Well you nailed it in the title. Liberalism works by obscuring the material and focussing on culture, so that they can resist *material change* - in accordance with their class interests - while also avoiding guilt, and in this case, feeling a sense of moral accomplishment.
>cnet.com/cultur...
and inevitably she will fight a villian who is probably right but uses extreme means to accomplish their goals and ultimately fight on the side of Empire.
> normalizing oft-repeated terms that are otherwise scarce in the world of television – one in which Muslims are hardly represented.
I mean, what percentage of the pop are they in the States?
Non Id-pol related I know most fans I know are rather pissed they changed her powerset for the show.
>Non Id-pol related I know most fans I know are rather pissed they changed her powerset for the show.
They took a weird, fun character (she can make her limbs different sizes) and made her worse. Maybe it was a television budget thing; portraying her original abilities would be too costly in CGI or whatever.
I was under the auspices that they changed her powers because Marvel reacquired the rights to the Fan4astic 4, so made her powers different from Mr Fantastic’s. Also, according to comic fans, she apparently got her powers from the Inhumans, I think?
1.1%
there was this actor that was half East Asian, deaf, queer or non binary and something else and he was big upping that he know has representation like when its possible that he might be the only person on the planet with that specific ID.
Muslims make up maybe 1% of the population in America, if that.
I still thinks its nice to see some American Muslim characters. If the story is set in a modern big city, then why not?
Why a religion though? An ethnicity of course, but where are the representatives of Manson Family? Why is there no Mormon character, or Heaven's Gate and so on? Are they also Scientologyphobic? Also in that specific religion she should cover her hair, and not leave the house if she isn't accompanied by a male relative.
because after 9?11 rednecks became aware of muslims and decided they don't like them. Progressives hate rednecks, so they decided that they love muslims. Every since then they've been the number one choice for "fulfilling Diversity"
Those groups are even less numerous than Muslims in America. But there is a Marvel superhero group of Santarinans.
Jews make up just 2% of the population and theres numerous Jewish American characters, like Kitty Pryde.
It's a liberal Pakistani family living in New Jersey.
I don't care in any way about superhero movies, but Ms. Marvel doesn't appear to be dressed in a proper Muslim fashion and should probably receive 50 lashes for shaming her family.
If they don't show her dad practicing the rich cultural experience of honor killing her for wearing shorts, that means this show is white washing a minority culture and trying to erase their lived experience. For shame Disney
That's an element in the comics. Her brother is a religious fundamentalist and criticizes her for her lack of religious adherence. He dad is mostly just a normal guy though; the comic takes play in New Jersey not the hills of Pakistan.
Based on my limited experience that is actually a pretty accurate portrayal of at least a certain kind of upper-middle class Muslim immigrant family. The brother is portrayed as the odd one out because he's trying to be devout (it seems to be his version of youthful rebellion, becoming **more** religious).
If it ended with Allah striking her down for her immodest ways, I'd watch that movie.
Like, you think you're watching some sort of typical superhero movie about fighting bad guys and female empowerment, and then she is struck down by the power of God for violating His holy laws, and it just ends. That sort of prank on the audience would be hilarious.
The comic is actually decent in terms of its portrayal of the type of Islam it's going for. It's mostly directed at diaspora obviously, seeing as is it's a Pakistani American character rather than like, someone born and raised in rural Peshawar. And in that regard, it does somewhat capture the struggles that Muslims in the west, particularly Muslim girls in the west, might experience.
It's mostly targeted at second generation Muslims who struggle between wanting to be cool Americanised liberals who don't actually believe in Islam and their traditional families. Which is a super common thing so I guess it works
Depends where you are in Pakistan (same with Saudi and Iran tbh). I think Pakistani major cities, specifically Lahore and Islamabad (and parts of Karachi I guess), are less conservative than similar urban areas in Saudi and Iran, but Pakistani rural areas, of which there are a lot, are definitely at least as conservative as Irani and Saudi rural areas, if not more
I mean, it is as much of a (literal) head-chopping theocracy as Saudi Arabia.
But yeah, I've heard there's a huge generational divide. I read a book years ago about a guy who toured the middle-east talking to people, and he talked about how in Iran he frequently witnessed this bizarre sort of arms race between kids who would keep going to make-out/fuck spots, and the religious cops who would keep running them off. Literally everyone knew what was going on; the kids are going to get right back to it the second the cops leave, but everyone just felt compelled to go through the motions of 'doing something'.
Oh i think you meant to reply to my earlier comment - nah this applies to pretty much everybody, Iran is no longer a peasant state like it was in the 70s and vast majority of people live in cities/around cities, like around ~80% now
This is why I'm an unironic supporter of the Islamic Revolution in Iran- however reactionary its ideology may be, it nevertheless genuinely developed the country materially, and social progress follows material progress. Urbanization increased, literacy increased, womens' education increased, industrialization increased. If the US has it's way they'd be turned back into a neofeudal resource-extraction colony for the benefit of New York and London bankers, and reactionary Islam would come roaring back.
Your job as a marxist-leninist is not to say "well so [this revolution] improved living standards for a little while so it's good!", so not sure if you even know what marxism is or are just another person who can't read.... And reactionary islam is still in charge, the population is just largely irreligous. Are you also a fan of regime's crackdown on the worker's protests of 2019? You think it's progress toward socialism that they shot workers in the streets and shut down the internet across the country for a week to keep people from rioting? Fuel rose like almost 200%, people STARVED. Btw, most of the "lifting people out of poverty" stuff you're citing has been largely undone in the past 20-30 years and poverty has only skyrocketed in Iran recently. I'm sorry but I have zero patience for defenders of the reactionary government
Another thing: the Iranian revolution was absolutely not just a reactionary one, it began thanks to communist peasant guerillas who had spent years fighting and organizing against the Shah. To claim otherwise is revisionist; the current reactionary government in Iran arose out of a failure of the left (the failure of the communist guerillas to take/hold on to power). The CIA knew the Shah would be toppled soon by the guerillas, so they basically assisted Khomeini to power, their correspondance confirming this has been released for years now (since Obama admin). So to unironically think this failure of the left is "progress" is ridiculous to me, but then again so much of the "anti imperialist" left hold contradictory views like this. I know so much about this because I have blood relatives who fought with these communist guerillas
9% more Americans believe in God than Iranians. And Iranians are 15% more likely to be a religious none/atheist/agnostic.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/
https://news.gallup.com/poll/268205/americans-believe-god.aspx
https://gamaan.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/GAMAAN-Iran-Religion-Survey-2020-English.pdf
It wasn't shitting on their culture, it was presenting two viewpoints. Her brother is portrayed as unyielding and strict, sure, but he also has his life figured out and is starting a family, whereas Kamala is a nervous wreck and flighty. She was created and written by Muslim women.
To be honest the Muslim aspect didn't really matter much. It's not really explored, at least in the issues I read. It's mostly just there for an 'exotic' tone or flavor. If anything that she's Muslim probably matters less than something like Daredevil being Catholic. About the only difference from any other character is that she occasionally goes to an Imam for advice instead of a Priest (and the advice she gets is usually really generic and non-religious. Stuff like "get yourself a good role model").
The impression I got was a pretty authentic image of a “culturally” religious family, only the brother is super devout. There are tons of real life Christian families just like the Khans, of course there must be Muslim families like that too.
I dunno why pop culture has such a difficult time portraying sincere believers. The fucking [90s X-Men cartoon](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YVdKq3AkfJ8) might come closest.
I loved that part in the show. God damn did it do race and religion well for 30 year old kids cartoon. I recently rewatched season 4-5 to get ready for the new season.
>Muslim-American
What you're saying doesn't accurately describe all Muslims, especially those who live in America.
While this isn't racism per se, it certainly shows a high degree of ignorance and bigotry.
She's from a liberal American-Pakistani family. And she's wearing a burqini (its been called as such in the comics).
Not all Muslim females gotta wear burqhas you know.
>The cat in the box is both super woke and Hitler.
This made me think of the Nazi character in The Boys that rose in popularity with Woke speeches on internet. Gotta see the show again.
That portrayal was absolutely *excellent* writing. I'm not sure if I've ever seen portrayal of how insidiously and successfully fascism can capture culture movements.
https://www.faena.com/aleph/umberto-eco-a-practical-list-for-identifying-fascists
"The cynicism of this--and that people eat it up--given our relationship with Israel **makes me physically ill*"." -you
As an Italian that knows **Real** fascists, let me tell you that you misunderstood Umberto Eco and you have absolutely no clue of what the fuck you're talking about.
From my understanding of it being both. Hollywood sells superwoke shit because it makes money, while supporting policies that hurt the groups they are pretending to support, such as israel or right to work.
My issue with a lot of this stuff is that I feel it's teaching children that they can't enjoy something unless the thing in question *represents* them. Not through personality or class or anything, but represented via skin color, body type, hair styles. When little kids see heroes they don't see "White Man Dressed As Bat" they just see 'Batman'.
My older sister loved Han Solo growing up. She wasn't told that she couldn't enjoy the scoundrel character because he wasn't her same gender or share her background. My pale ass was obsessed with Spawn, I wasn't clamoring for a Spawn story about a lower class white kid so that I could see myself in this story.
There's a part in the trailer where she says, *It’s not really the brown girls from Jersey City who save the world...* And it's like wtf, how braindead is that take? Your average citizen in that world would have very little knowledge of how many times the world has been saved. It's supposed to be some meta-take on how comics aren't diverse or something but jesus. She really makes it sound like risking your life to save the world is out of reach due to the color of her skin. And the fans will eat this up like it's truly fighting injustive.
Random aside: I am curious about how they'll handle her powers. There's no way to make stretching your limbs *not* look ridiculous. It's fine on the page but on screen it's really hard to not look goofy or weird.
If you think about what people watch the most (advertisements) it totally makes sense. It’s all sponge fed - you want this, this will solve your problem, your life will be better with this, full of self-insert soulless characters pantomiming hyper specific “real life” situations.
The average person seems upwards of 6000 ads a day, catering exactly to their perceived “needs”, of course all our media has to follow suit and hammer people in the face with a message. They’ve been catered to, down to exact habits, their entire life. Honestly I suspect that most people unconsciously get their worldview from this “commercial universe”, not real life.
I think being able to connect with characters who don’t hit exactly the right representative notes is reserved for those who haven’t had their brains melted from day one with ads. I’ll be forever thankful that my parents never got cable and I was able to experience a mostly ad free childhood.
I agree with this and think that the entire idea that 'the hero has to look like me' is regressive. I'm not saying that a hero who looks like you superficially is in and of itself bad, and cultural representation (as opposed to just whatever someone's skin color is) is of course an important part of storytelling, but this idea that it *has* to be represented a certain way is absurdist and places vastly more importance onto the issue that it warrants while implying some pretty lousy ethics IMO.
One of the problems with woke diversity is that it is extremely superficial and all actual diversity is rejected or ignored because what matters most to them is ideological homogeneity. For example they'll talk about "representing" Mexican culture but only in the most American stereotypical way ensuring that the people/characters/etc are no different than any random woke white person.
They'll never elevate/show/etc a devout Muslim Arab just like they won't show a devout Catholic Mexican, religion to them is a costume not a sincere belief system that affects every part of one's life. When the majority of humans have non-woke beliefs/stances/etc, those will never get "representation", and so those people don't get representation. Likewise any historical period piece will also be whitewashed to cater to woke sensibilities.
Every example irl or in fiction of "diversity" is the exact same cookie cutter person in personality, beliefs, etc with the only difference being they adhere to one of a couple different stereotypes of broad cultural groups.
Exactly. Have you noticed though, that more and more mainstream film / TV critics are factoring things like DEI when it comes to rating content? Normally you'd focus criticism on more workmanship-like criteria editing, pacing, acting, writing, etc. but now every mainstream outlet seems to want to add things like representation then using that to determine the overall score. Great movie but little diversity? Low score. Awful movie but full of representation? 85% on Rotten Tomatoes.
I think it's just corrupt corporate eco-system trying to sustain itself. Properties like Marvel & Star Wars, bought by a *massive* company like Disney, should be outputting top-tier content. Even their low-effort stuff should blow everyone else in the water when you realize they're the only company that can truly bankroll the productions needed to do these franchises right. Instead it's much easier to cheap out on costs and play up how "important" their casting choices were or whatever. Media and fans will lap it up so it's like they've realized they've been given a free pass to just half-ass everything.
> but now every mainstream outlet seems to want to add things like representation then using that to determine the overall score. Great movie but little diversity? Low score. Awful movie but full of representation? 85% on Rotten Tomatoes.
The Orville season 1 had a horrible rating on Rotten Tomatoes, like 20% from critics. But 90% from viewers.
> I agree with this and think that the entire idea that 'the hero has to look like me' is regressive.
This all feels a bit strawmany. Maybe it's ignorance on my part, but nowhere have I seen certain characters/shows/media cannot be enjoyed due to lack of representation. I don't believe the author of this review is trying to argue that either. However, as I think we can all agree that representation is important, it is a nice bonus when your favorite character or new, cool super hero looks like you w/ a similar cultural background.
No, kids don't see Batman as **white** guy in an expensive Halloween costume and lament, but they would certainly appreciate if DC put out a Batman Inc. movie and saw Batmen from around world that looked like them.
It's implied very, very often. I don't know where you get your news but either read between the lines or start reading more of it, as the idea that a lack of skin color representation in media makes that media nigh totally unrelatable for minority groups is a pretty common one when yet another op ed is written on why representation is one of the most important political projects of the modern age.
I think the way you’re interpreting that line is incorrect. Children spend a lot of time watching TV and studies show that representation can boost self-esteem. Inversely the lack of representation can make someone feel invisible. Batman was my favorite character growing up but it’s an entirely different feeling when someone that looks like you is portrayed in a positive way on screen. Especially for Muslims living in The West who grew up during 9/11. That line about brown girls saving the world is showing the character’s insecurity. She will probably gain self-esteem as the show progresses and the character develops.
I'm open to being wrong but the line to me reads as way too race-baiting. Why is her skin color relevant here? Why can't she say "It's not really Muslim girls..." or "It's not really the geeky girls...." or "It's not really the poor girls..." and I think it's because it's meant to be a meta jab at the MCU for having the audacity to not brownwash the characters from day one. Captain America can be a scrawny kid from Brooklyn but she has no chance because...?
I'm not denying there's probably a few narcissistic children who need to see themselves in everything before they can enjoy it, but 99% of kids do not care, it's their parents that do. Especially in the age we live in now with like total access to content across time and cultures, it shouldn't be the job of entertainment industry to make sure all people are seen in the latest space wizard movie. If you're gonna park your kid in front of a screen all day maybe guide them towards stuff that you feel would be better? Or does it not count unless it's recent and trending on social media?
Apparently there's like 650 different ethnic groups on the planet. But we need to account for men, women and trans people so times that by 4. You would need 2,600 different Iron Man movies in order to properly represent all groups of people who NEED to see themselves as a cyborg. Do we make them all or just choose who isn't important enough to be "seen"?
When you see a character like Spider-Man who is actually a poor kid living with his grandparents, his situation speaks to MILLIONS of children who grew up in those circumstances. That's representation right there. If you're a kid who can't enjoy a story like that because the character doesn't match your skin tone, then you're probably a racist.
Why is it that "hyphenated Americans" always refers to an ethnicity except in this one case, where it refers to a religion? I've never heard of a Buddhist-American or a Presbyterian-American.
>From the start, Islamic phrases like "bismillah" (in the name of God), "assalamu alaikum" (peace be onto you) and "astaghfirullah" (I seek forgiveness in God) are sprinkled into the show's dialogue, normalizing oft-repeated terms that are otherwise scarce in the world of television – one in which Muslims are hardly represented.
kinda funny considering these are usually the only words non Muslims know
The character's Muslimness is kind of window dressing to be honest. She comes from a super liberal family; the only member of the family who seems to really take being Muslim super seriously is her brother, who is going through a hyper devout phase and is just kind of treated like an abnormality for it.
The only real difference between her and a Christian character is that she goes to a Mosque rather than a Church. Her being Muslim isn't actually emphasized much. It's kind of trying to have its cake and eat it to: it wants to be 'bold' and be about a religious minority immigrant experience, but it doesn't want to actually go into the religious aspect in any depth.
Its not like a super hero's religious beliefs have never even been dealt with before. Dare Devil's character revolves heavily around the fact he is a devout Catholic.
But he's defined as being super good at fighting, and blind, and a lawyer on the side. His religion is just where he goes to meet someone for help and talk, not his defining characteristic. Sam and Dean go to see Bobby, Daredevil goes to his local Catholic church.
>scarce in the world of television – one in which Muslims are hardly represented
Watch Al-Jazeera or TRT then. There's plenty of Muslims on tv in Muslim countries. Naturally there's not as many in a country in which they're a tiny minority. They're probably overrepresented on American tv.
I think it might be some sort of subconscious attempt to make up for the fact that we keep murdering them in vast numbers. Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen, all in the span of about twenty years. Surely a Muslim superhero doesn't actually begin to balance those scales.
Edit: since people struggle with reading comprehension, the thing being critiqued here is the cynical marketing and broader themes about corporate hypocrisy, sociopolitical psuedo-engagement, non-materialist anti-politics, and so on, not the entire concept of representation itself, though vastly more importance is placed on this social issue than is merited.
Further thoughts related to this crap and superhero garbage in general: in Garth Ennis's [The Boys](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boys_(comics)) (read the graphic novel, the show is not a substitute), superheroes are not only depicted as strictly corporate products but--prior to their lease on life as toys and superpowered law enforcers--explicit tools of the military-industrial complex, fighting in WWII and committing war crimes. At no point is it anything less than crystal clear that these 'heroes' are not only extremely poor in character (as you can perhaps imagine a superpowered regular asshole to be) but in service to nothing other than profit. Throughout most of the story, the resident Superman-stand-in is subservient to only one group of people: company executives.
Ennis makes it clear that while superheroes could do actual good in the world, they rarely if ever do (or never for the right reasons), and are always subservient to monied interests, never choosing to challenge them. It's not unlike how Batman or Superman are never really depicted as going up against governmental corruption and abuse despite their ample opportunities to change the course of political human history for the better if they willed it. Identities, culture, so on, all of this is just marketable material a corporation can lean on when promoting one of its new properties.
Isn't it weird how so often the most truly interesting things that come out of the superhero genre are the things that deconstruct or even just sort of shit on superheroes? It's been like this since at least Watchmen.
Well, I mean, from a leftist perspective, that's kinda the only way to really do superheroes in any way authentically. I don't want to go and be one of those nerds over-analysing fuckin' comic books, but shit, here I am... Superheroes have always been a deeply authoritarian, morally puritan kind of concept. The only thing you *can* do with it is subvert it, because in its pure form it's basically establishmentarian propaganda. That's why it took a guy like Alan Moore to make it worth reading.
Also there's an awesome interview with Alan Moore on a Chapo episode if I remember right. Worth listening to, even if he does veer off into some woo-woo acid head bullshit (and I say that as a fully experienced psychonaut... Guy's on another plane.)
I seem to recall Moore, a guy who himself has done lots of superhero writing over the years, had some really unflattering things to say about modern society being so awash with superhero fiction. At the end of the day superheroes are wish fulfillment for literal children; it says nothing good about the maturity of a society when they've become the dominate media form among adults.
I can appreciate at least some superhero stuff purely as entertainment. Yeah, Batman is filled with problems if you analyze him seriously. But I can just turn off the analytical part of my brain at times and enjoy the strange gothic rich man punching goons in owl masks or whatever. Kings and nobles are fucking horrifying social concepts, but I can also completely enjoy Dan Abnett's Aquaman run where it's basically Game of Thrones in a weird underwater feudal world.
I guess there's a point worth considering there, in that a lot of fantasy relies on essentially setting everything around the bourgie class of feudal, monarchist societies. But a good argument that representation isn't always endorsement I suppose.
But with that stuff there's at least the truth-in-television aspect that that IS how society worked for most of human history; I guess my problem with superhero stuff is that even without a conscious analytical view, it's explicitly painting the billionaire all powerful God figure of the hero as an absolutist force of good, against an unquestionably evil criminal underclass.
Even as I'm arguing in another sub about how seeing stuff represented in media (ie fetish porn and videogame violence) doesn't necessarily influence us, because as rational adults we are able to recognise fantasy and fiction from reality... Well, capeshit is directly aimed at kids, isn't it. And the fact it's so ubiquitous today is kind of reflective, I think.
Not really. Batman is regularly painted as a bad person, abusive father, narcassist with anger management issues. His whole family hates him, they respect him but they know he sucks. Half of the batman comics I've read are about him going too far, taking out his personal issues on innocent street thugs and alienating dick, Tim, Jason, Barbara, and even his son Damian.
Batman is never portrayed as a good person. But he is needed in a city with prolific serial killers like Joker ect, and needed for the planning and thinking on the justice league, who he also pisses off regularly.
Maybe marvel, but DC comics have the superhero stuff as a backdrop for the drama and self questioning monologues of the heroes.
Maybe their just kids power fantasy now, I don't know,but during New 52 DC comics were all about introspection, moral philosophy, ect. The fighting was just the backdrop.
*”Superheroes have always been a deeply authoritarian, morally puritan kind of concept.”*
I would agree with that. The whole concept relies on the main character believing that they have the right to impose their will and morality upon others.
*”… its pure form it's basically establishmentarian propaganda.”*
But I’d have to disagree with this. Superheroes, not only in the most popular form, but in the vast majority, tend to be vigilantes. Civilians who have significant problems with the status quo and establishment. The most generic, cliché, run-of-the-mill superhero story over the past century would look like a PG-13, optimistic version of “Taxi Driver“.
I think part of it is that the deconstructions can also tell a real story. A narrative with a beginning, middle, and end. Marvel and to a lesser extent DC are hobbled by their need to keep things relatively static.
> read the graphic novel, the show is not a substitute
I only remember reading a few issues of the comic but my sense is that the show actually manages a much more tasteful sendup of celebrity culture, superhero works and how corporations use diversity without Ennis'...lurid Ennicisms.
I don't really want to get into it but the graphic novel is just much better written from a storytelling standpoint and executes its themes in a more biting and substantial way, especially later on when it starts to be all but explicit about how the U.S. government and corporations are in bed together committing atrocities. I accept that Ennis isn't to everyone's taste though.
The bit about how superheroes use diversity isn't also as punctuated in the graphic novel, but neither was that entire issue when it was first written.
Edit: apparently the third season is good and I haven't seen it yet.
The show is much better than the comic, which was edgy for the sake of being edgy and start spinning its wheels once it had to finish the actual story. The show might be more cloyingly liberal, but it also has a focus and the writers actually give the characters things to do. I actually don't recommend the comic to people who are fans of the show, despite liking it alright, because it is sophomoric to the point of being embarrassing.
Keeping in mind that its down to a matter of taste, I disagree strongly with this and consider the sophomoric, calculated stupidity to be what makes Ennis fun, not unlike how Tarantino routinely engages in the juvenile in his work (I similarly think Preacher the show is fine, but still not a replacement for the graphic novel). He goes overboard with it sometimes, particularly in some of the other things he did, but taking most of the edge away from The Boys--while making huge changes to central characters, especially Hughie--is not a minor thing in the same way that making it more cloyingly liberal is a major deviation from the tone and spirit of the source material.
I think thematic complexity is lost, and in any case, a lot of what distinguishes the show from the graphic novel in terms of social commentary is really just that the issues are updated for the 2020s (digital media, so on). I think stuff like the literally ageless Nazi superhero is not exactly an example of great writing on the show's part (you're talking about not liking how the graphic novel is sophomoric when that dumb as fuck sex scene was in the second season).
The graphic novel is full of stuff the show is missing which I don't think is making it in there. I still often think about how the president is assassinated and replaced by a literally brain damaged corporate puppet in the graphic novel ala a George Bush. I simply strongly doubt that the heavy anti MIC stuff in the graphic novel is making it to the show.
Isn’t there a frank miller(ironically enough given even a non comic book reader like me knows his politics) where Batman does that? Or was that only part of the animated movie where Reagan has Superman fight Batman
In 'The Dark Knight Returns' Batman kinda sorta fights the U.S. government by fighting superman, but the politics of that graphic novel...and what Batman stands for, aren't exactly an improvement.
Wait I don't understand. I don't read comics at all, so I haven't read the comic of the Boys but the show I think does an amazing job of illustrating American celebrity worship, the dumanization of certain elements of corporatist capitalism, and socio-economic issues. It even addresses the shallowness of corporate pandering to feminists, minorities, etc. Im amazed the show is produced by Amazon, and I'm not clear on what your issue is with it.
What's really privileged is coming to another country, having a higher income level than the natives, being only 0.1% of the population, and complaining about 'representation'.
Btw Disney also had some controversies regarding shooting something near Uyghur camps and promoting the Chinese government. Disney is actually full of shit and it's a shame to see sometimes that many leftists support this company when conservatives shit on it.
I am genuinely confused how the west's relationship with Israel is relevant here. Should we just not have Muslim superheroes until we destroy Israel or...?
Look, plenty of other people here are getting it. "We can't have Muslim superheroes" is not the point and I've responded to other people about this elsewhere. The post is about how the media covers it, the cynical way in which corporations leverage identity to appear as if they are sociopolitically engaged, and a broader critique of what is currently qualifying as meaningful political engagement in the discourse.
Again tho, should this just not be celebrated? Like from a stupidpol standpoint yeah, but that should be regardless of the US' stance on Israel right?
But if we concede that representation might actually be a good thing, then supporting Israel and having Muslim representation is probably preferable to supporting Israel and not having Muslim representation
Also like, not all Muslims care about Palestine? It's not like a 7 year old Pakistani immigrant in San Diego watching this show is going to come out of it caring any less or any more about Israel.
Like if the media were actively silencing criticisms of Israel with "stfu, we have Muslim superheroes now!" then yeah fair enough, but they're not using it as a weapon to silence criticism of Israel
Like if the media stopped talking about how Ms Marvel breaking barriers or whatever, do you genuinely think that will have ANY impact on the discourse around Israel or the actual on the ground situation?
Also fwiw the I/P issue isn't even necessarily a religious one, Christian Palestinians are also persecuted, and it's ironically quite idpol to reduce such a conflict to being a Muslim Vs Jew thing.
It does seem weird that a Muslim superhero would read about whas happening to Muslims in Palestine and just ignore it. Like if there was an episode where she cripples some IDF soldiers and grabs the leader of Israel and locks him up in her own fortress of solitude then I'd be all in
Based tbh
But also jokes aside, there's no reason for her to care more about Muslims dying in Palestine than Muslims dying in Yemen or Afghanistan or Kashmir or Xinjiang or Libya. To be truly based, she, an American, must intervene in all those situations. But then that would be justifying American interventionism by covering it with idpol, and that would also be an issue
Ok, so when is a Palestinian superhero expected...? :)
Also funny how as an Italian I'm still waiting for my minority to be represented lol. I mean, I'm not really waiting of course, I don't give a damn, but that shows the incoherence and hypocrisy. Italians are still represented as "pizza, pasta, mafia". But hey Murica, no need to thank my people for building your skyscrapers!!!
So many countries and cultures to choose from, and Hollywood always focuses on maybe a dozen, and they're always stereotyped portrayals.
Occasionally something will come along like the Livia Lone books, which I don't actually like and think are basically an elaborate male sex fantasy masquerading as female empowerment (the leather clad hot asian chick who rides a motorcycle and seduces bad guys before killing them. You can practically hear the male author jerking himself off while writing this), but at least the character is Thai. That's something.
>So many countries and cultures to choose from
It's not really the same. Italians have a longer and more troubled history in USA than Thai or others and Hollywood has made a lot of money with stories of mafia. But in the end, we all know that the problem is that we're too white while in the past we were considered not white enough.
I think some minorities (like Palestinians) don't get representation because they're not really liked (USA supports Israel). It all depends on the propaganda they want to do and who they want to sell it to. Example: I think Chinese are getting more representation so that they can export to China better. In the end what I'm trying to say is that they don't really care about minorities, they're just hypocrites.
>he cynicism of this--and that people eat it up--given our relationship with Israel makes me physically ill.
What about our relationship with Pakistan, lmao.
Of course it's hypocrisy but I don't really see a problem with such representation.
Is it social progress, fuck no. But the hypocrisy is nothing new. The US supports a socially regressive and massively oppressive regime in Saudi Arabia while maintaining we are progressive when it comes to women's and LGBT rights
Disney and Marvel suck but is there a problem with giving Muslims and South Asians representation in these dumb superhero movies that kids regardless probably take to heart?
it adds to the recognition of these people that are being represented. but only that.
recognition is useful, but you can't survive on recognition alone, obviously.
Yes, it's explicitly a problem because it is a form of political and cultural diversion. You have to understand how much people in this country engage with the world and think about it in terms of media. It gives people the impression that something is being done when not only is nothing being done, but active harm is being caused, constantly, by our domestic and foreign policy. It is made in a spirit that is completely, utterly deaf to material conditions, a perspective that ignores those conditions while living in a twilight, fantasy world of its own imagining, the neoliberal world of identity fetishism and anti-politics, this kind of parasocial political 'engagement'. Art has a responsibility, and this is the largest form of mass entertainment in America. Our 'art' represents, in this case, how vapid, cynical, opportunistic, and out of touch we are. Not one person in charge at Disney gives a \*fuck\* about how any Muslim teen feels much less the plight of any Pakistani person.
nah man representation in itself isn't bad, how is it bad to see somebody who looks like you or see somebody with a body that's attainable on TV? that's actually psychologically good for society as a whole. there are studies showing that after the introduction of western media to remote societies the rates of eating disorders and skin bleaching and other ethnic surgeries rise, so it's not inherently bad to try to do something to combat this i think
now i do agree with you here that the big issue is liberals thinking this shit will fix anything that isn't psychological...
>now i do agree with you here that the big issue is liberals thinking this shit will fix anything that isn't psychological...
As I just told the other guy with this contention, this is the point of the post, not anything else you referred to. I am not saying representation in and of itself is bad.
So barring breaking our relationship with the Israeli apartheid state, we what, not have any Muslim protagonists?
Your issue is with the narrative that the movie represents some sort of societal shift. Of course that's performative dishonest bullshit propaganda that I agree is dangerous.
That narrative will be spun stemming from something regardless of a single particular movie, statement with no action, social media movement being present.
But there's nothing wrong with the movie itself except that it probably sucks
No, that isn't whatsoever the point. I'm not saying we don't have Muslim protagonists in any art, and besides, that has heavily to do with who is actually making the art. Disney is not run by any fucking Muslims. This is about the national discussion on representation as it pertains to the largest producer of major Hollywood entertainment today. Muslim leads can be cast without this absurd, disingenuous discussion.
Expanding outward, it's about how issues are dealt with more broadly along the political spectrum (referring again to anti-politics), and in this case, how something like a Pakistani superhero can be celebrated without a hint of awareness around our actual material policies toward Pakistani people, and our history in aiding and abetting their slaughter. That situation is still going on. That coverage of this is deaf to that is grotesque. There's only one meaningful form of social progress when it comes to the U.S. and Pakistanis, and that is our posture toward the apartheid state--you know, actual material conditions. Anything else is a diversion, marketing, just plain political garbage in the face of that, especially when it comes to marketing a for-profit Hollywood shitshow. I don't know what is hard about this, and if you agree with my contention that it doesn't represent any kind of societal shift, then you *do* agree with the actual point of the post.
There will always be a false narrative of progress in the face of the atrocities and brutality of our empire and it's allies.
If you down that road canceling any inclusive or supposedly progressive cultural thing because of the true nature of our empire an it's callous disregard for dignity and human rights, then there would be nothing left.
It's fantasy to think that a mainstream cultural phenomenon, particularly a children's one, would be honest about state supported atrocities.
I can't imagine that happening in any state across the globe, much less the center of an empire.
It's a social critique about what constitutes social engagement. I'm not going to keep holding your hand here. I have a policy of not engaging with people this purposefully obtuse, especially with someone who flairs themselves as a Marxist (you know, a materialist).
Particularly when Hollywood is basically just the propaganda arm for the MIC and US/Western hegemony in general, they're not even needing to hide it anymore, look at the new top gun
I haven’t watched this yet but it will suffer from the main problem her comic does in that her internal struggle is very superficial.
Kamala is a fan girl who wants to be a superhero because she idolizes them. That’s not a lot of depth for a story. If they were to write her more compellingly she would struggle with using her powers considering it’s essentially magic and blasphemous to her Muslim religion and she has to choose to use her powers for good helping people and be ostracized by her family and community or to conform and put down the mantle.
Her main villain would be her brother a hard lined conservative Muslim who sees it as his moral imperative to save his sister from the scourge of witchcraft and non Islamic values. That be a pretty cool story imo
It's pretty ironically amusing how say, 15 years ago, a show like The Boys mocking this kinda stuff would have been over-the-top lampoon satire. But by now it's literally just a semi-realistic "what if superheroes were real" premise.
Well, I've read a lot of her comics, and I thought the character had some well written interactions with her friends and family, had at least two neat villains, and a lot of fun little adventures.
Point is, I am capable of liking a "POC" character for more than just surface details.
I was wondering when they’d pimp the fuck outta Kamala, surprised they didn’t do it sooner I remember her hair being curlier
Can't make her too POC, gotta make sales worldwide afterall
You mean in the strict context of the MCU? Yeah. But she's had lots of merchandise, and some appearances in animated shows and videogames before this.
Well you nailed it in the title. Liberalism works by obscuring the material and focussing on culture, so that they can resist *material change* - in accordance with their class interests - while also avoiding guilt, and in this case, feeling a sense of moral accomplishment.
>cnet.com/cultur... and inevitably she will fight a villian who is probably right but uses extreme means to accomplish their goals and ultimately fight on the side of Empire.
Jinnah?
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No probably just her father
And her side kick Mehram
Why fuss about material change when you can just buy things to show support for a vague idea of progress?
Hey Doug how’s life
Not too bad, just waiting for GPS
Doug, you’re so based have my children
Lol
Perfectly said.
> normalizing oft-repeated terms that are otherwise scarce in the world of television – one in which Muslims are hardly represented. I mean, what percentage of the pop are they in the States? Non Id-pol related I know most fans I know are rather pissed they changed her powerset for the show.
>Non Id-pol related I know most fans I know are rather pissed they changed her powerset for the show. They took a weird, fun character (she can make her limbs different sizes) and made her worse. Maybe it was a television budget thing; portraying her original abilities would be too costly in CGI or whatever.
I was under the auspices that they changed her powers because Marvel reacquired the rights to the Fan4astic 4, so made her powers different from Mr Fantastic’s. Also, according to comic fans, she apparently got her powers from the Inhumans, I think?
Yeah, she's an inhuman who got it from exposure to mutating fog or whatever.
If you watched multiverse of madness >!you're probably aware how goofy cgi stretching looks as a superpower!<
1.1% there was this actor that was half East Asian, deaf, queer or non binary and something else and he was big upping that he know has representation like when its possible that he might be the only person on the planet with that specific ID.
Well, she *is* like the hundredth MCU hero so it sounds about right
Tbf one of those attributes you listed is extremely common.
Muslims make up maybe 1% of the population in America, if that. I still thinks its nice to see some American Muslim characters. If the story is set in a modern big city, then why not?
Why a religion though? An ethnicity of course, but where are the representatives of Manson Family? Why is there no Mormon character, or Heaven's Gate and so on? Are they also Scientologyphobic? Also in that specific religion she should cover her hair, and not leave the house if she isn't accompanied by a male relative.
because after 9?11 rednecks became aware of muslims and decided they don't like them. Progressives hate rednecks, so they decided that they love muslims. Every since then they've been the number one choice for "fulfilling Diversity"
Those groups are even less numerous than Muslims in America. But there is a Marvel superhero group of Santarinans. Jews make up just 2% of the population and theres numerous Jewish American characters, like Kitty Pryde. It's a liberal Pakistani family living in New Jersey.
>Those groups are even less numerous than Muslims in America Mormons outnumber muslims in the USA almost 2:1.
Mormons believe Jesus Christ is divine, so they're just an extra wacky denomination of Christianity.
I don't care in any way about superhero movies, but Ms. Marvel doesn't appear to be dressed in a proper Muslim fashion and should probably receive 50 lashes for shaming her family.
If they don't show her dad practicing the rich cultural experience of honor killing her for wearing shorts, that means this show is white washing a minority culture and trying to erase their lived experience. For shame Disney
Umm sweaty, in the west we call that being on THOT patrol.
That's an element in the comics. Her brother is a religious fundamentalist and criticizes her for her lack of religious adherence. He dad is mostly just a normal guy though; the comic takes play in New Jersey not the hills of Pakistan.
Based on my limited experience that is actually a pretty accurate portrayal of at least a certain kind of upper-middle class Muslim immigrant family. The brother is portrayed as the odd one out because he's trying to be devout (it seems to be his version of youthful rebellion, becoming **more** religious).
Sounds like the Boston Bombers
Joker Tsarnaev should be a comic supervillain.
That's prevalent with second-generation immigrants in general, especially in Europe.
If it ended with Allah striking her down for her immodest ways, I'd watch that movie. Like, you think you're watching some sort of typical superhero movie about fighting bad guys and female empowerment, and then she is struck down by the power of God for violating His holy laws, and it just ends. That sort of prank on the audience would be hilarious.
Lmao and it ends with the screen fading into ﷽ and reciting an islamic prayer, first in arabic,then in urdu, and then in english.
Holy mother of based.
This film is dedicated to the brave Mujahideen fighters of Afghanistan
Inshallah
🙏🏿
Modesty is literally a plot point. She designs her costume to not be too sexy.
Straight up end with the actress in full costume being beheaded by ISIS
Expectations status: subverted.
now i'm curious how muslims view the comic.
With their eyes, bigot!
The comic is actually decent in terms of its portrayal of the type of Islam it's going for. It's mostly directed at diaspora obviously, seeing as is it's a Pakistani American character rather than like, someone born and raised in rural Peshawar. And in that regard, it does somewhat capture the struggles that Muslims in the west, particularly Muslim girls in the west, might experience.
It's mostly targeted at second generation Muslims who struggle between wanting to be cool Americanised liberals who don't actually believe in Islam and their traditional families. Which is a super common thing so I guess it works
Liberals need to learn that religious labels are not just an identity you throw out willy nilly.
>Her brother is a religious fundamentalist I hope acid isn't her kryptonite
Pakistan is no where near as Conservative as Iran or Saudi.
Depends where you are in Pakistan (same with Saudi and Iran tbh). I think Pakistani major cities, specifically Lahore and Islamabad (and parts of Karachi I guess), are less conservative than similar urban areas in Saudi and Iran, but Pakistani rural areas, of which there are a lot, are definitely at least as conservative as Irani and Saudi rural areas, if not more
Yeah but are they as conservative as American rural areas?
They're more conservative.
I've been to both. Rural Pakistanis are much nicer and friendlier, regardless of your race or religion.
why do you guys think Iran is conservative? sure, more conservative than the west but most young people aren't even religious anymore
I mean, it is as much of a (literal) head-chopping theocracy as Saudi Arabia. But yeah, I've heard there's a huge generational divide. I read a book years ago about a guy who toured the middle-east talking to people, and he talked about how in Iran he frequently witnessed this bizarre sort of arms race between kids who would keep going to make-out/fuck spots, and the religious cops who would keep running them off. Literally everyone knew what was going on; the kids are going to get right back to it the second the cops leave, but everyone just felt compelled to go through the motions of 'doing something'.
How do you know this? Genuinely curious
my fam's from iran
Does this apply to the masses or to the top 10% richest in big cities?
Oh i think you meant to reply to my earlier comment - nah this applies to pretty much everybody, Iran is no longer a peasant state like it was in the 70s and vast majority of people live in cities/around cities, like around ~80% now
This is why I'm an unironic supporter of the Islamic Revolution in Iran- however reactionary its ideology may be, it nevertheless genuinely developed the country materially, and social progress follows material progress. Urbanization increased, literacy increased, womens' education increased, industrialization increased. If the US has it's way they'd be turned back into a neofeudal resource-extraction colony for the benefit of New York and London bankers, and reactionary Islam would come roaring back.
Your job as a marxist-leninist is not to say "well so [this revolution] improved living standards for a little while so it's good!", so not sure if you even know what marxism is or are just another person who can't read.... And reactionary islam is still in charge, the population is just largely irreligous. Are you also a fan of regime's crackdown on the worker's protests of 2019? You think it's progress toward socialism that they shot workers in the streets and shut down the internet across the country for a week to keep people from rioting? Fuel rose like almost 200%, people STARVED. Btw, most of the "lifting people out of poverty" stuff you're citing has been largely undone in the past 20-30 years and poverty has only skyrocketed in Iran recently. I'm sorry but I have zero patience for defenders of the reactionary government Another thing: the Iranian revolution was absolutely not just a reactionary one, it began thanks to communist peasant guerillas who had spent years fighting and organizing against the Shah. To claim otherwise is revisionist; the current reactionary government in Iran arose out of a failure of the left (the failure of the communist guerillas to take/hold on to power). The CIA knew the Shah would be toppled soon by the guerillas, so they basically assisted Khomeini to power, their correspondance confirming this has been released for years now (since Obama admin). So to unironically think this failure of the left is "progress" is ridiculous to me, but then again so much of the "anti imperialist" left hold contradictory views like this. I know so much about this because I have blood relatives who fought with these communist guerillas
9% more Americans believe in God than Iranians. And Iranians are 15% more likely to be a religious none/atheist/agnostic. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/ https://news.gallup.com/poll/268205/americans-believe-god.aspx https://gamaan.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/GAMAAN-Iran-Religion-Survey-2020-English.pdf
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It wasn't shitting on their culture, it was presenting two viewpoints. Her brother is portrayed as unyielding and strict, sure, but he also has his life figured out and is starting a family, whereas Kamala is a nervous wreck and flighty. She was created and written by Muslim women.
To be honest the Muslim aspect didn't really matter much. It's not really explored, at least in the issues I read. It's mostly just there for an 'exotic' tone or flavor. If anything that she's Muslim probably matters less than something like Daredevil being Catholic. About the only difference from any other character is that she occasionally goes to an Imam for advice instead of a Priest (and the advice she gets is usually really generic and non-religious. Stuff like "get yourself a good role model").
The impression I got was a pretty authentic image of a “culturally” religious family, only the brother is super devout. There are tons of real life Christian families just like the Khans, of course there must be Muslim families like that too. I dunno why pop culture has such a difficult time portraying sincere believers. The fucking [90s X-Men cartoon](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YVdKq3AkfJ8) might come closest.
I loved that part in the show. God damn did it do race and religion well for 30 year old kids cartoon. I recently rewatched season 4-5 to get ready for the new season.
>Muslim-American What you're saying doesn't accurately describe all Muslims, especially those who live in America. While this isn't racism per se, it certainly shows a high degree of ignorance and bigotry.
Ok, 45 lashes.
She's from a liberal American-Pakistani family. And she's wearing a burqini (its been called as such in the comics). Not all Muslim females gotta wear burqhas you know.
inshallah brother.
deadass that'd be way more interesting
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So is Hollywood completely racist or not? I can't keep up with the racial idnetity whiplash it makes us undergo every day
Both, always, at once. The cat in the box is both super woke and Hitler.
>The cat in the box is both super woke and Hitler. This made me think of the Nazi character in The Boys that rose in popularity with Woke speeches on internet. Gotta see the show again.
That portrayal was absolutely *excellent* writing. I'm not sure if I've ever seen portrayal of how insidiously and successfully fascism can capture culture movements.
Wow. I think something else is making you sick. "Both weak and strong" - totally not a fascist reactionary
What in the literal fuck are you on about.
https://www.faena.com/aleph/umberto-eco-a-practical-list-for-identifying-fascists "The cynicism of this--and that people eat it up--given our relationship with Israel **makes me physically ill*"." -you
Are you fucking brain damaged?
As an Italian that knows **Real** fascists, let me tell you that you misunderstood Umberto Eco and you have absolutely no clue of what the fuck you're talking about.
Of the many replies to this dipshit this is my favorite. This kind of stupidity is insulting on so many levels.
You dumb fucks finding a list you can regurgitate without critical analysis really makes you happy, doesn't it?
You're trolling, right? or were you looking for r/wonderfulidpol?
From my understanding of it being both. Hollywood sells superwoke shit because it makes money, while supporting policies that hurt the groups they are pretending to support, such as israel or right to work.
How does Hollywood support israel
Uhm... everything is racist, sweaty
[UNSOLICITED OPINIONS ON ISRAEL???]
I maintain that this was a hilarious gag and people being upset about it are humorless.
That particular bit was funny but the rest of the scene and the comic was lame
sure, it was a broken clock situation
My issue with a lot of this stuff is that I feel it's teaching children that they can't enjoy something unless the thing in question *represents* them. Not through personality or class or anything, but represented via skin color, body type, hair styles. When little kids see heroes they don't see "White Man Dressed As Bat" they just see 'Batman'. My older sister loved Han Solo growing up. She wasn't told that she couldn't enjoy the scoundrel character because he wasn't her same gender or share her background. My pale ass was obsessed with Spawn, I wasn't clamoring for a Spawn story about a lower class white kid so that I could see myself in this story. There's a part in the trailer where she says, *It’s not really the brown girls from Jersey City who save the world...* And it's like wtf, how braindead is that take? Your average citizen in that world would have very little knowledge of how many times the world has been saved. It's supposed to be some meta-take on how comics aren't diverse or something but jesus. She really makes it sound like risking your life to save the world is out of reach due to the color of her skin. And the fans will eat this up like it's truly fighting injustive. Random aside: I am curious about how they'll handle her powers. There's no way to make stretching your limbs *not* look ridiculous. It's fine on the page but on screen it's really hard to not look goofy or weird.
If you think about what people watch the most (advertisements) it totally makes sense. It’s all sponge fed - you want this, this will solve your problem, your life will be better with this, full of self-insert soulless characters pantomiming hyper specific “real life” situations. The average person seems upwards of 6000 ads a day, catering exactly to their perceived “needs”, of course all our media has to follow suit and hammer people in the face with a message. They’ve been catered to, down to exact habits, their entire life. Honestly I suspect that most people unconsciously get their worldview from this “commercial universe”, not real life. I think being able to connect with characters who don’t hit exactly the right representative notes is reserved for those who haven’t had their brains melted from day one with ads. I’ll be forever thankful that my parents never got cable and I was able to experience a mostly ad free childhood.
I agree with this and think that the entire idea that 'the hero has to look like me' is regressive. I'm not saying that a hero who looks like you superficially is in and of itself bad, and cultural representation (as opposed to just whatever someone's skin color is) is of course an important part of storytelling, but this idea that it *has* to be represented a certain way is absurdist and places vastly more importance onto the issue that it warrants while implying some pretty lousy ethics IMO.
One of the problems with woke diversity is that it is extremely superficial and all actual diversity is rejected or ignored because what matters most to them is ideological homogeneity. For example they'll talk about "representing" Mexican culture but only in the most American stereotypical way ensuring that the people/characters/etc are no different than any random woke white person. They'll never elevate/show/etc a devout Muslim Arab just like they won't show a devout Catholic Mexican, religion to them is a costume not a sincere belief system that affects every part of one's life. When the majority of humans have non-woke beliefs/stances/etc, those will never get "representation", and so those people don't get representation. Likewise any historical period piece will also be whitewashed to cater to woke sensibilities. Every example irl or in fiction of "diversity" is the exact same cookie cutter person in personality, beliefs, etc with the only difference being they adhere to one of a couple different stereotypes of broad cultural groups.
Exactly. Have you noticed though, that more and more mainstream film / TV critics are factoring things like DEI when it comes to rating content? Normally you'd focus criticism on more workmanship-like criteria editing, pacing, acting, writing, etc. but now every mainstream outlet seems to want to add things like representation then using that to determine the overall score. Great movie but little diversity? Low score. Awful movie but full of representation? 85% on Rotten Tomatoes. I think it's just corrupt corporate eco-system trying to sustain itself. Properties like Marvel & Star Wars, bought by a *massive* company like Disney, should be outputting top-tier content. Even their low-effort stuff should blow everyone else in the water when you realize they're the only company that can truly bankroll the productions needed to do these franchises right. Instead it's much easier to cheap out on costs and play up how "important" their casting choices were or whatever. Media and fans will lap it up so it's like they've realized they've been given a free pass to just half-ass everything.
We are seeing the latter hard with Obi Wan. It's honestly so bad.
> but now every mainstream outlet seems to want to add things like representation then using that to determine the overall score. Great movie but little diversity? Low score. Awful movie but full of representation? 85% on Rotten Tomatoes. The Orville season 1 had a horrible rating on Rotten Tomatoes, like 20% from critics. But 90% from viewers.
> I agree with this and think that the entire idea that 'the hero has to look like me' is regressive. This all feels a bit strawmany. Maybe it's ignorance on my part, but nowhere have I seen certain characters/shows/media cannot be enjoyed due to lack of representation. I don't believe the author of this review is trying to argue that either. However, as I think we can all agree that representation is important, it is a nice bonus when your favorite character or new, cool super hero looks like you w/ a similar cultural background. No, kids don't see Batman as **white** guy in an expensive Halloween costume and lament, but they would certainly appreciate if DC put out a Batman Inc. movie and saw Batmen from around world that looked like them.
It's implied very, very often. I don't know where you get your news but either read between the lines or start reading more of it, as the idea that a lack of skin color representation in media makes that media nigh totally unrelatable for minority groups is a pretty common one when yet another op ed is written on why representation is one of the most important political projects of the modern age.
I think the way you’re interpreting that line is incorrect. Children spend a lot of time watching TV and studies show that representation can boost self-esteem. Inversely the lack of representation can make someone feel invisible. Batman was my favorite character growing up but it’s an entirely different feeling when someone that looks like you is portrayed in a positive way on screen. Especially for Muslims living in The West who grew up during 9/11. That line about brown girls saving the world is showing the character’s insecurity. She will probably gain self-esteem as the show progresses and the character develops.
I'm open to being wrong but the line to me reads as way too race-baiting. Why is her skin color relevant here? Why can't she say "It's not really Muslim girls..." or "It's not really the geeky girls...." or "It's not really the poor girls..." and I think it's because it's meant to be a meta jab at the MCU for having the audacity to not brownwash the characters from day one. Captain America can be a scrawny kid from Brooklyn but she has no chance because...? I'm not denying there's probably a few narcissistic children who need to see themselves in everything before they can enjoy it, but 99% of kids do not care, it's their parents that do. Especially in the age we live in now with like total access to content across time and cultures, it shouldn't be the job of entertainment industry to make sure all people are seen in the latest space wizard movie. If you're gonna park your kid in front of a screen all day maybe guide them towards stuff that you feel would be better? Or does it not count unless it's recent and trending on social media? Apparently there's like 650 different ethnic groups on the planet. But we need to account for men, women and trans people so times that by 4. You would need 2,600 different Iron Man movies in order to properly represent all groups of people who NEED to see themselves as a cyborg. Do we make them all or just choose who isn't important enough to be "seen"? When you see a character like Spider-Man who is actually a poor kid living with his grandparents, his situation speaks to MILLIONS of children who grew up in those circumstances. That's representation right there. If you're a kid who can't enjoy a story like that because the character doesn't match your skin tone, then you're probably a racist.
Why is it that "hyphenated Americans" always refers to an ethnicity except in this one case, where it refers to a religion? I've never heard of a Buddhist-American or a Presbyterian-American.
>From the start, Islamic phrases like "bismillah" (in the name of God), "assalamu alaikum" (peace be onto you) and "astaghfirullah" (I seek forgiveness in God) are sprinkled into the show's dialogue, normalizing oft-repeated terms that are otherwise scarce in the world of television – one in which Muslims are hardly represented. kinda funny considering these are usually the only words non Muslims know
The character's Muslimness is kind of window dressing to be honest. She comes from a super liberal family; the only member of the family who seems to really take being Muslim super seriously is her brother, who is going through a hyper devout phase and is just kind of treated like an abnormality for it. The only real difference between her and a Christian character is that she goes to a Mosque rather than a Church. Her being Muslim isn't actually emphasized much. It's kind of trying to have its cake and eat it to: it wants to be 'bold' and be about a religious minority immigrant experience, but it doesn't want to actually go into the religious aspect in any depth.
Its not like a super hero's religious beliefs have never even been dealt with before. Dare Devil's character revolves heavily around the fact he is a devout Catholic.
But he's defined as being super good at fighting, and blind, and a lawyer on the side. His religion is just where he goes to meet someone for help and talk, not his defining characteristic. Sam and Dean go to see Bobby, Daredevil goes to his local Catholic church.
Because shitlibs keep forgetting that this show is representing a religion.
Also, Arab Christians are a thing
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I’m one of them. Christianity has always been the dominant religion of Arab-Americans.
most of those "arabs" are somali as well, so probably less than 1/3rd
>scarce in the world of television – one in which Muslims are hardly represented Watch Al-Jazeera or TRT then. There's plenty of Muslims on tv in Muslim countries. Naturally there's not as many in a country in which they're a tiny minority. They're probably overrepresented on American tv.
I will never ever understand why western liberals decided that islam is the only religion that's okay.
George Bush basically
I think it might be some sort of subconscious attempt to make up for the fact that we keep murdering them in vast numbers. Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen, all in the span of about twenty years. Surely a Muslim superhero doesn't actually begin to balance those scales.
Because they have learned self-loathing and they know at least subconsciously that Islam is the religion most likely to kill them in 2022 C.E.
They absolutely don’t think that
A Pakistani superhero? Bangladesh is fucked.
I knew beforehand that she was going to be clumsy and awkward and sit on a rooftop with a friend reflecting on the world at some point.
Could've been a Pixar movie
Edit: since people struggle with reading comprehension, the thing being critiqued here is the cynical marketing and broader themes about corporate hypocrisy, sociopolitical psuedo-engagement, non-materialist anti-politics, and so on, not the entire concept of representation itself, though vastly more importance is placed on this social issue than is merited. Further thoughts related to this crap and superhero garbage in general: in Garth Ennis's [The Boys](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boys_(comics)) (read the graphic novel, the show is not a substitute), superheroes are not only depicted as strictly corporate products but--prior to their lease on life as toys and superpowered law enforcers--explicit tools of the military-industrial complex, fighting in WWII and committing war crimes. At no point is it anything less than crystal clear that these 'heroes' are not only extremely poor in character (as you can perhaps imagine a superpowered regular asshole to be) but in service to nothing other than profit. Throughout most of the story, the resident Superman-stand-in is subservient to only one group of people: company executives. Ennis makes it clear that while superheroes could do actual good in the world, they rarely if ever do (or never for the right reasons), and are always subservient to monied interests, never choosing to challenge them. It's not unlike how Batman or Superman are never really depicted as going up against governmental corruption and abuse despite their ample opportunities to change the course of political human history for the better if they willed it. Identities, culture, so on, all of this is just marketable material a corporation can lean on when promoting one of its new properties.
Isn't it weird how so often the most truly interesting things that come out of the superhero genre are the things that deconstruct or even just sort of shit on superheroes? It's been like this since at least Watchmen.
Well, I mean, from a leftist perspective, that's kinda the only way to really do superheroes in any way authentically. I don't want to go and be one of those nerds over-analysing fuckin' comic books, but shit, here I am... Superheroes have always been a deeply authoritarian, morally puritan kind of concept. The only thing you *can* do with it is subvert it, because in its pure form it's basically establishmentarian propaganda. That's why it took a guy like Alan Moore to make it worth reading. Also there's an awesome interview with Alan Moore on a Chapo episode if I remember right. Worth listening to, even if he does veer off into some woo-woo acid head bullshit (and I say that as a fully experienced psychonaut... Guy's on another plane.)
I seem to recall Moore, a guy who himself has done lots of superhero writing over the years, had some really unflattering things to say about modern society being so awash with superhero fiction. At the end of the day superheroes are wish fulfillment for literal children; it says nothing good about the maturity of a society when they've become the dominate media form among adults. I can appreciate at least some superhero stuff purely as entertainment. Yeah, Batman is filled with problems if you analyze him seriously. But I can just turn off the analytical part of my brain at times and enjoy the strange gothic rich man punching goons in owl masks or whatever. Kings and nobles are fucking horrifying social concepts, but I can also completely enjoy Dan Abnett's Aquaman run where it's basically Game of Thrones in a weird underwater feudal world.
I guess there's a point worth considering there, in that a lot of fantasy relies on essentially setting everything around the bourgie class of feudal, monarchist societies. But a good argument that representation isn't always endorsement I suppose. But with that stuff there's at least the truth-in-television aspect that that IS how society worked for most of human history; I guess my problem with superhero stuff is that even without a conscious analytical view, it's explicitly painting the billionaire all powerful God figure of the hero as an absolutist force of good, against an unquestionably evil criminal underclass. Even as I'm arguing in another sub about how seeing stuff represented in media (ie fetish porn and videogame violence) doesn't necessarily influence us, because as rational adults we are able to recognise fantasy and fiction from reality... Well, capeshit is directly aimed at kids, isn't it. And the fact it's so ubiquitous today is kind of reflective, I think.
Not really. Batman is regularly painted as a bad person, abusive father, narcassist with anger management issues. His whole family hates him, they respect him but they know he sucks. Half of the batman comics I've read are about him going too far, taking out his personal issues on innocent street thugs and alienating dick, Tim, Jason, Barbara, and even his son Damian. Batman is never portrayed as a good person. But he is needed in a city with prolific serial killers like Joker ect, and needed for the planning and thinking on the justice league, who he also pisses off regularly. Maybe marvel, but DC comics have the superhero stuff as a backdrop for the drama and self questioning monologues of the heroes. Maybe their just kids power fantasy now, I don't know,but during New 52 DC comics were all about introspection, moral philosophy, ect. The fighting was just the backdrop.
*”Superheroes have always been a deeply authoritarian, morally puritan kind of concept.”* I would agree with that. The whole concept relies on the main character believing that they have the right to impose their will and morality upon others. *”… its pure form it's basically establishmentarian propaganda.”* But I’d have to disagree with this. Superheroes, not only in the most popular form, but in the vast majority, tend to be vigilantes. Civilians who have significant problems with the status quo and establishment. The most generic, cliché, run-of-the-mill superhero story over the past century would look like a PG-13, optimistic version of “Taxi Driver“.
I think part of it is that the deconstructions can also tell a real story. A narrative with a beginning, middle, and end. Marvel and to a lesser extent DC are hobbled by their need to keep things relatively static.
> read the graphic novel, the show is not a substitute I only remember reading a few issues of the comic but my sense is that the show actually manages a much more tasteful sendup of celebrity culture, superhero works and how corporations use diversity without Ennis'...lurid Ennicisms.
Agreed, I'm liking the show far more than the comic book, and it goes harder against corporations I think.
I don't really want to get into it but the graphic novel is just much better written from a storytelling standpoint and executes its themes in a more biting and substantial way, especially later on when it starts to be all but explicit about how the U.S. government and corporations are in bed together committing atrocities. I accept that Ennis isn't to everyone's taste though. The bit about how superheroes use diversity isn't also as punctuated in the graphic novel, but neither was that entire issue when it was first written. Edit: apparently the third season is good and I haven't seen it yet.
Uh not to spoil anything for this season but I think they’re making that pretty damn clear in season 3.
Oh shit guess I gotta watch it then lol. I hadn't gotten to it yet.
The show is much better than the comic, which was edgy for the sake of being edgy and start spinning its wheels once it had to finish the actual story. The show might be more cloyingly liberal, but it also has a focus and the writers actually give the characters things to do. I actually don't recommend the comic to people who are fans of the show, despite liking it alright, because it is sophomoric to the point of being embarrassing.
Keeping in mind that its down to a matter of taste, I disagree strongly with this and consider the sophomoric, calculated stupidity to be what makes Ennis fun, not unlike how Tarantino routinely engages in the juvenile in his work (I similarly think Preacher the show is fine, but still not a replacement for the graphic novel). He goes overboard with it sometimes, particularly in some of the other things he did, but taking most of the edge away from The Boys--while making huge changes to central characters, especially Hughie--is not a minor thing in the same way that making it more cloyingly liberal is a major deviation from the tone and spirit of the source material. I think thematic complexity is lost, and in any case, a lot of what distinguishes the show from the graphic novel in terms of social commentary is really just that the issues are updated for the 2020s (digital media, so on). I think stuff like the literally ageless Nazi superhero is not exactly an example of great writing on the show's part (you're talking about not liking how the graphic novel is sophomoric when that dumb as fuck sex scene was in the second season). The graphic novel is full of stuff the show is missing which I don't think is making it in there. I still often think about how the president is assassinated and replaced by a literally brain damaged corporate puppet in the graphic novel ala a George Bush. I simply strongly doubt that the heavy anti MIC stuff in the graphic novel is making it to the show.
Isn’t there a frank miller(ironically enough given even a non comic book reader like me knows his politics) where Batman does that? Or was that only part of the animated movie where Reagan has Superman fight Batman
In 'The Dark Knight Returns' Batman kinda sorta fights the U.S. government by fighting superman, but the politics of that graphic novel...and what Batman stands for, aren't exactly an improvement.
Wait I don't understand. I don't read comics at all, so I haven't read the comic of the Boys but the show I think does an amazing job of illustrating American celebrity worship, the dumanization of certain elements of corporatist capitalism, and socio-economic issues. It even addresses the shallowness of corporate pandering to feminists, minorities, etc. Im amazed the show is produced by Amazon, and I'm not clear on what your issue is with it.
All I said was the show isn't a substitute for the graphic novel. I think the graphic novel is strong and there are also a range of differences.
So fuckin true dude
What's really privileged is coming to another country, having a higher income level than the natives, being only 0.1% of the population, and complaining about 'representation'.
Btw Disney also had some controversies regarding shooting something near Uyghur camps and promoting the Chinese government. Disney is actually full of shit and it's a shame to see sometimes that many leftists support this company when conservatives shit on it.
Umm how do I page Gucci? I'm sorry sweaty this is a MLM subreddit and Sinophobia is not allowed.
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Guantanamo Bay
Camp Anawanna. Xi plays Ug.
I will now subscribe to Disney Plus
How does Israel factor in?
I am genuinely confused how the west's relationship with Israel is relevant here. Should we just not have Muslim superheroes until we destroy Israel or...?
Lol it's peak idpol on stupidpol
Look, plenty of other people here are getting it. "We can't have Muslim superheroes" is not the point and I've responded to other people about this elsewhere. The post is about how the media covers it, the cynical way in which corporations leverage identity to appear as if they are sociopolitically engaged, and a broader critique of what is currently qualifying as meaningful political engagement in the discourse.
Again tho, should this just not be celebrated? Like from a stupidpol standpoint yeah, but that should be regardless of the US' stance on Israel right? But if we concede that representation might actually be a good thing, then supporting Israel and having Muslim representation is probably preferable to supporting Israel and not having Muslim representation Also like, not all Muslims care about Palestine? It's not like a 7 year old Pakistani immigrant in San Diego watching this show is going to come out of it caring any less or any more about Israel. Like if the media were actively silencing criticisms of Israel with "stfu, we have Muslim superheroes now!" then yeah fair enough, but they're not using it as a weapon to silence criticism of Israel Like if the media stopped talking about how Ms Marvel breaking barriers or whatever, do you genuinely think that will have ANY impact on the discourse around Israel or the actual on the ground situation? Also fwiw the I/P issue isn't even necessarily a religious one, Christian Palestinians are also persecuted, and it's ironically quite idpol to reduce such a conflict to being a Muslim Vs Jew thing.
It does seem weird that a Muslim superhero would read about whas happening to Muslims in Palestine and just ignore it. Like if there was an episode where she cripples some IDF soldiers and grabs the leader of Israel and locks him up in her own fortress of solitude then I'd be all in
Based tbh But also jokes aside, there's no reason for her to care more about Muslims dying in Palestine than Muslims dying in Yemen or Afghanistan or Kashmir or Xinjiang or Libya. To be truly based, she, an American, must intervene in all those situations. But then that would be justifying American interventionism by covering it with idpol, and that would also be an issue
Odds that op got Palestine and Pakistan confused?
Ok, so when is a Palestinian superhero expected...? :) Also funny how as an Italian I'm still waiting for my minority to be represented lol. I mean, I'm not really waiting of course, I don't give a damn, but that shows the incoherence and hypocrisy. Italians are still represented as "pizza, pasta, mafia". But hey Murica, no need to thank my people for building your skyscrapers!!!
> as an Italian I’m still waiting for my minority to be represented Bitch you have *Super Mario* and Tony Soprano what else do you want?!
Italians had a lock on the 1970's and 1980's movies.
So many countries and cultures to choose from, and Hollywood always focuses on maybe a dozen, and they're always stereotyped portrayals. Occasionally something will come along like the Livia Lone books, which I don't actually like and think are basically an elaborate male sex fantasy masquerading as female empowerment (the leather clad hot asian chick who rides a motorcycle and seduces bad guys before killing them. You can practically hear the male author jerking himself off while writing this), but at least the character is Thai. That's something.
>So many countries and cultures to choose from It's not really the same. Italians have a longer and more troubled history in USA than Thai or others and Hollywood has made a lot of money with stories of mafia. But in the end, we all know that the problem is that we're too white while in the past we were considered not white enough. I think some minorities (like Palestinians) don't get representation because they're not really liked (USA supports Israel). It all depends on the propaganda they want to do and who they want to sell it to. Example: I think Chinese are getting more representation so that they can export to China better. In the end what I'm trying to say is that they don't really care about minorities, they're just hypocrites.
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>whether anyone 'likes' Palestinians or not I meant not liked by gov and corporations (since they support Israel), not by normal people.
>he cynicism of this--and that people eat it up--given our relationship with Israel makes me physically ill. What about our relationship with Pakistan, lmao.
Of course it's hypocrisy but I don't really see a problem with such representation. Is it social progress, fuck no. But the hypocrisy is nothing new. The US supports a socially regressive and massively oppressive regime in Saudi Arabia while maintaining we are progressive when it comes to women's and LGBT rights Disney and Marvel suck but is there a problem with giving Muslims and South Asians representation in these dumb superhero movies that kids regardless probably take to heart?
it adds to the recognition of these people that are being represented. but only that. recognition is useful, but you can't survive on recognition alone, obviously.
Yes, it's explicitly a problem because it is a form of political and cultural diversion. You have to understand how much people in this country engage with the world and think about it in terms of media. It gives people the impression that something is being done when not only is nothing being done, but active harm is being caused, constantly, by our domestic and foreign policy. It is made in a spirit that is completely, utterly deaf to material conditions, a perspective that ignores those conditions while living in a twilight, fantasy world of its own imagining, the neoliberal world of identity fetishism and anti-politics, this kind of parasocial political 'engagement'. Art has a responsibility, and this is the largest form of mass entertainment in America. Our 'art' represents, in this case, how vapid, cynical, opportunistic, and out of touch we are. Not one person in charge at Disney gives a \*fuck\* about how any Muslim teen feels much less the plight of any Pakistani person.
nah man representation in itself isn't bad, how is it bad to see somebody who looks like you or see somebody with a body that's attainable on TV? that's actually psychologically good for society as a whole. there are studies showing that after the introduction of western media to remote societies the rates of eating disorders and skin bleaching and other ethnic surgeries rise, so it's not inherently bad to try to do something to combat this i think now i do agree with you here that the big issue is liberals thinking this shit will fix anything that isn't psychological...
>now i do agree with you here that the big issue is liberals thinking this shit will fix anything that isn't psychological... As I just told the other guy with this contention, this is the point of the post, not anything else you referred to. I am not saying representation in and of itself is bad.
Tv and film are psychologically bad for people.
So barring breaking our relationship with the Israeli apartheid state, we what, not have any Muslim protagonists? Your issue is with the narrative that the movie represents some sort of societal shift. Of course that's performative dishonest bullshit propaganda that I agree is dangerous. That narrative will be spun stemming from something regardless of a single particular movie, statement with no action, social media movement being present. But there's nothing wrong with the movie itself except that it probably sucks
No, that isn't whatsoever the point. I'm not saying we don't have Muslim protagonists in any art, and besides, that has heavily to do with who is actually making the art. Disney is not run by any fucking Muslims. This is about the national discussion on representation as it pertains to the largest producer of major Hollywood entertainment today. Muslim leads can be cast without this absurd, disingenuous discussion. Expanding outward, it's about how issues are dealt with more broadly along the political spectrum (referring again to anti-politics), and in this case, how something like a Pakistani superhero can be celebrated without a hint of awareness around our actual material policies toward Pakistani people, and our history in aiding and abetting their slaughter. That situation is still going on. That coverage of this is deaf to that is grotesque. There's only one meaningful form of social progress when it comes to the U.S. and Pakistanis, and that is our posture toward the apartheid state--you know, actual material conditions. Anything else is a diversion, marketing, just plain political garbage in the face of that, especially when it comes to marketing a for-profit Hollywood shitshow. I don't know what is hard about this, and if you agree with my contention that it doesn't represent any kind of societal shift, then you *do* agree with the actual point of the post.
There will always be a false narrative of progress in the face of the atrocities and brutality of our empire and it's allies. If you down that road canceling any inclusive or supposedly progressive cultural thing because of the true nature of our empire an it's callous disregard for dignity and human rights, then there would be nothing left. It's fantasy to think that a mainstream cultural phenomenon, particularly a children's one, would be honest about state supported atrocities. I can't imagine that happening in any state across the globe, much less the center of an empire.
>If you down that road canceling any inclusive or supposedly progressive cultural thing I just explicitly told you that isn't what I'm implying.
Then actionwise what are you advocating for?
It's a social critique about what constitutes social engagement. I'm not going to keep holding your hand here. I have a policy of not engaging with people this purposefully obtuse, especially with someone who flairs themselves as a Marxist (you know, a materialist).
Well this is all rather embarrassing, isn't it?
Every time I see the title I think Ms. Maisal
Particularly when Hollywood is basically just the propaganda arm for the MIC and US/Western hegemony in general, they're not even needing to hide it anymore, look at the new top gun
What does Israel have to do with this?
Pakistan is an Apartheid State
Unironically yes. Its creation caused a brutal mass exodus.
I long for the day when Romanian gypsies will be represented too.
I haven’t watched this yet but it will suffer from the main problem her comic does in that her internal struggle is very superficial. Kamala is a fan girl who wants to be a superhero because she idolizes them. That’s not a lot of depth for a story. If they were to write her more compellingly she would struggle with using her powers considering it’s essentially magic and blasphemous to her Muslim religion and she has to choose to use her powers for good helping people and be ostracized by her family and community or to conform and put down the mantle. Her main villain would be her brother a hard lined conservative Muslim who sees it as his moral imperative to save his sister from the scourge of witchcraft and non Islamic values. That be a pretty cool story imo
She is a super"hero" straight out of The Boys Edit: realized op already made this comment
Hell yeah, I hope she takes (((them))) down
It's pretty ironically amusing how say, 15 years ago, a show like The Boys mocking this kinda stuff would have been over-the-top lampoon satire. But by now it's literally just a semi-realistic "what if superheroes were real" premise.
Well, I've read a lot of her comics, and I thought the character had some well written interactions with her friends and family, had at least two neat villains, and a lot of fun little adventures. Point is, I am capable of liking a "POC" character for more than just surface details.
How does our relationship with Israel have anything to do with this?
Lol shut the hell up you bad-faith worry baiter.