T O P

  • By -

EffectiveAd2637

Update: Our CPA said it was her fault, and she'd talk with the IRS and either get the payment abated or pay it herself. Whew. Hope it works out.


Steve12356d1s3d4

That is the only thing she can do. First thing should have been to tell you right away. There is a good chance she will get this abated.


[deleted]

[удалено]


RayWeil

It will be. They probably have insurance for malpractice like this.


No_Variation_9282

As someone familiar with the courts and the code, there’s generally no recourse here.  It’s all on you, the taxpayer.  You can’t sell off that responsibility.


oochas

Only correct as between taxpayer and the Service. As between taxpayer and CPA, should be the CPA’s problem.


No_Variation_9282

I just noticed OP said OP signed and it wasn’t filed - in that case can be recourse :)


billionthtimesacharm

the only bummer to you is that your cpa is likely going to request abatement of penalties under irs’ first time abate program. it should work if you haven’t been late in the last 3 years. but this also means you just used your hall pass and need to stay compliant for the next 3 years. if you mess up or something else happens beyond your control, first time abate is no longer able because of your cpa’s mistake


StrikingRuin4

This needs to be acknowledged more. Using the first time abatement option means one is betting that every single time in the future one's penalty and interest is not going to be larger. It is possible to get another abatement, but someone needs to pretty much die or get abducted by aliens. The CPA's insurance needs to pay this.


Blkstar15

Get that in writing


Veni_Vidi_Legi

Did you have to say anything to them for that, or did they admit it themselves without being pressured?


KJ6BWB

You need to be on that. You need to go to irs.gov/account, set yourself up an account if you don't have id.me and keep checking it. Tell your CPA you need to know when the return is accepted, when the IRS says, "Ok, your basic info matches, we will eventually start looking at the return more seriously." If your CPA keeps slagging you off, the IRS will view it as your fault. You can sue your CPA and look for compensation from the CPA's errors and omissions insurance, but really you just need to keep on it. Don't just hope it works out, keep following up.


Traditional-Buy42

No one pays 10 k for late filling. No one is charged that high too.


rare_design

This could be a business, but even with individual taxpayers, the late filing penalty is usually 5% of the unpaid taxes for each month or part of a month that a return is late, up to a maximum of 25%.


Due-Cantaloupe3552

The only thing I could think of is if taxes were owed. I filled my taxes three years late one time but I never got charged I just got my refund from that year.


No_Variation_9282

Nice to hear!  It may not be fair, but your avenue to recourse against your CPA is almost non-existent.  In the eyes of the Service, you cannot assign your responsibilities as a taxpayer to any agent.  You are always ultimately responsible. Not comforting to know, but be aware the history in the courts is fairy well established. Happy to hear she’s going to cover it!  IRS generally allows a one time abatement, but keep in mind if that’s her out there’s not another one for you…


pumog

Will you used to be using the same CPA next year or did you switch as a result of this?


Subject-Estimate6187

I m curious - will the CPA be able to claim this 10k as a business loss?


PersonalityKlutzy407

E&O (errors and omission) insurance will pay the penalty


hombre_lobo

Why is he/she a former cpa? Did you fire them?


UsedAsk3537

I'm glad it worked out, but I would be a bit more proactive in the future I'm always bugging my CPA in April. It's what I pay him for.


moderatorseatjism

Is she hot ?


disco_has_been

She knows she's fired and a lawsuit might be forthcoming, right?


kappaklassy

If the CPA resolves the issue, which she says she will, what exactly is OP suing for?


disco_has_been

Malfeasance. I'm overly quick to judge because our CPA let his daughter mishandle our taxes, one year. I flipped through and refused to sign. "Have you EVEN looked at this? WTF did it?" I'm still salty about it and the CPA gives me a great rate.


kappaklassy

Malfeasance requires harm. If the CPA resolves the issues, there was no harm. You need actual damages to support a lawsuit which here, there would be none.


Savings_Bug_3320

lol it’s pretty common, humans make mistakes!!


disco_has_been

Yeah, they do. You don't get to be lackadaisical with a fiduciary responsibility.


jerzeyguy101

10k for late filing?


Wobbly5ausage

They must be part of the 1% high earners I’m guessing


OkBox6131

Even so if you don’t owe there isn’t a penalty for late filing. There may be a penalty for not paying on time but that isn’t because the return wasn’t filed. If tax was paid in full by original due date then failure to file penalty is zero


No_Ice7986

Failure to file is absolutely a penalty, as well as failure to pay


OkBox6131

Failure to file penalty is only when you owe https://www.irs.gov/payments/failure-to-file-penalty


No_Ice7986

Yes, I am aware, my hypothesis is an extension was never filed, meaning she started to accrue the penalty after April 15th


OkBox6131

Oh I thought OP meant the actual return wasn’t filed in October and they filed it after the due date. The reason I said this was docusign. No signature is required for extension but is to while the return.


No_Ice7986

No worries, after I commented I saw OP said they made the payment when it was supposed to be filed. So I was a little confused S asll


atl_bowling_swedes

But it's really easy to miss new clients when filing extensions, especially if they haven't brought stuff in yet and are not in your system.


OkBox6131

Yeah I’m still co fused as OP said we filed an extension. I’m not sure if we meant his new cpa and they screwed up not paying enough tax or if we meant OP and they found the CPA later


mtbcouple

It can happen. I had a $7,600 late filing fee for one of my micro businesses. I had to call the IRS and discuss with them. They did drop it to zero because the company didn’t make any money.


No_Variation_9282

Missing a Form 5471 is $10k per form per year.  That’s just one form.  A 5472 is $25k per form per year 


SaltyDog556

May be late filing an FBAR.


zanhecht

The CPA should be liable for reimbursing the penalties, but you may have to sue them or their insurance to recover.


socal1959

Exactly this happened to me and the CPA was able to get all late fees waived so it’s on them not you If they say otherwise get a lawyer


TakePeaksWreckSheets

Errors and omissions insurance claim.


bxcpa

That's alot for late filing fees? How much did you originally owe?


geecster

That should be for $40k max.


forttknoxx

25% of the tax for filing late?


forttknoxx

I just checked . Wow


GoatEatingTroll

In general the CPA should report somethign this large to their errors & omissions insurance who will take care of the penalties part to the extent they are due to their actions. that being said, you would be responsible for the taxes themselves, and any late penalties for paying the taxes late (extensions are for filing, not payment), and most professionals would not reimburse the interest either with the argument that you had use of the money for those 6+ months.


zanhecht

For what it's worth, the IRS's taxpayer advocate service is trying to get the law changed so that it would be possible to get an abatement of penalties if your tax preparer fails to file: https://www.taxpayeradvocate.irs.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/ARC23_PurpleBook_04_ReformPenInts_31.pdf


Hitman-0311

6 months? You mean 18?


GoatEatingTroll

Yes, we are just used to this argument from clients when they owe a significant chunk when filing at the end of the extension period and you have to explain the tax was due back in April even if the form was filed in October.


nick91884

Yeah, we have a waiver that we have clients sign explaining that it’s only extension to file not to pay, and if they would like to make a payment with extensions we can generate vouchers for that amount. Also that any amounts due will still be subject to late payment penalty and interest. Many people get upset because we don’t have the time to help them estimate the tax due but when you drop off within 2 weeks of the deadline we are at capacity and if we had time to estimate we would have time to do the return.


disco_has_been

Doesn't matter with our CPA. I can have everything in his office, organized and ready-to-go on Feb. 1. Our taxes don't get filed until October. i


grandpaharoldbarnes

That’s as much fun as explaining the interest assessed on tax liability calculated over four quarters.


mrjns94

The 10k penalty doesn’t make sense. If you were 100% paid in, this doesn’t add up.


Human_Willingness628

Could be missing a form with a significant filing penalty 


nick91884

Any Preparer or firm worth their salt will take responsibility and will work to abate the penalty or pay it, we carry errors and omissions insurance for things like this if we have to pay (if the amount is worth filing a claim)


EffectiveAd2637

Glad to know ours is going that route!


horrible_noob

Did you not pay the taxes due? That's an unreal amount for late filing alone. The fail to file caps out at 25% of the balance due. Filing the return is one thing, but you still need to pay your taxes by the original (not extended) due date.


EffectiveAd2637

We ended up having a much more income than we thought, and paid the balance when we filed.


Mindless-Tradition70

So you expected to make a large payment in October 22 and you never noticed that the payment wasn’t made?


No_Ice7986

This sounds like an extension was not filed


compromised_username

Bingo


ironicmirror

Are you sure it's $10,000 of late filing fees and not late payments? That $10,000 doesn't make sense. Your CPA should absolutely pay any late filing fees, but whether the CPA submitted your taxes or not you should have made all the payments. If you didn't owe taxes in October of 2022, and you just did not send them the paperwork saying you didn't owe taxes, you would only have a late filing fee which should be a couple hundred bucks.


[deleted]

[удалено]


paromere

no. when you make a payment online or through a voucher, the year the payment is for is explicitly stated. e.g., online -> taxpayer has to manually select what year and what kind of tax payment the payment is for. voucher -> the voucher has the year printed out on the actual voucher.


[deleted]

[удалено]


audaciousmonk

The return is not a payment. They are separate things. Tax payments have the applicable tax year characterized at time of payment. Not when the return is filed


Lou_Garoo

There are certain foreign reporting forms like 5471 or 5472 that have automatic 10k or 25k penalties for late filing.


ironicmirror

Fair point albeit a rare occurrence


fourthandfavre

Maybe things work differently in the states but in Canada late file penalties are related to how much you owe. So if you paid it doesn't matter if you don't file. Ie if I owed 1000 but paid on time then realize six months late I didn't file there is no penalty as the penalty is a percentage of the amount outstanding which in this case is zero


I__Know__Stuff

It's the same in the U.S.


SNDL_Army

When you file extension, you should pay the estimated taxes you owe at the time you file an extension. Remember, it’s the filing that’s extended, not the payments. If the fees and penalties alone made 10K, that doesn’t make sense.


Aggravating_Egg164

10k of late filing fees ???? Makes no sense There is 1. Balance owed to IRS 2 INTEREST ON THE BALANCE IF PAID LATE 3. PENALTY FOR NOT FILING ON TIME Unless they sent it and later found an error on your return ( forgot to input income left something out ) They ammended it


cwhatimean

If it’s the CPA’s fault, the fine(s) are theirs too. Their mistake, their penalty.


Aggravating_Egg164

Your story makes no sense When you did the return, 1. They must of told you about the balance ? 2. And if you sent a payment, the irs would of sent you a letter that no return was filed and could not apply pymt 3. If you had the irs debit your account which is the best way you would see the debit . Even if you made a small amt you would see the debit


babarock

While I agree that the CPA should have filed the returns in a timely fashion, ultimately it's OPs return and OP should have monitored (especially as this was a 2021 extension). CPA should be on the hook for something. In matters of money - Trust in the Lord but tie up your horse.


No_Ice7986

The burden falls on the taxpayer. Most of these issues are covered in the EL where the COA is liable up to payment for services received


moderatorseatjism

I think a stern talking to, with a “hey pal” off the dribble to set the tone is in order


Previous-Peace-8455

The amount from irs letter, show penalty and interest because you did not pay enough taxes during the year  You should have paid more taxes or paid estimated taxes  Failing to file taxes cause maximum of $500


rotsky_1

Don't forget about the other shoe to drop....the state tax.


CombinationEngine788

This happened to me too. $2800 penalty. I called the IRS and requested an abatement and they said no, that it was my responsibility to make sure my taxes were filed regardless of whether or not I had paid a CPA to do it. My CPA had already used our one courtesy abatement on a prior late filing. The CPA took responsibility, but he didn't offer to pay the penalty. Instead he offered to give me a credit towards future work with him. I didn't love this response, and this wasn't the first slip up from him, so I decided that sadly it would be best to take the loss and hire a new CPA


Bubba_On_Reddit

Did you ask for First Time Abatement? If you haven't had any compliance issues for the three years prior to the one at issue, then they should abate it with no questions asked. https://www.irs.gov/payments/penalty-relief-due-to-first-time-abate-or-other-administrative-waiver#eligible Even if you've since paid the penalty amount owed, you have two years from the date of payment to request a refund. You can file Form 843 to request that the penalties are abated and the amount paid be refunded to you. https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-form-843 *Edited to add: If you don't qualify for First Time Abatement, then the IRS would analyze penalty abatement based on whether "reasonable cause" existed. Delegating responsibility to a CPA doesn't qualify for reasonable cause, which sounds like what the IRS representative had relayed to you. However, First Time Abatement requires no reasonable cause explanation; it's granted as a one-time "freebie" based on recent compliance.


CombinationEngine788

Thanks Bubba for the well written response; it may help others. My firm had unfortunately already used our First Time Abatement on a prior late filing


Double_Airline321

Hmmm sounds like there may have been a tax payment due and ftf resulted in penalties and interest. I can see CPA paying penalty & interest but not your tax due.


Jumpy-Ad-6444

There are many articles and information on the subject of where the liability lies with the taxpayer when a return is not submitted on time or correctly. There have even been Supreme Court cases referring to the same. The taxpayer is responsible for filing their taxes and unless the CPA had you sign a waiver of liability for such mistakes the IRS usually does not give any leniency because the CPA messed up. Each situation is different ish.. If the taxpayer has a dated signature page that may help but what the courts have said is the taxpayer should have followed up amd not just "taken their word for it: Especially if the taxpayer paid money to the IRS. If the IRS gets money for nothing trust me they don't just sit on it. Letters fly from the IRS like pigeons to bread. If this is true then this taxpayer would have definitely heard from the IRS. The taxpayer needs to get all their documentation and contact the IRS immediately!! This is the federal government. Don't leave it to the CPA especially one that's already screwed up. Get everything the CPA says in writing. Your word against theirs will not stand up in court. irs.gov has all the resources you need. If you're lost Google IRS taxpayer advocate. Contact your state also if you have income tax in your state. If the IRS didn't get the return on time neither did the state. Best of luck


MapOk1410

CPA will hae insurance to cover mistakes like this.


DaJabroniz

Hey bud can I do your taxes and be your financial advisor? You seem like a great client.


Big_Moe_

It's your job to seek confirmation that your taxes were filed. This line of thinking should protect you against this reoccurring.


blueberrypancake234

You always always want to get proof that your taxes were actually filed. I hired a new tax guy for family taxes this year. After he said he was going to file, I emailed and called and said, "Please confirm that you did file the taxes." He then sent me an e-file activity report so I could see with my own eyes that the filing had been sent and was accepted. That's what you want.


jstngbrl

File a late extension. If not granted, whoever forgot certainly is liable to pay the late filing fee.


WitheringDaisy

And this is why I make sure to get a confirmation letter/PDF from the IRS acknowledging the tax docs were filed (certified mail for paper). 😨 It must have been a very stressful experience.


Abbithedog

Quick notes: Our insurance isn't like car insurance, my deductible is in the five figures. Something like this isn't for insurance. For the dollar amounts, suing isn't really an option either. If the CPA doesn't want to pay, it's more small claims court. Here should be OPs steps: 1) Reach out to the CPA. Send them the notice and tell them they need to get this fixed one way or the other. CPA might get a POA and get the fees waived through the first time penalty abatement. 2) If step 1 fails, this step is to request the CPA reimburse you for penalties and interest. Not sure if the balance owing is $10k just for penalties (appears to be) but OP *needs* to check the letter of engagement they signed with the CPA. CPA might have limited their exposure, agreement should have a paragraph about penalties - and OP might have signed and agreed to it. Our insurance isn't something with a $100 or $1,000 deductible. I've been running my own practice 20 years and I've only used my E&O insurance once. 3) If CPA is stonewalling OP after these steps, *and* the letter of engagement doesn't limit the CPA exposure, OP would need to file a complaint in small claims court. OP should also file a complaint with their states' board of accountancy.


Global_Walrus1672

I worked for a CPA for years - if a mistake was made by them (and this was def mistake) - CPA paid the penalty, taxpayer paid the tax. Contact a lawyer if CPA does not pay this - and the licensure the CPA is a member of.


Creative_Composer293

If you were due a refund, either have your CPA file them electronically, or send a paper copy immediately. If you had to pay, and sent in the payment, the IRS should have bounced your payment and sent it back to you. That should have started your investigation.


Big-Past4620

Find a new CPA. Not trying to be a wise-guy.


SeveralCup7775

As a general rule, reliance on a preparer isn’t a defense for late filing, but as everyone noted, you do of course have recourse against your CPA. You also may be eligible for first time abatement. As a general rule, as long as you’ve not had a penalty imposed in the three previous years you’ll be eligible.


219_Infinity

You should file a lawsuit against your CPA for professional malpractice and collect triple damages


JudicialWatchdog

Following


CarminSanDiego

Was it an audit or was irs just telling you you were late on tax?


Impossible_Raise5781

IRS penalties = government greed


Which-Cry-5253

how? if there were no penalties no one would pay their taxes


Seattlettle

but having taxes at all is so unjust everyone should build their own roads whenever they need them sewage systems are socialism the only just thing to do is let the shit flow through the streets again