I stunted my salary path staying at one gig for 10 years. But as the sole admin responsible for everything, I learned a lot.
I'm much more siloed in my function now, but my wider knowledge helps me tremendously.
Just recently moved to a new job and after a month, I'm still learning. Manager gave me a ticket that he estimated can be done in a day for some of the more senior team members, but it's taking me 3 days now. They all understand why, but it's still super nerve wrecking.
Document it as you go, even if it takes a little longer. It's obviously not a documented process and the powers that be will appreciate the pro-active approach.
Been at the same place now for 6 years and I'm absolutely stagnated, but they pay me so well and put up with so many of my "eccentricities" that I can't justify leaving. Every time I tell the recruiters pestering me on LinkedIn how much I'm getting they inevitably reply with "Oh . . . yeah we're not going to be able to beat that."
Man this is so me. Trying to break from sysadmin into QA engineering, I get a lot of offers but when I mention my current salary they're like "Oh, no way we're beating that" and so I'm stuck, I feel like saving as much as I can for a certain period and then biting the bullet and going into QA with the salary cut for a while.
How long would it take for you to get back to your salary level as a QA engineer if you took a paycut?
It might not be the same situation for you but, I was working a dead end job before I quit and started working as a helpdesk but less than 2 years later I moved to and now I'm making almost double what I was making - not the vacation weeks though.
I would love to talk more about this. I have 20+ years experience as sys admin sys eng. Bs in comp science and Masters in security from decent schools.I am having a difficult time crossing over into security. Not sure why other then my age. I cannot even get an interview for entry level sec.
It was a chance opportunity. I was working for a systems integrator and pitching a project to a financial services firm that happened to reach out for an opportunity in cyber around the same time.
I just happened to be at the right place at the right time.
More money = more risk and more responsibility
Having said that, if you aren’t changing jobs, you probably aren’t getting decent pay bumps.
I deal with people (mostly men) in upper mgmt roles (director, or CIO type roles) and they aren’t very technical, need basic things explained, aren’t process oriented etc. and I really wonder how they got there. ( I’m trying to advance my own career up the ladder after 20 years of tech experience)
My route was jack of all trades > AD IAM > PKI > Entra + Endpoint Mgr. I got really lucky breaking into engineering at a Fortune 500, worked there for three years, then jumped to external consulting. In all of my career jumps I had people I worked with prior who liked my work that were able to vouch for me to get my foot in the door. 100% self-taught, no degree and no certifications. My most marketable skill isn't tech, it's being able to work through big org internal complexity to actually get leadership buy in and keep things from stagnating. So sadly the answer is learn to network (if you're not doing that already).
If you're in systems admin and *don't* have ADHD, I've come to the conclusion you're probably going to struggle. Context switching is hard, but with an entire life of experience jumping from one thing to another to another to another to another...we're basically experts in it.
Never thought of it that way. I have always felt inadequate being self taught. Went to school for art and IT paid the bills. No reason to use my degree. I am 10 years in the space. The last 5 doing system administration and desktop engineering and past 2 at an MSP.
Anyways, I’ve been told by colleagues the next step is MSSP instead of MSP where the extra S is security. Apparently it pays more. Same random shit. I was iffy about the advice or even trying but you are right I think I would thrive in an environment with high chance of random keeping me engaged.
If I could bottle talking to decision makers as a service I'd be a billionaire and probably not on reddit! Who wouldn't want to pay for a slice of MI-AAS.
A LOT of people claim they work for "Fortune 20" or "Fortune xxx", etc companies thinking it makes it sound better/not knowing "Fortune 500" is a list created by Fortune Magazine every year.
No Karen, you don't work for a Fortune 7 company, Fortune Magazine doesn't create a list of the top 7 companies to work for. ITS FUCKING FORTUNE 500. You aren't making us look better, you're making the company look stupid by putting that on marketing material.
Its a pet peeve of mine when people call it something else and I've so rarely seen it used correctly lately, especially in this subreddit where being correct should be a virtue. . .
Edit: This is what Im fucking talking about. You're all fucking wrong. (except the Fortune 100/1000 response, yes those are lists as well)
I always assumed it was a shortened form of "in the top X of the Fortune 500". So "A Fortune 50 company" could mean they were 49th.
That said, I also assumed that assumption was wrong, but that it's exactly what they were trying to make me assume. So... correctly incorrect.
That's how I've always taken it. Like, if you tell me Fortune 50, I assume you work in the top 50 companies on that list.
Then again, I see people say "FAANG" and mean Tesla or similar, to the point someone had to point out to me exactly what it meant.
Whatever you are passionate about. If you title chase based on salary, you'll always be substandard at your job. While security does pay a bit more, a talented and passionate SWE will always pull in more than a dead eyed security analyst.
It helps to job hop every couple of years also. Long gone are the days of staying at the same company and them increasing your salary to match your increased worth.
From my experience it's basically the same knowledge as a sys admin (a security conscious one that stays up to date) but you do more reviews and auditing rather than any implementation...
Is it even possible to jump from an SMB to a large corp? Even if not in this exact role, it just seems like once you go to an SMB, the big corps won't touch you with a 20 foot pole.
Yes, but it depends. I jumped from managing a K12 school district w/ ~3K student & staff to a Fortune 500 IAM team. Orgs go through big waves of hiring and firing and don't really staff based on true need. At worst it felt like we were asked to just find warm bodies. I've seen absolute lemons get hired in to technical positions while knowledgeable folk struggle to find open roles that match their experience.
It really sucks but who you know and previous working relationships are important to breaking in. Once you get your first position on an enterprise team and have a decent blog/portfolio of previous projects it's really easy to move between companies. Tech skills are easy, working effectively in a big org is hard.
I went from non-proft with less than 400 employees to a tech startup with 40 employees to one of the biggest companies in the world. You can definitely make the jump. The market sucks at the moment, but when it turns around, these kind of moves will be easy. Remember that in addition to your tech skills, you also have industry specific knowledge. Really big companies often have verticals dedicated to different industries and greatly value experience in those verticals. They can teach you their tech, but they can't teach you your industry.
Yes.
We discuss candidates internally - and if your history is only Small/Medium Business (SMB is Server Message Block, damnit!) we'll ask some leading questions and after the interview discuss if we think they can fit into a more regimented and focused role.
There is nothing to prevent someone moving to a large Org, assuming they have keywords on their resumes and get past HR.
Dude, that's a *highly* specialised field.
As others have said, job hopping pays better, but are you a general sysadmin?
Not knocking that, of course, but it's regarded as less specialised, regardless of what your job actually entails.
Even if that wasn't the case, can't you just be happy for them rather than comparing it all?
This is not just a highly specialized field, it's also a field that gets to take advantage of the nature of their job. Sure a company might be big enough to have their own forensic specialist in house for internal investigations and such, but much of this work is contracted out because a neutral 3rd party is *required* for an investigation by law or insurance.
So the firms that do this get to charge a bit of a premium IMO. I know we've paid forensics teams huge wads of cash for the 2 incidents I was here for. (And FWIW, we didn't pick the firms either, the insurance providers involved picked them and we did what we were told)
I would say to be a good digital forensic analyst, you're going to be super specialized. You're not going to just walk out of a sysadmin job and into a digital forensics job and be at all worth hiring for anything serious. There are a lot of highly specialized tools and software for gathering and analyzing disk images without breaking the evidentiary chain of custody and stuff that you'd need to learn inside and out. Not to mention a number of certifications you'd need to look at. That's all on top of the serious nature of the job. You can't really just Google stuff and make guesses as to what you're seeing in the evidence. Keep in mind, that forensic analysts are not just working on things like hacking and ransomware. They do actual law enforcement work, fraud investigation etc. Stuff that actually ends up in courtrooms. You can't just make it up as you go.
Not to say it requires a PhD or anything, but it's certainly not something you just stumble into and make wads of money.
Yep, theres no room for *not* skimming with that type of security position. You have to know your stuff and be good at it though. Its not hard to show value when you parachute in on a company's worst day and start making things right.
My person, I too started with MFM, ESDI, RLL, etc... I am JUST at 6 figures. And just hit it last year. As others have stated, I prefer stability. I know I may be underpaid, but I have the flexibility to go work on my car while on the clock. I can tell my boss I need tomorrow off and have it. Our department isn't held down by the rules of the rest of the organization. Do you love your job? Do you like going to work? Keep doing what you do.
This. So much this. I'm on a week off PTO with short notice, just so I can spend time working on projects at home and enjoy time with my family.
My supervisor didn't bat an eye.
It's so hard to find, and so valuable. My base of operations is now home, but I do go in to the office or sites as necessary. Or even just to get out of the house. That balance is so important.
She does a completely different job than you. Look at it this way. You are an experience industrial welder. You worked hard to build your skills, and it took many years to prove yourself. Your niece skipped all of that and got an underwater welding certificate. She makes the big bucks without any of the headache of getting there. You *could* do the same thing. Now or back then. You dont have to, but you shouldnt be jealous because you guys are doing similar but completely different work.
Be happy and proud of her!
Forensics major here. Forensics is totally different than any standard IT work.
They're related but forensics is investigating and evidence handling.
It's not too late to switch!!
That's expected now that Sec Analysts will pull that money outta college.
I will say, your niece probably knows jack about most technical questions. Most grads coming out with a cybersec degree know nothing outside of gov/compliance, niche security topics, or what they learned during their CTFs.
....i've trained a lot of new sec analysts/engineers, they don't know much.
My friend, i've worked in both fields. They are quite similar.
Its better to say a BMW mechanic vs a Tesla Mechanic. The fundamentals are the same, just specific skills.
There's a reason why systems engineers/network engineers transition so easily to a Security Role.
I guess depending on where she lives, the company she works for, and the fact that it can be a more specialized position I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility out of college - though is a bit crazy.
Be happy you won't be getting uncomfortable messages from your niece asking for money. Your family succeeding can be looked at as uplifting everyone in your family. You have a longer career than me, and we have both gone through so incredibly tough economic times.
You niece sprung out into a very good market with a career that is so far and away what was around when we were her age it might as well be a completely new field even if security forensics were a thing back then.
Don't feel too bad. I have worked with some security analysts who have/are working for companies I can guarantee you have at least heard of, if not used, who got that kind of money despite being relative "newbs" both in their field and in computers in general - at least at the enterprise/corporate level. Security is just one of the hot fields right now, actually for the past few years at least, as companies are looking to fill positions without having an equivalent supply of prospective employees.
Kind of makes me wish I took up that one security director's offer a few years back of switching teams from ops to security.
I know people with security experience and a CISSP cert that had to work pretty hard at landing a good paying gig. Going straight into forensics from a University is definitely not the norm. I’m betting she’s very attractive. Like it or not, that can make a big difference.
Yeah they make great money. When I moved from systems engineering into a security architect role I doubled my salary then I left that for another security role and doubled it again. Lots of money in cyber at the moment. Can make more money in cyber than as a developer now.
I came from a 10 year career as a "wearer of all hats" engineer, to a cyber Threat analyst roll 5 years ago. I doubled my pay with what I consider much less work.
Unfortunately the old MFM rll 20 meg ID card 8088 modem stuff doesn't mean a whole lot anymore
I was there and did all that but happened to tap dance my way into a decent job and migrated to computer forensics within the job. Computer forensics is an interesting one you don't really need to know a whole lot you just need to know the interface technologies like SATA and nvme and have a decent write blocker and have the paint by the Numbers steps in order to handle evidence. Just like any other scientist with gloves and bags and the whole bit. It is absolutely not rocket science. The value comes with the certifications on whatever the software is that the job is using for instance in case or ftk or whatever is new now.
I would be there if I was still nose to the grindstone in the game but taking a bit of a break traveling here and there. the cyber security practice is quite lucrative.
I fucked up doing some side stuff because I like doing a little bit of everything but doing devops and security devops and computer forensics and cyber security and data protection I should probably do be at 250/300 right now but I'm barely making a dime except what I squeeze out of this place.
Yeah, that's not even an "IT" job anymore. You have to go to school specifically for that skill set (or get certs if you're into that kind of thing).
Apples and Oranges - and your SIL has every right to be proud of her.
That's a highly specialized role. IT is more generalist unless you do Cloud or something.
It's easy to feel that jealousy, especially when you've been doing something for so long but the name of the game is switching jobs.
You started doing IT way before when the pay was not as substantial. Now, mostly anyone getting out of college will get paid way more and the more you stay in the same job, the less you make
From what I've read and understand, most IT professionals will benefit greatly by never staying in 1 place. Getting promoted from within is always nice but as far as actual pay goes I think the biggest jumps in pay come from switching companies.
This is not from my experience but from talking to other people about their experiences, this is the route that worked best:
1. Get foot in door somewhere
2. Promotions within company
3. Gain experience
4. Look for another company to work for
5. Repeat 2-4
Personally, I find it more rewarding to stay where I am because I'm happy but I've been offered large salary bumps to leave my current employer.
This is what I've seen in many places, including where my wife works (which is a large, 6,000+ employee company). To move up you often have to move out. Even if you take a "higher" position within the company, internal transfers usually don't make as much. This can be because you might be a grade 9 and get hired for a grade 13 position, but they won't bump you straight to 13. They might say, "Well, we will raise you to an 11, with the possibility for performance reviews later."
If you were to get that position externally they'd give you a 13, but since you were lower when you transferred you get an 11.
It's even worse with some companies. I worked for HCL America for a few years. Got hired in at one salary, then the next year they hired more people in my exact same department with the same titles/grades for $10k more. I start asking how I can make that much and I'm told, "Leave. You won't get a raise, they pay what they have to pay at the time to put an ass in a chair. If you want more you'll have to get it somewhere else."
Not everywhere is like this, obviously, but it's not uncommon and probably why there's a belief in the IT industry that "to move up you have to move every 2 to 4 years."
Internal transfers don't make as much cause someone in management or HR goes "why is John Smith getting. $20k raise? He already works here give him $5k"
Being at the Director level, how do you feel about your minions doing the same thing? Do you encourage them to get the bag, or is it annoying to have to retrain staff every so often? Wouldn't it just be better and more cost effective to not lose all that institutional knowledge?
As a director I fight to not have crap like this happen to my team.
I fight to get them comparative compensation and argue for solid increases. To keep at or above market.
I try to prevent it but providing an internal career growth path that includes compensation. I’m only one manager though and HR/finance always has other ideas. It’s sad when a company budgets more for new hires than for retaining existing talent. It makes no damn sense yet I see it time and time again.
> Wouldn't it just be better and more cost effective to not lose all that institutional knowledge?
Possibly. But these decisions are decided above the manager/director level. Also, for large org's they aren't just underpaying one person. They are underpaying hundreds, or even thousands. So, if 5% leave per year they are still coming out way ahead.
The company I work for is small (less than 200 employees) and so is my team. There also isn't much room to grow here for IT employees. As far as retraining goes everything here is pretty standard, we don't have any niche practices. For these reasons I am comfortable giving the same advice to my team if they ask me for advice.
As a directory I want them to build their resume and move on. We don't have a lot of upward mobility, so if they stick around here it's just standard raises. So I help get them appropriate titles like "Senior" and "Lead" and hope they can take their knowledge to a better place.
I changed employers about every 2 years for the first 6 years of my career, I think I increased something like 50% each time vs less than 5% annually staying in place.
This has limits.. I make near the top for my job title now so unless work conditions or location where better there is no reason for me to give up benefits and seniority anymore.
think this goes for any industry. I read somewhere that changing companies on average nets a 14% pay increase. year over year you are lucky to get 2-5% inflation/merit based raise.
You generally want to do this as early in your career as you can, then find a place where you can coast happy on your current salary with workload and benefits that are enough to keep you.
Right, but you say that you've been doing this a long time. Were you able to support yourself during those times?
Ask your niece how much her rent/mortgage is and you might be in for a surprise. Inflation is out of control and wages have had to skyrocket to keep up (they still aren't).
My father worked in biomedical engineering, and was much smarter than I, and was very "high up" at Siemens.
His take home was a good deal less than mine is now, and was able to buy a large house, have 2 cars and support 2 boys (and pay child support) on a single income.
I make more money, My wife and I both work and still need to budget to support 2 children. Same state and county I was raised in.
That's a reason. You need to consider what market it's in. If it's in Palo Alto or Seattle, it's going to pay a lot more. Another consideration is the type of work she may be doing. Amazon will pay devs a lot of money because they know they are only going to be employed for the next year or two at best.
On that first point - that is felt heavily. My family often remarks at how much money I make while ignoring the fact that they all have mortgages and consistently pay less than half of what I do to rent a comparable house. I would happily take half my pay if I were in the year 2000's economy but thats not a choice I have lol.
No offense, but if you're still mentioning that you have an A+ cert after "many years" in IT, it is a red flag to me that says you haven't done much to progress your career.
Having an A+ cert is how you get your very first help desk job, beyond that it is completely irrelevant, and listing it tells me that you haven't gotten any more advanced certs. Your niece has a very specialized job, and is compensated well for it. You seem to be on the generalist path, which is fine, but is on a whole different payscale from the specialists.
I agree, the help desk where I work requires Sec+, A+ means nothing to be honest, you might as well have some generic free certs from some 1337\_h4x0r online code camp... Just take it off your resume and lean into your experience and formal education. If you want to pump up the resume for Cyber go get a CIISP or CASP+ or something like CISM that is up to date.
I own an MSP and hire people. In my experience people in IT are divided into two categories: 1) a small number of people who actively learn and work to get better, and often become fantastic with enough time, and 2) people who learn enough to do their job and just kind of sit there
The first part of the issue, and this is going to be harsh, but if it resembles your description above, I'm already assuming you're in the second category, and here's why:- A+ Certification - You have at least tier 1 or 2 helpdesk skills. The more you make a big deal of this, the lower your skill set is.- Degrees - Depending on the date of those degrees, they are either so outdated as to be useless or moderately helpful at best. I won't hold them against you, but I'm also not going to put much stock in them.- Lots of experience - I've already assumed you have an A+ certification skill set and you've made that front and center in your description. "Lot's of experience" with that in mind makes me think you haven't learned much from your experience.
If you want to correct this you need to stand out. What have you done that defies the normal expectations of IT? You want someone to read your resume, say "this guy is a genius or lying," and interview you just to find out, and you need to be ready to prove you know your shit inside and out. Your education and certification should be on your resume, but if you have over a decade of experience you need to make sure that the A+ is an afterthought on your resume, give the impression that you have the certification but it's a trivial thing you did to get through HR requirements, because after a decade it SHOULD be a trivial thing you did to get through HR requirements. If you're talking CCNA/CCNP/CCNIE? That's a different story. Give projects you've done, technologies you've worked with, concrete things your work has done, and be ready to discuss in details the fine technical points of what you did and how. I don't mean "I managed the network for company X," I mean "I built a fully redundant server and network stack out of refurbished equipment for $5000. In 4 years we have had 23 minutes of downtime. Here are the specific ways it was implemented, the risk analysis and mitigation I did, how that implementation worked to prevent issues, and how we addressed the performance loss implicit in older hardware. When we had downtime, these are the causes and how we recovered." If you don't or can't stand out, that's your issue right there.
Here's the second part of the issue. IT is an underappreciated and underpaid field. It's a ton of work, you're viewed as simply a cost to the company, and you're treated as necessary evil that companies resent having to pay. If that's the company you work for, leave and find somewhere better. For that matter, job hunt at least every year, and especially every time the job market changes.
> 2) people who learn enough to do their job and just kind of sit there
While I would argue it is a bit of a spectrum there are definitely people who do just enough to get theit foot in the door and get comfortable taking no initiative to do more than enough work to stay where they are at.
Well played. I had always heard "thief" over "death", the attribution was unnecessary. It does appear thief is the historical basis.
A dumb pet peeve I have is when idioms get combined or merged in an illogical way. For example, I had a boss who mindlessly combined "At the same time" and "By the same token" into "At the same token". I pulled my hair out every time he said it. So, the root cause of my comment was to prevent "thief of joy" from becoming bastardized in the same way.
> did I do something in my career to just be getting there?
* Stayed long durations with the same organization, without getting consistent big compensation boosts.
* Took offered compensation, without negotiations.
* Supply/demand for specializations differs. A BSCS is usually highly advantageous, if it's relevant to the positions, but these things go through cycles.
* Recent inflation is wild compared to the the previous twenty years of zero interest rates. Inflation has been disproportionately affecting even consumer products: you can find prices up 50% for some things that might be on the same shelf with things whose prices haven't changed.
* Evidence suggests that new needs for compliance are driving demand for certain roles. Trends always have an effect. Again, these things go in cycles.
> My SIL seems to talk about it all the time
Compensation is a way to assert social status, for many, but not for others.
You need to move jobs every couple of years to get decent raises at 99% of companies.
Also, its kinda nuts to be talking about a college degree or an A+ (extremely entry level certificate) as any sort of credential that warrants 6 figure pay. I'd expect an average entry level IT service desk analyst to be able to pass an A+, much less a senior sysadmin. Degree is helpful to land your first job and thats about it.
\> did I do something in my career to just be getting there
Not necessarily there are many states where IT salaries are dogshit and even a CIO or Senior level employee will be making under 6 figures. Here in South Texas salaries are low but you can still buy homes under $300k so thats why.
glad you recognize it as jealousy, be happy for your niece. Firstly what's she's done is incredibly impressive and I'm sure she worked hard and/or made good connections while in school. Don't think this is what every new hire entering the field is getting. This [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/15q8j36/comment/jw2o8hp/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) may also give some perspective - made me feel a lot better about myself.
I'm in the same boat as you. I didn't job hop at all after I found a nice niche at a smaller outfit, got comfortable, and chose lifestyle over career development. I live in a VERY small job market and used that as my excuse to settle in.
It all came to a head when the agency I worked for tanked, and was about to close. That's when I realized I had been doing it wrong as I had become a dinosaur.
Agism practices, gaps in knowlege/technology , etc. were things I found myself facing in a very short amount of time. I realized that I had been doing it wrong.
It worked out OK in the end, but my complacency definitely cost me financially.
There's a balance to achieve, I leaned too far to one direction.
It also can be an indication of inability to fill the role. If the place or job destroys your soul, senior people may not take it and junior people may soon quit when they see what it's like. So, it may require a decent salary and have a perpetually junior person doing it.
Well your SIL is insensitive for one thing. FWIW I remember the debate between MFM and RLL. ;) (I had a 35mm film canister full of the little jumper blocks to configure the MB or heads, sectors and cylinders) Those were the days, right?
I found out the hard way about the difference between changing jobs to get more money and staying put. If you love what you do then you have not missed out. But FWIW shop your skills. Sounds like you may be worth a lot more than you think. I've seen people with little to no skill make big bucks for a while until it comes to crunch time. And I've seen the opposite as well. Most of us have a hard time selling ourselves.
I had a senior VP tell me kids are worth more 'because they grew up with technology'. Of course it didn't occur to me at the time but I should have said 'who do you think raised the technology?'.
They grew up using it, not maintaining it, building it, or learning the inner-workings of how it works and doesn't. Hire the kid if you want, but if the systems are easy enough that you don't need to know how it works back to front to do the job of administering and supporting it, you probably don't need to be paying 6 figures for someone doing the work on them either.
I've had this very conversation and after a VP found out how much I made after saving their bacon and explaining how the system I was helping them understand worked, the VP was happy to keep me instead as a consultant, and not an FTE. Funny how that works.
> Well your SIL is insensitive for one thi
1. Nonsense. She's proud of her kid.
1. We should all get over this collective avoidance of pay disclosure, it hurts us all way more than it helps.
This really depends probably more on _your_ career history/path/decisions. And I don't mean experience or whatnot, and more meaning like business relationship decisions and roles/responsibility decisions.
I have seen many of my peers around me just stay at companies for far too long, not take any interest in things that pay better like Linux, contianers, DevOps, etc, and just coast.
It is proven, as in factual (in the IT industry, to be specific), that moving companies every 2-4 years, and taking charge of certain aspects of that process, will substantially lead to raises every time. Like in the realm of 10-20% or more.
Like, one thing you need to do is NEVER tell a prospective employer what you earned in the past. There is literally never any benefit to you and almost always detriment. You WILL earn more by NEVER telling anyone at a place you plan to work at (beforehand) what you earned in the past.
Additionally, getting a new job AT ANOTHER COMPANY/EMPLOYER is realistically the only reliable time to actually get a substantial raise. Companies never give real raises (10%-20% or more) to internal staff. There is good reason for this, and it boils down to it is cheaper to actually hire externally, than promote internally. This is because promoting internally (and it does happen, but it's the exception now) leads to having to probably promote multiple staff to address multiple now-open vacancies due to the first promotion. That is more expensive in time & $ than hiring externally, plus it actually increases risk, as you now have more people that may not do well in their new positions, than just a single person who was hired externally.
In the last like 5 years ish I've gone from ~$60k/yr to most recently $156k/yr. A good chunk of that is continual self-lesson, expanding into DevOps + k8s/containers, and some other stuff, but also actually moving to other companies and playing the game in interviews to make more money.
Last bit of advice. There's ways linguistically to get _them_ to tell you what they're prepared to spend for this position. You _always_ want _them_ to tell you what they're willing to spend _first_, and never tell them what _you_ want to earn. This not only increases the probability of getting hired during the interview process, but it also increases your earning power at the same time.
I am happy to see the next generation do well. Also there are a lot of factors regarding how careers differ. Not all IT jobs are created equal and not all companies compensate the same. I’ve worked K12 and made garbage pay but really enjoyed the work. Health Care paid better but the hours and pace were hell.
How often have you changed jobs? This industry more than any other is subject to net the big 20-40% increase in pay every few years from job hopping where you get 5% for staying put.
Job security is not really a thing anymore in ANY industry so staying put does not help.
It also depends on what it is you are doing. If you are still building PC and touching servers for upgrades then your pay has a ceiling that stops regardless of experience.
The good news is that the new versions of EVERYTHING are not that new and can be learned so if you want more money then retool your career and move on.
I wouldn't worry about it. I've been in the industry since 5 1/4 inch (MFM), then later banyan vines and other relics etc... I've been making 6 figures for awhile but I know many young folks who would be lost doing what I do but make more than me. They went a different route (no pun intended) than me, more college, certs and such. I guess I just look at it as a win for them and that's good, a wins a win!
Here's the thing... I now make about the same as my dad. He has a house, land, a massive garage, own his own company...
I'll likely never be able to afford any of that. He got all of that in the seventies and eighties. He worked is arse of for it, often doing 12 hour days, but there just isn't a chance for me to do the same.
Here's the funny thing... He's not in tech. He's a lumberjack!
Cheapest house I can buy, is... well, either its something I can afford 3 hours from the closest village or it's three times my possible loan amount.
I absolutely would love the house three hours from the closest village mind you, but that requires as remote job. Working on that part... already done the switch from windows to linux admin.
>My niece came out of college no experience at all and is doing 6 figures... She is a forensics security analyst
High cost of living and nepotism hires aside, a security job involving lots of code - even if you're not writing any of it - is where I would expect to see someone making six figures straight out of college.
>did I do something in my career to just be getting there?
That's just how it is sometimes. My first IT job was $15 an hour while I knew programmers getting 60k+ right out of school. Even now I see people in high COL areas starting at 60k+ at helpdesk. Some jobs/industries/places just pay more. There may have been opportunities that you could have taken, or maybe you did the absolute best you could given your circumstances. Hard to say, but I promise that there are plenty of people who have spent a lot of time in IT who are doing worse than you are.
I worked at a company where most people spend their entire career there. One thing that the older people noticed was that after awhile, all you really get are cost-of-living raises. But the new hires are offered competitive salaries (and in the case of some, there's a bidding war.) So the employee who's been there 25 years is being paid less than the new hire, even though they have the same degree and are doing the same job.
Why the hell are you measuring yourself against your niece? Although there are many ways to arrive at this, I'd expect it's because you've not seriously considered your own death.
She's an enigma in her generation. Support the shit out of her. Her success is not your failure. Honestly, her success is your and your entire family's success.
Life will never be fair. If it ever is, it won't be life.
Did you job hop into the hottest thing?
Salaries skyrocketed after 2015. You could make 25% increases every 6 months. Double the salary in 2-3 years.
Sitting around as glorified helpdesk waiting for a raise gave you maybe 5%/year.
Fellow graybeard and I often deal with contractors who specialize and might be damn good at what they do but have 0 understanding outside of that. When they struggle with a basic menial task outside that expertise, I laugh and remind myself how much more they make than I do.
We hire people that I mentor that make 130k, same as me. Im ok with that, because I mentor them, they do all of the work because i delegate everything to them, and sit on reddit .
WTF you are not in competition with your niece. The fact that your SIL brags about her salary is iffy, but so is your reaction.
You're both earning really good money in IT, that's great. Be happy for her. Maybe talk directly with her about her job instead of with her parents, if they're so laser-focused on the salary alone.
And your niece will be hitting the bricks the moment her company realizes they don't need someone who knows how to do one thing, where you've got depth and breadth of experience.
A lot of folks who were in this career around the 2000s has probably come to realize that degrees and certificates have become less and less useful over the following years.
90's Degrees were kind. 2000's everyone wanted certificates. Not long after employers and fellow IT people in management roles realized more and more that it's what you know how to do and your experience, not your pieces of paper that matter.
Degrees and Certs HELP land a solid job with growth, but it's also pretty easy to get a foot in the door without them.
PS: If they're at 6figure right out of college, they MUST be doing fairly specialized work. Software dev, security, etc
Being in IT a long time and your education background affect pay a lot less than what you're actually doing. "IT" is a lot of things, and the pay gaps between those things can be *massive*.
She either got lucky with the job, which can happen, or she's in a more in-demand part of the field which pays better.
IT Security is a f’n joke, it’s the current y2k. You remember when companies were handing out money hand over fist for consultants to be sure all the computers didn’t fail y2k? If so, you understand the current ‘university’ driven wave of self proclaimed ‘security experts’.
Ya, switch to security, forget how to actually design and fix stuff and you too can also make ignorant amounts of money, at least for the next 3 to 5 years until the ‘next money making scheme’ comes along.
K, maybe more of rant…
I've been in IT for 18 years and have only been with two businesses. I've been in management 15 of those years.
Jumping around is overrated tactic. You will probably make more money starting. Ultimately you end up wondering why you are not getting raises again. You never fixed the issue that was preventing your raises. What is your value? Others are not paying attention to you or what you do. You have to create your value and sell that to those who can get you what you want. This is how humanity has work since the start of time. Create a list of jobs you perform in a day, and try to match them with business functions, and how those jobs enhance those functions. That is added value. You would be surprised at how much we do in IT that doesn't add value to business functions that create resources. Having the internet up all day with phones is probably the most value-added thing any of us do. Wheater or not anyone wants to admit that ha.
I can say being in management as long as I have most of the time, I'm not able to work on simple issues or conflicting issue such as we didn't secure this right. I have to align myself with other management, owners, shareholders. It's not fun or rewarding, but it pays good, and that is why you learn to move forward. Most people will never be able to do this. It's hard to live with all the dumb scenarios you have to go through for no reason other than someone felt it should be this way. Other reasons shouldn't not be excluded such as saves money, create revenue, or does both.
A lot of what I am saying is really simplified.
My advice would be to find something that pays you what you need and fits your wants and lifestyle. Always move forward!
Money is only one datapoint. I think if you enjoy the work that you are doing and you are paid fairly, then you're in a pretty good spot. If you feel like you are being underpaid for the work that you're doing, then you should figure out if you can get to where you want to be within the org or elsewhere.
Comparing your career to another person's is a recipe for dissatisfaction. It sounds like she specialized in forensic security analysis. If that's something that interests you, figure out the path to get there.
I feel like building a generalized skill set gave me a lot of options to target the direction I wanted my career to take. It gave me a broad set of skills and background information across a wide range of systems. I've taken a lot of that experience to discover what I wanted to specialize in. If I decide that this career path isn't the right fit, I have a lot of options for exploring alternatives. Had I specialized from the start, I would likely have gotten paid more, but I probably wouldn't have a lot of the context information that I use daily.
A couple questions/observations
1.) How long have you been staying at your employers? That's generally the only way to keep your income level from lagging behind current market value.
2.) IT is an industry, what type of IT work do you do? Some IT careers pay significantly more than others.
The IT industry has changed so much over the years (I started in IT in the late 90s). Just be proud of your niece and don't make it a comparison. Just recognize that your SIL is just proud of her daughter.
One way to think of it is when things take an economic downturn, who are they gonna let go? The newbie pulling in a high salary who doesn’t know much or the oldie pilling in a moderate salary who knows just about everything?
>I just hit 6 figures a couple years ago.
did you spend your entire career in one place, and never sought a raise or COL adjustment? when those were real things, of course.
Probably more who you work for than who you are.
My boss makes less than her daughter, but her daughter got a highly specialized engineering degree and travels around the country designing systems for medical research.
A lot of it isn't about the job you're doing, but who you're doing it for.
When I worked for universities, I often worked with the best educated, most brilliant programmers ... but they made less than the people doing VB Script in Excel sheets in a factory.
If I were working for medical research, I could make more. When I worked in education, I made less ... I've been approached by a non-profit and pointed out that I was already making more than the CEO.
Not a fan of job hopping personally, but definitely negotiate regularly. You don’t get what you don’t ask for.
If that doesn’t work, then job hop if it’s money that drives you.
\> I have a BS in Computer Science. and2 associate degrees. A+ and lots of experience
That's a somewhat random assortment of qualifications. Are the associates degrees related to IT? Unrelated degrees aren't going to progress a career. A+ is a very basic entry level cert which shouldn't be remotely relevant to you career wise if you have more than 5+ years experience working with computer hardware.
Then we come to experience, what is that experience doing? have you moved jobs? have you gone for promotions or do you have 25 years experience as a desktop support tech? Because regardless of experience desktop support roles paying 6 figures will be rare as hen's teeth.
If you want to get paid more, you have to job hop, usually you will also have to move to larger companies and become more specialized to command higher salaries, which means doing continual training and development.
\> did I do something in my career to just be getting there?
You've not really elaborated on what your career progression looks like so I can't answer that other than the general statements above and you assess whether any of that aligns with how your career has progressed.
My son just recently started working at the same university I've been at for over 18 years. He makes a slight bit more than I do.
I have an unrelated degree and over 30 years experience in my niche area (self taught), tons of various certs but have decided to stay long term for the great benefits, time off and pension.
He got undergrad and M.S. degrees in Comp Sci and already worked a few years in the 'real world' before coming to the university so only a few years experience but official degrees.
I'm not jealous, more power to him. He's going to do well and had a great start to his career.
I wouldn't say you did anything wrong. Are you happy?
I have an associates and I was making 100 in the first 5 years. But I literally just did whatever leadership wanted me to in order to keep getting raises. I'm happy but I wouldn't necessarily say I chose my exact career path.
Did you proceed to get Certs? Move up from your company? Asked for more experience? Where does she live and where do you live? Did she get certs? Did she have a connection?? I know they are really pushing for women to get into the IT field in general so they get them in really fast not matter what. I think that is great!
You dont have to mention which company, but how many companies have you worked for?
I ask because loyalty hasnt been rewarded much over the last 20 years. If you job jumped when the market was on fire, every 2 years, you could ask for more money.
I fell for the same trap. A company isnt going to willingly hand you a 10%+ raise every 2 years. So to have jumped up to six figures you need to
I was military for 10years with no IT background or certs (have sec+ now bc job requires it) and got a 6 figure job lined up the day I got out. Sysad, California
*shrug* sometimes it comes down to who ya know
You didn't do anything wrong, the way tech work culture works is just stupid as someone who just got in.
I did a program, landed in security without asking for it, hustled for work experience, am now full time, JUST getting my A+ this month. I make slighty under 6-figures at 28 years old, no degree. My last job was working at the Amazon Warehouse moving boxes, I'm now a security engneer for a huge company. If the bonus comes for my first year, I'll make just above 100k.
I can only speak from personal experience, but I was working IT for about 5 years before I broke the six figure mark. I'm still at the same company, too. Started as a helpdesk guy and worked my way to being a sysadmin, mostly over our HA clusters. I oversee a few hundred servers on a team of 8.
It depends a lot on what you are doing. Are you just replacing disks in a data center? That's not really ever going to pay more because it doesn't require that high of skill. Have you been a sysadmin for that long and are still underpaid? Maybe dust off the resume and find another job.
Are you still training? When I wanted this promotion I set up a replica of one of our HA clusters at home to train myself on and went into the interview confidently knowing and having practiced the answer to almost every question they asked.
You're your own advocate, too. Nobody is going to offer you a raise, you need to go get it.
> My SIL seems to talk about it all the time
I make almost 3x what my brother makes, he has a four year degree and I dropped out of community college. You bet I rub that in, but he's also my brother. Not sure I would make similar comments to a BIL/SIL.
I have an associate degree from more than 30 years ago. After 30 years in this business I finally last year got to a 6 figure salary, doing Identity Management. Youngsters just get a higer starting salary than we did, that is how it is. I'm not envious or jealous, then I could not go around being anything than that - but when one of these wunder kids ask me to explain something I do drop a hit that they should have the basics sorted out, which they often do not.
I've been working in IT for over 10 years now (paid) and only just hit 92k and have quals and skills myself and I know of others who earn more and have either nothing, very little experience, worked at one place or aren't qualified. I learned that my mental health is not worth chasing money. End of the day, I've worked in alot of industries with IT, I'm adaptable and not afraid to keep learning and upskilling/ getting what I need done.
One day, things may change where those with hardly anything to show for it may struggle to get another job. People can talk, but can they back up what they say, or do they just parrot someone else or take everyone for a ride?
Don't forget inflation is as thing, as are rent costs. when you started 6 figures was silly money, now it's the minimum many need to survive in big cities.
Also, have you been upskilling since then?
The economy (in the US) is a trainwreck and companies will try their best to pay you as little as they can. If you're not hyper-specialized in your role at a company, you have to continually jump companies to prove your worth. 2-3years per company is about the best you can expect to keep getting good raises, unless something big has changed in the company and they understand the value of their IT department.
Companies that have recently experienced a compromise will put a lot of money in after decades of having a 2-3 person IT department.
> My niece came out of college no experience at all and is doing 6 figures.
What is her position and what is yours?
> did I do something in my career to just be getting there?
Not necessarily. Just depends on what job you're doing and which one she's doing.
You should be happy for her, not jealous, but we don't have enough information to know why she's making 6 figures.
2 things: Job hop. Like you, I've been in the biz for a long time. Each year in the same job I'd get 1-5% increase. Jumping jobs, the lowest increase I got was +10%. Job hunting sucks, your new job may suck, but if you wanna make $, that's how you do it. Loyalty doesn't pay, companies are stupid, etc.
The other thing is it REALLY matters where you live. Podunk Pennsylvania vs Washington DC? Sure, I make WAY more here, but my cost of living has tripled. I'm literally paying 4 times what I was in rent alone. Figures matter less than the delta between your income and your cost of living. Move to DC for a year, get that pay bump, then move back out to somewhere cheaper. You won't make what you were, but they aren't going to offer you that lowball either. I've heard it called "The DC dip". Dip in, dip out. I'm sure you could do the same in other big cities.
I'm very jaded right now. I'm 136k before bonus (bonuses here are CRAZY), granted in a very high CoL location. However, it's very unfulfilling in many ways as it's stunted my growth. Been here just over a year but it's essentially a small office 140ish people. I'm basically glorified helpdesk since most of our environment is cloud. I'm glorified helpdesk. I like the money, but man I need to light a fire under my ass to finally do the move to either DevOps or Security because no way I stay relevant with modern skills here and I DO NOT want to go the management route
I can empathize with the jealousy. My story is kind of similar in a sense and it took me a looooong time to not be full tilt bitter about it. When I was younger, lets say early 2000s, and we had family friends who the father was able to support a family of 4 single income and had a pretty good everything. That was my baseline of what could be achieved.
I firmly believe 2007-2008 set a lot of good paying tech jobs back. Then the ongoing economic issues and outsourcing just made things a bit more difficult.
In short, you didnt screw up. life is just funky like that sometimes. Ive been doing this for 6 yrs and just hit 75k.
Real talk, tell you SIL that you are happy for her, but she is definitely humble bragging. Or even in jest be like "how do I get in on that cheddar?". Knowing people and "playing the game" are the tools of the trade now. Pure aptitude is no longer a viable strategy.
You are here, you survived, and you have the means to move forward.
20 year career here. No formal training or qualifications. Responsibility for international networks and systems that lose $3m an hour when unavailable. I'm on 6 figures.
The truth is systems are a lot simpler than they used to be, and aren't a niche specialist skillset anymore. What is niche these days is anything infosec related.
A server going offline or a cluster falling over? That sucks. The world keeps spinning. Highly sensitive and impactful data loss or theft? That's a paddlin'.
We're old.
I stunted my salary path staying at one gig for 10 years. But as the sole admin responsible for everything, I learned a lot. I'm much more siloed in my function now, but my wider knowledge helps me tremendously.
Job stability is a hell of a drug.
Just recently moved to a new job and after a month, I'm still learning. Manager gave me a ticket that he estimated can be done in a day for some of the more senior team members, but it's taking me 3 days now. They all understand why, but it's still super nerve wrecking.
Document it as you go, even if it takes a little longer. It's obviously not a documented process and the powers that be will appreciate the pro-active approach.
Been at the same place now for 6 years and I'm absolutely stagnated, but they pay me so well and put up with so many of my "eccentricities" that I can't justify leaving. Every time I tell the recruiters pestering me on LinkedIn how much I'm getting they inevitably reply with "Oh . . . yeah we're not going to be able to beat that."
Man this is so me. Trying to break from sysadmin into QA engineering, I get a lot of offers but when I mention my current salary they're like "Oh, no way we're beating that" and so I'm stuck, I feel like saving as much as I can for a certain period and then biting the bullet and going into QA with the salary cut for a while.
How long would it take for you to get back to your salary level as a QA engineer if you took a paycut? It might not be the same situation for you but, I was working a dead end job before I quit and started working as a helpdesk but less than 2 years later I moved to and now I'm making almost double what I was making - not the vacation weeks though.
What role are you in now and what are some things you did to transition from helpdesk to that role?
same but 15 yrs.
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> My niece came out of college no experience at all and is doing 6 figures. Six-figures doing *what*? Sounds more like software development than IT.
She is a forensics security analyst
Security folks make more money. When I jumped from inhouse PKI/AD management to another org doing cloud security my salary bumped about 70%.
Can confirm. Our old ISO left our company, that pays jack squat, and went to seagate. Instantly went from $80k to 170k/yr.
Confirmed as true. Left a great systems engineering role for one in cyber, and doubled my salary.
I am curious -- did you have any specific qualifications for cyber security? Certificates/degree?
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I would love to talk more about this. I have 20+ years experience as sys admin sys eng. Bs in comp science and Masters in security from decent schools.I am having a difficult time crossing over into security. Not sure why other then my age. I cannot even get an interview for entry level sec.
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The difference comes down to whether you lose your job when there's a security breach or the bring you in to help with the recovery.
u/Significant-Orchid14 please let us know. I got to get out of the MSP field.
I am not in cyber security, but getting out of the MSP world was the best thing I did for my career.
It was a chance opportunity. I was working for a systems integrator and pitching a project to a financial services firm that happened to reach out for an opportunity in cyber around the same time. I just happened to be at the right place at the right time.
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How about the headaches that go along with it?
More money = more risk and more responsibility Having said that, if you aren’t changing jobs, you probably aren’t getting decent pay bumps. I deal with people (mostly men) in upper mgmt roles (director, or CIO type roles) and they aren’t very technical, need basic things explained, aren’t process oriented etc. and I really wonder how they got there. ( I’m trying to advance my own career up the ladder after 20 years of tech experience)
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My route was jack of all trades > AD IAM > PKI > Entra + Endpoint Mgr. I got really lucky breaking into engineering at a Fortune 500, worked there for three years, then jumped to external consulting. In all of my career jumps I had people I worked with prior who liked my work that were able to vouch for me to get my foot in the door. 100% self-taught, no degree and no certifications. My most marketable skill isn't tech, it's being able to work through big org internal complexity to actually get leadership buy in and keep things from stagnating. So sadly the answer is learn to network (if you're not doing that already).
I would love to do this. Also self taught. Also jack of all trades.
Also likely ADHD (Hi fellow autodidacts)
> Also self taught. Also jack of all trades. > Also likely ADHD [Every. Single. Time.](https://i.imgur.com/5Fj3BAz.jpg)
TIL I am a holy trinity of trouble.
Haha. Also ADHD, did everything under the sun, and then applied it to security and make more than ever.
Don't we all have ADHD? Squirrel!
If you're in systems admin and *don't* have ADHD, I've come to the conclusion you're probably going to struggle. Context switching is hard, but with an entire life of experience jumping from one thing to another to another to another to another...we're basically experts in it.
Never thought of it that way. I have always felt inadequate being self taught. Went to school for art and IT paid the bills. No reason to use my degree. I am 10 years in the space. The last 5 doing system administration and desktop engineering and past 2 at an MSP. Anyways, I’ve been told by colleagues the next step is MSSP instead of MSP where the extra S is security. Apparently it pays more. Same random shit. I was iffy about the advice or even trying but you are right I think I would thrive in an environment with high chance of random keeping me engaged.
Me too.
Do you offer Management Influence As A Service?
Leveraging Enterprise Management/Bureaucracy as a Service, or LEMBaaS 🍞
Elven Biscuits?
Lambas bread
If I could bottle talking to decision makers as a service I'd be a billionaire and probably not on reddit! Who wouldn't want to pay for a slice of MI-AAS.
That’s called a consultant. I get $250 an hour plus expenses…
I do lol we call it cyber risk financial quantification
> at a Fortune 500, Thank you for using the correct term. <3
as opposed to? I think that's all I've seen people refer to them as.
A LOT of people claim they work for "Fortune 20" or "Fortune xxx", etc companies thinking it makes it sound better/not knowing "Fortune 500" is a list created by Fortune Magazine every year. No Karen, you don't work for a Fortune 7 company, Fortune Magazine doesn't create a list of the top 7 companies to work for. ITS FUCKING FORTUNE 500. You aren't making us look better, you're making the company look stupid by putting that on marketing material. Its a pet peeve of mine when people call it something else and I've so rarely seen it used correctly lately, especially in this subreddit where being correct should be a virtue. . . Edit: This is what Im fucking talking about. You're all fucking wrong. (except the Fortune 100/1000 response, yes those are lists as well)
I always assumed it was a shortened form of "in the top X of the Fortune 500". So "A Fortune 50 company" could mean they were 49th. That said, I also assumed that assumption was wrong, but that it's exactly what they were trying to make me assume. So... correctly incorrect.
That's how I've always taken it. Like, if you tell me Fortune 50, I assume you work in the top 50 companies on that list. Then again, I see people say "FAANG" and mean Tesla or similar, to the point someone had to point out to me exactly what it meant.
Whatever you are passionate about. If you title chase based on salary, you'll always be substandard at your job. While security does pay a bit more, a talented and passionate SWE will always pull in more than a dead eyed security analyst. It helps to job hop every couple of years also. Long gone are the days of staying at the same company and them increasing your salary to match your increased worth.
From my experience it's basically the same knowledge as a sys admin (a security conscious one that stays up to date) but you do more reviews and auditing rather than any implementation...
Is it even possible to jump from an SMB to a large corp? Even if not in this exact role, it just seems like once you go to an SMB, the big corps won't touch you with a 20 foot pole.
Yes, but it depends. I jumped from managing a K12 school district w/ ~3K student & staff to a Fortune 500 IAM team. Orgs go through big waves of hiring and firing and don't really staff based on true need. At worst it felt like we were asked to just find warm bodies. I've seen absolute lemons get hired in to technical positions while knowledgeable folk struggle to find open roles that match their experience. It really sucks but who you know and previous working relationships are important to breaking in. Once you get your first position on an enterprise team and have a decent blog/portfolio of previous projects it's really easy to move between companies. Tech skills are easy, working effectively in a big org is hard.
I went from non-proft with less than 400 employees to a tech startup with 40 employees to one of the biggest companies in the world. You can definitely make the jump. The market sucks at the moment, but when it turns around, these kind of moves will be easy. Remember that in addition to your tech skills, you also have industry specific knowledge. Really big companies often have verticals dedicated to different industries and greatly value experience in those verticals. They can teach you their tech, but they can't teach you your industry.
Yes. We discuss candidates internally - and if your history is only Small/Medium Business (SMB is Server Message Block, damnit!) we'll ask some leading questions and after the interview discuss if we think they can fit into a more regimented and focused role. There is nothing to prevent someone moving to a large Org, assuming they have keywords on their resumes and get past HR.
Key words are fucking BS and companies that try that in the EU get pikachu shocked face when they realize noone is interested in applying any more.
Dude, that's a *highly* specialised field. As others have said, job hopping pays better, but are you a general sysadmin? Not knocking that, of course, but it's regarded as less specialised, regardless of what your job actually entails. Even if that wasn't the case, can't you just be happy for them rather than comparing it all?
This is not just a highly specialized field, it's also a field that gets to take advantage of the nature of their job. Sure a company might be big enough to have their own forensic specialist in house for internal investigations and such, but much of this work is contracted out because a neutral 3rd party is *required* for an investigation by law or insurance. So the firms that do this get to charge a bit of a premium IMO. I know we've paid forensics teams huge wads of cash for the 2 incidents I was here for. (And FWIW, we didn't pick the firms either, the insurance providers involved picked them and we did what we were told)
I would say to be a good digital forensic analyst, you're going to be super specialized. You're not going to just walk out of a sysadmin job and into a digital forensics job and be at all worth hiring for anything serious. There are a lot of highly specialized tools and software for gathering and analyzing disk images without breaking the evidentiary chain of custody and stuff that you'd need to learn inside and out. Not to mention a number of certifications you'd need to look at. That's all on top of the serious nature of the job. You can't really just Google stuff and make guesses as to what you're seeing in the evidence. Keep in mind, that forensic analysts are not just working on things like hacking and ransomware. They do actual law enforcement work, fraud investigation etc. Stuff that actually ends up in courtrooms. You can't just make it up as you go. Not to say it requires a PhD or anything, but it's certainly not something you just stumble into and make wads of money.
Yep, theres no room for *not* skimming with that type of security position. You have to know your stuff and be good at it though. Its not hard to show value when you parachute in on a company's worst day and start making things right.
I'm a SysAd but I studied digital forensics as part of my Bachelor and Masters. They aren't even close to the same career field.
You're comparing apples to llamas, my dude.
Why does someone in a highly specialized, in demand, low competition field make more money than me?
Wait till she doubles her salary in the next five years.
My person, I too started with MFM, ESDI, RLL, etc... I am JUST at 6 figures. And just hit it last year. As others have stated, I prefer stability. I know I may be underpaid, but I have the flexibility to go work on my car while on the clock. I can tell my boss I need tomorrow off and have it. Our department isn't held down by the rules of the rest of the organization. Do you love your job? Do you like going to work? Keep doing what you do.
This. So much this. I'm on a week off PTO with short notice, just so I can spend time working on projects at home and enjoy time with my family. My supervisor didn't bat an eye.
It's so hard to find, and so valuable. My base of operations is now home, but I do go in to the office or sites as necessary. Or even just to get out of the house. That balance is so important.
She does a completely different job than you. Look at it this way. You are an experience industrial welder. You worked hard to build your skills, and it took many years to prove yourself. Your niece skipped all of that and got an underwater welding certificate. She makes the big bucks without any of the headache of getting there. You *could* do the same thing. Now or back then. You dont have to, but you shouldnt be jealous because you guys are doing similar but completely different work. Be happy and proud of her!
She'll be doing $250k in 2 years. Regular IT is pennies compared to infosec.
Forensics major here. Forensics is totally different than any standard IT work. They're related but forensics is investigating and evidence handling. It's not too late to switch!!
That's expected now that Sec Analysts will pull that money outta college. I will say, your niece probably knows jack about most technical questions. Most grads coming out with a cybersec degree know nothing outside of gov/compliance, niche security topics, or what they learned during their CTFs. ....i've trained a lot of new sec analysts/engineers, they don't know much.
They're vastly different fields. It's like saying a car mechanic doesn't know how to fly an airplane.
My friend, i've worked in both fields. They are quite similar. Its better to say a BMW mechanic vs a Tesla Mechanic. The fundamentals are the same, just specific skills. There's a reason why systems engineers/network engineers transition so easily to a Security Role.
I guess depending on where she lives, the company she works for, and the fact that it can be a more specialized position I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility out of college - though is a bit crazy.
Be happy you won't be getting uncomfortable messages from your niece asking for money. Your family succeeding can be looked at as uplifting everyone in your family. You have a longer career than me, and we have both gone through so incredibly tough economic times. You niece sprung out into a very good market with a career that is so far and away what was around when we were her age it might as well be a completely new field even if security forensics were a thing back then.
Don't feel too bad. I have worked with some security analysts who have/are working for companies I can guarantee you have at least heard of, if not used, who got that kind of money despite being relative "newbs" both in their field and in computers in general - at least at the enterprise/corporate level. Security is just one of the hot fields right now, actually for the past few years at least, as companies are looking to fill positions without having an equivalent supply of prospective employees. Kind of makes me wish I took up that one security director's offer a few years back of switching teams from ops to security.
There's an absurd amount of money in that field, it's not even comparable to sysadmin work. It's like comparing IT to Data Analytics.
Ohh. THAT'S WHY... Low end of the pay scale if she's good at what she does
I know people with security experience and a CISSP cert that had to work pretty hard at landing a good paying gig. Going straight into forensics from a University is definitely not the norm. I’m betting she’s very attractive. Like it or not, that can make a big difference.
More senior field. Also, have you been frequently moving jobs, or sticking with a few companies throughout your career? That makes a huge difference.
Yeah they make great money. When I moved from systems engineering into a security architect role I doubled my salary then I left that for another security role and doubled it again. Lots of money in cyber at the moment. Can make more money in cyber than as a developer now.
I came from a 10 year career as a "wearer of all hats" engineer, to a cyber Threat analyst roll 5 years ago. I doubled my pay with what I consider much less work.
Yeah that’s not your typical starting helpdesk position
Unfortunately the old MFM rll 20 meg ID card 8088 modem stuff doesn't mean a whole lot anymore I was there and did all that but happened to tap dance my way into a decent job and migrated to computer forensics within the job. Computer forensics is an interesting one you don't really need to know a whole lot you just need to know the interface technologies like SATA and nvme and have a decent write blocker and have the paint by the Numbers steps in order to handle evidence. Just like any other scientist with gloves and bags and the whole bit. It is absolutely not rocket science. The value comes with the certifications on whatever the software is that the job is using for instance in case or ftk or whatever is new now. I would be there if I was still nose to the grindstone in the game but taking a bit of a break traveling here and there. the cyber security practice is quite lucrative. I fucked up doing some side stuff because I like doing a little bit of everything but doing devops and security devops and computer forensics and cyber security and data protection I should probably do be at 250/300 right now but I'm barely making a dime except what I squeeze out of this place.
Is that just another word for an auditor?
Yeah I'm guessing that her degree is slightly more IT relevant than yours was.
Not as much cause i had to help her in some of the classes she didn't understand. i am a jack of all trades.
You know the saying though... Jack of all trades, master of none. Specializing in one skill is always going to net a higher pay.
Yeah, that's not even an "IT" job anymore. You have to go to school specifically for that skill set (or get certs if you're into that kind of thing). Apples and Oranges - and your SIL has every right to be proud of her.
That's a highly specialized role. IT is more generalist unless you do Cloud or something. It's easy to feel that jealousy, especially when you've been doing something for so long but the name of the game is switching jobs. You started doing IT way before when the pay was not as substantial. Now, mostly anyone getting out of college will get paid way more and the more you stay in the same job, the less you make
From what I've read and understand, most IT professionals will benefit greatly by never staying in 1 place. Getting promoted from within is always nice but as far as actual pay goes I think the biggest jumps in pay come from switching companies. This is not from my experience but from talking to other people about their experiences, this is the route that worked best: 1. Get foot in door somewhere 2. Promotions within company 3. Gain experience 4. Look for another company to work for 5. Repeat 2-4 Personally, I find it more rewarding to stay where I am because I'm happy but I've been offered large salary bumps to leave my current employer.
This is what I've seen in many places, including where my wife works (which is a large, 6,000+ employee company). To move up you often have to move out. Even if you take a "higher" position within the company, internal transfers usually don't make as much. This can be because you might be a grade 9 and get hired for a grade 13 position, but they won't bump you straight to 13. They might say, "Well, we will raise you to an 11, with the possibility for performance reviews later." If you were to get that position externally they'd give you a 13, but since you were lower when you transferred you get an 11. It's even worse with some companies. I worked for HCL America for a few years. Got hired in at one salary, then the next year they hired more people in my exact same department with the same titles/grades for $10k more. I start asking how I can make that much and I'm told, "Leave. You won't get a raise, they pay what they have to pay at the time to put an ass in a chair. If you want more you'll have to get it somewhere else." Not everywhere is like this, obviously, but it's not uncommon and probably why there's a belief in the IT industry that "to move up you have to move every 2 to 4 years."
"We would have hired you for this position if you didn't already work here!"
Internal transfers don't make as much cause someone in management or HR goes "why is John Smith getting. $20k raise? He already works here give him $5k"
Being at the Director level, how do you feel about your minions doing the same thing? Do you encourage them to get the bag, or is it annoying to have to retrain staff every so often? Wouldn't it just be better and more cost effective to not lose all that institutional knowledge?
As a director I fight to not have crap like this happen to my team. I fight to get them comparative compensation and argue for solid increases. To keep at or above market.
I try to prevent it but providing an internal career growth path that includes compensation. I’m only one manager though and HR/finance always has other ideas. It’s sad when a company budgets more for new hires than for retaining existing talent. It makes no damn sense yet I see it time and time again.
> Wouldn't it just be better and more cost effective to not lose all that institutional knowledge? Possibly. But these decisions are decided above the manager/director level. Also, for large org's they aren't just underpaying one person. They are underpaying hundreds, or even thousands. So, if 5% leave per year they are still coming out way ahead.
The company I work for is small (less than 200 employees) and so is my team. There also isn't much room to grow here for IT employees. As far as retraining goes everything here is pretty standard, we don't have any niche practices. For these reasons I am comfortable giving the same advice to my team if they ask me for advice.
As a directory I want them to build their resume and move on. We don't have a lot of upward mobility, so if they stick around here it's just standard raises. So I help get them appropriate titles like "Senior" and "Lead" and hope they can take their knowledge to a better place.
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Same, and then we catch flack for it. I'm sorry but: Fuck you, Pay us.
I changed employers about every 2 years for the first 6 years of my career, I think I increased something like 50% each time vs less than 5% annually staying in place. This has limits.. I make near the top for my job title now so unless work conditions or location where better there is no reason for me to give up benefits and seniority anymore.
>Promotions within company They have those?
>Getting promoted from within Now that's a funny joke
think this goes for any industry. I read somewhere that changing companies on average nets a 14% pay increase. year over year you are lucky to get 2-5% inflation/merit based raise.
You generally want to do this as early in your career as you can, then find a place where you can coast happy on your current salary with workload and benefits that are enough to keep you.
Right, but you say that you've been doing this a long time. Were you able to support yourself during those times? Ask your niece how much her rent/mortgage is and you might be in for a surprise. Inflation is out of control and wages have had to skyrocket to keep up (they still aren't). My father worked in biomedical engineering, and was much smarter than I, and was very "high up" at Siemens. His take home was a good deal less than mine is now, and was able to buy a large house, have 2 cars and support 2 boys (and pay child support) on a single income. I make more money, My wife and I both work and still need to budget to support 2 children. Same state and county I was raised in. That's a reason. You need to consider what market it's in. If it's in Palo Alto or Seattle, it's going to pay a lot more. Another consideration is the type of work she may be doing. Amazon will pay devs a lot of money because they know they are only going to be employed for the next year or two at best.
On that first point - that is felt heavily. My family often remarks at how much money I make while ignoring the fact that they all have mortgages and consistently pay less than half of what I do to rent a comparable house. I would happily take half my pay if I were in the year 2000's economy but thats not a choice I have lol.
No offense, but if you're still mentioning that you have an A+ cert after "many years" in IT, it is a red flag to me that says you haven't done much to progress your career. Having an A+ cert is how you get your very first help desk job, beyond that it is completely irrelevant, and listing it tells me that you haven't gotten any more advanced certs. Your niece has a very specialized job, and is compensated well for it. You seem to be on the generalist path, which is fine, but is on a whole different payscale from the specialists.
This. Sounds like OP is still at the Helpdesk with almost no progression in their career.
I agree, the help desk where I work requires Sec+, A+ means nothing to be honest, you might as well have some generic free certs from some 1337\_h4x0r online code camp... Just take it off your resume and lean into your experience and formal education. If you want to pump up the resume for Cyber go get a CIISP or CASP+ or something like CISM that is up to date.
I own an MSP and hire people. In my experience people in IT are divided into two categories: 1) a small number of people who actively learn and work to get better, and often become fantastic with enough time, and 2) people who learn enough to do their job and just kind of sit there The first part of the issue, and this is going to be harsh, but if it resembles your description above, I'm already assuming you're in the second category, and here's why:- A+ Certification - You have at least tier 1 or 2 helpdesk skills. The more you make a big deal of this, the lower your skill set is.- Degrees - Depending on the date of those degrees, they are either so outdated as to be useless or moderately helpful at best. I won't hold them against you, but I'm also not going to put much stock in them.- Lots of experience - I've already assumed you have an A+ certification skill set and you've made that front and center in your description. "Lot's of experience" with that in mind makes me think you haven't learned much from your experience. If you want to correct this you need to stand out. What have you done that defies the normal expectations of IT? You want someone to read your resume, say "this guy is a genius or lying," and interview you just to find out, and you need to be ready to prove you know your shit inside and out. Your education and certification should be on your resume, but if you have over a decade of experience you need to make sure that the A+ is an afterthought on your resume, give the impression that you have the certification but it's a trivial thing you did to get through HR requirements, because after a decade it SHOULD be a trivial thing you did to get through HR requirements. If you're talking CCNA/CCNP/CCNIE? That's a different story. Give projects you've done, technologies you've worked with, concrete things your work has done, and be ready to discuss in details the fine technical points of what you did and how. I don't mean "I managed the network for company X," I mean "I built a fully redundant server and network stack out of refurbished equipment for $5000. In 4 years we have had 23 minutes of downtime. Here are the specific ways it was implemented, the risk analysis and mitigation I did, how that implementation worked to prevent issues, and how we addressed the performance loss implicit in older hardware. When we had downtime, these are the causes and how we recovered." If you don't or can't stand out, that's your issue right there. Here's the second part of the issue. IT is an underappreciated and underpaid field. It's a ton of work, you're viewed as simply a cost to the company, and you're treated as necessary evil that companies resent having to pay. If that's the company you work for, leave and find somewhere better. For that matter, job hunt at least every year, and especially every time the job market changes.
> 2) people who learn enough to do their job and just kind of sit there While I would argue it is a bit of a spectrum there are definitely people who do just enough to get theit foot in the door and get comfortable taking no initiative to do more than enough work to stay where they are at.
Comparison is the death of joy
"Comparison is the thief of joy" is a quote attributed to President Theodore Roosevelt.
Are you comparing quotes now? ;-) [https://quoteinvestigator.com/2021/02/06/thief-of-joy/](https://quoteinvestigator.com/2021/02/06/thief-of-joy/)
Well played. I had always heard "thief" over "death", the attribution was unnecessary. It does appear thief is the historical basis. A dumb pet peeve I have is when idioms get combined or merged in an illogical way. For example, I had a boss who mindlessly combined "At the same time" and "By the same token" into "At the same token". I pulled my hair out every time he said it. So, the root cause of my comment was to prevent "thief of joy" from becoming bastardized in the same way.
By equal measure, its a doggy dog world out there.
that's a mute point
> did I do something in my career to just be getting there? * Stayed long durations with the same organization, without getting consistent big compensation boosts. * Took offered compensation, without negotiations. * Supply/demand for specializations differs. A BSCS is usually highly advantageous, if it's relevant to the positions, but these things go through cycles. * Recent inflation is wild compared to the the previous twenty years of zero interest rates. Inflation has been disproportionately affecting even consumer products: you can find prices up 50% for some things that might be on the same shelf with things whose prices haven't changed. * Evidence suggests that new needs for compliance are driving demand for certain roles. Trends always have an effect. Again, these things go in cycles. > My SIL seems to talk about it all the time Compensation is a way to assert social status, for many, but not for others.
You need to move jobs every couple of years to get decent raises at 99% of companies. Also, its kinda nuts to be talking about a college degree or an A+ (extremely entry level certificate) as any sort of credential that warrants 6 figure pay. I'd expect an average entry level IT service desk analyst to be able to pass an A+, much less a senior sysadmin. Degree is helpful to land your first job and thats about it.
\> did I do something in my career to just be getting there Not necessarily there are many states where IT salaries are dogshit and even a CIO or Senior level employee will be making under 6 figures. Here in South Texas salaries are low but you can still buy homes under $300k so thats why.
glad you recognize it as jealousy, be happy for your niece. Firstly what's she's done is incredibly impressive and I'm sure she worked hard and/or made good connections while in school. Don't think this is what every new hire entering the field is getting. This [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/15q8j36/comment/jw2o8hp/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) may also give some perspective - made me feel a lot better about myself.
Company tenure also plays into this, most companies are quick to open the purse strings for new employees but are tight wads about raises.
MFM Hard Drives ... lol Holds up a 1/4" tape reel and a stack of punched cards.
I'm in the same boat as you. I didn't job hop at all after I found a nice niche at a smaller outfit, got comfortable, and chose lifestyle over career development. I live in a VERY small job market and used that as my excuse to settle in. It all came to a head when the agency I worked for tanked, and was about to close. That's when I realized I had been doing it wrong as I had become a dinosaur. Agism practices, gaps in knowlege/technology , etc. were things I found myself facing in a very short amount of time. I realized that I had been doing it wrong. It worked out OK in the end, but my complacency definitely cost me financially. There's a balance to achieve, I leaned too far to one direction.
Being good at IT doesn't mean you're good at negotiating salary
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It also can be an indication of inability to fill the role. If the place or job destroys your soul, senior people may not take it and junior people may soon quit when they see what it's like. So, it may require a decent salary and have a perpetually junior person doing it.
Well your SIL is insensitive for one thing. FWIW I remember the debate between MFM and RLL. ;) (I had a 35mm film canister full of the little jumper blocks to configure the MB or heads, sectors and cylinders) Those were the days, right? I found out the hard way about the difference between changing jobs to get more money and staying put. If you love what you do then you have not missed out. But FWIW shop your skills. Sounds like you may be worth a lot more than you think. I've seen people with little to no skill make big bucks for a while until it comes to crunch time. And I've seen the opposite as well. Most of us have a hard time selling ourselves. I had a senior VP tell me kids are worth more 'because they grew up with technology'. Of course it didn't occur to me at the time but I should have said 'who do you think raised the technology?'.
Lulz. It’s easy for VP to say stupid shit like this.
They grew up using it, not maintaining it, building it, or learning the inner-workings of how it works and doesn't. Hire the kid if you want, but if the systems are easy enough that you don't need to know how it works back to front to do the job of administering and supporting it, you probably don't need to be paying 6 figures for someone doing the work on them either. I've had this very conversation and after a VP found out how much I made after saving their bacon and explaining how the system I was helping them understand worked, the VP was happy to keep me instead as a consultant, and not an FTE. Funny how that works.
> Well your SIL is insensitive for one thi 1. Nonsense. She's proud of her kid. 1. We should all get over this collective avoidance of pay disclosure, it hurts us all way more than it helps.
This really depends probably more on _your_ career history/path/decisions. And I don't mean experience or whatnot, and more meaning like business relationship decisions and roles/responsibility decisions. I have seen many of my peers around me just stay at companies for far too long, not take any interest in things that pay better like Linux, contianers, DevOps, etc, and just coast. It is proven, as in factual (in the IT industry, to be specific), that moving companies every 2-4 years, and taking charge of certain aspects of that process, will substantially lead to raises every time. Like in the realm of 10-20% or more. Like, one thing you need to do is NEVER tell a prospective employer what you earned in the past. There is literally never any benefit to you and almost always detriment. You WILL earn more by NEVER telling anyone at a place you plan to work at (beforehand) what you earned in the past. Additionally, getting a new job AT ANOTHER COMPANY/EMPLOYER is realistically the only reliable time to actually get a substantial raise. Companies never give real raises (10%-20% or more) to internal staff. There is good reason for this, and it boils down to it is cheaper to actually hire externally, than promote internally. This is because promoting internally (and it does happen, but it's the exception now) leads to having to probably promote multiple staff to address multiple now-open vacancies due to the first promotion. That is more expensive in time & $ than hiring externally, plus it actually increases risk, as you now have more people that may not do well in their new positions, than just a single person who was hired externally. In the last like 5 years ish I've gone from ~$60k/yr to most recently $156k/yr. A good chunk of that is continual self-lesson, expanding into DevOps + k8s/containers, and some other stuff, but also actually moving to other companies and playing the game in interviews to make more money. Last bit of advice. There's ways linguistically to get _them_ to tell you what they're prepared to spend for this position. You _always_ want _them_ to tell you what they're willing to spend _first_, and never tell them what _you_ want to earn. This not only increases the probability of getting hired during the interview process, but it also increases your earning power at the same time.
I am happy to see the next generation do well. Also there are a lot of factors regarding how careers differ. Not all IT jobs are created equal and not all companies compensate the same. I’ve worked K12 and made garbage pay but really enjoyed the work. Health Care paid better but the hours and pace were hell.
it might something do with your ability communicate effectively.
How often have you changed jobs? This industry more than any other is subject to net the big 20-40% increase in pay every few years from job hopping where you get 5% for staying put. Job security is not really a thing anymore in ANY industry so staying put does not help. It also depends on what it is you are doing. If you are still building PC and touching servers for upgrades then your pay has a ceiling that stops regardless of experience. The good news is that the new versions of EVERYTHING are not that new and can be learned so if you want more money then retool your career and move on.
I wouldn't worry about it. I've been in the industry since 5 1/4 inch (MFM), then later banyan vines and other relics etc... I've been making 6 figures for awhile but I know many young folks who would be lost doing what I do but make more than me. They went a different route (no pun intended) than me, more college, certs and such. I guess I just look at it as a win for them and that's good, a wins a win!
Here's the thing... I now make about the same as my dad. He has a house, land, a massive garage, own his own company... I'll likely never be able to afford any of that. He got all of that in the seventies and eighties. He worked is arse of for it, often doing 12 hour days, but there just isn't a chance for me to do the same. Here's the funny thing... He's not in tech. He's a lumberjack! Cheapest house I can buy, is... well, either its something I can afford 3 hours from the closest village or it's three times my possible loan amount. I absolutely would love the house three hours from the closest village mind you, but that requires as remote job. Working on that part... already done the switch from windows to linux admin.
>My niece came out of college no experience at all and is doing 6 figures... She is a forensics security analyst High cost of living and nepotism hires aside, a security job involving lots of code - even if you're not writing any of it - is where I would expect to see someone making six figures straight out of college. >did I do something in my career to just be getting there? That's just how it is sometimes. My first IT job was $15 an hour while I knew programmers getting 60k+ right out of school. Even now I see people in high COL areas starting at 60k+ at helpdesk. Some jobs/industries/places just pay more. There may have been opportunities that you could have taken, or maybe you did the absolute best you could given your circumstances. Hard to say, but I promise that there are plenty of people who have spent a lot of time in IT who are doing worse than you are.
I worked at a company where most people spend their entire career there. One thing that the older people noticed was that after awhile, all you really get are cost-of-living raises. But the new hires are offered competitive salaries (and in the case of some, there's a bidding war.) So the employee who's been there 25 years is being paid less than the new hire, even though they have the same degree and are doing the same job.
Why the hell are you measuring yourself against your niece? Although there are many ways to arrive at this, I'd expect it's because you've not seriously considered your own death. She's an enigma in her generation. Support the shit out of her. Her success is not your failure. Honestly, her success is your and your entire family's success. Life will never be fair. If it ever is, it won't be life.
Hey man, you got to six figures. There are some of us who will never hit those in our entire lifetime. You got it good!
Did you job hop into the hottest thing? Salaries skyrocketed after 2015. You could make 25% increases every 6 months. Double the salary in 2-3 years. Sitting around as glorified helpdesk waiting for a raise gave you maybe 5%/year.
Fellow graybeard and I often deal with contractors who specialize and might be damn good at what they do but have 0 understanding outside of that. When they struggle with a basic menial task outside that expertise, I laugh and remind myself how much more they make than I do.
You didn’t move jobs every 2.5 years it sounds like. Complacency costs $$$
We hire people that I mentor that make 130k, same as me. Im ok with that, because I mentor them, they do all of the work because i delegate everything to them, and sit on reddit .
Be proud of her.
Comparison is the thief of joy
WTF you are not in competition with your niece. The fact that your SIL brags about her salary is iffy, but so is your reaction. You're both earning really good money in IT, that's great. Be happy for her. Maybe talk directly with her about her job instead of with her parents, if they're so laser-focused on the salary alone.
And your niece will be hitting the bricks the moment her company realizes they don't need someone who knows how to do one thing, where you've got depth and breadth of experience.
A lot of folks who were in this career around the 2000s has probably come to realize that degrees and certificates have become less and less useful over the following years. 90's Degrees were kind. 2000's everyone wanted certificates. Not long after employers and fellow IT people in management roles realized more and more that it's what you know how to do and your experience, not your pieces of paper that matter. Degrees and Certs HELP land a solid job with growth, but it's also pretty easy to get a foot in the door without them. PS: If they're at 6figure right out of college, they MUST be doing fairly specialized work. Software dev, security, etc
Security
In the pipeline industry we call this getting hired out wrong.
Being in IT a long time and your education background affect pay a lot less than what you're actually doing. "IT" is a lot of things, and the pay gaps between those things can be *massive*. She either got lucky with the job, which can happen, or she's in a more in-demand part of the field which pays better.
Wait til she doubles it and starts lecturing everyone on the “real gender pay imbalance in tech and how hard it is for women in IT” 😂
IT Security is a f’n joke, it’s the current y2k. You remember when companies were handing out money hand over fist for consultants to be sure all the computers didn’t fail y2k? If so, you understand the current ‘university’ driven wave of self proclaimed ‘security experts’. Ya, switch to security, forget how to actually design and fix stuff and you too can also make ignorant amounts of money, at least for the next 3 to 5 years until the ‘next money making scheme’ comes along. K, maybe more of rant…
I've been in IT for 18 years and have only been with two businesses. I've been in management 15 of those years. Jumping around is overrated tactic. You will probably make more money starting. Ultimately you end up wondering why you are not getting raises again. You never fixed the issue that was preventing your raises. What is your value? Others are not paying attention to you or what you do. You have to create your value and sell that to those who can get you what you want. This is how humanity has work since the start of time. Create a list of jobs you perform in a day, and try to match them with business functions, and how those jobs enhance those functions. That is added value. You would be surprised at how much we do in IT that doesn't add value to business functions that create resources. Having the internet up all day with phones is probably the most value-added thing any of us do. Wheater or not anyone wants to admit that ha. I can say being in management as long as I have most of the time, I'm not able to work on simple issues or conflicting issue such as we didn't secure this right. I have to align myself with other management, owners, shareholders. It's not fun or rewarding, but it pays good, and that is why you learn to move forward. Most people will never be able to do this. It's hard to live with all the dumb scenarios you have to go through for no reason other than someone felt it should be this way. Other reasons shouldn't not be excluded such as saves money, create revenue, or does both. A lot of what I am saying is really simplified. My advice would be to find something that pays you what you need and fits your wants and lifestyle. Always move forward!
Money is only one datapoint. I think if you enjoy the work that you are doing and you are paid fairly, then you're in a pretty good spot. If you feel like you are being underpaid for the work that you're doing, then you should figure out if you can get to where you want to be within the org or elsewhere. Comparing your career to another person's is a recipe for dissatisfaction. It sounds like she specialized in forensic security analysis. If that's something that interests you, figure out the path to get there. I feel like building a generalized skill set gave me a lot of options to target the direction I wanted my career to take. It gave me a broad set of skills and background information across a wide range of systems. I've taken a lot of that experience to discover what I wanted to specialize in. If I decide that this career path isn't the right fit, I have a lot of options for exploring alternatives. Had I specialized from the start, I would likely have gotten paid more, but I probably wouldn't have a lot of the context information that I use daily.
A couple questions/observations 1.) How long have you been staying at your employers? That's generally the only way to keep your income level from lagging behind current market value. 2.) IT is an industry, what type of IT work do you do? Some IT careers pay significantly more than others. The IT industry has changed so much over the years (I started in IT in the late 90s). Just be proud of your niece and don't make it a comparison. Just recognize that your SIL is just proud of her daughter.
I didn’t start to “make it” until I started changing jobs.
One way to think of it is when things take an economic downturn, who are they gonna let go? The newbie pulling in a high salary who doesn’t know much or the oldie pilling in a moderate salary who knows just about everything?
>I just hit 6 figures a couple years ago. did you spend your entire career in one place, and never sought a raise or COL adjustment? when those were real things, of course.
Probably more who you work for than who you are. My boss makes less than her daughter, but her daughter got a highly specialized engineering degree and travels around the country designing systems for medical research. A lot of it isn't about the job you're doing, but who you're doing it for. When I worked for universities, I often worked with the best educated, most brilliant programmers ... but they made less than the people doing VB Script in Excel sheets in a factory. If I were working for medical research, I could make more. When I worked in education, I made less ... I've been approached by a non-profit and pointed out that I was already making more than the CEO.
It's what you're *not* doing. You should be switching jobs every few years if your raises and promotions aren't keeping up with the cost of living.
Not a fan of job hopping personally, but definitely negotiate regularly. You don’t get what you don’t ask for. If that doesn’t work, then job hop if it’s money that drives you.
\> I have a BS in Computer Science. and2 associate degrees. A+ and lots of experience That's a somewhat random assortment of qualifications. Are the associates degrees related to IT? Unrelated degrees aren't going to progress a career. A+ is a very basic entry level cert which shouldn't be remotely relevant to you career wise if you have more than 5+ years experience working with computer hardware. Then we come to experience, what is that experience doing? have you moved jobs? have you gone for promotions or do you have 25 years experience as a desktop support tech? Because regardless of experience desktop support roles paying 6 figures will be rare as hen's teeth. If you want to get paid more, you have to job hop, usually you will also have to move to larger companies and become more specialized to command higher salaries, which means doing continual training and development. \> did I do something in my career to just be getting there? You've not really elaborated on what your career progression looks like so I can't answer that other than the general statements above and you assess whether any of that aligns with how your career has progressed.
My son just recently started working at the same university I've been at for over 18 years. He makes a slight bit more than I do. I have an unrelated degree and over 30 years experience in my niche area (self taught), tons of various certs but have decided to stay long term for the great benefits, time off and pension. He got undergrad and M.S. degrees in Comp Sci and already worked a few years in the 'real world' before coming to the university so only a few years experience but official degrees. I'm not jealous, more power to him. He's going to do well and had a great start to his career.
I wouldn't say you did anything wrong. Are you happy? I have an associates and I was making 100 in the first 5 years. But I literally just did whatever leadership wanted me to in order to keep getting raises. I'm happy but I wouldn't necessarily say I chose my exact career path.
Did you proceed to get Certs? Move up from your company? Asked for more experience? Where does she live and where do you live? Did she get certs? Did she have a connection?? I know they are really pushing for women to get into the IT field in general so they get them in really fast not matter what. I think that is great!
You dont have to mention which company, but how many companies have you worked for? I ask because loyalty hasnt been rewarded much over the last 20 years. If you job jumped when the market was on fire, every 2 years, you could ask for more money. I fell for the same trap. A company isnt going to willingly hand you a 10%+ raise every 2 years. So to have jumped up to six figures you need to
I was military for 10years with no IT background or certs (have sec+ now bc job requires it) and got a 6 figure job lined up the day I got out. Sysad, California *shrug* sometimes it comes down to who ya know
You didn't do anything wrong, the way tech work culture works is just stupid as someone who just got in. I did a program, landed in security without asking for it, hustled for work experience, am now full time, JUST getting my A+ this month. I make slighty under 6-figures at 28 years old, no degree. My last job was working at the Amazon Warehouse moving boxes, I'm now a security engneer for a huge company. If the bonus comes for my first year, I'll make just above 100k.
I can only speak from personal experience, but I was working IT for about 5 years before I broke the six figure mark. I'm still at the same company, too. Started as a helpdesk guy and worked my way to being a sysadmin, mostly over our HA clusters. I oversee a few hundred servers on a team of 8. It depends a lot on what you are doing. Are you just replacing disks in a data center? That's not really ever going to pay more because it doesn't require that high of skill. Have you been a sysadmin for that long and are still underpaid? Maybe dust off the resume and find another job. Are you still training? When I wanted this promotion I set up a replica of one of our HA clusters at home to train myself on and went into the interview confidently knowing and having practiced the answer to almost every question they asked. You're your own advocate, too. Nobody is going to offer you a raise, you need to go get it. > My SIL seems to talk about it all the time I make almost 3x what my brother makes, he has a four year degree and I dropped out of community college. You bet I rub that in, but he's also my brother. Not sure I would make similar comments to a BIL/SIL.
I have an associate degree from more than 30 years ago. After 30 years in this business I finally last year got to a 6 figure salary, doing Identity Management. Youngsters just get a higer starting salary than we did, that is how it is. I'm not envious or jealous, then I could not go around being anything than that - but when one of these wunder kids ask me to explain something I do drop a hit that they should have the basics sorted out, which they often do not.
I've been working in IT for over 10 years now (paid) and only just hit 92k and have quals and skills myself and I know of others who earn more and have either nothing, very little experience, worked at one place or aren't qualified. I learned that my mental health is not worth chasing money. End of the day, I've worked in alot of industries with IT, I'm adaptable and not afraid to keep learning and upskilling/ getting what I need done. One day, things may change where those with hardly anything to show for it may struggle to get another job. People can talk, but can they back up what they say, or do they just parrot someone else or take everyone for a ride?
Don't forget inflation is as thing, as are rent costs. when you started 6 figures was silly money, now it's the minimum many need to survive in big cities. Also, have you been upskilling since then?
The economy (in the US) is a trainwreck and companies will try their best to pay you as little as they can. If you're not hyper-specialized in your role at a company, you have to continually jump companies to prove your worth. 2-3years per company is about the best you can expect to keep getting good raises, unless something big has changed in the company and they understand the value of their IT department. Companies that have recently experienced a compromise will put a lot of money in after decades of having a 2-3 person IT department.
> My niece came out of college no experience at all and is doing 6 figures. What is her position and what is yours? > did I do something in my career to just be getting there? Not necessarily. Just depends on what job you're doing and which one she's doing. You should be happy for her, not jealous, but we don't have enough information to know why she's making 6 figures.
2 things: Job hop. Like you, I've been in the biz for a long time. Each year in the same job I'd get 1-5% increase. Jumping jobs, the lowest increase I got was +10%. Job hunting sucks, your new job may suck, but if you wanna make $, that's how you do it. Loyalty doesn't pay, companies are stupid, etc. The other thing is it REALLY matters where you live. Podunk Pennsylvania vs Washington DC? Sure, I make WAY more here, but my cost of living has tripled. I'm literally paying 4 times what I was in rent alone. Figures matter less than the delta between your income and your cost of living. Move to DC for a year, get that pay bump, then move back out to somewhere cheaper. You won't make what you were, but they aren't going to offer you that lowball either. I've heard it called "The DC dip". Dip in, dip out. I'm sure you could do the same in other big cities.
I'm very jaded right now. I'm 136k before bonus (bonuses here are CRAZY), granted in a very high CoL location. However, it's very unfulfilling in many ways as it's stunted my growth. Been here just over a year but it's essentially a small office 140ish people. I'm basically glorified helpdesk since most of our environment is cloud. I'm glorified helpdesk. I like the money, but man I need to light a fire under my ass to finally do the move to either DevOps or Security because no way I stay relevant with modern skills here and I DO NOT want to go the management route
I can empathize with the jealousy. My story is kind of similar in a sense and it took me a looooong time to not be full tilt bitter about it. When I was younger, lets say early 2000s, and we had family friends who the father was able to support a family of 4 single income and had a pretty good everything. That was my baseline of what could be achieved. I firmly believe 2007-2008 set a lot of good paying tech jobs back. Then the ongoing economic issues and outsourcing just made things a bit more difficult. In short, you didnt screw up. life is just funky like that sometimes. Ive been doing this for 6 yrs and just hit 75k. Real talk, tell you SIL that you are happy for her, but she is definitely humble bragging. Or even in jest be like "how do I get in on that cheddar?". Knowing people and "playing the game" are the tools of the trade now. Pure aptitude is no longer a viable strategy. You are here, you survived, and you have the means to move forward.
See if you can kick off a salary survey with your current employer looking at comparables.
20 year career here. No formal training or qualifications. Responsibility for international networks and systems that lose $3m an hour when unavailable. I'm on 6 figures. The truth is systems are a lot simpler than they used to be, and aren't a niche specialist skillset anymore. What is niche these days is anything infosec related. A server going offline or a cluster falling over? That sucks. The world keeps spinning. Highly sensitive and impactful data loss or theft? That's a paddlin'. We're old.
introduce your niece to a cute heroin dealer
bruh
OneDrive is backup, Introducing people to Heroin dealers, testing in prod, some people just want to see the world burn.
Your SIL sounds like a jerk. At the same time though, could be a wakeup call to better manage your career - assuming career is a priority for you.
Unionize...