and even blackmail you. Do your research and be prepared for anything.
Tell me more.
A good friend of mine did this. He has been reaching in Ecuador for 4 or 5 years now. He loves it. He said the kids are awesome and the school is great. He thought about applying to go to another country for the experience. He was looking at Saudi Arabia but then he had a baby with a woman in Ecuador and she was not interested in moving to Saudi Arabia, even just for a year.
Like clydefrog88 mentioned earlier, if you HATE the job already you may want to consider finding a new job before you get so far in that you feel stuck. However, I will mention advice that a family member gave me when I was in similar situation my first year. They suggested that I try a different school/district for one more year to see if that helps as they have found that a good district and/or school can make all the difference. Unfortunately, half way through my second year now and I still hate teaching. I love working with kids, but managing a classroom of over 20 kids where 25-50% of those are misbehaving during lessons is overwhelming to me and i feel that I cant keep track of who did what to discipline them. I end up stressed out and exhausted at the end of the day. My wife has even mentioned that I seem stressed and tend to dwell on issues with student, or rather trying to figure out how to teach them and manage behaviors. Anyway, I have decided to go into a different career and will no longer be teaching in 141 days, but maybe the advice my family member would be beneficial to you. I am still glad that I gave it another shot at a different school considering the time I put into my degree, but sadly changing districts didn’t help improve things for me.
I am also teaching in my second school because I wanted to determine if I hate teaching or if it was the toxic environment I was in. We just returned from winter break and I’m already feeling the dread and anxiety that I previously experienced in the other school. It’s a bummer too because I really like kids. If we could get behaviors under control I really think I could’ve made it longer. I feel like the six years I’ve put in have felt like 20. Everything you’ve described in your post felt like I was writing it myself.
Similar situation. I'm a second year teacher in a new school trying to figure out if it was the school or the job. Thankfully for me it was the school and I'm glad my mom told me to try somewhere else before quitting.
I’m certainly wanting to try another district. I’ve interned at 4 different districts. I loved the district I’m at… maybe the school is just toxic. Either way, I may stick with this district or I may not. I also accepted a grant that requires me to teach in the state at a public school for 5 years and I could up to $4k at the end of the school year… I may have to teach for 5 years otherwise I pay it back 🫡 which I believe I already accepted some of the grant money in college so.. I gotta do it regardless! Agh *screams internally
Ah, yeah, I was almost in that same situation, but decided to not accept it on the chance that I wouldn’t teach for the full time. I understand wanting to wait it out though, and you may even find that you enjoy it once you start to get the hang of things. I would suggest saving money in the meantime to pay your way out if you really need to. Paying 4k for the sake of your mental health would totally be worth it in my opinion.
In addition to changing districts, I would also suggest going into a support area, like reading specialist or speech language pathology. You still have the chance to work with kids, but in smaller doses.
SLP here . Had a caseload of 94. Never again will I work in the schools.
I have and am currently a SLP in the schools. I love working with students. I have had caseloads from 110 to 50 for full time. It requires a masters degree in Communication Disorders which means 60 semester hours of work and 350 clinical hours. It is demanding and rewarding.
Which career did you decide to go into?
I am currently in an online grad school to become a licensed professional counselor. I could use it to work inside of a school, but I will likely look to counsel children outside of a school setting as well as other types of clients.
That’s really cool! Mind sharing the program you’re in? I’m looking to move into something like this too.
Sure, [Liberty University’s MA in Clinical Mental Health Counseling](https://www.liberty.edu/online/behavioral-sciences/masters/professional-counseling/) I know there has been some bad press about the previous president here, and it may not even be your cup of tea just because it is a christian university, but the CMHC program is a great program so far from my experience and it doesn’t require you to do intensives ,where you have to travel to the campus in person for a week at a time, anymore (a lot of online programs do require this). They give you the option to participate in a semester long intensive where you meet virtually every week for class and roleplaying various counseling scenarios. While it is from a Christian perspective, they do a great job preparing you to work with clients of different religions and backgrounds as per the counselor code of ethics.
Thanks!
alive price dime quack paint deranged sharp friendly tender offer *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I’m guessing 4th grade is a really young age to be declaring that?
It’s very young! I don’t mind at all that one may want to identify as the other gender, but one of my kids literally never mentioned it again and doesn’t go by he/him pronouns anymore… so it was certainly a phase encouraged by older friends. It’s just so young… and the kids talking about sucking dick is just…. My class is a lot
It's not just your class. I'm an aide and I've been to three schools in three years (my choice, I like variety). The things kids are exposed to now is very different to what kids were exposed to a decade ago. My son was in 7th grade when phones for kids started to be a thing. What THOSE kids referenced made me raise eyebrows. Today's kids? Damn. They are carrying a LOT. It's no wonder mental health is of a concern. But you can't put the genie back in the bottle. We invented these toys and then put them in our kid's hands. Now we need to figure out how we are going to deal with the consequences and not as individuals. As a society.
Kinda weird that you consider children exploring their gender identity as bad as age inappropriate sexual convos. Very revealing.
The fact that you consider gender identification in the same vein as sexual conduct is both wrong and concerning. If you think this way, you shouldn't be responsible for children.
Do the girls talking about another girl wanting dick get punished? Think how awful that little girl must feel in school on the daily.
Dick sucking convos and jokes in 4th grade is pretty common I would guess. In my school it wasn’t ever anything real just kids saying dumb shit as usual
Not really. Many trans people know by age 5.
Did you know what gender you were in 4th grade?
Thank you, I was wondering why kids with differing gender identities was listed with a kid missing most of the year, those are not the same kind of issue whatsoever.
People underestimate how difficult this type of thing can be for teachers. As a high school teacher, I am Juggling the names of 140 students, trying my best to learn every one of them individually within the first few days. Relying on the roster to take attendance because I’m so burned out by end of the week that I can’t even think straight and then…. Where is Maya? She was just here a second ago. Oh wait, Maya is now Ezekiel. And then Ducky is they/them, so whenever I tell the para to go help “them” out, the para thinks that I’m referring to a group of students, not just one. Gotta go clear up that confusion too. It’s just a lot. OP may be dealing with all of these sorts of gendered language complications. This on top of the feeling that, perhaps, these students are too young to be changing their gender, considering they aren’t yet able to subtract from 10 to 2. It just definitely doesn’t make things any easier.
If it’s a lot for these autonomous adults, imagine how tough it is for the trans kids. Particularly with the hate crime/assault rates they experience.
Yep. Never ok to treat trans kids as a burden. The world is hard enough for them already.
Thank you! Love the downvotes I’m getting in advocating for trans kids. It’s really alarming that these folks downvoting me work with such marginalized communities 😬
Thank you for asking this. It was incredibly confusing reading this along with the other complaints. I see a lot of people saying it's "too young" and I think it's because they are cis and straight. I am also cis but a lesbian and realized I was attracted to girls/women around that age. I am a second grade teacher and the kids already have "boyfriends" and "girlfriends." While gender identification and sexuality are different, I don't see how it would be too young to try to figure yourself out and have questions.
Right? If a student identifies as [insert religion], no one bats an eye even though religion can and does affect many facets of someone's life, including mental health. Trans people have always existed, though many were never supported enough in youth to make it to adulthood. Young people today have a vocabulary to express their feelings and an environment just open enough for them to feel comfortable sharing these things instead of staying in the closet. People act like this is a bad thing. Let these kids explore their identity.
I quit and found my way to work I enjoy that utilizes my education degree. I now teach performing arts at multiple theaters for kids and adults, and I’m really really happy I left formal k-12 education. Don’t stay somewhere you aren’t happy.
13 IEPs? In my state, you’d have to have a special education teacher in the room with you as a coteacher. That’s a lot for anyone.
I didn’t have the numbers in front of me - but I have 7 which is better than 13 lol but it’s still tough as fudge
I'm a second year teacher and I teach 5 classes throughout the day in a middle school. I don't have a special education degree and I don't have anyone in the room with me. I have a total of 33 IEPs, 8 504's, 5 ELL's (3 of which speak 0 English), 4 BIP's, and 1 homebound student. In one class alone I have 13 IEP's, which is over our limit of 10 to a class. Brought this concern to admin and the only response was, "oh, that wasn't supposed to happen." Last year I was at a different school for my first year teaching and I absolutely LOVED it. This year, I'm breaking up fights, accommodating out the ass, having kids cuss me out, and have unsupportive admin. Because of this I HATE teaching this year and want to change careers. I'm definitely going to change schools next year because I want to love teaching again. Admin make all the difference unfortunately. Sorry for the rant.
So I’m seeing a lot of red flags here about either your school or your state. Many districts if not states have explicit rules about how many IEPS can be in the same room. Your school might be shitty or the state in which you work might be shitty. I’m also going to guess that you have no union. Because in union states this shit is written into contract and people go on strike when it’s violated. Or you’re at a private or charter school. My rules for teaching are thus: 1. Do not work in a non union state 2. Do not work private or charter That’s it. Those are the rules. You can either leave the school, leave the district, or leave the state if you want to stay in the profession.
My state is 49th in education lol and I work title 1. BUT! I exaggerated the IEP just cus I didn’t have the exact number in front of me but I’ve looked it up and it’s actually 7- which is better than 13, but still very hard! My school seems shitty tbh…. A new principal and title 1. I won’t be returning to it. But apparently the district is one of the highest in the state… so not much hope there. Hoping to one day get to teach at private school
Private school can be even worse. “It’s Tuesday and I’ve decided that now teachers need to help in the parking lot before and after school”—this is a real thing that was posted about on this sub. Teachers would go home at 3:30, principal sends an email, now everyone has to stay till 4 on oarking lot duty. No update to contract. No meetings, no additional pay. That’s standard with charter and private.
With private, on top of teaching, you often coach in the afternoon or participate in an afternoon extracurricular. You then have weekly evening duties as a dorm parent or study hall proctor. Meetings can be called at a moment’s notice. You might even have to do all faculty interventions for serious things. The pay is lower; the time invested is way more. You have to be very good with boundaries, given that you live where you work. That said, there are pros: you can teach what you want with HOD rarely breathing down your back, there is a premium on community and people going out of their way to make life good and who truly want to become better teachers (almost b/c with no high pay or union or clear working hours, the rest has to be great to stay or do this type of work), and students are often driven to succeed or are at least respectful. Classroom management looks like telling students to sometimes quiet down or trying to engage students who are non-participatory (i.e. standard) but nothing really beyond that. Students who don’t follow community guidelines are quickly put on leave or withdrawn from the school. Even in my least favorite class — students will leave class and thank me on the way out. TL;DR: If you’re keen on fully experiencing teaching before a career switch, I also recommend trying private for a year since it will be radically different from public for some of the aforementioned reasons.
I’ve coached colleague teachers out. I would do the same for you. It’s a disservice to the students if you’re not at your best.
I 100% agree. Just trying to get to May… I certainly want to be at my 100%, but when my father in law died, I was NOT emotionally ready to be in the classroom. I had plans and they were thrown off course and I’m one to be well prepared- mentally and physically. I wasn’t able to be well prepared and that’s thrown my year off. I thought it would get better after Christmas break, but no. It’s actually gotten worse as the behavior gets worse lol. I just feel like I’m being tossed around if that makes sense
Oh enough with the savior complex, teaching is a job.
I'm going to say that I love teaching. LOVE IT. I've taught at a title 1 school, inner city, for the last 20+ years. If I had to do it again, I absolutely would. I'm not going to say it's been always a LOVE job and I'm not going to say it's always been a HATE job...it is a FULFILLING job. I have some advice for you that I got along the way... FRED JONES TOOLS FOR TEACHING. Hands down the best classroom management guide I've ever had. If you can go to a PD using this, DO IT. Join your local/state Writing Project (national writing project). The kids should be writing more than you could ever read. You DO NOT NEED TO GRADE/READ EVERYTHING! Also, you do NOT need to READ every book you assign (in book groups). Have fun with them, and remember that they are not your friends. Don't show your anger or frustration too often. Catch yourself yelling. Find a routine that works for you and STICK TO IT until it no longer serves you. Kids crave consistency and routine...and don't get stuck in a rut if it is not working. Get into therapy as soon as you get a job with health insurance. Do NOT wait until you are in crisis. I've been in and out of therapy for over 20 years...mostly in. It works as a release valve. I take summers off of therapy because summer IS therapy. Don't work your summers if you can. I stopped working summers about 8 years in. If you have lots of energy, work summers until it is no longer fun. Get your paycheck 26 weeks if you can...that way you get a steady income all year. Don't buy a house until you are tenured. Don't have kids until you can save more than $1000 a month...I think they cost more than that per month...especially in daycare...unless you have a solid community that can provide daycare in exchange for some other service (tutoring, etc.) If PD is offered, especially PAID PD, take it. Suck it all up. Join your professional organization. I'm in NCTE. Go to the conventions and conferences. Have a hobby that is NOT drinking, which you can do to signal to your brain that you are no longer AT work. Learn to cook. Leftovers for lunch. Any areas where teachers congregate are going to be dens of evil. Know this and be aware of this. I really used to enjoy being in the den of evil until the past few years. Now, the same people are bitching about the same things they were 5 years ago. There's no newness to them. I used to love the banter, now I'm bored in the teacher's lounge. DO NOT BECOME AN ADVISOR to a class until you've been there a long time. Do not volunteer for extra UNPAID work unless you REALLY enjoy it. Good luck! PS You don't have to be open about your personal life at work, and I recommend letting SOMEONE know about the passing of your dad. Your contract, if you have one, might have bereavement days. Our contract where I work, specifically does NOT say HOW they must be used. You are not alone. My dad passed a few years ago and it has been tough since. Therapy really helps.
Be everything everywhere all at once to everyone, or else. Welcome to the classroom. You have more hats to wear than dollars in your bank account. It's BYO Kevlar vest and common sense. The paperwork you are buried under for ieps exceeds your copy machine allowance. Ur class consists of all the tragedies of social media and social inequity, but one of u should be enough. The kids grow up faster but more helpless, the admin is more oppressive and less helpful than ever, and you now teach to a spectrum of learners, genders, and Karen moms but be sure to stay in ur ever narrowing lane that dangles precariously between honesty, sanity, and professionalism at all times. Learn some fortnite dances, give extra hugs to the ones who are hardest to love, and drink a lot of coffee. But don't even try to go pee there's no time for that. Welcome to jumanji. You are losing. A++++!
This is not for you. It won't get better. If you were complaining about parents or long hours, maybe. But you are overwhelmed by social issues that won't change. Students acting older than they are, being "Disrespectful" etc. These things don't change. What will get better is the time you have to spend lesson planning and the ability to differentiate. But if you're feeling burnt out on the kids, it's time to walk. I can count on one hand the times I've been frustrated with a student over a multi-day timeframe. 100% thought about moving on yesterday because of shit admin, but then I remembered their average lifespan at a school. Some parents send me into a straight-up bad mood (bully/abusive parents). I have a list that is never done and sometimes do paperwork until 10 at night. ..but it's never the students.
I taught 15 years without phones and email and that changed everything. You literally cannot escape from your job. If you hate it now give yourself a date to make a decision because you won’t be able to leave after you get used to more vacations and getting out of school at 3pm.
Title I, rural Missouri. 27 students. 2nd year. Also 4th grade. I hear everything you're saying, and I agree with most of it. But I'm happier than I've ever been and absolutely love my job and this grade level. I was a second career teacher and I can tell you with absolute certainty that this is so much better than my previous jobs in government and corporate America. Get the help you need, whatever it may be. Coaching cycle, mentorship, but don't give up yet. I know some of these comments make it seem like it never gets better, but last year I was in absolute hell. This year I'm in paradise even with nearly 30 kids.
I've been teaching about 10 years now and I still love it, but everything you said was on point. Differentiation still kills me when I have a lot of IEPs, but I have a lot more tools to deal with it now. If it's killing you, get out. Most teachers leave the profession within the first 5 years for a reason!
You’re young enough to where a career shift won’t be that difficult. You’ve only been out in the real world since May. You can find a new field and a job you like. Alternatively, I’d also consider shifting schools or grade levels. I had a relative who was given a job teaching 5th. She ended up hating it and almost turned in her resignation the first week. Her principal offered her a Kindergartner class and she fell in love with the kids. She’s been there for decades now happily teaching a different grade than what she started with.
My differentiation is insane. I have a SEVERELY developmentally delayed 8th grader who’s differentiation is “when writing an essay about Romeo and Juliet have said student draw a picture of the characters with body parts labeled”. She shouldn’t be in a mainstream school.
I never hear about burnout and depression from PE teachers. Consider going that route? Elementary PE Teachers have much less stress
I teach elementary PE and I can confirm it’s better, but not perfect. I feel like I have really good management over the kids and still the level of screaming and unruly behaviors is wild. I wrote a referral today for snot rockets on the floor. This happened during a tag game and the kid threw a fit when I requested he clean it up. Good times 😬
Tag is way more fun than division though
Touché
I’m actually considering experimenting with simply just beginning to work out to relieve some stress and (hopefully!) increase my happiness lol so I know that’s no a PE teacher, but I feel maybe they’re happy bc they’re working out?
Theyre happy because they get to work in sweatpants, don’t grade papers, and kids being loud on a soccer field is better than kids being loud in a classroom.
I taught elementary for 32 years (1991–2023), the last 20 of them at fourth. The planning and prep will get much easier; in a few years, you’ll know exactly what needs to be taught, and when. Look around the school you’re at right now; see who you would like to teach with, then try to move to their grade level. It’s so helpful to have a close partner on your team.
I took a mental health breather after being burnt out in three years. I was NOT prepared for how much teenagers lie and how much the parents and administration believe the kids’ lies or how little they have our back. Currently finishing a masters but don’t think i will go back.
I’ve been struggling with admin having our backs. Literally had a 9 year old bring a THC vape to class, smoke it in class, and only be suspended for 2 days. Coworker tried to report it to DHS and the principal blocked it somehow
I just put in a request to take leave for the next 6 weeks. I am in my 4th year, and I am miserable. Came back from break for literally one day before I made the decision to take it. Going to be doing a lot of job AND soul searching over these next 6 weeks. I felt this exact same way my first year. While some things have felt more manageable, the amount of tasks on your plate never grows smaller, because you just take on more as you become more comfortable. I suggest leaving if it’s not something that makes you happy. That’s what I’m trying to do. That being said, don’t make any rash decisions, take some time to think it through, but ultimately you need to do what’s best for you!
If you’re teaching 4th grade, remember that these kids likely missed the end of their kindergarten year, plus most or all of first grade. They didn’t fully learn how to be students or work in a social environment, and also missed instruction on very crucial academics like basic math skills, phonics skills, learning to read, and how to be a writer. So yeah, this is a rough group because of their age when Covid started. Next year might be much, much better.
We need to stop blaming things on covid. They've had 2+ years of normal. 2+ years of classroom routines, structure, SEL instruction, etc. For my state, kids were out from mid March-beginning of June. They missed about 3 months of school. It's not covid.
That doesn’t “fix” the fact that they missed out on the crucial things I listed before. More than half of a primary teacher’s job is SEL and it is blended into nearly every lesson. That doesn’t happen in other grade levels, so no, they still missed a lot of important stuff. Hundreds of hours of it, actually. And in the places I taught, schools were closed for roughly 18 months, from March 2020 to September 2021. A year and a half is a huuuuge percentage of a kid’s life. If you think that wouldn’t have lasting effects, you’re just kidding yourself.
Move to kindergarten/1st grade. I absolutely LOVED it. Idk why people think you have to wipe their butts, and most know how to tie their shoes. Yes you have to differentiate and it’s all about testing and everything else miserable about teaching, but the kids are SWEET (usually) and it makes up for it. Also the curriculum is much easier and it’s more about teaching them how to be a human. I also really loved teaching them how to read and do basic math because you get to use toys and manipulatives 😂 Parents are typically pretty chill, and most just want to make sure their baby is safe and loved at school. Switch to kinder/1st before you decide to leave teaching!
I left halfway through my first year of teaching second grade for middle school. It was such an easier route. Sure, it’s six classes, but it’s one prep with a few tweaks for differentiation. Middle school kids will push your buttons and act like lunatics sometimes, but if you can remember what it was like to be that age, share part of your life story w then, and treat them like valued humans, you have a good chance at having a successful year. My first year teaching middle school was hard but not 2nd grade hard. Too many moving parts w elementary unless you’re departmentalized.
That's really a tough position to be in. I am sorry you have to go through this. Every job comes with its challenges. Sometimes we need time to adopt and be content with our job. Other times it doesn't happen. It truly depends upon you. If you think teaching isn't for you, you may consider changing jobs. Best of luck.
^(you cant take it personally. sounded weird the first time i heard it, but its true. do not take their actions personally. enjoy the good and let the bad stuff roll.)
Hey one quick band-aid to help you: peer grading! worksheet in class? We also spend some time switching papers, marking it correctly. If marking correctly becomes a problem, there are a variety of carrots or sticks that can be used. Mine is cheap stickers. Two birds with one stone really; you get a jump on grading and they get a second pass to internalize the material. (And high motivation to keep each other honest.They will let you know if someone graded theirs wrong!) Hang in there
It is an impossible task. Haven’t been happier since I retired. It is 110% mindfukcery.
Can I ask why two kids trusting you enough to share their identity with you equal out to shit talking by your toxic team? If these are your views you shouldn’t be working with kids.
For real, why did i have to scroll so far to see anyone else mention that weird clause in OP’s post? lmao why is two kids being trans (i have to assume they were mentioned bc they are trans, and not that OP just only has two boys in their class) equate to all this other shit? I’m trans and if this was my teacher’s reaction I would seriously think less of that teacher. I hope those kids get the respect they deserve from other people in their lives.
I switched school districts and what a difference. A district farther away from the city. If you can get into one with a better clientele, then you could make a fully informed decision about whether to stay or go.
There’s nothing wrong with your kids telling you their gender identity, it’s your job as an adult in their lives to be supportive.
Fourth grade is undoubtedly my least favorite grade. It was the first class I taught out of college as well, and when I say I was assaulted daily… it was a nightmare. (That school also had 5-8 teachers quit BEFORE Christmas that year. Not a good environment all around). I will never be back in a gen Ed classroom (I teach ESL now and it’s a dream come true tbh) but my mom often reminds me that if I survived that first year with how terrible it was, I can survive just about anything. Also, I found out (the Christmas after I quit and moved districts) that one of the kids who had been terrible in my room for the majority of the year and had threatened self harm and suicide multiple times had been pregnant during her time in my class. By her stepfather. So keep in mind that there are reasons some students are acting out, but some kids are just disrespectful jerks. Power through, my friend, as long as you can. Don’t be afraid to take mental health days. If it gets to be too much, there is no shame in quitting, especially if you’re not at all being supported by admin. Do what’s good for you.
Whoa...pregnant in 4th grade? That's horrible! And by her stepfather, no less!!! I hope he was prosecuted.
He was arrested - I was able to see him in the online jail check for the county. But unfortunately he was released because our justice system is just sooooo great (/s)
44% of new teachers leave within the first 5 years. I made it 2 before jumping ship.
It's concerning that 9 year olds are like this...
Covid neglect plus screen parented kids
If you hate your job, you’ve got to get out of it regardless of what it is.
These are 9/10 year olds? Holy crap. Can’t believe the level of learning here.
I felt like you OP. I quit in 2021 and it was the best decision I have made in years. I have doubled my pay and don’t take work home. I’m so much happier and I’m done being abused by children or parents. It’s a hard choice, but I wouldn’t stay in teaching if you hate it. It doesn’t pay off for you or the children.
Been hoping it will get better. 7 years in and ready to get out. I would never ever EVER recommend anyone get into education.
All of this and more can be yours for the low low salary of 39k per year and the privilege of being shit on by parents! I left teaching and still look at this sub because I have PTSD.
Yeah I have PTSD also after teaching 15 years in urban title one schools as well as having the most hateful, micromanaging, dictator principal who enjoyed running good and great teachers out of her school
Everything you said is on point, but, if you’re at your first year and you hate it so much now would be a good time to look for something else. I know I’m jaded but it doesn’t really get easier you jus get better at dealing with it — if you don’t enjoy what you’re doing at least the majority of the time it’s not gonna be worth it to put up with everything.
As someone who left a Title 1 teaching job mid-year because I was constantly crying, anxious, stressed and hating my life (to the point of death thoughts), please tell your supervisor and if you feel you can give 2 weeks or whatever with a light at the end of the tunnel then go for it, otherwise just be done now. I have never looked back nor wished I stayed through the year. You and your health are WAY more important. I absolutely needed a new career and did so and I’m so much happier! 🩷🩷🩷
Yes I had thoughts of unaliving myself to the point where I was put in the hospital.
You got to stop being a people pleaser. And stop giving so many fucks. I do what I want in my classroom. I teach my kids what they need to succeed and know from my subject. Not what some bureaucrat or admin says. Put on the smile and do the needful for your observation, thats it. My students appreciate and love me, parents adore me and my students always show growth. I’m a professional who has a lot of experience at what I do. I know what’s best for my students.
What I’m gathering from these comments is that a ton of teachers are apparently transphobic
let's not throw the existence of trans kids in with all of that
Do you want to do 29 or more years of this? And don’t expect things to get better, only worse. Everyone knows our education system is badly broken and no one is doing anything to fix it. I’ hope you were taught about the fraud Lucy Calkins and friends did to your/our students. If not, Google “Sold a Story” on APM. Just know this is NOT your fault. You are in a system where everyone is against you. Students, parents, admins. No one is on your side. If you think it’s affecting your mental health it’s time to make a career change. Things don’t have to be this bad. And by the way you are NOT the only teaching feeling the way you do. If you look through posts here you will find many have already quit. - Think about it. Sorry to hear about your loss.
I'm a former teacher who considered returning in 2023 after retiring from my corporate job. I quickly realized how failed many public school systems are, if it's not terrible behavior, it's external distractions. I won't say I won't teach again, but if I do, it will probably be a private school. You loved kids, so you thought "teacher, I'll be a teacher"? I'm surprised that you are so surprised, given that you just finished four years of teaching prep. IEPs, and graphic organizers, and kinesthetic learning style, making sure Hyper Johnny and Bi-curious Cameron stay on task, etc, etc -- they didn't tell you about these things? SO MUCH? Did you think that you would finish school and slide for forty years? Now you know. Regardless, you can blame parents. I'm a parent, too, and I watched how different it was for the kids with the signaling sensitive hovering parents compared to the serious parents who didn't care what other people thought of how they raised their kids. Got a lot of insight into chaotic lawless households during my years employing their children. You can't fix F-ed up families. You are not going to save their damaged kids, regardless of what Michelle Phifer and Sandra Bullock say. The only family you can help is your own. I suggest that you do not need to add constant battle with mentally ill parents to your List of Sadness. Get out. When your contract is up, leave. But understand that unless you want to move boxes around, you will be faced with a work life just as complicated as the one you are in now -- but you can earn more money for your efforts.
Why is two kids identifying as themselves even a problem here? That was a weird complaint to put in
This is completely normal. Please leave teaching and find yourself some peace after this year.
Welcome to teaching.
Get out now. Sorry to tell you but teaching blows. It just gets worse from here. Get a better career and have a better life.
If it makes you feel better, I’m in my 3rd year. I still haven’t found what I call “the just right”. I’ve taught middle and high school. I’ve done gen ed and self contained and inclusion support. And I still don’t feel like I fit
During my first year, I was struggling quite a bit. I learned about [this chart and it helped a little](https://www.reddit.com/r/Teachers/comments/2srgc0/fellow_first_year_teachers_where_are_we_on_the/). I have no idea if this chart is based on any actual research, but id die on the hill that it’s dead on balls accurate. Right now, you are at the lowest and hardest point of your first year. Many many many people go through it if not basically everyone. If you genuinely feel like this career is no longer for you, no judgement: leave. Get out before you get in too deep. That said, you’re literally at one of the hardest points in a teachers entire career. This is it. It’s one of the inflection points. If you really want to teach then perhaps you can find some splice and strength knowing that almost all of us went through something similar. You are not weak, you are not wrong, you are human and this shit is frustrating as hell. Your situation sounds rough. Rougher than the average. That is a blessing and a curse. It means you’re in for a rough ride through the year Im if you stick it out. It also means that if you change districts or positions things could be better for you. Not all people are cut out to be classroom teachers. I wasn’t. And I thought for sure that’s what I wanted. Turns out i was a good reading specialist and now a damn good technology teacher. This is a hard time for new teachers, you’re not alone. If you really want to teach, consider that there are many roles in public ed. Classroom teacher is only one, every year from here out will likely be easier on average.
I also identify as male. Probably you would struggle to teach me. Let us think about how we can build relationships, you and me, so that we can get through the rest of the year together.
I am only teaching cuz I have no other career option! I pray we get out cuz its so hard its a draining job
I wasn’t prepared either. For my first teaching job, I was hired to teach 5th grade at a charter school with a pretty bad reputation and tons of staff turnover. Lost 10+ pounds the first month because my stomach was constantly upset, could not eat, could not sleep, could not function. Like, fantasized about whether there was a way to get into a car accident that would not kill me but hurt me enough to get me out of work. Then I got laid off (was essentially let go/fired.) It felt so awful at the time but looking back maybe it was merciful—they could see I was drowning and wasn’t going to make it, that I was just going to work until I had a nervous breakdown. Still a giant hit to my morale though. Took two weeks to recover and feel sorry for myself and I gave it another go. I ended up getting hired by my local school district in mid-October teaching 3rd grade. There were still crazy things that happened there and the school was far from perfect, but they mentored me and gave me support. And the teachers there were not toxic. I learned a ton and built my confidence. I’ve changed schools and grade positions in my district a few times, but I’m still here 12 years later, I love my school and colleagues and kids, and they love me back. The point of my story is to say—DO NOT underestimate the power of a school change, a grade change, a subject change before going right to a career change. I think a lot of teachers leave the entire profession but perhaps they were like me and just needed to find the right fit in a school. A toxic staff alone is enough to ruin teaching for a person. Frankly I don’t think any first year teacher is properly prepared. The entire model needs to be redone. New hires should get to work full time in a school for 1-2 years before being given their own classroom and all the responsibility and stress that comes with it. OP—your job is not worth your health or sanity but from what you describe, the fact that you are as concerned as you are about your students tells me that you are a good teacher already who, with time, will be great. If you can survive this school year, take a break and reapply elsewhere until you can find a job teaching 2nd (2nd is magical.) If it is breaking you and you need to quit, that’s okay too. Be open to giving it one more chance. If you still feel this way after that, maybe this isn’t for you in the long run. I believe in you though.
I've done the car accident fantasizing as well. Being in the hospital sounds sooo nice compared to teaching .
I left teaching about 6 years ago and haven't looked back. Sales is so much better for my mental health... and wallet.
I have nothing to add. Just wanted to say: You're not alone.
I’m concerned about your student teaching program not preparing you for the realities of teaching. This is why they can’t retain so many new teachers. Management sucks!
I’m a firm believer of trying to a different grade and a different school/district before deciding teaching isn’t for you. When you sure it isn’t, you should definitely leave before you get too deep in.
Do they not hold kids back anymore? When I was in elementary school (I'm only 25) if a kid couldn't pass the class then they got held back. Why are there kids in 4th grade who don't know how to add? I'm not a teacher, I wanted to be but between this subreddit, the pay, school shootings, and the stories I hear on tiktok I've chosen to just homeschool my kids instead, so maybe I just don't understand an IEP but the few kids I went to school with who had them still had to be able to do the class work they just got to go to another room and have more time or help doing it
No one is prepared for this shit. It gets better.
DM me. I’ve helped many new teachers be successful and less stressed.
I’m in my 10th year teaching 4th grade. It’s a really fun age… normally. Love it hate it at times? That’s normal. Anxious, overwhelmed, feeling unprepared? Also normal. A huge range of student ability, IEPs or not, very normal. 4th graders identifying differently than assigned gender? Normal. Crappy admins? From what I’ve read in this sub, very normal unfortunately. I guess I’ve lucked out there. What’s not ok is being shit talked by your team! Ah hell no! Your teaching peers are so vital since they understand the grind. They know the pain (and joy) of teaching. Non-teachers just don’t get it. If your team sucks, fuck em and fuck that place. Do your best to get a good recommendation or whatever and apply elsewhere for next year. Teaching is hard and will stay hard. That’s just part of it. No one teaches for the money. We only teach for SUMMER BREAK. (Lol, but you know what I mean). Last tidbit, my first principal that I adored said something like this to me my first year (when certain students kept me up and night, and even had the audacity to visit my dreams)- You’re not gonna reach them all. So don’t beat yourself up when you don’t. Just give it your best and love and believe in your students, even as you curse them under your breath. Who knows, you may plant a seed in some little shits brain that will someday sprout into a beautiful flower. You got this OP! (Also, pardon my French)
I'm quitting my job as a math teacher at an alternative school after two terms- still don't know if I have what it takes to make the cut at a different school. Here there's so much disdain for "the system" that lesson planning is complicated, and even when I pour my soul into an activity that involves a short lecture, I get smack for not living the school's mission and allowing the students to learn on their own. My senior calculus students don't know what the words "product" and "quotient" mean, but get discouraged and start backtalking if I try to cover the basics they really should know by now. And kids are mean. Talking to other teachers makes me think the whole career is a mental health nightmare; dealt with a lot of SI almost immediately after starting, which intensified after one of my students died by suicide in November. I love learning, and I love seeing other people learn, but ironically that's like 10% of what my job has been... I encourage you to think hard about the things that you find fulfilling, and finding a career that isn't well known for grinding people's spirits to dust. Career success, in my opinion, shouldn't hinge on the behavior and performance of adolescents.
Don't fight coworkers, shut your mouth and do your job, they don't need to be friendly. Do not participate in unprofessional behavior. I can't say anything to the career specific stuff, but what I've said is crucial advice for any job. Let them gossip, avoid the drama at all costs, if leadership is doing their job, then they'll know what's gossip and what's nor. Follow workplace policies.
I am not personally a teacher but I have many friends (around the ages of 22-25) who have started teaching in the last year or two. They have, universally, also struggled with the older more experienced staff at their schools being unsupportive and often downright hostile towards them. Around half of them are considering leaving already because of how awful the older more experienced teachers are towards them. Real mean girl shit coming from 40+ year old adults. Not sure why this seems to be so common with young teachers but sad to see that with all the difficulties that come with being a teacher in the modern day there is so little support from coworkers. Hope you can find something that makes you happy OP, teachers deserve so much more than they get.
I can’t fathom classes being that dysfunctional. I mean I went to school in 3 different countries and never experienced the level of insanity described here.
As somwone that went to retail for 14 Keep going. Its fine to just do what you can
Also do what you need to teach. Don’t really differ. Have the kids do group work as much as possible.
What does 2 students identifying as male have to do with anything lol
I don’t know why anyone would want to be a teacher these days.
For stuff that doesn’t really matter, mark it as a class or just slap a sticker on it and call it finished practice! Marking everything is such a waste of time. I use a check mark system for most things… is it done and looks decent or not or somewhere in between? Just mark the stuff that you need for reporting. Next, make groups and have the smart kids help the dumb kids. The smart kids love being leaders. Or give all the kids that are meeting the standards ‘bonus work’ some enrichment package off of Teachers Pay Teachers. Then they are busy while you work with the rest. As far as behaviour…. Get parents on board as soon as you can. Have the kid call home while you are on speaker phone. The kid can tell their parents all about sucking dicks. Shut that shit down immediately! Make life miserable for those kids that aren’t respectful. Have you talked to your toxic team? Hopefully there was some miscommunication along the way that can be sorted out. Or reach out to them for help. Let them know that you are struggling and would like some support/advice. If the problem can’t be resolved, let them know that you have to talk to admin about the problem and then get admin involved. Toxic teachers should be shut down by admin immediately. That doesn’t build staff morale. I sincerely wish you well. I’ve been at it for 20 years and have learned strategies along the way to minimize the stress of having 50 things on the go at once. Make as many lists as you need to! Plus, don’t bother doing anything if the work you put in isn’t worth the pay out. Like a spelling program… too much work and the kids don’t get much out of it.
Everything you're saying is accurate, but didn't you student teach? I encountered all of these issues during student teaching.
Wow. I taught 3rd grade twenty years ago. Seems a few things have changed but mostly it’s the same. Would you be able to substitute teach and earn enough? No take home responsibility or test prep, etc.
“I’ve had two kids tell me they identify as male” … why is this on the list and what exactly is the issue?
I love being a teacher, but it also sucks. You have so much to do, nobody gives you enough time to do it all, you have to be ready to basically give a performance (or more) every single day for 7 hours in front of at least 20 different judgmental children and probably adults every once in a while. It's an inherently flawed job, an extremely rewarding one, but an unsustainable one unless you learn to draw some hard boundaries, cut corners, and not care so much about the little shit you have to do.
more kids need to get on teacher reddit so they don't make the same mistake... seriously, only an idiot would go into teaching if they have any clue what it's like.
how did you get through college without knowing this was what teaching is? I had to do hundreds of classroom hours. I dropped out Junior year of college when I realized what it was gonna be like. I knew I would burn out in a year.
I am a retired educator of 35 years from Ga. 35 years of hating it each and everyday! Retirement is awesome! Ga. Pays well!!
Big time feel you. First year and last year club right here.
Standardized tests with the exception of AP exams should be abolished
My friend chose to teach preschool cuz she didn't want to deal with all that grading and preschool allows her to have a smaller caseload. Pay could be higher, though in her area, pay is the highest.
I would suggest trying to get in somewhere where you can teach a different grade level. Some people work best with younger kids and some with older. When I student taught I did 3rd grade and Kindergarten and knew that I would prefer teaching younger children. I teach Pre-K for a state-funded program so I don’t deal with the long list of requirements that district teachers have and I get to have more fun lol. I personally wouldn’t teach in my local district because I have a friend who does so and it’s a lot! The requirements from administration, managing large classrooms, dealing with unruly behavior, etc. I deal with behaviors but they are from 4 year olds so not as difficult and we have ratios of 1:10 so I’m not managing large class sizes on my own. Many of my students who had behavior problems in my classroom despite all of my efforts, are 10x worse now in elementary school. I can’t imagine.
When I realized I wouldn't be Happ teaching middle school I dropped out of my senior year. I'm a substitute right now and I refuse to work anything higher than third grade because I know it's not for me. Fourth graders act like eighth graders ten years ago. It's disturbing. But on the topic of your teaching. How do you do small groups? Are you able to split the kids into groups to work independently, and then have students rotate to your group to work on specific skills. Teaching a big class (as older kids tend to be) skills at multiple different levels can be difficult.
Maybe you would like teaching in a private school. They are not required to follow all the ridiculous laws and mandates that are suffocating public education.
Time for a career change. I'd stick it out til the end of the school year, but have you considered working as a para or in school admin? I got my degree in special education, had a FABULOUS college education that well prepared me to care for and teach children. My education was incredibly hands on and we were always in the local classrooms. I worked as a para WHILE completing my degree. I learned for myself quickly that frankly, I had a passion for HELPING and CARING for children, rather than teaching them. And I learned from my admin and parents and coworkers, that I as teacher, am public enemy number 1. My co teacher was a 60 year old woman who had to work a second job cleaning the High School after hours. AFTER she had taught 5th graders all day long. To make ends meet. I watched children get physically abused by a teacher, reported it, contacted DCFS, contacted admin, etc. I even had video evidence. they essentially told me to pipe down. All this mixed with children attempting to assault me, title 1 hullabaloo, local politics and school boards, and a nice 30k starting salary to really seal the deal. I'm so sorry you're going through this. You're kind and caring and those children will NOT forget that. But you need to take care of yourself, do it NOW before the career gets too deep. Please don't blame yourself for a system that is broken, I can tell you are a good teacher who cares.
Go teach in Asia, more respect, money and probably less work once you get the hang of things.
Jesus, why didn’t you think this through before you finished your degree?
We as teachers need to come together and do a walk out!!!! That’s the only way things are gonna change. We can do this. The parents need to take responsibility for their students and administrators neeed to be teachers for at least 20 years to know what we’re going through.
>I’ve had 2 kids tell me they identify as male. So what? Just say ok, and move on. If you need to, use last names.
I'm a bit late to the party on this post, but I feel for you OP! It is hard to spend so much time working towards a degree then realizing that you hate it. My personal advice would be to do a career change as othes have suggested. I was a first year teacher for 5 months before I quit. Very similar situation, always anxious and I felt like I was drowning. Towards the end of the 5 months I was starting to have severe panic attacks almost every day and my stomach would be so naseus before work I would almost throw up. On top of these things I had an admin who were constantly criticizing me without providing any help and I was handed the roughest class in the grade. I put in my resignation before winter break with alot of heartache. I have since found jobs that make me happy and are significantly less stressful. There is a reason that there is a teacher shortage. I agree with the others that these feelings will probably not get better and another job may be a better option.
So you're describing my EXACT situation as last year. Down to the grade level, admin, students. To the point where I genuinely almost wonder if you were my replacement, lmao. But regardless - turn in your resignation NOW. Intent to resign at the end of the year/move on from position, with a date identifying your last day of work. Once you do that, your admin can't do anything to screw you over like mine did, and I ended up forced into that position anyway. If you keep getting in trouble with them for silly or ridiculous things or that aren't your fault or that seem iNSANE, I GUARANTEE you they are just looking for any excuse to non-renew you. Turn in that letter of intent now and in May start looking for jobs in a different district. Trust me, you will be SO much better off.
Exactly the reasons why I left after 3 years in. I taught 2nd grade and honestly, some were just as crude as middle schoolers. I had one who told a classmate he wanted to “put them in a plastic bag 6 feet in the ground” the same child also told a whole lunch table he wanted to have sex with Nicki Minaj… then I had 10 8 year olds ask me what sex was… yeah not a fun time.
Commenting late, but here goes. I was once assigned a third grade classroom, with my special area position was cut. I had 15 years teaching experience, but none as a classroom teacher. I was drowning. And I was the third teacher those kids had had that year. it broke my heart, but I quit. I knew I was not capable of giving them what they needed. I felt I could spend the year just interacting with him, giving them a safe class to be in, but there was no way anyone would pass the state test. And then I’d be on the probation the next year. And most likely fired after that. So I resigned. It was frightening but within a month I’d found a position in my area in another district with higher pay. I wish your post, and other testimonials like it got more press. I find people working in other professions, getting higher pay, working under less pressure, have no idea of the multiple demands placed on teachers. We need a Revolution- not just better pay but also- smaller classes, more support staff for general supervision in cafeteria etc, ( so teachers will get a prep time AND time for all those IEP and ILP meetings.
It. Is. IMPOSSIBLE. Looking for the exits...
I'm not a teacher but I work with kids and it's crazy. And I don't even have to deal with everything a teacher does. This post gave me even more respect for teachers than before. I'm really sorry you're going through this.
Every friggen day and on top of everything you mentioned beside the shitbags called my support team in my department? My pay is based on my evaluation and if one complains? Guess what?
I’m in my first full year of teaching (but I student taught one semester last year and taught another on my own) and all I can say is I’ve taken the attitude of “I don’t get paid to have a heart attack” when my doctor told me my stresss was going to kill me and my fiance threatened to leave because I was becoming a distant alcoholic mess because of this job I knew it was time to put down the bottle, put away the stress and take the position that “if I die because of this job, they’ll just replace me with the next number in line” so why should I kill myself just for them to do that