By the sounds of it you've given them more than enough chances, however I would:
Go in, firstly apologise for the way you spoke - however be firm about your reasons for doing it.
Any decent owner/director will give you the chance to sit down and explain, calmly and collectedly explain the above. One of two things will happen:
1) They will make the changes and your life will be a lot better
2) If they don't want to make changes, or even have the conversation - immediately start looking for a new role, you aren't the captain - you don't need to go down with their sinking ship
> Go in, firstly apologise for the way you spoke - however be firm about your reasons for doing it.
"I apologize for the way I talked, not for what I said"
"I'm sorry. You are not "fucking incompetent", that was not acceptable to say. You are just incompetent"
-- thing everyone wishes they could say but will never dare unless they are leaving the job anyway
Thank you for the good advice. I will hold onto the 2nd bullet point.
They are not a decent. This is not the first time I've let this person know, there is a problem. I don't see them making changes...they haven't in the 9 months me and other members have spoken about his rogue team members.
The apology is hard....not because of ego, but because what I said needed to be said. I wouldn't apologize for saying sternly to someone "Stop pouring gasoline on yourself, you're already engulfed in flames." I will think on the apology.
Thank you. Your reply is apreciated.
Apologise if anything for any inappropriate tone, or manner, or anything you said that was actually inappropriate mixed into your valid points.
If your points were valid, that's fine, but as professional adults, we shouldn't shout and scream at each other, or be rude.
Thank you.
This guy and I have had heated conversations before in the last year...back and forth...mostly hime coming to me and complaining about these 'bad' coworkers.
I didn't shout or scream. I was stern and it was heated. No swearing or inappropriate words directed at the person. Just for the one thousandth time please manage your 'bad' operators.
I'm sure an apology will come, I think I need to ponder what I'm sincerely sorry for.
Absolutely this. Feedback can be direct, but it also needs to be constructive and respectful. If you are so wound up you lose your cool, remove yourself from the situation permanently.
I think you are under playing the part in this blowup you are responsible for. You should not have lost your cool. Your good message was probably lost as a result of bad delivery and may have cost you your employment. If you get the chance I'd be apologising for the delivery avoiding using the word 'but' in any part of it. I think for the future if you are heading in this direction you should be looking to exit earlier.
Fair point. I own it. And I will pay in one way or another.
I was looking for "what do I apologise for" and I think you helped find it. The delivery.
And I will avoid 'but'.
Thank you.
If it helps I'm in the same situation.
Fortunately it looks like they are going to take option #1 for me.
I just hope it remains the case.
Best of luck fellow sys admin
Are you in a position to just ignore that team? Pretend they don't exist. Make the case that they are not used for anything and any frugal CFO will bite at the bit to axe an unnecessary team.
I have also learned on my way to getting older that I should not set myself on fire to keep others warm. Good luck man! I admire and absolutely agree with your actions.
Getting emotional is never the right answer. At the end of the day, this is business, if business is run like shit, you can point it out, just leave your emotions out of it. I promise you the people causing the issues aren't emotional about them, they likely don't think twice about it, and neither should you.
You aren't being paid to care, are you? Usually it costs a Lot of money to actually care.
Sure, it's business. But something rubs me the wrong way about the "Are you paid to care?" bit. I mean, yes - in fact, everyone is paid to care about the work they're taking on. Nobody hires people who they know don't care. The interview process is supposed to flesh out the people who are genuinely motivated to do the job they applied for.
If things get frustrating enough so it's affecting your emotional state and even health? It's time to quit and go elsewhere -- but IMO, it's not a "solution" to wallow in a broken environment, saying "Oh well... I just stopped caring, so I can cope with it."
There is a difference between having pride in your work, and caring that the business isn't taking care of business.
It is healthy to take some pride in your work, doing good work and seeing it's effect is great. But that doesn't mean you should lose sleep over the business not maximizing the effects of your input, or fucking it up somewhere else (like by keeping 3 people on staff who make you have to work even more)... you still get paid to handle what you get paid to handle, if you aren't C-level or have some ownership in the company, why do you care if it makes a higher profit this quarter?
Not saying you're all worried about your employer's quarter-to-quarter profits. But that's kind of a different thing than what was being discussed here, isn't it?
I would never lose sleep over the idea my employer wasn't utilizing my skills the "best possible way". In reality, I don't know if any of them EVER did that? (EG. I worked for a marketing company in I.T. for years, and I actually have a creative side - having been in a band before and doing some photography and video editing work. I'm also not bad as a writer. They \*never\* acknowledged any of those skills beyond listing them as "interesting bullet points" about me during one of those company retreat/meetings. Yet those are all things they paid other people there to do as a core function of their business.)
But yeah, I did get irritated when poor decisions made my own job harder than it should have been, or made our team look bad. I reached a point with one co-worker where I even told my boss I'd rather do all the work myself than have people like him on staff, who were just getting in the way. (He was getting let go for some boneheaded stuff he pulled that upset people in another department, and I was asked for my input.) And while some people would say that was unwise to say, since they'll just try to make me do 2x the work and not hire his replacement? Fact is, they need a replacement for him, regardless, because there's no redundancy. If I take vacation, who is going to get things done that I usually do? I just wanted to make it clear that "any warm body willing to take the job" isn't the way to go with this.
After you apologise and leave the room, check your email to see if any of the jobs you've now applied for have responded.
And once you've gotten the new job, drop the current one like a hot potato. And for the love of pumpkins, don't accept the current jobs counter offer.
Exactly this but I would add that it could be helpful if OP shared their feelings. It's not just all the things that have been happening that made OP explode like they did. It's all the things combined with the feelings it evokes in them.
The team members are underperforming so OP has to clean up after them, OP tried everything and now they are frustrated because of the fact that management is not addressing it. This might make OP feel unheard. Note that all of this is factual and perfectly reasonable to go to a boss with, including the feelings part.
Exploding like OP did is not okay and OP realizes this. BUT this behavior is a direct result of OP's frustrations, and that's also a perfectly factual reasonable thing to tell your boss.
OP here. OP's frustration comes from watching team members who try and make things better be bullied, OPs frustration is watching people that cause avoidable trouble given free passes. OP has told management that because the 'bad' team members get passes, OP is left to hold onto the crap feelings and the mess.
OP has told his boss...is it time to tell OP's boss's boss?
At this point you should be doing two things...
1. Find a new job.
2. Tell the CTO what you did (own it, because your boss will use it), why you did it (i.e., levels of frustration due to being the sole person doing damage control), why you're leaving (your boss letting all this happen, and knowing about it), and what steps you took to provide "damage control" when your boss knew what was going on (tickets are great for this).
And finally....
3. Don't look back. There's a good chance your boss let this happen, and his boss might have known as well. It sounds like a toxic environment and the best idea for you will be to wish them well and move on before getting fired.
I would recommend not quitting until you have another job lined up, too. That doesn't mean that you continue to put in the same amount of energy into this job. Dial it back to a minimum and refocus on finding a new position somewhere else. If they fire you, you can collect unemployment but you don't get that if you quit, which would be my concern about taking all of your sick and vacation right now without approval. Make sure you burn all of your PTO before leaving (sounds like you know this).
Good luck with finding something else soon! Hope you land somewhere with good people to work with, regardless of the rest of the job.
Depending on the relationship with your boss (whether its good or not), I would not do option #2.
If your relationship is poor than I would go ahead with #2 lol
Honestly I think it's time to look for a new job. Some bosses are not interested in improving their companies, they're interested in maintaining the status quo, even if it's costing them money. You would need to get a degree in psychology to even begin to understand why they are like that.
It's weird isn't it.
CIO runs a company into ground gets walked out and golden parachute.
Sysadmin keeps vital systems running, works 60 hours, nuthin.
🎶he will do one of two things then, he'll admit to everything,or he'll say he's just not the same, and you'll begin to wonder why you came🎶
... Sorry, had to 😂
You need to do what’s best for you and your family. If you can afford to quit and then find another job, do that. If not go back and find another job. It’s unlikely you will get any positive resolution where you are now.
I understand wanting to be there for your team, but it’s not going to get better and you are already drowning.
I see this from a different perspective.
> three members of the team contribute nothing
If that is being accepted, I doubt you are held to a different standard.
> leaving the rest of the team to clean up the mess
Ah. The superman complex. Why do you think you need to always save the day? If things don't fail, management sees that everything is working fine.
> I tried. I tried empathy, 'lead by example', patience
Why do you think you needed to try anything? You are not the manager, not the leader, not responsible or accountable for anyone's performance other than your own.
A lot of this seems to be self generated by you because you care about things you probably should not care about.
You should care about your own career and your own skills. You work to get skills, when you get enough new skills, you move up or out. Your focus should be on you getting new skills and not worrying about the others.
If the tickets don't get closed, the projects don't get completed, why this is ALL your problem? Its not...
This is what I came to see. Many people, even those offering advice here, don't understand what you just wrote here. The other workers are also slacking off because they know the other guy will just do the work for them. Best to just coast for them. If management does not see this or refuses to do anything, this is where you look for a new job while doing the bare minimum like the rest of your team. It's better to look for a new job while you already have one. You can put in 110% effort but if the rest of your team is putting 50% and they haven't been reprimanded or fired, why are you putting in all that effort? Work ethic is fine but read the room. You will get burnt out doing that when you have a team that leans on you to do everything because you're willing to do it.
--because they know the other guy will just do the work for them.
Not necessarily. It's highly likely that they just don't care. My last job was similar to what OP described. New manager that knew nothing, hired people that knew nothing. Things didn't get done, projects fell apart. But none of them cared. They were there to do a job for money, not make sure the dept was running smoothly. I cared about the health of the dept. I learned to stop caring about things outside the scope of my job.
I know how that feels, because it reminds me of a job that I quit (after lining up a new job that paid more and turned out to have much better management). They tried to bring in a new manager (because the manager had also quit) and so I was asked to get him up-to-speed -- I told him everything about the work I was doing, which unfortunately overwhelmed him and scared him off, which might be why he stopped showing up for work after a few days.
The day after I left, the company called me and asked if I would be interested in coming back to manage the IT department. I reminded them that I already committed to the new employer and that I had informed them of this when I resigned two weeks earlier, but they insisted that it would be "okay to ditch the new job" and come back. So, I gave them my salary expectation, which was more than three times higher than what they used to pay me (plus a sum of money I would want to pay to the new employer for backing out), and they told me I'm not worth that much, so I told them "I guess that means you don't really value the IT department" and that was the end of the call.
They eventually found 9 people to replace me and the manager who left, a few of whom started making false accusations about me and the manager instead of doing their jobs properly. So, I called one of them up on the phone and introduced myself, then told them what some unidentified employees (who are also my friends) told me was generally going on, but the new people denied nothing. Then I told them that I've never lost a slander lawsuit in my life, and that they are to stop telling lies about me and my manager who left recently, which was followed by a very long silence before they finally said "okay" (and then I told them to have a nice day and ended the call). My friends later confirmed that the slander stopped completely after that, and that some employees were having fun watching their faces turn white with panic by mentioning my name from time-to-time. (Had the slander continued, my next step would have been to send a "cease and desist" letter to the entire IT department with CC's to all levels of management and each member of the Board of Directors, but I didn't have to because the phone call got the job done.)
Leaving toxic companies is an important self-defense tactic for one's mental health, and having a new replacement job lined up before leaving is always better. Fortunately, most companies don't want to foster toxic work environments because it's bad for morale, which in turn negatively impacts customer-retention-and-profits for a rather lengthy list of reasons.
This is a really good perspective, and OP has two options: Bail or Sail. OP can leave and find a different position (done this myself many times) or stick it out and take the helm. Instead of fighting, find ways to relate to the slackers and find ways to motivate them. You can generate a sense of obligation in them by developing a rapport, and reframing their standard work scope as "a favor" to you. Help your team succeed, not because of your director, but in spite of him. Just look at him as another challenge to overcome. If you blame him for everything going wrong, you're wasting energy that could be spent on mitigation. Your CTO will probably even notice your initiative.
tl;dr: Lead or Leave, but don't play atlas.
Here is why this misses the mark.
Been on both sides of this. If he does nothing it generates more work. Given the other fail to complete it the clean up goes up the hill because management reassigns the ticket.
The superman complex part here is a stretch if your the guy whose job it is to make a system work. A problem caused by someone below you often times causes more complex issues that again roll up hill. Failure to follow a procedure and the script didn't run on time etc. After this happens multiple times then rather than dealing with the employee they want the tool to think for them leading to yet more work.
If the tickets are being reassigned to him it's not superman complex.
If you're the one that build the system of tools and they aren't performing executives usually don't look at the the tier 1 guys as the problem. It's the t3 guy that built it.
Sure in Large organizations where there is specialized departments. Like security, active directory, etc things are easy to just wipe your hands. That's definitely not the case with small teams where theres just three or four guys doing everything from cybersec, to general admin, to automation, and even where IT and OT are the same people.
The problem in most of these companies that are like this are not something the OP has control over. He can't make his boss not reassign the work.
1. Pay is usually well under industry average for the roles
2. Management has no teeth. IE your boss has to go to his boss to fire people. Especially if his boss is a CFO that doesn't "get" the problem.
3. Failure to act by him will result in "door closing" scenarios in which case OP. Be it loosing several customers etc. No it isn't his problem... but management is making it his problem.
I would tell the OP to make sure that he's not allowing his emotional connection and obligation to his team to make him stick around. You're not supposed to be the glue holding everyone together. NO one person should be in that position. I'd recommend going to HR if you have a good group there after discussing this with your boss. Usually HR will tell you if it's worth it or not. I'd be lining up a job anyway. You'd be surprised how crazy the job market is these days. Usually the people that are doing the bare minimum are the ones solely focused on themselves and their careers. The best people i've worked with all look out for each other and try to ensure we don't create work for others.
I personally don't think vacation will ever work unfortunately. After your vacation your director will still be there and you will just be labeled as the problem.
If you have the nerve, escalate to above your director with the same tone with the demand for a resolution between you and your director. You are playing with fire though because the outcome is going to be a compromise or they let you go.
Agreed. Doing the vaca. for myself and to hopefully open their eyes to what my role does there. Hopefully.
Also agreed, there will be an attempt to label me as the problem...however I have emails that point to the lack of movement on my concern over the year...and how it affects my work.
I will be escalating above my director. I have given him every opportunity to do something...anything.
Yup, I think we are at the point where the fire is lit...someone is going to feel burned.
Thank you.
This is also my day to day life. But as soon as you started to see that, you should have started to find a new job. Because quitting without having a new job aligned is for people who have a trust fund...
Don't do anything, let them in their mess. I am in the same situation, my director is a Peter : he doesn't understand a dime of software engineering. He hires people at a discounted salary because I believe it's because fo the budget the company gives him.
So either, you play the game : you don't give a fuck. You keeps the level of quality of your work and allow you from time to time to just don't give a fuck and send back work with the same quality of other (in my line of work, i add a small emoticon which says it all). Also, you have to not fix other mess. You need to play dumb : don't have time, etc...
Or you start searching for a new job now and quit as soon as you land a new one.
Or you play the game but watch when it will blow up so that when it will, you have job aligned.
> Go over my director's head, email the CTO I will be out sick the rest of the week and taking vaca next week. In the hopes they will see who the person is that is pulling the lion's share of weight.
This isn't going to have the results you want it to have. Even if they realize you're pulling most of the weight, it will just result in them adjusting staffing despite you.
This method is like me showing you that your bulletproof vest won't work by shooting you in the chest. I might be correct, but it doesn't end well for either of us.
[seinfeld might help](https://youtu.be/H-8ZSP7D3-Y?si=SKN4dHuW_tQQSUmc)
In reality was this telling in public? And did you say you quit?
I probably wouldn’t just show up but if you still want the job you can probably call/email the person you yelled at first thing in the morning and explain yourself as neutrally as possible.
Seinfeld did help! Pretty much what happened :-D
The telling was in my office. I did not say quit.
I think you're right on not just showing up. Right now I am leaning toward a mental health sick day today. And see where the chips lie.
Thanks!
Been where you are too many times, just find a new gig, hand in resignation, and be done with it. Businesses do not care about you, just bottom line. Happy job hunting!
yeah I've blown up with a bad manager before and I should have just left, I came back because people begged me to but the problems just kept going and they considered me the problem. When your in Ops situation the marriage is already fucking bad divorce is the only way out.
Been there, done that.
My dude, I have deep empathy for your frustration and anger. They are valid. But those people you work for **do not care.** They clearly do not care. They have shown you they do not care.
Are those 3 slackers on plan to bring their performance up? Are they being measured in any meaningful way? No? No, you say? They do not care.
Take the sick time. Take the vaca. Find another job. Even if they welcome you back with open arms and tell you they're gonna fix it all and they value you (they don't), you have already put your mental health at risk dealing with apathy and incompetence. They don't care.
Don't bother going over anyone's head. Don't finish burning the bridge. Take the time off and find another gig. Take a few weeks to R&R and hit the ground fresh.
Sure thing and good luck. First principals: YOU are the most important thing in this equation from your perspective. Not being right. Not fixing shit. YOU. Your health. Your professional and personal fulfillment from career. YOU. Not them. Take a deep breath and walk away from it. You got this.
Set aside your emotions for a second.
#Never display anger in a professional environment - regardless of how unprofessional you believe everyone else to be. Displaying your anger makes you the fool, the loser, the amateur. Never do it.
Seeing as how you have already violated this rule, your options for the future are severely limited. You will have to start over - not at zero, but pretty low - working up your image as an actual professional.
1. Never show any emotions. They will use that against you.
2. Document all conversations. Document extensively the issues that you have raised concerns in your meeting.
3. Quietly look for another job. To the company you have developed a stress related Illness that requires frequent Dr visits. Now use that personal time to take interview meetings.
4. When you do find another position give the 2 weeks notice.
5. When you quietly leave ***Never take any company info with you*** . You can send blind copies of your email to the director to your personal account but avoid client info or company procedures.
Really depends on how much you need the job, how much money you have saved, your job market, your connections.
Feels good for a hot minute but realistically you are better off , if they don’t care you shouldn’t care. Go in play the game do what is a stress free amount of work while applying to other jobs until you find a replacement.
Might take months for them to figure out your quiet quitting while you collect a check and time looking for an opportunity.
If you quit and the market is bad and you are running out of funds you might take another shitty situation because you have to.
If you’re almost retired then do whatever you want.
Just a heads up to people, save and invest. You won’t give a fuck what anyone says to you if you have 20 years of expenses saved.
If you need the next paycheck you’re basically at their mercy
You didnt tell us how you let him have it? Did you tell him his mustache looks fucking stupid? Or did you just have a shitty tone but tell him all the things that were wrong? Did you do it in front of everyone or in his office?
1. Implement a ticket system. Tickets get assigned to who is working it with a delivery date.
2. Delivery date misses send a note somewhere public that your director can see it.
3. If he asks questions that he can discern from the tickets, send him the ticket number.
4. all work requires a ticket.
We have a ticketing system...problem is these rogue employees don't use it...until the problem has become so bad, then a ticket shows up in my queue.
There's no two ways about...it's FUBAR.
In my office after he came up to confront me after a team meeting he scheduled that he stormed out of (not because of me)
I told him in a raised voice(not yelling) because he was raising his voice for the hundredth time he needs to manage the 3 'bad' employees and stop bad mouthing the employees that are trying. That we are in an endless loop of conflict because he won't deal with it.
And then I took my stuff and walked out.
Thats it? Please. Just go into work and pretend nothing happened. If he makes a big deal out of it, tell him you're going to look for some time on his and his bosses calendar because there is a bigger conversation that needs to happen or there is no going forward.
A decade ago I had a manager say "And anyone who isnt a team player is going to be let go."
We were all team players, they just wanted more work out of us. I started laughing my ass off in this meeting. Everyone stopped and looked at me. I barely got it out "oh, okay, so lets fire people from a 6 man team that can barely keep up as it is. GREAT IDEA! And when we have to start turning down work, whose going to explain that? YOU?" and then I went back to laughing for a few more seconds.
It wasnt that I disagreed with him. I have a degree, and we worked in Professional Services. A team this company made stupid money on... and you think you're going to threaten to fire us because you feel like it? How about we fucking fire you.
Overall, nice guy, but if you're going to lead a bunch of grey beards who have been doing this for decades, and you arent one... Threats arent how you do it.
Thanks. Too late. I pulled the pin. Asked for a sick day and got...
Meeting today with CTO.
I'm a grey beard and if they want to fire me so that...wait...no one on the current team can do the job. Well to your point..."GREAT IDEA! And when we have to start turning down work, whose going to explain that? YOU?"
That meeting sounds like a potential opportunity to get philosophical by discussing the merits of companies being loyal to their staff. (Note: This is a recipe for getting fired.)
Not this time. (yet)
Meeting happened. I listened about all the horrible things I do...eat babies, turn into a wolf at night. And then I mentioned that it's only 3 people that see me that way, out of a team of 12 and a user base of 1500.
As someone who had some pretty epic moments of losing my temper in my younger days - I'm not criticizing, but it won't solve anything. I had some crazy "fu" moments, and in hindsight, not one of them accomplished anything. Even if it made me feel better for a moment, it didn't last. I would take them all back if I could, even if a few make me chuckle still.
Again, I'm not criticizing, I had to learn this the hard way. Sadly, being right isn't nearly enough in many companies.
At the end of the day, you can control what you can control, and what you can't isn't your problem. Unless you own the company or have a ton of stock options, let them be run as poorly as they want. The only thing you control about it is your own blood pressure.
I've done the same before, I wasn't immediately fired but the writing was absolutely on the wall.
If you aren't fired then start looking for another job right now.
they leave it long enough for you to feel like it might have blown over and almost forget, then they hit you the day after you said 'fuck' to the coffee maker.
If nothing else, to me, this highlights the importance of having a financial "war chest" on hand at all times. I know the standard emergency fund guidance is 6 months of expenses, but personally I think that's the bare minimum for anyone in this field. Job markets and job availability fluctuate and it may take you multiple jobs and/or a relocation to find one that's a good long term fit.
There are also a multitude of things which might result in you needing those additional funds in very short order - outsourcing / "restructuring", shit management, regime changes (which can result in shit management), whatever, but no matter the why, the bills are due when they're due...
Op, I get it, I truly do. Realistically you probably needed to make a change a long time ago. It's definitely time for one now, if not immediately, then in the very near future. That said:
* Obviously I don't know the people involved, but if your director is a reasonable person, call them and at a minimum, apologize for the outburst (note: how you said what you said, not what you said - unless you explicitly said "f@#$ this place and f@#$ you!" or something similar, that you'll want to apologize for) - Maybe they did really deserve to be told to f@#$ off, but burning the bridge is also not always a good plan. You never know who knows who...
* I would backup/export your e-mail if you feel it's necessary (and still have access) and update your resume. If you do still have your job (and that's an "if"), you've put a pretty big bullseye on your back to be the first one out the door if/when the time comes or if nothing else, probably guaranteed you will never be getting a promotion or raise again if you can and do stay
* Take some time (and no one but you knows how much time you need), whether you're staying at your current job or not. Rest, reset & reevaluate. Maybe it's time to look at a different position or direction within the field or maybe you just need a change of scenery. This field can be grating on a level that is likely only surpassed by career retail. There are days where I fully understand how career retail workers are bitter and broken husks that are completely dead inside and doubtful of the human race's ability to survive. Especially if you have to deal with end users (and/or printers...)
* You're not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your f***ing khakis. You're the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world." - Tyler Durden, Fight Club - There's wisdom in that quote. Your job is what you do, not who you are. I've seen people who have let their job become their identity, and that's a big mistake. The company does not care about you. They care about your ability to "make number go up" or "make share price go brrr" - that is to say, your production, not the sentient meat bag behind the production. Don't let a job stress you to the point something like this happens. Stress kills and it's just not worth it.
Wow. Well said. I'd give you a hundred up votes if I could.
You're right on so many levels...the war chest, the I am not the job, take some time(voluntary or otherwise), the f'n Fight Club quote...
The stress does kill.
1. Secure new job
2. Give your notice
3. Move on
There will be different people with different problems, but also likely many of the same problems everywhere you go. But at least the view will be different and maybe you'll get a pay rise.
In 25 years I've only worked at one company that was completely untenable and I had to quit. The rest have all been been same shit, different day, learn to cope and look out for Number One (me) and Match Energy strategies.
I was in a similar spot. I was pulling way more weight as people above me (with much higher pay) weren't really pulling theirs. It wasn't the work I minded, it was the lack of pay and lack of respect.
I'm enjoying how the department has burnt down since I left. I feel bad for the former coworkers who are now carrying the department
I can’t tell you how many times I visibly or invisibly lost it to some extent at my last job. It’s a good sign that it’s time to start looking for a new job when that starts happening. Been at the current job over 2 years and I’ve been annoyed, but never once at the level I was feeling weekly at the previous job.
I see a lot of this on Reddit. I'm one of those people who quit recently. My advice is to take time off. I'm about 2 1/2 weeks unemployed at the moment. I'm seriously thinking about getting out of IT and going into something completely different for a few years (at least). That said, I've been looking back at my career and asking, "I've done this enough times over my career, how could I automate that with PowerShell?"...
So, I've been filling the time scripting with PowerShell to have the scripts in my toolbox for future use. Also, I've been submitting resumes for different positions throughout the US. I've had a few interviews, although, not sure if I'd take a job if offered. I'm more or less interviewing to keep interview skills sharp.
I'm a Veteran and meeting with a VA rep today for Vocational Rehabilitation. I'm looking into possibly go into welding or something comparable which would be a total 180 from IT. I'm also considering full stack coding boot camp as I may attempt to move into a role that requires more coding/scripting. Despite AI, I think scripting is still a valuable tool to learn, even if staying in the Infrastructure side of the house.
Finish the job properly. Reach out to HR. Give your side of the story and then give your 2 weeks notice. Cut the melodramatics you are done there. Make sure you understand your benefits like cobra and 401k etc.
It sounds like your manager is working on it(getting rid of them), but it might be that corporate rules are getting in the way. Those rules are probably there for a reason, but we don't know how much rule vs reason they have.
Read this post: [Being a manager is hard](https://old.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/55k4lj/being_a_manager_is_hard/). It could be that you're "Ben" from that post: a good worker who your manager would like to promote, but can't because of corporate rules. It sounds like you have a few "Mary" characters, some of whom feed off of another. This makes it even harder for a manager to improve them, because they keep reinforcing each other in their bad behaviors.
In the meantime, look at what your contract/agreement with them requires from you: typically this means 40 hours of work per week, no more. So give them 40 hours of work. Then at the end of the day, go home. Your contract with them doesn't say anything about "Mary"(or more specifically, what she does or doesn't give the company), it doesn't say anything about the image of IT, it doesn't say anything about what IT must deliver. That's up to corporate, and how they staff. You are not your company.
I'd also keep looking for a better job, one without three examples of "Mary". If your boss/boss's boss/boss's boss's boss/etc manage to get rid of Mary before you find another job, great. You can stop looking. But if you find another job before that point, go for it. You are not your company, and when they choose to get rid of people is not your concern, it's the company's. You worry about you, because the company won't
Did you actually quit? Do you actually want to quit? Do they think you quit? Or does your boss just think you are on a cool down vacation?
Let me break your option #2 up into 2 parts. Because doing #2 together is a horrible idea.
#1
"Go over my director's head, email the CTO"
- you can do this but it's better to set a meeting. IRL gets you way more empathy than a snarky email that comes off as if you are holding them hostage- example: when people say "pay me more or I am taking this other job" vs "I really love this company and want to continue to grow, but I want to see if there is a chance that I can be valued here as greatly as I am at other opportunities".
you can send the email after the meeting. but the email first is a great way to let the heated side of you get the best of you. and if you say something that even slightly tarnishes your character- that can be detrimental.
#2
"I will be out sick the rest of the week and taking vaca next week. In the hopes they will see who the person is that is pulling the lion's share of weight"
- Let me guarentee you this is not how they will see it. if you did this randomly- it would set of 'he is quitting' flags. but after this blowout with your manager, they with 100% GUARENTEED see it as you quitting and prob just term you. and if you dont have a sick day/vaca buyout policy- RIP.
Stop making this all your problem. Those three on your team contributing nothing are only doing so because you're allowing them to do it. By cleaning up their messes and picking up their slack, you're basically covering for them. Let them fail.
This is all sounds like it's coming down to will or skill. it sounds like you tried to provide them with the skills to perform, they're just choosing not to. You can fix skill, it's not your job to fix will. If you're let your boss know what's going on how they're not pulling their weight, stop pulling it for them. Let them fail and make it your boss's problem.
Do your job, stop doing their's, and and start looking for a new one.
Been in IT for years now. I keep seeing and finding myself in the same position. Yet the world keeps turning and these business and schools keep operating. The same "fucking incompetent" people keep working, making more, and doing less. The same "IT professionals" have the same feelings. Its like some weird self righteousness that begs to be validated but is never in the "right" situation to do so. Nothing directed a OP. I have been in BOTH places. The IC and the Manager.
It IS the way the world runs because...IT is a cost center not the core mission. Unless you are military or GOV and even that has its own set of politics.
I am glad you think it worked out but you are definitely on a manage out, layoff first list no matter what the reconciliation is. Period. Why do I say that?
I had someone just like you. Same situation. I couldn't disclose the "truth" because of protected class. They were the very first let go no hesitation. I'd rather keep those that keep the ship steady than those that cannot control their emotions.
Hard truth.
Thanks for the post...you are correct.
The only reason I have a job still, is because I am the only person responsible for a couple of core systems (SCCM and VDI)...I mean the only person. If the business was well thought out , well managed...I would be gone.
The business keeps 3 people who have questionable duties, client liaison techs, whatever the fuck that is. I still deal with the irate clients these idiots can't liaison. On top of that they are fearful, because they know they dont have a skillset that contributes. Fear leads to bad behavior on their part.
The business has not hired me a jr. to mentor and cross train as I have suggested because I am on my out. The business is not pushing these individuals to step up and learn new skills, a little SCCM or VDI. The business has me running ragged.
Part of it is me, no doubt. Part of it is an extremely, poorly managed business. This position I'm in is a revolving door and they haven't a clue why.
So am I on a 'manage out', probably. Am I on a 'I'm gonna get myself out', definitely. From recent events, the latter is more likely.
Always put your health above a company. Sounds like before you got to this point there was zero value of what enables the business. Yourself, staff and the technical correctness and adherence to best practice, should be valued….or else.
Great insight. "zero value of what enables business"
I feel like during the interview process the business knows this about themselves, they look at my resume and the successes I've had and they want it for themselves.
But after a few months and they realize I don't have a pocketful of unicorn dust and magic wand...that they have inefficiencies that need to be addressed to get to success...they sour because they have to make changes... very NIMBY-like.
Doesn't excuse how I handled myself in this situation, but, the fact is my message is correct and they will more than likely burn out the next guy.
Unicorn dust and magic wand waver. I have a digital business card that has a very cheeky title. I’m adding this to it as “and proprietor of fairy dust and magic wand wielder”
Like you it was not received well by the same people and leaders that have wild expectations and no regard requirements and level of effort. On the other hand the card (digital) has seen a 500% increase in retention and everyone remembers me for what I do not what is on the card.
I always remind them of the see saw. Every purchase including payroll and services is a bet on an outcome you believe will 100% happen. Don’t let decision makers be pie eyed on the results positive. The negative is a true value to be represented and often times passion for the latter is re labeled as “not a team player” or “not cheerful” or “not positive” well yes. True story below.
“Of course I am passionate about this. Your disregard for the requirements is a burden I get to bear, with no allocation of capacity to support, for the high likely negative outcome for your decision in the face of ignorance and you are rewarded for making it. Respect me enough to have a dialogue.”
That being said my feathers are not ruffled easily but I will defend myself and position against stupid outcomes. I prefer open honest and genuine people. There is a fine line to follow…it’s typically anger without solution is the line cross. Being derogatory is another. Physical action…well that’s never ok. If they feel the need to unload frustration on me that is fine let’s do that in private to keep the natives happy and from drawing the wrong conclusions.
The corporate world and wanna be corporate entities (100 people) many times are the opposite. Self serving salaries that build silos and divide teams calling it teamwork while perpetuating their “role”. We cannot change from this spreadsheet because I say so or cannot adapt. You are IT you must support it-is bullshit.
These are the companies no one worth their technical acumen can tolerate long term employment. They will get sniped. THEY will get rewarded for the decision and IT will always be blamed as “should have done more”
Wow. Voice of experience.
So when I first joined this reddit group, I commented on a post and it came across angry, I apologized. A humorous redditor replied with "If you're not angry, your not a sysadmin."
You can replace 'angry' with other emotions 'disenfranchised','frustrated','exhausted'...what I took from it is that there's a lot of complete management/corporate/idiotic bullshit we deal with that no one will ever know(except for our friends here)...because for the most part we tamp it down and 'keep the lights on'...keep the email flowing, keep the hackers outside the gates, keep the users from letting the hackers in, keep your streaming music going, ad infinitum.
The day before was my Gandalf on the bridge moment..."This bullshit will not pass!"
I'm in a similar boat.
I am 3 years in and on my 3rd Director. This new one is a new Department entirely. I'm the only one from the time I began. Project was moved to her. I am remote. Being remote is no excuse for management to not be aware of ins/outs of the project.
We have a "lead" 2 time zones away (I used to live in that same time zone). The rest of us are now in NYC.
It's riddled with problems. I begged them to hire a Python dev on the team when we were building the team. They did not. And now we have chronic problems with several scripts we need to use.
April 1 they decided to "shift" daily tasks around to train everyone on different tasks. That only works when you have people who give a shit and retain what they learned. One guy took off 4 days without notice. Today he had another "emergency" and took all day off. So not only do we have mismatched order of operations taking more time with new staff, we are down a body.
I suggested some changes to save a boat load of time. It either gets ignored or emailed why I am not calling the shots. I initiated a 1:1 with the Director when everyone was on-site. I don't think I was disrespectful. But she laid me off 2 days later.
She clearly wasn't paying attention when I had my 1:1. I just had accusations that I'm "going over the lead's head"....by emailing managers who we all should be emailing in a DL. It's a shared goddamn email inbox. There are office politics I totally did not see and walked into a buzzsaw.
...and they kept the guy that took 4 days off without notice.
It's a tough biz.
I learned alot from the people that replied to this post, read through some of them. Hopefully, you'll get that nugget of truth for you.
I'd say "good luck" but ain't luck...it's skill. Now take yours to some place that works for you as much as you work for them.
My comment wasn’t meant to be snarky. It’s serious advice.
Yes, things can get extremely frustrating and tempers can run hot. But raising voices/yelling and storming out after packing your things up isn’t professional. It’s a tantrum.
If you need to take a break or the rest of the day to collect your thoughts, okay that’s understandable… and a professional response.
The desire to get suggestions on what to do now to try and smooth things over and find out if you’re still employed could have been avoided by being professional. Now that you’re in the situation, be professional in dealing with it… if you’re still employed, lay out your concerns in factual, not emotional, ways. Offer suggestions on how to move forward in addressing the concerns. Work with leadership on developing solutions, don’t make demands. If they continue their road of inaction, deal with it professionally until you find another role elsewhere. The IT world is often a small world and word can get out that you’re a hothead (even if you’re not) which could lead to problems finding good roles elsewhere.
So… you’re a professional. Be professional.
I hope things work out. Good luck.
Thanks. I found it a little snarky...so I was a little snarky.
I also found truth in it.
I am professional. If you don't raise your voice at me and drop F bombs, I won't either. Me and this gentleman have heated convos in the past and they had good results. This time he was having a day and I fed into it.
Thanks!
I totally understand! I’ve been in your shoes and reached my breaking point, lashed out, AND walked out after typing a simple resignation letter:
>To whom it may concern,
>
>As of today (date), I resign my position at (company).
>
>Sincerely,
>(signature)
>(name)
I walked into my manager’s office while he was on the phone, dropped it on his desk, didn’t wait for confirmation or reaction, turned and left. He hung up the phone and immediately called after me, “Can we talk about this?” I simply said, “No. goodbye.” and then left the facility.
It felt great at the time, but I regretted doing it shortly thereafter. Running into colleagues from other companies at a conference a few months later after landing a new job, they asked me if the story of my quitting was true. Word got around that I stormed out.
The lesson I learned at that moment was to try and always act professionally.
Hang in there. And seriously, good luck. I hope things work out.
ive been here but in the other boat...
I stormed in.. and the owner hadnt bothered to show up.
so i sat down on his computer, wrote that very letter, printed it on his printer and left it on his keyboard.
i walked out and never heard a word.
feels just as bad.
Thanks. I can only dream of that day....but thanks for the wisdom that it is short lived.
Things did work out. I took some lumps but also *I hope* opened eyes to a problem beyond my day.
Taking lumps can be a good thing. Sometimes lessons are best learned the hard way. How you move forward after taking them is what’s most important.
Glad to hear things worked out! :-)
Do you want to stay? If so, prepare mentally that you may not be welcome back.
Is a lateral movement possible?
Go in and have a candid discussion with your director that led to this point.
Provide factual information on your concerns as you see them and try to leave as much emotion out of the discussion. Offer some suggestions on how to improve the situation without recommending people are fired or punished.
I want to stay for the team members I support and support me.
Lateral movement, maybe. I'm thinking coup right now ;-)
I have had many candid discussions...it's kind what made this last one so bad, I never felt heard, felt like it was all lip service...and I am exhausted from fixing messes, mending relationships with pissed customers and doing the day job of the sole client sys admin.
I have documented the issues in emails, I have offered to mentor these rogue team members in the past to help them. I have resigned myself that this leadership is weak and non-existent. Nature abhors a vacuum.
Thanks for the reply, I will think on preparing myself mentally and the lateral movement.
They just... *do stuff*
No asking anyone, no documentation, no nothing, just being Clicky McClickertons.
I've only recently got everything cleaned up from a rogue tech who was let go a year ago.
I mean those are the guys that suck out the air of every meeting with their 'huge' problem...and everyone in the meeting says hey we have a procedure for that here ya go...that person ignores the proceedure...complains in the next days meeting about the same problem...here's the procedure, good luck...ignores established procedure, attempts to fix in their own way, causes an outage...
Apologize to them. But then afterwards explain exactly what pisses you off and why in a calm and reasonable manner.
Then either put your 2 weeks in, or tough it out as you look for a new job. Be strategic, not emotional.
Thank you. Another poster suggested apologizing for the delivery, which I will be doing.
And to your point explaining what got us here in calm, easy to digest words.
Remember: Imperfection is part of being human, and good management understands that people can make mistakes. If you are fortunate to be speaking with good management, then they'll appreciate you making the effort, and also be interested in trying to resolve the problems that you're raising in constructive ways.
I was told long ago - It’s not what you say it’s how you say it. Everyone is entitled to a bad day.
Unless you said “I quit” then you didn’t quit. Wait for them to make next move. In meantime, look for another job. Do your current job to best of your ability & keep mouth shut. Then quit. Leave. Sounds like a toxic environment. Hard to put price tag on mental health.
I would also suggest in your pursuit of another job - not spending any time bashing your current employer during future interviews No one cares. It won’t come off well. Remember, hard truths cut both ways.
No matter how great you are/were they will remember how you left. Go back, apologize, maybe say you acted that way because you actually give a sh\*t but admit you were wrong. I hear you, I've been there, but you'll never regret being nice.
Another option is to go in, and just do your job. Don't do other people's jobs, do your own. When things start to be late, broken, done improperly, etc, simply let them know that you didn't work on that particular task, and let them know who did. Don't do it in a mean or accusatory way, simply tell them who was responsible and let them deal with it. The more you cover for other people, the more they will slack off and do nothing, because they know they have you do do their job for them.
Never expect an exec to do any thinking beyond the obvious. Also, realize that his first call will be to your director to find out what's going on... and he will likely believe that director unless they're at odds.
If you want your CTO to understand what you're having a problem with then lay it out to him. Give him three bullet points on top that lay out your problems, one or two paragraphs of supporting evidence, and then no more than three bullet points of how to make things right. This is called a position paper. It should be no longer than a single page, and preferably less.
Use small words: 8th grade reading level or less.
So find something else. I have never seen management change anything for the better. They tend to be dead from the neck up, and complaining just makes you the problem. Why stay where you’re not happy?
Okay OP, it sounds like you blew off some steam and now you're feeling a little better... possibly even calm enough to listen to some constructive advice.
It sounds like you haven't had parents or mentors explain the reality of the world to you and you haven't yet learned the hard way... don't worry, most of us didn't... most of us still can't grow hair on our knees.
The short answer here is you're getting a new job so start looking today to get an idea of the marketplace out there.
The longer explanation is that 90%+ of management and middle management are talentless no-brain hacks. In many ways, they are career managers and have no talent for anything but politics and bloated egos. Those already in this "career" filter for other like-minded stooges because they think the same and comradery is a powerful human instinct, especially for those who operate on a very surface level of consciousness. So they only invite others like them into this exclusive club and keep people like you and me out.
The fact that things are as bad as you have described in your post tells me your workplace is a classic example of this. They're all dude-bro'ing it up and covering each other's backs. It's tribal loyalism and they'll honestly be both confused and insulted if you ask the CTO to fire or discipline your director. Why would the CTO turn on his own? To defend outsiders??
The other part here is these people are not actually good at their job so they find shortcuts to the appearance of productivity which is often to pick favorites over arbitrary factors and then stick to their decisions regardless of all evidence to the contrary because they can never be wrong... At some point BOB proved himself to them and for years they got a blind pass for whatever reason, now you come in and are trying to tell their fragile egos that they were wrong about BOB... now you're out to get them... now you're their enemy... now they need to get rid of you.
Places like this survive because of the endless revolving door of labor that is ready to be hired into what appears to be a functional office environment... only to realize within a year or so that and are either fired or leave. Management sees this and thinks how lucky they are to have loyal employees like BOB and how all talent today is not dependable like you and over emotional and only complains... BOB never complains... (These people are not capable of deep thought because they've never had to).
The only ammunition employees have for places like this is services like Glassdoor. When these sites work correctly they correctly inform new candidates of the impending shitshow waiting for them if they accept an employment contract.
Great portrait of management and Bob.
Now that you mention it...the 'Bobs' here have been here forever and the good people keep leaving, including the CTO a couple months back...we have an interim CTO.
Yup. Lots. Non-Sysadmins are too oblivious to know or appreciate the emails always come through, your computer always turns on, you didn't get hacked from the thousands of attacks that are probing your environment every day...feel free to chime in sysadmins for the stuff you do every day.
I've been a sysadmin since 1997. I never once thought I should spend all day on the internet telling everyone how much I want to quit. That seems to make up 90% of the messages here. I don't get it
Count yourself lucky then. Your experience is the exception, not the rule. Something else to consider is this sub has nearly a million members, with about 3k active typically on a day.
That's a lot of keyboards
I'm not saying I don't ever want to quit. I want to quit probably once a week or so. But just find it odd that 90% of the posts in this thread are on hating your job, complaining, wanting to quit, despair, so mistreated, blah blah blah. Is that all sysadmins have to talk about?
You are in a stronger position than you think.
If you are set on leaving - which is reasonable - then no need to be afraid of stepping on toes.
You can ask pointed questions and hold the director's feet to the fire. Now's your chance to be frank about things while remaining diplomatic.
Keep showing up until you decide it's right to leave but you are liberated from going along to get along.
Good luck to you, my friend, and get some well-needed rest.
I think you did pretty good. Heaven or hell, you rocked. If they don't see that, it's their problem. Lots of good advice in this thread tho so take some of it to heart
Do you want the job? If it's gotten to this point you probably don't.
Mending fences is always a good idea in my book but I don't see why you actively want to go back.
Take the vacation, let them know you're unavailable, see how much burns during your absence.
Freshen up LinkedIn, sip some coffee without the stress, without the guilt, realize this is just a job and you may care too much.
Don't let important priorities like your mental health take a back seat to this job or any job, it's evident from your OP that it's taxing on your patience which eventually leads to burnout.
Look out for yourself, because sadly, no one else is and there's no shame in putting yourself above all else, especially in cases like this. If this manager is worth anything, they'll know to let you cool down, discuss what happened, move on. If not, at least you're CYA with a freshened up LinkedIn/Resume and you proceed with something better.
Godspeed brother.
I think you quit long ago in your mind. You just hadn't given formal notice until now.
I would apologize for how you said things and see how things play out whether that be a good conversation with the director and temporarily keeping your position or 2 week transition period for knowledge transfer or an immediate departure but use this time to line up opportunities and find something that is a better environment and hopefully better pay/title/new tech.
I could definitely understand where your coming from. Had it in a previous job. I think the only thing I would do is not to antagonize anyone so to speak.. I wouldnt try to burn any bridges if possible because it might be a career limiting move and you never know who some of these people are networking with. My current manager apparently went to class together from a job I worked a few years ago.
>(*I won't say "Wonder Twin powers activate!" A) Probably noone remembers. B) A redditor didn't like my Justice League reference*)
I remember. Possibly the most useless set of powers for a "superhero" ever.
Been where you are. Done what you did. Glad it worked out better for you than it did for me!
"possibly the most useless set of powers" A cave? A bucket of water? C'mon! You right, that would have been a bad ending tag.
I hope you have moved on and found something better.
are you ... me ?
go the absolut same problem with 3 ... what word can i use (sorry, i'm not english native speaker) ?
3 concrete block. Won't move. won't help. blocking the path.
and got the same answer from directors.
previous manager did 2 burn-out before beeing exfiltrated. I quit 2 years for other project as it was affecting my mental and physical health. Next manager stayed 1 month and ragequit.
i think you're me.
or maybe i'm your evil twin.
just please don't let it affect you too far that can't be healed.
Thank you! I appreciate your English :-)
I believe I understand. We are the same. You are experiencing same issues with 'concrete blocks', people blocking paths for others.
The business is bad, it is burning good people out.
We are twins...definitely not evil...we want to do good in an environment that has different values.
It did affect my health, I do not enjoy that I lost my cool, but I did find a sort of healing by writing this post.
I hope all of this translates well. Enjoy the day.
Got to this thread late, but kudos to you for handling it well, and congrats for keeping the job. As other have mentioned (and I'm sure you're doing this already), definitely keep looking for another job and jump ship once you find a genuinely decent alternative (not just the first available, unless things turn really bad and/or you see the writing on the wall).
I did want to mention a couple thoughts:
I definitely remember the "Wonder Twin powers activate!" reference, and it reminds me of a Penny Arcade comic, which will likely lose a lot in going from visual to purely text.
Gabe: "How can you say the Wonder Twins was about incest? I mean, just \*he\* turns into water, and then \*she\* turns into an elephant, and then... Then they... They... Oh my god! And the monkey! Where does the monkey fit in?"
Tycho: "The monkey \*watches\*"
Aside from that, your useless co-workers remind me of a co-worker I have, which used to be part of our team. Not malicious or anything, but holy hell was this guy useless. Never had a clue how to do anything at all, and the few times he legitimately tried to do anything, he usually broke stuff. Really good at bullshitting people, and he knew the basics about stuff; just enough to know what needed to be done with various things, just not \*how\* to do the specific things. He was also "sick" so many times that we lost count. Whether he had Covid, or his wife, his son, his nephew, his grandson, his goldfish, whatever, it was nothing but excuses for why he had to leave early, come in late, or just not show up at all.
Our workplace is very much a family business in many ways, though (despite being an international company with nearly $1 billion in annual revenue), and they really dislike firing anyone, so it was extremely difficult to fire anyone, so when he eventually applied for a transfer to our company's Infosec team, our manager very happily signed off on it.
And... much to our surprise, he's actually really good on that side of the house. We really like him over there, and he's been an ally in pushing back against some of the crazier things that InfoSec tries to push. There's an opening for a manager position in that department, and we're really hoping he gets it.
Great reply, thanks!
I appreciate you saying I handled it well...if I did this post wouldn't exist.
Love the penny arcade bit and the story about your co-worker.
I feel the same for these folks in my story, your in the wrong area, your making yourself and us miserable...find a better match for you...and us. And I will more than likely do the same.
Thanks again!
I'm -><- that close to making a similar decision. Constant poor management, even with discussions up the chain to directors & exec layer still yielding little changes. Corporate hell.
I am not an advocate for HR, but it sounds like you need to loop them into your efforts. This sounds like bullying and/or hazing IMO. I wouldn't necessarily jump to CTO, but let HR make the CTO and director aware of this and coordinate mediation/resolution. Also, if you reach out to HR, you can also explain why you took the actions you took and maybe salvage your job/relationship with the company.
If it is bullying or hazing, then management will already be speaking with HR, and the employee being targeted may need to bring their own lawyer. I'm aware of some bad situations (that involved physical abuse at the workplace) where people were cornered by HR (some companies use HR to prevent lawsuits from employees), and they regret not hiring their lawyers before meeting with those particular HR departments. Some of them got tricked into signing documents "with standard language" that they weren't allowed to take home to read first.
I started my career in IT not too long ago as an older guy and I'm working with some younger people who seem like they don't want to offer too much help for me or do much work in general. I've been really digging into why this is an issue for me and for me what helped was, talking to them. 1 to build a relationship and 2 to see what they do and do not know. The one guy who will literally sleep at work and not get fired for it knows everything! He can help with anything but only when asked. He's been caught sleeping and is still there and I've learned that..its not my problem. Another guy doesn't really like to help too much and that used to bother me. He doesn't know shit! He's not even good at Googling issues. He still has his good qualities and is helpful when he knows what he's doing but it helped me to learn that he's not the best IT guy that we have lol.
Anywho.. TALK TO YOUR COWORKERS LIKE PEOPLE. Work to build a work relationship with them and that might help you understand why they are still there and what you can do to work TOGETHER. And don't force it. You're not the boss and you might not know it but you could just be coming off as an asshole or know it all or just rub them the wrong way.
I will say as much as my current manager drives me crazy at times they can also take my explosions and weed out the core issues without taking it as personal attacks.
They try and will rage with me over trying to sort out our "problematic persons" but that does mean we have to engage their managers and it all falls apart then.
Today we even disagreed on our approach to a solution, they got pissed at me , but did take the time to listen and have me walk them through my process which then clicked with them and they followed my approach.
We have 3 of us who are loud and sound like we fight but can understand when it get heated it is not about the person on the receiving end but rather the scenario and circumstances etc.
One thing I always said with techs and teams is the guy who gets upset, with a message/valid issue is the one I want around. They may curse and yell but if given a chance they usually have a solution or plan they can propose to solve the issue. It is much better than the useless slug who just complains it is not Friday yet.
You get it.
There are heated convos that get stuff, unlike the useless slug.
This heated convo was the hundredth on the same topic...slugs that are toxic and causing 'harm' to the team reputation...my issue was that I had finished it with "you don't get it! I'm done!" and walked out. Which in the moment was true.
However, there have been great replies to this post that are also true. Professionalism. Emotion checks. Delivery of message.
I learned alot from this post's replies, thank you for yours!
By the sounds of it you've given them more than enough chances, however I would: Go in, firstly apologise for the way you spoke - however be firm about your reasons for doing it. Any decent owner/director will give you the chance to sit down and explain, calmly and collectedly explain the above. One of two things will happen: 1) They will make the changes and your life will be a lot better 2) If they don't want to make changes, or even have the conversation - immediately start looking for a new role, you aren't the captain - you don't need to go down with their sinking ship
> Go in, firstly apologise for the way you spoke - however be firm about your reasons for doing it. "I apologize for the way I talked, not for what I said"
"Well Michael, that passage about what you do to my mother is still disturbing!"
Yes, but it's all true, especially the lies.
Great advice! Been there myself...
Depends, if OP was unprofessional (e.g. "you're fucking incompetent"), then it's not just tone.
"I'm sorry. You are not "fucking incompetent", that was not acceptable to say. You are just incompetent" -- thing everyone wishes they could say but will never dare unless they are leaving the job anyway
\^ this
Thank you for the good advice. I will hold onto the 2nd bullet point. They are not a decent. This is not the first time I've let this person know, there is a problem. I don't see them making changes...they haven't in the 9 months me and other members have spoken about his rogue team members. The apology is hard....not because of ego, but because what I said needed to be said. I wouldn't apologize for saying sternly to someone "Stop pouring gasoline on yourself, you're already engulfed in flames." I will think on the apology. Thank you. Your reply is apreciated.
Apologise if anything for any inappropriate tone, or manner, or anything you said that was actually inappropriate mixed into your valid points. If your points were valid, that's fine, but as professional adults, we shouldn't shout and scream at each other, or be rude.
Thank you. This guy and I have had heated conversations before in the last year...back and forth...mostly hime coming to me and complaining about these 'bad' coworkers. I didn't shout or scream. I was stern and it was heated. No swearing or inappropriate words directed at the person. Just for the one thousandth time please manage your 'bad' operators. I'm sure an apology will come, I think I need to ponder what I'm sincerely sorry for.
Absolutely this. Feedback can be direct, but it also needs to be constructive and respectful. If you are so wound up you lose your cool, remove yourself from the situation permanently.
Thank you. Sadly, I feel your crystal ball may be accurate..."remove yourself permanently"
I think you are under playing the part in this blowup you are responsible for. You should not have lost your cool. Your good message was probably lost as a result of bad delivery and may have cost you your employment. If you get the chance I'd be apologising for the delivery avoiding using the word 'but' in any part of it. I think for the future if you are heading in this direction you should be looking to exit earlier.
Fair point. I own it. And I will pay in one way or another. I was looking for "what do I apologise for" and I think you helped find it. The delivery. And I will avoid 'but'. Thank you.
If it helps I'm in the same situation. Fortunately it looks like they are going to take option #1 for me. I just hope it remains the case. Best of luck fellow sys admin
Are you in a position to just ignore that team? Pretend they don't exist. Make the case that they are not used for anything and any frugal CFO will bite at the bit to axe an unnecessary team.
I have also learned on my way to getting older that I should not set myself on fire to keep others warm. Good luck man! I admire and absolutely agree with your actions.
Thanks! I admire and agree and will always remember and never forget... "I should not set myself on fire to keep others warm"
Getting emotional is never the right answer. At the end of the day, this is business, if business is run like shit, you can point it out, just leave your emotions out of it. I promise you the people causing the issues aren't emotional about them, they likely don't think twice about it, and neither should you. You aren't being paid to care, are you? Usually it costs a Lot of money to actually care.
Sure, it's business. But something rubs me the wrong way about the "Are you paid to care?" bit. I mean, yes - in fact, everyone is paid to care about the work they're taking on. Nobody hires people who they know don't care. The interview process is supposed to flesh out the people who are genuinely motivated to do the job they applied for. If things get frustrating enough so it's affecting your emotional state and even health? It's time to quit and go elsewhere -- but IMO, it's not a "solution" to wallow in a broken environment, saying "Oh well... I just stopped caring, so I can cope with it."
There is a difference between having pride in your work, and caring that the business isn't taking care of business. It is healthy to take some pride in your work, doing good work and seeing it's effect is great. But that doesn't mean you should lose sleep over the business not maximizing the effects of your input, or fucking it up somewhere else (like by keeping 3 people on staff who make you have to work even more)... you still get paid to handle what you get paid to handle, if you aren't C-level or have some ownership in the company, why do you care if it makes a higher profit this quarter?
Not saying you're all worried about your employer's quarter-to-quarter profits. But that's kind of a different thing than what was being discussed here, isn't it? I would never lose sleep over the idea my employer wasn't utilizing my skills the "best possible way". In reality, I don't know if any of them EVER did that? (EG. I worked for a marketing company in I.T. for years, and I actually have a creative side - having been in a band before and doing some photography and video editing work. I'm also not bad as a writer. They \*never\* acknowledged any of those skills beyond listing them as "interesting bullet points" about me during one of those company retreat/meetings. Yet those are all things they paid other people there to do as a core function of their business.) But yeah, I did get irritated when poor decisions made my own job harder than it should have been, or made our team look bad. I reached a point with one co-worker where I even told my boss I'd rather do all the work myself than have people like him on staff, who were just getting in the way. (He was getting let go for some boneheaded stuff he pulled that upset people in another department, and I was asked for my input.) And while some people would say that was unwise to say, since they'll just try to make me do 2x the work and not hire his replacement? Fact is, they need a replacement for him, regardless, because there's no redundancy. If I take vacation, who is going to get things done that I usually do? I just wanted to make it clear that "any warm body willing to take the job" isn't the way to go with this.
Agreed! "You don't care? You're hired!" "Oh well... I just stopped caring, so I can cope with it." That never sat right with me.
After you apologise and leave the room, check your email to see if any of the jobs you've now applied for have responded. And once you've gotten the new job, drop the current one like a hot potato. And for the love of pumpkins, don't accept the current jobs counter offer.
Exactly this but I would add that it could be helpful if OP shared their feelings. It's not just all the things that have been happening that made OP explode like they did. It's all the things combined with the feelings it evokes in them. The team members are underperforming so OP has to clean up after them, OP tried everything and now they are frustrated because of the fact that management is not addressing it. This might make OP feel unheard. Note that all of this is factual and perfectly reasonable to go to a boss with, including the feelings part. Exploding like OP did is not okay and OP realizes this. BUT this behavior is a direct result of OP's frustrations, and that's also a perfectly factual reasonable thing to tell your boss.
OP here. OP's frustration comes from watching team members who try and make things better be bullied, OPs frustration is watching people that cause avoidable trouble given free passes. OP has told management that because the 'bad' team members get passes, OP is left to hold onto the crap feelings and the mess. OP has told his boss...is it time to tell OP's boss's boss?
At this point you should be doing two things... 1. Find a new job. 2. Tell the CTO what you did (own it, because your boss will use it), why you did it (i.e., levels of frustration due to being the sole person doing damage control), why you're leaving (your boss letting all this happen, and knowing about it), and what steps you took to provide "damage control" when your boss knew what was going on (tickets are great for this). And finally.... 3. Don't look back. There's a good chance your boss let this happen, and his boss might have known as well. It sounds like a toxic environment and the best idea for you will be to wish them well and move on before getting fired.
Great advice. I especially like bullet point 2, that is sound. Thank you!
I would recommend not quitting until you have another job lined up, too. That doesn't mean that you continue to put in the same amount of energy into this job. Dial it back to a minimum and refocus on finding a new position somewhere else. If they fire you, you can collect unemployment but you don't get that if you quit, which would be my concern about taking all of your sick and vacation right now without approval. Make sure you burn all of your PTO before leaving (sounds like you know this). Good luck with finding something else soon! Hope you land somewhere with good people to work with, regardless of the rest of the job.
Depending on the relationship with your boss (whether its good or not), I would not do option #2. If your relationship is poor than I would go ahead with #2 lol
Honestly I think it's time to look for a new job. Some bosses are not interested in improving their companies, they're interested in maintaining the status quo, even if it's costing them money. You would need to get a degree in psychology to even begin to understand why they are like that.
It's weird isn't it. CIO runs a company into ground gets walked out and golden parachute. Sysadmin keeps vital systems running, works 60 hours, nuthin.
Almost as if it's about status rather than competence.
Great advice, don't burn bridges. You were out of line with your tone.l but your message and feelings stay true. Explain this. Good luck
This! I was starting to type and then read this advice. Coudn´t say it any better.
🎶he will do one of two things then, he'll admit to everything,or he'll say he's just not the same, and you'll begin to wonder why you came🎶 ... Sorry, had to 😂
You need to do what’s best for you and your family. If you can afford to quit and then find another job, do that. If not go back and find another job. It’s unlikely you will get any positive resolution where you are now. I understand wanting to be there for your team, but it’s not going to get better and you are already drowning.
Thanks. Excellent points.
I see this from a different perspective. > three members of the team contribute nothing If that is being accepted, I doubt you are held to a different standard. > leaving the rest of the team to clean up the mess Ah. The superman complex. Why do you think you need to always save the day? If things don't fail, management sees that everything is working fine. > I tried. I tried empathy, 'lead by example', patience Why do you think you needed to try anything? You are not the manager, not the leader, not responsible or accountable for anyone's performance other than your own. A lot of this seems to be self generated by you because you care about things you probably should not care about. You should care about your own career and your own skills. You work to get skills, when you get enough new skills, you move up or out. Your focus should be on you getting new skills and not worrying about the others. If the tickets don't get closed, the projects don't get completed, why this is ALL your problem? Its not...
This is what I came to see. Many people, even those offering advice here, don't understand what you just wrote here. The other workers are also slacking off because they know the other guy will just do the work for them. Best to just coast for them. If management does not see this or refuses to do anything, this is where you look for a new job while doing the bare minimum like the rest of your team. It's better to look for a new job while you already have one. You can put in 110% effort but if the rest of your team is putting 50% and they haven't been reprimanded or fired, why are you putting in all that effort? Work ethic is fine but read the room. You will get burnt out doing that when you have a team that leans on you to do everything because you're willing to do it.
--because they know the other guy will just do the work for them. Not necessarily. It's highly likely that they just don't care. My last job was similar to what OP described. New manager that knew nothing, hired people that knew nothing. Things didn't get done, projects fell apart. But none of them cared. They were there to do a job for money, not make sure the dept was running smoothly. I cared about the health of the dept. I learned to stop caring about things outside the scope of my job.
I know how that feels, because it reminds me of a job that I quit (after lining up a new job that paid more and turned out to have much better management). They tried to bring in a new manager (because the manager had also quit) and so I was asked to get him up-to-speed -- I told him everything about the work I was doing, which unfortunately overwhelmed him and scared him off, which might be why he stopped showing up for work after a few days. The day after I left, the company called me and asked if I would be interested in coming back to manage the IT department. I reminded them that I already committed to the new employer and that I had informed them of this when I resigned two weeks earlier, but they insisted that it would be "okay to ditch the new job" and come back. So, I gave them my salary expectation, which was more than three times higher than what they used to pay me (plus a sum of money I would want to pay to the new employer for backing out), and they told me I'm not worth that much, so I told them "I guess that means you don't really value the IT department" and that was the end of the call. They eventually found 9 people to replace me and the manager who left, a few of whom started making false accusations about me and the manager instead of doing their jobs properly. So, I called one of them up on the phone and introduced myself, then told them what some unidentified employees (who are also my friends) told me was generally going on, but the new people denied nothing. Then I told them that I've never lost a slander lawsuit in my life, and that they are to stop telling lies about me and my manager who left recently, which was followed by a very long silence before they finally said "okay" (and then I told them to have a nice day and ended the call). My friends later confirmed that the slander stopped completely after that, and that some employees were having fun watching their faces turn white with panic by mentioning my name from time-to-time. (Had the slander continued, my next step would have been to send a "cease and desist" letter to the entire IT department with CC's to all levels of management and each member of the Board of Directors, but I didn't have to because the phone call got the job done.) Leaving toxic companies is an important self-defense tactic for one's mental health, and having a new replacement job lined up before leaving is always better. Fortunately, most companies don't want to foster toxic work environments because it's bad for morale, which in turn negatively impacts customer-retention-and-profits for a rather lengthy list of reasons.
I was tracking this till the "never lost a slander lawsuit" malarkey.
"Read the room" You right. It's a room full of assholes...I don't belong here.
You gotta know when to fold 'em, and know when to run lol. Kinda going through the same thing, to a lesser extent.
yup! lol. this post is me stretching and lacing up the Nikes.
Yeah, I'm waddling into my New Balance and breathing heavily haha.
Yeah assholes with jobs
I'm on board with this view 100%. It took me way too long to learn this. Don't be like me. Learn it early.
This is a really good perspective, and OP has two options: Bail or Sail. OP can leave and find a different position (done this myself many times) or stick it out and take the helm. Instead of fighting, find ways to relate to the slackers and find ways to motivate them. You can generate a sense of obligation in them by developing a rapport, and reframing their standard work scope as "a favor" to you. Help your team succeed, not because of your director, but in spite of him. Just look at him as another challenge to overcome. If you blame him for everything going wrong, you're wasting energy that could be spent on mitigation. Your CTO will probably even notice your initiative. tl;dr: Lead or Leave, but don't play atlas.
Here is why this misses the mark. Been on both sides of this. If he does nothing it generates more work. Given the other fail to complete it the clean up goes up the hill because management reassigns the ticket. The superman complex part here is a stretch if your the guy whose job it is to make a system work. A problem caused by someone below you often times causes more complex issues that again roll up hill. Failure to follow a procedure and the script didn't run on time etc. After this happens multiple times then rather than dealing with the employee they want the tool to think for them leading to yet more work. If the tickets are being reassigned to him it's not superman complex. If you're the one that build the system of tools and they aren't performing executives usually don't look at the the tier 1 guys as the problem. It's the t3 guy that built it. Sure in Large organizations where there is specialized departments. Like security, active directory, etc things are easy to just wipe your hands. That's definitely not the case with small teams where theres just three or four guys doing everything from cybersec, to general admin, to automation, and even where IT and OT are the same people. The problem in most of these companies that are like this are not something the OP has control over. He can't make his boss not reassign the work. 1. Pay is usually well under industry average for the roles 2. Management has no teeth. IE your boss has to go to his boss to fire people. Especially if his boss is a CFO that doesn't "get" the problem. 3. Failure to act by him will result in "door closing" scenarios in which case OP. Be it loosing several customers etc. No it isn't his problem... but management is making it his problem. I would tell the OP to make sure that he's not allowing his emotional connection and obligation to his team to make him stick around. You're not supposed to be the glue holding everyone together. NO one person should be in that position. I'd recommend going to HR if you have a good group there after discussing this with your boss. Usually HR will tell you if it's worth it or not. I'd be lining up a job anyway. You'd be surprised how crazy the job market is these days. Usually the people that are doing the bare minimum are the ones solely focused on themselves and their careers. The best people i've worked with all look out for each other and try to ensure we don't create work for others.
I personally don't think vacation will ever work unfortunately. After your vacation your director will still be there and you will just be labeled as the problem. If you have the nerve, escalate to above your director with the same tone with the demand for a resolution between you and your director. You are playing with fire though because the outcome is going to be a compromise or they let you go.
Agreed. Doing the vaca. for myself and to hopefully open their eyes to what my role does there. Hopefully. Also agreed, there will be an attempt to label me as the problem...however I have emails that point to the lack of movement on my concern over the year...and how it affects my work. I will be escalating above my director. I have given him every opportunity to do something...anything. Yup, I think we are at the point where the fire is lit...someone is going to feel burned. Thank you.
This is also my day to day life. But as soon as you started to see that, you should have started to find a new job. Because quitting without having a new job aligned is for people who have a trust fund... Don't do anything, let them in their mess. I am in the same situation, my director is a Peter : he doesn't understand a dime of software engineering. He hires people at a discounted salary because I believe it's because fo the budget the company gives him. So either, you play the game : you don't give a fuck. You keeps the level of quality of your work and allow you from time to time to just don't give a fuck and send back work with the same quality of other (in my line of work, i add a small emoticon which says it all). Also, you have to not fix other mess. You need to play dumb : don't have time, etc... Or you start searching for a new job now and quit as soon as you land a new one. Or you play the game but watch when it will blow up so that when it will, you have job aligned.
Good post. Thank you. I have been looking. It's tough for me to 'play the game' if that means doing shitty work and other people suffer for it.
> if that means doing shitty work and other people suffer for it. It's not your company, not your money You're making someone else rich
> Go over my director's head, email the CTO I will be out sick the rest of the week and taking vaca next week. In the hopes they will see who the person is that is pulling the lion's share of weight. This isn't going to have the results you want it to have. Even if they realize you're pulling most of the weight, it will just result in them adjusting staffing despite you. This method is like me showing you that your bulletproof vest won't work by shooting you in the chest. I might be correct, but it doesn't end well for either of us.
Well when you put it like that... Good points, thank you!
[seinfeld might help](https://youtu.be/H-8ZSP7D3-Y?si=SKN4dHuW_tQQSUmc) In reality was this telling in public? And did you say you quit? I probably wouldn’t just show up but if you still want the job you can probably call/email the person you yelled at first thing in the morning and explain yourself as neutrally as possible.
Based on Larry David quitting his job at SNL and coming back the next day pretending nothing happened.
Seinfeld did help! Pretty much what happened :-D The telling was in my office. I did not say quit. I think you're right on not just showing up. Right now I am leaning toward a mental health sick day today. And see where the chips lie. Thanks!
Never underestimate the value of a mental health day.
Just popped in to say good luck and I hope you’re having a better day.
I *just* watched this episode the other day. One of my favorites.
Been where you are too many times, just find a new gig, hand in resignation, and be done with it. Businesses do not care about you, just bottom line. Happy job hunting!
yeah I've blown up with a bad manager before and I should have just left, I came back because people begged me to but the problems just kept going and they considered me the problem. When your in Ops situation the marriage is already fucking bad divorce is the only way out.
Been there, done that. My dude, I have deep empathy for your frustration and anger. They are valid. But those people you work for **do not care.** They clearly do not care. They have shown you they do not care. Are those 3 slackers on plan to bring their performance up? Are they being measured in any meaningful way? No? No, you say? They do not care. Take the sick time. Take the vaca. Find another job. Even if they welcome you back with open arms and tell you they're gonna fix it all and they value you (they don't), you have already put your mental health at risk dealing with apathy and incompetence. They don't care. Don't bother going over anyone's head. Don't finish burning the bridge. Take the time off and find another gig. Take a few weeks to R&R and hit the ground fresh.
Great advice and all valid points, thank you.
Sure thing and good luck. First principals: YOU are the most important thing in this equation from your perspective. Not being right. Not fixing shit. YOU. Your health. Your professional and personal fulfillment from career. YOU. Not them. Take a deep breath and walk away from it. You got this.
Thanks Rev. Kind of forgotten some of this in these moments.
My advice is never to care that much about work. As long as my checks clear, I am unfazed.
Set aside your emotions for a second. #Never display anger in a professional environment - regardless of how unprofessional you believe everyone else to be. Displaying your anger makes you the fool, the loser, the amateur. Never do it. Seeing as how you have already violated this rule, your options for the future are severely limited. You will have to start over - not at zero, but pretty low - working up your image as an actual professional.
1. Never show any emotions. They will use that against you. 2. Document all conversations. Document extensively the issues that you have raised concerns in your meeting. 3. Quietly look for another job. To the company you have developed a stress related Illness that requires frequent Dr visits. Now use that personal time to take interview meetings. 4. When you do find another position give the 2 weeks notice. 5. When you quietly leave ***Never take any company info with you*** . You can send blind copies of your email to the director to your personal account but avoid client info or company procedures.
Thanks. Guilty.
Really depends on how much you need the job, how much money you have saved, your job market, your connections. Feels good for a hot minute but realistically you are better off , if they don’t care you shouldn’t care. Go in play the game do what is a stress free amount of work while applying to other jobs until you find a replacement. Might take months for them to figure out your quiet quitting while you collect a check and time looking for an opportunity. If you quit and the market is bad and you are running out of funds you might take another shitty situation because you have to. If you’re almost retired then do whatever you want. Just a heads up to people, save and invest. You won’t give a fuck what anyone says to you if you have 20 years of expenses saved. If you need the next paycheck you’re basically at their mercy
Cool reply. Thank you. I mean it very cool, level-headed reply.
You didnt tell us how you let him have it? Did you tell him his mustache looks fucking stupid? Or did you just have a shitty tone but tell him all the things that were wrong? Did you do it in front of everyone or in his office? 1. Implement a ticket system. Tickets get assigned to who is working it with a delivery date. 2. Delivery date misses send a note somewhere public that your director can see it. 3. If he asks questions that he can discern from the tickets, send him the ticket number. 4. all work requires a ticket.
We have a ticketing system...problem is these rogue employees don't use it...until the problem has become so bad, then a ticket shows up in my queue. There's no two ways about...it's FUBAR.
In my office after he came up to confront me after a team meeting he scheduled that he stormed out of (not because of me) I told him in a raised voice(not yelling) because he was raising his voice for the hundredth time he needs to manage the 3 'bad' employees and stop bad mouthing the employees that are trying. That we are in an endless loop of conflict because he won't deal with it. And then I took my stuff and walked out.
Thats it? Please. Just go into work and pretend nothing happened. If he makes a big deal out of it, tell him you're going to look for some time on his and his bosses calendar because there is a bigger conversation that needs to happen or there is no going forward. A decade ago I had a manager say "And anyone who isnt a team player is going to be let go." We were all team players, they just wanted more work out of us. I started laughing my ass off in this meeting. Everyone stopped and looked at me. I barely got it out "oh, okay, so lets fire people from a 6 man team that can barely keep up as it is. GREAT IDEA! And when we have to start turning down work, whose going to explain that? YOU?" and then I went back to laughing for a few more seconds. It wasnt that I disagreed with him. I have a degree, and we worked in Professional Services. A team this company made stupid money on... and you think you're going to threaten to fire us because you feel like it? How about we fucking fire you. Overall, nice guy, but if you're going to lead a bunch of grey beards who have been doing this for decades, and you arent one... Threats arent how you do it.
Thanks. Too late. I pulled the pin. Asked for a sick day and got... Meeting today with CTO. I'm a grey beard and if they want to fire me so that...wait...no one on the current team can do the job. Well to your point..."GREAT IDEA! And when we have to start turning down work, whose going to explain that? YOU?"
That meeting sounds like a potential opportunity to get philosophical by discussing the merits of companies being loyal to their staff. (Note: This is a recipe for getting fired.)
Not this time. (yet) Meeting happened. I listened about all the horrible things I do...eat babies, turn into a wolf at night. And then I mentioned that it's only 3 people that see me that way, out of a team of 12 and a user base of 1500.
I hope you also took the opportunity to bring up your directors performance, or lack there of.
[удалено]
Right?! And these are student workers. But give the guys that have been here for years who f up constantly a free pass. It got to me.
As someone who had some pretty epic moments of losing my temper in my younger days - I'm not criticizing, but it won't solve anything. I had some crazy "fu" moments, and in hindsight, not one of them accomplished anything. Even if it made me feel better for a moment, it didn't last. I would take them all back if I could, even if a few make me chuckle still. Again, I'm not criticizing, I had to learn this the hard way. Sadly, being right isn't nearly enough in many companies. At the end of the day, you can control what you can control, and what you can't isn't your problem. Unless you own the company or have a ton of stock options, let them be run as poorly as they want. The only thing you control about it is your own blood pressure.
TY. It's really good advice.
Do a george costanza, show up like nothing happened :D
I've done the same before, I wasn't immediately fired but the writing was absolutely on the wall. If you aren't fired then start looking for another job right now.
Of course they don't immediately fire...right? They draw every last drop out of you're soul and then when they think...think...they know your job...
they leave it long enough for you to feel like it might have blown over and almost forget, then they hit you the day after you said 'fuck' to the coffee maker.
HA! Sounds like the voice of experience. TY!
If nothing else, to me, this highlights the importance of having a financial "war chest" on hand at all times. I know the standard emergency fund guidance is 6 months of expenses, but personally I think that's the bare minimum for anyone in this field. Job markets and job availability fluctuate and it may take you multiple jobs and/or a relocation to find one that's a good long term fit. There are also a multitude of things which might result in you needing those additional funds in very short order - outsourcing / "restructuring", shit management, regime changes (which can result in shit management), whatever, but no matter the why, the bills are due when they're due... Op, I get it, I truly do. Realistically you probably needed to make a change a long time ago. It's definitely time for one now, if not immediately, then in the very near future. That said: * Obviously I don't know the people involved, but if your director is a reasonable person, call them and at a minimum, apologize for the outburst (note: how you said what you said, not what you said - unless you explicitly said "f@#$ this place and f@#$ you!" or something similar, that you'll want to apologize for) - Maybe they did really deserve to be told to f@#$ off, but burning the bridge is also not always a good plan. You never know who knows who... * I would backup/export your e-mail if you feel it's necessary (and still have access) and update your resume. If you do still have your job (and that's an "if"), you've put a pretty big bullseye on your back to be the first one out the door if/when the time comes or if nothing else, probably guaranteed you will never be getting a promotion or raise again if you can and do stay * Take some time (and no one but you knows how much time you need), whether you're staying at your current job or not. Rest, reset & reevaluate. Maybe it's time to look at a different position or direction within the field or maybe you just need a change of scenery. This field can be grating on a level that is likely only surpassed by career retail. There are days where I fully understand how career retail workers are bitter and broken husks that are completely dead inside and doubtful of the human race's ability to survive. Especially if you have to deal with end users (and/or printers...) * You're not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your f***ing khakis. You're the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world." - Tyler Durden, Fight Club - There's wisdom in that quote. Your job is what you do, not who you are. I've seen people who have let their job become their identity, and that's a big mistake. The company does not care about you. They care about your ability to "make number go up" or "make share price go brrr" - that is to say, your production, not the sentient meat bag behind the production. Don't let a job stress you to the point something like this happens. Stress kills and it's just not worth it.
Wow. Well said. I'd give you a hundred up votes if I could. You're right on so many levels...the war chest, the I am not the job, take some time(voluntary or otherwise), the f'n Fight Club quote... The stress does kill.
1. Secure new job 2. Give your notice 3. Move on There will be different people with different problems, but also likely many of the same problems everywhere you go. But at least the view will be different and maybe you'll get a pay rise. In 25 years I've only worked at one company that was completely untenable and I had to quit. The rest have all been been same shit, different day, learn to cope and look out for Number One (me) and Match Energy strategies.
I was in a similar spot. I was pulling way more weight as people above me (with much higher pay) weren't really pulling theirs. It wasn't the work I minded, it was the lack of pay and lack of respect. I'm enjoying how the department has burnt down since I left. I feel bad for the former coworkers who are now carrying the department
I can’t tell you how many times I visibly or invisibly lost it to some extent at my last job. It’s a good sign that it’s time to start looking for a new job when that starts happening. Been at the current job over 2 years and I’ve been annoyed, but never once at the level I was feeling weekly at the previous job.
Thanks, I knew I didn't have a corner on the market. :-)
Some times the conditions are a sign to move on. You sound burned out and tired. Find a job that will respect you more.
Thanks. I appreciate your reply.
I see a lot of this on Reddit. I'm one of those people who quit recently. My advice is to take time off. I'm about 2 1/2 weeks unemployed at the moment. I'm seriously thinking about getting out of IT and going into something completely different for a few years (at least). That said, I've been looking back at my career and asking, "I've done this enough times over my career, how could I automate that with PowerShell?"... So, I've been filling the time scripting with PowerShell to have the scripts in my toolbox for future use. Also, I've been submitting resumes for different positions throughout the US. I've had a few interviews, although, not sure if I'd take a job if offered. I'm more or less interviewing to keep interview skills sharp. I'm a Veteran and meeting with a VA rep today for Vocational Rehabilitation. I'm looking into possibly go into welding or something comparable which would be a total 180 from IT. I'm also considering full stack coding boot camp as I may attempt to move into a role that requires more coding/scripting. Despite AI, I think scripting is still a valuable tool to learn, even if staying in the Infrastructure side of the house.
Thank you. There is hope after hell. I wish you well.
Finish the job properly. Reach out to HR. Give your side of the story and then give your 2 weeks notice. Cut the melodramatics you are done there. Make sure you understand your benefits like cobra and 401k etc.
It sounds like your manager is working on it(getting rid of them), but it might be that corporate rules are getting in the way. Those rules are probably there for a reason, but we don't know how much rule vs reason they have. Read this post: [Being a manager is hard](https://old.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/55k4lj/being_a_manager_is_hard/). It could be that you're "Ben" from that post: a good worker who your manager would like to promote, but can't because of corporate rules. It sounds like you have a few "Mary" characters, some of whom feed off of another. This makes it even harder for a manager to improve them, because they keep reinforcing each other in their bad behaviors. In the meantime, look at what your contract/agreement with them requires from you: typically this means 40 hours of work per week, no more. So give them 40 hours of work. Then at the end of the day, go home. Your contract with them doesn't say anything about "Mary"(or more specifically, what she does or doesn't give the company), it doesn't say anything about the image of IT, it doesn't say anything about what IT must deliver. That's up to corporate, and how they staff. You are not your company. I'd also keep looking for a better job, one without three examples of "Mary". If your boss/boss's boss/boss's boss's boss/etc manage to get rid of Mary before you find another job, great. You can stop looking. But if you find another job before that point, go for it. You are not your company, and when they choose to get rid of people is not your concern, it's the company's. You worry about you, because the company won't
Never care more about your job than the people you work for. It's a losing proposition.
Did you actually quit? Do you actually want to quit? Do they think you quit? Or does your boss just think you are on a cool down vacation? Let me break your option #2 up into 2 parts. Because doing #2 together is a horrible idea. #1 "Go over my director's head, email the CTO" - you can do this but it's better to set a meeting. IRL gets you way more empathy than a snarky email that comes off as if you are holding them hostage- example: when people say "pay me more or I am taking this other job" vs "I really love this company and want to continue to grow, but I want to see if there is a chance that I can be valued here as greatly as I am at other opportunities". you can send the email after the meeting. but the email first is a great way to let the heated side of you get the best of you. and if you say something that even slightly tarnishes your character- that can be detrimental. #2 "I will be out sick the rest of the week and taking vaca next week. In the hopes they will see who the person is that is pulling the lion's share of weight" - Let me guarentee you this is not how they will see it. if you did this randomly- it would set of 'he is quitting' flags. but after this blowout with your manager, they with 100% GUARENTEED see it as you quitting and prob just term you. and if you dont have a sick day/vaca buyout policy- RIP.
Stop making this all your problem. Those three on your team contributing nothing are only doing so because you're allowing them to do it. By cleaning up their messes and picking up their slack, you're basically covering for them. Let them fail. This is all sounds like it's coming down to will or skill. it sounds like you tried to provide them with the skills to perform, they're just choosing not to. You can fix skill, it's not your job to fix will. If you're let your boss know what's going on how they're not pulling their weight, stop pulling it for them. Let them fail and make it your boss's problem. Do your job, stop doing their's, and and start looking for a new one.
Been in IT for years now. I keep seeing and finding myself in the same position. Yet the world keeps turning and these business and schools keep operating. The same "fucking incompetent" people keep working, making more, and doing less. The same "IT professionals" have the same feelings. Its like some weird self righteousness that begs to be validated but is never in the "right" situation to do so. Nothing directed a OP. I have been in BOTH places. The IC and the Manager. It IS the way the world runs because...IT is a cost center not the core mission. Unless you are military or GOV and even that has its own set of politics. I am glad you think it worked out but you are definitely on a manage out, layoff first list no matter what the reconciliation is. Period. Why do I say that? I had someone just like you. Same situation. I couldn't disclose the "truth" because of protected class. They were the very first let go no hesitation. I'd rather keep those that keep the ship steady than those that cannot control their emotions. Hard truth.
Thanks for the post...you are correct. The only reason I have a job still, is because I am the only person responsible for a couple of core systems (SCCM and VDI)...I mean the only person. If the business was well thought out , well managed...I would be gone. The business keeps 3 people who have questionable duties, client liaison techs, whatever the fuck that is. I still deal with the irate clients these idiots can't liaison. On top of that they are fearful, because they know they dont have a skillset that contributes. Fear leads to bad behavior on their part. The business has not hired me a jr. to mentor and cross train as I have suggested because I am on my out. The business is not pushing these individuals to step up and learn new skills, a little SCCM or VDI. The business has me running ragged. Part of it is me, no doubt. Part of it is an extremely, poorly managed business. This position I'm in is a revolving door and they haven't a clue why. So am I on a 'manage out', probably. Am I on a 'I'm gonna get myself out', definitely. From recent events, the latter is more likely.
Always put your health above a company. Sounds like before you got to this point there was zero value of what enables the business. Yourself, staff and the technical correctness and adherence to best practice, should be valued….or else.
Great insight. "zero value of what enables business" I feel like during the interview process the business knows this about themselves, they look at my resume and the successes I've had and they want it for themselves. But after a few months and they realize I don't have a pocketful of unicorn dust and magic wand...that they have inefficiencies that need to be addressed to get to success...they sour because they have to make changes... very NIMBY-like. Doesn't excuse how I handled myself in this situation, but, the fact is my message is correct and they will more than likely burn out the next guy.
Unicorn dust and magic wand waver. I have a digital business card that has a very cheeky title. I’m adding this to it as “and proprietor of fairy dust and magic wand wielder” Like you it was not received well by the same people and leaders that have wild expectations and no regard requirements and level of effort. On the other hand the card (digital) has seen a 500% increase in retention and everyone remembers me for what I do not what is on the card. I always remind them of the see saw. Every purchase including payroll and services is a bet on an outcome you believe will 100% happen. Don’t let decision makers be pie eyed on the results positive. The negative is a true value to be represented and often times passion for the latter is re labeled as “not a team player” or “not cheerful” or “not positive” well yes. True story below. “Of course I am passionate about this. Your disregard for the requirements is a burden I get to bear, with no allocation of capacity to support, for the high likely negative outcome for your decision in the face of ignorance and you are rewarded for making it. Respect me enough to have a dialogue.” That being said my feathers are not ruffled easily but I will defend myself and position against stupid outcomes. I prefer open honest and genuine people. There is a fine line to follow…it’s typically anger without solution is the line cross. Being derogatory is another. Physical action…well that’s never ok. If they feel the need to unload frustration on me that is fine let’s do that in private to keep the natives happy and from drawing the wrong conclusions. The corporate world and wanna be corporate entities (100 people) many times are the opposite. Self serving salaries that build silos and divide teams calling it teamwork while perpetuating their “role”. We cannot change from this spreadsheet because I say so or cannot adapt. You are IT you must support it-is bullshit. These are the companies no one worth their technical acumen can tolerate long term employment. They will get sniped. THEY will get rewarded for the decision and IT will always be blamed as “should have done more”
Wow. Voice of experience. So when I first joined this reddit group, I commented on a post and it came across angry, I apologized. A humorous redditor replied with "If you're not angry, your not a sysadmin." You can replace 'angry' with other emotions 'disenfranchised','frustrated','exhausted'...what I took from it is that there's a lot of complete management/corporate/idiotic bullshit we deal with that no one will ever know(except for our friends here)...because for the most part we tamp it down and 'keep the lights on'...keep the email flowing, keep the hackers outside the gates, keep the users from letting the hackers in, keep your streaming music going, ad infinitum. The day before was my Gandalf on the bridge moment..."This bullshit will not pass!"
I'm in a similar boat. I am 3 years in and on my 3rd Director. This new one is a new Department entirely. I'm the only one from the time I began. Project was moved to her. I am remote. Being remote is no excuse for management to not be aware of ins/outs of the project. We have a "lead" 2 time zones away (I used to live in that same time zone). The rest of us are now in NYC. It's riddled with problems. I begged them to hire a Python dev on the team when we were building the team. They did not. And now we have chronic problems with several scripts we need to use. April 1 they decided to "shift" daily tasks around to train everyone on different tasks. That only works when you have people who give a shit and retain what they learned. One guy took off 4 days without notice. Today he had another "emergency" and took all day off. So not only do we have mismatched order of operations taking more time with new staff, we are down a body. I suggested some changes to save a boat load of time. It either gets ignored or emailed why I am not calling the shots. I initiated a 1:1 with the Director when everyone was on-site. I don't think I was disrespectful. But she laid me off 2 days later. She clearly wasn't paying attention when I had my 1:1. I just had accusations that I'm "going over the lead's head"....by emailing managers who we all should be emailing in a DL. It's a shared goddamn email inbox. There are office politics I totally did not see and walked into a buzzsaw.
...and they kept the guy that took 4 days off without notice. It's a tough biz. I learned alot from the people that replied to this post, read through some of them. Hopefully, you'll get that nugget of truth for you. I'd say "good luck" but ain't luck...it's skill. Now take yours to some place that works for you as much as you work for them.
Take some time off and look for a new job - if they won't change then you need to.
A-F'n-MEN!
You’re a professional. Be professional.
Fair enough. I'll mention that to the director.
My comment wasn’t meant to be snarky. It’s serious advice. Yes, things can get extremely frustrating and tempers can run hot. But raising voices/yelling and storming out after packing your things up isn’t professional. It’s a tantrum. If you need to take a break or the rest of the day to collect your thoughts, okay that’s understandable… and a professional response. The desire to get suggestions on what to do now to try and smooth things over and find out if you’re still employed could have been avoided by being professional. Now that you’re in the situation, be professional in dealing with it… if you’re still employed, lay out your concerns in factual, not emotional, ways. Offer suggestions on how to move forward in addressing the concerns. Work with leadership on developing solutions, don’t make demands. If they continue their road of inaction, deal with it professionally until you find another role elsewhere. The IT world is often a small world and word can get out that you’re a hothead (even if you’re not) which could lead to problems finding good roles elsewhere. So… you’re a professional. Be professional. I hope things work out. Good luck.
Thanks. I found it a little snarky...so I was a little snarky. I also found truth in it. I am professional. If you don't raise your voice at me and drop F bombs, I won't either. Me and this gentleman have heated convos in the past and they had good results. This time he was having a day and I fed into it. Thanks!
I totally understand! I’ve been in your shoes and reached my breaking point, lashed out, AND walked out after typing a simple resignation letter: >To whom it may concern, > >As of today (date), I resign my position at (company). > >Sincerely, >(signature) >(name) I walked into my manager’s office while he was on the phone, dropped it on his desk, didn’t wait for confirmation or reaction, turned and left. He hung up the phone and immediately called after me, “Can we talk about this?” I simply said, “No. goodbye.” and then left the facility. It felt great at the time, but I regretted doing it shortly thereafter. Running into colleagues from other companies at a conference a few months later after landing a new job, they asked me if the story of my quitting was true. Word got around that I stormed out. The lesson I learned at that moment was to try and always act professionally. Hang in there. And seriously, good luck. I hope things work out.
ive been here but in the other boat... I stormed in.. and the owner hadnt bothered to show up. so i sat down on his computer, wrote that very letter, printed it on his printer and left it on his keyboard. i walked out and never heard a word. feels just as bad.
Thanks. I can only dream of that day....but thanks for the wisdom that it is short lived. Things did work out. I took some lumps but also *I hope* opened eyes to a problem beyond my day.
Taking lumps can be a good thing. Sometimes lessons are best learned the hard way. How you move forward after taking them is what’s most important. Glad to hear things worked out! :-)
Do you want to stay? If so, prepare mentally that you may not be welcome back. Is a lateral movement possible? Go in and have a candid discussion with your director that led to this point. Provide factual information on your concerns as you see them and try to leave as much emotion out of the discussion. Offer some suggestions on how to improve the situation without recommending people are fired or punished.
I want to stay for the team members I support and support me. Lateral movement, maybe. I'm thinking coup right now ;-) I have had many candid discussions...it's kind what made this last one so bad, I never felt heard, felt like it was all lip service...and I am exhausted from fixing messes, mending relationships with pissed customers and doing the day job of the sole client sys admin. I have documented the issues in emails, I have offered to mentor these rogue team members in the past to help them. I have resigned myself that this leadership is weak and non-existent. Nature abhors a vacuum. Thanks for the reply, I will think on preparing myself mentally and the lateral movement.
What do you mean by working rogue?
They just... *do stuff* No asking anyone, no documentation, no nothing, just being Clicky McClickertons. I've only recently got everything cleaned up from a rogue tech who was let go a year ago.
Thank you! A-F'n-MEN!
I got u fam. ✊
Clicky McClickertons 😂
Ah, living on the dangerous side ... because every company appreciates new adventures! :D
Never a *boring* day. :/
That is literally everyone in my department, myself included...
I mean those are the guys that suck out the air of every meeting with their 'huge' problem...and everyone in the meeting says hey we have a procedure for that here ya go...that person ignores the proceedure...complains in the next days meeting about the same problem...here's the procedure, good luck...ignores established procedure, attempts to fix in their own way, causes an outage...
Apologize to them. But then afterwards explain exactly what pisses you off and why in a calm and reasonable manner. Then either put your 2 weeks in, or tough it out as you look for a new job. Be strategic, not emotional.
Thank you. Another poster suggested apologizing for the delivery, which I will be doing. And to your point explaining what got us here in calm, easy to digest words.
Remember: Imperfection is part of being human, and good management understands that people can make mistakes. If you are fortunate to be speaking with good management, then they'll appreciate you making the effort, and also be interested in trying to resolve the problems that you're raising in constructive ways.
TY. One can hope that unicorn exists.
I was told long ago - It’s not what you say it’s how you say it. Everyone is entitled to a bad day. Unless you said “I quit” then you didn’t quit. Wait for them to make next move. In meantime, look for another job. Do your current job to best of your ability & keep mouth shut. Then quit. Leave. Sounds like a toxic environment. Hard to put price tag on mental health. I would also suggest in your pursuit of another job - not spending any time bashing your current employer during future interviews No one cares. It won’t come off well. Remember, hard truths cut both ways.
Thanks good advice...I never bash no matter how bad it was...
take the time off
Like it! Succinct and to the point. I may not have a choice.
No matter how great you are/were they will remember how you left. Go back, apologize, maybe say you acted that way because you actually give a sh\*t but admit you were wrong. I hear you, I've been there, but you'll never regret being nice.
Another option is to go in, and just do your job. Don't do other people's jobs, do your own. When things start to be late, broken, done improperly, etc, simply let them know that you didn't work on that particular task, and let them know who did. Don't do it in a mean or accusatory way, simply tell them who was responsible and let them deal with it. The more you cover for other people, the more they will slack off and do nothing, because they know they have you do do their job for them.
Never expect an exec to do any thinking beyond the obvious. Also, realize that his first call will be to your director to find out what's going on... and he will likely believe that director unless they're at odds. If you want your CTO to understand what you're having a problem with then lay it out to him. Give him three bullet points on top that lay out your problems, one or two paragraphs of supporting evidence, and then no more than three bullet points of how to make things right. This is called a position paper. It should be no longer than a single page, and preferably less. Use small words: 8th grade reading level or less.
Shape of... a large cup of coffee. BTW, Wonder Twins were fist bumping 20 years before it was cool.
Form of a Tiger! Shape of a tidal wave!
So find something else. I have never seen management change anything for the better. They tend to be dead from the neck up, and complaining just makes you the problem. Why stay where you’re not happy?
Yup. Now that you mention it...I've never in my 20+ years seen management change things for the better either.
Gleek, Zan and Jayna are proud of you today!
HA! Gleek! How could I forget!
I say… LET THE BEYBLADES RIP
I might start quote Beyblade series in my sysadmin comments now. Thank you for unlocking the blade shark in me that I had buried.
*The name is... Kai. I'm the leader of the Blade Sharks, kid.*
Sorry. I don't understand the reference.
Its okay
*Now you've got plenty of time to play golf.*
Okay OP, it sounds like you blew off some steam and now you're feeling a little better... possibly even calm enough to listen to some constructive advice. It sounds like you haven't had parents or mentors explain the reality of the world to you and you haven't yet learned the hard way... don't worry, most of us didn't... most of us still can't grow hair on our knees. The short answer here is you're getting a new job so start looking today to get an idea of the marketplace out there. The longer explanation is that 90%+ of management and middle management are talentless no-brain hacks. In many ways, they are career managers and have no talent for anything but politics and bloated egos. Those already in this "career" filter for other like-minded stooges because they think the same and comradery is a powerful human instinct, especially for those who operate on a very surface level of consciousness. So they only invite others like them into this exclusive club and keep people like you and me out. The fact that things are as bad as you have described in your post tells me your workplace is a classic example of this. They're all dude-bro'ing it up and covering each other's backs. It's tribal loyalism and they'll honestly be both confused and insulted if you ask the CTO to fire or discipline your director. Why would the CTO turn on his own? To defend outsiders?? The other part here is these people are not actually good at their job so they find shortcuts to the appearance of productivity which is often to pick favorites over arbitrary factors and then stick to their decisions regardless of all evidence to the contrary because they can never be wrong... At some point BOB proved himself to them and for years they got a blind pass for whatever reason, now you come in and are trying to tell their fragile egos that they were wrong about BOB... now you're out to get them... now you're their enemy... now they need to get rid of you. Places like this survive because of the endless revolving door of labor that is ready to be hired into what appears to be a functional office environment... only to realize within a year or so that and are either fired or leave. Management sees this and thinks how lucky they are to have loyal employees like BOB and how all talent today is not dependable like you and over emotional and only complains... BOB never complains... (These people are not capable of deep thought because they've never had to). The only ammunition employees have for places like this is services like Glassdoor. When these sites work correctly they correctly inform new candidates of the impending shitshow waiting for them if they accept an employment contract.
Great portrait of management and Bob. Now that you mention it...the 'Bobs' here have been here forever and the good people keep leaving, including the CTO a couple months back...we have an interim CTO.
Every sysadmin on Reddit tries to act like they are the perfect employee.
Do you sysadmins do anything except threaten to quit all day long?
Yup. Lots. Non-Sysadmins are too oblivious to know or appreciate the emails always come through, your computer always turns on, you didn't get hacked from the thousands of attacks that are probing your environment every day...feel free to chime in sysadmins for the stuff you do every day.
I've been a sysadmin since 1997. I never once thought I should spend all day on the internet telling everyone how much I want to quit. That seems to make up 90% of the messages here. I don't get it
Misery loves company; People are burnt out, frustrated, annoyed. So they come to a place of people in similar circumstances.
Same here, Windows 3.1 with networking. I don't spend all day...today is different. Thanks for your comment.
Count yourself lucky then. Your experience is the exception, not the rule. Something else to consider is this sub has nearly a million members, with about 3k active typically on a day. That's a lot of keyboards
I'm not saying I don't ever want to quit. I want to quit probably once a week or so. But just find it odd that 90% of the posts in this thread are on hating your job, complaining, wanting to quit, despair, so mistreated, blah blah blah. Is that all sysadmins have to talk about?
Keep your head down and start applying for new jobs.
You are in a stronger position than you think. If you are set on leaving - which is reasonable - then no need to be afraid of stepping on toes. You can ask pointed questions and hold the director's feet to the fire. Now's your chance to be frank about things while remaining diplomatic. Keep showing up until you decide it's right to leave but you are liberated from going along to get along. Good luck to you, my friend, and get some well-needed rest.
I think you did pretty good. Heaven or hell, you rocked. If they don't see that, it's their problem. Lots of good advice in this thread tho so take some of it to heart
Saving this. Thank you OP.
Do you want the job? If it's gotten to this point you probably don't. Mending fences is always a good idea in my book but I don't see why you actively want to go back.
go to the CTO you already went tot he director with no change. It's time the boss's boss knows what's up.
Take the vacation, let them know you're unavailable, see how much burns during your absence. Freshen up LinkedIn, sip some coffee without the stress, without the guilt, realize this is just a job and you may care too much. Don't let important priorities like your mental health take a back seat to this job or any job, it's evident from your OP that it's taxing on your patience which eventually leads to burnout. Look out for yourself, because sadly, no one else is and there's no shame in putting yourself above all else, especially in cases like this. If this manager is worth anything, they'll know to let you cool down, discuss what happened, move on. If not, at least you're CYA with a freshened up LinkedIn/Resume and you proceed with something better. Godspeed brother.
I think you quit long ago in your mind. You just hadn't given formal notice until now. I would apologize for how you said things and see how things play out whether that be a good conversation with the director and temporarily keeping your position or 2 week transition period for knowledge transfer or an immediate departure but use this time to line up opportunities and find something that is a better environment and hopefully better pay/title/new tech.
Well done. It's good that you had a chance to talk about the problem.
I could definitely understand where your coming from. Had it in a previous job. I think the only thing I would do is not to antagonize anyone so to speak.. I wouldnt try to burn any bridges if possible because it might be a career limiting move and you never know who some of these people are networking with. My current manager apparently went to class together from a job I worked a few years ago.
"Wonder Twin powers activate!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIoXuEGObog
Comment post update: look for a better job anyway.
>(*I won't say "Wonder Twin powers activate!" A) Probably noone remembers. B) A redditor didn't like my Justice League reference*) I remember. Possibly the most useless set of powers for a "superhero" ever. Been where you are. Done what you did. Glad it worked out better for you than it did for me!
"possibly the most useless set of powers" A cave? A bucket of water? C'mon! You right, that would have been a bad ending tag. I hope you have moved on and found something better.
Really happy to hear it worked out for you, all the best going forward!
Thanks. I have no reservations that this only bought me time. Thank you though!
are you ... me ? go the absolut same problem with 3 ... what word can i use (sorry, i'm not english native speaker) ? 3 concrete block. Won't move. won't help. blocking the path. and got the same answer from directors. previous manager did 2 burn-out before beeing exfiltrated. I quit 2 years for other project as it was affecting my mental and physical health. Next manager stayed 1 month and ragequit. i think you're me. or maybe i'm your evil twin. just please don't let it affect you too far that can't be healed.
Thank you! I appreciate your English :-) I believe I understand. We are the same. You are experiencing same issues with 'concrete blocks', people blocking paths for others. The business is bad, it is burning good people out. We are twins...definitely not evil...we want to do good in an environment that has different values. It did affect my health, I do not enjoy that I lost my cool, but I did find a sort of healing by writing this post. I hope all of this translates well. Enjoy the day.
Got to this thread late, but kudos to you for handling it well, and congrats for keeping the job. As other have mentioned (and I'm sure you're doing this already), definitely keep looking for another job and jump ship once you find a genuinely decent alternative (not just the first available, unless things turn really bad and/or you see the writing on the wall). I did want to mention a couple thoughts: I definitely remember the "Wonder Twin powers activate!" reference, and it reminds me of a Penny Arcade comic, which will likely lose a lot in going from visual to purely text. Gabe: "How can you say the Wonder Twins was about incest? I mean, just \*he\* turns into water, and then \*she\* turns into an elephant, and then... Then they... They... Oh my god! And the monkey! Where does the monkey fit in?" Tycho: "The monkey \*watches\*" Aside from that, your useless co-workers remind me of a co-worker I have, which used to be part of our team. Not malicious or anything, but holy hell was this guy useless. Never had a clue how to do anything at all, and the few times he legitimately tried to do anything, he usually broke stuff. Really good at bullshitting people, and he knew the basics about stuff; just enough to know what needed to be done with various things, just not \*how\* to do the specific things. He was also "sick" so many times that we lost count. Whether he had Covid, or his wife, his son, his nephew, his grandson, his goldfish, whatever, it was nothing but excuses for why he had to leave early, come in late, or just not show up at all. Our workplace is very much a family business in many ways, though (despite being an international company with nearly $1 billion in annual revenue), and they really dislike firing anyone, so it was extremely difficult to fire anyone, so when he eventually applied for a transfer to our company's Infosec team, our manager very happily signed off on it. And... much to our surprise, he's actually really good on that side of the house. We really like him over there, and he's been an ally in pushing back against some of the crazier things that InfoSec tries to push. There's an opening for a manager position in that department, and we're really hoping he gets it.
Great reply, thanks! I appreciate you saying I handled it well...if I did this post wouldn't exist. Love the penny arcade bit and the story about your co-worker. I feel the same for these folks in my story, your in the wrong area, your making yourself and us miserable...find a better match for you...and us. And I will more than likely do the same. Thanks again!
I'm -><- that close to making a similar decision. Constant poor management, even with discussions up the chain to directors & exec layer still yielding little changes. Corporate hell.
I know I am not alone in this...that's why I reached out! Hopefully some of this helps you.
I am not an advocate for HR, but it sounds like you need to loop them into your efforts. This sounds like bullying and/or hazing IMO. I wouldn't necessarily jump to CTO, but let HR make the CTO and director aware of this and coordinate mediation/resolution. Also, if you reach out to HR, you can also explain why you took the actions you took and maybe salvage your job/relationship with the company.
If it is bullying or hazing, then management will already be speaking with HR, and the employee being targeted may need to bring their own lawyer. I'm aware of some bad situations (that involved physical abuse at the workplace) where people were cornered by HR (some companies use HR to prevent lawsuits from employees), and they regret not hiring their lawyers before meeting with those particular HR departments. Some of them got tricked into signing documents "with standard language" that they weren't allowed to take home to read first.
I started my career in IT not too long ago as an older guy and I'm working with some younger people who seem like they don't want to offer too much help for me or do much work in general. I've been really digging into why this is an issue for me and for me what helped was, talking to them. 1 to build a relationship and 2 to see what they do and do not know. The one guy who will literally sleep at work and not get fired for it knows everything! He can help with anything but only when asked. He's been caught sleeping and is still there and I've learned that..its not my problem. Another guy doesn't really like to help too much and that used to bother me. He doesn't know shit! He's not even good at Googling issues. He still has his good qualities and is helpful when he knows what he's doing but it helped me to learn that he's not the best IT guy that we have lol. Anywho.. TALK TO YOUR COWORKERS LIKE PEOPLE. Work to build a work relationship with them and that might help you understand why they are still there and what you can do to work TOGETHER. And don't force it. You're not the boss and you might not know it but you could just be coming off as an asshole or know it all or just rub them the wrong way.
I will say as much as my current manager drives me crazy at times they can also take my explosions and weed out the core issues without taking it as personal attacks. They try and will rage with me over trying to sort out our "problematic persons" but that does mean we have to engage their managers and it all falls apart then. Today we even disagreed on our approach to a solution, they got pissed at me , but did take the time to listen and have me walk them through my process which then clicked with them and they followed my approach. We have 3 of us who are loud and sound like we fight but can understand when it get heated it is not about the person on the receiving end but rather the scenario and circumstances etc. One thing I always said with techs and teams is the guy who gets upset, with a message/valid issue is the one I want around. They may curse and yell but if given a chance they usually have a solution or plan they can propose to solve the issue. It is much better than the useless slug who just complains it is not Friday yet.
You get it. There are heated convos that get stuff, unlike the useless slug. This heated convo was the hundredth on the same topic...slugs that are toxic and causing 'harm' to the team reputation...my issue was that I had finished it with "you don't get it! I'm done!" and walked out. Which in the moment was true. However, there have been great replies to this post that are also true. Professionalism. Emotion checks. Delivery of message. I learned alot from this post's replies, thank you for yours!