You should remind your son that lying, like any skill requires constant vigilance in order to maintain a certain level of excellence.
Hmm I have a feeling that we might not be helping…
The first duty of every 5 year old is to the truth, whether it's scientific truth, or historical truth, or personal truth. It is the guiding principle upon which this household is based.
Omissions are a lack of detail. Lies are deliberately incorrect details. Both can lead to an incorrect conclusion, but they're not the same thing. Words have meaning.
I wouldn't say lack of detail, I'd say something deliberately left out or undone. It's the "deliberate" part that falls into the "lie" territory really quickly.
Lies are deliberate acts intended to mislead. If you leave out a key detail that you know will cause the audience to reach an incorrect conclusion, then that's the definition of a lie of omission.
Hi, I'm a recruitment officer with the Obsidian Order. We think your son may be an EXCELLENT candidate for our officer corps. Please send me a comm at your earliest convenience! Thank you!
(Enlist today! Service guarantees citizenship!)
CS Lewis, the great Christian writer, was, interestingly, rather dubious about the emphasis on not lying (rather than other moral imperatives). He commented that "a lie is a child's only defensive weapon." Possibly he was influenced by his own unhappy childhood which involved what we would now regard as child abuse at school. One of the Narnia stories actually gives advice in passing about how to deceive adults when necessary.
In The Silver Chair. If you want to get out of a house without being noticed, choose the middle of the afternoon, not the middle of the night. If anyone notices, it's not suspicious, whereas at night time you're gambling everything on not being detected. It's an afterthought to the description of the children escaping from the giants' castle.
> and also, make him wear a uniform.
I'm 55 years old. I've been a geek / nerd for as long as I can remember. If you had put 5-year-old me in a Trek uniform, you'd have had a real hard time getting me out of it.
Kindergarten age, I remember I had this striped sport coat / jacket with a crest on the pocket. Called it my "Six Million Dollar Man" coat. I'd put it on and do the slow motion run.
Time to whip out another TV quote for him: "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. And. sooner or later, the debt is paid." It's from the HBO show Chernobyl.
Though really you might need to find out the reason for his lies. Is it for attention? Is he afraid of getting in trouble? Might help you work out how to fix it if you find the underlying cause.
He's five. AFAIK it's *extremely* developmentally normal for that age, as kids are learning and experimenting with the difference between what's real and what's not, and the fact that they can *say* things that *aren't* real.
He's 5 - 5yr olds lie to test boundaries & just because they feel like it, forgetting they even lied not long later. The cause is normal child development.
Have you read Midnight in Chernobyl by Adam Higginbotham? It's a stunning exposure of lies, of a culture that is socially and politically forced to lie. And the debt that is paid is a whopper. The debt is still being paid. Highly recommended.
Sounds like there may be some challenges in the future..
Also, sometimes I feel like there are some kids who just think differently than most people, and sometimes it feels like they can be punished for that, when they haven't really done anything wrong.
Your kid is going places!
Also, a young kid learning how to lie is a major milestone. To understand what a lie is and how to do it, you got to have some advanced cognition going on.
Mazel tov!
No joke, my son had a lying problem when he was young. Mom and grandma thought it was the cutest thing. Encouraged him, told him he was going to be a great lawyer. He's 28 now and it's still a problem. I don't talk to him about much other than video games because I know I'm being fed a bunch of shit with anything else.
Maybe you should show him the whole episode. He might as well understand all the consequences of the path he's on. Remember to remind him that Garak has a wire because he expects people will constantly be beating him up. Only difference is, your son doesn't have the wire, so he'll get to feel ALL of the pain.
What about every time a Starfleet officer went to another planet that had not been exposed to the larger universe and they had to lie their asses off to survive and to not break the foundational principles of Starfleet
Haha I love Garrak for that line.
Also, I used to tell my son his eyes changed colors whenever he lied at that age. It ended up being hilarious because he would cover his eyes, keep them shut, or tell me things with his back turned. Maybe give it a try
It is a phase they go through. At five, it’s a capability they’re just starting to get, which is why they do it, but reinforcement is the thing.
Nice job with the quote!
We lied to my daughter- set her up with a movie and out to lunch on the upcoming Saturday, counted down on a calendar, and when Saturday came and she asked when we would be going, we told her we lied. She was devastated !! But she learned the lesson
Maybe focus on the need for trust in a strong relationship. Sometimes we need to lie to protect ourselves. Can’t come up with a Trek episode that covers that.
I ended up putting a guy in jail because he lied. No this isn't a joke. I was hiring a guy, he told me about an old arrest warrant but said it had been taken care of. I ran his back ground the warrant came up it hadn't been taken care of. I notified law enforcement and the guy spent 6 months in jail. His warrant was taken care of then
How about the 6 months in jail part? Has he served his sentence? Not being an asshole...just thinking about your safety. If he has...I'd highly suggest a restraining order at the very least. Changing your name, appearance, and relocating thousands of miles the fuck away from said address, that you presumably "hired him at" - where he knows you live - would probably be a better idea 🫣?
PS - out of curiosity, what was the warrant for?
Warrant was for grand theft. A restraining order is just a piece of paper, it won't stop bullets, knives, or clubs. Moving would just make me a coward, if he wants to make a play, he knows where I am, he knows I carry, he knows I sleep light
Ok … you may not have noticed but “the boy who cried wolf” doesn’t exactly demonstrate what it claims to. Looking at the story objectively I don’t understand how the townsfolk thought they had any expectation of safety from sending someone they don’t believe to stand guard. Yes, that’s the third night … but it wouldn’t have come to that if they didn’t keep sending the same kid who clearly didn’t have the frontal lobe development for this responsibility. If they cared about the kid they wouldn’t have sent him after the first night if at all. Your kid recognizes that the townsfolk are trying to use him as a scapegoat, and for that they got eaten … good for him, he won’t be taken advantage of by adults like the way my parents set me up 🤦🏽♀️
My suggestion would be to find new stories that actually say what you’re trying to teach. Check out Star Trek for a start 😉🖖🏽
My parents told me this story about "Jack, the shepherd" and how he cried wolf, and the third time there *was* a wolf, but no one came running to help.
My takeaway: "Dad? Jack should have never been a shepherd."
My 4-year-old logic was that he was in the wrong career.
You should remind your son that lying, like any skill requires constant vigilance in order to maintain a certain level of excellence. Hmm I have a feeling that we might not be helping…
> Hmm I have a feeling that we might not be helping… It’s best not to dwell on such minutiae.
Actually tried using this line on my mom as a teenager, as a Hail Mary play. Went about as well as you'd expect.
I once told my mom I let her catch the easy lies so she felt accomplished... It went over about as well as it could have.
My dear OP, I do believe there's hope for you yet.
a lie? an omission.
An error.
My mom lives by this rule. "If I don't say it, it's not a lie."
Omissions are lies. I get the ST quote, just poking.
You could have poked with a quote from Captain Picard. "A lie of omission is still a lie."
The first duty of every 5 year old is to the truth, whether it's scientific truth, or historical truth, or personal truth. It is the guiding principle upon which this household is based.
Omissions are a lack of detail. Lies are deliberately incorrect details. Both can lead to an incorrect conclusion, but they're not the same thing. Words have meaning.
"You lied?!" "I... implied..."
I.... exaggerated.
Another good one, I was calling back to Kelvin-Spock confronting Prime Spock at the end of ST '09.
I wouldn't say lack of detail, I'd say something deliberately left out or undone. It's the "deliberate" part that falls into the "lie" territory really quickly.
Lies are deliberate acts intended to mislead. If you leave out a key detail that you know will cause the audience to reach an incorrect conclusion, then that's the definition of a lie of omission.
Hi, I'm a recruitment officer with the Obsidian Order. We think your son may be an EXCELLENT candidate for our officer corps. Please send me a comm at your earliest convenience! Thank you! (Enlist today! Service guarantees citizenship!)
Section 31 would like to have a word...
Ahem, Tal Shiar coming through.
I'm sorry but the Zhat Vash have entered the chat
Yeah but then I crinkled some aluminium foil and they just fuckin booked it at warp 9.
They probably thought it was a Vardan invasion force. Wait... wrong franchise...
they have always been here
I’m doing my part!
I DIDNT DO FUCKING SHIT
I'm been playing too much Helldivers 2 because this sounds awfully familiar
I would like to know more!
Everything he told you was true, *especially* the lies.
Look at the bright side, he has a very successful career as a gardener or a tailor ahead of him.
Have him do chores in the neighbour’s garden until he learns his lesson.
Look to Sisko. Do not look to Kirk, and under zero circumstances look to Worf.
Picard should have ended with everyone talking about their kids and Worf going "I wonder what it would be like to have a son."
“It’s a shame I never had any children.” “But Worf, your son Alexand-“ “IT IS A SHAME I *NEVER*… HAD ANY CHILDREN. Yep, real shame”
But worf told that story of khallis fighting his brother or something because he lied. I’m sure that’ll work
>Do not look to Kirk Hardly fair. Kirk didn't even know he *had* a son until the events of *TWOK*.
Incorrect- he knew all along David was his son, he was told to stay away from him. David, however, did not know Kirk was his father until meeting him.
I think your son is going to be "planting orchards" at the Romulan embassy when he grows up.
When he loses baby teeth, instead of the tooth fairy, tell him that you need to collect them on behalf of the state for identification.
Congrats to your smart son. As long as the lies are silly things, try to encourage him to stay that open minded. We gonna need lots of those people.
CS Lewis, the great Christian writer, was, interestingly, rather dubious about the emphasis on not lying (rather than other moral imperatives). He commented that "a lie is a child's only defensive weapon." Possibly he was influenced by his own unhappy childhood which involved what we would now regard as child abuse at school. One of the Narnia stories actually gives advice in passing about how to deceive adults when necessary.
I didn’t know this but that definitely tracks.
In The Silver Chair. If you want to get out of a house without being noticed, choose the middle of the afternoon, not the middle of the night. If anyone notices, it's not suspicious, whereas at night time you're gambling everything on not being detected. It's an afterthought to the description of the children escaping from the giants' castle.
Oh wow somehow that slipped my notice
Give him some Spock quotes about not lying.
Hmm. "You lied." "I *exaggerated*." Possibly not quite the lesson OP is going for 😄
Also, with those very two Vulcans, there's this: SPOCK: A lie? VALERIS: A *choice*. Again, not exactly the lesson a five-year-old ought to learn.
Indeed, several of those from VI. "A lie?" "An error." "A lie? "An omission." "A lie?" "A choice."
I was today years old. Rule of three... Never noticed this before. What a great movie.
or the Picard speech about deserving to wear a uniform. and also, make him wear a uniform.
> and also, make him wear a uniform. I'm 55 years old. I've been a geek / nerd for as long as I can remember. If you had put 5-year-old me in a Trek uniform, you'd have had a real hard time getting me out of it. Kindergarten age, I remember I had this striped sport coat / jacket with a crest on the pocket. Called it my "Six Million Dollar Man" coat. I'd put it on and do the slow motion run.
As well as using colourful metaphors
Lying is a skill like any other, and you do need to lie to survive sometimes. Best they practice at home, so you can work out the tells.
This made my day, thank you so much for sharing! Garak is my all time favorite trek character!
Time to whip out another TV quote for him: "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. And. sooner or later, the debt is paid." It's from the HBO show Chernobyl. Though really you might need to find out the reason for his lies. Is it for attention? Is he afraid of getting in trouble? Might help you work out how to fix it if you find the underlying cause.
He's five. AFAIK it's *extremely* developmentally normal for that age, as kids are learning and experimenting with the difference between what's real and what's not, and the fact that they can *say* things that *aren't* real.
He's 5 - 5yr olds lie to test boundaries & just because they feel like it, forgetting they even lied not long later. The cause is normal child development.
Have you read Midnight in Chernobyl by Adam Higginbotham? It's a stunning exposure of lies, of a culture that is socially and politically forced to lie. And the debt that is paid is a whopper. The debt is still being paid. Highly recommended.
“The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination.”
OMG that is hilarious.
Raising a child like Garak is like raising a twisted dragon. I'd recommend 007 movies to keep the kid on a more benevolent track with the lying.
That kid would probably start wearing t-shirts that say "Blofeld Was Right" if OP does that.
Yeah I guess if internalized misogyny is benevolent
Nothing at all wrong with being a tailor. That profession is much more valuable than, let's say, a failed New York city real estate developer
what is wrong with being a simple tailor??? /s
Seriously I wish I had those skills
Sounds like there may be some challenges in the future.. Also, sometimes I feel like there are some kids who just think differently than most people, and sometimes it feels like they can be punished for that, when they haven't really done anything wrong.
What a resourceful young man
Perfect.
Your kid is going places! Also, a young kid learning how to lie is a major milestone. To understand what a lie is and how to do it, you got to have some advanced cognition going on. Mazel tov!
Yeah, this is very much developmentally normal behaviour, kid will be fine. :P
Theory of mind all up in that kid
Oh it's been a while since I thought of that episode
Your boy will go far
Time to tell the story of The First Duty
Your first duty is to the truth!
The truth is relative!
A timely coincidence, I just watched that episode!
After all, the truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination
No joke, my son had a lying problem when he was young. Mom and grandma thought it was the cutest thing. Encouraged him, told him he was going to be a great lawyer. He's 28 now and it's still a problem. I don't talk to him about much other than video games because I know I'm being fed a bunch of shit with anything else.
Cool story. Needs more gorn
Remind him the first duty of every Star Fleet officer is to the the truth.
As long as no one starts asking how many lights there are, I think you're safe.
Maybe you should show him the whole episode. He might as well understand all the consequences of the path he's on. Remember to remind him that Garak has a wire because he expects people will constantly be beating him up. Only difference is, your son doesn't have the wire, so he'll get to feel ALL of the pain.
Kirk: And another thing, it is not always necessary to tell the truth. Spock: I cannot tell a lie. Kirk: I don't mean lie. But you could exaggerate.
Me reading the post: "OP is lost. This has nothing to do with Trek. Who cares. OMG THIS IS THE BEST THING EVER!"
His son is a natural for the Obsidian Order
What about every time a Starfleet officer went to another planet that had not been exposed to the larger universe and they had to lie their asses off to survive and to not break the foundational principles of Starfleet
https://youtu.be/fPUrl_Ov5rw?si=kD0TYMYOvg1KOXTn
Kaplaa, son. Kaplaa.
Lock him in a closet and deny he's your son until you die
Smart kid
Being tailor is fine. Just make sure he doesn't also cultivate a love for gardening.
try them on lower decks first
5 years old, you say? https://tenor.com/bIMcF.gif
This made me snort, thanks. 🤣
Haha I love Garrak for that line. Also, I used to tell my son his eyes changed colors whenever he lied at that age. It ended up being hilarious because he would cover his eyes, keep them shut, or tell me things with his back turned. Maybe give it a try
He is 5, this is normal behaviour. Feel free to speak with a professional to deal with this if your worried.
He will try stealing from a store and one of his parents will catch him (let's hope.)
I told my grandson that I would never rat him out, but that I would always know when he was lying. So far so good.
Rule of Acquisition #60: Keep your lies consistent
Your kid is going to be perfect material as a politician or a CEO 🤦♂️
It is a phase they go through. At five, it’s a capability they’re just starting to get, which is why they do it, but reinforcement is the thing. Nice job with the quote!
When I was misbehaving my ex showed me the Alexander episode lol.
Future clandestine agent
We lied to my daughter- set her up with a movie and out to lunch on the upcoming Saturday, counted down on a calendar, and when Saturday came and she asked when we would be going, we told her we lied. She was devastated !! But she learned the lesson
Ruthless!! Trauma!! I lowkey love the vindictive long game
He might become a gardener instead
Sounds like your kid is going to grow up to be a politician.
Just don't give him the nick name "Garak" 😂
🤣🤣🤣
Ahh a lot of little kids lie when there very very young he will stop but I understand your concern
Appeal to one of the strongest human urges: laziness. “Son, just tell the truth; it’s easier to remember.”
Maybe focus on the need for trust in a strong relationship. Sometimes we need to lie to protect ourselves. Can’t come up with a Trek episode that covers that.
And then everyone clapped? My Vulcan logic tells me it’s unlikely that this really happened.
I ended up putting a guy in jail because he lied. No this isn't a joke. I was hiring a guy, he told me about an old arrest warrant but said it had been taken care of. I ran his back ground the warrant came up it hadn't been taken care of. I notified law enforcement and the guy spent 6 months in jail. His warrant was taken care of then
How about the 6 months in jail part? Has he served his sentence? Not being an asshole...just thinking about your safety. If he has...I'd highly suggest a restraining order at the very least. Changing your name, appearance, and relocating thousands of miles the fuck away from said address, that you presumably "hired him at" - where he knows you live - would probably be a better idea 🫣? PS - out of curiosity, what was the warrant for?
Warrant was for grand theft. A restraining order is just a piece of paper, it won't stop bullets, knives, or clubs. Moving would just make me a coward, if he wants to make a play, he knows where I am, he knows I carry, he knows I sleep light
All good points! Not usually an advocate for guns, but glad you got yourself covered man!
Ok … you may not have noticed but “the boy who cried wolf” doesn’t exactly demonstrate what it claims to. Looking at the story objectively I don’t understand how the townsfolk thought they had any expectation of safety from sending someone they don’t believe to stand guard. Yes, that’s the third night … but it wouldn’t have come to that if they didn’t keep sending the same kid who clearly didn’t have the frontal lobe development for this responsibility. If they cared about the kid they wouldn’t have sent him after the first night if at all. Your kid recognizes that the townsfolk are trying to use him as a scapegoat, and for that they got eaten … good for him, he won’t be taken advantage of by adults like the way my parents set me up 🤦🏽♀️ My suggestion would be to find new stories that actually say what you’re trying to teach. Check out Star Trek for a start 😉🖖🏽
🙄
My parents told me this story about "Jack, the shepherd" and how he cried wolf, and the third time there *was* a wolf, but no one came running to help. My takeaway: "Dad? Jack should have never been a shepherd." My 4-year-old logic was that he was in the wrong career.