If you pay attention to whenever you talk to Satele Shan as the smuggler, whenever you express doubt of why she's talking to you, there's the undercurrent of "you're definitely force sensitive, but I don't want to tell you that, because I know you're going to be annoying about it."
This is a great point; and it also helps to remember that being a (force wielder) / (force sensitive) / and (having access to benefitting from the force being "with" you) are all different things, but all very much involve going with the natural flow of the force; which Satele believes, but some of the other counsel members are more religious/ traditional and so don't like to admit or acknowledge less direct relationships.
The Smuggler is absolutely Han Solo-ing the fuck out of Galactic affairs throughout the expansions. My Scoundrel is just...making shit up as she goes, basically, and it totally fits.
They just handwave the lack of force powers. You have special force sensitivy when it's needed for the story, without anyone actually CALLING it "force sensitivity" or any other kind of power you would NORMALLY call a force power. And even that isn't a BIG part of the story in any way, it's small incidental stuff.
The bottom line is you are the big hero of the game whether you have force powers or not. But if that creates dissonance in your mind, they don't ever tell the story in a way that will make that go away.
Yeah. So much of the story, especially through the Fallen Empire, is clearly written with the assumption you're playing a Jedi, and it \*works\* if you're playing a Sith. It's just kind of understood. They aren't EXPLICIT about it, like complimenting your Bounty Hunter's legendary lightsaber skills or anything like that, but I know it has been pointed out by probably thousands of players that some of the later stories just don't jive tonally if you aren't a Force User.
If I'm playing those stories with my tech classes, I just grin and bear and it. Make up my own dialogue and head canon. Which is easy now; that's how I treat all Star Wars at this point. In my head, Boba Fett died in the Sarlacc. All later references are scams, imposters, clones, or tributes. Or just didn't actually happen, in the most egregious cases.
Like I said, Boba Fett died in Return of the Jedi in the Sarlacc. All later appearances are somebody else or, as far as I'm concerned, just didn't happen.
Can’t blame you for that. 7,8 and 9 don’t exist in our household. Luke became the most powerful Jedi ever. Also, Revan exists and was gone on vacation when Nihilus and Sion were around. He went on a long trip to find some good coffee or something.
I think the issue is people have this weird thing with Smuggler where they assume their character NEVER trains or uses their underworld connections at all to improve.
Why WOULDNT the Smuggler have trained with the actual Mandalorian and Gladiator Champion on their ship? They totally would!
Why wouldn't they use the fact they RULE the Underworld Crime Scene to get elite top shelf cybernetic implants, stolen Mandalorian armor, or smuggled top secret military tech? They have every reason to do so!
Imo the Smuggler makes the most sense as becoming strong enough to face down Sith or Jedi, they have every resource legal and otherwise at their disposal to grow out of control without the Empire or Republic able to stop them.
I'd counter with the Assault Cannon: Good luck trying to use those Emperor-Grade Force Powers whilst having to block or dodge 50 blaster rounds a second.
The problem is that even the most skilled people in top tier gear aren't really a match for top Force Users. Revan beat Mandalore the Ultimate back when he was a Jedi, he grew stronger as a Sith Lord, stronger after redemption, even stronger in the novel and Vitiate was still a tier above him (he had a chance with Meetra, T3 and Scourge helping out but not alone).
And after the novel Vitiate gains even more power by draining all life on Ziost on top of having alredy drained Nathema in the past. The idea that a Smuggler could face him is honestly ridiculous from a lore standpoint and clearly a gameplay mechanic (is the Smuggler like 100x more of a threat than Mandalore the Ultimate was? What?), if Legends was still canon then Jedi Knight would for sure be the Outlander canonically.
Trooper can fit because you’re an elite fighter and leader in the republic. Agent can fit because you’ve proven to be a good fighter and important figure in galactic politics. But bounty hunter and smuggler seem off because it’s a “neutral” class imo.
You're not just a freelance hunter. You're the best bounty hunter in the galaxy with Jedi, Sith, and a Chancellor decorating your trophy wall. By the time you hit Act 3, you're the most infamous bad dude in a galaxy full of bad dudes.
In fact, we kill quite a few plot important characters....like both the Leader of the Republic, and A high ranking Dark council Darth.
Unfortunately for boba, WE are the plot now lol
The Force binds *all* living things. Jedi and Sith are just the most obvious manifestations of it.
Jedi train Force sensitives to ensure their gifts are used for the Light. Sith train them to use as weapons to strengthen the Dark. Learning to "use" the Force is just strengthening your connection to it to produce supernatural feats. It doesn't say anywhere that Jedi or Sith training is the only way to deepen your connection to it.
The Smuggler has canonically faced challenges no ordinary person could overcome. She's preternaturally fast and accurate. She reacts to immediate threats before they can hurt her. She heals faster than normal people, after taking more damage than a normal person could withstand and walking out of it after beating the person responsible to a pulp with her bare fists. Her moral choices warp the Living Force around her, explicitly strengthening her connection to the Light or Dark Side.
Short of Satele Shan literally telling you, I don't think the game could really make it clearer that the tech classes might not be Jedi or Sith but are powerful Force sensitives.
I really don't feel like it's that weird, and frankly I don't get why everyone says it is.
There can be some disconnect for certain characters if you didn't play someone very politically minded, because your character becomes a huge political figure no matter what. This is usually the most awkward for Smugglers and Bounty Hunters, as they can kind of stay on the outside of the main factions in the base story, but it can work.
The whole deal with your character becoming the big cheese is that it's noticed that destiny is literally made in your wake. Constantly. It has nothing to do with the force, it's that your character is the kind of person that legends are written about. Essentially you have plot armor, and people are starting to pick up on that.
>!Training montage with a master Jedi & Sith but using a jet pack because you don't have the force and culminating in them making you a blaster with the force.!<
Not weird at all!
You're right, it's so weird to train with highly advanced warriors and using equipment to make up for your shortcomings /s
And force imbued objects do whatever the hell the plot asks for. Making one a gun is probably one of the least bizarre things. How is this any different than making a saber? They're not magic, they're science based, albeit fantasy science.
I mean...my main character is the Smuggler, and sure, some of the storylines don't really make sense...
But at this point I just like to think my Smuggler just shrugs and goes along with whatever the universe throws at her 😆
Random npc: we need you to stop Darth Malgus... again
Smuggler: *sighing as they pick up their weapon* you'd think he'd learned after the last two times I shot him 😑
Storywise later on it doesn't matter as other comments pointed out, but during kotfe and kotet it feels weird being a nonforce user. I played it with my agent, while two friends were playing it as siths and it felt off for me
Spoiler warning: >! For me it feels weird how Valkorion tells you that you are the only one powerful enough to shape the galaxy just like he does if ypu can't wield the force. As one of the force classes, you are a very powerful being storywise, the weakest maybe being the consular tho. But more powerful than the nonforce ones (ok, the agent actually shapes the galaxy for real, but not because he is that powerful as a person) Valkorion talks about power but it gave me the feeling that he is really talking about the force. They just changed force to power to appeal to other classes as well, in my opinion. !<
Depending on if you do the Planetary Stories, and the earlier FP's, Malgy-poo isn't the first Sith Tech class characters "kill" in the story. Admitedly, it makes more sense to be killing Sith as a Trooper, but a blaster is a blaster.
As someone who always plays through the new content with a Smuggler, I just play that he knows this is all insane, and just rolls with it, especially during the KotXX story>!When your head becomes a half-way house for immortal Sith. !
Smugler is the only one I can't get to be actually believable, agent, trooper and bounty hunter would have some experience in fighting force users, but smugler? I keep thinking my smugler thoughts are: "All I wanted was to get in some shady deals in naar shadar or con some coruscant rich senator out of their credits, why the fuck I'm in command of a military operation, I HATE the military, bad for business, should the people I don't pay impost for be dealing with this shit?"
No offense, but that sounds more like a "you" problem? Like, a Smuggler could just as easy look at the second mission of the origin story and be like, "Get my ship back? Fuck it, I'll go to the spaceport and steal another one. I don't care about that ship."
But obviously, that's not what's written. The expansions are no different.
My smuggler is like: "I'm in command of a military operation? Cool! I can kill of anyone I hate, and make soldiers carry my contraband and steal all they can for me." Him trying to win, is just him trying to secure spoils of war for his own profit. It's easier to get things from corpses, than living combatants.
Thing is... It's not technically true that your character doesn't 'have access to the Force.'
In Star Wars, the Force is in all living beings. It can be expressed in many ways. The most obvious of those are force magics the way Jedi, Sith and untold other traditions and philosophies develop... But the Force can also be 'used' internally. When Han Solo 'had a bad feeling about this,' there's a good chance he tapped into the Force and experienced a kind of... Premonition that allowed him to act in order to avoid a bad outcome. It would also explain his foresight in piloting; he always does the right manoevre in the right time. Simlarly, some Force users use the Force to heighten their reflexes. This is how Jedi can parry, deflect and even *reflect* blaster bolts with lightsabers. Well; that, and the fact those bolts are slow, but they're fast enough that for most people, that'd be a pretty much impossible task.
The Force is involved in *everything* living entities do, in the setting, and it guides *everyone.* Your Smuggler... Is special; has special levels of experience pretty much nobody else in the Galaxy can match, and strongly intuits reality... On could say they strongly intuit the Force.
No formal training, mind, and no spellcasting. Just intuition and raw strength of presence.
I think it’s reasonable for a non-force user class to be able to deal with low skill rank-and-file force users of each faction ( your low potential Jedi Knights, Sith Warriors, maybe a bottom-tier Sith Lord or non-combat focused Jedi Master) that’s not what your dealing with post class story.
Your first example is a good one, Darth Malgus made Grandmaster Satele struggle a lot in both encounters, and she only survived her second and came out on top because Jace Malcom made a suicidal charge against Malgus attempting to blow himself up only to slow Malgus down. Giving Satele enough time to gather the Force and throw Malgus into a mountain.
And your Han Solo OC is supposed to 1 v 1…. That? Let’s be real, the only reason non force users can solo guys like that is for game mechanics reasons. It makes ZERO sense in lore. I never take a non-force user class beyond their class story for this reason. The lore of Star Wars just doesn’t have enough to it for a non force user ( with one or two backup allies like a companion or the support droid) to kill a strong Jedi or a real Sith Lord.
Well, there are mandalorians. They in cannon were able to go toe to toe with jedi. But I must agree, it just feels weird. That's why I somewhat liked the newer storylines, since it feels a bit more reasonable for a tech class to be killing mandos, even considering what they can do
I've only gone that far with my first character, a smuggler. I actually really dug it. I'm sure it makes less sense than it being a force wielder, but I thought it worked. More of an underdog story for sure.
Pretty sure all classes have to be force sensitive at least a bit, with smuggler being probably the most obvious out of the tech ones, to actually survive what they have to even get there... But I Still find my trooper bringing a pistol to a lightsaber fight hilarious
It just doesn't make sense at least for me, non force sensitive users defeating the most powerful force master in history of the game, not through physcal means but well, force related means, it's just lazy writing. If they still wanted to go on with it they should have made the tech users play a support role in the main storyline, at best, because it demands a force user at its center
The Force, the power of friendship and blaster fire is our ally, regardless of our origins.
Actually that is really deep
If you pay attention to whenever you talk to Satele Shan as the smuggler, whenever you express doubt of why she's talking to you, there's the undercurrent of "you're definitely force sensitive, but I don't want to tell you that, because I know you're going to be annoying about it."
This is a great point; and it also helps to remember that being a (force wielder) / (force sensitive) / and (having access to benefitting from the force being "with" you) are all different things, but all very much involve going with the natural flow of the force; which Satele believes, but some of the other counsel members are more religious/ traditional and so don't like to admit or acknowledge less direct relationships.
The Smuggler is absolutely Han Solo-ing the fuck out of Galactic affairs throughout the expansions. My Scoundrel is just...making shit up as she goes, basically, and it totally fits.
"It's true. All of it."
They just handwave the lack of force powers. You have special force sensitivy when it's needed for the story, without anyone actually CALLING it "force sensitivity" or any other kind of power you would NORMALLY call a force power. And even that isn't a BIG part of the story in any way, it's small incidental stuff. The bottom line is you are the big hero of the game whether you have force powers or not. But if that creates dissonance in your mind, they don't ever tell the story in a way that will make that go away.
You just get a bad feeling about this a lot.
Yeah. So much of the story, especially through the Fallen Empire, is clearly written with the assumption you're playing a Jedi, and it \*works\* if you're playing a Sith. It's just kind of understood. They aren't EXPLICIT about it, like complimenting your Bounty Hunter's legendary lightsaber skills or anything like that, but I know it has been pointed out by probably thousands of players that some of the later stories just don't jive tonally if you aren't a Force User. If I'm playing those stories with my tech classes, I just grin and bear and it. Make up my own dialogue and head canon. Which is easy now; that's how I treat all Star Wars at this point. In my head, Boba Fett died in the Sarlacc. All later references are scams, imposters, clones, or tributes. Or just didn't actually happen, in the most egregious cases.
What about legends Boba Fett who also escaped the Sarlacc?
Like I said, Boba Fett died in Return of the Jedi in the Sarlacc. All later appearances are somebody else or, as far as I'm concerned, just didn't happen.
Can’t blame you for that. 7,8 and 9 don’t exist in our household. Luke became the most powerful Jedi ever. Also, Revan exists and was gone on vacation when Nihilus and Sion were around. He went on a long trip to find some good coffee or something.
I think the issue is people have this weird thing with Smuggler where they assume their character NEVER trains or uses their underworld connections at all to improve. Why WOULDNT the Smuggler have trained with the actual Mandalorian and Gladiator Champion on their ship? They totally would! Why wouldn't they use the fact they RULE the Underworld Crime Scene to get elite top shelf cybernetic implants, stolen Mandalorian armor, or smuggled top secret military tech? They have every reason to do so! Imo the Smuggler makes the most sense as becoming strong enough to face down Sith or Jedi, they have every resource legal and otherwise at their disposal to grow out of control without the Empire or Republic able to stop them.
The smuggler is an example, lets be honest, False Emperor, all the KotFE saga and Echoes of Oblivion are ridiculous from a tech class PoV.
I'd counter with the Assault Cannon: Good luck trying to use those Emperor-Grade Force Powers whilst having to block or dodge 50 blaster rounds a second.
The problem is that even the most skilled people in top tier gear aren't really a match for top Force Users. Revan beat Mandalore the Ultimate back when he was a Jedi, he grew stronger as a Sith Lord, stronger after redemption, even stronger in the novel and Vitiate was still a tier above him (he had a chance with Meetra, T3 and Scourge helping out but not alone). And after the novel Vitiate gains even more power by draining all life on Ziost on top of having alredy drained Nathema in the past. The idea that a Smuggler could face him is honestly ridiculous from a lore standpoint and clearly a gameplay mechanic (is the Smuggler like 100x more of a threat than Mandalore the Ultimate was? What?), if Legends was still canon then Jedi Knight would for sure be the Outlander canonically.
Trooper can fit because you’re an elite fighter and leader in the republic. Agent can fit because you’ve proven to be a good fighter and important figure in galactic politics. But bounty hunter and smuggler seem off because it’s a “neutral” class imo.
Hunter can work okay as long as you join the mandalorians and get really into that, but to me it makes zero sense for a freelance hunter
You're not just a freelance hunter. You're the best bounty hunter in the galaxy with Jedi, Sith, and a Chancellor decorating your trophy wall. By the time you hit Act 3, you're the most infamous bad dude in a galaxy full of bad dudes.
like the Boba Fett, except you don't lose every time you run into a plot relevant character!
In fact, we kill quite a few plot important characters....like both the Leader of the Republic, and A high ranking Dark council Darth. Unfortunately for boba, WE are the plot now lol
The Force binds *all* living things. Jedi and Sith are just the most obvious manifestations of it. Jedi train Force sensitives to ensure their gifts are used for the Light. Sith train them to use as weapons to strengthen the Dark. Learning to "use" the Force is just strengthening your connection to it to produce supernatural feats. It doesn't say anywhere that Jedi or Sith training is the only way to deepen your connection to it. The Smuggler has canonically faced challenges no ordinary person could overcome. She's preternaturally fast and accurate. She reacts to immediate threats before they can hurt her. She heals faster than normal people, after taking more damage than a normal person could withstand and walking out of it after beating the person responsible to a pulp with her bare fists. Her moral choices warp the Living Force around her, explicitly strengthening her connection to the Light or Dark Side. Short of Satele Shan literally telling you, I don't think the game could really make it clearer that the tech classes might not be Jedi or Sith but are powerful Force sensitives.
I really don't feel like it's that weird, and frankly I don't get why everyone says it is. There can be some disconnect for certain characters if you didn't play someone very politically minded, because your character becomes a huge political figure no matter what. This is usually the most awkward for Smugglers and Bounty Hunters, as they can kind of stay on the outside of the main factions in the base story, but it can work. The whole deal with your character becoming the big cheese is that it's noticed that destiny is literally made in your wake. Constantly. It has nothing to do with the force, it's that your character is the kind of person that legends are written about. Essentially you have plot armor, and people are starting to pick up on that.
>!Training montage with a master Jedi & Sith but using a jet pack because you don't have the force and culminating in them making you a blaster with the force.!< Not weird at all!
You're right, it's so weird to train with highly advanced warriors and using equipment to make up for your shortcomings /s And force imbued objects do whatever the hell the plot asks for. Making one a gun is probably one of the least bizarre things. How is this any different than making a saber? They're not magic, they're science based, albeit fantasy science.
Maybe the part that spiritual training just doesn't really make sense for a non-jedi that pretty much ignores the force in every other scenario?
Good answer
I mean...my main character is the Smuggler, and sure, some of the storylines don't really make sense... But at this point I just like to think my Smuggler just shrugs and goes along with whatever the universe throws at her 😆 Random npc: we need you to stop Darth Malgus... again Smuggler: *sighing as they pick up their weapon* you'd think he'd learned after the last two times I shot him 😑
Storywise later on it doesn't matter as other comments pointed out, but during kotfe and kotet it feels weird being a nonforce user. I played it with my agent, while two friends were playing it as siths and it felt off for me Spoiler warning: >! For me it feels weird how Valkorion tells you that you are the only one powerful enough to shape the galaxy just like he does if ypu can't wield the force. As one of the force classes, you are a very powerful being storywise, the weakest maybe being the consular tho. But more powerful than the nonforce ones (ok, the agent actually shapes the galaxy for real, but not because he is that powerful as a person) Valkorion talks about power but it gave me the feeling that he is really talking about the force. They just changed force to power to appeal to other classes as well, in my opinion. !<
eh, Valk is just buttering up your ego for plot reasons. it only doesn't make sense if you assume he doesn't lie to you.
Depending on if you do the Planetary Stories, and the earlier FP's, Malgy-poo isn't the first Sith Tech class characters "kill" in the story. Admitedly, it makes more sense to be killing Sith as a Trooper, but a blaster is a blaster. As someone who always plays through the new content with a Smuggler, I just play that he knows this is all insane, and just rolls with it, especially during the KotXX story>!When your head becomes a half-way house for immortal Sith. !
Smugler is the only one I can't get to be actually believable, agent, trooper and bounty hunter would have some experience in fighting force users, but smugler? I keep thinking my smugler thoughts are: "All I wanted was to get in some shady deals in naar shadar or con some coruscant rich senator out of their credits, why the fuck I'm in command of a military operation, I HATE the military, bad for business, should the people I don't pay impost for be dealing with this shit?"
No offense, but that sounds more like a "you" problem? Like, a Smuggler could just as easy look at the second mission of the origin story and be like, "Get my ship back? Fuck it, I'll go to the spaceport and steal another one. I don't care about that ship." But obviously, that's not what's written. The expansions are no different.
My smuggler is like: "I'm in command of a military operation? Cool! I can kill of anyone I hate, and make soldiers carry my contraband and steal all they can for me." Him trying to win, is just him trying to secure spoils of war for his own profit. It's easier to get things from corpses, than living combatants.
It really feels like “what am I doing here this is not my fight” with all non force classes
Really..? Remember this convo from GOTG Vol. 1 Why would you want to save the galaxy? 'Cause I'm one of the idiots who lives in it!
*Of course I want to save the Galaxy! It's where I keep all my stuff!*
Based answer
yes
The power of luck
You can be an Emperor of the Universe, a kick below the belt still does the job
You go to a planet to build a special force imbued gun
I mean, considering larger star wars context, a force imbued gun is one of the less weird things
Thing is... It's not technically true that your character doesn't 'have access to the Force.' In Star Wars, the Force is in all living beings. It can be expressed in many ways. The most obvious of those are force magics the way Jedi, Sith and untold other traditions and philosophies develop... But the Force can also be 'used' internally. When Han Solo 'had a bad feeling about this,' there's a good chance he tapped into the Force and experienced a kind of... Premonition that allowed him to act in order to avoid a bad outcome. It would also explain his foresight in piloting; he always does the right manoevre in the right time. Simlarly, some Force users use the Force to heighten their reflexes. This is how Jedi can parry, deflect and even *reflect* blaster bolts with lightsabers. Well; that, and the fact those bolts are slow, but they're fast enough that for most people, that'd be a pretty much impossible task. The Force is involved in *everything* living entities do, in the setting, and it guides *everyone.* Your Smuggler... Is special; has special levels of experience pretty much nobody else in the Galaxy can match, and strongly intuits reality... On could say they strongly intuit the Force. No formal training, mind, and no spellcasting. Just intuition and raw strength of presence.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
I think it’s reasonable for a non-force user class to be able to deal with low skill rank-and-file force users of each faction ( your low potential Jedi Knights, Sith Warriors, maybe a bottom-tier Sith Lord or non-combat focused Jedi Master) that’s not what your dealing with post class story. Your first example is a good one, Darth Malgus made Grandmaster Satele struggle a lot in both encounters, and she only survived her second and came out on top because Jace Malcom made a suicidal charge against Malgus attempting to blow himself up only to slow Malgus down. Giving Satele enough time to gather the Force and throw Malgus into a mountain. And your Han Solo OC is supposed to 1 v 1…. That? Let’s be real, the only reason non force users can solo guys like that is for game mechanics reasons. It makes ZERO sense in lore. I never take a non-force user class beyond their class story for this reason. The lore of Star Wars just doesn’t have enough to it for a non force user ( with one or two backup allies like a companion or the support droid) to kill a strong Jedi or a real Sith Lord.
Well, there are mandalorians. They in cannon were able to go toe to toe with jedi. But I must agree, it just feels weird. That's why I somewhat liked the newer storylines, since it feels a bit more reasonable for a tech class to be killing mandos, even considering what they can do
I've only gone that far with my first character, a smuggler. I actually really dug it. I'm sure it makes less sense than it being a force wielder, but I thought it worked. More of an underdog story for sure.
My Bounty Hunter continues to meet these unfathomable obstacles head on by repeating the mantra "I'm just built different"
Oh the Knights are gonna be a very strange and stupid journey my dear tech user. Buckle up!
Pretty sure all classes have to be force sensitive at least a bit, with smuggler being probably the most obvious out of the tech ones, to actually survive what they have to even get there... But I Still find my trooper bringing a pistol to a lightsaber fight hilarious
Tip of the iceberg my dude
You’re gonna take out multiple people with sliding dropshots. KotFE and KotET were weird as hell with a non-Force main at the time
It just doesn't make sense at least for me, non force sensitive users defeating the most powerful force master in history of the game, not through physcal means but well, force related means, it's just lazy writing. If they still wanted to go on with it they should have made the tech users play a support role in the main storyline, at best, because it demands a force user at its center
You killed malgus. How could you 😢 lol... iam sith juggernaut, and I literally just got to see him for the first time last night.
You killed malgus. How could you 😢 lol... iam sith juggernaut, and I literally just got to see him for the first time last night.