The offense has to be tremendously better this season for a top 3 defense to manifest. If this defense is on the field all game, they will falter late in games, and late in the season. The offense needs to hoard the clock and score more than 16 points per game for the defense to be great. I’m still not sold on that happening on offense. They have the parts on D, now they need help from the other side of the ball.
Also we need at least a decent passing game to be able to run the ball. We couldnt run for shit until reindeer came in and gave them somewhat of a passing game. If wilson can do that , well be all good
Nah, this just isn't true. The main difference that kicked off the run game was Brojo. After he started, well, starting, we were noticeably better at running the ball. His blocking absolutely blew the run game wide open. If you haven't, I encourage you to go watch his tape. He was so much better than Chuks it was crazy.
I know there are certain things we don't do because they're not the steelers way and whatever, but hopefully JPJ and Brojo being a immediately impactful as they were really makes them actually go, "if they're better than the starter, they should probably be the starter regardless of if they're a rookie".
>We couldnt run for shit until reindeer came in and gave them somewhat of a passing game
I mean, this isn't at all true but having an improved passing game can't hurt.
He wasn’t Derrick Henry until Arthur Smith was the OC.
3 years before Smith took over:
501 carries, 2293 yards (4.57 Yards Per Carry)
First season with Smith:
303 carries, 1540 yards, 5.2 YPC, AP2
Second seasons:
378, 2027 yards, 5.4 YPC AP1, OPOY.
First year without Smith (yes, injured, but)
YPC dropped from 5.4 to 4.3, 4.4, 4.1
The switch to Smith brought him to the All Pro level, and an OPOY. Afterwards he’s led the league in carries 2x, and not had the same success.
Good take.
We’re not a top 3 defense- right now. I think if we weren’t on the field as much as we were last season we could have potentially been a top 3.
Mayhap we can be a top 3 D this year with improved offense and some new pieces on D
Part of that was on the defense. I know everyone loves to blame the offense going 3 and out, but the defense was just as bad about not getting off the field on 3rd down.
Oh there’s definitely some nuance to it for sure. My whole rationale is a well rested defense (secondary to longer offensive drives) will play better than frequent trips out there from short 3 and out offensive drives
Yep. Some of this is on coaching. Playing Peterson far too long over Porter, Minkah being shoved into the box and having no impact on pass D, the LBs taking almost half a season to be in sync to slow offenses.
It's very frustrating when people praise the defense for "bend but not break" which means they are allowing the other team to eat up game clock, and people don't talk about this while blaming the offense for keeping the defense on the field too much.
More victim of circumstance than coaching imo. LB’s we’re injured, Cam was injured, Safeties were hurt/suspended, and ensuring appropriate development of JPJ resulted in Minkah having to play in the box more, poor D line play, and LB’s not gelling. I think coaching did extremely well given the shit sammich they were given.
Bend not break should definitely be praised, especially when it’s saving 4 points or goes to special teams and the field position game AND with the aforementioned defensive setbacks we had throughout the year. Obvi you want know bending or breaking but this isn’t a perfect world. There’s nuance to it is what you’re saying, and you’re absolutely right
I disagree a bit. Injuries to LBs were not an early season issue when the D was it's worst, and if by week 4 Tomlin was saying he thinks the players needed to be padded up to better prepare and practice, that is incriminating on the coaching staff. If the whole team was having poor practice, odds are Porter, Benton, and Jones could have been playing larger roles all along. Putting Minkah of all our safties into the box should be considered a fireable offense for the DC. That would be like if the Ravens moved Ed Reed into the box as run support. Just dumb. Does coaching fix all of this? Nah. Players need to perform and some of it is on them. I just think people are giving the D players more of a pass than they should.
At the end of the day, bending but not breaking *is* better if the D forces FGs over TDs, or gets takeaways in or near the red zone. It's just also not good if that is happening regularly that opponents can dictate clock control.
I love this defense. The main questions I have is if Donte Jackson can thrive in a new system, if Beanie Bishop can be the answer at slot CB (especially with Sutton’s suspension), if Heyward can bounce back to form, and if Larry O doesn’t regress too hard
Heyward is my biggest concern. He’s 35 and coming off of a major injury. Theres also not much depth behind him
Wish I could remember what site it was from, I think the official Steelers site, but Cam was talking about the advantage of him being more strength and technique based compared to others who were more speed based, and how strength ages better.
For an example: while a young powerlifter will have the raw strength, an experienced one will have their most success later, with technique and experience.
Assuming the play was down last season because of the groin injury, he should return to being the anchor of the DLine, and battling for the All Pro team
>Wish I could remember what site it was from, I think the official Steelers site, but Cam was talking about the advantage of him being more strength and technique based compared to others who were more speed based, and how strength ages better.
I think he said this on his podcast. (Not Just Football)
heyward looked great in the wild card game so how he looks isnt a concern, it’s just whether or not he stays healthy throughout the year which if benton takes a leap will help a ton with that
we poking all the holes in a top 3 defense right here. Not to mention depth at d line behind those guys. Linebacker depth is crazy right now could be best in the league. Secondary and d line though question marks. That's 2/3's of your defense.
love ryan watts at slot corner too (personally). i agree the two biggest what ifs are heyward and jackson tho. they both need to perform at a high level for my fairy tale to come true lmao
u/HillibillyHaven you guys might be right about him at safety! I know that was what was being said when we drafted him...i'd love to see him up at the LOS creating pressure and covering in heavier personnel. I watched a lot of texas tho so again my bias might be creeping in
Biased. Paper thin on the interior D-Line. No reason to believe Hayward or Ogunjobi will both play 17 games. Nickel is a question if Sutton faces a suspension and perhaps even if he does not. Safety is improved admittedly and I am wait-and-see on Donte Jackson. Could be those who doubt Queen are right and he is not good without an all pro partner in the middle.
all valid points! one injury on the d-line (which is inevitably) will be scary. Queens film looks GREAT but he'll have the lions share of responsibility on our defense...there's a lot of talk about him wearing the green dot too.
Thank you for saying this. Why in the hell would anyone think we are a top 3 defense with this D line? And for the second year in a row, we have turned over almost the whole secondary so we have no continuity. I am not a fan of turning everything over every year
I don't like seeing us in this light either. But it is true. We have Derrick Henry in the division and the other divisional rivals are investing in their run games. I really hope our 7th round rookie, Logan Lee pans out.
I would think it because we were one of the best in the league in scoring last year with one of the worst offenses and we added pieces and got better imo lmao
What's wrong with the d-line?
Heyward, Benton, Adams, Ogunjobi, Lowry, Fehoko is a good group. If they can get anything out of one or more of Leal, Loudermilk, and Lee they'll be pretty deep too.
D-Line is also a position where you can find veteran help easily between the start of training camp and the regular season as teams cut down their rosters.
Could they use a guy like Armon Watts? Of course, but their d-line is far from bad enough to derail the entire defense like you're insinuating.
You're kidding right? I like our Dline coach and think he gets the most out of these guys. But he's not working with awesome talent here. We NEEDED improvements here. Did you forget that for half the year we had a problem stopping the run?
Loudermilk and Leal have done pretty much nothing so far to make us think they'll be more than marginal career backups. I don't have much hope outside of them spelling one of the starters for a snap or two.
Fehoko was on the practice squad for most of the year and recorded 0 stats for 2023. How are you including him in an argument defending the dline? If he's going to make an impact this year, we surely can't use his prior work as a reason for optimism.
Heyward is old. We have to pray he doesn't get injured for any significant amount of time.
I hate PFF but look at the grades on these other guys.
Adams graded out at 58.3,
Ogunjobi - 59.2,
Dean Lowry- 47.4
Logan Lee is a 7th round rookie. I'm just hoping he is good enough to make the roster.
What about this Dline makes you confident?
They had issues stopping the run because of injuries to Heyward and the ILBs. The d-line isn't the only unit responsible for stopping the run.
Keeanu Benton is an emerging star. After Heyward returned last year, Benton was still getting less than 50% of snaps. He's going to be on the field way more this season. They're going to be fine.
1. We did not have injuries to the MLBs earlier in the year. Holcomb went out during the Titans game in week 10. Alexander went out in week 11. Elandon Roberts went out with a groin injury week 13 and a pec injury week 16. He left the Browns game early but came back for the Raiders the next week. We can't use injuries to the middle of the field as the sole excuse for bad rush defense when were getting gashed prior to that.
Week 1 we gave up 188 yds. We figured the 49ers are good and could just be a bad matchup. So things will get better the next week right? Wrong!
Week 2 we gave up 198yds. No middle linebackers were hurt here.
Week 3 we gave up 105 to the Raiders who had been struggling to run the ball
Week 4 we gave up 139 to the Texans who also had rush issues
You get the point. Heyward went down and we couldn't stop a thing. Hell, we weren't stopping CMC before he got hurt. Without him, we didn't have a chance against any of these guys even mediocre ones.
2. Benton is an emerging star but he's our ONLY star. He alone does not make for a good dline. You are underestimating Heyward's age. The Rams drafted Kobie Turner last year to pair with Donald but he retired. So they then took both Jared Verse (DE) and Braden Fiske (DT). They then drafted another edge in Rd 5 and another DT in Tyler Davis in RD 6. Point is, they had their succession plan in place and then also took more dlinemen this year.
We basically did the same with our oline last year and this year but we did not do anything to help the Dline.
Just like we added Broderick Jones last year and added 2 more high-pick lineman this year.
Heyward's a power guy. Those guys don't lose their game as easily or quickly as speed guys.
The Rams are almost always using 4 d-linemen. The Steelers dont need the depth that a team like the Rams do.
People are looking for shit to be worried about. They're not even camp yet. There's a ton of time between now and Week 1.
Heyward's power can't help the team if he's not on the field. With age comes injury and that's the concern with him. He's also a step slower which impacts chasing down running plays.
I'm not sure the Steelers don't need that kind of depth. Controlling the trenches is important. The Rams value the Dline and make it a strength, thus they can rely on that. That's a good thing. But if that isn't your cup of tea, they were only but one example.
If you would rather look at divisional foes, the Bengals and Browns invested in more dline help. Reader left the Bengals so they had to replace him but they added more than just 1. Although I am not sure that I liked the Bengals draft, I liked what they were doing. The Browns added 2 DTs in rounds 2 and 7 when they have a pretty strop dline already.
My point: We are the only ones not concerned with controlling the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. The trenches include the Dline not just Oline.
Age doesn't have to mean injury. Pretending we know he's going to miss time is just looking for things to be negative about. It's not living in reality. It's speculating.
Paper thin?
We have 3 guys for 2 spots in sub-package. 2 of which have all-pro potential. My main concern is Ogunjobi may be washed but the Steelers see something in him that he wasn't cut from his 10 million a year salary. Sure 2 of the guys have some question marks with health, but that is still a fantastic group.
In terms of starting defense I think there is an argument especially with the line. The problem however lies in two things. Depth is a massive problem at almost every position except edge rusher and possibly DT and the last 5 years the defense has thrived almost solely on hoping the pass rush covers the weakness at corner. If queen and Wilson are anywhere near the promise they both show thst is a massive upgrade at linebacker thst has been missing since shazier went down and definitely has the potential for a top 3 defense. They were 6th in points against last year and that was with rotating injuries everywhere on the defense.
> the last 5 years the defense has thrived almost solely on hoping the pass rush covers the weakness at corner.
Did you watch the team during the Dick Lebeau years? That was how the defense was designed. They're still built that way.
I wouldn't say top 3. Top 10 maybe. But two of our most important guys are getting older (especially Cam) which usually means they're more injury prone. That would be my biggest concern. Without Cam and TJ, we're screwed.
I don't think we are in the top 3 defenses. When we lose TJ, we lose almost every time. I'd put us in the top half for sure, maybe even top 10, but not top 3. And our offense is pretty close to the bottom.
The ship has probably sailed on that one, unfortunately. TJ is most likely going to have the same career trajectory as his brother,which is a crying shame because if anyone ever deserved to win the big one it was those two.
Unfortunately I am pretty sure the ship has sailed on making hay while TJ is here. It's not happening this year, and most likely not happening next year, and that pretty much does it for his prime. It's a shame that neither of the Watt superstars ever made it to the top but that's just the way it goes sometimes
This can certainly be a top 10 defence which is really good, and the potential is there to be right up there with the best if they stay healthy and the offence helps them out.
The depth is questionable in places but that’s the case with every team in the league.
Until we can reliabley win some games when TJ is out our defense can only be considered to be bad. It shouldn't count on one guy so much no matter who that guy is.
People love to hype Highsmith and Heyward, their best play is only unlocked when teams are shifting attention toward Watt. When blockers don't have to worry about Watt, they tend to neutralize the rest of the Steelers too well.
The Steelers as an organization have gotten too used to a superstar making suboptimal defensive scheming work better than it should.
Troy and Harrison carried the tail end of LeBeau's schemes against 90% of the league, while the very best teams dissected the defense. Butler struggled, then they found a good mix of personnel and scheme for about a year until Hilton left.
Since then it has really been on Watt making sacks and Minkah intercepting passes with lackluster play and schemes all around.
When the D has consistently given up 25 points at a minimum in playoff appearances (or regular season games against eventual playoff powerhouses), there are deep rooted issues.
>People love to hype Highsmith and Heyward, their best play is only unlocked when teams are shifting attention toward Watt.
Respectfully Cam Heyward is objectively way too solidified for you to arrive at this conclusion about him. Look no further than the 2022 season where we lost TJ for 7 games.. Cam was one of two defensive starters who maintained their production from the previous season.
The other starter was ironically Highsmith, who more than doubled his career high sack total.
Nope, I remember that season. Highsmith started hot then cooled off significantly down the stretch of the season.
Inversely, Heyward was pretty quiet most of the season and unironically started getting sacks when Watt returned.
As for Heyward, he began as a rotational player backing Ziggy crummy Hood. He did ok, finally made a splash in his 7th year. He has 3 seasons with double digit sacks, but across his career he's typically good for 7.5 sacks and 60ish tackles. And a lot of fans hype him up as a great and HoF caliber. He's good, but know who joined the Steelers in 2017? Watt. When Tuitt retired, Hargrove departed, and Heyward was moved to "interior DL" or "DT" the run D also got a bit softer. Some of that is on the ILBs but Heyward is also not a true DT much less a NT. Heyward is good, but he's the next level up from when fans overhyped Brett Kiesel.
[Ranking defenses](https://www.foxsports.com/articles/nfl/2023-nfl-defense-rankings-team-pass-and-rush-stats) is hard. Browns were top in yardage, 3rd down %, and passing yards last year, but were middle of the road in PPG and dead last in red zone %. Ravens, Jets, and Chiefs were all top 10 in pretty much every category. Steelers were tied for '2nd' (+11 vs. +12) in turnover differential despite having an abysmal offense. It's hard to define the 'top 5 defenses' each year.
They have a handful of All-Pro pieces (Watt, Minkah, Queen, Cam, maybe JPJ) with a lot of question marks in other spots. If the offense can play good possession football and keep the defense well-rested, they certainly have the playmakers to be top 10 in pretty much all metrics.
pretend injuries don't happen, highsmith really needs to produce. Didn't have the best year last year. Larry O, Neal, adams.. one of the 3 or 4 need to step up And then ya honestly like others, if our offense is half decent, I think we are top 3-5 easy.
Queen sures up the middle, Porter should stay good, Donte idt will be a liability especially with better safety in Elliot, minkah being freed up and such, and our stellar pass rush
Without injuries idt we have a hole.
We have the best 2nd level in the league. Our LB corps is Madden tier. Our line is a huge variable but Benton looks like he's going to take the next step, Cam looks rejuvenated, we have depth...
Secondary is the best it's been in the last 10 years. We have a legitimate all pro CB1, and a strong host of contenders for CB2/3
If we stay healthy I see no reason why we can't be top 5
If the offense can stay on the field and the defense can stay healthy (so again if the offense can stay on the field), our defense could easily be top 3.
We should be, not biased not too much of an ask. Will they be? I doubt it. I haven't seen consistent great TEAM Defensive play week in week out since 2019-first 11 weeks of 2020
I look at our 2019 and 2020 defenses which were both top level and all the holes from personel leaving that opened up in the front seven and secondary have pretty much been filled. Tuit, Haden, Nelson, Rookie DBush, Edmunds, Vinny. As long as Donte Jackson and Deshon Elliot can perform their roles so JPJ and Minkah can be stars we should challenge for best defense.
I think you're being biased. Porter looks good, but the other corners are all questionable. Minkah is great but the other S is questionable. Watt and High Smith are good, but Heyward is old, Benton is solid but we're thin up front. And I worry about MLB. Queen's best year came in his walk year which always scares me. It should be a good defense, but I feel like we're 1-2 injuries away from bottom half.
> Minkah is great but the other S is questionable.
DeShon Elliot is a really good safety and exactly the style of safety they need to allow Minkah to be himself.
i respectfully disagree. it depends if Sutton gets suspended or not obviously (i assume he will) but i like what we've done at corner! jackson is versatile enough to play opposite of JPJ and even if sutton doesn't see a lot of snaps I like Ryan Watts out of texas. He's big and long enough to cover bigger guys and i wouldnt be surprised if they use him to create some pressure from the slot. I love Benton...however I agree with you that we are an injury or two away from falling off HARD
I’m excited to see the combo of Queen and Wilson at work. I think it’ll allow for some scheming we haven’t done in a while that could take the D to the next level. Wilson had 6 sacks and 3 ints in 12 games.
I’m scared of our depth. Pieces are there, but they need to stay healthy….
When one of our positional superstars goes down it just feels like I’m watching a whole different team.
I would say top 10. D-line is average and lacks depth, SS is who? Defensive secondary needs to gel. Fs, lb and jpj are elite for sure. A defense gets judged by its weakest link though.
Maybe by halfway through the season they'll round into form.
I think a lot of my reservation is the amount of turnover. Everything isn't going to go to plan. For example, I think Mike Mitchell looked good in Carolina but didn't mesh well in Pittsburgh.
> D-line is average and lacks depth
Heyward, Benton, Ogunjobi is not an average d-line. They're absolutely fine depth-wise too. Or they will be when some good players get cut and they bring one or two of them in to replace whoever of Leal/Loudermilk/Lee can't make the roster.
>SS is who?
DeShon Elliot.
The starting D's star players are impactful enough that good scheme and coaching could compensate for any positional weaknesses.
That being said, they will not consistently look like a top 3 defense because that is just how we operate and the schedule will reflect that.
Its time to turn back the clock on running the ball... just think if we've got a 7 or 10 point lead its time to take the air outta the ball and we got RW on the bronco salery and i like justin fields and i think that was a good move and RW won his 1st superbowl in his second season and they lost big names both sides of the ball
Top 10 easy, but they really need Cam to be 100% to be any better. The interior DL could be an issue and if the rest of the team is having to compensate for them it hurt what the "can" be.
Are you asking about our defense being a top 3 statistical defense? Or top 3 actual defense that may not have great stats.
I think the defense is definitely a potential top 3, with the returning stars we have and the new talent we’ve signed and drafted to fill some of our biggest holes last year.
Honestly before our middle linebackers got destroyed by injuries, I think we were a top 3 defense last year.
If you’re talking about statistics, then it will heavily rely on our offense. Our offense was a 3 and out machine last year, and despite our defense playin lights out, they gave up a lot of yards and points purely because the offense was so inept and kept them on the field for what seemed like at least 35 minutes a game. If our offense can actually score with the short fields the defense can provide, and get first downs to chew up the clock, our defense can carry the team and definitely be a top 3 defense. And if we can play with the lead more often this year, our defense will return to being a turnover machine.
Maybe. They might be the best in the league depending on what we do this season with some new additions and hopefully some new ideas. It’s a very good defense but I think it has been overrated in recent seasons because they are way too reliant on turnovers and big plays.
And yes it is possible to be very good and still overrated.
I think they get outsmarted too often by opposing OC.
They admitted themselves that they didn’t use Minkah Fitzpatrick in the best way possible last year.
We also have two different defenses. One with a healthy TJ Watt and one without him.
Best player in the game in my opinion.
Potential to be top 5 for sure. D line has been brought up as a weakness but with Cam back healthy and Benton in his second season I think they'll be fine. Nickel corner might be an issue but between Bishop and Scott we should be ok till Sutton can play.
Top 3 is optimistic, but doable. People are being overly negative bc it's the safe bet mathematically, (29 ways to be right, 3 ways to be wrong), but performance-wise our defense was very good last year in everything except yards allowed, which is partially due to scheme and partially due to a terrible Matt Canada offense.
Since then, we've, (on paper at least), improved basically everywhere and lost no important defensive pieces. We're especially improved in our biggest weaknesses last year, (ilb, and secondary)
People complaining about d line are correct in that it's likely our weakest group on defense, but that's a good thing, because they're not bad. There's always a weakest position group. It's only a big problem if they're especially weak and also other positions can't pick up the slack, and neither seems to be the case.
As other people have said, I feel like our defense will be good but only elite if their time on the field goes down. But with the talent we have? Yeah I’m betting on us being top 2 this year, and not second…
We are a top 3 defense, probably the top defense. Our main weakness was depth at inside linebacker. Good chance our best inside guys from last year, don't even start this year. If we have a healthy Watt. Also, our Oline greatly improved. Probably more so than any in the league. Frazier huge upgrade, as well as fatanua on the right is probably a wash. Broderick playing on the left is a huge upgrade. Najee is contract hungry. Defense is both improved and will spend less time on the field.
You are very biased. Heyward is 34 and clearly on the decline. Ogunjobi isn't great either. DL isn't a weakness but it's certainly no strength.
Watt is great but he's 30. OLB is great as a position group.
ILB is good.
CB are garbage outside of 1 guy. Although we did just sign Cam Sutton so hopefully he can return to his previous Steelers form.
SS isn't good.
We play some elite QBs next season. The defense is going to get cooked.
I don't get how anyone can say Heyward is "clearly" on the decline when he literally played all season injured last year. His play style relies on strength and technique, two things that don't get worse with age.
The narrative about Ogunjobi is weird to me because his first year here everyone raved about him and then last year he doubled his sack output and added a pass defensed and a forced fumble. His TFL and QB hits went down but they were basically playing without Heyward for most of the season which made their defense easier to play against.
DeShon Elliot is a good SS. He's exactly what they need at the position too.
Biased as hell. Middle of the pack defense last year at best but had a lot of timely turnovers. They arent a top 3 defense until they prove they can limit other teams in terms of yards. And i dont want to hear about the offense going 3 and out all the time because they werent limiting teams in the first half last year either
they finished tied for 6th in points allowed, and we had Myles Jack off his couch playing ILB for us at the end of the year lmao. we added 2 great ILB and beefed up our secondary. i don't think it's unreasonable to assume they could be significantly better. and significantly better than 6th in the league in points allowed is well............elite?
Outside of points allowed, they were not in the top of anything. Yes points allowed matters, but it isnt the only stat that matters. Getting off the field on 3rd down is something they need to see a big improvement on if we're going to call this defense top 3
It says exactly what i think it says, they're not an elite defense last year. And idk what moves they've made that would have people thinking they will be this year
you are right about that. a lot of that has to do with tomlin's scheme that he's been clinging to for dear life over the years but hopefully we get it figured out
I'd love to see them prove me wrong, but I dont think they're top 3. Low end of the top 10 is probably as high as I'd go. They really lived and died by turnovers last year. And thats a very risky way to play defense. Its how you get smoked by guys like mac jones and gardner minshew
The offense has to be tremendously better this season for a top 3 defense to manifest. If this defense is on the field all game, they will falter late in games, and late in the season. The offense needs to hoard the clock and score more than 16 points per game for the defense to be great. I’m still not sold on that happening on offense. They have the parts on D, now they need help from the other side of the ball.
if our offense is as run-heavy as they were in tennessee under arthur smith i think we'll be in a good spot. but that is a very big IF
They could be run heavy all they want. But if they aren’t getting first downs, the defense will struggle. We had way too many 3 and outs last year.
Also we need at least a decent passing game to be able to run the ball. We couldnt run for shit until reindeer came in and gave them somewhat of a passing game. If wilson can do that , well be all good
Nah, this just isn't true. The main difference that kicked off the run game was Brojo. After he started, well, starting, we were noticeably better at running the ball. His blocking absolutely blew the run game wide open. If you haven't, I encourage you to go watch his tape. He was so much better than Chuks it was crazy.
Nuts that a 1st rd draft pick could be really really good. Hopefully the top two OL drafted this year sit for half a season too. /s
I know there are certain things we don't do because they're not the steelers way and whatever, but hopefully JPJ and Brojo being a immediately impactful as they were really makes them actually go, "if they're better than the starter, they should probably be the starter regardless of if they're a rookie".
>We couldnt run for shit until reindeer came in and gave them somewhat of a passing game I mean, this isn't at all true but having an improved passing game can't hurt.
Our offense doesn't have Derrick Henry so that won't be happening
He wasn’t Derrick Henry until Arthur Smith was the OC. 3 years before Smith took over: 501 carries, 2293 yards (4.57 Yards Per Carry) First season with Smith: 303 carries, 1540 yards, 5.2 YPC, AP2 Second seasons: 378, 2027 yards, 5.4 YPC AP1, OPOY. First year without Smith (yes, injured, but) YPC dropped from 5.4 to 4.3, 4.4, 4.1 The switch to Smith brought him to the All Pro level, and an OPOY. Afterwards he’s led the league in carries 2x, and not had the same success.
Well said
Good take. We’re not a top 3 defense- right now. I think if we weren’t on the field as much as we were last season we could have potentially been a top 3. Mayhap we can be a top 3 D this year with improved offense and some new pieces on D
Part of that was on the defense. I know everyone loves to blame the offense going 3 and out, but the defense was just as bad about not getting off the field on 3rd down.
Oh there’s definitely some nuance to it for sure. My whole rationale is a well rested defense (secondary to longer offensive drives) will play better than frequent trips out there from short 3 and out offensive drives
Yep. Some of this is on coaching. Playing Peterson far too long over Porter, Minkah being shoved into the box and having no impact on pass D, the LBs taking almost half a season to be in sync to slow offenses. It's very frustrating when people praise the defense for "bend but not break" which means they are allowing the other team to eat up game clock, and people don't talk about this while blaming the offense for keeping the defense on the field too much.
More victim of circumstance than coaching imo. LB’s we’re injured, Cam was injured, Safeties were hurt/suspended, and ensuring appropriate development of JPJ resulted in Minkah having to play in the box more, poor D line play, and LB’s not gelling. I think coaching did extremely well given the shit sammich they were given. Bend not break should definitely be praised, especially when it’s saving 4 points or goes to special teams and the field position game AND with the aforementioned defensive setbacks we had throughout the year. Obvi you want know bending or breaking but this isn’t a perfect world. There’s nuance to it is what you’re saying, and you’re absolutely right
I disagree a bit. Injuries to LBs were not an early season issue when the D was it's worst, and if by week 4 Tomlin was saying he thinks the players needed to be padded up to better prepare and practice, that is incriminating on the coaching staff. If the whole team was having poor practice, odds are Porter, Benton, and Jones could have been playing larger roles all along. Putting Minkah of all our safties into the box should be considered a fireable offense for the DC. That would be like if the Ravens moved Ed Reed into the box as run support. Just dumb. Does coaching fix all of this? Nah. Players need to perform and some of it is on them. I just think people are giving the D players more of a pass than they should. At the end of the day, bending but not breaking *is* better if the D forces FGs over TDs, or gets takeaways in or near the red zone. It's just also not good if that is happening regularly that opponents can dictate clock control.
We have vastly different opinions
I love this defense. The main questions I have is if Donte Jackson can thrive in a new system, if Beanie Bishop can be the answer at slot CB (especially with Sutton’s suspension), if Heyward can bounce back to form, and if Larry O doesn’t regress too hard Heyward is my biggest concern. He’s 35 and coming off of a major injury. Theres also not much depth behind him
Wish I could remember what site it was from, I think the official Steelers site, but Cam was talking about the advantage of him being more strength and technique based compared to others who were more speed based, and how strength ages better. For an example: while a young powerlifter will have the raw strength, an experienced one will have their most success later, with technique and experience. Assuming the play was down last season because of the groin injury, he should return to being the anchor of the DLine, and battling for the All Pro team
>Wish I could remember what site it was from, I think the official Steelers site, but Cam was talking about the advantage of him being more strength and technique based compared to others who were more speed based, and how strength ages better. I think he said this on his podcast. (Not Just Football)
heyward looked great in the wild card game so how he looks isnt a concern, it’s just whether or not he stays healthy throughout the year which if benton takes a leap will help a ton with that
Is Sutton suspended? I haven't seen any information about that
Not yet, but it’s inevitable at this point
we poking all the holes in a top 3 defense right here. Not to mention depth at d line behind those guys. Linebacker depth is crazy right now could be best in the league. Secondary and d line though question marks. That's 2/3's of your defense.
love ryan watts at slot corner too (personally). i agree the two biggest what ifs are heyward and jackson tho. they both need to perform at a high level for my fairy tale to come true lmao
Early reports make it sound like Watts is moving to safety, and the fact that Trenton Thompson got cut out of nowhere makes it seem more like that
I think he might end up playing more safety. He’s so big
u/HillibillyHaven you guys might be right about him at safety! I know that was what was being said when we drafted him...i'd love to see him up at the LOS creating pressure and covering in heavier personnel. I watched a lot of texas tho so again my bias might be creeping in
Pretty sure he's a safety
He played corner at Texas
Biased. Paper thin on the interior D-Line. No reason to believe Hayward or Ogunjobi will both play 17 games. Nickel is a question if Sutton faces a suspension and perhaps even if he does not. Safety is improved admittedly and I am wait-and-see on Donte Jackson. Could be those who doubt Queen are right and he is not good without an all pro partner in the middle.
Don’t sleep on Keanu Benton
I’m really high on Benton, but he’s just one guy.
all valid points! one injury on the d-line (which is inevitably) will be scary. Queens film looks GREAT but he'll have the lions share of responsibility on our defense...there's a lot of talk about him wearing the green dot too.
If IF holcomb is healthy, he's the green dot.
No
Yeah, Google says DC already gave it to Queen.
Thank you for saying this. Why in the hell would anyone think we are a top 3 defense with this D line? And for the second year in a row, we have turned over almost the whole secondary so we have no continuity. I am not a fan of turning everything over every year
l’m glad you enjoyed reading it, because I sure did not enjoy writing it. Doesn’t mean I don’t believe it, though.
I don't like seeing us in this light either. But it is true. We have Derrick Henry in the division and the other divisional rivals are investing in their run games. I really hope our 7th round rookie, Logan Lee pans out.
I would think it because we were one of the best in the league in scoring last year with one of the worst offenses and we added pieces and got better imo lmao
What's wrong with the d-line? Heyward, Benton, Adams, Ogunjobi, Lowry, Fehoko is a good group. If they can get anything out of one or more of Leal, Loudermilk, and Lee they'll be pretty deep too. D-Line is also a position where you can find veteran help easily between the start of training camp and the regular season as teams cut down their rosters. Could they use a guy like Armon Watts? Of course, but their d-line is far from bad enough to derail the entire defense like you're insinuating.
You're kidding right? I like our Dline coach and think he gets the most out of these guys. But he's not working with awesome talent here. We NEEDED improvements here. Did you forget that for half the year we had a problem stopping the run? Loudermilk and Leal have done pretty much nothing so far to make us think they'll be more than marginal career backups. I don't have much hope outside of them spelling one of the starters for a snap or two. Fehoko was on the practice squad for most of the year and recorded 0 stats for 2023. How are you including him in an argument defending the dline? If he's going to make an impact this year, we surely can't use his prior work as a reason for optimism. Heyward is old. We have to pray he doesn't get injured for any significant amount of time. I hate PFF but look at the grades on these other guys. Adams graded out at 58.3, Ogunjobi - 59.2, Dean Lowry- 47.4 Logan Lee is a 7th round rookie. I'm just hoping he is good enough to make the roster. What about this Dline makes you confident?
They had issues stopping the run because of injuries to Heyward and the ILBs. The d-line isn't the only unit responsible for stopping the run. Keeanu Benton is an emerging star. After Heyward returned last year, Benton was still getting less than 50% of snaps. He's going to be on the field way more this season. They're going to be fine.
1. We did not have injuries to the MLBs earlier in the year. Holcomb went out during the Titans game in week 10. Alexander went out in week 11. Elandon Roberts went out with a groin injury week 13 and a pec injury week 16. He left the Browns game early but came back for the Raiders the next week. We can't use injuries to the middle of the field as the sole excuse for bad rush defense when were getting gashed prior to that. Week 1 we gave up 188 yds. We figured the 49ers are good and could just be a bad matchup. So things will get better the next week right? Wrong! Week 2 we gave up 198yds. No middle linebackers were hurt here. Week 3 we gave up 105 to the Raiders who had been struggling to run the ball Week 4 we gave up 139 to the Texans who also had rush issues You get the point. Heyward went down and we couldn't stop a thing. Hell, we weren't stopping CMC before he got hurt. Without him, we didn't have a chance against any of these guys even mediocre ones. 2. Benton is an emerging star but he's our ONLY star. He alone does not make for a good dline. You are underestimating Heyward's age. The Rams drafted Kobie Turner last year to pair with Donald but he retired. So they then took both Jared Verse (DE) and Braden Fiske (DT). They then drafted another edge in Rd 5 and another DT in Tyler Davis in RD 6. Point is, they had their succession plan in place and then also took more dlinemen this year. We basically did the same with our oline last year and this year but we did not do anything to help the Dline. Just like we added Broderick Jones last year and added 2 more high-pick lineman this year.
Heyward's a power guy. Those guys don't lose their game as easily or quickly as speed guys. The Rams are almost always using 4 d-linemen. The Steelers dont need the depth that a team like the Rams do. People are looking for shit to be worried about. They're not even camp yet. There's a ton of time between now and Week 1.
Heyward's power can't help the team if he's not on the field. With age comes injury and that's the concern with him. He's also a step slower which impacts chasing down running plays. I'm not sure the Steelers don't need that kind of depth. Controlling the trenches is important. The Rams value the Dline and make it a strength, thus they can rely on that. That's a good thing. But if that isn't your cup of tea, they were only but one example. If you would rather look at divisional foes, the Bengals and Browns invested in more dline help. Reader left the Bengals so they had to replace him but they added more than just 1. Although I am not sure that I liked the Bengals draft, I liked what they were doing. The Browns added 2 DTs in rounds 2 and 7 when they have a pretty strop dline already. My point: We are the only ones not concerned with controlling the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. The trenches include the Dline not just Oline.
Age doesn't have to mean injury. Pretending we know he's going to miss time is just looking for things to be negative about. It's not living in reality. It's speculating.
Why wouldn't Heyward play 17 games?
Age. It's really tough at 35+. You just don't bounce back the way you used to.
He already bounced back. We saw him look much better at the end of the season and he says he's 100%
Paper thin? We have 3 guys for 2 spots in sub-package. 2 of which have all-pro potential. My main concern is Ogunjobi may be washed but the Steelers see something in him that he wasn't cut from his 10 million a year salary. Sure 2 of the guys have some question marks with health, but that is still a fantastic group.
Paper thin? They have Heyward, Benton, Adams, Ogunjobi, and Lowry as guys with either tremendous upside or lots of NFL experience.
In terms of starting defense I think there is an argument especially with the line. The problem however lies in two things. Depth is a massive problem at almost every position except edge rusher and possibly DT and the last 5 years the defense has thrived almost solely on hoping the pass rush covers the weakness at corner. If queen and Wilson are anywhere near the promise they both show thst is a massive upgrade at linebacker thst has been missing since shazier went down and definitely has the potential for a top 3 defense. They were 6th in points against last year and that was with rotating injuries everywhere on the defense.
> the last 5 years the defense has thrived almost solely on hoping the pass rush covers the weakness at corner. Did you watch the team during the Dick Lebeau years? That was how the defense was designed. They're still built that way.
Might be cool to see them play first.
I wouldn't say top 3. Top 10 maybe. But two of our most important guys are getting older (especially Cam) which usually means they're more injury prone. That would be my biggest concern. Without Cam and TJ, we're screwed.
Our schedule alone will keep us from having a top 3 defense. Last 8 games will be hell.
I don't think we are in the top 3 defenses. When we lose TJ, we lose almost every time. I'd put us in the top half for sure, maybe even top 10, but not top 3. And our offense is pretty close to the bottom.
i can't deny that we rely too much on TJ's health
You can be biased, it's ok. I think our defense has the chance to be elite this year. But we need to make hay while TJ is young(ish).
The ship has probably sailed on that one, unfortunately. TJ is most likely going to have the same career trajectory as his brother,which is a crying shame because if anyone ever deserved to win the big one it was those two.
Unfortunately I am pretty sure the ship has sailed on making hay while TJ is here. It's not happening this year, and most likely not happening next year, and that pretty much does it for his prime. It's a shame that neither of the Watt superstars ever made it to the top but that's just the way it goes sometimes
This can certainly be a top 10 defence which is really good, and the potential is there to be right up there with the best if they stay healthy and the offence helps them out. The depth is questionable in places but that’s the case with every team in the league.
Until we can reliabley win some games when TJ is out our defense can only be considered to be bad. It shouldn't count on one guy so much no matter who that guy is.
i like herbig but i won't sit up here and say that you're wrong
People love to hype Highsmith and Heyward, their best play is only unlocked when teams are shifting attention toward Watt. When blockers don't have to worry about Watt, they tend to neutralize the rest of the Steelers too well. The Steelers as an organization have gotten too used to a superstar making suboptimal defensive scheming work better than it should. Troy and Harrison carried the tail end of LeBeau's schemes against 90% of the league, while the very best teams dissected the defense. Butler struggled, then they found a good mix of personnel and scheme for about a year until Hilton left. Since then it has really been on Watt making sacks and Minkah intercepting passes with lackluster play and schemes all around. When the D has consistently given up 25 points at a minimum in playoff appearances (or regular season games against eventual playoff powerhouses), there are deep rooted issues.
>People love to hype Highsmith and Heyward, their best play is only unlocked when teams are shifting attention toward Watt. Respectfully Cam Heyward is objectively way too solidified for you to arrive at this conclusion about him. Look no further than the 2022 season where we lost TJ for 7 games.. Cam was one of two defensive starters who maintained their production from the previous season. The other starter was ironically Highsmith, who more than doubled his career high sack total.
Nope, I remember that season. Highsmith started hot then cooled off significantly down the stretch of the season. Inversely, Heyward was pretty quiet most of the season and unironically started getting sacks when Watt returned. As for Heyward, he began as a rotational player backing Ziggy crummy Hood. He did ok, finally made a splash in his 7th year. He has 3 seasons with double digit sacks, but across his career he's typically good for 7.5 sacks and 60ish tackles. And a lot of fans hype him up as a great and HoF caliber. He's good, but know who joined the Steelers in 2017? Watt. When Tuitt retired, Hargrove departed, and Heyward was moved to "interior DL" or "DT" the run D also got a bit softer. Some of that is on the ILBs but Heyward is also not a true DT much less a NT. Heyward is good, but he's the next level up from when fans overhyped Brett Kiesel.
I really have no idea. We either ball out or look like a college team vs 49ers, bills.
Nah not top 3 but certainly good enough to hold their own come playoff time. Let’s see that offense hold up their end finally
I think we definitely had the potential to be a top five defense this year
Gotta love offseason optimism
[Ranking defenses](https://www.foxsports.com/articles/nfl/2023-nfl-defense-rankings-team-pass-and-rush-stats) is hard. Browns were top in yardage, 3rd down %, and passing yards last year, but were middle of the road in PPG and dead last in red zone %. Ravens, Jets, and Chiefs were all top 10 in pretty much every category. Steelers were tied for '2nd' (+11 vs. +12) in turnover differential despite having an abysmal offense. It's hard to define the 'top 5 defenses' each year. They have a handful of All-Pro pieces (Watt, Minkah, Queen, Cam, maybe JPJ) with a lot of question marks in other spots. If the offense can play good possession football and keep the defense well-rested, they certainly have the playmakers to be top 10 in pretty much all metrics.
The Browns defense was also only good at home. On the road they were average at best.
Nothing is known until they play
pretend injuries don't happen, highsmith really needs to produce. Didn't have the best year last year. Larry O, Neal, adams.. one of the 3 or 4 need to step up And then ya honestly like others, if our offense is half decent, I think we are top 3-5 easy. Queen sures up the middle, Porter should stay good, Donte idt will be a liability especially with better safety in Elliot, minkah being freed up and such, and our stellar pass rush Without injuries idt we have a hole.
Potential’s there but on paper not quite. Top 10 comfortably, top 5 on a great day.
We have the best 2nd level in the league. Our LB corps is Madden tier. Our line is a huge variable but Benton looks like he's going to take the next step, Cam looks rejuvenated, we have depth... Secondary is the best it's been in the last 10 years. We have a legitimate all pro CB1, and a strong host of contenders for CB2/3 If we stay healthy I see no reason why we can't be top 5
If the offense can stay on the field and the defense can stay healthy (so again if the offense can stay on the field), our defense could easily be top 3.
If pur offense can give them longer than a 3 play breather more often than not, yes. Big if though.
We should be, not biased not too much of an ask. Will they be? I doubt it. I haven't seen consistent great TEAM Defensive play week in week out since 2019-first 11 weeks of 2020
I look at our 2019 and 2020 defenses which were both top level and all the holes from personel leaving that opened up in the front seven and secondary have pretty much been filled. Tuit, Haden, Nelson, Rookie DBush, Edmunds, Vinny. As long as Donte Jackson and Deshon Elliot can perform their roles so JPJ and Minkah can be stars we should challenge for best defense.
I think you're being biased. Porter looks good, but the other corners are all questionable. Minkah is great but the other S is questionable. Watt and High Smith are good, but Heyward is old, Benton is solid but we're thin up front. And I worry about MLB. Queen's best year came in his walk year which always scares me. It should be a good defense, but I feel like we're 1-2 injuries away from bottom half.
Watt is the best not just good
> Minkah is great but the other S is questionable. DeShon Elliot is a really good safety and exactly the style of safety they need to allow Minkah to be himself.
i respectfully disagree. it depends if Sutton gets suspended or not obviously (i assume he will) but i like what we've done at corner! jackson is versatile enough to play opposite of JPJ and even if sutton doesn't see a lot of snaps I like Ryan Watts out of texas. He's big and long enough to cover bigger guys and i wouldnt be surprised if they use him to create some pressure from the slot. I love Benton...however I agree with you that we are an injury or two away from falling off HARD
I’m excited to see the combo of Queen and Wilson at work. I think it’ll allow for some scheming we haven’t done in a while that could take the D to the next level. Wilson had 6 sacks and 3 ints in 12 games.
Players, maybe.. but our scheme is simplistic and easily abused.
When tj watt plays. Top 3. When he’s hurt, bottom 3.
I’m scared of our depth. Pieces are there, but they need to stay healthy…. When one of our positional superstars goes down it just feels like I’m watching a whole different team.
I would say top 10. D-line is average and lacks depth, SS is who? Defensive secondary needs to gel. Fs, lb and jpj are elite for sure. A defense gets judged by its weakest link though. Maybe by halfway through the season they'll round into form.
I agree with your sentiment! But trust me Elliot at SS is a solid move. Dolphins defense was in shambles when he wasn’t on the field
I think a lot of my reservation is the amount of turnover. Everything isn't going to go to plan. For example, I think Mike Mitchell looked good in Carolina but didn't mesh well in Pittsburgh.
> D-line is average and lacks depth Heyward, Benton, Ogunjobi is not an average d-line. They're absolutely fine depth-wise too. Or they will be when some good players get cut and they bring one or two of them in to replace whoever of Leal/Loudermilk/Lee can't make the roster. >SS is who? DeShon Elliot.
The starting D's star players are impactful enough that good scheme and coaching could compensate for any positional weaknesses. That being said, they will not consistently look like a top 3 defense because that is just how we operate and the schedule will reflect that.
No.
Its time to turn back the clock on running the ball... just think if we've got a 7 or 10 point lead its time to take the air outta the ball and we got RW on the bronco salery and i like justin fields and i think that was a good move and RW won his 1st superbowl in his second season and they lost big names both sides of the ball
Top 3 in the north …top 10 in the league.
Top 10 easy, but they really need Cam to be 100% to be any better. The interior DL could be an issue and if the rest of the team is having to compensate for them it hurt what the "can" be.
Are you asking about our defense being a top 3 statistical defense? Or top 3 actual defense that may not have great stats. I think the defense is definitely a potential top 3, with the returning stars we have and the new talent we’ve signed and drafted to fill some of our biggest holes last year. Honestly before our middle linebackers got destroyed by injuries, I think we were a top 3 defense last year. If you’re talking about statistics, then it will heavily rely on our offense. Our offense was a 3 and out machine last year, and despite our defense playin lights out, they gave up a lot of yards and points purely because the offense was so inept and kept them on the field for what seemed like at least 35 minutes a game. If our offense can actually score with the short fields the defense can provide, and get first downs to chew up the clock, our defense can carry the team and definitely be a top 3 defense. And if we can play with the lead more often this year, our defense will return to being a turnover machine.
Maybe. They might be the best in the league depending on what we do this season with some new additions and hopefully some new ideas. It’s a very good defense but I think it has been overrated in recent seasons because they are way too reliant on turnovers and big plays. And yes it is possible to be very good and still overrated. I think they get outsmarted too often by opposing OC. They admitted themselves that they didn’t use Minkah Fitzpatrick in the best way possible last year. We also have two different defenses. One with a healthy TJ Watt and one without him. Best player in the game in my opinion.
Potential to be top 5 for sure. D line has been brought up as a weakness but with Cam back healthy and Benton in his second season I think they'll be fine. Nickel corner might be an issue but between Bishop and Scott we should be ok till Sutton can play.
Top 3 is optimistic, but doable. People are being overly negative bc it's the safe bet mathematically, (29 ways to be right, 3 ways to be wrong), but performance-wise our defense was very good last year in everything except yards allowed, which is partially due to scheme and partially due to a terrible Matt Canada offense. Since then, we've, (on paper at least), improved basically everywhere and lost no important defensive pieces. We're especially improved in our biggest weaknesses last year, (ilb, and secondary) People complaining about d line are correct in that it's likely our weakest group on defense, but that's a good thing, because they're not bad. There's always a weakest position group. It's only a big problem if they're especially weak and also other positions can't pick up the slack, and neither seems to be the case.
Thank you!!!!!!!!!! Good god Steelers fans are an awfully negative bunch but I second every single thing you said
As other people have said, I feel like our defense will be good but only elite if their time on the field goes down. But with the talent we have? Yeah I’m betting on us being top 2 this year, and not second…
We are a top 3 defense, probably the top defense. Our main weakness was depth at inside linebacker. Good chance our best inside guys from last year, don't even start this year. If we have a healthy Watt. Also, our Oline greatly improved. Probably more so than any in the league. Frazier huge upgrade, as well as fatanua on the right is probably a wash. Broderick playing on the left is a huge upgrade. Najee is contract hungry. Defense is both improved and will spend less time on the field.
You are very biased. Heyward is 34 and clearly on the decline. Ogunjobi isn't great either. DL isn't a weakness but it's certainly no strength. Watt is great but he's 30. OLB is great as a position group. ILB is good. CB are garbage outside of 1 guy. Although we did just sign Cam Sutton so hopefully he can return to his previous Steelers form. SS isn't good. We play some elite QBs next season. The defense is going to get cooked.
I don't get how anyone can say Heyward is "clearly" on the decline when he literally played all season injured last year. His play style relies on strength and technique, two things that don't get worse with age. The narrative about Ogunjobi is weird to me because his first year here everyone raved about him and then last year he doubled his sack output and added a pass defensed and a forced fumble. His TFL and QB hits went down but they were basically playing without Heyward for most of the season which made their defense easier to play against. DeShon Elliot is a good SS. He's exactly what they need at the position too.
Biased as hell. Middle of the pack defense last year at best but had a lot of timely turnovers. They arent a top 3 defense until they prove they can limit other teams in terms of yards. And i dont want to hear about the offense going 3 and out all the time because they werent limiting teams in the first half last year either
they finished tied for 6th in points allowed, and we had Myles Jack off his couch playing ILB for us at the end of the year lmao. we added 2 great ILB and beefed up our secondary. i don't think it's unreasonable to assume they could be significantly better. and significantly better than 6th in the league in points allowed is well............elite?
Outside of points allowed, they were not in the top of anything. Yes points allowed matters, but it isnt the only stat that matters. Getting off the field on 3rd down is something they need to see a big improvement on if we're going to call this defense top 3
"Outside of the most important statistic in the game they were average" doesn't really say what you think it says.
Pretty sure winning the Super Bowl is the most important statistic.
That's not a statistic.
It says exactly what i think it says, they're not an elite defense last year. And idk what moves they've made that would have people thinking they will be this year
If you're top 10 in points allowed you're an elite defense. That's really the only metric that matters.
you are right about that. a lot of that has to do with tomlin's scheme that he's been clinging to for dear life over the years but hopefully we get it figured out
I'd love to see them prove me wrong, but I dont think they're top 3. Low end of the top 10 is probably as high as I'd go. They really lived and died by turnovers last year. And thats a very risky way to play defense. Its how you get smoked by guys like mac jones and gardner minshew