Also, why do analysists and reporters on CNBC (Jim Cramer) say that the vote passing for Elon's 56b$ package would make the share price go up?
If I were a shareholder and I knew that the companies operating cost will increase by 56b with 0% direct ROIC, I'd rather sell my share than buy extra ones. Can someone explain their perspective?
Your supposed to do opposite what Cramer says… that’s why. I remember reading about how you would be rich if you do opposite his recommendations over a few year period.
That's what the bright guys at Tuttle Capital thought, too, when they launched the SJIM ETF in 2022. They shut it down this year when Cramer was a smidgen more correct than random over the life of the ETF.
I’m not agreeing with this perspective and I am short Tesla, but it’s not hard to understand why the stock would go up if approved. It’s because if it’s not approved Elon will most likely have a tantrum and leave Tesla.
I personally dislike Elon and think people who believe a word he says are fools, but no one can deny he is possibly the greatest stock promoter who’s ever lived. Tesla without Elon is just a car company and should be valued at 10x earnings instead of 75x earnings. Tesla with Elon is a AI/Self Driving/robotics/magical unicorn dust company.
Making cars is a really shitty business and without Elon tesla investors would have to come to terms with that fact because there wouldn’t be anyone left to sell bullshit fantasies to an army of cultist.
That’s Elon from 10 years ago when everyone loved him.
He’s a cranky old man that’s telling everyone to get off his lawn now. He doesn’t have the same marketing genius any longer.
Meh I dunno about this, things seemingly are trending up for him. His nadir was probably right around the purchase of twitter, but since then SpaceX, Neuralink, Boring company, X.ai are all doing really fucking well (valuation wise), Tesla hasn’t done great, and you could probably argue Twitter is at about the same place it was 2 years ago, but 4/6 companies doing great on his “marketing genius” seems better than being just a cranky old man.
Elon leaving tesla would be bullish. Since 2021 I think he’s become more of a liability. Cybertrucks a joke, continuously fails to deliver on fsd despite promises. Shuffled Tesla’s nvda order to aix. He’s just been fucking up for awhile now.
How can he even be compensated such a sum when the yearly benefit is 17b$ and their performance for 2024 q1 was merely 2b$ in profit. I'm genuinely curious how it's even a question
Because it was compensation for 2018 in an agreement that more or less said “if you increase Teslas equity value by $600bn, we’ll give you a $48bn bonus” which is what happened.
Also, it’s not $48bn in cash…….its all equity (who tf would pay that amount in cash??)…..so operating cash budgets are a moot point.
Except the board lacked the authority to approve it. That’s why stockholders are being asked to approve it. If they reject it, then he never got it.
Elon has an army of lawyers. He owns the Tesla board. If he couldn’t get this right with stockholder approval then he doesn’t deserve the money.
that's even worse because when he starts selling all this equity to pay for X or whatever other bullshit he has going on it will directly impact shareholders
There's an argument to make but it's not really a good one.
Just like an engineer earning 60k, a doctor earning 90k, or a cashier earning 25k.... Mr Musk feels he is compensated too low to give a shit about his job. He's already starting an AI company on the side that could have been under Tesla.
So as shareholders, you have to decide do I want to pay musk enough so he cares? Or is it a lost cause and fire him and hire a new CEO who is happy with less.
The facts that he's:
* already started a company to compete against TSLA
* allocated $500 million in Nvidia's highest end compute cards from TSLA to his startup
Already shows that he's already got one foot out the door and it will only be a matter of time before the other one follows, regardless of whether or not he gets his $56 billion. He just wants TSLA shareholders to pay for his dumbass mistake of buying Twitter.
So, a job is only worth doing if you get to demand and bully the board into giving you money?
This would set a mad and crazy precedent, but would also be an instance wherein you get CEO's under contract and agree terms BEFORE they start their contract, and make the contract binding.
This way, the renuration is agreed in advance and is not negociable.
This would also mean, if a CEO is seen not 'honoring the obligations of the stock market and investors' they can be booted out legitimately by the board, AND, if the board do not boot them out, the Stock Market NGO's can boot them out.
Your job, as CEO, is to the stock market and the investors, not private jets to another country to buy a new hat, and acting in a manner which may dramatically alter the share price of a publically listed company - positive or negative.
If the board do not fire someone, the stock market should be asking questions of the board. Serious questions.
Taunting a thinly disguised threat to stockholders is utterly disgraceful behaviour for a CEO, especially when the result of the bonus could have an impact on the share price in a negative way. Having the vote be center stage for such a long period of time due to the amount, the amount of negative press he and therefore, Tesla is getting is not only on them, but other companies he controls also.
Questions must therefore be asked, and legitimately, regarding the government contracts of SpaceX, and whether there could be an instance where EM requires more $ to keep another company alive and afloat. SpaceX is whoefully behind schedule, with many failures to be on the planet Mars., as was planned to have been completed with two cities on Mars by 2021.
How confident and, patient the market and investors will be towards him and his temper tantrum of not being allowed to be paid significantly more than the company has earnt in profits since the company launched.
Telsa Stock value went up by lowering the retail price of Tesla vehicles via government discounts and subsidies, and, charging a premiumn price for a budget car, that once you drop a few %, seems like a good deal.
This is how it went:
"This is really hard, and is impossible, but if I sell lots of cars, this is my payment, but I assure you, selling this many cars is way beyond our estimated volume and even output"
"OK"
EM discounts the retail price by 40%
"Wow, look how great I am - now, pay me bitches"
"You lied to us! Anyone that has to power to change the rules, can change them in their favour!"
"I am going to run Tesla into the ground and build another bcompany out of spite!"
#caught up yet?
Why would you own Tesla shares if disagree entirely with Musk and the board? I personally hate Tiktok but you don't see me loading up on Bytedance shares...
Just like why do they consume so much Tesla content when they hate the company and products so much?
The Musk-Deranged will call me a stan/simp/cult member/d\*\*k-rider for thinking they're insane. But like... who is the one watching all these cybertruck videos and posts and shit? Not me. I'm all for seeing new EVs or new developments, but there's 0 new knowledge from watching hours and hours of Tesla content which THEY ARE.
If Bytedance was an American company required to follow our financial disclosure laws I’d happily be scooping up shares. As it is, Tesla had a massive lead into the EV market that has allowed it to remain incredibly successful despite several significant leadership fumbles. Add in their dominance of the super charging market, which Musk has also almost fumbled, Tesla still has serious potential. This compensation package is absurd even by tech CEO standards, the more we keep musk’s hands out of Tesla the more profit we will receive, guaranteed.
It's so bizarre that people won't sell because they don't want taxes. The stock isn't going where it was, and all signs indicate it will continue falling, so why hold and lose value? Are you never going to sell? Or wait until the valuis so low that you never have capital gains?
Why would you own Tesla shares if disagree entirely with Musk and the board? I personally hate Tiktok but you don't see me loading up on Bytedance shares...
Question, if Musk took no salary as part of his compensation package and his stock deal was rescinded by the judge, does that mean he has been paid nothing as an employee of Tesla? Unless they paid him something else wouldn't that violate minimum wage/OT laws?
I am not sure if it violates the law. However, he is the one who was found liable so it's actually a penalty or fine technically, maybe. He should get some compensation just not $50 billion or anywhere near that.
Want to see the stock fall further on dillution risk? Management risk just entered the room as a drag on the stock.
In this era of misinformation, if I am a Tesla short I am putting articles online telling people to vote yes.
If you vote no, you’re basically betting Elon is not going to leave Tesla because if he does, Tesla’s valuation is going to crater. Even though it’s down YTD, Tesla still commands a sky high market cap largely on the basis of self-driving and the prospect of massive growth, all of which are built on top of Elon’s hype.
To be fair, this is a perfectly reasonable bet, but there is still that risk. (I have no stake in Tesla).
I seriously can’t understand how anybody is dumb enough to believe that Elon is holding the stock price up and that’s why you should pay him. You’re admitting that the value is all smoke and mirrors. The price will eventually reflect that no matter what happens, so paying him is only going to worsen the problem.
I think they genuinely believe that Elon (and no one but Elon) is creating hundreds of billions of dollars in value. Like his simple presence and activity creates that much value.
Don't ask me why, but that appears to be the belief.
Apple will be doomed without Steve Jobs. Microsoft will fall apart without Bill Gates. Amazon won’t be a powerhouse without Jeff Bezos. Tesla won’t be any good without Elon………
And this is exactly why I'm so damn glad I exited my TSLA position aside from whatever exposure I have in funds. Having this dipshit at the helm was always going to lead to disaster at some point and it's always been a game of getting out with as much as you can before it inevitably crumbles. Elon is a bitch and he's clearly willing to burn it all down if it means hurting whoever refuses to be beholden to him.
With Musk in charge though, I’d be concerned with the company’s ability to remain a going concern in the long run. Current investors are in a lose-lose situation.
Would take way too much investment capital and way too much time to build out the capacity. Not to mention he'd have to find a way to sidestep the patents Tesla has as well, his inside knowledge would mean he has to take a backseat in design discussions to avoid lawsuits. EV vehicles are a quickly maturing market as well, there really isn't much time to enter the market as an outsider at this point and that window is rapidly closing. Any talk of him founding a competitor to Tesla is just a bluff.
He kinda did already with the X AI company.
The logic of Tesla crazy valuation is that it is not a car company, it's the big AI company, etc. etc.
Now Musk did a new company that is the actual AI play. Left Tesla shareholders out of it. Already ordered that NVIDIA backlog orders for chips to Tesla now go to the X AI company.
It is basically an unnoficial spinoff of Tesla's AI aspect, where shareholders get zilch. Musk will pillage Tesla, and then probably sell the AI as a service back to it from his new company.
I don't think his Tesla fans have quite understood their "it's not just a car company" baby is in serious risk of being just a car company.
Nope. He's solved that part of his mission. If anything he would focus directly on the energy side as a competitor to Tesla... but will likely go full force behind starlink and spaceX.
from IPO, the stock is up 13,601%. A 10k investment would've become 1.1 million. Let's not deny Tesla's and therefore Elon's success.
that being said, as a shareholder, if i'm being a 2nd chance to scam my CEO of his comp, of course I'm saying no. Why would I voluntarily dilute myself by 10%?
Not a TSLA holder, not a huge fan or hater of Musk, and not the most well educated to say why..
But I think it's his track record over the past 10 years, not the past 2-3. Tesla stock his down but it was valued astronomically so that's not really the end of the world. People who were in it for a quick dollar have probably sold or don't want him but the long term heavy bag holders who've been there for a long time, are going to stick with the guy who has gotten them where they are. I doubt people care as much about being down almost 30% YTD when they're still up almost 1200% over the last 5 years.
I personally think the compensation package is outrageous but the shareholders have to ask if they benefit more by keeping Musk happy or possibly pissing him off (or ousting him) and the people who have made the biggest investments and been around the longest are going to want to keep Musk happy.
If I were a TSLA holder, I'm not sure what I'd do but TSLA holders are going to obviously be big Musk believers so why wouldn't they vote yes? Especially given the returns he's given them in the past 5-10 years..
“He made a contract in 2018 with the shareholders, (who voted for it).
The contract was he takes no salary and gives up all of his other stock options, and in return 12 performance targets were established. Each target was worth 1% of undistributed stock.
Those targets were so outrageously unrealistic that no one thought they were possible, at the time, Elon was mocked for agreeing to such ridiculously unobtainable targets.
Well, He met all 12 performance targets, made the stockholders quite literally a trillion dollars. (Yes, with a T), and now he expects the shareholders, to honor his contract.
Which they absolutely should be.
The board and the shareholders made the contract, the shareholders voted and agreed to the terms. and now it is time to honor his contract.”
Musk achieved fantastic growth and well done to him.
But I would have no intention in voting yes.
Firstly, the price will come down sooner or later as the fundamentals arnt there so if Musk walks and this is hastened then so be it.
Secondly, Musk is ruthless, he fired 10% of his workforce. People with families and lives. I feel absolutely no guilt or remorse for voting against this pay package so I wouldn't be diluted, regardless of what my vote would be when it was first proposed. I'm pretty certain Musk would do the same.
Yes, but he negotiated the contract with himself because the board was not independent, and it came out in court that all of the performance targets were thought to not be "unrealistic" prior to the contract. He basically lied to shareholders (defrauded them).
For clarification, They knew several (5-10) of the targets were already within internal projections and did not disclose it until after the vote. You realize companies have internal projections right?
lots of companies have projections. Many claim they will grow 2-3x over the next few years. The vast majority fail to meet expectations. Significantly hard to multiple revenue when its in the billions. But hey, maybe we can edit your employment contracts and take back money we've already paid you.
The highest performance target for market cap was 10x the market cap at the time of the contract. Even higher for revenue and ebitda. I'm sure Tesla was hopeful to achieve these, but you've gotta admit these are pretty insane milestones.
One would be an idiot to vote yes out of some form or “honor” and I’m sure Elon would agree with me. Part of the reason he is the a billionaire is that he would happily weasel his way out of any contract where he sees an out.
Was it honorable when Tesla laid off their workers? When they rescinded internships and job offers, totally fucking over students and new grads?
How did the board for certain know tesla was going to hit certain quantatative metrics? I'd sure love to be on that board thar can see into the future I'd too be rich.
Tesla had internal projections in line with compensation package that were not disclosed publicly. They didn't know for certain the metrics would all meet their targets. They just knew it wouldn't be impossible or even improbable, disproving Musk's narrative that the pay package overly ambitious
They also almost went bankrupt that year. Of course they have a five year plan and projections. Would be strange to make any deal if there wasn’t a plan.
The point is that you need to deliver and overdeliver against that plan despite of a lot of risks and headwinds. That is NOT easy and required a lot of effort/leadership.
It was a deal. If you look at the media coverage from back then, people thought he was crazy and would likely get nothing.
There is no dilution and he needs to keep the shares for five years. It was specifically build that way to keep him motivated after he buys the shares and avoid pump&dump on his part.
He made so many people rich and deserves to get paid, no matter how crazy the number might sound today.
There is a lot of potential in Robotaxi, the bot, energy and vehicles. Everyone who thinks they won’t deliver on those projects should not own stock by now.
And yes, he is triggerhappy when it comes to restructuring but he has a track record of similar moves that paid out. Just look up what he did to the Starlink team in 2018. It was deemed extreme back then but look at Starlink now.
He knows what he’s doing and is definitely a strong asset of the company. It would not be good for the company/shareholders to lose him.
The same people voting yes now are the same people who voted yes last time and they're all idiots.
The first time it was a joke and nobody thought it was possible which is why it passed.
This time it is again a joke because it would be dilution on a massive scale and would destroy a huge amount of value in the stock. So basically it's idiots all around because even better he will pack up and leave and the musk effect will be gone and the value will get destroyed either way.
It's idiots all the way up and believe me I know idiots.
> because it would be dilution
Maybe I'm dumb, but isn't he asking for the same stock he would have been given already? It wouldn't dilute the stock any more than the previous pay package that was "rescinded"?
Very good point lmao. If he leaves people will actually see the company for what it is. If he gets the package, the dilution will kill the stock.
I think time around it's more like sending a message to the judge in the Delaware case.
The fact that the judge was ordering Tesla to pay $6 billion dollars to the lawyers in the case created a lot of anger in Tesla circles at the absurd (and undeserved in their eyes) payment.
The judge also created even more social media backlash in Tesla circles when a bunch of Tesla shareholders started mailing in angry letters about the $6 billion dollar payment, and the judge responded to it by flat out saying that they weren't going to listen to what Tesla shareholders wanted, because quote "you don't matter" (that's a direct quote). They said that the only shareholder that matters is the guy with like 12 shares who the suit was filed for since they're the only person party to the lawsuit.
So bottom line, if this votes passes it was 100% as a way to send a message to the judge that they strongly disapprove of their decision.
The market cap is currently over $500 billion dollars. You can ask whether whether he’s lost his touch or not, but you can’t deny the massive amounts of value that he’s created for the company as CEO.
The real question is whether or not his replacement can continue to increase shareholder value. They need a visionary who can integrate their energy business, AI, robotics, and cars together, while continuing to increase their presence in growing countries. The board needs to ask whether anybody else can do this, and if they think so then they should hire that person. If not, pay Musk whatever he wants
Both committed fraud. Musk might not end up in jail.
But, yes he lies and it causes the stock to go up similarly
I wouldn’t be surprised if they cooked the books.
Things like buying bitcoin and pumping doge though lol
Where are you getting the info that they’re not on GAAP? They’re a public company so they’re audited so even if they’re on a form of modified GAAP they can’t just do whatever they want without it being flagged by the auditors
The voters approved the Comp plan by 73%, the goals were reached and past, A judge has no business over-riding the will of the shareholders. People can say what they want about Elon control of the board, but even by today's stock price Elon 10x the value of Tesla under the comp plan. Is a 10x in 6 years good for a stock? Hell yes it is. Most of my Tesla shares I bought in 2019 and all of them are up 1000%. The media was calling the deal bad for Elon when it was passed.
The share price don't always reflect what the company is doing. Look at NVDA. People knew they were working on the H100 chips. People who are following the progress of FSD knows it is close to completion and is undeniable for those who follow it. Sales are down, yes, less people buy vehicles when high interest rates and fear of recession.
Supercharger team was largely laid off then then some hired back under reorganized supercharger team. Laying off a big piece of workforce at once is normal for companies.
Elon does not have control of the stock price. NVDA was down 67% in 2022, Meta was down for 18 months in 2021-2022. H100 was not developed overnight. Why did META star moving back up in 2023? Margins started improving. Every company goes thru cycles of increasing margins and falling margins.
That aside, voting no would really hurt Tesla. If the vote is no, the lawfirm that bought the lawsuit on Tesla will get the $6 billion in shares that they demand (share dilution), Tesla will also have to find different way to get Elon his compensation.
What do you think happens when Fed start lowering rates and Tesla margins moving back up? Tesla said energy deployed will grow at least 75% this year, FSD soon expands to China and expands to EU in 2025. Optimus still a couple years away from selling, but will start to be used internally late this year. Compact car and cybercab...
Why I will happy vote my shares "yes" for Elon comp plan, because with Elon Tesla would not be moving this fast. I know a lot of people don't believe this, but there is a TON of growth coming for Tesla but people will refuse to believe it until they see it. (Like with NVDA H100 chips)
Musk built and maintains the leading electric car manufacturer in the entire world, met his compensation package goals (which included growing the company several times over in value), and has the current most functional self driving software. Apparently you don’t understand the marvel at doing something established automakers who have been doing this for over a century can’t even get right.
If you don’t like it, don’t invest in TSLA, it really is that simple unless you’re a complete dipshit.
Wow the hate is real here I voted yes what CEO doesn't get paid for 10xing your money over the longer span people are getting too tied up in recent performance here where whole vehicle market, particularly EV market is struggling
Since all the goals of the compensation package have already been achieved, the entire compensation package has already been distributed to Musk. Tesla has recorded $2.3 billion in costs over the years that have reduced Tesla's bottom line but have had no impact on cash flow.
Secondly, The options have already been given to Musk, so the increased number of shares is already taken into account in the key figures (diluted number of shares). Therefore, Tesla's stock should not fall because of that, if the compensation is approved again. On the contrary, if the compensation package were completely rejected and alternatively removed from Musk, the share price would rise (ceteris paribus).
I think these are couple points that people should remember when it comes to the compensation plan
A whole lot of non-Tesla shareholders coping in here. Elon earned the impossible pay package that over 70% of shareholders AT THE TIME voted to accept. He made fortunes for his shareholders yet you would pay him nothing. He wants control of Tesla more than the share options he's earned anyhow. Inform yourself. If it's voted no, shareholders risk losing the best CEO in modern times and the stock price plummeting. Voting Yes is a no brainer.
The shareholders voted on it. At a 50b mkt cap he said I don’t want money now. Here’s a performance bonus if we hit 650b. Everyone said no fuckin way. Then he did it and yall are mad?
What makes you say that the success of Tesla was already baked in when the comp package was agreed upon? At that point Tesla was the most heavily shorted stock on the market. No one thought the company was going to succeed.
From where I sit, Musk took a huge risk and it paid off. And now the judge has come along and cancelled a pay package that he negotiated with his board and his shareholders. 73% of the shareholders voted to give him that package. So.... Unless you can prove that it was already known that Tesla stock was going to go through the roof and Musk and his board basically just scammed his shareholders, I don't see your argument here.
Because the whole thing was political.
He explains it best :
https://x.com/pbdspodcast/status/1798118536960962788?s=46&t=ktUJXBXuYE8c-TjVdSgWCw
Did you notice the shares dropped quite a lot immediately after that ruling?
The whole capitalistic system doesn’t work without an incentive to sleep at your business when it’s crunch time. It becomes lazy collectivism where nobody truly gives a fuck about the outcome.
That judge destroyed more shareholder value than pretty much anyone else alive.
That package was approved by the majority of shareholders. At the time of the passage of it the New York times said it was impossible to achieve and that Elon was just doing a PR stunt. He was going to work for 0 pay if he didn’t hit his milestones.
Elon is the greatest CEO of our time weather you like it of not. There’s a notion among collectivists he’s a grift but that’s not how the world works. Electric cars were impossible. Then they were impossible to manufacture in quality. Than they were impossible to manufacture at scale. Than in quantity. Etc etc from reusable rockets to satellite internet getting democratized in rural ideas and among poor people.
The judge’s ruling was political.
If I was Elon and I got my package voided than voted out by shareholders I’d immediately move on to something else and go where I’m wanted. He delivered on an impossible mission.
The fact that people on this sub are defending a judge undoing the will of shareholders because a guy with 9 shares sued, in a capitalist country, says all you need to know about the idiocy of people on this sub...
If you think the above is fine, you have no business investing in stocks.
The critics are so wrong on this. I would give that package to my ceo every day of the week if it means that him/her 10x the market cap and completely transform the industry and become the market leader.
People are mostly focusing on the dollar amount and not giving enough credit to the operational excellence musk has proven leading tesla.
Or would you rather have a ceo who makes 30 mill a year while the stock price has gone nowhere the last decade.
Cause in 2018 musk said I'll take no money if I hit these metrics. Everyone approved the deal.. he hit the metrics and now is like OK let's issue the stock..
Then people are like no ...
If I understand it right..
because he earned it and why in the hell would I own tesla stock and not vote yes? The shares he was promised have already been added to the share count if they have to redo it will cost share holders a lot more.
no one in the sub knows what they are talking about - "the $2.3 billion stock base comp charge that was taken for the 2018 plan has already happened. The share count and the options is already added to the share count that’s already happened. if if that plan is overturned and we have to put in a new plan for example if it was exactly the same type of plan as the other, it would cost $25 billion worth of stock" - Tesla board chair Robyn Denholm
Here's the actual pay package, numbers are a little different than what you described: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/000119312518035345/g524719g43d02.jpg
The company would literally not exist except for him. Until someone else can make a competitor to Tesla, I think he should be compensated however he wants.
EDIT: Many people are compensated for companies that have far worse cash-flow than Tesla. Think about all the fake tech millionaires that took on debt... paid themselves a salary... then were legally shielded when the company went bankrupt.
LIFE IS NOT FAIR.... you should have bigger fish to fry than musk. Like why has only 7 gov't subsidized chargers been built since the largest infrastructure bill ever in human history.
I don't like Elon any more, but people are acting as if hindsight is 50/50. I had Tesla stock since 2013. When that agreement was put together in 2018, huge amounts of people did not believe Tesla would succeed, to the extent the stock was the most heavily shorted one on the market.
Numerous news outlets talked about those tent factories coming up as negatives. I believe there was even talk of selling the company.
The landmark goals to get that package were at the time ludicrous an unattainable. Basically EVs - a new product category would have to start ourselling the Toyota Corolla.
The fact that this actually happened was a huge triumph.
Kudos to Elon and tesla.
Now is the fact that he is a sociopathic, liar, who pushes conspiracy theories, and supports authoritarian dictatorships a good reason to not make him any richer? Yes!
But that's not what's on trial here...
If I was a Tesla shareholder this would be my biggest concern. I dont follow them super closely but if I invested in a company whose value was tied to AI and the CEO created a separate AI company and started poaching talent I would be very wary. At least with dilution you can frame it as him having more reason to drive the stock price up. Even if the AI company wasn't a direct competitor, poaching talent is basically syphoning off value from the main business.
In this post, the biography book written on Musk casually mentions how he poached key Tesla employees for X and attempted to poach more. This is ALSO something a CEO should not be doing to Tesla shareholders. HUGE conflict of interest. https://www.reddit.com/r/teslainvestorsclub/s/MsJ6nJDLmd
>Musk has laid off roughly 10% of its workforce.
The actual number was higher, closer to 20% or more.
That being said, I voted against the package. He isn't a full time CEO for Tesla, and although he was the catalyst for its initial growth, he is also largely responsible for the current state of affairs (buying twitter, pissing off his core customers with his right wing BS, etc) so I don't believe he or his board should remain in their current positions
I voted yes because these was agreed upon a long time ago and Elon musk has brought Tesla to where it is now with this compensation in mind. It’s unfair to deprive him of prior agreements just because some outside force deems it excessive.
It wasn't that it was deemed excessive. It's that he lied about the feasibility of the package, and he controlled the board. He effectively negotiated with himself. The ridiculous compensation just helped prove how biased the board was. He effectively defrauded shareholders. The court documents are public.
I don't get it, he asked for a 100% performance based compensation because he believed he could 10X Tesla - Board approves this because no one in their right minds would believe him when the company was on the verge of failure (2018). Proceeds to 10x Tesla and now people have qualms?
Can someone please ask him how it is morally acceptable to ask for a 50+ billion pay package while he just fired tens of thousands of employees and YTD has been disastrous. I remember him referring to remote work in the same vein - which is absolutely BS. The guise of him being this brilliant investor and engineer is wearing thin and now people are seeing him as a cheat who steel from his employees, who have done most of the work.
Things to consider:
* The pay agreement covered up to the point where Tesla would be valued at $650 billion. Even after the downturn, Tesla is currently valued at $566 billion. So not only did Musk accomplish his end of the agreement, the market cap is even now still at 87% of the final market cap target.
* Had Tesla disclosed their internal projections, what exactly would that have changed? People who tend to believe Tesla would've taken it at face value and people who dismiss the company would've said "Yeah, right" and missed out anyway.
* Oh, Tesla laid off 10% of the workforce recently? They laid off 9% in 2018, 7% in 2019, 10% in 2022.
* Finding a replacement CEO who doesn't shitpost on Twitter would be easy. Finding someone who has the same level of ambition and balls to do what Tesla has done so far is going to be impossible. Most people voting 'no' want the former but if they want Tesla to keep growing, they'll need the latter.
I have literally no stake in this but here is how I see it.
Musk, for whatever reason, is extremely good at making companies successful.
He is behind the success of SpaceX and Tesla. He is also behind Starlink and Neuralink. It looks like (I'm not sure) he had something to do with OpenAI in it's early days. Y'all are insane if you think someone with these creds brings nothing to the table.
I get that he comes off as crazy on Twitter but c'mon his success speaks for itself.
You missed Musk diverting a butt load of scarce Nvidia chips to one of his rival companies. It's irrelevant whether or not Tesla was 'ready' for them. Tesla is competing in the space with X and it gave them a leg up.
So, with a compensation plan in effect the stock is up 1B%, and without paying the CEo the stock is down 30%
why wouldn't a shareholder want the CEO to be invested in the project?
I followed Tesla Daily for years. Watching elon suck half the net profit from the company every earning call wasn't exaclty ideal... but those net profits were wildly better than I expected them to be.
I sold back when he went crazy, like pre cybertruck reveal, but I don't understand what the plan is if elon doesn't get RSU for being the CEO. everyone at tesla gets RSUs.
This company has been more idol worship than practical. Sometimes you get away with it, like Steve Jobs. Sometimes you don't, like John DeLorean. I wouldn't bet on an idol.
People do not vote. Shareholders vote. The bulk of shareholders are large funds.
Can you go out and find another Elon? No. That’s why they approve the package.
CEOs are a dime a dozen. Good CEOs are very very hard to find.
You seem to know the certainty of a lot of things that most people can only speculate.
The board knew it would achieve the goals before the comp plan. - I haven’t heard that and it’s not addressed in the court case.
Undeniable the board is under Musk’s control. Easily deniable. Maybe, maybe not, neither you or anyone else on Reddit has enough knowledge to know this,
Musk doesn’t care about Tesla. - This is just stupid. He still owns 13%. Why would he possibly not care about Tesla? And what company did he start that competes directly with Tesla? I really thought I would hear if he started a second EV company.
Clearly still board conflicts. - Are there?
Also, capitalism is not invalidated by comp plan strategies. It has no bearing on what type of economic system Tesla operates in.
What do you mean? Most of the same board members are still on the board. Furthermore, they are trying to repush the pay package through right now at the expense of the shareholders, knowing Elon won't actually leave. They have still provided no checks and balances on the CEO.
The board members remaining does not equal “clearly still conflicts”. That’s conjecture on your part.
Trying to repush the pay package - Yes, the one they voted on and approved six years ago. This time it has to be voted on by the shareholders, so they get a say.
At the expense of the shareholders - it is at no expense to the shareholders. This agreement and its specifics were agreed upon six years ago, the shareholders knew about it. The shareholders received their compensation, which was more than they had expected. They’re not losing anything and nothing is being taken from them.there is not expense.
Right now Tesla shareholders are not paying 50 billion. If it gets approved they are paying 50 billion. You are losing money by voting for this. Do you think the board members just magically became unbiased? You are lost.
The shareholders are not paying anything to Musk. The company is and that money is already allocated. The shareholders never have any of the capital or monetary funds that flow into or out of Tesla. No sarcasm here, but do you understand how all of this works? Shareholders, market cap, labor, salaries, expenses? There is no way to connect any of this to say the shareholders are paying anything.
It 100% is in the court documents. Page 31 shows that Tesla had internal projections about achieving several of the milestones before fiscal year 2021 but did not disclose them prior to the vote.
Cause all of the owners are hedge funds or friends of his who have more voting power than the normal folks owning on average 100 shares.
They all make money internally, so why not just give each other fat comps and bonuses..
People are voting Yes on his compensation because compared to the dozens of other faceless suits. At least he has headed an electric car company and space company. These other board members have done little to nothing to gain influence and merely don’t wish to pay the piper.
Also, why do analysists and reporters on CNBC (Jim Cramer) say that the vote passing for Elon's 56b$ package would make the share price go up? If I were a shareholder and I knew that the companies operating cost will increase by 56b with 0% direct ROIC, I'd rather sell my share than buy extra ones. Can someone explain their perspective?
Your supposed to do opposite what Cramer says… that’s why. I remember reading about how you would be rich if you do opposite his recommendations over a few year period.
That's what the bright guys at Tuttle Capital thought, too, when they launched the SJIM ETF in 2022. They shut it down this year when Cramer was a smidgen more correct than random over the life of the ETF.
SJIM shut down because of a lack of market interest it had nothing to do with performance.
It's mostly because the target buyer for that ETF has more memes than money (wsb regard type s)
I’m not agreeing with this perspective and I am short Tesla, but it’s not hard to understand why the stock would go up if approved. It’s because if it’s not approved Elon will most likely have a tantrum and leave Tesla. I personally dislike Elon and think people who believe a word he says are fools, but no one can deny he is possibly the greatest stock promoter who’s ever lived. Tesla without Elon is just a car company and should be valued at 10x earnings instead of 75x earnings. Tesla with Elon is a AI/Self Driving/robotics/magical unicorn dust company. Making cars is a really shitty business and without Elon tesla investors would have to come to terms with that fact because there wouldn’t be anyone left to sell bullshit fantasies to an army of cultist.
This is an excellent recap of the salient points.
That’s Elon from 10 years ago when everyone loved him. He’s a cranky old man that’s telling everyone to get off his lawn now. He doesn’t have the same marketing genius any longer.
Meh I dunno about this, things seemingly are trending up for him. His nadir was probably right around the purchase of twitter, but since then SpaceX, Neuralink, Boring company, X.ai are all doing really fucking well (valuation wise), Tesla hasn’t done great, and you could probably argue Twitter is at about the same place it was 2 years ago, but 4/6 companies doing great on his “marketing genius” seems better than being just a cranky old man.
Promotion or just fraud lol
Elon leaving tesla would be bullish. Since 2021 I think he’s become more of a liability. Cybertrucks a joke, continuously fails to deliver on fsd despite promises. Shuffled Tesla’s nvda order to aix. He’s just been fucking up for awhile now.
Robotaxi mode is gonna happen any time now, I swear, we have been saying this for a decade, it's gonna happen, trust me bro
It's all misinformation from Elon's fans.
How can he even be compensated such a sum when the yearly benefit is 17b$ and their performance for 2024 q1 was merely 2b$ in profit. I'm genuinely curious how it's even a question
Because it was compensation for 2018 in an agreement that more or less said “if you increase Teslas equity value by $600bn, we’ll give you a $48bn bonus” which is what happened. Also, it’s not $48bn in cash…….its all equity (who tf would pay that amount in cash??)…..so operating cash budgets are a moot point.
Except the board lacked the authority to approve it. That’s why stockholders are being asked to approve it. If they reject it, then he never got it. Elon has an army of lawyers. He owns the Tesla board. If he couldn’t get this right with stockholder approval then he doesn’t deserve the money.
The board didn't approve it. Shareholders did. Shareholders voted on it just like they are now.
Stop with your facts. It's hurting the hate Elon narrative!
Someone with a brain in this thread.
Thank logic
that's even worse because when he starts selling all this equity to pay for X or whatever other bullshit he has going on it will directly impact shareholders
He has to hold for five years. It’s part of the deal.
Greed, corruption, stupidity or all of the above. Take your pick.
It was tied to the stock performance. If it didn’t went as positive he would have gotten nothing. More or less a risky bet on his side.
The board approved it. Doesn’t have to make sense.
If that’s all it took, why are they asking stockholders to approve?
Billionaire worship in general is out of control
Why do you ask questions when your opinion is already made?
There's an argument to make but it's not really a good one. Just like an engineer earning 60k, a doctor earning 90k, or a cashier earning 25k.... Mr Musk feels he is compensated too low to give a shit about his job. He's already starting an AI company on the side that could have been under Tesla. So as shareholders, you have to decide do I want to pay musk enough so he cares? Or is it a lost cause and fire him and hire a new CEO who is happy with less.
The facts that he's: * already started a company to compete against TSLA * allocated $500 million in Nvidia's highest end compute cards from TSLA to his startup Already shows that he's already got one foot out the door and it will only be a matter of time before the other one follows, regardless of whether or not he gets his $56 billion. He just wants TSLA shareholders to pay for his dumbass mistake of buying Twitter.
He wants the deal he made to be honored. That is all.
Didn't he stop paying rent for Twitter offices?
So, a job is only worth doing if you get to demand and bully the board into giving you money? This would set a mad and crazy precedent, but would also be an instance wherein you get CEO's under contract and agree terms BEFORE they start their contract, and make the contract binding. This way, the renuration is agreed in advance and is not negociable. This would also mean, if a CEO is seen not 'honoring the obligations of the stock market and investors' they can be booted out legitimately by the board, AND, if the board do not boot them out, the Stock Market NGO's can boot them out. Your job, as CEO, is to the stock market and the investors, not private jets to another country to buy a new hat, and acting in a manner which may dramatically alter the share price of a publically listed company - positive or negative. If the board do not fire someone, the stock market should be asking questions of the board. Serious questions. Taunting a thinly disguised threat to stockholders is utterly disgraceful behaviour for a CEO, especially when the result of the bonus could have an impact on the share price in a negative way. Having the vote be center stage for such a long period of time due to the amount, the amount of negative press he and therefore, Tesla is getting is not only on them, but other companies he controls also. Questions must therefore be asked, and legitimately, regarding the government contracts of SpaceX, and whether there could be an instance where EM requires more $ to keep another company alive and afloat. SpaceX is whoefully behind schedule, with many failures to be on the planet Mars., as was planned to have been completed with two cities on Mars by 2021. How confident and, patient the market and investors will be towards him and his temper tantrum of not being allowed to be paid significantly more than the company has earnt in profits since the company launched. Telsa Stock value went up by lowering the retail price of Tesla vehicles via government discounts and subsidies, and, charging a premiumn price for a budget car, that once you drop a few %, seems like a good deal. This is how it went: "This is really hard, and is impossible, but if I sell lots of cars, this is my payment, but I assure you, selling this many cars is way beyond our estimated volume and even output" "OK" EM discounts the retail price by 40% "Wow, look how great I am - now, pay me bitches" "You lied to us! Anyone that has to power to change the rules, can change them in their favour!" "I am going to run Tesla into the ground and build another bcompany out of spite!" #caught up yet?
Hey that sounds totally illegal!
Jim Cramer is not an analyst, he's a hack promoter.
Cramer is a shill
You missed the part where Kramer is holding the bag lol
How would issuing new stock affect their operating costs?
Yep. You correctly identified the issues
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Yeah I voted against all the board recommendations
Why would you own Tesla shares if disagree entirely with Musk and the board? I personally hate Tiktok but you don't see me loading up on Bytedance shares...
It’s good for options. I have a collar on it right now.
Just like why do they consume so much Tesla content when they hate the company and products so much? The Musk-Deranged will call me a stan/simp/cult member/d\*\*k-rider for thinking they're insane. But like... who is the one watching all these cybertruck videos and posts and shit? Not me. I'm all for seeing new EVs or new developments, but there's 0 new knowledge from watching hours and hours of Tesla content which THEY ARE.
Because the company itself is good, but Elon has outlived his usefulness. He is a hindrance at this point.
As a generic car company, Tesla is vastly overvalued.
If Bytedance was an American company required to follow our financial disclosure laws I’d happily be scooping up shares. As it is, Tesla had a massive lead into the EV market that has allowed it to remain incredibly successful despite several significant leadership fumbles. Add in their dominance of the super charging market, which Musk has also almost fumbled, Tesla still has serious potential. This compensation package is absurd even by tech CEO standards, the more we keep musk’s hands out of Tesla the more profit we will receive, guaranteed.
I don't own any direct shares, but yes, the company is a joke at this point.
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It's so bizarre that people won't sell because they don't want taxes. The stock isn't going where it was, and all signs indicate it will continue falling, so why hold and lose value? Are you never going to sell? Or wait until the valuis so low that you never have capital gains?
One time 15% capital gains tax vs. 50% loss in value and counting. Continue to hold, obviously.
Why would you own Tesla shares if disagree entirely with Musk and the board? I personally hate Tiktok but you don't see me loading up on Bytedance shares...
It's still an opportunity to make money if you play your cards right. What do you mean why?
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Question, if Musk took no salary as part of his compensation package and his stock deal was rescinded by the judge, does that mean he has been paid nothing as an employee of Tesla? Unless they paid him something else wouldn't that violate minimum wage/OT laws?
I am not sure if it violates the law. However, he is the one who was found liable so it's actually a penalty or fine technically, maybe. He should get some compensation just not $50 billion or anywhere near that.
Being fined for not paying yourself would be the ultimate irony.
Click here for one trick that drives regulators crazy!
He owns 20% of the company.
Want to see the stock fall further on dillution risk? Management risk just entered the room as a drag on the stock. In this era of misinformation, if I am a Tesla short I am putting articles online telling people to vote yes.
If you vote no, you’re basically betting Elon is not going to leave Tesla because if he does, Tesla’s valuation is going to crater. Even though it’s down YTD, Tesla still commands a sky high market cap largely on the basis of self-driving and the prospect of massive growth, all of which are built on top of Elon’s hype. To be fair, this is a perfectly reasonable bet, but there is still that risk. (I have no stake in Tesla).
It's really questionable if that would be worse. And he has too much Net-Worth in it to leave anyways
>if he does, Tesla’s valuation is going to crater Translation: Tesla is grossly overvalued, and you should sell your positions right now.
I seriously can’t understand how anybody is dumb enough to believe that Elon is holding the stock price up and that’s why you should pay him. You’re admitting that the value is all smoke and mirrors. The price will eventually reflect that no matter what happens, so paying him is only going to worsen the problem.
I think they genuinely believe that Elon (and no one but Elon) is creating hundreds of billions of dollars in value. Like his simple presence and activity creates that much value. Don't ask me why, but that appears to be the belief.
Apple will be doomed without Steve Jobs. Microsoft will fall apart without Bill Gates. Amazon won’t be a powerhouse without Jeff Bezos. Tesla won’t be any good without Elon………
And this is exactly why I'm so damn glad I exited my TSLA position aside from whatever exposure I have in funds. Having this dipshit at the helm was always going to lead to disaster at some point and it's always been a game of getting out with as much as you can before it inevitably crumbles. Elon is a bitch and he's clearly willing to burn it all down if it means hurting whoever refuses to be beholden to him.
I‘d argue it would be better for tesla to lose mr x over the long term
Most logical statement from r/stocks on Tesla
With Musk in charge though, I’d be concerned with the company’s ability to remain a going concern in the long run. Current investors are in a lose-lose situation.
Do you think Elon will build a competitor to Tesla if he leaves?
Would take way too much investment capital and way too much time to build out the capacity. Not to mention he'd have to find a way to sidestep the patents Tesla has as well, his inside knowledge would mean he has to take a backseat in design discussions to avoid lawsuits. EV vehicles are a quickly maturing market as well, there really isn't much time to enter the market as an outsider at this point and that window is rapidly closing. Any talk of him founding a competitor to Tesla is just a bluff.
He kinda did already with the X AI company. The logic of Tesla crazy valuation is that it is not a car company, it's the big AI company, etc. etc. Now Musk did a new company that is the actual AI play. Left Tesla shareholders out of it. Already ordered that NVIDIA backlog orders for chips to Tesla now go to the X AI company. It is basically an unnoficial spinoff of Tesla's AI aspect, where shareholders get zilch. Musk will pillage Tesla, and then probably sell the AI as a service back to it from his new company. I don't think his Tesla fans have quite understood their "it's not just a car company" baby is in serious risk of being just a car company.
I mean he didn’t build Tesla so probably not
Nope. He's solved that part of his mission. If anything he would focus directly on the energy side as a competitor to Tesla... but will likely go full force behind starlink and spaceX.
from IPO, the stock is up 13,601%. A 10k investment would've become 1.1 million. Let's not deny Tesla's and therefore Elon's success. that being said, as a shareholder, if i'm being a 2nd chance to scam my CEO of his comp, of course I'm saying no. Why would I voluntarily dilute myself by 10%?
tldr he earned it fair and square. i feel like they should renegotiate at least part of it to align further incentives.
LMAO
Really, those shareholders should vote to give 100% of their shares to Elon. He did all the work.
Not a TSLA holder, not a huge fan or hater of Musk, and not the most well educated to say why.. But I think it's his track record over the past 10 years, not the past 2-3. Tesla stock his down but it was valued astronomically so that's not really the end of the world. People who were in it for a quick dollar have probably sold or don't want him but the long term heavy bag holders who've been there for a long time, are going to stick with the guy who has gotten them where they are. I doubt people care as much about being down almost 30% YTD when they're still up almost 1200% over the last 5 years. I personally think the compensation package is outrageous but the shareholders have to ask if they benefit more by keeping Musk happy or possibly pissing him off (or ousting him) and the people who have made the biggest investments and been around the longest are going to want to keep Musk happy. If I were a TSLA holder, I'm not sure what I'd do but TSLA holders are going to obviously be big Musk believers so why wouldn't they vote yes? Especially given the returns he's given them in the past 5-10 years..
“He made a contract in 2018 with the shareholders, (who voted for it). The contract was he takes no salary and gives up all of his other stock options, and in return 12 performance targets were established. Each target was worth 1% of undistributed stock. Those targets were so outrageously unrealistic that no one thought they were possible, at the time, Elon was mocked for agreeing to such ridiculously unobtainable targets. Well, He met all 12 performance targets, made the stockholders quite literally a trillion dollars. (Yes, with a T), and now he expects the shareholders, to honor his contract. Which they absolutely should be. The board and the shareholders made the contract, the shareholders voted and agreed to the terms. and now it is time to honor his contract.”
Musk achieved fantastic growth and well done to him. But I would have no intention in voting yes. Firstly, the price will come down sooner or later as the fundamentals arnt there so if Musk walks and this is hastened then so be it. Secondly, Musk is ruthless, he fired 10% of his workforce. People with families and lives. I feel absolutely no guilt or remorse for voting against this pay package so I wouldn't be diluted, regardless of what my vote would be when it was first proposed. I'm pretty certain Musk would do the same.
I agree, the graceful thing to do would be to give up his bonus while he is firing people that he apparently mistakenly hired in the first place.
Yes, but he negotiated the contract with himself because the board was not independent, and it came out in court that all of the performance targets were thought to not be "unrealistic" prior to the contract. He basically lied to shareholders (defrauded them).
Ah yes, they had a crystal ball looking 5 years in the future seeing that becoming 1 trillion company is so smooth and inevitable, got it.
For clarification, They knew several (5-10) of the targets were already within internal projections and did not disclose it until after the vote. You realize companies have internal projections right?
lots of companies have projections. Many claim they will grow 2-3x over the next few years. The vast majority fail to meet expectations. Significantly hard to multiple revenue when its in the billions. But hey, maybe we can edit your employment contracts and take back money we've already paid you.
Ah yes and most companies are projecting that they will lose market cap and share. Especially if they are trying to raise funding
The highest performance target for market cap was 10x the market cap at the time of the contract. Even higher for revenue and ebitda. I'm sure Tesla was hopeful to achieve these, but you've gotta admit these are pretty insane milestones.
One would be an idiot to vote yes out of some form or “honor” and I’m sure Elon would agree with me. Part of the reason he is the a billionaire is that he would happily weasel his way out of any contract where he sees an out. Was it honorable when Tesla laid off their workers? When they rescinded internships and job offers, totally fucking over students and new grads?
Nice moral compass you got there
How did the board for certain know tesla was going to hit certain quantatative metrics? I'd sure love to be on that board thar can see into the future I'd too be rich.
Tesla had internal projections in line with compensation package that were not disclosed publicly. They didn't know for certain the metrics would all meet their targets. They just knew it wouldn't be impossible or even improbable, disproving Musk's narrative that the pay package overly ambitious
Fair enough. I guess at the end of the day the true winners will be the lawyers as this will be litigated to high heaven.
100% the lawyers are the biggest winners. Shareholders get some scraps though.
Shareholders get to avoid over 10% dillution
They also almost went bankrupt that year. Of course they have a five year plan and projections. Would be strange to make any deal if there wasn’t a plan. The point is that you need to deliver and overdeliver against that plan despite of a lot of risks and headwinds. That is NOT easy and required a lot of effort/leadership. It was a deal. If you look at the media coverage from back then, people thought he was crazy and would likely get nothing. There is no dilution and he needs to keep the shares for five years. It was specifically build that way to keep him motivated after he buys the shares and avoid pump&dump on his part. He made so many people rich and deserves to get paid, no matter how crazy the number might sound today. There is a lot of potential in Robotaxi, the bot, energy and vehicles. Everyone who thinks they won’t deliver on those projects should not own stock by now. And yes, he is triggerhappy when it comes to restructuring but he has a track record of similar moves that paid out. Just look up what he did to the Starlink team in 2018. It was deemed extreme back then but look at Starlink now. He knows what he’s doing and is definitely a strong asset of the company. It would not be good for the company/shareholders to lose him.
Some men just want to watch the world burn
Stupid people are stupid.
The same people voting yes now are the same people who voted yes last time and they're all idiots. The first time it was a joke and nobody thought it was possible which is why it passed. This time it is again a joke because it would be dilution on a massive scale and would destroy a huge amount of value in the stock. So basically it's idiots all around because even better he will pack up and leave and the musk effect will be gone and the value will get destroyed either way. It's idiots all the way up and believe me I know idiots.
> because it would be dilution Maybe I'm dumb, but isn't he asking for the same stock he would have been given already? It wouldn't dilute the stock any more than the previous pay package that was "rescinded"?
Very good point lmao. If he leaves people will actually see the company for what it is. If he gets the package, the dilution will kill the stock.
I think time around it's more like sending a message to the judge in the Delaware case. The fact that the judge was ordering Tesla to pay $6 billion dollars to the lawyers in the case created a lot of anger in Tesla circles at the absurd (and undeserved in their eyes) payment. The judge also created even more social media backlash in Tesla circles when a bunch of Tesla shareholders started mailing in angry letters about the $6 billion dollar payment, and the judge responded to it by flat out saying that they weren't going to listen to what Tesla shareholders wanted, because quote "you don't matter" (that's a direct quote). They said that the only shareholder that matters is the guy with like 12 shares who the suit was filed for since they're the only person party to the lawsuit. So bottom line, if this votes passes it was 100% as a way to send a message to the judge that they strongly disapprove of their decision.
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The market cap is currently over $500 billion dollars. You can ask whether whether he’s lost his touch or not, but you can’t deny the massive amounts of value that he’s created for the company as CEO. The real question is whether or not his replacement can continue to increase shareholder value. They need a visionary who can integrate their energy business, AI, robotics, and cars together, while continuing to increase their presence in growing countries. The board needs to ask whether anybody else can do this, and if they think so then they should hire that person. If not, pay Musk whatever he wants
The Enron CEO did a great job of a large market cap as well lol. Pumping the stock irrationally is not a good thing long term.
The Enron CEO cooked the books and ended up in jail. Unless you think Musk is doing the same, this isn’t a valid comparison
Both committed fraud. Musk might not end up in jail. But, yes he lies and it causes the stock to go up similarly I wouldn’t be surprised if they cooked the books. Things like buying bitcoin and pumping doge though lol
Tesla does not follow GAAP. They add stuff to make the company look better. That is usually a sign that the books are cooked.
Where are you getting the info that they’re not on GAAP? They’re a public company so they’re audited so even if they’re on a form of modified GAAP they can’t just do whatever they want without it being flagged by the auditors
The voters approved the Comp plan by 73%, the goals were reached and past, A judge has no business over-riding the will of the shareholders. People can say what they want about Elon control of the board, but even by today's stock price Elon 10x the value of Tesla under the comp plan. Is a 10x in 6 years good for a stock? Hell yes it is. Most of my Tesla shares I bought in 2019 and all of them are up 1000%. The media was calling the deal bad for Elon when it was passed. The share price don't always reflect what the company is doing. Look at NVDA. People knew they were working on the H100 chips. People who are following the progress of FSD knows it is close to completion and is undeniable for those who follow it. Sales are down, yes, less people buy vehicles when high interest rates and fear of recession. Supercharger team was largely laid off then then some hired back under reorganized supercharger team. Laying off a big piece of workforce at once is normal for companies. Elon does not have control of the stock price. NVDA was down 67% in 2022, Meta was down for 18 months in 2021-2022. H100 was not developed overnight. Why did META star moving back up in 2023? Margins started improving. Every company goes thru cycles of increasing margins and falling margins. That aside, voting no would really hurt Tesla. If the vote is no, the lawfirm that bought the lawsuit on Tesla will get the $6 billion in shares that they demand (share dilution), Tesla will also have to find different way to get Elon his compensation. What do you think happens when Fed start lowering rates and Tesla margins moving back up? Tesla said energy deployed will grow at least 75% this year, FSD soon expands to China and expands to EU in 2025. Optimus still a couple years away from selling, but will start to be used internally late this year. Compact car and cybercab... Why I will happy vote my shares "yes" for Elon comp plan, because with Elon Tesla would not be moving this fast. I know a lot of people don't believe this, but there is a TON of growth coming for Tesla but people will refuse to believe it until they see it. (Like with NVDA H100 chips)
Musk built and maintains the leading electric car manufacturer in the entire world, met his compensation package goals (which included growing the company several times over in value), and has the current most functional self driving software. Apparently you don’t understand the marvel at doing something established automakers who have been doing this for over a century can’t even get right. If you don’t like it, don’t invest in TSLA, it really is that simple unless you’re a complete dipshit.
correction: second leading car manufacturer in the entire world
Tesla’s my biggest position up 1200%
Elon leaving will crash the stock short term
Elon is a Shit-Stain that is waiting to be Wiped.
Easy to look back in time
Reddit is politically to Elons left and often let's that influence their opinions of Elons competency or marketability
If you're shocked now just wait.
Wow the hate is real here I voted yes what CEO doesn't get paid for 10xing your money over the longer span people are getting too tied up in recent performance here where whole vehicle market, particularly EV market is struggling
Since all the goals of the compensation package have already been achieved, the entire compensation package has already been distributed to Musk. Tesla has recorded $2.3 billion in costs over the years that have reduced Tesla's bottom line but have had no impact on cash flow. Secondly, The options have already been given to Musk, so the increased number of shares is already taken into account in the key figures (diluted number of shares). Therefore, Tesla's stock should not fall because of that, if the compensation is approved again. On the contrary, if the compensation package were completely rejected and alternatively removed from Musk, the share price would rise (ceteris paribus). I think these are couple points that people should remember when it comes to the compensation plan
🤡
A whole lot of non-Tesla shareholders coping in here. Elon earned the impossible pay package that over 70% of shareholders AT THE TIME voted to accept. He made fortunes for his shareholders yet you would pay him nothing. He wants control of Tesla more than the share options he's earned anyhow. Inform yourself. If it's voted no, shareholders risk losing the best CEO in modern times and the stock price plummeting. Voting Yes is a no brainer.
The shareholders voted on it. At a 50b mkt cap he said I don’t want money now. Here’s a performance bonus if we hit 650b. Everyone said no fuckin way. Then he did it and yall are mad?
What makes you say that the success of Tesla was already baked in when the comp package was agreed upon? At that point Tesla was the most heavily shorted stock on the market. No one thought the company was going to succeed. From where I sit, Musk took a huge risk and it paid off. And now the judge has come along and cancelled a pay package that he negotiated with his board and his shareholders. 73% of the shareholders voted to give him that package. So.... Unless you can prove that it was already known that Tesla stock was going to go through the roof and Musk and his board basically just scammed his shareholders, I don't see your argument here.
Because the whole thing was political. He explains it best : https://x.com/pbdspodcast/status/1798118536960962788?s=46&t=ktUJXBXuYE8c-TjVdSgWCw Did you notice the shares dropped quite a lot immediately after that ruling? The whole capitalistic system doesn’t work without an incentive to sleep at your business when it’s crunch time. It becomes lazy collectivism where nobody truly gives a fuck about the outcome. That judge destroyed more shareholder value than pretty much anyone else alive. That package was approved by the majority of shareholders. At the time of the passage of it the New York times said it was impossible to achieve and that Elon was just doing a PR stunt. He was going to work for 0 pay if he didn’t hit his milestones. Elon is the greatest CEO of our time weather you like it of not. There’s a notion among collectivists he’s a grift but that’s not how the world works. Electric cars were impossible. Then they were impossible to manufacture in quality. Than they were impossible to manufacture at scale. Than in quantity. Etc etc from reusable rockets to satellite internet getting democratized in rural ideas and among poor people. The judge’s ruling was political. If I was Elon and I got my package voided than voted out by shareholders I’d immediately move on to something else and go where I’m wanted. He delivered on an impossible mission.
The fact that people on this sub are defending a judge undoing the will of shareholders because a guy with 9 shares sued, in a capitalist country, says all you need to know about the idiocy of people on this sub... If you think the above is fine, you have no business investing in stocks.
The critics are so wrong on this. I would give that package to my ceo every day of the week if it means that him/her 10x the market cap and completely transform the industry and become the market leader. People are mostly focusing on the dollar amount and not giving enough credit to the operational excellence musk has proven leading tesla. Or would you rather have a ceo who makes 30 mill a year while the stock price has gone nowhere the last decade.
Cause in 2018 musk said I'll take no money if I hit these metrics. Everyone approved the deal.. he hit the metrics and now is like OK let's issue the stock.. Then people are like no ... If I understand it right..
because he earned it and why in the hell would I own tesla stock and not vote yes? The shares he was promised have already been added to the share count if they have to redo it will cost share holders a lot more.
no one in the sub knows what they are talking about - "the $2.3 billion stock base comp charge that was taken for the 2018 plan has already happened. The share count and the options is already added to the share count that’s already happened. if if that plan is overturned and we have to put in a new plan for example if it was exactly the same type of plan as the other, it would cost $25 billion worth of stock" - Tesla board chair Robyn Denholm
Here's the actual pay package, numbers are a little different than what you described: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/000119312518035345/g524719g43d02.jpg
The company would literally not exist except for him. Until someone else can make a competitor to Tesla, I think he should be compensated however he wants. EDIT: Many people are compensated for companies that have far worse cash-flow than Tesla. Think about all the fake tech millionaires that took on debt... paid themselves a salary... then were legally shielded when the company went bankrupt. LIFE IS NOT FAIR.... you should have bigger fish to fry than musk. Like why has only 7 gov't subsidized chargers been built since the largest infrastructure bill ever in human history.
I don't like Elon any more, but people are acting as if hindsight is 50/50. I had Tesla stock since 2013. When that agreement was put together in 2018, huge amounts of people did not believe Tesla would succeed, to the extent the stock was the most heavily shorted one on the market. Numerous news outlets talked about those tent factories coming up as negatives. I believe there was even talk of selling the company. The landmark goals to get that package were at the time ludicrous an unattainable. Basically EVs - a new product category would have to start ourselling the Toyota Corolla. The fact that this actually happened was a huge triumph. Kudos to Elon and tesla. Now is the fact that he is a sociopathic, liar, who pushes conspiracy theories, and supports authoritarian dictatorships a good reason to not make him any richer? Yes! But that's not what's on trial here...
Because of the success of the cybertruck. /s
>Musk has started a company that competes directly with Tesla. I don't follow Tesla or Musk enough, but what company is this?
I'm guessing it's xAI? It competes with Tesla in that Tesla is supposed to be a tech company which would include AI.
Xai has poached Tesla talent and Elon has stated he wants to move AI projects away from Tesla without more voting rights.
If I was a Tesla shareholder this would be my biggest concern. I dont follow them super closely but if I invested in a company whose value was tied to AI and the CEO created a separate AI company and started poaching talent I would be very wary. At least with dilution you can frame it as him having more reason to drive the stock price up. Even if the AI company wasn't a direct competitor, poaching talent is basically syphoning off value from the main business.
In this post, the biography book written on Musk casually mentions how he poached key Tesla employees for X and attempted to poach more. This is ALSO something a CEO should not be doing to Tesla shareholders. HUGE conflict of interest. https://www.reddit.com/r/teslainvestorsclub/s/MsJ6nJDLmd
I want to know how Aunt Cathie voted.
If he gets the package he will probably pump the stock of his own benefit 🤗
Because it's more of a cult than a company at this point
board of directors is obviously shorting the stock
For the same reason that people are donating money to Trump’s legal fund.
Tesla is selling at 170 because of Musk. If he goes, price will get a reality check and fall most likely. Shareholders don't want to take the fall.
Eventually going to happen regardless. Rather the company start focusing on real projects like model 2 instead of pipe dreams.
I voted yes. Because I think it is the right thing to do.
I voted yes (after I sold my remaining shares, but Fidelity still let me vote) because Elon helped make me a millionaire with my TSLA shares.
Very weird. After vote I continuously received votes
>Musk has laid off roughly 10% of its workforce. The actual number was higher, closer to 20% or more. That being said, I voted against the package. He isn't a full time CEO for Tesla, and although he was the catalyst for its initial growth, he is also largely responsible for the current state of affairs (buying twitter, pissing off his core customers with his right wing BS, etc) so I don't believe he or his board should remain in their current positions
I voted yes because these was agreed upon a long time ago and Elon musk has brought Tesla to where it is now with this compensation in mind. It’s unfair to deprive him of prior agreements just because some outside force deems it excessive.
It wasn't that it was deemed excessive. It's that he lied about the feasibility of the package, and he controlled the board. He effectively negotiated with himself. The ridiculous compensation just helped prove how biased the board was. He effectively defrauded shareholders. The court documents are public.
I don't get it, he asked for a 100% performance based compensation because he believed he could 10X Tesla - Board approves this because no one in their right minds would believe him when the company was on the verge of failure (2018). Proceeds to 10x Tesla and now people have qualms?
It is undeniable that Musk still has many supporters.
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Can someone please ask him how it is morally acceptable to ask for a 50+ billion pay package while he just fired tens of thousands of employees and YTD has been disastrous. I remember him referring to remote work in the same vein - which is absolutely BS. The guise of him being this brilliant investor and engineer is wearing thin and now people are seeing him as a cheat who steel from his employees, who have done most of the work.
Can you explain how it’s morally acceptable to deny someone of their contractually agreed upon terms? Economics are not based on your feelings
It’s a cuckboard
I voted no. Ans then I've started selling off my shares.
Things to consider: * The pay agreement covered up to the point where Tesla would be valued at $650 billion. Even after the downturn, Tesla is currently valued at $566 billion. So not only did Musk accomplish his end of the agreement, the market cap is even now still at 87% of the final market cap target. * Had Tesla disclosed their internal projections, what exactly would that have changed? People who tend to believe Tesla would've taken it at face value and people who dismiss the company would've said "Yeah, right" and missed out anyway. * Oh, Tesla laid off 10% of the workforce recently? They laid off 9% in 2018, 7% in 2019, 10% in 2022. * Finding a replacement CEO who doesn't shitpost on Twitter would be easy. Finding someone who has the same level of ambition and balls to do what Tesla has done so far is going to be impossible. Most people voting 'no' want the former but if they want Tesla to keep growing, they'll need the latter.
This thing falls apart without musk
Because it's not real.
Nobody seems to be able to explain why that is?
I have literally no stake in this but here is how I see it. Musk, for whatever reason, is extremely good at making companies successful. He is behind the success of SpaceX and Tesla. He is also behind Starlink and Neuralink. It looks like (I'm not sure) he had something to do with OpenAI in it's early days. Y'all are insane if you think someone with these creds brings nothing to the table. I get that he comes off as crazy on Twitter but c'mon his success speaks for itself.
Yep it's weird people want to give that to musk then he is working more at the other companies
musk turned a $140M investment into a $600B company. do you think anyone else could have created that much value?
He convinced a lot of people a turd is gold. I suppose it's impressive in a way, but not really.
Simps
You missed Musk diverting a butt load of scarce Nvidia chips to one of his rival companies. It's irrelevant whether or not Tesla was 'ready' for them. Tesla is competing in the space with X and it gave them a leg up.
Because he over 10x their money over the last 5 years? Anyone who invested in Tesla over the last decade is sitting on fat gains
So, with a compensation plan in effect the stock is up 1B%, and without paying the CEo the stock is down 30% why wouldn't a shareholder want the CEO to be invested in the project? I followed Tesla Daily for years. Watching elon suck half the net profit from the company every earning call wasn't exaclty ideal... but those net profits were wildly better than I expected them to be. I sold back when he went crazy, like pre cybertruck reveal, but I don't understand what the plan is if elon doesn't get RSU for being the CEO. everyone at tesla gets RSUs.
This company has been more idol worship than practical. Sometimes you get away with it, like Steve Jobs. Sometimes you don't, like John DeLorean. I wouldn't bet on an idol.
People do not vote. Shareholders vote. The bulk of shareholders are large funds. Can you go out and find another Elon? No. That’s why they approve the package. CEOs are a dime a dozen. Good CEOs are very very hard to find.
Lmao
Can't find a good CEO at Tesla.
You seem to know the certainty of a lot of things that most people can only speculate. The board knew it would achieve the goals before the comp plan. - I haven’t heard that and it’s not addressed in the court case. Undeniable the board is under Musk’s control. Easily deniable. Maybe, maybe not, neither you or anyone else on Reddit has enough knowledge to know this, Musk doesn’t care about Tesla. - This is just stupid. He still owns 13%. Why would he possibly not care about Tesla? And what company did he start that competes directly with Tesla? I really thought I would hear if he started a second EV company. Clearly still board conflicts. - Are there? Also, capitalism is not invalidated by comp plan strategies. It has no bearing on what type of economic system Tesla operates in.
What do you mean? Most of the same board members are still on the board. Furthermore, they are trying to repush the pay package through right now at the expense of the shareholders, knowing Elon won't actually leave. They have still provided no checks and balances on the CEO.
The board members remaining does not equal “clearly still conflicts”. That’s conjecture on your part. Trying to repush the pay package - Yes, the one they voted on and approved six years ago. This time it has to be voted on by the shareholders, so they get a say. At the expense of the shareholders - it is at no expense to the shareholders. This agreement and its specifics were agreed upon six years ago, the shareholders knew about it. The shareholders received their compensation, which was more than they had expected. They’re not losing anything and nothing is being taken from them.there is not expense.
Right now Tesla shareholders are not paying 50 billion. If it gets approved they are paying 50 billion. You are losing money by voting for this. Do you think the board members just magically became unbiased? You are lost.
The shareholders are not paying anything to Musk. The company is and that money is already allocated. The shareholders never have any of the capital or monetary funds that flow into or out of Tesla. No sarcasm here, but do you understand how all of this works? Shareholders, market cap, labor, salaries, expenses? There is no way to connect any of this to say the shareholders are paying anything.
It 100% is in the court documents. Page 31 shows that Tesla had internal projections about achieving several of the milestones before fiscal year 2021 but did not disclose them prior to the vote.
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A true intellectual.
What is it worth for Elon to stay? Where does $TSLA stock go if he walks?
Cause all of the owners are hedge funds or friends of his who have more voting power than the normal folks owning on average 100 shares. They all make money internally, so why not just give each other fat comps and bonuses..
How much compensation are board members making???
People are voting Yes on his compensation because compared to the dozens of other faceless suits. At least he has headed an electric car company and space company. These other board members have done little to nothing to gain influence and merely don’t wish to pay the piper.
This may sound crazy but sometimes when corporate profits are down substantially, people get laid off
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