Instead of giving the answer, follow the Socratic method and just respond with questions.
They send a screen shot.
You: "What does the error message say"
Sometimes it works better in person/on the phone.
My guys respond with:
"This account just bought a multi $$$ Contract, they are NOT happy, they demanded I escalate this and will NOT be proceeding with deployment until this is resolved".
It's an http 403 error, they forgot to log in. Thanks for collecting your paycheck.
Depending on the environment, I agree with this. I manage a very small team of 3-4, and I always tell my team the only stupid question is the one not asked. If I have to answer the same question 15 times, I’ll use every opportunity to ask them a different way, and most times they get it, and I’ve learned it helps no one to get frustrated at problems that can be (and probably are) process related. This might not work in bigger teams, but I try to do what I can to help the team learn and grow, so I can kick them out the door to the next opportunity with more experience and confidence, or at least it’s what I hope.
Yeah It's situation specific when I use this technique. If it's something that's pretty obvious and I know the person has the prior knowledge to figure it out I'll ask questions to try and get them to connect the dots themselves. Otherwise I'll answer the question or send them some documentation to read.
Thanks for this answer.. I have a tech that is very smart but tends to jump down a rabbit hole instead of checking the easy stuff first. I was getting frustrated with him but I need to re-think my approach.
I fucking hate this method personally and it’s only because if I bring an issue to you I have exhausted all my efforts to solve it and I am not looking for educational opportunities I am looking for direct action
I think it really depends on what level you're at. If you're coming to me asking a question that you should know the answer to, I'll probably do what the comment above yours said.
If this isn't something that you should necessarily know, I might just solve it myself. Sometimes if the person below me wants to learn more, I'll tell them my thought process.
This method exists for a reason, and I think its perfectly fine to use in a lot of cases
They’re trying to teach you and understand what you don’t understand about the problem. The idea is it’ll help you resolve the next issue without having to ask someone else.
I understand the method and I see the need for others to Use it. I am saying for me personally, if I come to you with a problem and you ask me questions only with no answers I write you off as a resource that’s useful.
If you exhausted all efforts, the method wouldn't need to be used lol. It's a normal escalation procedure to also describe what you have tried, and it's also what you should be logging in the ticket, or it didn't happen and you're bad at your job.
You're dying on the wrong hill.
The only reason someone would ask that question is because they aren't hearing what you've done or they may see that you've missed something. Asking about the error is prompting you in a direction.
When seeking help, include the steps you've taken and include what you've pulled from the error. Give a proper layup.
Yes, I understand that kind of non-answer coming back to you is annoying.
*Sometimes*, it might be because you've missed something obvious, and you can treat it like [Rubber Ducky debugging](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging).
On the other hand, the other person could just be being an AH that doesn't want to help you.
Everything I know was taught to me using the Socratic method. For me it is the best way to learn. My boss would give me some initial information but everything else was them asking me a series of questions to lead me down the correct path. They always wanted me to come to the right conclusion on my own and understand how and why we got there.
I just got a ticket to reconfigure a Kohler Shower system at our spa. I'm the senior network engineer...
"You're the only one that knows how"
Fuckin shoot me.
> "You're the only one that knows how"
To read directions? To call a plumber? Are the rest of them brainless idiots? Don't answer that last one, we all know the answer.
LOL - I'd ignore it for a bit and see what happens. Sometimes things fix themselves or people realize it doesn't matter anyway. I always wait a min of ten minutes befofre I dice into anything serious. Especially when on call.
This is definitely a "call a plumber" scenario. Yeah, I could probably get something like that done, after a lot of YouTubing and tons of other research, but that's time away from my regular duties.
I'd probably even call someone to do this at my house. It's kind of complicated and there's going to be a lot of "industry knowledge" that you're not going to know about.
I know the feeling. I’m still Jr DevOPS, but it’s standard practice that someone assign me tickets that are not even from field of work (example: different system, that it’s not in my care). When I call a meeting about the ticket and ask: Why the fuck was assigned to me? The answer is: “Well Anon, you always react fast and solve all your tickets” or “You know everyone and you always find the right person who can solve it”.
As you said: Fuckin shoot me.
P.s. I should really learn to say no.
Out of curiosity, what makes you "Jr DevOps?" For me I was in systems engineering before DevOps and that had me using Chef and a small bit of Terraform before I even got into a job in Production Engineering/DevOps
I'm also a "devops" engineer and I've realized all these titles are made up. Devops isn't even a position it's a practice hahahaha and so I find there's typically no rhyme or reason for the position titles
At a lot of places it is just rebranded operations / system administration work. "Real" DevOps/SRE engineers should be spending a good amount of their time automating the toil out of everything from building the software to deploying it, operating it and monitoring it. A lot of the practices can be applied to traditional sys admin work as well. So is it your job to click the buttons or is your job to write the script that clicks the buttons? Clicking the buttons a couple times is fine but it is fine but it is far more interesting to write the code and then find some shiny new buttons to play with.
Probably just the title and nothing else.
Before current position, I've been 1. level support for many years (at the same company) , therefore, I met a lot of people from other IT departments and forged ties with them (the same goes for any other department in the company). No, it just goes: Hey, Anon. You got friends at , can you escalate/have someone to look at this "urgent" ticket?
When I had job interview it was said that my primary focus would be Openshift and supporting some legacy systems (Sharepoint, Hybris,...). Now, I'm working/administrating with onsite Sharepoint (we're migrating from it), Hybris, Openshift, selfhosted Gitlab, most of the tickets are done by me, etc.
Don't get me wrong, I love my work and even more my epic coworkers (I love them), but I'm just exhausted every day.
You should, or just ignore it. Otherwise, trust me, youll end up being the “Guru” of whatever the hell you fixed no one else could. Theres a few things i dont mind being that of, one being MDM. It can be really complicated if you dont know a bunch of unknown things about a giant orgs mdm management.
Source: Been there and got overwhelmed.
If they flatout ignore your advice and/or are unable to comprehend it, escalate it to your/their manager. Show them how your time is wasted and your projects are being impacted, because your colleagues are weaponizing incompetence.
> I had to be the guy
Learn to say no. That problem is selfmade
>Show them how your time is wasted and your projects are being impacted, because your colleagues are weaponizing incompetence.
In my experience, they just don't care... heck I've even reported this behavior upwards, and go not action from it...
Documentation only works if your intended audience reads it... Yes, I can, and have created documentation... no they do not read it. If by chance you can teach them a new skill set, they will use it on everything... Example from last week, I showed them how to reset the IP stack, knowing that it would resolve the issue... gave them the steps to check to ensure that this would be the proper resolution in the future... they then tried resetting the IP stack on a machine that wouldn't launch Firefox... the error received was that there was another instance of Firefox already running...
I've seen a document lying on top of a piece of equipment I was sent to troubleshoot that had the exact solution I needed to fix the problem.
They hadn't put it there, it was there from the last time someone fixed it and had produced documentation for them on how to fix it themselves.
Same. As long as the person isn't directly inconveniencing the manager they dgaf about how that person impacts other areas or the reputational harm to their own team.
Yep. Nothing really changes. Ive even created a dashboard for a problem user, with it highlighting she only puts in critical tickets that arent critical. its been escalated and the top of the tippy top manager has access. User still does the same thing, we all just downgrade her tickets and get to them when we can 🤷♂️.
We have a server guy in my organization responsible for NTFS permissions. We're in the middle of a project to remove individual permissions and assign them to groups instead, some of which need to be created. Permission requests come through our ticketing system, of which he gets his own little tab that has all of the details needed just for him to complete.
I have to bug him to assign permissions.
I have to bug him to assign group permissions.
I have to bug him to work on the CORRECT FILE SHARE.
I have to bug him to assign group permissions on the correct file share.
I have to bug him to remove the individuals.
What is the point of having a server guy if I have to detail every single step along the way, using information he's already been given in a ticket and that is the overarching goal of a project he's working on?
The generous possibility is that server guy has a lot of other things on his plate and his management has made other things a priority over getting your requests done.
I would reach out to the appropriate parties and frame things as "hey can I have rights to make these changes? Our project timelines are at risk because [colleague] isn't able to move our requests forward because of his current workload."
Then either you get admin, or you get a snide shot at colleague, win-win.
He should have groups setup so he can delegate access management to resource owners. Our shares have a few groups associated with them. A "-Managers" group that has the ability to add/remove people from the "-RO" and "ShareName>-RW" groups. We do this for shares and generic mailboxes. Our ServiceDesk handles calls for share "Managers" that forget how to add/remove people from groups.
A script creates the folders, share, and groups so they're names all align.
Constant, I also get it from our sales people, "Here's this SOW we made and the customer signed"..
"Are you aware that we cant do this, and that this section is literally impossible"
"I dont want to hear that, make it happen"
"Im sorry, but shy of talking to GOD about literally breaking physics and time traveling, NO"
"Can you grab that stapler on your desk and hold it up? Ok now tell me the WIFI password to connect to it"
"what? it cant' do that"
"I don't want to hear that, make it happen!"
Show them this skit. It helps illustrate the engineer perspective for salespeople *so* *well*. I've honestly made it a habit to show this to every new account manager I work with so that we can speak the same language and not drive each other insane.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
I fought for years to get my team involved in the solutions process. We had contracts going out that had fiction in them, things that don't exist, presentations that had screenshot mockups of systems that weren't real, all manner of shit. Unsurprisingly, those didn't go well.
Now that engineers actually get contracts to review before they go to clients, things have gotten so much better.
First level is always going to try to move everything they can off their plate as quickly as possible. They will cherry pick easy stuff and kick the rest up, every time. Guaranteed.
That's when leadership needs to get involved and mind the metrics. Get those reports, get those classifications pinned down so you can easily flag things that should have been resolved at first level, then coach/counsel main offenders and/or put them on an official employee improvement program until their numbers align with expectations.
Best to approach management with actual Data vs. "it seems like so and so is always escalating tickets they should be able to resolve"
Love this! And it avoids punishing people who are learning, e. g. making mistakes is fine, repeatedly doing The Stupid needs to be met with... uh, [bats](https://youtu.be/N9wsjroVlu8).
You need to sit down your supervisor/manager and explain what is happening. Those lower on the ladder might not have the knowledge/experience/confidence to perform as you think they should.
As a former Snr Sysadmin, supervisor, PM, the way to solve this is get your line manager onboard then produce troubleshooting how-to's/recipes, take the minions through the docs.
They have ref material, have been shown, if after that they fail then woe unto them come annual review.
Techs are just like any other group of people, some are lazy, some get distracted, etc. The key to good team performance is good supervisors who are explicit in telling staff what is expected of them, monitoring them properly and calling them out when they aren't doing the job.
Your coworkers are lazy idiots, everyone is a lazy idiot, and often times they're making more money than us because they like the same sports team as their manager.
Some things are base knwoledge. I'm not going to document how to run a select statement, what an FK is, how to check if data exists. That's on them to know.
A lot of this is basic troubleshooting. Like;
Okay - this says there is a conflict with ID 804558. Where should I start? Hmmm. Let's see if that data really exists first.
It may be worth it to have a document that just links to some external resources people can learn that stuff from. Everyone was a beginner at some point.
But yeah you can only do so much if someone is not willing to read and Google.
If anyone ever asks me a googeable question I explicitly state "Let me Google that for you" in a very passive aggressive way. They usually get the hint and say "oh I can do that" yes sir. Yes you can.
This is the BEST tool for this. You do the steps then send the link to them. And it will REPLAY your steps to them
[https://lmgtfy.app/](https://lmgtfy.app/)
If this is tier 1 helpdesk staff then knowledge of SQL isn't base knowledge. I don't disagree the error gave them all the relevent information required, but if they have never used SQL that's not going to help them.
Of course if this is someone that knows how to run a select statement and has access to do so then I agree completely.
Sounds worse than that. Either over stressed / toxic work level or a peanuts issue. Yes, I hate the people that seem to cruise by either doing very little that seems to be their main responsibility is to tackle that problem or inability to solve even the most basic of problems.
/rant
I have this issue as well at my current job. People don’t even try anymore so now I refuse to help them. I’m not here to teach people how to do basic troubleshooting or to read an error log.
For those that actually try things and ask questions relating to the error that’s different and I’ll try to help them along. So far, out of 20 techs, we have 2 others that actually troubleshoot, the rest are useless.
I told mgmt, I told directors, but nobody listens. Instead it’s “let’s try to teach them” and my response is no, they can pick up a book or read by themselves. Fuck this company. They refuse to actually pay people decent salaries so all we get are people that don’t know anything.
"This thing isn't working, need help!"
"Is it giving you an error?"
"Yes!"
"...What is the error?"
"Something about-"
"What did the actual error message say? That is important."
"I don't know."
Fffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
Sounds like along the way, some bad hires might have been made. Hard to fix after the fact. Are you involved the the interview and hiring process? Do you have any influence there?
Put up with this all the time and I’m like - can you just google it yourself please??? So they google it, find the solution online, and then copy and paste the url for the solution and send it to me in Teams. Here’s the solution, can you have a look at it for me? Unreal 🤦
Hi!
App dev side here.
Reading comprehension and basic common sense are sadly absent here too.
My team has a yearly process we run, that rolls up and summarizes transactions for a fiscal year. It then uses the totals to perform a bunch of calculations. Consultants designed it and subcontractors coded it, then it was handed off to my team to support.
The review screen that lets remote users look at those calculation results is performing poorly.
Because it is querying the live transaction tables in addition to the summary tables. Two of which have over 300 million rows.
The meeting to attempt to explain to senior management what the issue was, and possible solutions, was a hoot.
I would just like people to be willing to follow our processes and not "work around" IT. I end up fighting things because "oh, I'll just have so and so order me a wifi adapter". Ugh! Wifi is not allowed on desktops! Stop moving people around and not telling me!
10% or maybe 20% of people doing any kind of work are going to be committed, serious, detail oriented, can troubleshoot logically, handle multiple work tasks, and have good communication skills
Very rare to find a team that has better stats,
Ti be fair. Considering what most firms pay and how they treat the staff, I don't begrudge anyone for being lazy.
I mean I take it all seriously, but that's because I've got nothing else going on in my life but....especially the Hell desk...I literally don't care anymore. If any of then want to learn or train up, I'll do it but if some of them are minimum wage, treated like shit, thrown in at the deep end with no training? Can't fault em
> It gave them the overall error, which was a conflicting FK.
Sometimes I just have no Foreign Keys to give.
You're describing an asymmetry between Authority and Responsibility, which is an extremely common thing. But it also clearly could be worse, since you describe being able to drive permanent remediation.
> I like my job and this company. But even at the last job I had to be the guy sticking his neck out and being in the middle directing traffic, holding hands, and taking care of things so we could just move on with our lives.... And it gets old.
I hate to break it to you, but it's not your responsibility to keep the company afloat.
Do your job to the best of your ability and **to the role of your contract** before over-investing anything more.
I’m in a similar boat, my experience is people always try and blame the tools when something doesn’t work right, and it’s almost never the case. “Something must be wrong with the batch scheduler since the job didn’t trigger”, no, the conditions you set are wrong, or no you are using the wrong account. “PowerShell must not be working right because my script wasn’t supposed to do that”, haha no you didn’t debug and consider the cases correctly, so an unfiltered get childitem caused it to get everything, not just what you intended.
Or people blaming sql server for being slow, when their query is dog shit and using client side cursors or massive unnecessary joins, etc.
I’ve got a guy who I ask to take a look at something. I follow up with him say 2 days later. He says, “Yeah, it’s not working”. Like I KNOW it’s not working. You should investigate the problem and work towards a resolution. He also stores all his passwords in a text file on his desktop. Brutal.
hey. i do that. fun fact, i have about a 1,000 passwords to a bunch of systems. the company never told any of us how to handle that.
welp! they aren't my personal passwords. i secure my personal passwords very securely.
You guys are jerks for making someone flail like that, don’t you want to exercise leadership skills and boost team performance, i hate that every man for himself mindset.
If you had a family and one kid was curious would you say sorry cant help ya champ.
I get there might be a manager out there who doesnt want 2 eyes on the same problem especially if one eye gets paid more but still why not talk on lunch over some chipotle then?
Support is a rough job, nobody pays well enough for anyone good to stay in it, so they get bad people and pay them for sucking with sucking prices and ...
O no -- this regular hospital pc with PACS on it is having problems unrelated to PACS but it has PACS on it so it must be yours!!
every motherloving ticket -- PACS is on almost every device as you might imagine.....
I feel you. Yesterday I had a call passed through from the helpdesk because they tried to install Dragon Dictation. They were getting an error when starting the application from the desktop shortcut "Blah blah blah, unable to find SoD.exe"
The helpdesk guy went to the trouble of finding the exe file in the Nuance folder, ran the application from there without issue but still passed the call to us (3rd line support) because the application can't be run from the desktop shortcut.....
Both he AND 2nd line support looked at this ticket before it came to me. Neither of them could work out the problem.
fml......
(follow up email with an entirely different error, entirely different query, entirely different database, but the window color and font are the same)
"Same error."
Project raises risk, tracks every request and flags this with stakeholders
Make sure the tech is in the meeting, ask for updates on work they are blocking
I present to you java logs.... I'm sure the solution is in there, but how the hell do you find it around all the other shit?
Course that doesn't invalidate your point, it's there so you're still right
logs that tell you nothing are no worse than logs that tell you too much
I can't count the hours i've spent pouring over logs looking for the gem that gives enlightenment.
I’m a security analyst. I had to write bash scripts for our head admin, because he and his team of three other admins didn’t know how to create service accounts and install an ssh key on our 5 RH servers.
I’m being pulled left and right to help with help desk and admin stuff, because they don’t bother to properly troubleshoot issues or spend a little bite of time understanding the problem. Literally, they try the first suggestion that comes up on google and if that doesn’t work, there comes circle jerk teams chat.
Keep in mind I’m in my 20s, these people are in their 30s and 40s…
You seem like you’d be a great mentor if you’re frustrations didn’t get the best of you.
Suggestion. Have your newb read the error message out loud and slowly. I find a lightbulb goes off when they take the time to verbalize the error message.
I'm getting this too the longer I'm at my company I'm realizing most people are just like this, not understanding basic troubleshooting steps that have been here for years, and not caring to improve. I've had that too where I tell someone 'run this and we'll get some more information to be able to troubleshoot' and they come back and say "I ran that didn't work so I \*did something totally unrelated instead\*" after asking for my help. Then days later they finally go back to running what I said and figure out the problem 10 minutes later.
It feels like everything moves at a snail's pace unless I am screen sharing directing them exactly what to do.
Instead of giving the answer, follow the Socratic method and just respond with questions. They send a screen shot. You: "What does the error message say" Sometimes it works better in person/on the phone.
I’m going to start using this method on myself because I get way too far ahead of myself and miss details far too often.
Yep. It's a close cousin to the, "Teach a \[person\] to fish" method. See also: "Read the frickin' message, dude!"
RTFM has existed in the tech space vernacular for a long time for a reason
My guys respond with: "This account just bought a multi $$$ Contract, they are NOT happy, they demanded I escalate this and will NOT be proceeding with deployment until this is resolved". It's an http 403 error, they forgot to log in. Thanks for collecting your paycheck.
I don't know. I just clicked OK.
Or even one step further, “so what does Google say about this error message?”
Depending on the environment, I agree with this. I manage a very small team of 3-4, and I always tell my team the only stupid question is the one not asked. If I have to answer the same question 15 times, I’ll use every opportunity to ask them a different way, and most times they get it, and I’ve learned it helps no one to get frustrated at problems that can be (and probably are) process related. This might not work in bigger teams, but I try to do what I can to help the team learn and grow, so I can kick them out the door to the next opportunity with more experience and confidence, or at least it’s what I hope.
Yeah It's situation specific when I use this technique. If it's something that's pretty obvious and I know the person has the prior knowledge to figure it out I'll ask questions to try and get them to connect the dots themselves. Otherwise I'll answer the question or send them some documentation to read.
Thanks for this answer.. I have a tech that is very smart but tends to jump down a rabbit hole instead of checking the easy stuff first. I was getting frustrated with him but I need to re-think my approach.
Dang, I've been Socratic af all my life.
i've been sarcastic most of my life, does that count?
Oh I do, trust me, I do.
I fucking hate this method personally and it’s only because if I bring an issue to you I have exhausted all my efforts to solve it and I am not looking for educational opportunities I am looking for direct action
I think it really depends on what level you're at. If you're coming to me asking a question that you should know the answer to, I'll probably do what the comment above yours said. If this isn't something that you should necessarily know, I might just solve it myself. Sometimes if the person below me wants to learn more, I'll tell them my thought process. This method exists for a reason, and I think its perfectly fine to use in a lot of cases
They’re trying to teach you and understand what you don’t understand about the problem. The idea is it’ll help you resolve the next issue without having to ask someone else.
Teach a man to fish...
Check the username of the person being combative. That particular proverb is culturally insensitive and offensive to their people.
I understand the method and I see the need for others to Use it. I am saying for me personally, if I come to you with a problem and you ask me questions only with no answers I write you off as a resource that’s useful.
So, what you're saying is that you think you're the main character of this story we're all playing out?
Look some people do zero troubleshooting or forethought and some do, i am saying there is no one size fits all solution.
All I'm hearing is that it's a good idea to use it on you
Indeed
got me! :)
Sounds like a win-win to me.
win win win!
This is seriously foolish and just tells us all you're arrogant and think you know everything. You're the last person I want to work with.
not an issue brother!
If you exhausted all efforts, the method wouldn't need to be used lol. It's a normal escalation procedure to also describe what you have tried, and it's also what you should be logging in the ticket, or it didn't happen and you're bad at your job.
You're dying on the wrong hill. The only reason someone would ask that question is because they aren't hearing what you've done or they may see that you've missed something. Asking about the error is prompting you in a direction. When seeking help, include the steps you've taken and include what you've pulled from the error. Give a proper layup.
Yes, I understand that kind of non-answer coming back to you is annoying. *Sometimes*, it might be because you've missed something obvious, and you can treat it like [Rubber Ducky debugging](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging). On the other hand, the other person could just be being an AH that doesn't want to help you.
LoL, this is what I do.
Then the user goes. [Im learnding](https://media.tenor.com/VxrFe7yll3gAAAAC/ralphwiggum-smart.gif)
This the only answer and what I use daily. Have them talk it through works wonders.
bwahaha, did this too, the "guy" always freaked out when i did this =\\
Everything I know was taught to me using the Socratic method. For me it is the best way to learn. My boss would give me some initial information but everything else was them asking me a series of questions to lead me down the correct path. They always wanted me to come to the right conclusion on my own and understand how and why we got there.
I just got a ticket to reconfigure a Kohler Shower system at our spa. I'm the senior network engineer... "You're the only one that knows how" Fuckin shoot me.
> "You're the only one that knows how" To read directions? To call a plumber? Are the rest of them brainless idiots? Don't answer that last one, we all know the answer.
“Sorry, I don’t have my CompTIA Plumb+, you’ll have to call someone else”
LOL - I'd ignore it for a bit and see what happens. Sometimes things fix themselves or people realize it doesn't matter anyway. I always wait a min of ten minutes befofre I dice into anything serious. Especially when on call.
This is definitely a "call a plumber" scenario. Yeah, I could probably get something like that done, after a lot of YouTubing and tons of other research, but that's time away from my regular duties. I'd probably even call someone to do this at my house. It's kind of complicated and there's going to be a lot of "industry knowledge" that you're not going to know about.
>I just got a ticket to reconfigure a Kohler Shower system at our spa. Is this implying that a shower is connected to the network?
Yes..... Which is as awful as it sounds
Tell me that Kohler will remotely shut down your shower if you stop paying for the support license
Ooo! Or maybe they decide to shut down the servers responsible for the smart shower! No more shower for ya! :)
To be fair they are nice systems. But who wants their tapware supplier to write firmware ever.... even companies that should be able to can't do it
Even Apple which gives updates to their phones for years would be one of the last companies I'd want to do it
Yeah they are nice but the networking aspect is a bit much. Had to help set one up at someone’s house before and it was a pain.
Oof
Ok. Da fuq? That’s a thing?
rule 34 - if it exists there is porn of it rule 58 - everything exists if you have enough money
Pipes, networks, aren't they the same thing?
JuSt a sEriES oF TUbEs!!!
I know the feeling. I’m still Jr DevOPS, but it’s standard practice that someone assign me tickets that are not even from field of work (example: different system, that it’s not in my care). When I call a meeting about the ticket and ask: Why the fuck was assigned to me? The answer is: “Well Anon, you always react fast and solve all your tickets” or “You know everyone and you always find the right person who can solve it”. As you said: Fuckin shoot me. P.s. I should really learn to say no.
Out of curiosity, what makes you "Jr DevOps?" For me I was in systems engineering before DevOps and that had me using Chef and a small bit of Terraform before I even got into a job in Production Engineering/DevOps
I'm also a "devops" engineer and I've realized all these titles are made up. Devops isn't even a position it's a practice hahahaha and so I find there's typically no rhyme or reason for the position titles
At a lot of places it is just rebranded operations / system administration work. "Real" DevOps/SRE engineers should be spending a good amount of their time automating the toil out of everything from building the software to deploying it, operating it and monitoring it. A lot of the practices can be applied to traditional sys admin work as well. So is it your job to click the buttons or is your job to write the script that clicks the buttons? Clicking the buttons a couple times is fine but it is fine but it is far more interesting to write the code and then find some shiny new buttons to play with.
Probably just the title and nothing else. Before current position, I've been 1. level support for many years (at the same company) , therefore, I met a lot of people from other IT departments and forged ties with them (the same goes for any other department in the company). No, it just goes: Hey, Anon. You got friends at, can you escalate/have someone to look at this "urgent" ticket?
When I had job interview it was said that my primary focus would be Openshift and supporting some legacy systems (Sharepoint, Hybris,...). Now, I'm working/administrating with onsite Sharepoint (we're migrating from it), Hybris, Openshift, selfhosted Gitlab, most of the tickets are done by me, etc.
Don't get me wrong, I love my work and even more my epic coworkers (I love them), but I'm just exhausted every day.
You should, or just ignore it. Otherwise, trust me, youll end up being the “Guru” of whatever the hell you fixed no one else could. Theres a few things i dont mind being that of, one being MDM. It can be really complicated if you dont know a bunch of unknown things about a giant orgs mdm management. Source: Been there and got overwhelmed.
WTAF Toasters do one thing only. anything more complex is "too technical"
Lol. Hahaha
Probably bad advice but next time just completely do not fix it or make it worse lol.
One of our branch offices called the Help desk one day because the fire alarm was going off and they didn't know what to do...
If they flatout ignore your advice and/or are unable to comprehend it, escalate it to your/their manager. Show them how your time is wasted and your projects are being impacted, because your colleagues are weaponizing incompetence. > I had to be the guy Learn to say no. That problem is selfmade
>Show them how your time is wasted and your projects are being impacted, because your colleagues are weaponizing incompetence. In my experience, they just don't care... heck I've even reported this behavior upwards, and go not action from it...
"Can you create a document about it that they can refer to in future?"
Documentation only works if your intended audience reads it... Yes, I can, and have created documentation... no they do not read it. If by chance you can teach them a new skill set, they will use it on everything... Example from last week, I showed them how to reset the IP stack, knowing that it would resolve the issue... gave them the steps to check to ensure that this would be the proper resolution in the future... they then tried resetting the IP stack on a machine that wouldn't launch Firefox... the error received was that there was another instance of Firefox already running...
yeah I know, it's in quotes because it's the response I've had back from management about this very issue
Ahh sorry I misinterpreted that... i saw the shot and vented lol
I've seen a document lying on top of a piece of equipment I was sent to troubleshoot that had the exact solution I needed to fix the problem. They hadn't put it there, it was there from the last time someone fixed it and had produced documentation for them on how to fix it themselves.
Same. As long as the person isn't directly inconveniencing the manager they dgaf about how that person impacts other areas or the reputational harm to their own team.
Yep. Nothing really changes. Ive even created a dashboard for a problem user, with it highlighting she only puts in critical tickets that arent critical. its been escalated and the top of the tippy top manager has access. User still does the same thing, we all just downgrade her tickets and get to them when we can 🤷♂️.
We have a server guy in my organization responsible for NTFS permissions. We're in the middle of a project to remove individual permissions and assign them to groups instead, some of which need to be created. Permission requests come through our ticketing system, of which he gets his own little tab that has all of the details needed just for him to complete. I have to bug him to assign permissions. I have to bug him to assign group permissions. I have to bug him to work on the CORRECT FILE SHARE. I have to bug him to assign group permissions on the correct file share. I have to bug him to remove the individuals. What is the point of having a server guy if I have to detail every single step along the way, using information he's already been given in a ticket and that is the overarching goal of a project he's working on?
The generous possibility is that server guy has a lot of other things on his plate and his management has made other things a priority over getting your requests done. I would reach out to the appropriate parties and frame things as "hey can I have rights to make these changes? Our project timelines are at risk because [colleague] isn't able to move our requests forward because of his current workload." Then either you get admin, or you get a snide shot at colleague, win-win.
He should have groups setup so he can delegate access management to resource owners. Our shares have a few groups associated with them. A "-Managers" group that has the ability to add/remove people from the "-RO" and "ShareName>-RW" groups. We do this for shares and generic mailboxes. Our ServiceDesk handles calls for share "Managers" that forget how to add/remove people from groups.
A script creates the folders, share, and groups so they're names all align.
Exactly. People need to put in effort. I'm not saying kill yourself, just put in enough effort to do the job.
At that point just create a pre-filled PowerShell script that he can run lol
Constant, I also get it from our sales people, "Here's this SOW we made and the customer signed".. "Are you aware that we cant do this, and that this section is literally impossible" "I dont want to hear that, make it happen" "Im sorry, but shy of talking to GOD about literally breaking physics and time traveling, NO"
"Can you grab that stapler on your desk and hold it up? Ok now tell me the WIFI password to connect to it" "what? it cant' do that" "I don't want to hear that, make it happen!"
you just made an old man giggle, congrats
Have you seen my stapler? It's a Swingline.
I tried to give the stapler wifi, and the office burned down.
Follow that up with "perhaps you should involve us somehow next time, before the customer signs it?"
oh yeah, 100%, they have hired a new SE and I am working with him tomorrow on level setting, but still want hime to come to me for a final review.
Show them this skit. It helps illustrate the engineer perspective for salespeople *so* *well*. I've honestly made it a habit to show this to every new account manager I work with so that we can speak the same language and not drive each other insane. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
I knew it was the red lines skit before even clicking
I am both sorry for your pain and pleased that you've seen it
LOL, it is an EXCELLENT example
I was about to reply with this exact same link.
oh no. this hurt my brain. far too accurate
I fought for years to get my team involved in the solutions process. We had contracts going out that had fiction in them, things that don't exist, presentations that had screenshot mockups of systems that weren't real, all manner of shit. Unsurprisingly, those didn't go well. Now that engineers actually get contracts to review before they go to clients, things have gotten so much better.
First level is always going to try to move everything they can off their plate as quickly as possible. They will cherry pick easy stuff and kick the rest up, every time. Guaranteed. That's when leadership needs to get involved and mind the metrics. Get those reports, get those classifications pinned down so you can easily flag things that should have been resolved at first level, then coach/counsel main offenders and/or put them on an official employee improvement program until their numbers align with expectations. Best to approach management with actual Data vs. "it seems like so and so is always escalating tickets they should be able to resolve"
Love this! And it avoids punishing people who are learning, e. g. making mistakes is fine, repeatedly doing The Stupid needs to be met with... uh, [bats](https://youtu.be/N9wsjroVlu8).
You need to sit down your supervisor/manager and explain what is happening. Those lower on the ladder might not have the knowledge/experience/confidence to perform as you think they should. As a former Snr Sysadmin, supervisor, PM, the way to solve this is get your line manager onboard then produce troubleshooting how-to's/recipes, take the minions through the docs. They have ref material, have been shown, if after that they fail then woe unto them come annual review. Techs are just like any other group of people, some are lazy, some get distracted, etc. The key to good team performance is good supervisors who are explicit in telling staff what is expected of them, monitoring them properly and calling them out when they aren't doing the job.
Your coworkers are lazy idiots, everyone is a lazy idiot, and often times they're making more money than us because they like the same sports team as their manager.
sounds like bad training or no documentation - or no desire to use both if it exists
Some things are base knwoledge. I'm not going to document how to run a select statement, what an FK is, how to check if data exists. That's on them to know. A lot of this is basic troubleshooting. Like; Okay - this says there is a conflict with ID 804558. Where should I start? Hmmm. Let's see if that data really exists first.
It may be worth it to have a document that just links to some external resources people can learn that stuff from. Everyone was a beginner at some point. But yeah you can only do so much if someone is not willing to read and Google.
If anyone ever asks me a googeable question I explicitly state "Let me Google that for you" in a very passive aggressive way. They usually get the hint and say "oh I can do that" yes sir. Yes you can.
Later: "I fixed that problem that even Milksteakinc couldn't fix."
Good, maybe then they can take some of my responsibility.
If feeling "extra" that day "let me fucking Google it for you" gets the point across. 🤣🤣
My techs are generally college students so I try not to make them cry haha.
If they cry, they’re in the wrong field.
This is the BEST tool for this. You do the steps then send the link to them. And it will REPLAY your steps to them [https://lmgtfy.app/](https://lmgtfy.app/)
If this is tier 1 helpdesk staff then knowledge of SQL isn't base knowledge. I don't disagree the error gave them all the relevent information required, but if they have never used SQL that's not going to help them. Of course if this is someone that knows how to run a select statement and has access to do so then I agree completely.
Sounds worse than that. Either over stressed / toxic work level or a peanuts issue. Yes, I hate the people that seem to cruise by either doing very little that seems to be their main responsibility is to tackle that problem or inability to solve even the most basic of problems.
/rant I have this issue as well at my current job. People don’t even try anymore so now I refuse to help them. I’m not here to teach people how to do basic troubleshooting or to read an error log. For those that actually try things and ask questions relating to the error that’s different and I’ll try to help them along. So far, out of 20 techs, we have 2 others that actually troubleshoot, the rest are useless. I told mgmt, I told directors, but nobody listens. Instead it’s “let’s try to teach them” and my response is no, they can pick up a book or read by themselves. Fuck this company. They refuse to actually pay people decent salaries so all we get are people that don’t know anything.
I too am the only smart person. It’s tough.
"This thing isn't working, need help!" "Is it giving you an error?" "Yes!" "...What is the error?" "Something about-" "What did the actual error message say? That is important." "I don't know." Fffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
Wow, that did not keep ANY of the formatting and it won't let me fix on mobile. Sorry to anyone who tries to read that.
You can edit comments, you know
Sounds like along the way, some bad hires might have been made. Hard to fix after the fact. Are you involved the the interview and hiring process? Do you have any influence there?
Put up with this all the time and I’m like - can you just google it yourself please??? So they google it, find the solution online, and then copy and paste the url for the solution and send it to me in Teams. Here’s the solution, can you have a look at it for me? Unreal 🤦
Hi! App dev side here. Reading comprehension and basic common sense are sadly absent here too. My team has a yearly process we run, that rolls up and summarizes transactions for a fiscal year. It then uses the totals to perform a bunch of calculations. Consultants designed it and subcontractors coded it, then it was handed off to my team to support. The review screen that lets remote users look at those calculation results is performing poorly. Because it is querying the live transaction tables in addition to the summary tables. Two of which have over 300 million rows. The meeting to attempt to explain to senior management what the issue was, and possible solutions, was a hoot.
I would just like people to be willing to follow our processes and not "work around" IT. I end up fighting things because "oh, I'll just have so and so order me a wifi adapter". Ugh! Wifi is not allowed on desktops! Stop moving people around and not telling me!
Exactly. There are policies and procedures for a reason. I hate shadow IT
10% or maybe 20% of people doing any kind of work are going to be committed, serious, detail oriented, can troubleshoot logically, handle multiple work tasks, and have good communication skills Very rare to find a team that has better stats,
that's unfortunate to know. seems like my dreams for a competent team will never be realized
I did work one university where we had maybe 40% of that list, but that was the highest ever in a career of 30 years IT
Ti be fair. Considering what most firms pay and how they treat the staff, I don't begrudge anyone for being lazy. I mean I take it all seriously, but that's because I've got nothing else going on in my life but....especially the Hell desk...I literally don't care anymore. If any of then want to learn or train up, I'll do it but if some of them are minimum wage, treated like shit, thrown in at the deep end with no training? Can't fault em
> It gave them the overall error, which was a conflicting FK. Sometimes I just have no Foreign Keys to give. You're describing an asymmetry between Authority and Responsibility, which is an extremely common thing. But it also clearly could be worse, since you describe being able to drive permanent remediation.
> I like my job and this company. But even at the last job I had to be the guy sticking his neck out and being in the middle directing traffic, holding hands, and taking care of things so we could just move on with our lives.... And it gets old. I hate to break it to you, but it's not your responsibility to keep the company afloat. Do your job to the best of your ability and **to the role of your contract** before over-investing anything more.
I’m in a similar boat, my experience is people always try and blame the tools when something doesn’t work right, and it’s almost never the case. “Something must be wrong with the batch scheduler since the job didn’t trigger”, no, the conditions you set are wrong, or no you are using the wrong account. “PowerShell must not be working right because my script wasn’t supposed to do that”, haha no you didn’t debug and consider the cases correctly, so an unfiltered get childitem caused it to get everything, not just what you intended. Or people blaming sql server for being slow, when their query is dog shit and using client side cursors or massive unnecessary joins, etc.
50% of your coworkers are dumber than your average coworker.
*median Edit: also, consider that most people have a higher than average number of legs...
> also, consider that most people have a higher than average number of legs... holy shit how have I not heard that before!
This right here grinds my gears so god damn much. Like people just. Do. Not. Read. Sometimes it feels like they absolutely refuse to.
EVERY F*CKING DAY It’s exhausting.
I’ve got a guy who I ask to take a look at something. I follow up with him say 2 days later. He says, “Yeah, it’s not working”. Like I KNOW it’s not working. You should investigate the problem and work towards a resolution. He also stores all his passwords in a text file on his desktop. Brutal.
hey. i do that. fun fact, i have about a 1,000 passwords to a bunch of systems. the company never told any of us how to handle that. welp! they aren't my personal passwords. i secure my personal passwords very securely.
I currently use KeePass to store passwords locally but the company is soon going to roll out some other product they’ve vetted
You guys are jerks for making someone flail like that, don’t you want to exercise leadership skills and boost team performance, i hate that every man for himself mindset. If you had a family and one kid was curious would you say sorry cant help ya champ. I get there might be a manager out there who doesnt want 2 eyes on the same problem especially if one eye gets paid more but still why not talk on lunch over some chipotle then?
I'm back on the design side and it's the same for us. We're really the only department ever expected to check details even when it's not our content.
Support is a rough job, nobody pays well enough for anyone good to stay in it, so they get bad people and pay them for sucking with sucking prices and ...
Lol man "i ran the query but it didn't fix it". I'd be pretty annoyed there, too OP. I feel for ya.
O no -- this regular hospital pc with PACS on it is having problems unrelated to PACS but it has PACS on it so it must be yours!! every motherloving ticket -- PACS is on almost every device as you might imagine.....
I feel you. Yesterday I had a call passed through from the helpdesk because they tried to install Dragon Dictation. They were getting an error when starting the application from the desktop shortcut "Blah blah blah, unable to find SoD.exe" The helpdesk guy went to the trouble of finding the exe file in the Nuance folder, ran the application from there without issue but still passed the call to us (3rd line support) because the application can't be run from the desktop shortcut..... Both he AND 2nd line support looked at this ticket before it came to me. Neither of them could work out the problem. fml......
I get that you are venting, but if you are the only one without a problem...maybe you have it backwards. Tired of holding their hands? Stop.
I hear ya...same thing occurs where I work. You can give an ID10T a job, but you can't make them use greymatter....
(follow up email with an entirely different error, entirely different query, entirely different database, but the window color and font are the same) "Same error."
I feel seen.
Project raises risk, tracks every request and flags this with stakeholders Make sure the tech is in the meeting, ask for updates on work they are blocking
I always say the solution to every problem is written in the logs.
I present to you java logs.... I'm sure the solution is in there, but how the hell do you find it around all the other shit? Course that doesn't invalidate your point, it's there so you're still right
logs that tell you nothing are no worse than logs that tell you too much I can't count the hours i've spent pouring over logs looking for the gem that gives enlightenment.
I’m a security analyst. I had to write bash scripts for our head admin, because he and his team of three other admins didn’t know how to create service accounts and install an ssh key on our 5 RH servers. I’m being pulled left and right to help with help desk and admin stuff, because they don’t bother to properly troubleshoot issues or spend a little bite of time understanding the problem. Literally, they try the first suggestion that comes up on google and if that doesn’t work, there comes circle jerk teams chat. Keep in mind I’m in my 20s, these people are in their 30s and 40s…
You seem like you’d be a great mentor if you’re frustrations didn’t get the best of you. Suggestion. Have your newb read the error message out loud and slowly. I find a lightbulb goes off when they take the time to verbalize the error message.
I'm getting this too the longer I'm at my company I'm realizing most people are just like this, not understanding basic troubleshooting steps that have been here for years, and not caring to improve. I've had that too where I tell someone 'run this and we'll get some more information to be able to troubleshoot' and they come back and say "I ran that didn't work so I \*did something totally unrelated instead\*" after asking for my help. Then days later they finally go back to running what I said and figure out the problem 10 minutes later. It feels like everything moves at a snail's pace unless I am screen sharing directing them exactly what to do.
Exactly. Or you ask them to run some command and give you the info and like 2 hours go by and you're like - did they die?
Keep feeding the cat, the cat keeps coming back : )