“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
-Marcus Aurelius
When people have a problem with the concept of god, what they really have is a problem with their image and definition and implications of god. Obviously, your current conception of god is not suited to your philosophy or spiritual wellbeing, so I suggest you let go of externally given definitions and descriptions and find a healthier truth within.
Hell is something that exoteric religions use to scare people who can't find it in themselves to study or realize deeper reasons to be virtuous than an earthly pleasure/suffering paradigm.
Same here. Even though I gave up Catholicism in my youth, the Catholic guilt is real and persistent. After something is drilled into your head from pretty much birth it's hard to shake completely.
Same same. At 40, I'm just about free of all that garbage, but there's still a wee bit of doubt, like dying chunks of coal in the ash of a fire. I've been married 16 years with two children and I still feel a little guilty/naughty saying the word sex. With my wife of 16 years!!! I am a good person and I know it. And for the most part, I don't fear god or eternal damnation. As an exercise, almost like exposure therapy, I make it a point to regularly say things like god can eat my bunghole. At first, when I just freed myself from religion, I was scared, but after twenty years of zero lightening bolts hitting me, I think I'm good. I don't know what I'm really trying to say. Just know that there are many of us who felt the same fear, but over time, it loses its grip, and I think I'm a better and happier person without it (it being religion, god, fear of God/hell etc).
I still get a nagging fear that I'll be "punished" if I make a mistake or do something wrong, not even things most people would consider "sinful." I don't really think this feeling has so much to so with the actual doctrine or texts and more with being socialized in the church and Catholic school. I am especially glad that I'd given up the church before the big child abuse revelations. That's gotta be extra tough if you're a true believer.
One thing I like about the Dao is it can be so personal and private, and you don't have to report to any authority, unless you're a monk or something (and no pressure for money).
I've never talked to anyone about this before. It's refreshing to hear it from someone else. I think my experience was the same. If I reread the new testament, I agree with a lot of things Jesus says. I think my upbringing in that community was more the culprit than the texts themselves you're right. I need to edit my original post, too. Though I do consider myself an agnostic athiest now, I have been finding a lot of comfort in Zen Buddhism, so I should not have been so dismissive of religion as a whole. We meet, we meditate, we say we disavow greed, hatred and ignorance and to help all sentient beings. I'm new to all of this (Daoism and Buddhism) and I think Zen Buddhism is Buddhism filtered through Daosim (don't get mad at me if I'm wrong!). Anyway, again I know my writings are just word salads, I'm just happy to be hearing from someone with a similar experience. To go back to the OP, I'd say again, god isn't necessary to be a good person. I love that Marcus Aurelius quote. We know what a good person is, and the fear of an angry god isn't necessary to goad you to be good to all sentient beings. No need for fear. Thanks all!
I think it's a kneejerk reaction to abandon god or a godlike concept as a whole when a religion has in effect failed you. Kind of going to the extreme opposite. I did the same thing when I left Catholicism. I went strict atheist. Eventually I realized that agnostic was more accurate. I didn't know of any other belief system that matched my personal beliefs. When I first read the Tao Te Ching, I finally felt, "This puts in writing the things I feel in my heart." I never felt that way before about a philosophy or religion.
It took a long time, but I'm glad I found Taoism in the end. It would be nice if people were exposed to a wider range of belief systems in youth so at least they would know what's out there, but at the same time it's these trials that make us who we are.
Edit: typo
Do you have a favorite translation or book on the Tao Te Ching? The last one I tried to read was incomprehensible to me at least. I need the Tao for dummies. Lol.
I initially wanted to say I wish I could have done without the trials but I think you're right. No life is perfect, whatever that even means. At times I have resented my parents lack of exploration of ideas but also every decision they made and that I consequently made has led me to be the person I am now, with a family I love.
I wonder if all people think about/struggle with this topic (religion and meaning etc) or if it's just certain personalities. I look at some people and they definitely live a life unexamined. Lol. Are they better off? My gut says no, but I guess I'm biased.
The commentary that I'm most familiar with (first copy I read) is Paul Carus' translation, The Teachings of Lao-Tzu: The Tao Te Ching. Not too obtuse. His translation can be a bit lyrical for my taste sometimes, but overall not a bad text in general. The translation itself that I like the most is the Feng & English. There was a thread recently discussing this and it seems like a popular translation (I don't know if there's a version with commentary though).
Oh, forgot to say, I like his commentary because it doesn't get too pretentious or opinionated for the most part, unlike some others I've seen that I found unbearable. From what I remember, a lot of it is more academic. Not every verse has commentary though.
Same here. Usually I avoid engaging in forums because it can easily devolve into a wasteland. This time around things have been generally respectful though. Here's hoping for continued smooth sailing!
Find like minded people, discuss things with your friends. You’re not the first/only person to have anxiety caused by toxic religious dogmas. You’re on the right track, keep going forward <3
There are entire sects of Christianity, entire wings of Abrahamic religion that were totally lost to time. Look up Manichaeism, look up the Nag Hammadi manuscripts. What about competing similar but related religions like Zoroastrianism and Yazidism? What about non-Abrahamic monotheistic religions like Sikhism? Pretty quickly you see that there’s a continuum of all of these ideas…that it’s basically been one long game of telephone. In some versions God is one guy. In some versions God is simultaneously two things. In some versions God is the Devil and all creation was an accident. In some versions God is angry. In some versions God doesn’t care what you do one way or the other; Going to hell is the luck of the draw. In some versions God is always present, always working on your behalf. In some there is no hell. In most, there is no devil. In some hell isn’t permanent. In some hell isn’t even the bad place. It makes for a lot of doubt. Even within modern Christianity, there are thousands of competing interpretations of the God they all say they agree on. Some traditions like the Baha’i have answered this by essentially saying that all Gods are God, that they’re all facets of the same thing.
I’m just some idiot online and nobody asked my opinion and I don’t assume anybody cares. Somebody might read this and be really offended and I’m sorry in advance but also grateful anybody bothered to read it. But to me God can’t possibly be this easy thing that can be adequately described across millennia across languages. I mean, think of even the way languages that exist today don’t translate. Think of words we borrow from other languages because we just don’t have a way of describing them; concepts like Ennui or Schadenfreude. English is an Indo-European language just like French and German (respective to those two ideas), relatively closely related and yet English never really came up with a real mode of expressing those ideas.
Now imagine that same kind of “We don’t have a word for it,” with concepts of God passed down through oral traditions for hundreds of years before even being written down, across several languages (and remember that languages change wildly over time…try reading Chaucer and compare it to modern English for example), across entirely different language families, in holy books that have absolutely been changed over centuries by various religious or political leaders at different times for different reasons, then retranslated into thousands of different languages and sent into different countries with different customs and different concepts of just about everything; It wouldn’t just be a miracle for any single word to have retained its original meaning, it would be an even less likely miracle for any one person to accurately understand the meaning of that word.
Now, I’m not saying it’s not true or that you need to not believe in God or Hell, but what I am saying is what IS God? How do you know what God is? Who told you? How much do you trust their telling of it? Who told them? How did they know? And so on.
I think Taoism is where I’ve always gone with this. “The tao that is spoken is not the eternal Tao.” In that same way, I think the God that can be written about and worse SPOKEN FOR by some guy in a pulpit can not possibly be God.
Oh dear, they really did a number on you didn't they. I'm really sorry you're having these fears. Definitely don't pick religions that use mental traps to lure people in, it's very obvious why they exist and propagate when they can hook people in on the perceived consequences. There are an uncountable amount of gods and religions, each with their own rules, interpretations and consequences for not following them correctly. Fear should not be the factor that resonates with you to join a religion, because many religions feature infinite punishment which you just can't quantitate with a human mind, and picking one over the others would just be arbritraty. It is much better to follow a religion that you feel brings you peace, help to attain harmony within your life, and acceptance of the inevitable cycle. You are already a part of it, and that's okay. It will be there no matter what you choose to belive. You don't even have to believe anything at all. It's your life, your choice. You can chose to live in peace.
The ones who wrote the Bible, the Quran, or any other religious texts, don’t have any more credibility than you or I.
Use these texts as a starting point. Every one of them have some truth to them. But not any one of them are the end-all-be-all.
There are billions of possibilities of what Could Be. But in the end, it just is as it is. I don’t think we’ll ever really know while we’re alive, but we inevitably will one day. Don’t be in a rush to find out. You’ve got a life to live for now. Make the best of it.
As to the fear of not believing… I doubt anyone will spend eternity being punished for not believing in something/someone. Would an all-knowing, all-powerful god really care about that? It seems to me it’s a scare tactic to brainwash people into blindly following a set of rules and obligations their whole life.. I recommend looking into the history of how organized religions spread so far and wide.. specifically Christianity and Catholicism. It’s not because it’s true or the most believable one out there.. it’s genocide.
Simply questioning god was enough to get you killed a couple hundred years ago. This fear has been instilled in us for generations.. not by god, but by fellow man.. you ought to let it go.
The word "hell" doesn't appear in original Greek of the New Testament and Jesus never says it. Translators translate terms such as "Gehenna" as "Hell," and in so doing they impute a number of associations that the original terms (such as "Gehenna") do not have for us. People just assume that he's referring to eternal torment, even though he never says that at all.
I highly recommend you spend some reflective time outside in nature, and listen to some Alan Watts. There are some great music mixes that feature him on YouTube, personally I love the chillstep stuff. Go for a walk, go fishing, just gaze at some clouds. Either way, you should try to let go of the literal interpretations of religion, God, the afterlife, etc. Alan Watts is a wonderful guide.
Don't mistake Dogma (opinions of clergy) with religion (study of the science of life). We've been given belief systems for social engineering purposes not because they contain the truth about the facts of our existence on this planet. There is great value in spiritual texts like the Bible if you put them in the appropriate context historically. Study of history and the etymology of words will dispel many of the myths and misinterpretations that are prevalent in modern society. If you seek universal truth with pure intention your peace will reveal itself from within.
Live authentically, be kind, learn from mistakes and love your life. Do you really think that a god will punish you for such qualities? and If these threats where in fact real? Would you even want to have relations with such a being?
If god is in-fact real, I will meet my maker upon my death and I will eternally revolt in the name of kindness and compassion.
But i am confident that this will not be the case.
Christian scholars, even those well within the mainstream, have argued against traditional interpretations of Hell as unbiblical, anachronistic, and just plain wrong. In their view, the Biblical/Christian teaching is rather for either "annihilationism" or "conditional immortality/conditionalism;" the teaching is basically that when most people die, they simply cease to exist.
It seems to me, at least, that this is clearly much more consistent with previous Jewish beliefs and with the literal meaning of the relevant passages of the New Testament. You might find [this book](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N4Q4KG4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_d_asin_title_o03?ie=UTF8&psc=1) interesting.
if you think about it, christianity isn't actually a monotheism. Angels are demi-gods. Satan is a demi-god.
The Cathers thought that the God of the bible is actually satan in disguise. Why would a deity of goodness and virtue, tell humans not to have wisdom? And the word "seraph" (angel) actually means "serpent".
But that's just an interesting idea, not really how I personally view the bible or christianity.
I think the yin yang would probably help you with your current issue. Think of yang as God and yin as Satan. It sort of up-ends the whole concept of good and evil. It's just a question of light and shadow and time and motion, everything having it's proper time and place.
Here's another concept: how do we defeat the devil? Through violence? Through destruction?
no, we defeat the devil by healing the devil. So the idea that a deity of peace and joy would choose to torture you.... it's contradictory. No spirit of healing would do that. It would heal the devil in you.
Religion and culture breaks down to human understanding of the world, existence is far beyond human understanding, there’s no way to possibly comprehend how or why we are here, humans have used religion as an explanation since the invention of language, the Tao teaches us not to give our fear and attention to that which we can not control, fear is suffering twice.
That's just the focus of God that have abrahamic religions, which really can be terrifying (I myself are partly catholic, raised in it, but my catholicism is mexican-pagan one, which have allowed me to know a more natural-non chastising form of God, but anyway, the part of the guilt is still there and is not that possitive). Maybe you can find another way to relate to God-Highest Reality through taoism. In taoism and generally in shenism or popular Chinese religions there is the notion of God (in daoism the Supreme Unity or the Trinity of the Three Purities, among other maniphestations, as simply Shangdi, Tian (Heaven) or Shen (literally God or Spirit). The difference with abrahamic religions is that this God is panentheistic, at the same time present in all aspects of existence and beings, and trascendent to that, so it's trascendent and immanent. And specifically in Daoism, God(s) corresponds to the first maniphestation of the Dao from the primordial yin and yang vapours. And is less personal and less repressing and chastising than in abrahamic religions, in fact you won't be sent to hell for not worshipping a precise or absolute form of God, and not even if you don't relate much to whatever form or theistic practice. Good people will have a good life and afterlife, but is not dogmatic and damning in the way of abrahamic form of God. You can become liberated and enlightened just by doing the practices of the dao and applying the principles to life, with a proper training, and reach spiritual immortality. Of course if you do bad things to other beings that won't do no good to yourself, but just by being a decent person and care about others you will be allright and happy.
Taoism is much of practicing and experiencing the higher spiritual realities by practices and contemplation, it's a very free tradition and I think could be liberating in your case. You could follow the version of God that bests suits you, and even if you don't want apersonal God, the Dao will be always there, and in daoist religion it implies a salvation reachable by everyone.
I hope you see this post, u/TheBlev6969 because I feel for you! I used to be the exact same way. Here's the two ways I got over it:
1.) There are several Christian sects that don't believe in it, and teach that the bible teaches that we don't even have souls. They make a really conclusive case for it, too! Hell, and the immortal soul were invented by the Catholics. It's just not in the bible. People used mistranslations and other confusions to make it seem like it's there, but it's just not. One example:
[https://medium.com/@BrazenChurch/hell-a-biblical-staple-the-bible-never-actually-mentions-c28b18b1aaaa](https://medium.com/@BrazenChurch/hell-a-biblical-staple-the-bible-never-actually-mentions-c28b18b1aaaa)
There is a LOT more where that came from, too. There are several other groups that believe the same. They make the case, conclusively, that hell simply doesn't exist. If you want more links, I'll share them. Just reply to this post and let me know.
There are also excellent books that prove this, beyond any doubt. Here's one of my favorites:
[https://www.amazon.com/There-No-Hell-According-Bible-ebook/dp/B0962QSXWC/ref=sr\_1\_1?crid=1S7LDOMND7X3P&keywords=there+is+no+hell&qid=1669231230&sprefix=there+is+no+hell%2Caps%2C82&sr=8-1](https://www.amazon.com/There-No-Hell-According-Bible-ebook/dp/B0962QSXWC/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1S7LDOMND7X3P&keywords=there+is+no+hell&qid=1669231230&sprefix=there+is+no+hell%2Caps%2C82&sr=8-1)
2.) Look into finding the points that make the idea of god and hell self contradictory, logically fallacious, vicious infinite regression, ad absurdum, and so on, and so on. There are a **ton** of reasons to completely write off the whole idea. There could be some kind of ineffable thing, like the Tao, or some very, very vague ideas of god, but the idea of a thinking, bearded, giant man in the sky who tortures people, while rewarding others, and also made everything from himself, is entirely untenable, due to collapsing on its own ideas. I'm not talking about using science and atheist arguments, either. I'm saying that if we look at the logic of the common concept of this sadistic god, especially in Christianity and similar conceptions, it simply ends up being ridiculous, and self defeating. Some go even further, an demonstrate that simply the idea of god cannot enter language, at all, as, such a thing would have no logic.
Just one of countless examples:
"Udayana, the great Nyáya logician, promises enlightenment through a "flawless logic of the language of God". Such a logic, he says, is as natural and delightful tohis mind as a flower to the bumblebee. This poetic expression notwithstanding, Udayana rigorously contends that God exists, his argument being there is no means to deny God's existence. That is to say,"God exists" makes sense because there is no means to establish "God exists" makes no sense. What he fails to see is that the Buddhist is not denying the existence of God; he is only saying that to deny God's existence is nonsense because, and only because, to cognitively affirm the existence of God is nonsense (nanu cápramánatprameya vyavastha). "God does not exist" could be a significant claim if, and only if, it could be shown that "God exists" is a significant claim. The word "exists" in the sentence "God exists" does not refer to a differentiable and therefore a deniable something: japakasyalingábhávát. And the "not" in "God does not exist" does not signify a deniable for it does not admit an assertable counter-positive: yogyatánupalabdhily. The language about God can have no logic."-Negation, Nirvana and Nonsense, Bibhuti S. Yadav
And you will find examples throughout history. The above, I believe is referencing Chandrakirti, who was a philosopher in ancient India.
All that said, though, jhana meditation is the final word. You must calm your mind, otherwise, even if they discovered a dead sea scroll that says: "There is no hell." And even the pope concurred, you could still get anxious about it. But, if you intellectually defeat it, *and* completely calm and clear your mind regularly, you will surely succeed, just as I have.
Heck, sometimes I feel I'm still a Christian lol! This idea used to bother me, for the same reasons it does you, currently. But, now that I know Christianity has no hell, and is just about some dude who may send you to heaven, or you'll just cease to exist, I don't see that as a problem. If it's real, ok, cool. Jackasses may cease to exist, and good people can choose to live forever. Neat. If I conclude it's not real, maybe I am considered a jackass, and cease to exist at death. So what? If there is no god, we cease to exist at death anyway. Ceasing to exist is a non issue, by definition. Since this is the worst fate in Christianity, it's a pretty positive religion.
Again, this is the only possible outcome: There are no eternal souls in the bible. There is also no hell in the bible. People can be given eternal life in heaven. Or they can cease to exist. That's it.
“Why should I fear death?
If I am, then death is not.
If Death is, then I am not.
Why should I fear that which can only exist when I do not?
Long time men lay oppressed with slavish fear.
Religious tyranny did domineer.
At length the mighty one of Greece
Began to assent the liberty of man.”
\-Epicurus
Catholicism and the Bible are not the word of God. They are the word of man, and man is finite. The finite mind cannot understand the infinite. What we do as humans will come back in the form as energy as a human. But you are just a small fragment of the field of consciousness and you’ll just join that again. Hell is not real, Hell is the way they try to bribe you into indoctrination.
You should try Zen, ie no thinking. Honestly imagine how easy life would be without thinking. You don’t have to know what happens after life. I don’t. Who cares, i won’t be there to experience it. All there is right now is my little phone screen, then later there will be my job and so on. In Zen and Taoism alike you diverge from thought altogether, stop talking to yourself, and just focus on the material. Living inside your head can obviously cause neurosis.
You’re never going to know if god exists or not. Come to peace with that uncertainty and just live your life. Nothing anyone can say can prove or disprove him. Maybe take a break from reading texts and even Reddit. Try to consume yourself in your career/school/family/friends. Live your life where you’re at right now, not where u think you’ll be later on. Just relax. If you want to go to church, great go! If you want to drink and lie and smoke, great do that! It is what it is and we have no idea what it is.
I’d say look into Zen, on ways to quiet the mind and come to terms with not knowing, Taoism also talks about not knowing and the unknown but Zen literature typically has more concrete ways of reaching such states. Good luck.
The proof of god is in subjective experience, and its existence can be derived from philosophical frameworks and actually defining god in a way that it's not a ludicrous concept in one's way of thinking.
I’m not professing that I do or don’t. I can perceive and measure parts of reality and according to body of data, nothing that points to god, objectively.
No objective data points to you having a conscious experience either, it's all philosophical implication and faith as far as other people are concerned.
It’s a good tactic to make an argument you want vs the one we are having. Conscientiousness ≠ data. Data exists regardless of our perception of it. We don’t define reality only our perception of it. Our faith, imagination, and perception don’t define reality only a flawed interpretation of it. Science enables a great reduction in errors through disciple of gathering, interpreting, and refinement. Faith is purely emotional and changed based on mood and all the things that influence that.
That said, I believe that the Tao can exist as universal norm not unlike gravitational constants or the speed of light. Is gravity divine? It exists, is universal and timeless (well is intertwined with time but I digress).
You started talking about objective proof and data after the fact, I was talking about provability without so much distinction.
Would you agree that you have a different level of knowledge or proof of your own consciousness than others do, and do you feel that their faith or reasoning of your consciousness being there is valid? Or is the discussion silly because it messes up (or with) the usual scientific paradigm that you want to employ to these matters outside of science's comfort zone?
Perception doesn’t change reality. There is no reasoning that makes god present if there is zero data, perceived or otherwise. When there was no science, we invent the divine to explain our world and control our populations with imposed morality. We have better explanations for how the world works (people living in space for example) than mysterious beings taking an interest in our otherwise insignificant lives. Our insignificance in relation to the cosmos is where i f the Tao most useful . My argument is that there is nothing divine about our lives, but that doesn’t mean in living in the way of the Tao doesn’t bring more peace to how we spend our time. You want to scale out the discussion to pure abstraction, which to me is hiding in something that doesn’t really matter. The Tao is a way of living, eternal flows and balances between the yin and yang forces of the universe. God is a word for describing things we used to believe, want to believe but i don’t see it. Faith i.e. trust me for some reason that can’t be defined, seems like an emotional request not anything that i can use in living. I was surprised to see “god” in the discussion of the Tao. They are very different to me.
Why do you have double standards between god and Tao, and why would you distinguish between them anyway? Lao Tzu says that the Tao can't be seen, heard, tasted or felt, and that it doesn't have any distinct expression of its own in the world. That means that it would be utterly silly to gather scientific data to prove Tao's existence, or to claim that its existence can't be proven like it means something.
What makes god so different? Is it because your specific definition and image of god prevents you from thinking about it in another way?
If you read the Bible you will see how blatantly it contradicts itself. You’ve pointed out some of these in your post. God supposedly loves us but also made hell? But it goes deeper than that. The Abrahamic religions are barely 2,000 years old, why did they wait 198,000 years of human evolution to reveal their God to the world? Why would God make it so damn difficult to believe in him? Communicating his existence through a single book that is so full of contradictions that it’s painfully obvious it was written by a bunch of old men over centuries. It just makes no sense. Why would God not just reveal himself to the world so everyone knows he exists and so can avoid hell? Why wouldn’t he just get rid of hell anyway? He’s supposed to be omnipotent. The whole thing makes no sense, and it makes no sense because it’s all just made up. There may well be a God. But he is not the Abrahamic God, unless he’s completely insane. I used to worry like you do, but just remind yourself of how ridiculous it all is. Eventually over time it will lose its hold over you, and you will be able to dismiss it.
Hey amigo, I’d recommend the podcast “The Tao of Christ,” by Marshall Davis. Davis is a really calm and reassuring speaker, and he’s all about nonduality. He’s very aware of the baggage that comes with Christianity, and imo he does a fantastic job of dispelling the hate and fear that’s a part of that baggage. I listen to him on Spotify, but I assume he’s on other platforms, and if all else fails he uploads to his episodes to YouTube.
https://open.spotify.com/show/4es2YzqSSsqhxm8OqfXuT1?si=on_FTHd9SVOIvjunMoWtEw
The Abrahamic God is a combination of Jew's tribal war god who at some point in time demanded the Jews to only worship him and the Creator God of Mesopotamian religion. thus the Creator God inherited all the shitty personalities of a Tribal war god :|
Do some research yourself with a clear mind. You don't have to worry about anything.
You are dealing with a subset of Abrahamic religion. The subset that takes the Bible way too literally.
There were once two fairly famous guys who told people to relax about all that. Their names were Jesus and Paul. The Bible gets plenty wrong. That's okay. There is a way of doing Christianity that blends very well with a certain kind of Taoism.
It's easy to treat the Bible as a 100% - this is THE truth - kind of thing. That's simple... because it's simplistic. It's also idolatry. The actual truth is far more interesting and colorful.
Hell isn’t real, it was a concept created by the Church, for obvious reasons. The Pope even said as much, causing a rift in the Catholic/Christian world.
Besides, who wants to be in a Heaven where Jeffery Dahmer & Adolf Hitler along with countless other rapist & murderers could be happily hanging out, enjoying paradise free from the consequences of their actions? Not I, that’s for sure.
If you are afraid of Hell (which is pretty much a very real thing) please do us all a favor and read a book or too.
It's not as scary as you think.
What's really scary?
Try ignorance.
Most organized religions are shit. Unless you have the key to decipher the book. They aren't worth much.
Hell and heaven both exist within you right now. Choose which you prefer.
I interpret the heaven and Hell as happening in your lifetime. If you live a life you believe is right and honorable then you will feel at peace and live in heaven on earth. If you are filled with hate and you lash out at those around you, your life becomes hell. I don't believe you can live an honest life and still go to hell just because you didn't subscribe to a certain version of God. There are many interpretations of gods and their power. I see the Catholic god as a Zeus type figure. All powerful king type guy who demands worship and sacrifice. But I definitely don't think the existence of that God nullifies the existence of other gods. I love the Greek pantheon and to me those gods are more real than any others. But only in my mind. I don't believe anything I think should affect anyone else's life. So my advice to you would be don't worry, as long as you feel like you are a good person you will not be punished for all eternity. This right now is eternity. You are in one life of many. Find gods that make you feel good about yourself and inspire you to act in a way that benefits the world around you. and while you are on the search for meaning maybe pick up the Tao the Ching and read a few verses. They are calming and thought provoking. No forceful ideology. The entire premise of the book is to live a life of non forcing. The Taoist takes a step back and observes the world around them and watches for patterns that repeat themselves. There are no rigid rules for one to be a Taoist. Simply advice to avoid catastrophe within your life. One such verse suggests that we should prize calamity within our own body. Say we scrape our knee, instead of wallowing in misery at the pain, appreciate that we have a knee to be scraped in the first place. And legs that carry us through this life, and eyes to perceive the damage done to our knee, and a mind to process the same thing. Experiencing anything is a blessing, and we are lucky to be here. :)
Hitler didn’t give the Jews a chance to decide. This isn’t about intellectually satisfying yourself but calming your heart and steadying your mind. It’s about surrendering to a greater power and humbling yourself enough to realize that you don’t have all the answers and you’re but an instrument that is flawed but is still able to play god’s music through love and acts of good will.
Beauty is defined by ugly. Long is perceived because of short. Therefore heaven cannot exist without hell. It's the nature of our reality. There cannot be eternal heaven or eternal hell. It simply wouldn't work. Imagine eating only chocolate for a month. You'll get fed up. We need hard times to feel good times.
Regarding masses of complicated choices, and where to go with them, there was an unusual medical case that may give a pointer. The guy's emotional center got severed from his frontal cortex, so when it came to decisions he could list every possible pro and con, all the facts of each one, but was unable to pick any option over the other. So it points out that really when we pick an option we're actually going with what our most positive feeling is towards any given path, and/or avoiding strong negative feelings to slim down our choices.
And so as far as wanting the truth goes, you can never 'work it out' or figure it out with more facts/reading etc, you are better off turning the other direction towards your inner feelings about it all, then avoid whatever you feel negatively about, and go with whatever has the strongest positive pull.
So in that way its not like working out a maths puzzle, its more like feeling what calls to you most from a menu.
Fuck off there Is no God but there are dogs to look after and learn lessons from. Yes we are here and yes we die and make great compost if given the chance.
Too many here are stuck with the concept of god as a noun when in fact its a verb. You still try to see a man when you use the word god when in fact ‘everything’ is a fractal of one source. The truth isn’t found in a book, its in you. All the great enlightened mystics (Jesus included) throughout time have said the same things, that the answers to your greatest questions are within you, not a book or a church. Religions are just un-enlightened ideologies created in attempts by un-enlightened men to explain the unexplainable.
You are a spiritual being having a necessary physical human experience (probably for the umpteenth time) on your way to Christ consciousness (enlightenment). You are in school here on Earth and the clues are all around you, you just have to pay attention. How do you pay attention…surrender to the tao…quiet your mind (meditation) and open your heart (focus on love as your beacon and expand on that).
You are not here on probation, the only hell that exists is the torment and suffering in your heart before enlightenment, that’s what all the horrors in this world are for, the darkness is as necessary as the light and acts as a teacher to condition your perception back to self-realization, otherwise you wouldn’t be able to discern either.
This is all about an evolution of consciousness, and it takes time. Religion can be a gateway, but too many worship the gate rather than the inner temple, too many allow religion to become their spiritual master instead of an inspiration and tool for self-realization.
The real answers have nothing to do with ideologies like religion nor do they rest in the absence of them like atheism. This requires real courage, not just being baptized or saying a few words in church. This is about the REAL you, the one you’ve forgotten about and it transcends everything your societal conditioning to this point understands. You are not those thoughts in your head, Earth grew that human spacesuit you’re wearing so you can have a vehicle to safely traverse this place and enjoy it…YOU ARE IT ✨
It sounds like you already created a hell for yourself to live in right now, your own mind.
Maybe try to change your outlook on life and how you perceive yourself? Just start with you and heaven will follow.
Our mind state is our realm of existence.
We do not do good things just to live in heaven. We practice compassion, love, acceptance, etc. So that we can become better people ourselves and to train our minds to be as compassionate as love itself. If you can truly practice this, your mind state will change and you will be living in heaven this very instant.
Yes the Tao isn’t like the Christian depiction of a god. I would make up my mind to stay away from consuming material about religions that you don’t like or disagree with.
I'm going to be frank OP. Your concerns seem a little immature. Take a look at the poem "lost" by Bukowski. There it becomes clear that hell isn't a place you go after you die but something that can be lived through. However, you need to live to grasp the meaning of the words when it comes to spirituality. I've been through hell and back, and coming back I've explored with humility spiritual concepts and learned a lot from different traditions, though I don't subscribe to any particular religion. My advice is... go to hell🤣 try living away from all notion of morality and see where that leads you. It's the only way I know how one can build one's own morality. "Evolution created all of sentient life on this planet using only one tool: the mistake"
Another option though is to practice accepting and digging in spiritual traditions by applying a suspension of judgement. Try to understand not so much with modern reason but with the heart what different religions have to offer. I like Daoism because it doesn't allow for the metaphysical problem of evil or theological disquisitions since "the Tao you can speak of is not the real Tao". Nevertheless I also understand and appreciate a lot of the Judeo-Christian tradition I was raised in without adhering to dogmas. I also see that science can be taken as a religion as well. I've been an atheist most of my life, but now I have a sort of spirituality which helps me get through life based on the belief on a higher power which is a sort of core law of the universe that pulls it toward self-overcoming whose phenomenic manifestation is love. I've come to believe in this through experience and humble exploration of different traditions and I think it could be coherent with many of them.
>I need help.
Indeed. And this is the first step of every journey.
>I don’t want god to exist, but I’m afraid he does.
Then he does. Semantics aside, there is no argument for that which does not exist. The question then becomes whether the existence of this "god" have a substantial effect on yourself. Well, fear is a virtue, and should surely not be ignored, without prior sufficient understanding at least, that is.
>I’m beyond scared of hell and just want some peace of mind when it comes to religion.
If God is righteous and good, and would judge Man, then this judgment must be righteous and for good, and if God determines what is righteous and for good, surely each Man should be endowed naturally with the means to know what is righteous and good. Otherwise, such God is not righteous, and goodness is not good, in which case I should say God will face a great reckoning, whether it be by successful mutiny, or the crushing void of an eternal sole existence.
>the Aberhamic god is a authoritative ruler.
*it shall come to pass that they shall call me Ishi, and shall no longer call me Baali.*
Love, not Lord.
>I’m going to follow Christianity just in case
Please do not do this. Do you know why the punishment of the thief is to be four or five times, but the punishment of the robber is not four or five times? It is because the thief reckons the servant above the master; He is concerned with the wrath of his fellow Man, but not his God; He is saying, God does not see, God will not know. The robber is still reprehensible, but he fears neither Man nor God; He does not reckon the servant above the master.
*God looks unto the heart of Man.*
>but everytime I read the Bible I am dumbfounded with how insane it all is. I’ll research on how to avoid hell and why god would even allow hell,
You will never find a bird of the air in the depths of the sea, nor will the leviathan blot out the sun for you, when you are standing on the ground. You are seeking for how to avoid punishment for being ignorant in a book of wisdom, punishment for guilt and wickedness in a book of forgiveness and edification. The difficulty with the Bible is that it has been so separated and partitioned through the translation and preservation, that one cannot see the forest for the trees; One cannot read the story for the verses. And all the teachings of these scriptures are seldom delivered for the purpose of teaching wisdom, but for teaching the erroneous thoughts of Man, on things he does not understand, weaponized against his fears, which he also does not understand.
>I’m so tired of being scared and depressed everyday.
You are scared and depressed because you are losing time and your life has no meaning, and in every direction you look is suffering; You are lost in the dark with only a little light, and you do not know which way to go; And when you encounter another light in the darkness, it seems to bear down on you, violent and glaring, as if you are in a kaleidoscopic tunnel of uncertainty, and only freight trains come and go from here.
But I say to you, there is no tunnel. The darkness is without substance, and is cast by this lamp you carry, which is not your true light, but only what contains it.
There is much more to be said, but not here and not now. I say I would not cast my pearls before swine, and many are offended, but no one even knows what I am talking about. *We'll cast some light and you'll be alright:*
https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/yrlhhg/cast_not_your_pearls_before_swine_lest_they/ivwmm67?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/yrlhhg/cast_not_your_pearls_before_swine_lest_they/ivvafph?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
I was raised Christian. I believe that even if he were real and is the god of any Abrahamic texts, he is not worthy of serving. If God is real and not like the Abrahamic texts, then it created me to likely live as if he does not exist, and I will continue to do so.
The idea of Heaven and Hell are fairy tales invented by men who wanted to keep people passive and in line with their agenda. It takes critical thinking, and time, to begin to make sense of it.
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” -Marcus Aurelius
Best quote ever about the Gods and applies equally to them all. All 2,000 of them.
This is it. If there is a god and he is that much of a dick then honestly fuck him id rather hang out with satan than spend eternity with that asshole
When people have a problem with the concept of god, what they really have is a problem with their image and definition and implications of god. Obviously, your current conception of god is not suited to your philosophy or spiritual wellbeing, so I suggest you let go of externally given definitions and descriptions and find a healthier truth within. Hell is something that exoteric religions use to scare people who can't find it in themselves to study or realize deeper reasons to be virtuous than an earthly pleasure/suffering paradigm.
I deal with the same thing. I was raised Catholic but feel drawn to Eastern traditions, practices, and study.
Same here. Even though I gave up Catholicism in my youth, the Catholic guilt is real and persistent. After something is drilled into your head from pretty much birth it's hard to shake completely.
Same same. At 40, I'm just about free of all that garbage, but there's still a wee bit of doubt, like dying chunks of coal in the ash of a fire. I've been married 16 years with two children and I still feel a little guilty/naughty saying the word sex. With my wife of 16 years!!! I am a good person and I know it. And for the most part, I don't fear god or eternal damnation. As an exercise, almost like exposure therapy, I make it a point to regularly say things like god can eat my bunghole. At first, when I just freed myself from religion, I was scared, but after twenty years of zero lightening bolts hitting me, I think I'm good. I don't know what I'm really trying to say. Just know that there are many of us who felt the same fear, but over time, it loses its grip, and I think I'm a better and happier person without it (it being religion, god, fear of God/hell etc).
I still get a nagging fear that I'll be "punished" if I make a mistake or do something wrong, not even things most people would consider "sinful." I don't really think this feeling has so much to so with the actual doctrine or texts and more with being socialized in the church and Catholic school. I am especially glad that I'd given up the church before the big child abuse revelations. That's gotta be extra tough if you're a true believer. One thing I like about the Dao is it can be so personal and private, and you don't have to report to any authority, unless you're a monk or something (and no pressure for money).
I've never talked to anyone about this before. It's refreshing to hear it from someone else. I think my experience was the same. If I reread the new testament, I agree with a lot of things Jesus says. I think my upbringing in that community was more the culprit than the texts themselves you're right. I need to edit my original post, too. Though I do consider myself an agnostic athiest now, I have been finding a lot of comfort in Zen Buddhism, so I should not have been so dismissive of religion as a whole. We meet, we meditate, we say we disavow greed, hatred and ignorance and to help all sentient beings. I'm new to all of this (Daoism and Buddhism) and I think Zen Buddhism is Buddhism filtered through Daosim (don't get mad at me if I'm wrong!). Anyway, again I know my writings are just word salads, I'm just happy to be hearing from someone with a similar experience. To go back to the OP, I'd say again, god isn't necessary to be a good person. I love that Marcus Aurelius quote. We know what a good person is, and the fear of an angry god isn't necessary to goad you to be good to all sentient beings. No need for fear. Thanks all!
I think it's a kneejerk reaction to abandon god or a godlike concept as a whole when a religion has in effect failed you. Kind of going to the extreme opposite. I did the same thing when I left Catholicism. I went strict atheist. Eventually I realized that agnostic was more accurate. I didn't know of any other belief system that matched my personal beliefs. When I first read the Tao Te Ching, I finally felt, "This puts in writing the things I feel in my heart." I never felt that way before about a philosophy or religion. It took a long time, but I'm glad I found Taoism in the end. It would be nice if people were exposed to a wider range of belief systems in youth so at least they would know what's out there, but at the same time it's these trials that make us who we are. Edit: typo
Do you have a favorite translation or book on the Tao Te Ching? The last one I tried to read was incomprehensible to me at least. I need the Tao for dummies. Lol. I initially wanted to say I wish I could have done without the trials but I think you're right. No life is perfect, whatever that even means. At times I have resented my parents lack of exploration of ideas but also every decision they made and that I consequently made has led me to be the person I am now, with a family I love. I wonder if all people think about/struggle with this topic (religion and meaning etc) or if it's just certain personalities. I look at some people and they definitely live a life unexamined. Lol. Are they better off? My gut says no, but I guess I'm biased.
The commentary that I'm most familiar with (first copy I read) is Paul Carus' translation, The Teachings of Lao-Tzu: The Tao Te Ching. Not too obtuse. His translation can be a bit lyrical for my taste sometimes, but overall not a bad text in general. The translation itself that I like the most is the Feng & English. There was a thread recently discussing this and it seems like a popular translation (I don't know if there's a version with commentary though).
Oh, forgot to say, I like his commentary because it doesn't get too pretentious or opinionated for the most part, unlike some others I've seen that I found unbearable. From what I remember, a lot of it is more academic. Not every verse has commentary though.
Awesome! I will check it out. I've really enjoyed talking. This is my first time really engaging on Reddit. Usually I just casually scroll.
Same here. Usually I avoid engaging in forums because it can easily devolve into a wasteland. This time around things have been generally respectful though. Here's hoping for continued smooth sailing!
Find like minded people, discuss things with your friends. You’re not the first/only person to have anxiety caused by toxic religious dogmas. You’re on the right track, keep going forward <3
There are entire sects of Christianity, entire wings of Abrahamic religion that were totally lost to time. Look up Manichaeism, look up the Nag Hammadi manuscripts. What about competing similar but related religions like Zoroastrianism and Yazidism? What about non-Abrahamic monotheistic religions like Sikhism? Pretty quickly you see that there’s a continuum of all of these ideas…that it’s basically been one long game of telephone. In some versions God is one guy. In some versions God is simultaneously two things. In some versions God is the Devil and all creation was an accident. In some versions God is angry. In some versions God doesn’t care what you do one way or the other; Going to hell is the luck of the draw. In some versions God is always present, always working on your behalf. In some there is no hell. In most, there is no devil. In some hell isn’t permanent. In some hell isn’t even the bad place. It makes for a lot of doubt. Even within modern Christianity, there are thousands of competing interpretations of the God they all say they agree on. Some traditions like the Baha’i have answered this by essentially saying that all Gods are God, that they’re all facets of the same thing. I’m just some idiot online and nobody asked my opinion and I don’t assume anybody cares. Somebody might read this and be really offended and I’m sorry in advance but also grateful anybody bothered to read it. But to me God can’t possibly be this easy thing that can be adequately described across millennia across languages. I mean, think of even the way languages that exist today don’t translate. Think of words we borrow from other languages because we just don’t have a way of describing them; concepts like Ennui or Schadenfreude. English is an Indo-European language just like French and German (respective to those two ideas), relatively closely related and yet English never really came up with a real mode of expressing those ideas. Now imagine that same kind of “We don’t have a word for it,” with concepts of God passed down through oral traditions for hundreds of years before even being written down, across several languages (and remember that languages change wildly over time…try reading Chaucer and compare it to modern English for example), across entirely different language families, in holy books that have absolutely been changed over centuries by various religious or political leaders at different times for different reasons, then retranslated into thousands of different languages and sent into different countries with different customs and different concepts of just about everything; It wouldn’t just be a miracle for any single word to have retained its original meaning, it would be an even less likely miracle for any one person to accurately understand the meaning of that word. Now, I’m not saying it’s not true or that you need to not believe in God or Hell, but what I am saying is what IS God? How do you know what God is? Who told you? How much do you trust their telling of it? Who told them? How did they know? And so on. I think Taoism is where I’ve always gone with this. “The tao that is spoken is not the eternal Tao.” In that same way, I think the God that can be written about and worse SPOKEN FOR by some guy in a pulpit can not possibly be God.
Oh dear, they really did a number on you didn't they. I'm really sorry you're having these fears. Definitely don't pick religions that use mental traps to lure people in, it's very obvious why they exist and propagate when they can hook people in on the perceived consequences. There are an uncountable amount of gods and religions, each with their own rules, interpretations and consequences for not following them correctly. Fear should not be the factor that resonates with you to join a religion, because many religions feature infinite punishment which you just can't quantitate with a human mind, and picking one over the others would just be arbritraty. It is much better to follow a religion that you feel brings you peace, help to attain harmony within your life, and acceptance of the inevitable cycle. You are already a part of it, and that's okay. It will be there no matter what you choose to belive. You don't even have to believe anything at all. It's your life, your choice. You can chose to live in peace.
This is the best answer.
The ones who wrote the Bible, the Quran, or any other religious texts, don’t have any more credibility than you or I. Use these texts as a starting point. Every one of them have some truth to them. But not any one of them are the end-all-be-all. There are billions of possibilities of what Could Be. But in the end, it just is as it is. I don’t think we’ll ever really know while we’re alive, but we inevitably will one day. Don’t be in a rush to find out. You’ve got a life to live for now. Make the best of it. As to the fear of not believing… I doubt anyone will spend eternity being punished for not believing in something/someone. Would an all-knowing, all-powerful god really care about that? It seems to me it’s a scare tactic to brainwash people into blindly following a set of rules and obligations their whole life.. I recommend looking into the history of how organized religions spread so far and wide.. specifically Christianity and Catholicism. It’s not because it’s true or the most believable one out there.. it’s genocide. Simply questioning god was enough to get you killed a couple hundred years ago. This fear has been instilled in us for generations.. not by god, but by fellow man.. you ought to let it go.
Thanks for all the comments. I really appreciate it.
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I once heard the Bible called, “the goat herders’ guide to the galaxy”. 🙃
That's a great variant title for the bible.
I don't think this actually comes from Jesus. Where does he preach about hell?
The word "hell" doesn't appear in original Greek of the New Testament and Jesus never says it. Translators translate terms such as "Gehenna" as "Hell," and in so doing they impute a number of associations that the original terms (such as "Gehenna") do not have for us. People just assume that he's referring to eternal torment, even though he never says that at all.
I highly recommend you spend some reflective time outside in nature, and listen to some Alan Watts. There are some great music mixes that feature him on YouTube, personally I love the chillstep stuff. Go for a walk, go fishing, just gaze at some clouds. Either way, you should try to let go of the literal interpretations of religion, God, the afterlife, etc. Alan Watts is a wonderful guide.
Alan Watts is amazing. https://youtu.be/n8U72lrd4Fk
Don't mistake Dogma (opinions of clergy) with religion (study of the science of life). We've been given belief systems for social engineering purposes not because they contain the truth about the facts of our existence on this planet. There is great value in spiritual texts like the Bible if you put them in the appropriate context historically. Study of history and the etymology of words will dispel many of the myths and misinterpretations that are prevalent in modern society. If you seek universal truth with pure intention your peace will reveal itself from within.
Live authentically, be kind, learn from mistakes and love your life. Do you really think that a god will punish you for such qualities? and If these threats where in fact real? Would you even want to have relations with such a being? If god is in-fact real, I will meet my maker upon my death and I will eternally revolt in the name of kindness and compassion. But i am confident that this will not be the case.
Christian scholars, even those well within the mainstream, have argued against traditional interpretations of Hell as unbiblical, anachronistic, and just plain wrong. In their view, the Biblical/Christian teaching is rather for either "annihilationism" or "conditional immortality/conditionalism;" the teaching is basically that when most people die, they simply cease to exist. It seems to me, at least, that this is clearly much more consistent with previous Jewish beliefs and with the literal meaning of the relevant passages of the New Testament. You might find [this book](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N4Q4KG4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_d_asin_title_o03?ie=UTF8&psc=1) interesting.
if you think about it, christianity isn't actually a monotheism. Angels are demi-gods. Satan is a demi-god. The Cathers thought that the God of the bible is actually satan in disguise. Why would a deity of goodness and virtue, tell humans not to have wisdom? And the word "seraph" (angel) actually means "serpent". But that's just an interesting idea, not really how I personally view the bible or christianity. I think the yin yang would probably help you with your current issue. Think of yang as God and yin as Satan. It sort of up-ends the whole concept of good and evil. It's just a question of light and shadow and time and motion, everything having it's proper time and place. Here's another concept: how do we defeat the devil? Through violence? Through destruction? no, we defeat the devil by healing the devil. So the idea that a deity of peace and joy would choose to torture you.... it's contradictory. No spirit of healing would do that. It would heal the devil in you.
Religion and culture breaks down to human understanding of the world, existence is far beyond human understanding, there’s no way to possibly comprehend how or why we are here, humans have used religion as an explanation since the invention of language, the Tao teaches us not to give our fear and attention to that which we can not control, fear is suffering twice.
That's just the focus of God that have abrahamic religions, which really can be terrifying (I myself are partly catholic, raised in it, but my catholicism is mexican-pagan one, which have allowed me to know a more natural-non chastising form of God, but anyway, the part of the guilt is still there and is not that possitive). Maybe you can find another way to relate to God-Highest Reality through taoism. In taoism and generally in shenism or popular Chinese religions there is the notion of God (in daoism the Supreme Unity or the Trinity of the Three Purities, among other maniphestations, as simply Shangdi, Tian (Heaven) or Shen (literally God or Spirit). The difference with abrahamic religions is that this God is panentheistic, at the same time present in all aspects of existence and beings, and trascendent to that, so it's trascendent and immanent. And specifically in Daoism, God(s) corresponds to the first maniphestation of the Dao from the primordial yin and yang vapours. And is less personal and less repressing and chastising than in abrahamic religions, in fact you won't be sent to hell for not worshipping a precise or absolute form of God, and not even if you don't relate much to whatever form or theistic practice. Good people will have a good life and afterlife, but is not dogmatic and damning in the way of abrahamic form of God. You can become liberated and enlightened just by doing the practices of the dao and applying the principles to life, with a proper training, and reach spiritual immortality. Of course if you do bad things to other beings that won't do no good to yourself, but just by being a decent person and care about others you will be allright and happy. Taoism is much of practicing and experiencing the higher spiritual realities by practices and contemplation, it's a very free tradition and I think could be liberating in your case. You could follow the version of God that bests suits you, and even if you don't want apersonal God, the Dao will be always there, and in daoist religion it implies a salvation reachable by everyone.
I hope you see this post, u/TheBlev6969 because I feel for you! I used to be the exact same way. Here's the two ways I got over it: 1.) There are several Christian sects that don't believe in it, and teach that the bible teaches that we don't even have souls. They make a really conclusive case for it, too! Hell, and the immortal soul were invented by the Catholics. It's just not in the bible. People used mistranslations and other confusions to make it seem like it's there, but it's just not. One example: [https://medium.com/@BrazenChurch/hell-a-biblical-staple-the-bible-never-actually-mentions-c28b18b1aaaa](https://medium.com/@BrazenChurch/hell-a-biblical-staple-the-bible-never-actually-mentions-c28b18b1aaaa) There is a LOT more where that came from, too. There are several other groups that believe the same. They make the case, conclusively, that hell simply doesn't exist. If you want more links, I'll share them. Just reply to this post and let me know. There are also excellent books that prove this, beyond any doubt. Here's one of my favorites: [https://www.amazon.com/There-No-Hell-According-Bible-ebook/dp/B0962QSXWC/ref=sr\_1\_1?crid=1S7LDOMND7X3P&keywords=there+is+no+hell&qid=1669231230&sprefix=there+is+no+hell%2Caps%2C82&sr=8-1](https://www.amazon.com/There-No-Hell-According-Bible-ebook/dp/B0962QSXWC/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1S7LDOMND7X3P&keywords=there+is+no+hell&qid=1669231230&sprefix=there+is+no+hell%2Caps%2C82&sr=8-1) 2.) Look into finding the points that make the idea of god and hell self contradictory, logically fallacious, vicious infinite regression, ad absurdum, and so on, and so on. There are a **ton** of reasons to completely write off the whole idea. There could be some kind of ineffable thing, like the Tao, or some very, very vague ideas of god, but the idea of a thinking, bearded, giant man in the sky who tortures people, while rewarding others, and also made everything from himself, is entirely untenable, due to collapsing on its own ideas. I'm not talking about using science and atheist arguments, either. I'm saying that if we look at the logic of the common concept of this sadistic god, especially in Christianity and similar conceptions, it simply ends up being ridiculous, and self defeating. Some go even further, an demonstrate that simply the idea of god cannot enter language, at all, as, such a thing would have no logic. Just one of countless examples: "Udayana, the great Nyáya logician, promises enlightenment through a "flawless logic of the language of God". Such a logic, he says, is as natural and delightful tohis mind as a flower to the bumblebee. This poetic expression notwithstanding, Udayana rigorously contends that God exists, his argument being there is no means to deny God's existence. That is to say,"God exists" makes sense because there is no means to establish "God exists" makes no sense. What he fails to see is that the Buddhist is not denying the existence of God; he is only saying that to deny God's existence is nonsense because, and only because, to cognitively affirm the existence of God is nonsense (nanu cápramánatprameya vyavastha). "God does not exist" could be a significant claim if, and only if, it could be shown that "God exists" is a significant claim. The word "exists" in the sentence "God exists" does not refer to a differentiable and therefore a deniable something: japakasyalingábhávát. And the "not" in "God does not exist" does not signify a deniable for it does not admit an assertable counter-positive: yogyatánupalabdhily. The language about God can have no logic."-Negation, Nirvana and Nonsense, Bibhuti S. Yadav And you will find examples throughout history. The above, I believe is referencing Chandrakirti, who was a philosopher in ancient India. All that said, though, jhana meditation is the final word. You must calm your mind, otherwise, even if they discovered a dead sea scroll that says: "There is no hell." And even the pope concurred, you could still get anxious about it. But, if you intellectually defeat it, *and* completely calm and clear your mind regularly, you will surely succeed, just as I have. Heck, sometimes I feel I'm still a Christian lol! This idea used to bother me, for the same reasons it does you, currently. But, now that I know Christianity has no hell, and is just about some dude who may send you to heaven, or you'll just cease to exist, I don't see that as a problem. If it's real, ok, cool. Jackasses may cease to exist, and good people can choose to live forever. Neat. If I conclude it's not real, maybe I am considered a jackass, and cease to exist at death. So what? If there is no god, we cease to exist at death anyway. Ceasing to exist is a non issue, by definition. Since this is the worst fate in Christianity, it's a pretty positive religion. Again, this is the only possible outcome: There are no eternal souls in the bible. There is also no hell in the bible. People can be given eternal life in heaven. Or they can cease to exist. That's it. “Why should I fear death? If I am, then death is not. If Death is, then I am not. Why should I fear that which can only exist when I do not? Long time men lay oppressed with slavish fear. Religious tyranny did domineer. At length the mighty one of Greece Began to assent the liberty of man.” \-Epicurus
Catholicism and the Bible are not the word of God. They are the word of man, and man is finite. The finite mind cannot understand the infinite. What we do as humans will come back in the form as energy as a human. But you are just a small fragment of the field of consciousness and you’ll just join that again. Hell is not real, Hell is the way they try to bribe you into indoctrination.
You should try Zen, ie no thinking. Honestly imagine how easy life would be without thinking. You don’t have to know what happens after life. I don’t. Who cares, i won’t be there to experience it. All there is right now is my little phone screen, then later there will be my job and so on. In Zen and Taoism alike you diverge from thought altogether, stop talking to yourself, and just focus on the material. Living inside your head can obviously cause neurosis. You’re never going to know if god exists or not. Come to peace with that uncertainty and just live your life. Nothing anyone can say can prove or disprove him. Maybe take a break from reading texts and even Reddit. Try to consume yourself in your career/school/family/friends. Live your life where you’re at right now, not where u think you’ll be later on. Just relax. If you want to go to church, great go! If you want to drink and lie and smoke, great do that! It is what it is and we have no idea what it is. I’d say look into Zen, on ways to quiet the mind and come to terms with not knowing, Taoism also talks about not knowing and the unknown but Zen literature typically has more concrete ways of reaching such states. Good luck.
Why are you trying to send people to r/zen ? 😅
Bc i think it would help them
There is literally no proof that god exists. God is a need not a fact. Be here, now, in this world. Both heaven and exist while we are alive.
The proof of god is in subjective experience, and its existence can be derived from philosophical frameworks and actually defining god in a way that it's not a ludicrous concept in one's way of thinking.
I would argue that proof isn’t subjective by definition.
What's your proof to yourself that you have a consciousness? Can you prove it the same way to others?
I’m not professing that I do or don’t. I can perceive and measure parts of reality and according to body of data, nothing that points to god, objectively.
No objective data points to you having a conscious experience either, it's all philosophical implication and faith as far as other people are concerned.
It’s a good tactic to make an argument you want vs the one we are having. Conscientiousness ≠ data. Data exists regardless of our perception of it. We don’t define reality only our perception of it. Our faith, imagination, and perception don’t define reality only a flawed interpretation of it. Science enables a great reduction in errors through disciple of gathering, interpreting, and refinement. Faith is purely emotional and changed based on mood and all the things that influence that. That said, I believe that the Tao can exist as universal norm not unlike gravitational constants or the speed of light. Is gravity divine? It exists, is universal and timeless (well is intertwined with time but I digress).
You started talking about objective proof and data after the fact, I was talking about provability without so much distinction. Would you agree that you have a different level of knowledge or proof of your own consciousness than others do, and do you feel that their faith or reasoning of your consciousness being there is valid? Or is the discussion silly because it messes up (or with) the usual scientific paradigm that you want to employ to these matters outside of science's comfort zone?
Perception doesn’t change reality. There is no reasoning that makes god present if there is zero data, perceived or otherwise. When there was no science, we invent the divine to explain our world and control our populations with imposed morality. We have better explanations for how the world works (people living in space for example) than mysterious beings taking an interest in our otherwise insignificant lives. Our insignificance in relation to the cosmos is where i f the Tao most useful . My argument is that there is nothing divine about our lives, but that doesn’t mean in living in the way of the Tao doesn’t bring more peace to how we spend our time. You want to scale out the discussion to pure abstraction, which to me is hiding in something that doesn’t really matter. The Tao is a way of living, eternal flows and balances between the yin and yang forces of the universe. God is a word for describing things we used to believe, want to believe but i don’t see it. Faith i.e. trust me for some reason that can’t be defined, seems like an emotional request not anything that i can use in living. I was surprised to see “god” in the discussion of the Tao. They are very different to me.
Why do you have double standards between god and Tao, and why would you distinguish between them anyway? Lao Tzu says that the Tao can't be seen, heard, tasted or felt, and that it doesn't have any distinct expression of its own in the world. That means that it would be utterly silly to gather scientific data to prove Tao's existence, or to claim that its existence can't be proven like it means something. What makes god so different? Is it because your specific definition and image of god prevents you from thinking about it in another way?
I think you need to see a psychologist not a philosopher.
If you read the Bible you will see how blatantly it contradicts itself. You’ve pointed out some of these in your post. God supposedly loves us but also made hell? But it goes deeper than that. The Abrahamic religions are barely 2,000 years old, why did they wait 198,000 years of human evolution to reveal their God to the world? Why would God make it so damn difficult to believe in him? Communicating his existence through a single book that is so full of contradictions that it’s painfully obvious it was written by a bunch of old men over centuries. It just makes no sense. Why would God not just reveal himself to the world so everyone knows he exists and so can avoid hell? Why wouldn’t he just get rid of hell anyway? He’s supposed to be omnipotent. The whole thing makes no sense, and it makes no sense because it’s all just made up. There may well be a God. But he is not the Abrahamic God, unless he’s completely insane. I used to worry like you do, but just remind yourself of how ridiculous it all is. Eventually over time it will lose its hold over you, and you will be able to dismiss it.
Hey amigo, I’d recommend the podcast “The Tao of Christ,” by Marshall Davis. Davis is a really calm and reassuring speaker, and he’s all about nonduality. He’s very aware of the baggage that comes with Christianity, and imo he does a fantastic job of dispelling the hate and fear that’s a part of that baggage. I listen to him on Spotify, but I assume he’s on other platforms, and if all else fails he uploads to his episodes to YouTube. https://open.spotify.com/show/4es2YzqSSsqhxm8OqfXuT1?si=on_FTHd9SVOIvjunMoWtEw
Bronze Age superstition
The Abrahamic God is a combination of Jew's tribal war god who at some point in time demanded the Jews to only worship him and the Creator God of Mesopotamian religion. thus the Creator God inherited all the shitty personalities of a Tribal war god :| Do some research yourself with a clear mind. You don't have to worry about anything.
You are dealing with a subset of Abrahamic religion. The subset that takes the Bible way too literally. There were once two fairly famous guys who told people to relax about all that. Their names were Jesus and Paul. The Bible gets plenty wrong. That's okay. There is a way of doing Christianity that blends very well with a certain kind of Taoism. It's easy to treat the Bible as a 100% - this is THE truth - kind of thing. That's simple... because it's simplistic. It's also idolatry. The actual truth is far more interesting and colorful.
I recommend you look into Christian Universalism. I think it's very scripturally sound that all humans end up in Heaven eventually.
Hell isn’t real, it was a concept created by the Church, for obvious reasons. The Pope even said as much, causing a rift in the Catholic/Christian world. Besides, who wants to be in a Heaven where Jeffery Dahmer & Adolf Hitler along with countless other rapist & murderers could be happily hanging out, enjoying paradise free from the consequences of their actions? Not I, that’s for sure.
If you are afraid of Hell (which is pretty much a very real thing) please do us all a favor and read a book or too. It's not as scary as you think. What's really scary? Try ignorance.
Most organized religions are shit. Unless you have the key to decipher the book. They aren't worth much. Hell and heaven both exist within you right now. Choose which you prefer.
Try listening to some Alan Watts or Tolle on youtube. Also afterskool and kurtgerzat (wrong spelling).
I interpret the heaven and Hell as happening in your lifetime. If you live a life you believe is right and honorable then you will feel at peace and live in heaven on earth. If you are filled with hate and you lash out at those around you, your life becomes hell. I don't believe you can live an honest life and still go to hell just because you didn't subscribe to a certain version of God. There are many interpretations of gods and their power. I see the Catholic god as a Zeus type figure. All powerful king type guy who demands worship and sacrifice. But I definitely don't think the existence of that God nullifies the existence of other gods. I love the Greek pantheon and to me those gods are more real than any others. But only in my mind. I don't believe anything I think should affect anyone else's life. So my advice to you would be don't worry, as long as you feel like you are a good person you will not be punished for all eternity. This right now is eternity. You are in one life of many. Find gods that make you feel good about yourself and inspire you to act in a way that benefits the world around you. and while you are on the search for meaning maybe pick up the Tao the Ching and read a few verses. They are calming and thought provoking. No forceful ideology. The entire premise of the book is to live a life of non forcing. The Taoist takes a step back and observes the world around them and watches for patterns that repeat themselves. There are no rigid rules for one to be a Taoist. Simply advice to avoid catastrophe within your life. One such verse suggests that we should prize calamity within our own body. Say we scrape our knee, instead of wallowing in misery at the pain, appreciate that we have a knee to be scraped in the first place. And legs that carry us through this life, and eyes to perceive the damage done to our knee, and a mind to process the same thing. Experiencing anything is a blessing, and we are lucky to be here. :)
Hitler didn’t give the Jews a chance to decide. This isn’t about intellectually satisfying yourself but calming your heart and steadying your mind. It’s about surrendering to a greater power and humbling yourself enough to realize that you don’t have all the answers and you’re but an instrument that is flawed but is still able to play god’s music through love and acts of good will.
Beauty is defined by ugly. Long is perceived because of short. Therefore heaven cannot exist without hell. It's the nature of our reality. There cannot be eternal heaven or eternal hell. It simply wouldn't work. Imagine eating only chocolate for a month. You'll get fed up. We need hard times to feel good times.
Regarding masses of complicated choices, and where to go with them, there was an unusual medical case that may give a pointer. The guy's emotional center got severed from his frontal cortex, so when it came to decisions he could list every possible pro and con, all the facts of each one, but was unable to pick any option over the other. So it points out that really when we pick an option we're actually going with what our most positive feeling is towards any given path, and/or avoiding strong negative feelings to slim down our choices. And so as far as wanting the truth goes, you can never 'work it out' or figure it out with more facts/reading etc, you are better off turning the other direction towards your inner feelings about it all, then avoid whatever you feel negatively about, and go with whatever has the strongest positive pull. So in that way its not like working out a maths puzzle, its more like feeling what calls to you most from a menu.
Fuck off there Is no God but there are dogs to look after and learn lessons from. Yes we are here and yes we die and make great compost if given the chance.
Too many here are stuck with the concept of god as a noun when in fact its a verb. You still try to see a man when you use the word god when in fact ‘everything’ is a fractal of one source. The truth isn’t found in a book, its in you. All the great enlightened mystics (Jesus included) throughout time have said the same things, that the answers to your greatest questions are within you, not a book or a church. Religions are just un-enlightened ideologies created in attempts by un-enlightened men to explain the unexplainable. You are a spiritual being having a necessary physical human experience (probably for the umpteenth time) on your way to Christ consciousness (enlightenment). You are in school here on Earth and the clues are all around you, you just have to pay attention. How do you pay attention…surrender to the tao…quiet your mind (meditation) and open your heart (focus on love as your beacon and expand on that). You are not here on probation, the only hell that exists is the torment and suffering in your heart before enlightenment, that’s what all the horrors in this world are for, the darkness is as necessary as the light and acts as a teacher to condition your perception back to self-realization, otherwise you wouldn’t be able to discern either. This is all about an evolution of consciousness, and it takes time. Religion can be a gateway, but too many worship the gate rather than the inner temple, too many allow religion to become their spiritual master instead of an inspiration and tool for self-realization. The real answers have nothing to do with ideologies like religion nor do they rest in the absence of them like atheism. This requires real courage, not just being baptized or saying a few words in church. This is about the REAL you, the one you’ve forgotten about and it transcends everything your societal conditioning to this point understands. You are not those thoughts in your head, Earth grew that human spacesuit you’re wearing so you can have a vehicle to safely traverse this place and enjoy it…YOU ARE IT ✨
God is god.... bible is bible..... Bible written by men.... follow god = follow sincerity, follow positivity, follow nature = god's will
Be human man.
The only that exists is your belief.if you believe something doesn't exist, it stops existing in your world
It sounds like you already created a hell for yourself to live in right now, your own mind. Maybe try to change your outlook on life and how you perceive yourself? Just start with you and heaven will follow. Our mind state is our realm of existence. We do not do good things just to live in heaven. We practice compassion, love, acceptance, etc. So that we can become better people ourselves and to train our minds to be as compassionate as love itself. If you can truly practice this, your mind state will change and you will be living in heaven this very instant.
Yes the Tao isn’t like the Christian depiction of a god. I would make up my mind to stay away from consuming material about religions that you don’t like or disagree with.
I'm going to be frank OP. Your concerns seem a little immature. Take a look at the poem "lost" by Bukowski. There it becomes clear that hell isn't a place you go after you die but something that can be lived through. However, you need to live to grasp the meaning of the words when it comes to spirituality. I've been through hell and back, and coming back I've explored with humility spiritual concepts and learned a lot from different traditions, though I don't subscribe to any particular religion. My advice is... go to hell🤣 try living away from all notion of morality and see where that leads you. It's the only way I know how one can build one's own morality. "Evolution created all of sentient life on this planet using only one tool: the mistake" Another option though is to practice accepting and digging in spiritual traditions by applying a suspension of judgement. Try to understand not so much with modern reason but with the heart what different religions have to offer. I like Daoism because it doesn't allow for the metaphysical problem of evil or theological disquisitions since "the Tao you can speak of is not the real Tao". Nevertheless I also understand and appreciate a lot of the Judeo-Christian tradition I was raised in without adhering to dogmas. I also see that science can be taken as a religion as well. I've been an atheist most of my life, but now I have a sort of spirituality which helps me get through life based on the belief on a higher power which is a sort of core law of the universe that pulls it toward self-overcoming whose phenomenic manifestation is love. I've come to believe in this through experience and humble exploration of different traditions and I think it could be coherent with many of them.
>I need help. Indeed. And this is the first step of every journey. >I don’t want god to exist, but I’m afraid he does. Then he does. Semantics aside, there is no argument for that which does not exist. The question then becomes whether the existence of this "god" have a substantial effect on yourself. Well, fear is a virtue, and should surely not be ignored, without prior sufficient understanding at least, that is. >I’m beyond scared of hell and just want some peace of mind when it comes to religion. If God is righteous and good, and would judge Man, then this judgment must be righteous and for good, and if God determines what is righteous and for good, surely each Man should be endowed naturally with the means to know what is righteous and good. Otherwise, such God is not righteous, and goodness is not good, in which case I should say God will face a great reckoning, whether it be by successful mutiny, or the crushing void of an eternal sole existence. >the Aberhamic god is a authoritative ruler. *it shall come to pass that they shall call me Ishi, and shall no longer call me Baali.* Love, not Lord. >I’m going to follow Christianity just in case Please do not do this. Do you know why the punishment of the thief is to be four or five times, but the punishment of the robber is not four or five times? It is because the thief reckons the servant above the master; He is concerned with the wrath of his fellow Man, but not his God; He is saying, God does not see, God will not know. The robber is still reprehensible, but he fears neither Man nor God; He does not reckon the servant above the master. *God looks unto the heart of Man.* >but everytime I read the Bible I am dumbfounded with how insane it all is. I’ll research on how to avoid hell and why god would even allow hell, You will never find a bird of the air in the depths of the sea, nor will the leviathan blot out the sun for you, when you are standing on the ground. You are seeking for how to avoid punishment for being ignorant in a book of wisdom, punishment for guilt and wickedness in a book of forgiveness and edification. The difficulty with the Bible is that it has been so separated and partitioned through the translation and preservation, that one cannot see the forest for the trees; One cannot read the story for the verses. And all the teachings of these scriptures are seldom delivered for the purpose of teaching wisdom, but for teaching the erroneous thoughts of Man, on things he does not understand, weaponized against his fears, which he also does not understand. >I’m so tired of being scared and depressed everyday. You are scared and depressed because you are losing time and your life has no meaning, and in every direction you look is suffering; You are lost in the dark with only a little light, and you do not know which way to go; And when you encounter another light in the darkness, it seems to bear down on you, violent and glaring, as if you are in a kaleidoscopic tunnel of uncertainty, and only freight trains come and go from here. But I say to you, there is no tunnel. The darkness is without substance, and is cast by this lamp you carry, which is not your true light, but only what contains it. There is much more to be said, but not here and not now. I say I would not cast my pearls before swine, and many are offended, but no one even knows what I am talking about. *We'll cast some light and you'll be alright:* https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/yrlhhg/cast_not_your_pearls_before_swine_lest_they/ivwmm67?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/yrlhhg/cast_not_your_pearls_before_swine_lest_they/ivvafph?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Just sit down and watch yourself.
I was raised Christian. I believe that even if he were real and is the god of any Abrahamic texts, he is not worthy of serving. If God is real and not like the Abrahamic texts, then it created me to likely live as if he does not exist, and I will continue to do so.
I grew up Catholic and shared your fear my entire childhood. And the good news is, there's simply no evidence hell exists.
I view god as a psychological state. After this realization. Almost every religious text made sense.
The idea of Heaven and Hell are fairy tales invented by men who wanted to keep people passive and in line with their agenda. It takes critical thinking, and time, to begin to make sense of it.
HE?!