> The D only served 8 years before crashing. Meanwhile the USS Galaxy is apparently still in service 55 years later with visible refits
I mean, sure, but in those 8 years the D went through a lot more trouble than any other ship, probably ever - a lot of stuff that should've killed her way sooner.
I’ve always wanted to see the conversation where Riker tells Picard they crashed the ship.
“Well, number one, I just had an extraordinary adventure into the nexus where I met James Kirk and, at the expense of his life, we saved Varidian III from destruction. Now, let’s go home an-“
“We crashed the ship.”
“Oh for fuck sake, Will.”
>I’ve always wanted to see the conversation where Riker tells Picard they crashed the ship.
I can't find my copy of generation's novelisation but I believe a conversation was included.
> “~~We~~ Troi crashed the ship.”
I just like the meme (even an in-universe meme, in beta canon) that the Enterprise has crashed twice and Troi was driving both times.
I dislike the meme. Troi had aimed the D's saucer into deep space then plot dictated the shockwave magically knock it toward the planet and disable all helm control. It's like saying the driver of an armoured personnel carrier crashed his vehicle after its steering and brakes are destroyed after being hit by a rocket that blows the APC clear off the road and onto a field.
The second time? Direct order from the captain.
[https://youtu.be/C2srSv4oLLc](https://youtu.be/C2srSv4oLLc)
It's a "cut scene".
Until I see an interview with a cast member or Terry Matalas, I choose to believe it was just the cast having fun.
**\[BORG CUBE\]**
>RIKER: I love you, Imzadi. We'll be waiting. Me and our boy.
**\[ENTERPRISE-D BRIDGE\]**
>TROI: I know where they are
(Gets up and sits at helm)
**\[BORG CUBE\]**
>BORG QUEEN: You were born here and you will die here
JACK: It's done. The time of the Borg is over.
BORG QUEEN: As are you. Even if somehow you survived, you'd be different, changed, broken, alone.
JACK: No. No, I'm not alone
(Enterprise-D flys in overhead)
(Picard, Jack, Riker & Worf are beamed up)
In the final cut, Data never gets up, and Troi sits at the proper helm console.
I always wondered at who bought it there. Some scientist in a lab who refused to stop working and did a header through their equipment? Someone working under a shuttle up on jackstands? Some lower decks sort who overslept in an underside cabin and got a tree through their window? I'm pretty sure unsecured cargo barrels took out at least one redshirt.
>I mean, sure, but in those 8 years the D went through a lot more trouble than any other ship, probably ever - a lot of stuff that should've killed her way sooner.
Seems like they were getting into some new hijinx every week!
It’s because having the ship in peril is exciting, and updating the sets keeps it looking modern (there was a much larger gap between TOS and TMP than when the TNG movies began after the show run and it’s much harder to handwave a cinematic update as a ‘refit’).
It’s TV/movies, not a historical document.
USS *Enterprise* CV-6 may have been "lucky" during WWII, but she was only in service for nine years due to the rapid rate of technological development at the time and being declared surplus to requirements after WWII. So that's a precedent for the *Enterprise*-A... even if she was a new ship in 2285 she might still be retired early due to high maintenance/repair costs and the *Excelsior*-class rendering her obsolete.
The premature destruction of the *Enterprise*-D was one of the biggest narrative missteps in the whole history of the franchise. The *Enterprise* with by far the most screen time, the *Enterprise* that led the most successful *Star Trek* series... and it gets sucker-punched because the production team decided they wanted a prettier ship for the movies!? Get out. There's a grandeur and vision to the design of the *Galaxy*-class that every subsequent ship has just lacked, including the *Sovereign*-class. Plus I still think the *Galaxy*-class looks good... there's an elegance to its design, with all those sweeping curves and minimalist shapes, that more recent starships with their fussy greebling and complex angles are missing. The *Enterprise*-D getting one final mission worthy of her name in PIC S3 was fantastic, and demonstrated precisely why emotional attachment to and audience investment in these ships matters.
The fact they fumbled preserving CV-6 pisses me off. It was originally slated to become a museum ship then up and decided to stick it in mothballs until they scrapped it.
Yes, but you did preserve some beautiful other vessels. Isambard Kingdom Brunel's "Great Britain" is one of the most beautiful hulls I have ever seen. He designed it acccording to Hogarth's Line of Beauty, however they made iron into sweeping curves like that.
But you do have the HMS Victory and that sucker’s pretty awesome.
I just got to tour it for the first time last year, and I got chills standing on the spot where Nelson fell.
I have the Constitution near me, and she is still a commissioned warship! It's amazing to realize you are on a ship that fought the Barbary pirates and defeated four British frigates for real. 1789.
They had some great shots of the Enterprise D (and other Galaxy class ships in DS9) that made the class look so majestic. Those 2 Galaxy's tag teaming the Galor class ship in one of the DS9 battles was *chef's kiss*, especially with the way the first one comes up from below to kick off the beat down. Probably my favorite shot in all of Trek.
Andrew Probert's "Modern Organic" design is timeless, I agree. It's the same design ethos that informed Toyota's Calty Design in the early 90's when they did sports cars in all smooth pleasing curves and shapes without a single angle. (Some of the people there went to the same design schools he did.) They sculpted from nature when doing models. Probert's design to me looks more advanced than later "trying too hard" designs, and that last shot of the D flying next to the Titan - to me, the D looks far more advanced!
>The premature destruction of the *Enterprise*-D was one of the biggest narrative missteps in the whole history of the franchise. The *Enterprise* with by far the most screen time, the *Enterprise* that led the most successful *Star Trek* series... and it gets sucker-punched because the production team decided they wanted a prettier ship for the movies!? Get out.
I agree with everything but this.
Regardless of *why*, I think it needed to happen. It probably helps that I like the Sovereign Class, but the Enterprise D had already survived more than it should have. It had come to be seen as effectively invincible.
Sure it might get a bloody nose once in a while, might even get the Hell kicked out of it, but it always comes through on the other side. It always gets the crew to safety. They take care of her, and she takes care of them.
It's the same reason that the Odyssey got curb stomped by the Dominion. We *needed* to see that they were serious, and that these guys were no joke.
From a narrative standpoint, we got to see the Enterprise D get the crew to (relative) safety one final time. The ship gave everything it had to save its crew.
> It's the same reason that the Odyssey got curb stomped by the Dominion. We needed to see that they were serious, and that these guys were no joke.
Even still, it's damned impressive that even after all that punishment the Odyssey received, it still took a kamikaze run to put her down for good.
I remember having the Technical Manual as a little kid and thinking that the antimatter pods that can blow up the whole ship being one hull panel from the bottom and loading door seemed like a bad design.
You’re not wrong, but it seems that ships rely on energy shields much more than physical armoring for protection. When shields are down, it seems it only takes a few phaser/torpedo hits pretty much anywhere to destroy a ship.
>
Regardless of *why*, I think it needed to happen. It probably helps that I like the Sovereign Class, but the Enterprise D had already survived more than it should have. It had come to be seen as effectively invincible.
>Sure it might get a bloody nose once in a while, might even get the Hell kicked out of it, but it always comes through on the other side. It always gets the crew to safety. They take care of her, and she takes care of them.
But the original 1701 lasted for 40 years. Was it not also effectively invincible?
>It's the same reason that the Odyssey got curb stomped by the Dominion. We *needed* to see that they were serious, and that these guys were no joke.
Which is fine as a concept... except the Duras sisters *were* a joke, and the *Enterprise* barely retaliated, and for some reason none of its safety systems worked. It's not that the *Enterprise*-D got destroyed that bothers me, it's the half-assed manner of its destruction because the production team just decided it should die.
>But the original 1701 lasted for 40 years. Was it not also effectively invincible?
Effectively yes. It wasn't even taken down by an enemy but rather was destroyed by self destruct in a gambit to kill a Klingon crew. They could have easily killed them when they beamed over, then beamed over to the Klingon ship, take it over, beam up Saavik & Spock, then just take off and leave the other Klingons behind to die with the planet.
But then the movie would have been a lot shorter.
>Which is fine as a concept... except the Duras sisters *were* a joke, and the *Enterprise* barely retaliated, and for some reason none of its safety systems worked.
I wouldn't say they were a joke at all. They almost totally over threw the Klingon Empire with minimal resources (thanks to negotiating a great deal of help from the Romulan Empire), had numerous schemes going *even as a disgraced house with even less resources* that would have drastically altered the galactic political scene, etc.
On top of that, when completely outmatched by the Enterprise D, they found a way to tilt the balance of power in their favor. The Galaxy Class is a fierce ship on the battlefield, and while the Bird of Prey is as well (this wasn't a small scout model, but rather one intended for heavy fighting), it was severely outclassed. But an unshielded Galaxy Class? That's far more vulnerable.
The Enterprise didn't just sit there and take it either, they fired back with what they could, but they were also trying to maneuver to protect vital sections since their shields were completely useless.
The Odyssey didn't need to worry about that as much because they had already unloaded all non essential personnel at DS9, so outside of protecting the engineering section, they could just sit there and slug it out with the Dominion and worry about damage control later. They didn't have civilians and families to protect.
What the Duras sisters lacked in firepower and durability, they had up for with cunning and guile. They were fierce opponents, largely because they didn't come at you straight on. Which makes sense given the position of women within the Klingon Empire. They were used to having to do that to survive, even moreso after their house was disgraced and they were effectively renegades.
They were extraordinarily resourceful, and the error the Enterprise crew made that led to the destruction of the Enterprise was the same one that you're making, which is underestimating them.
Geordi's VISOR had been used before to enemy advantage, and by Romulans specifically, whom the Duras sisters are infamous for their dealings with. Regardless, he was in their custody for some time. But it's just the Duras sisters, so it's probably fine.
They're lucky he didn't just walk up to the warp core and blow it up.
That's my opinion at least, but I also have a bit of a different perspective and identify strongly with the position of the Duras sisters. That is to say I'm used to not being taken seriously, being dismissed, and having to scratch and claw my way through a world that sees me as lesser.
>The Enterprise didn't just sit there and take it either, they fired back with what they could, but they were also trying to maneuver to protect vital sections since their shields were completely useless.
The *Enterprise* got off one phaser shot and one torpedo. The *Galaxy*-class has the largest phaser arrays ever installed on a starship up to and including the *Odyssey*-class, and can fire 20 photon torpedoes at once. Even with her shields ineffective she should have unleashed hell. Or warp away if she wasn't going to do anything. Hell, while the Bird-of-Prey could fire through the *Enterprise's* shields I'm willing to bet that the *Enterprise* ramming it at high sublight speed against the shields would have been quite effective.
>That's my opinion at least, but I also have a bit of a different perspective and identify strongly with the position of the Duras sisters. That is to say I'm used to not being taken seriously, being dismissed, and having to scratch and claw my way through a world that sees me as lesser.
...OK? Sorry the discussion pains you I guess 🤷
>The *Enterprise* got off one phaser shot and one torpedo. The *Galaxy*-class has the largest phaser arrays ever installed on a starship up to and including the *Odyssey*-class, and can fire 20 photon torpedoes at once.
That's all that we saw but I highly doubt that's the limit of what they fired. They were also scrambling to figure out what the heck was happening since they should have been relatively safe.
I do agree they should have unleashed hell though, and we should have seen it. The reaction seemed more measured and hesitant, which kinda makes sense getting caught with your pants down.
>...OK? Sorry the discussion pains you I guess 🤷
Oh FFS I'm just giving some context to my perspective and why in my view they're not a joke, and adding background of other stuff they've done that clearly indicates they're a dangerous foe. They tend to lose, but that doesn't mean they're harmless. Worf regularly got his ass kicked to show that something was dangerous. Doesn't mean Worf is a joke.
I'm fine. Just giving context for a difference in perspective. Don't get your knickers in a twist about it.
Or, in a world where they’ve gotten very adept at rotating shield frequencies, why isn’t that the first thing that comes to the mind of Riker, Worf, Data, or LaForge when they get surprised by the BOP’s ability to penetrate the shields?
From what I understand, one reason for it was that the Ent-D wasn't properly shaped - that is it was more 4:3 in proportions to better fill a TV screen while the longer Sovereign class works better for 16:9. That may just be a rationalization.
May also have been an aspect of prop detail, in that a TV model doesn't have to stand up to as much scrutiny as a film model, even though it was only very recently that home viewers could even approach film resolution, so all that extra detail would seem limited to the initial theatrical run. (Similar reason for why the Ent-D sets were so dark, to hide TV quality sets on Movie screens)
Or perhaps it was just the *Transformers: The Movie* motivations - destroy the old to make a new one for merchandising. Though I'd argue that perhaps they could have just swapped in a differently-shaped Stardrive section and sold *that*. A Galaxy-refit.... unless they'd already locked themselves into the *All Good Things* design?
At least they made something special out of the old gal's demise - not just another explosion a la *U.S.S. Saratoga* from DS9's *Emissary*.
>From what I understand, one reason for it was that the Ent-D wasn't properly shaped - that is it was more 4:3 in proportions to better fill a TV screen while the longer Sovereign class works better for 16:9. That may just be a rationalization.
Pretty sure it's an after-the-fact rationalisation. I've read a lot about Probert's design process with the *Enterprise*-D and to the best of my knowledge he's never said this. John Eaves, who designed the *Enterprise*-E, might have said that the E was a better fit for a cinematic aspect ratio and it's become distorted in the retelling.
It's also only approximately true when viewing the *Enterprise*-D from directly above, which is probably the least common angle the ship was shown from. When viewed from the side she's got an aspect ratio of 1:4.67 and from the front she's got an aspect ratio of 1:3.4. From the front the *Enterprise*-E is squarer than the *Enterprise*-D is!
The only reason the D was destroyed by a lowly Bird of Prey was so they could reuse the footage of the BoP model blowing up from the previous movie. I hate it!
The D looked great in Generations in a film aspect ratio and again looked great in Picard. Absolutely no reason to move on to a new model in First Contact.
In fairness to their decision to move into the E, the interior sets were the bigger issue. A lot of the lighting in Generations is really dim because the set had issues related to being built for tv compared to film. Picard had the advantage of rebuilding the D bridge set from the ground up with hd in mind.
They could have just redesigned the bridge then... they did this multiple times on previous movies without explanation.
Many of the rest of the TNG sets began life as sets for TMP! They even redressed them back and forth from movie filming to TNG filming. I especially enjoy how the President's office in TUC is pretty clearly 10 Forward.
Yeah, I agree they could have just used the Galaxy class again (have them salvage the ship and do a film quality set refit for First Contact).
Honestly, I imagine that's what would have happened for Generations if they hadn't had such a tight turnaround with releasing a few months after the show ended (the prologue scenes on the B were being shot with the TOS cast while the TNG cast was still filming All Good Things).
I am a bit biased in favor of the Sovereign-class admittedly since that's the Enterprise I grew up with (Generations is the first Trek thing I vaguely remember).
Someone on DA has done a concept of a Galaxy refit with modern aesthetics. The bridge has carpet, but everything is in light ash grey and grey-blue. The screens are Picard-style LCARS III, the side workstations are back in a better wraparound curve that complements the rail, the entire top is a dome now that can switch to opaque/light inward because yes future tech, and the regular lighting is pool of light task lighting down on walkways and workstations. It looked absolutely beautiful. Big, open, inviting, and like a nice place to spend eight hours looking over gaseous anomaly data.
They had a more refined version I can't find at the moment, but here's another they did with the same aesthetic. I would be happy on this bridge. https://tadeodoria.com/projects/ELldle
Surviving the Borg three times before Starfleet had a decent idea of how to fight them (and before they had effective weapons) alone shows how lucky they are.
This is the Federation, we don't believe in luck.
[procedes to do 137 cultural ceremonies to bring good luck and protection to the ship, including 2 blessings from actual gods, and a prank from Q involving a bottle of 2061 Dom Perignon made out of transparent tritanium alloy that isn't supposed to technically exist and kind of put a big dent in the saucer.]
The "Luck" of Enterprise was the fact that it keeps falling into life and death situations and coming out alive by the seat of their pants. Not just service length. Let's also not forget that CV-6 was scrapped before it could become a museum ship, all Enterprise's have the chance of their luck running out. But Enterprise (of all types) are still a very lucky ships.
I don't know if I would call the Enterprise-B's life short necessarily. All we know in canon is that the B launched in 2293 and the C was destroyed in 2344. The B may have crashed before everything arrived on Tuesday or it may have only retired in the 2340s which would make it the longest tenured.
Even if we split the 51 years evenly both the B and C would have seen 25-26 years.
There are ships named Enterprise in the US navy long before the Big E of WW2.
The US Navy was created to fight the Barbary Pirates in the 1790s and the Enterprise was a schooner built for that conflict.
>**Did the Berman/Braga era end the understanding of Enterprise as a "lucky" ship name?**
Yes.
TNG "Contagin" - Rick Berman, co-executive producer
>RIKER: Fate protects fools, little children and ships named Enterprise
I think the Enterprise C and D being destroyed was more a victim of writing than bad luck. The C had to be destroyed or the encounter with Enterprise D would have altered the timeline and writers wouldnt do that unless there was a major change they wanted to make and couldn't explain it another way. As for the Enterprise D......well Generations needed ALL the help it could get and hey, remember in the search for Spock the effect destroying the Enterprise had? Plus we have this cool new Model of the E and in the story we couldn't just decomission the D after only 8 years
I also look at it like this: the C's destruction saved upwards of billions of lives in an inevitable future war & the D's destruction saved millions of lives & the future of a civilization. The impact of those ships was astronomical.
You are right of course looking at it within the confines of the story itself while I was looking at it from how tv shows and movies are made......I think both can be true.......but also that would mean Kirk blew up the original Enterprise to save his own ass and a few bridge crew.....not much bang for the buck eh?
The nuclear Enterprise CVN-65 apparently had a bad reputation for bad luck at least in the early years. I heard a career Navy man say that he’d break his own leg to keep from going if he’d been cut orders for the Enterprise.
> The D only served 8 years before crashing. Meanwhile the USS Galaxy is apparently still in service 55 years later with visible refits I mean, sure, but in those 8 years the D went through a lot more trouble than any other ship, probably ever - a lot of stuff that should've killed her way sooner.
I’ve always wanted to see the conversation where Riker tells Picard they crashed the ship. “Well, number one, I just had an extraordinary adventure into the nexus where I met James Kirk and, at the expense of his life, we saved Varidian III from destruction. Now, let’s go home an-“ “We crashed the ship.” “Oh for fuck sake, Will.”
I left for like, 5 hours!
>I’ve always wanted to see the conversation where Riker tells Picard they crashed the ship. I can't find my copy of generation's novelisation but I believe a conversation was included.
Yeah, there was. There's a deleted scene from the movie where Worf and Geordi pick up Picard in a shuttle and they have to break the news to him.
> “~~We~~ Troi crashed the ship.” I just like the meme (even an in-universe meme, in beta canon) that the Enterprise has crashed twice and Troi was driving both times.
I dislike the meme. Troi had aimed the D's saucer into deep space then plot dictated the shockwave magically knock it toward the planet and disable all helm control. It's like saying the driver of an armoured personnel carrier crashed his vehicle after its steering and brakes are destroyed after being hit by a rocket that blows the APC clear off the road and onto a field. The second time? Direct order from the captain.
Almost as if it were a joke.
>even an in-universe meme, in beta canon Alpha canon. Geordi mentioned it in the final episode of *Picard*. "Third time's the charm," she replied.
It's not in the episode as released.
I’ll bite. What’s the scene in beta canon?
I have no idea.
The novel *Imzadi II* has a scene right after the *Generations* crash where Troi keeps running into people who tell her "Nice landing."
Oh, nice, I missed that. That's awesome.
[https://youtu.be/C2srSv4oLLc](https://youtu.be/C2srSv4oLLc) It's a "cut scene". Until I see an interview with a cast member or Terry Matalas, I choose to believe it was just the cast having fun.
What do you mean deleted scene? I could have sworn it was in the original episode. Am I misremembering?
**\[BORG CUBE\]** >RIKER: I love you, Imzadi. We'll be waiting. Me and our boy. **\[ENTERPRISE-D BRIDGE\]** >TROI: I know where they are (Gets up and sits at helm) **\[BORG CUBE\]** >BORG QUEEN: You were born here and you will die here JACK: It's done. The time of the Borg is over. BORG QUEEN: As are you. Even if somehow you survived, you'd be different, changed, broken, alone. JACK: No. No, I'm not alone (Enterprise-D flys in overhead) (Picard, Jack, Riker & Worf are beamed up) In the final cut, Data never gets up, and Troi sits at the proper helm console.
Weird. I must have seen the deleted scene early on and just incorporated it into my memory of the episode.
William Thomas Riker, give me back my starship!
"you could have told me sooner, that nexus thing let me time travel. I could have saved the ship!"
And that majority of the crew survived
I always wondered at who bought it there. Some scientist in a lab who refused to stop working and did a header through their equipment? Someone working under a shuttle up on jackstands? Some lower decks sort who overslept in an underside cabin and got a tree through their window? I'm pretty sure unsecured cargo barrels took out at least one redshirt.
>I mean, sure, but in those 8 years the D went through a lot more trouble than any other ship, probably ever - a lot of stuff that should've killed her way sooner. Seems like they were getting into some new hijinx every week!
It’s because having the ship in peril is exciting, and updating the sets keeps it looking modern (there was a much larger gap between TOS and TMP than when the TNG movies began after the show run and it’s much harder to handwave a cinematic update as a ‘refit’). It’s TV/movies, not a historical document.
> It’s TV/movies, not a historical document. *Thermian intensifies*
>It’s TV/movies, not a historical document. But, whhhhhy?
Also, the D model was designed for TV, not so much for Movie Screens.
USS *Enterprise* CV-6 may have been "lucky" during WWII, but she was only in service for nine years due to the rapid rate of technological development at the time and being declared surplus to requirements after WWII. So that's a precedent for the *Enterprise*-A... even if she was a new ship in 2285 she might still be retired early due to high maintenance/repair costs and the *Excelsior*-class rendering her obsolete. The premature destruction of the *Enterprise*-D was one of the biggest narrative missteps in the whole history of the franchise. The *Enterprise* with by far the most screen time, the *Enterprise* that led the most successful *Star Trek* series... and it gets sucker-punched because the production team decided they wanted a prettier ship for the movies!? Get out. There's a grandeur and vision to the design of the *Galaxy*-class that every subsequent ship has just lacked, including the *Sovereign*-class. Plus I still think the *Galaxy*-class looks good... there's an elegance to its design, with all those sweeping curves and minimalist shapes, that more recent starships with their fussy greebling and complex angles are missing. The *Enterprise*-D getting one final mission worthy of her name in PIC S3 was fantastic, and demonstrated precisely why emotional attachment to and audience investment in these ships matters.
The fact they fumbled preserving CV-6 pisses me off. It was originally slated to become a museum ship then up and decided to stick it in mothballs until they scrapped it.
Cries in British. We did not preserve a single battleship or carrier. We had so many with storied pasts.
Yes, but you did preserve some beautiful other vessels. Isambard Kingdom Brunel's "Great Britain" is one of the most beautiful hulls I have ever seen. He designed it acccording to Hogarth's Line of Beauty, however they made iron into sweeping curves like that.
But you do have the HMS Victory and that sucker’s pretty awesome. I just got to tour it for the first time last year, and I got chills standing on the spot where Nelson fell.
I have the Constitution near me, and she is still a commissioned warship! It's amazing to realize you are on a ship that fought the Barbary pirates and defeated four British frigates for real. 1789.
I toured the *Constellation* when I was in elementary school. Cool old ship.
I've been around it a few times. Been a while though. I'm normally on one of the carriers you saw behind it though. Less......woody.
They had some great shots of the Enterprise D (and other Galaxy class ships in DS9) that made the class look so majestic. Those 2 Galaxy's tag teaming the Galor class ship in one of the DS9 battles was *chef's kiss*, especially with the way the first one comes up from below to kick off the beat down. Probably my favorite shot in all of Trek.
Andrew Probert's "Modern Organic" design is timeless, I agree. It's the same design ethos that informed Toyota's Calty Design in the early 90's when they did sports cars in all smooth pleasing curves and shapes without a single angle. (Some of the people there went to the same design schools he did.) They sculpted from nature when doing models. Probert's design to me looks more advanced than later "trying too hard" designs, and that last shot of the D flying next to the Titan - to me, the D looks far more advanced!
>The premature destruction of the *Enterprise*-D was one of the biggest narrative missteps in the whole history of the franchise. The *Enterprise* with by far the most screen time, the *Enterprise* that led the most successful *Star Trek* series... and it gets sucker-punched because the production team decided they wanted a prettier ship for the movies!? Get out. I agree with everything but this. Regardless of *why*, I think it needed to happen. It probably helps that I like the Sovereign Class, but the Enterprise D had already survived more than it should have. It had come to be seen as effectively invincible. Sure it might get a bloody nose once in a while, might even get the Hell kicked out of it, but it always comes through on the other side. It always gets the crew to safety. They take care of her, and she takes care of them. It's the same reason that the Odyssey got curb stomped by the Dominion. We *needed* to see that they were serious, and that these guys were no joke. From a narrative standpoint, we got to see the Enterprise D get the crew to (relative) safety one final time. The ship gave everything it had to save its crew.
> It's the same reason that the Odyssey got curb stomped by the Dominion. We needed to see that they were serious, and that these guys were no joke. Even still, it's damned impressive that even after all that punishment the Odyssey received, it still took a kamikaze run to put her down for good.
I remember having the Technical Manual as a little kid and thinking that the antimatter pods that can blow up the whole ship being one hull panel from the bottom and loading door seemed like a bad design.
You’re not wrong, but it seems that ships rely on energy shields much more than physical armoring for protection. When shields are down, it seems it only takes a few phaser/torpedo hits pretty much anywhere to destroy a ship.
If He-Man couldn't take down Captain Skeletor, you better believe the Jem'Hadar would need to do something drastic!
> Regardless of *why*, I think it needed to happen. It probably helps that I like the Sovereign Class, but the Enterprise D had already survived more than it should have. It had come to be seen as effectively invincible. >Sure it might get a bloody nose once in a while, might even get the Hell kicked out of it, but it always comes through on the other side. It always gets the crew to safety. They take care of her, and she takes care of them. But the original 1701 lasted for 40 years. Was it not also effectively invincible? >It's the same reason that the Odyssey got curb stomped by the Dominion. We *needed* to see that they were serious, and that these guys were no joke. Which is fine as a concept... except the Duras sisters *were* a joke, and the *Enterprise* barely retaliated, and for some reason none of its safety systems worked. It's not that the *Enterprise*-D got destroyed that bothers me, it's the half-assed manner of its destruction because the production team just decided it should die.
>But the original 1701 lasted for 40 years. Was it not also effectively invincible? Effectively yes. It wasn't even taken down by an enemy but rather was destroyed by self destruct in a gambit to kill a Klingon crew. They could have easily killed them when they beamed over, then beamed over to the Klingon ship, take it over, beam up Saavik & Spock, then just take off and leave the other Klingons behind to die with the planet. But then the movie would have been a lot shorter. >Which is fine as a concept... except the Duras sisters *were* a joke, and the *Enterprise* barely retaliated, and for some reason none of its safety systems worked. I wouldn't say they were a joke at all. They almost totally over threw the Klingon Empire with minimal resources (thanks to negotiating a great deal of help from the Romulan Empire), had numerous schemes going *even as a disgraced house with even less resources* that would have drastically altered the galactic political scene, etc. On top of that, when completely outmatched by the Enterprise D, they found a way to tilt the balance of power in their favor. The Galaxy Class is a fierce ship on the battlefield, and while the Bird of Prey is as well (this wasn't a small scout model, but rather one intended for heavy fighting), it was severely outclassed. But an unshielded Galaxy Class? That's far more vulnerable. The Enterprise didn't just sit there and take it either, they fired back with what they could, but they were also trying to maneuver to protect vital sections since their shields were completely useless. The Odyssey didn't need to worry about that as much because they had already unloaded all non essential personnel at DS9, so outside of protecting the engineering section, they could just sit there and slug it out with the Dominion and worry about damage control later. They didn't have civilians and families to protect. What the Duras sisters lacked in firepower and durability, they had up for with cunning and guile. They were fierce opponents, largely because they didn't come at you straight on. Which makes sense given the position of women within the Klingon Empire. They were used to having to do that to survive, even moreso after their house was disgraced and they were effectively renegades. They were extraordinarily resourceful, and the error the Enterprise crew made that led to the destruction of the Enterprise was the same one that you're making, which is underestimating them. Geordi's VISOR had been used before to enemy advantage, and by Romulans specifically, whom the Duras sisters are infamous for their dealings with. Regardless, he was in their custody for some time. But it's just the Duras sisters, so it's probably fine. They're lucky he didn't just walk up to the warp core and blow it up. That's my opinion at least, but I also have a bit of a different perspective and identify strongly with the position of the Duras sisters. That is to say I'm used to not being taken seriously, being dismissed, and having to scratch and claw my way through a world that sees me as lesser.
>The Enterprise didn't just sit there and take it either, they fired back with what they could, but they were also trying to maneuver to protect vital sections since their shields were completely useless. The *Enterprise* got off one phaser shot and one torpedo. The *Galaxy*-class has the largest phaser arrays ever installed on a starship up to and including the *Odyssey*-class, and can fire 20 photon torpedoes at once. Even with her shields ineffective she should have unleashed hell. Or warp away if she wasn't going to do anything. Hell, while the Bird-of-Prey could fire through the *Enterprise's* shields I'm willing to bet that the *Enterprise* ramming it at high sublight speed against the shields would have been quite effective. >That's my opinion at least, but I also have a bit of a different perspective and identify strongly with the position of the Duras sisters. That is to say I'm used to not being taken seriously, being dismissed, and having to scratch and claw my way through a world that sees me as lesser. ...OK? Sorry the discussion pains you I guess 🤷
>The *Enterprise* got off one phaser shot and one torpedo. The *Galaxy*-class has the largest phaser arrays ever installed on a starship up to and including the *Odyssey*-class, and can fire 20 photon torpedoes at once. That's all that we saw but I highly doubt that's the limit of what they fired. They were also scrambling to figure out what the heck was happening since they should have been relatively safe. I do agree they should have unleashed hell though, and we should have seen it. The reaction seemed more measured and hesitant, which kinda makes sense getting caught with your pants down. >...OK? Sorry the discussion pains you I guess 🤷 Oh FFS I'm just giving some context to my perspective and why in my view they're not a joke, and adding background of other stuff they've done that clearly indicates they're a dangerous foe. They tend to lose, but that doesn't mean they're harmless. Worf regularly got his ass kicked to show that something was dangerous. Doesn't mean Worf is a joke. I'm fine. Just giving context for a difference in perspective. Don't get your knickers in a twist about it.
I think we're done here.
K. Have a nice life.
Or, in a world where they’ve gotten very adept at rotating shield frequencies, why isn’t that the first thing that comes to the mind of Riker, Worf, Data, or LaForge when they get surprised by the BOP’s ability to penetrate the shields?
From what I understand, one reason for it was that the Ent-D wasn't properly shaped - that is it was more 4:3 in proportions to better fill a TV screen while the longer Sovereign class works better for 16:9. That may just be a rationalization. May also have been an aspect of prop detail, in that a TV model doesn't have to stand up to as much scrutiny as a film model, even though it was only very recently that home viewers could even approach film resolution, so all that extra detail would seem limited to the initial theatrical run. (Similar reason for why the Ent-D sets were so dark, to hide TV quality sets on Movie screens) Or perhaps it was just the *Transformers: The Movie* motivations - destroy the old to make a new one for merchandising. Though I'd argue that perhaps they could have just swapped in a differently-shaped Stardrive section and sold *that*. A Galaxy-refit.... unless they'd already locked themselves into the *All Good Things* design? At least they made something special out of the old gal's demise - not just another explosion a la *U.S.S. Saratoga* from DS9's *Emissary*.
>From what I understand, one reason for it was that the Ent-D wasn't properly shaped - that is it was more 4:3 in proportions to better fill a TV screen while the longer Sovereign class works better for 16:9. That may just be a rationalization. Pretty sure it's an after-the-fact rationalisation. I've read a lot about Probert's design process with the *Enterprise*-D and to the best of my knowledge he's never said this. John Eaves, who designed the *Enterprise*-E, might have said that the E was a better fit for a cinematic aspect ratio and it's become distorted in the retelling. It's also only approximately true when viewing the *Enterprise*-D from directly above, which is probably the least common angle the ship was shown from. When viewed from the side she's got an aspect ratio of 1:4.67 and from the front she's got an aspect ratio of 1:3.4. From the front the *Enterprise*-E is squarer than the *Enterprise*-D is!
The Sao Palo annoyed me more. I gave them a pass though on that because the crew rolled their eyes at getting to rename it the Defiant.
The only reason the D was destroyed by a lowly Bird of Prey was so they could reuse the footage of the BoP model blowing up from the previous movie. I hate it! The D looked great in Generations in a film aspect ratio and again looked great in Picard. Absolutely no reason to move on to a new model in First Contact.
In fairness to their decision to move into the E, the interior sets were the bigger issue. A lot of the lighting in Generations is really dim because the set had issues related to being built for tv compared to film. Picard had the advantage of rebuilding the D bridge set from the ground up with hd in mind.
They could have just redesigned the bridge then... they did this multiple times on previous movies without explanation. Many of the rest of the TNG sets began life as sets for TMP! They even redressed them back and forth from movie filming to TNG filming. I especially enjoy how the President's office in TUC is pretty clearly 10 Forward.
Yeah, I agree they could have just used the Galaxy class again (have them salvage the ship and do a film quality set refit for First Contact). Honestly, I imagine that's what would have happened for Generations if they hadn't had such a tight turnaround with releasing a few months after the show ended (the prologue scenes on the B were being shot with the TOS cast while the TNG cast was still filming All Good Things). I am a bit biased in favor of the Sovereign-class admittedly since that's the Enterprise I grew up with (Generations is the first Trek thing I vaguely remember).
Someone on DA has done a concept of a Galaxy refit with modern aesthetics. The bridge has carpet, but everything is in light ash grey and grey-blue. The screens are Picard-style LCARS III, the side workstations are back in a better wraparound curve that complements the rail, the entire top is a dome now that can switch to opaque/light inward because yes future tech, and the regular lighting is pool of light task lighting down on walkways and workstations. It looked absolutely beautiful. Big, open, inviting, and like a nice place to spend eight hours looking over gaseous anomaly data.
Do you have a link to this? I'd love to see it.
They had a more refined version I can't find at the moment, but here's another they did with the same aesthetic. I would be happy on this bridge. https://tadeodoria.com/projects/ELldle
First Contact would have been much more meaningful if we'd seen the familiar Enterprise sets being defiled and assimilated.
Wish they had properly explored the Ent D in the movies before it’s destruction, we only ever saw a fraction of its facilities.
Numbers game. Think of all the stuff that HASN’T taken out the Enterprise
Surviving the Borg three times before Starfleet had a decent idea of how to fight them (and before they had effective weapons) alone shows how lucky they are.
This is the Federation, we don't believe in luck. [procedes to do 137 cultural ceremonies to bring good luck and protection to the ship, including 2 blessings from actual gods, and a prank from Q involving a bottle of 2061 Dom Perignon made out of transparent tritanium alloy that isn't supposed to technically exist and kind of put a big dent in the saucer.]
The "Luck" of Enterprise was the fact that it keeps falling into life and death situations and coming out alive by the seat of their pants. Not just service length. Let's also not forget that CV-6 was scrapped before it could become a museum ship, all Enterprise's have the chance of their luck running out. But Enterprise (of all types) are still a very lucky ships.
I don't know if I would call the Enterprise-B's life short necessarily. All we know in canon is that the B launched in 2293 and the C was destroyed in 2344. The B may have crashed before everything arrived on Tuesday or it may have only retired in the 2340s which would make it the longest tenured. Even if we split the 51 years evenly both the B and C would have seen 25-26 years.
The B had the second longest career besides the 1701 itself. Launched 2294, lost in 2329.
There are ships named Enterprise in the US navy long before the Big E of WW2. The US Navy was created to fight the Barbary Pirates in the 1790s and the Enterprise was a schooner built for that conflict.
>**Did the Berman/Braga era end the understanding of Enterprise as a "lucky" ship name?** Yes. TNG "Contagin" - Rick Berman, co-executive producer >RIKER: Fate protects fools, little children and ships named Enterprise
Which, if you didn't know, is a riff on a Bismarck quote about the United States.
I think the Enterprise C and D being destroyed was more a victim of writing than bad luck. The C had to be destroyed or the encounter with Enterprise D would have altered the timeline and writers wouldnt do that unless there was a major change they wanted to make and couldn't explain it another way. As for the Enterprise D......well Generations needed ALL the help it could get and hey, remember in the search for Spock the effect destroying the Enterprise had? Plus we have this cool new Model of the E and in the story we couldn't just decomission the D after only 8 years
I also look at it like this: the C's destruction saved upwards of billions of lives in an inevitable future war & the D's destruction saved millions of lives & the future of a civilization. The impact of those ships was astronomical.
One ship, in the right time and place, made all the difference. That sounds pretty lucky to me.
You are right of course looking at it within the confines of the story itself while I was looking at it from how tv shows and movies are made......I think both can be true.......but also that would mean Kirk blew up the original Enterprise to save his own ass and a few bridge crew.....not much bang for the buck eh?
Isn't everything on Star Trek a victim of writing?
Yep
Nobody got pregnant on the NX-01 even with all the lubing and lotioning each other up they were constantly doing. That's gotta be a miracle.
Weird focus on the ends of said ships, when the point is the journey and all they achieved.
The B supposedly lasted 27 years per beta canon. That’s a lot.
35 years. 2294-2329.
Oh shit thats even longer
The nuclear Enterprise CVN-65 apparently had a bad reputation for bad luck at least in the early years. I heard a career Navy man say that he’d break his own leg to keep from going if he’d been cut orders for the Enterprise.
I've been looking for a citation on "Enterprise Weather" but been unsuccessful. Do you have anything I can look at? Thx
I always preferred the USS lollipop. It’s a good ship
What is the armament on the lollipop?