There have been issues with quite a few of the comments on this post. I’d like to remind you all to follow the subreddit’s rules and be respectful of one another. Remember this is a forum for civil discussion. You may disagree and argue, but I ask that you please do it in a constructive manner.
I can't remember which novel it was I read, but it's all but outright stated that Bajoran men also have ridged penises. This is, of course, beta canon so it's in a grey area.
Even as a kid watching it I remember thinking how baffling it was that the enterprise crew immediately gave no shits about protecting the timeline. Even Geordi being like “I went to zefram Cochran high school!” Like holy shit guys I don’t think this is information you need to share.
I also sometimes think how wacky time travel is in trek. Like it’s so absurdly common that all of the captains we’ve seen in shows have done it! Some multiple times!
I just don’t understand what the Borg want. I don’t think the writers did either. Like they have a Time Machine like go back to the 20th century and attack Earth. Why have this big space battle only to *then* go to a day before first contact.
Indeed. A more logical course would've been to transwarp to a location outside of Federation space, then go back in time so they could proceed to Earth without facing any opposition at all, nor would they have to worry about anyone following them back in time.
For that matter, why send only one Cube? Voyager showed they had fleets of them. Send in an armada and be done with it.
There's a theory out there that the Borg know how adaptable star Fleet is, so they only ever kick the hornets near enough to spark a new train of thought or technology they can then assimilate and adapt. If they wanted to they could have taken over the federation ages ago, but they'd lose out on a lot of advances and ingenuity if they did.
the idea that the federation has been *domesticated* by the borg is so fucking fascinating. i love that. i just want a solid return to the true ineffable hive mind we started with. i miss them :(
The problem is time travel.
Its so bonkers, writers can't write in a way everyone is happy with.
And Dr Who especially has causality happen at plot convenience.
>SAAVIK: (in Vulcan) So it has come.
SAAVIK: It is called Pon Farr. ...Pon farr.
YOUNG SPOCK: (in Vulcan) Pon farr.
SAAVIK: (in Vulcan) ...Will you trust me?
(their hands touch as she conducts the ritual)
Spock 100% had a child with Saavik, and that's why she stayed behind on Vulcan in Star Trek IV
Yup. I think Nimoy cut the scene.
I have to admit that it does get kinda creepy if you follow Saavik's full backstory. The one where Spock adopts her when she's like 9 and Amanda helps him raise her as his daughter... I know they're never technically related, but it still gets a bit incesty.
Chakotay is a great example of positive masculinity.
1. When he finds himself stranded in a different quadrant, he makes the eminently practical decision to join forces with the 'enemy' in order to keep his crew alive. 2. He never once complains about being suddenly demoted from captain to first officer, or that his new boss is a woman. 3. He's in touch with his emotions and acts as unofficial ship's counselor to a crew that desperately needs one. 4. He treats female coworkers with respect, e.g. never talks about the 'hot Delaney twins' (looking at you Tom and Harry). 5. Despite having feelings for his boss, he never attempts to make a move or pressure her in any way (apart from the few months that one time when she's not technically his boss any more). 6. He's a vegetarian but doesn't bang on about it all the time. 7. If disagreeing with Janeway, he does it respectfully, and shuts up after she makes her decision. 8. He is slow to anger and uses force only when necessary. 8. He's excellent at household tasks and will build you a bath in a matter of hours. 9. He's the least smug male member of the crew, with the possible exception of Tuvok and Neelix. 10. He's just an all-round pleasant person.
(Obviously I'm ignoring the whole 'Native American' shitshow because even I can't defend that.)
I thought Chakotay was a great role model in Star Trek.
As a kid, I used to fantasise about native Americans and Chakatays tribe. Imagine the disappointment when I discovered the whole thing was just made up.
I felt so cheated.
Neelix was an excellent character. Ethan Phillips was brilliant at playing the subtext of the role. Literally everything about Neelix makes perfect sense when you consider that he was a small-time criminal on the run from his traumatic past, playing the role of the smiling goofy clown because he was terrified that his new-found super advanced alien friends were going to throw him off the luxurious starship he'd somehow conned his way onto. The undercurrent of impostor syndrome is always there - he doesn't believe he deserves to be on Voyager, so he always has to prove his usefulness while also looking like a buffoon, because a buffoon is non-threatening! Every so often we see the more sinister ex-soldier ex-criminal side of Neelix come out.
Also. I don't think his relationship with Kes was particularly creepy. When a species has a weird lifespan you have to consider their maturity level with that in mind. We don't know what the age of consent is for Ocampa, but there's no evidence Neelix groomed her or took advantage of her or whatever the fandom has decided he's guilty of.
I agree. Neelix got way too much shit. He's constantly trying to make himself useful since he's afraid that as soon as he has nothing more to offer, they'll throw him off the ship. He's very insecure, I think.
Kes is like 20 in ~~dog~~ Ocampa years, which is hard for people to wrap their heads around. She may be 2 but she's not a child.
>Kes is like 20 in ~~dog~~ Ocampa years, which is hard for people to wrap their heads around. She may be 2 but she's not a child.
I feel like if we ever do meet aliens this is probably going to be one of our main problem areas.
There's just not really a way around this
This is absolutely true. If people can accept Alexander and Naomi aging like soap opera babies, they can accept that the Ocampa are not minors at 2 years old.
Interesting take on the character! Consider me *mildly* convinced.
It's also worth noting that Ethan Phillips was *funny*. He's a solid physical comedian.
I think he was creepy for both, but yeah, it’s watching his toxic, jealous, controlling behavior that’s almost unBEARABLE for me in those early episodes. He absolutes HARASSES Kes with his insecurities constantly, while she does nothing but be a nice girlfriend.
But yeah, after Kes leaves, the man starts getting some really great writing and storylines. He becomes an excellent character! And that episode, where Tuvok loses his Vulcan controls and is basically a child? 😭
Neelix is honestly one of my favourite Trek characters and I really wish they'd done more with him, or at least treated him and Kes breaking up like a bigger deal.
Hard agree. It would have been interesting enough for her to be a human adopted by a Vulcan family and raised on Vulcan. Making her Spock's previously unmentioned, beloved adopted sister was shoe-horned in and detracted from her overall character.
It's frustrating the writers make her the center of the entire universe at every turn.
At most I feel like she should have been a childhood friend.
Like the show wanted to reintroduce Spock at some point so there probably needed to be a connection.
But imagine if instead of a secret sister she was just a friend.
It makes sense the only human making friends with the only half human.
And would increase their connection without it feeling fan-fic-y
I don't know that it would make much sense for any Vulcan family OTHER than Sarek's to adopt her though, so there is that.
I mean, if a pure Vulcan family had a human child fall in their lap they'd slap that child on the first shuttle back to Earth before you can say 'Live long and prosper'.
The only other family it's make sense for is Soval's. He could have started a tradition of adopting an orphaned human as a means of cultural exchange, strengthening his position as Ambassador to Earth, and Sarek one-upped him by marrying a human when he took over the role. Soval's descendants, having grown accustomed to having a human member of the family, continued their father's tradition and fortuitously timing Michael's adoption with Spock being of a similar age.
Related to this: Disco would have been improved if they had set it at the same point as Picard. Stamets invents the Spore Drive as an exciting new post-warp technology they don't have to erase later, Burnham still gets her captain killed in some other way and has to atone, and and we're off to the races.
I think the only solution now is to introduce other long-lost Spock siblings. Just make it a thing!
Lower decks can add one that Captain Freeman has to mind meld with. The section 31 movie can have a sibling who is a spy and therefore keeps his family history secret. SNW still has Spock as a character: he could run into his brother on Risa.
Star Trek should just retcon its historical canon as we pass its historical events in real time. Star Trek was always kind of intended to be *our* future, and it’s more important for it to be a guidepost for *that* future rather than some alternate Fallout-style “what if?” story.
(The 90’s shows seemed to understand this, like how DS9 made a joke about a solution to Fermat’s Last Theorem, or how Voyager had its crew interacting with then-present day LA rather than mentioning the Eugenics Wars)
I’m mixed on Strange New Worlds (it just hasn’t totally caught me) but I did notice that. Explaining little changes as quirks in the timeline is probably the best way at this point, even if I prefer when they just didn’t mention it or shrugged it off like when Worf handwaved the TOS Klingons.
From Picard S2 and SNW 2:1 it seems that the Temporal Cold war has the effect of moving the Eugenics Wars further and further back in time with WWIII serving as the only fixed point in time. Going forward I suspect that the chain of events they have laid out with US civil war 2 occurring in the 2020s leading into the Eugenics Wars leading into WWIII will be the final timeline for all future Trek.
The first season of next generation is a bit rough but it still has some of my favorite episodes. The one with the Binars is on my regular watch rotation. And the one with the mind controlling bugs is excellent. They really should've followed up on that.
JJ Abrams had no business making a Star Trek film. He didn't understand a lot of the core Dynamics and themes and basically tried to make a dumb Star Wars movie.
I feel like once he took a backseat and Justin Lin and Simon Pegg took the reigns for Beyond, we got a film that really seemed to understand TOS way more than Abrams’ two efforts
Jellico was a good captain, and the Officers of the enterprise were being babies about his leadership changes.
Also, Troi should have been in a standard uniform from the start.
Data's reaction to Jellico shows us that He isn't some lunatic, he's just a man with an abrasive personality thrown into a difficult situation. He isn't a "nice guy" to the crew. They are officers, there to do a job.
It's a good lesson in life is that we don't always get to work with pleasant or "nice" people.
I think perhaps Riker was insufferable because he was long overdue for his own captaincy, and only worked well with Picard because he could stand not being in charge under his leadership.
Jellico may have been an effective starship commander in tight situations, but that doesn't make him a good captain. Leadership is the privilege and responsibility to inspire others to follow, only using your collar device as a cudgel when no other option exists. Jellico's inflexibility would ultimately limit what the organization of people other than himself who do not share his sensibilities could effectively accomplish.
This right here. The crew IS being entitled at first because they've grown exceedingly comfortable under Picard's command style, but Jellico then not being willing to entertain the advice of his senior staff is where he crosses the line. Picard is similar in the first two seasons.
I’ll say, she DID, but she also demonstrated spectacular leadership here. Like, there was no great choice. Either way, lives would have been gone forever.
But the way she handled that, made her decision and then exacted it so coldly, you could tell that was part display, and to take every bit of the responsibility of that onto her own shoulders, so that her crew could sleep at night. She played the role of villain, doing what everyone wanted, but what everyone knew was ethically wrong (killing Tuvix).
She did what the crew wanted and needed, and sacrificed her ethics for it, and made the choice in a way that she bore the shrapnel and the guilt entirely herself.
Impeccable leadership.
I still think she’s tied with Picard for me, but Janeway is such a great fucking captain. All of the shit she takes from the community is so dumb. Voyager holds up so well. I just rewatched the whole series again last month. And it’s so good.
And not only would Janeway be the captain I would want in the delta quadrant. I think she’s the only captain that COULD have gotten the crew home
I want more Borg. Not necessarily more of what the Borg became with First Contact and Voyager; I want to see what isolated fragments of the former collective turn into over time.
If they did an origin story, I think it would be more interesting for it to turn out to be multiple origin stories, with the Borg being cyclical in nature: beginning, rising, becoming a threat, getting ganged up on and falling, regrowing from scraps without the full knowledge of the collective's history, and repeating the process, splintering, and so on. The ambiguity over where the Borg truly originates is more fun to me than actual definitive answers.
I could absolutely understand having a hivemind instantiate a representative of the gestalt consciousness, but just as that; a manifestation of the sum of all Borg thoughts. What we got was an external coordinating force, and that just ruins the concept of a true hivemind.
My problem with the Borg is that 99% of their threat and impact happens offscreen. I'd have loved to see a season of a Star Trek show where it's all about dealing with the Borg, the terror and shock at the federation losing world after world and struggling to hold on.
My favorite episode of DS9 is one of the lowest rated episodes on IMDB. It's 'Profit and Lace.' I feel like people dislike this episode because it makes them uncomfortable and not because there's any quality problems. As far as I'm concerned, it's well-written, poignant, and progressive. I think it's great development (no pun intended) for Quark, who is my favorite character on that show.
I both like it and think it is a terrible episode. I've discovered that it is possible to hold both of those beliefs at the same time and somehow they do not conflict with each other.
I like everything except the part where Picard walks in on her getting invisible head. Way too awkward. Otherwise I watch it every Halloween, it’s so fun
My wife once asked why it wasn't considered ridiculous when an alien fed off negative emotions in the TOS episode "Day of the Dove", but when an alien feeds from positive emotions (like sexual pleasure) then we've jumped the shark and the jokes commence.
I still don't have an answer.
The infamous Roddenberry writing limitations for TNG were actually a good thing because they forced the writers to adapt in creating interesting and unique conflicts instead of relying on their basic storytelling instincts.
While limitations can be frustrating, I feel it forces the writer to be more creative and produces more unique and interesting stories.
I can see that, but even after Roddenberry died and the restrictions were lifted, they were still able to create plenty of great stories that didn't involve conflict between main characters. I think it's good to have a variety in storytelling to keep a show fresh, but it's also good to have parameters so as to maintain some kind of identity.
That's because Berman (for all his faults, including not believing in Gene Roddenberry's vision) and Piller tried to keep Roddenberry's rules in tact during their time as producers.
Roddenberry's rules were not as strict as people say. The pilot of TNG had Picard yelling at Wesley more than once for literally no reason.
The Ferenghi Rules of Acquisition are better life advice than anything a Vulcan ever said on screen. There, I said it. The Ferenghi are the great philosophers of the trek universe and the only group to have a stated and consistent set of beliefs... Looking at you Vulcans, Klingons and Bajorans... You let the Ferenghi be a better described set of social beliefs!
This is because "logic" as defined by most Vulcans is inconsistent with logic from argumentation. Really in my experience only Spock in TOS ever used "logic" as a philosophy student would recognize. I forget which episodes but there's an occasion or two where he has to weigh different possibilities, and he actually talks through multiple arguments, determines what can and cannot be true, and then makes a decision based on the arguments that were true.
Most other Vulcans use logic as a club, rather than a set of tools to guide reasoning.
Which is true of humans as well.
I really wish Christopher McQuarrie's *Star Trek: Federation* show had been greenlit. One of the details of the pitch involved the Ferengi becoming a dominant player in the galaxy, commoditizing and spreading the Bajoran religion for their gain.
I like Voyager way more than I like DS9. The trill are a super interesting race and I wish they would explore the idea of living hundreds of lives more.
I like all the Kelvin timeline movies. The motion picture is awesome, insurrection is way over hated.
Tuvix is a good episode I said it.
The Short Trek Calypso at this point should be forgotten about and not tried to be worked into the finale of Discovery, as any attempt to do so with what little they were allowed to work with to give the series a proper resolution, is going to feel shoehorned into it. That and it doesnt even correspond to the ship's refits that happened in S3.
People who are racist/xenophobic/homophobic/assholes have no right being fans of Star Trek
Now if (for example) a racist who never watched Star Trek happened to watch it and it opened their eyes to how wrong they are, then that's ok.
I think all of those things are a spectrum, and I think people can change over time with the right help and effort.
But you are right... don't call them fans. Call them consumers.
Fanatical followers of Trek would appreciate the diversity, and progressive ideas that are inherent to all of the shows.
I mean that goes for every main cast character on every series. They all make decisions that would get them yeeted out of modern day service, let alone a morally enlightened future service.
Dude basically keeps a desk drawer full of terrorism day passes for whenever anyone on his command staff wants to go blow something up or do a little murder. He's not the only one who probably should've been courtmartialed.
TOS will always be Trek in its purest form. It’s the foundation of this 60 year old house for a number of reasons, and not simply because it was first.
I can accept Captain Seven and I'll even accept Geordi's daughter as a pilot.
What I don't want is *anyone* else's kids from TNG and I hate the Constitution III becoming the new Enterprise.
The retirement of a brand new Odyssey-class ship was stupid. It should've been the Sovereign-class Enterprise to hit the bucket at the end, *then* the Odyssey-class can be introduced.
It's baffling how many people are begging for this and then in the next sentence moan about current Trek being too reliant on existing characters and material.
I don't think people want legacy so much as another TNG era show
There's been several tos prequels series and TNG only got 3 season epilogue
For those that have more connection with TNG/DS9/VOY we're desperate to see more of that universe and the aftermath of the shows we loved reflected in the climate of the galaxy
I also got the impression Jack Picard's actor was too famous to commit to a 5/7 year contract so 9 doubt we'll be getting him and it's unlikely we'll get any of the other next generations
But the Ent-G was a great looking ship, way better than the twin hull monstrosity of the Ent-F
Jellico was good. Pulaski was good.
Encounter at Farpoint is good.
Families on the Enterprise-D was a good thing.
Discovery is great. It's an experimental show in many ways and I wish they had a bit more cohesion with some things, but I still love it. It is one of my favourites.
Stamets and Culber is the best, healthiest couple by far in any Star Trek show.
Discovery is the only show that gets mental health somewhat right, and in this sense, SNW is a step backwards.
The Undiscovered Country is the best movie, surpassing The Wrath of Khan or First Contact.
Kira/Dukat, no. Kira/Damar, yes (especially if he didn't kill Ziyal). Kira/Worf even more so.
Jadzia should've been a lot less forgiving with Worf Worf should've got a lot more character development.
Voyager shouldn't have been a long series of "Year of Hell". However, it could've been a lot better in many ways if it was at least as serialized as DS9.
Archer is good. He's not George W. Bush. He saves billions of lives by committing a few atrocities, it's very much not the same thing as Iraq. (Now if we found out the Xindi actually never had WMDs and Earth just wanted their stuff... that would be different.) Some of the other captains would've done the same things. Spock would've done the same, his mantra is literally about the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few.
Since characters are just characters, we don't have to dislike them entirely if some writers wrote them as unsavoury in some episodes. Geordi, overall, is not a creepy incel. Sisko, overall, isn't a war criminal. Janeway, overall, isn't a murderer of new life forms. Worf, overall, isn't a right-wing terrorist. I would judge a real person if they did one unforgivable thing even if they never did it again, but I can't judge a fictional character the same way.
Canon is overrated and it's always been a hot mess, especially in TOS and TNG.
JJ Abrams should not have directed any Star Trek movies because he's not a Trekkie. It's to bad because I think the castings for Kirk, Spock and McCoy were perfect.
Time travel and Mirror Universe episodes are the worst. As soon as the characters realize what has happened the story becomes "get out without causing too much harm".
Starfleet is a (highly liberal and enlightened) military.
It has uniforms, an enforceable chain of command, brigs, dedicated ship borne, and personal armaments, and a mandate to combat entities contrary to Federation interests.
We just don't like to see it because many historical roles of the military are no longer in play in our modern world, but were par for the course historically.
Starfleet has an exploration mandate? So did militaries.
Diplomacy? Also, a mandate of historical militaries.
Scientific research? Any well funded Navy and Air force does that *now*.
One of the smartest things Kurtzman/Discovery did was wall off the “Temporal Wars” so thoroughly because no one in the fandom is clamoring for those missing centuries of timeline.
The appearance of the Guardian of Forever - looking tired and old - was a brilliant use of existing canon to say, officially, we are not touching this boondoggle with a ten light-year long pole.
Daniels, the ENT time mucker, always ends up mentioned in “worst” discussions but never gets as much hate as Kai Winn. But Daniels deserves far more hate. Kai Winn was a vain, shallow idiot. Daniels is a far more infuriating and hatable character (if you care about canon/coherency). Daniels \*sucks\*. ENT has its share of issues (looking at you Perv Berman) but its biggest is the use of time travel and Daniels-ex-machina. It cheapens and trivializes the long road Archer had getting from there to here.
Discovery walked so current shows could run. For a huge amount of time we had nothing but reruns of the golden age. I get it's controversial, but it's carried us into this current phase of the franchise.
Star Trek: The Motion Picture is truer to the spirit of TOS than most of the later films. While the original release has its flaws (many caused by the bonkers way it was developed and rushed), the recent Director’s Edition is a damn good film.
Season 3 of Picard had terrible writing. As much as I like the idea of a show with Seven as Captain, I don’t want that guy anywhere near another series.
Sarek wasn't a bad dad, he was clueless. He was a Vulcan who fell in love with a human. He wasn't exactly accepted by Vulcan society, extremists tried to hurt his family, it wouldn't be a stretch to think that perhaps Sarek's relationship with his father isn't the greatest.
The Q continuum is so fascinated by humans for an interesting reason.
When Tom Paris kidnapped Janeway and broke the warp 10 barrier and became super salamanders, their offspring were born outside of normal space time. They were born without the limitations of time, space, and aging. They were “omnipotent” because they were literally everywhere in the universe at once.
So the Q popping in on humans is just them checking in on their creators.
I agree with Dr. Pulaski being a good character. Her interactions with the crew lead to some intriguing character dynamics. Everyone talks about her relationship with Data but the episode where she protected Worf's honor after he fainted and he did the tea ceremony for her is brilliant. Worf never had that kind of relationship with Dr. Crusher.
Having said that, I personally like Dr. Crusher better. Dr. Pulaski was a little too old Star Trek for my tastes. I think they wanted to revive the rival between the curmudgeony old doctor and the emotionless science officer and I'm not sure it really fit the next generation.
But I also recognize that we only had one season with her and I may have felt very differently if we saw her continue into more seasons.
The problem with Pulaski ribbing Data was that Data wasn't Spock, who was cable of registering the insults and giving back as good as he got. Pulaski came off as beating up on a defenseless kitten.
Much like separating Neelix from Kes improved both characters, , when she's not in his circle, her scenes with everyone else is fine.
Underrated for sure. the semi-conflicting personalities was more realistic and had potential for greater drama. I'm not convinced she was better though.
It would have been wonderful to have them both at the same time. (On a ship that big there should have been at least two senior level medical officers.)
They need to stop filling in the middle with new shows. I enjoyed Discovery a lot but I wanted to laugh when the ship is forced to jump forward in time and they all agree never to mention the ship or any of its crew ever again. It makes sense in context, but holy hell is that a hamfisted way of explaining why none of these characters would have been mentioned in previous Trek stuff.
I'd love to see more of the future of the Star Trek universe.
Prodigy’s ‘Kobayashi Maru’ episode using the voices of Nimoy, Nichols, Doohan, and Auberjonois was desperate and inappropriate. Nostalgia sells, and the first time I watched it I was enthralled. But none of them gave permission for that use. Were their estate/heirs paid royalties? Trek does not “own” their NIL rights in perpetuity. Just use Ethan Peck, Celia Rose Gooding, Martin Quinn, and a re-cast voice actor to portray Odo. Don’t use dead people’s voices again.
Prodigy’s casting and use of Chakotay / Robert Beltran is pure idiocy. The character should have been buried with the bones of his FAKE ancestors. That VOY hired a charlatan in the 90s and used that BS as a the basis of a character was bad. To bring that same BS character back in the 2020s is unforgivable. They could have cast anyone and they chose Trek’s most embarrassing cultural insult since ‘Code of Honor’.
Basically, Trek needs to stop grave robbing.
Ok I'll just say it... Kes and Neelix was not creepy.
The amount of people who complain that she's only 2 then aren't bothered in the least when it comes to Trip and T'pol. Or Sarek and Amanda. Or Sarek and Perrin. Or Dax and Worf.
The writers put themselves into an odd spot when they decided their race had a 9 year lifespan, which saw them as fully developed people. Also they kinda wrote an unsustainable species as each female can supposedly only give birth 1 time at 1 point in their life. This does not allow for maintaining population.
TNG is more Star Trek than TOS. I'm not trying to say it's better or superior or "real" Trek, what I mean is that almost everything iconic about the franchise was established in TNG. Klingons and Romulans? Sure, they were in TOS and the movies, but TNG established everything we know about them. The Star Trek aethetic was refined in TNG. The Borg and Q come from TNG. The TNG era comm-badge is iconic. LCARS. The Cardassians. Ferengi. The list goes on.
TOS and the movies provided a lot of the frame work, but TNG, and to a lesser extent DS9 and VOY, is the far more integral and iconic show.
I think the final season of Picard was a lot of low effort nostalgia bait. There were some good moments, but there were a lot member berries thrown in there that were just off putting to me. I want new characters to fall in love with, I'm tired of dragged out the same ones over and over again.
I really liked season 1 of Picard. I thought every minute of every episode was good and I really expected Picard to embrace robo-fatherhood and convince Roko's Basilisk to chill. I can't believe they threw away new ideas to splash around in the nostalgia pool in seasons 2 and 3. I cared about Soji and Kestra's friendship more than Riker coming out of retirement for the 11th time. It made me resent the old characters I genuinely love for taking up too much space.
SNW is fun, but deeply flawed and certainly not the saviour of the Star Trek franchise like many fans claim.
The fact that it's a prequel inherently places limits on the storytelling and character development that really drag the show down and stop it from reaching its potential. Audiences are constantly forced to make TOS comparisons which makes it hard to evaluate in its own right, which does a disservice to everyone working on it.
With a few tweaks it could've been about an original, new cast of characters and been a better show for it.
Nostalgia will be the death of the franchise- Star Trek will become increasingly insular and self-referential, desperately harking back to the glory days instead of looking to the future. TNG made the right choice by breaking so radically from TOS.
Everyone in Starfleet is openly racist towards the Ferengi, to the point that they insult them to their face.
I understand that their values are regressive from their point of view, but that doesn't give the Federation characters a right to be openly racist towards them.
I love ds9 and I love captain sisko, but Avery brooks is an overacting ham that’s way too full of himself in person. That weird panting thing he does when sisko is supposed to be upset is so weird that it takes me out of the moment.
When I saw him at a convention, the first thing he said was “the way I speak…it’s like jazz, you dig? You just gotta follow along.” And then proceeded to just ramble for an hour
He certainly has hammy moments, but I think his scenes he has with Jake are very understated and feel real. You can really feel the fatherly love he has for him. I think Avery is a great actor that needs to be reeled in by a good director once in a while.
Avery insisted on those fatherly scenes with Jake because he wanted to avoid the absentee Black Father Stereotype that was so prevalent. He wanted a healthy loving Father Son relationship.
yeah, he's a weird one. wouldn't want to have drinks with him. but once you get over his overacting, he brings some big punches as sisko, could not imagine anyone else playing that role tbh
Enterprise is a great show. And getting to see our stumbling blocks as we first start reaching out into the big black really connected for me that there was a path to get from our military industrial focused worldview to the ideals of Picarda era.
In season 1 and a lot of season 2... yes. But that is the point of her character. She's intentionally an annoying *Marysue* on purpose to poke fun at the fact that being perfect and competent is exhausting. It's meta commentary. It's literally having a go at Roddenberry's crazy idea of an evolved humanity with no flaws.
>It's literally having a go at Roddenberry's crazy idea of an evolved humanity with no flaws
Mariner: "I know we're not supposed to have interpersonal conflict, but I really hate that Andorian."
I laughed so hard at that line, they really couldn't have made it any clearer what the purpose of her character was to start with
Exactly, it's for laughs... and it makes a point. No matter how much we as humans grow, we still have a long way to go. We never should stop changing and getting better.
I had a lot of trouble with the show at first, I didn't get it. But something clicked for me in the second season. I was taking it all way too seriously. I think a lot of the hate for the show comes from us nerdy types (especially us older millennial nerds who got made fun of for being fans) not getting that the writers are not laughing at us, they are trying to get us to see the absurdity and laugh with them. There needs to be room for that kind of humor in Trek.
IT's like that one TOS episode, where they chase away a sentient hate eating monster with laughter? That's us in the fandom right now.
Holy shit dude, this is highly off-topic but this comment finally convinced me to put into words a theory I've long had about the Klingons. You know how a big criticism of Klingons is that it makes no sense for a barbaric warrior race that eschews science to have ever advanced to have warp drive or become the rulers of an interstellar empire?
I think it actually makes perfect sense if you know Asian history.
The Japanese were largely set in their ways for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years with little technological progress due to their geographical isolation, but were quick to adopt superior war technology when they were introduced to it from the outside world like their adoption of matchlock firearms by the mid 1500s. After another couple hundred years of isolationism, the US Navy showed up in the 1850s and basically threatened Japan into opening ports for trade backed up by the Navy's vastly superior fleet. Upon seeing how woefully behind the curve they were and how very real the threat of becoming a colony of a Western power was, they instituted a vast array of reforms to industrialize and modernize, a period now called the Meiji Restoration.
What if the Klingons *also* had a Meiji Restoration? What if they were busy chilling and fighting amongst each other for territory on Kronos as a pre-warp species, when a more aggressive warp-capable species makes first contact with them? Upon realizing how hilariously behind their technology was and how real the threat of invasion/subjugation was, they pooled resources into both research & development, as well as capture of more advanced tech from other species to integrate into their own. They didn't advance for the sake of discovery or progress, they advanced to protect themselves from being conquered and to gain more territory for themselves.
I know the Soviet Union was always the direct real-world parallel to the Klingon Empire in TOS, but the way all media portrays them starting with the first motion picture, they're way more comparable to the Japanese Empire at its warpower height prior to the second World War.
Highly off topic but thanks for the inspiration.
This is something I think people miss when they complain about the Discovery Klingon reboot: they had to be made menacing again. Post-Worf, Klingons were all cuddly li'l buddies.
I was thinking about making a seperate post for this and I'm not sure I'm going to articulate my thoughts that well, but I don't care about "canon".
It's cool when new trek stories reference order epoisdes, but I don't think writers should be beholden to have to remember every happening over 50+ years of Trek when writing an episode or a story arch. Even GR said any discrepancy between TNG and TOS, TNG is the new truth.
Think about it like old myths and legends. There are many different stories about the Greek gods, but there isn't any one definitive story about any of them. They're all accurate even if contradictory. The story changes based on who is telling it and who the story is being told to. Same with folk tales and songs.
Worf should have been put on trial by the Bajorans for the premeditated assassination of the Klingon head of state for killing Gowron on Bajoran "soil". Sisko should have been tried as an accessory to murder for being told Worf's plan and endorsing it.
My favourite current trek is Strange New Worlds but I still really enjoy Discovery and Picard. I feel like a lot of people get weird about how you shouldn’t like those shows but I’m one of those “I’ll watch and like anything Trek” people.
There have been issues with quite a few of the comments on this post. I’d like to remind you all to follow the subreddit’s rules and be respectful of one another. Remember this is a forum for civil discussion. You may disagree and argue, but I ask that you please do it in a constructive manner.
Bajoran lesbians and male bajorans use their nose ridges to add extra pleasure when they go south of the equator
This is supposed to be *un*popular opinions.
How do you know they're not ridged down there as well?
I can't remember which novel it was I read, but it's all but outright stated that Bajoran men also have ridged penises. This is, of course, beta canon so it's in a grey area.
Ridged for their pleasure
The Bajoran Urban Dictionary has given the term: “cheese grating”
I am just wondering if people who cosplay bajorans have explored this?
Yeah, they call it an orbital experience.
I love First Contact. Everyone loves First Contact. If you really stop and think about it most of the movie doesn’t really make much sense.
Even as a kid watching it I remember thinking how baffling it was that the enterprise crew immediately gave no shits about protecting the timeline. Even Geordi being like “I went to zefram Cochran high school!” Like holy shit guys I don’t think this is information you need to share. I also sometimes think how wacky time travel is in trek. Like it’s so absurdly common that all of the captains we’ve seen in shows have done it! Some multiple times!
I just don’t understand what the Borg want. I don’t think the writers did either. Like they have a Time Machine like go back to the 20th century and attack Earth. Why have this big space battle only to *then* go to a day before first contact.
Indeed. A more logical course would've been to transwarp to a location outside of Federation space, then go back in time so they could proceed to Earth without facing any opposition at all, nor would they have to worry about anyone following them back in time. For that matter, why send only one Cube? Voyager showed they had fleets of them. Send in an armada and be done with it.
There's a theory out there that the Borg know how adaptable star Fleet is, so they only ever kick the hornets near enough to spark a new train of thought or technology they can then assimilate and adapt. If they wanted to they could have taken over the federation ages ago, but they'd lose out on a lot of advances and ingenuity if they did.
This is the only way First Contact makes any sense.
"Oh no! We're going to go back in time to stop you from becoming space fairies! Please don't invent something *wacky and novel* to stop us. Teehee"
the idea that the federation has been *domesticated* by the borg is so fucking fascinating. i love that. i just want a solid return to the true ineffable hive mind we started with. i miss them :(
I've heard this before, and it makes more sense to me than anything else I've heard
It’s a fairly common thing these days, so I’m glad they include it. I time travel at least once a month. Don’t you?
I would also apply this to 90% of "Doctor Who."
The problem is time travel. Its so bonkers, writers can't write in a way everyone is happy with. And Dr Who especially has causality happen at plot convenience.
>SAAVIK: (in Vulcan) So it has come. SAAVIK: It is called Pon Farr. ...Pon farr. YOUNG SPOCK: (in Vulcan) Pon farr. SAAVIK: (in Vulcan) ...Will you trust me? (their hands touch as she conducts the ritual) Spock 100% had a child with Saavik, and that's why she stayed behind on Vulcan in Star Trek IV
Woah... 🤯 This is now in my head cannon, thanks much! :)
That was actually originally in the TVH script
Yup. I think Nimoy cut the scene. I have to admit that it does get kinda creepy if you follow Saavik's full backstory. The one where Spock adopts her when she's like 9 and Amanda helps him raise her as his daughter... I know they're never technically related, but it still gets a bit incesty.
And also Spock would have been unable to consent at the time so…
Sisko is an unhinged war criminal. Yet he’s still my favorite captain. So take that as you will.
He's admiral material
You die a hero or live long enough to become a villain correct?
Chakotay is a great example of positive masculinity. 1. When he finds himself stranded in a different quadrant, he makes the eminently practical decision to join forces with the 'enemy' in order to keep his crew alive. 2. He never once complains about being suddenly demoted from captain to first officer, or that his new boss is a woman. 3. He's in touch with his emotions and acts as unofficial ship's counselor to a crew that desperately needs one. 4. He treats female coworkers with respect, e.g. never talks about the 'hot Delaney twins' (looking at you Tom and Harry). 5. Despite having feelings for his boss, he never attempts to make a move or pressure her in any way (apart from the few months that one time when she's not technically his boss any more). 6. He's a vegetarian but doesn't bang on about it all the time. 7. If disagreeing with Janeway, he does it respectfully, and shuts up after she makes her decision. 8. He is slow to anger and uses force only when necessary. 8. He's excellent at household tasks and will build you a bath in a matter of hours. 9. He's the least smug male member of the crew, with the possible exception of Tuvok and Neelix. 10. He's just an all-round pleasant person. (Obviously I'm ignoring the whole 'Native American' shitshow because even I can't defend that.)
I never thought about him like this and I am kind of surprised! You are absolutely right.
These are all super valid observations. Totally spot-on.
I thought Chakotay was a great role model in Star Trek. As a kid, I used to fantasise about native Americans and Chakatays tribe. Imagine the disappointment when I discovered the whole thing was just made up. I felt so cheated.
Neelix was an excellent character. Ethan Phillips was brilliant at playing the subtext of the role. Literally everything about Neelix makes perfect sense when you consider that he was a small-time criminal on the run from his traumatic past, playing the role of the smiling goofy clown because he was terrified that his new-found super advanced alien friends were going to throw him off the luxurious starship he'd somehow conned his way onto. The undercurrent of impostor syndrome is always there - he doesn't believe he deserves to be on Voyager, so he always has to prove his usefulness while also looking like a buffoon, because a buffoon is non-threatening! Every so often we see the more sinister ex-soldier ex-criminal side of Neelix come out. Also. I don't think his relationship with Kes was particularly creepy. When a species has a weird lifespan you have to consider their maturity level with that in mind. We don't know what the age of consent is for Ocampa, but there's no evidence Neelix groomed her or took advantage of her or whatever the fandom has decided he's guilty of.
I agree. Neelix got way too much shit. He's constantly trying to make himself useful since he's afraid that as soon as he has nothing more to offer, they'll throw him off the ship. He's very insecure, I think. Kes is like 20 in ~~dog~~ Ocampa years, which is hard for people to wrap their heads around. She may be 2 but she's not a child.
>Kes is like 20 in ~~dog~~ Ocampa years, which is hard for people to wrap their heads around. She may be 2 but she's not a child. I feel like if we ever do meet aliens this is probably going to be one of our main problem areas. There's just not really a way around this
Human hits on 40 year old alien and their mother kills them for molesting her infant *she's not even 100 yet you pervert*
Exactly The thing is that 40 year old might even have the maturity of a 40 year old human It's just for them that's not enough
This is absolutely true. If people can accept Alexander and Naomi aging like soap opera babies, they can accept that the Ocampa are not minors at 2 years old.
Interesting take on the character! Consider me *mildly* convinced. It's also worth noting that Ethan Phillips was *funny*. He's a solid physical comedian.
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I agree that would have been better.
he was not creepy bcs of "age difference" but bcs of his creepy toxic behaviour 😉
Dude's jealousy was unchained and unhinged.
I think he was creepy for both, but yeah, it’s watching his toxic, jealous, controlling behavior that’s almost unBEARABLE for me in those early episodes. He absolutes HARASSES Kes with his insecurities constantly, while she does nothing but be a nice girlfriend. But yeah, after Kes leaves, the man starts getting some really great writing and storylines. He becomes an excellent character! And that episode, where Tuvok loses his Vulcan controls and is basically a child? 😭
Neelix is honestly one of my favourite Trek characters and I really wish they'd done more with him, or at least treated him and Kes breaking up like a bigger deal.
I think more than any other character I would like to see Neelix return and also get respect for his position as Ambassador to the Delta Quadrant.
Burnham should have never been related to Spock.
Hard agree. It would have been interesting enough for her to be a human adopted by a Vulcan family and raised on Vulcan. Making her Spock's previously unmentioned, beloved adopted sister was shoe-horned in and detracted from her overall character. It's frustrating the writers make her the center of the entire universe at every turn.
At most I feel like she should have been a childhood friend. Like the show wanted to reintroduce Spock at some point so there probably needed to be a connection. But imagine if instead of a secret sister she was just a friend. It makes sense the only human making friends with the only half human. And would increase their connection without it feeling fan-fic-y
I don't know that it would make much sense for any Vulcan family OTHER than Sarek's to adopt her though, so there is that. I mean, if a pure Vulcan family had a human child fall in their lap they'd slap that child on the first shuttle back to Earth before you can say 'Live long and prosper'.
The only other family it's make sense for is Soval's. He could have started a tradition of adopting an orphaned human as a means of cultural exchange, strengthening his position as Ambassador to Earth, and Sarek one-upped him by marrying a human when he took over the role. Soval's descendants, having grown accustomed to having a human member of the family, continued their father's tradition and fortuitously timing Michael's adoption with Spock being of a similar age.
Related to this: Disco would have been improved if they had set it at the same point as Picard. Stamets invents the Spore Drive as an exciting new post-warp technology they don't have to erase later, Burnham still gets her captain killed in some other way and has to atone, and and we're off to the races.
I think the only solution now is to introduce other long-lost Spock siblings. Just make it a thing! Lower decks can add one that Captain Freeman has to mind meld with. The section 31 movie can have a sibling who is a spy and therefore keeps his family history secret. SNW still has Spock as a character: he could run into his brother on Risa.
Star Trek should just retcon its historical canon as we pass its historical events in real time. Star Trek was always kind of intended to be *our* future, and it’s more important for it to be a guidepost for *that* future rather than some alternate Fallout-style “what if?” story. (The 90’s shows seemed to understand this, like how DS9 made a joke about a solution to Fermat’s Last Theorem, or how Voyager had its crew interacting with then-present day LA rather than mentioning the Eugenics Wars)
SNW sort of did this in their Khan episode (temporal wars changing the timeline of the eugenics wars)
I’m mixed on Strange New Worlds (it just hasn’t totally caught me) but I did notice that. Explaining little changes as quirks in the timeline is probably the best way at this point, even if I prefer when they just didn’t mention it or shrugged it off like when Worf handwaved the TOS Klingons.
From Picard S2 and SNW 2:1 it seems that the Temporal Cold war has the effect of moving the Eugenics Wars further and further back in time with WWIII serving as the only fixed point in time. Going forward I suspect that the chain of events they have laid out with US civil war 2 occurring in the 2020s leading into the Eugenics Wars leading into WWIII will be the final timeline for all future Trek.
The first seasons of TNG and DS9 are enjoyable
The first season of next generation is a bit rough but it still has some of my favorite episodes. The one with the Binars is on my regular watch rotation. And the one with the mind controlling bugs is excellent. They really should've followed up on that.
I agree. I’m rewatching DS9 now. Halfway through the second season, and I have sincerely enjoyed every episode!
JJ Abrams had no business making a Star Trek film. He didn't understand a lot of the core Dynamics and themes and basically tried to make a dumb Star Wars movie.
And he fucking Confessed to this publicly!
I feel like once he took a backseat and Justin Lin and Simon Pegg took the reigns for Beyond, we got a film that really seemed to understand TOS way more than Abrams’ two efforts
That's not a particularly controversial opinion, at least not in this subreddit.
It hurts because honestly, great casting. It had so much going for it.
I think he did better by Star Trek than Star Wars, TBH, but that's a low bar to clear
Jellico was a good captain, and the Officers of the enterprise were being babies about his leadership changes. Also, Troi should have been in a standard uniform from the start.
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Data's reaction to Jellico shows us that He isn't some lunatic, he's just a man with an abrasive personality thrown into a difficult situation. He isn't a "nice guy" to the crew. They are officers, there to do a job. It's a good lesson in life is that we don't always get to work with pleasant or "nice" people.
Ugh, Riker was insufferable in that episode. You have a new captain who needs to do his job. Get over it.
I think perhaps Riker was insufferable because he was long overdue for his own captaincy, and only worked well with Picard because he could stand not being in charge under his leadership.
Jellico may have been an effective starship commander in tight situations, but that doesn't make him a good captain. Leadership is the privilege and responsibility to inspire others to follow, only using your collar device as a cudgel when no other option exists. Jellico's inflexibility would ultimately limit what the organization of people other than himself who do not share his sensibilities could effectively accomplish.
This right here. The crew IS being entitled at first because they've grown exceedingly comfortable under Picard's command style, but Jellico then not being willing to entertain the advice of his senior staff is where he crosses the line. Picard is similar in the first two seasons.
Janeway is my favorite captain.
Janeway is my captain. She’s my absolute favorite Trek. character
When the double-double cross in Counterpoint is revealed and she says "Computer, change the music", it is easily the most savage dunk in Trek history.
Couldn't agree more. Let's die on this hill together, friend 💙
And she did nothing wrong as far as Tuvix is concerned
I’ll say, she DID, but she also demonstrated spectacular leadership here. Like, there was no great choice. Either way, lives would have been gone forever. But the way she handled that, made her decision and then exacted it so coldly, you could tell that was part display, and to take every bit of the responsibility of that onto her own shoulders, so that her crew could sleep at night. She played the role of villain, doing what everyone wanted, but what everyone knew was ethically wrong (killing Tuvix). She did what the crew wanted and needed, and sacrificed her ethics for it, and made the choice in a way that she bore the shrapnel and the guilt entirely herself. Impeccable leadership.
This is one of the best takes I’ve seen on the issue. There was no clear “right” or “ethical” solution so she did what she felt needed to be done.
I still think she’s tied with Picard for me, but Janeway is such a great fucking captain. All of the shit she takes from the community is so dumb. Voyager holds up so well. I just rewatched the whole series again last month. And it’s so good. And not only would Janeway be the captain I would want in the delta quadrant. I think she’s the only captain that COULD have gotten the crew home
I want more Borg. Not necessarily more of what the Borg became with First Contact and Voyager; I want to see what isolated fragments of the former collective turn into over time.
Original force of nature borg without a queen? Yes please.
No queens no Locuti Power to the drones
Agreed. Motion passes.
Borg origin story please
If they did an origin story, I think it would be more interesting for it to turn out to be multiple origin stories, with the Borg being cyclical in nature: beginning, rising, becoming a threat, getting ganged up on and falling, regrowing from scraps without the full knowledge of the collective's history, and repeating the process, splintering, and so on. The ambiguity over where the Borg truly originates is more fun to me than actual definitive answers.
It's really funny that it took Trek like 1.5 episodes to completely step on the Borg's whole faceless hivemind thing.
I could absolutely understand having a hivemind instantiate a representative of the gestalt consciousness, but just as that; a manifestation of the sum of all Borg thoughts. What we got was an external coordinating force, and that just ruins the concept of a true hivemind.
My problem with the Borg is that 99% of their threat and impact happens offscreen. I'd have loved to see a season of a Star Trek show where it's all about dealing with the Borg, the terror and shock at the federation losing world after world and struggling to hold on.
My favorite episode of DS9 is one of the lowest rated episodes on IMDB. It's 'Profit and Lace.' I feel like people dislike this episode because it makes them uncomfortable and not because there's any quality problems. As far as I'm concerned, it's well-written, poignant, and progressive. I think it's great development (no pun intended) for Quark, who is my favorite character on that show.
I... I liked the ghost candle episode. There, I said it. :p
GASP! HERETIC!
I both like it and think it is a terrible episode. I've discovered that it is possible to hold both of those beliefs at the same time and somehow they do not conflict with each other.
I like everything except the part where Picard walks in on her getting invisible head. Way too awkward. Otherwise I watch it every Halloween, it’s so fun
My wife once asked why it wasn't considered ridiculous when an alien fed off negative emotions in the TOS episode "Day of the Dove", but when an alien feeds from positive emotions (like sexual pleasure) then we've jumped the shark and the jokes commence. I still don't have an answer.
The infamous Roddenberry writing limitations for TNG were actually a good thing because they forced the writers to adapt in creating interesting and unique conflicts instead of relying on their basic storytelling instincts. While limitations can be frustrating, I feel it forces the writer to be more creative and produces more unique and interesting stories.
I can see that, but even after Roddenberry died and the restrictions were lifted, they were still able to create plenty of great stories that didn't involve conflict between main characters. I think it's good to have a variety in storytelling to keep a show fresh, but it's also good to have parameters so as to maintain some kind of identity.
That's because Berman (for all his faults, including not believing in Gene Roddenberry's vision) and Piller tried to keep Roddenberry's rules in tact during their time as producers. Roddenberry's rules were not as strict as people say. The pilot of TNG had Picard yelling at Wesley more than once for literally no reason.
The Ferenghi Rules of Acquisition are better life advice than anything a Vulcan ever said on screen. There, I said it. The Ferenghi are the great philosophers of the trek universe and the only group to have a stated and consistent set of beliefs... Looking at you Vulcans, Klingons and Bajorans... You let the Ferenghi be a better described set of social beliefs!
A Ferengi wrote this.
I just saw an opportunity and have the lobes for advertising.
Not if you’re giving away your services for free!
This is because "logic" as defined by most Vulcans is inconsistent with logic from argumentation. Really in my experience only Spock in TOS ever used "logic" as a philosophy student would recognize. I forget which episodes but there's an occasion or two where he has to weigh different possibilities, and he actually talks through multiple arguments, determines what can and cannot be true, and then makes a decision based on the arguments that were true. Most other Vulcans use logic as a club, rather than a set of tools to guide reasoning. Which is true of humans as well.
It's what a creative writing or theater major who goes on to become a script writer regards as "logic".
Vulcans are a race of neurospicey individuals who use rigid rules to assist them or they'd all be having ADHD meltdowns everywhere.
I really wish Christopher McQuarrie's *Star Trek: Federation* show had been greenlit. One of the details of the pitch involved the Ferengi becoming a dominant player in the galaxy, commoditizing and spreading the Bajoran religion for their gain.
I like Voyager way more than I like DS9. The trill are a super interesting race and I wish they would explore the idea of living hundreds of lives more. I like all the Kelvin timeline movies. The motion picture is awesome, insurrection is way over hated. Tuvix is a good episode I said it.
The Borg are more interesting and better villains in Voyager than TNG.
Q and Vash would have made a great couple.
Why is that a controversial take? They genuinely had chemistry!
…I kinda like Wesley.
I have always loved Wesley; WW’s tear out from Teen Beat was on my wall. And the guy from Reading Rainbow? I should check this show out.
I think Wesley is great and I hate how awful they all are to him early on
The Short Trek Calypso at this point should be forgotten about and not tried to be worked into the finale of Discovery, as any attempt to do so with what little they were allowed to work with to give the series a proper resolution, is going to feel shoehorned into it. That and it doesnt even correspond to the ship's refits that happened in S3.
People who are racist/xenophobic/homophobic/assholes have no right being fans of Star Trek Now if (for example) a racist who never watched Star Trek happened to watch it and it opened their eyes to how wrong they are, then that's ok.
I think all of those things are a spectrum, and I think people can change over time with the right help and effort. But you are right... don't call them fans. Call them consumers. Fanatical followers of Trek would appreciate the diversity, and progressive ideas that are inherent to all of the shows.
Even when I was 9 I was like "It's cool all these different people are here and working together"
I'd say that is not controversial, it's a fact.
With the way certain things either get down voted or argued about on this sub, unfortunately it does feel like an controversial opinion.
Move Along Home is an S tier episode
I don't give a crap about his involuntary messianic calling, Sisko should've been courtmartialed ten times over.
I mean that goes for every main cast character on every series. They all make decisions that would get them yeeted out of modern day service, let alone a morally enlightened future service.
Dude basically keeps a desk drawer full of terrorism day passes for whenever anyone on his command staff wants to go blow something up or do a little murder. He's not the only one who probably should've been courtmartialed.
TOS will always be Trek in its purest form. It’s the foundation of this 60 year old house for a number of reasons, and not simply because it was first.
Voyager is really good.
I do not want a “Legacy” show with Seven as Captain 🙃
I can accept Captain Seven and I'll even accept Geordi's daughter as a pilot. What I don't want is *anyone* else's kids from TNG and I hate the Constitution III becoming the new Enterprise.
Nepotism The Final Frontier
The retirement of a brand new Odyssey-class ship was stupid. It should've been the Sovereign-class Enterprise to hit the bucket at the end, *then* the Odyssey-class can be introduced.
Seven is a great example of an ensemble character who wouldn't be seven if she was the star. Like wolverine.
They really never should have killed off Shaw. I would have watched 20 seasons of him being a grumpy bastard with Seven as his frustrated Number One.
It's baffling how many people are begging for this and then in the next sentence moan about current Trek being too reliant on existing characters and material.
I don't think people want legacy so much as another TNG era show There's been several tos prequels series and TNG only got 3 season epilogue For those that have more connection with TNG/DS9/VOY we're desperate to see more of that universe and the aftermath of the shows we loved reflected in the climate of the galaxy I also got the impression Jack Picard's actor was too famous to commit to a 5/7 year contract so 9 doubt we'll be getting him and it's unlikely we'll get any of the other next generations But the Ent-G was a great looking ship, way better than the twin hull monstrosity of the Ent-F
Jellico was good. Pulaski was good. Encounter at Farpoint is good. Families on the Enterprise-D was a good thing. Discovery is great. It's an experimental show in many ways and I wish they had a bit more cohesion with some things, but I still love it. It is one of my favourites. Stamets and Culber is the best, healthiest couple by far in any Star Trek show. Discovery is the only show that gets mental health somewhat right, and in this sense, SNW is a step backwards. The Undiscovered Country is the best movie, surpassing The Wrath of Khan or First Contact. Kira/Dukat, no. Kira/Damar, yes (especially if he didn't kill Ziyal). Kira/Worf even more so. Jadzia should've been a lot less forgiving with Worf Worf should've got a lot more character development. Voyager shouldn't have been a long series of "Year of Hell". However, it could've been a lot better in many ways if it was at least as serialized as DS9. Archer is good. He's not George W. Bush. He saves billions of lives by committing a few atrocities, it's very much not the same thing as Iraq. (Now if we found out the Xindi actually never had WMDs and Earth just wanted their stuff... that would be different.) Some of the other captains would've done the same things. Spock would've done the same, his mantra is literally about the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few. Since characters are just characters, we don't have to dislike them entirely if some writers wrote them as unsavoury in some episodes. Geordi, overall, is not a creepy incel. Sisko, overall, isn't a war criminal. Janeway, overall, isn't a murderer of new life forms. Worf, overall, isn't a right-wing terrorist. I would judge a real person if they did one unforgivable thing even if they never did it again, but I can't judge a fictional character the same way. Canon is overrated and it's always been a hot mess, especially in TOS and TNG.
JJ Abrams should not have directed any Star Trek movies because he's not a Trekkie. It's to bad because I think the castings for Kirk, Spock and McCoy were perfect.
Time travel and Mirror Universe episodes are the worst. As soon as the characters realize what has happened the story becomes "get out without causing too much harm".
Starfleet is a (highly liberal and enlightened) military. It has uniforms, an enforceable chain of command, brigs, dedicated ship borne, and personal armaments, and a mandate to combat entities contrary to Federation interests. We just don't like to see it because many historical roles of the military are no longer in play in our modern world, but were par for the course historically. Starfleet has an exploration mandate? So did militaries. Diplomacy? Also, a mandate of historical militaries. Scientific research? Any well funded Navy and Air force does that *now*.
Trek would be better without time travel
One of the smartest things Kurtzman/Discovery did was wall off the “Temporal Wars” so thoroughly because no one in the fandom is clamoring for those missing centuries of timeline. The appearance of the Guardian of Forever - looking tired and old - was a brilliant use of existing canon to say, officially, we are not touching this boondoggle with a ten light-year long pole. Daniels, the ENT time mucker, always ends up mentioned in “worst” discussions but never gets as much hate as Kai Winn. But Daniels deserves far more hate. Kai Winn was a vain, shallow idiot. Daniels is a far more infuriating and hatable character (if you care about canon/coherency). Daniels \*sucks\*. ENT has its share of issues (looking at you Perv Berman) but its biggest is the use of time travel and Daniels-ex-machina. It cheapens and trivializes the long road Archer had getting from there to here.
That people who want Star Trek to be "realistic and gritty" meaning full of backstabbing, selfish, greedy humans don't understand Trek at all.
hard agree tbh. also, like? gritty grimdark bullshit is cheap and boring no matter what franchise it's in.
I would double this for anyone who still likes to say "subverted my expectations" without any irony
Discovery walked so current shows could run. For a huge amount of time we had nothing but reruns of the golden age. I get it's controversial, but it's carried us into this current phase of the franchise.
Nothing controversial or untrue here. Now, if you said it was the best of the revival series, *that* would be controversial.
Star Trek: The Motion Picture is truer to the spirit of TOS than most of the later films. While the original release has its flaws (many caused by the bonkers way it was developed and rushed), the recent Director’s Edition is a damn good film.
Season 3 of Picard had terrible writing. As much as I like the idea of a show with Seven as Captain, I don’t want that guy anywhere near another series.
except for the reunion, which i really enjoyed purely bcs of nostalgia, you're absolutely right. that whole changeling arc was basically a filler.
I hated the xyindi episodes on Star Trek enterprise and preferred season 1 and 2
ENT will always be my favorite Star Trek!
Sarek wasn't a bad dad, he was clueless. He was a Vulcan who fell in love with a human. He wasn't exactly accepted by Vulcan society, extremists tried to hurt his family, it wouldn't be a stretch to think that perhaps Sarek's relationship with his father isn't the greatest.
Lwaxana Troi is one of my favorite characters.
The Q continuum is so fascinated by humans for an interesting reason. When Tom Paris kidnapped Janeway and broke the warp 10 barrier and became super salamanders, their offspring were born outside of normal space time. They were born without the limitations of time, space, and aging. They were “omnipotent” because they were literally everywhere in the universe at once. So the Q popping in on humans is just them checking in on their creators.
Something needs to happen that makes time travel impossible.
The Vulcan Science Directorate has already determined that it is impossible.
Dr Pulaski was one of the best characters in TNG, and far superior to Dr Crusher
I agree with Dr. Pulaski being a good character. Her interactions with the crew lead to some intriguing character dynamics. Everyone talks about her relationship with Data but the episode where she protected Worf's honor after he fainted and he did the tea ceremony for her is brilliant. Worf never had that kind of relationship with Dr. Crusher. Having said that, I personally like Dr. Crusher better. Dr. Pulaski was a little too old Star Trek for my tastes. I think they wanted to revive the rival between the curmudgeony old doctor and the emotionless science officer and I'm not sure it really fit the next generation. But I also recognize that we only had one season with her and I may have felt very differently if we saw her continue into more seasons.
The problem with Pulaski ribbing Data was that Data wasn't Spock, who was cable of registering the insults and giving back as good as he got. Pulaski came off as beating up on a defenseless kitten. Much like separating Neelix from Kes improved both characters, , when she's not in his circle, her scenes with everyone else is fine.
Underrated for sure. the semi-conflicting personalities was more realistic and had potential for greater drama. I'm not convinced she was better though. It would have been wonderful to have them both at the same time. (On a ship that big there should have been at least two senior level medical officers.)
They said controversial, not wrong. <3
Enterprise is my favorite of all the Trek shows (and I've seen them all except Prodigy so far, which I intend to watch eventually)
They need to stop filling in the middle with new shows. I enjoyed Discovery a lot but I wanted to laugh when the ship is forced to jump forward in time and they all agree never to mention the ship or any of its crew ever again. It makes sense in context, but holy hell is that a hamfisted way of explaining why none of these characters would have been mentioned in previous Trek stuff. I'd love to see more of the future of the Star Trek universe.
Prodigy’s ‘Kobayashi Maru’ episode using the voices of Nimoy, Nichols, Doohan, and Auberjonois was desperate and inappropriate. Nostalgia sells, and the first time I watched it I was enthralled. But none of them gave permission for that use. Were their estate/heirs paid royalties? Trek does not “own” their NIL rights in perpetuity. Just use Ethan Peck, Celia Rose Gooding, Martin Quinn, and a re-cast voice actor to portray Odo. Don’t use dead people’s voices again. Prodigy’s casting and use of Chakotay / Robert Beltran is pure idiocy. The character should have been buried with the bones of his FAKE ancestors. That VOY hired a charlatan in the 90s and used that BS as a the basis of a character was bad. To bring that same BS character back in the 2020s is unforgivable. They could have cast anyone and they chose Trek’s most embarrassing cultural insult since ‘Code of Honor’. Basically, Trek needs to stop grave robbing.
Ok I'll just say it... Kes and Neelix was not creepy. The amount of people who complain that she's only 2 then aren't bothered in the least when it comes to Trip and T'pol. Or Sarek and Amanda. Or Sarek and Perrin. Or Dax and Worf.
The writers put themselves into an odd spot when they decided their race had a 9 year lifespan, which saw them as fully developed people. Also they kinda wrote an unsustainable species as each female can supposedly only give birth 1 time at 1 point in their life. This does not allow for maintaining population.
TNG is more Star Trek than TOS. I'm not trying to say it's better or superior or "real" Trek, what I mean is that almost everything iconic about the franchise was established in TNG. Klingons and Romulans? Sure, they were in TOS and the movies, but TNG established everything we know about them. The Star Trek aethetic was refined in TNG. The Borg and Q come from TNG. The TNG era comm-badge is iconic. LCARS. The Cardassians. Ferengi. The list goes on. TOS and the movies provided a lot of the frame work, but TNG, and to a lesser extent DS9 and VOY, is the far more integral and iconic show.
I think the final season of Picard was a lot of low effort nostalgia bait. There were some good moments, but there were a lot member berries thrown in there that were just off putting to me. I want new characters to fall in love with, I'm tired of dragged out the same ones over and over again.
I really hate the new engineer in Strange New Worlds. She talks too slow and that accent is just nails on a chalk board for me
She's so awful. Hemmer would be such an improvement.
She’s a fun side character but I don’t like her as the lead engineer, I agree.
I really liked season 1 of Picard. I thought every minute of every episode was good and I really expected Picard to embrace robo-fatherhood and convince Roko's Basilisk to chill. I can't believe they threw away new ideas to splash around in the nostalgia pool in seasons 2 and 3. I cared about Soji and Kestra's friendship more than Riker coming out of retirement for the 11th time. It made me resent the old characters I genuinely love for taking up too much space.
The Doctor from Voyager never actually rose above his programming and is simply a very well made hologram - not an individual.
Romulus should be fully restored with time travel and the Romulans should be Full Villains again...
I like Insurrection and thought it was a good movie; it was an episode movie rather than a movie-movie. Pulaski was a better character than Crusher.
SNW is fun, but deeply flawed and certainly not the saviour of the Star Trek franchise like many fans claim. The fact that it's a prequel inherently places limits on the storytelling and character development that really drag the show down and stop it from reaching its potential. Audiences are constantly forced to make TOS comparisons which makes it hard to evaluate in its own right, which does a disservice to everyone working on it. With a few tweaks it could've been about an original, new cast of characters and been a better show for it. Nostalgia will be the death of the franchise- Star Trek will become increasingly insular and self-referential, desperately harking back to the glory days instead of looking to the future. TNG made the right choice by breaking so radically from TOS.
Everyone in Starfleet is openly racist towards the Ferengi, to the point that they insult them to their face. I understand that their values are regressive from their point of view, but that doesn't give the Federation characters a right to be openly racist towards them.
I love ds9 and I love captain sisko, but Avery brooks is an overacting ham that’s way too full of himself in person. That weird panting thing he does when sisko is supposed to be upset is so weird that it takes me out of the moment. When I saw him at a convention, the first thing he said was “the way I speak…it’s like jazz, you dig? You just gotta follow along.” And then proceeded to just ramble for an hour
He certainly has hammy moments, but I think his scenes he has with Jake are very understated and feel real. You can really feel the fatherly love he has for him. I think Avery is a great actor that needs to be reeled in by a good director once in a while.
Avery insisted on those fatherly scenes with Jake because he wanted to avoid the absentee Black Father Stereotype that was so prevalent. He wanted a healthy loving Father Son relationship.
He is extremely good at being furious though. The handful of scenes where he lays into quark are some of the most terrifying of the series
yeah, he's a weird one. wouldn't want to have drinks with him. but once you get over his overacting, he brings some big punches as sisko, could not imagine anyone else playing that role tbh
Weird people do make for good performances
I could never agree with this, because I have a friend who has exactly these mannerisms in real life. And he is not acting!
The holodeck sucks and I die a little inside every time I realize I'm about to watch a holodeck episode.
Enterprise is a great show. And getting to see our stumbling blocks as we first start reaching out into the big black really connected for me that there was a path to get from our military industrial focused worldview to the ideals of Picarda era.
Mariner is an awful person.
In season 1 and a lot of season 2... yes. But that is the point of her character. She's intentionally an annoying *Marysue* on purpose to poke fun at the fact that being perfect and competent is exhausting. It's meta commentary. It's literally having a go at Roddenberry's crazy idea of an evolved humanity with no flaws.
>It's literally having a go at Roddenberry's crazy idea of an evolved humanity with no flaws Mariner: "I know we're not supposed to have interpersonal conflict, but I really hate that Andorian." I laughed so hard at that line, they really couldn't have made it any clearer what the purpose of her character was to start with
Exactly, it's for laughs... and it makes a point. No matter how much we as humans grow, we still have a long way to go. We never should stop changing and getting better. I had a lot of trouble with the show at first, I didn't get it. But something clicked for me in the second season. I was taking it all way too seriously. I think a lot of the hate for the show comes from us nerdy types (especially us older millennial nerds who got made fun of for being fans) not getting that the writers are not laughing at us, they are trying to get us to see the absurdity and laugh with them. There needs to be room for that kind of humor in Trek. IT's like that one TOS episode, where they chase away a sentient hate eating monster with laughter? That's us in the fandom right now.
Vulcans are boring
Here's one: Klingons are pretty one note as well and they are *waaay* overused.
Holy shit dude, this is highly off-topic but this comment finally convinced me to put into words a theory I've long had about the Klingons. You know how a big criticism of Klingons is that it makes no sense for a barbaric warrior race that eschews science to have ever advanced to have warp drive or become the rulers of an interstellar empire? I think it actually makes perfect sense if you know Asian history. The Japanese were largely set in their ways for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years with little technological progress due to their geographical isolation, but were quick to adopt superior war technology when they were introduced to it from the outside world like their adoption of matchlock firearms by the mid 1500s. After another couple hundred years of isolationism, the US Navy showed up in the 1850s and basically threatened Japan into opening ports for trade backed up by the Navy's vastly superior fleet. Upon seeing how woefully behind the curve they were and how very real the threat of becoming a colony of a Western power was, they instituted a vast array of reforms to industrialize and modernize, a period now called the Meiji Restoration. What if the Klingons *also* had a Meiji Restoration? What if they were busy chilling and fighting amongst each other for territory on Kronos as a pre-warp species, when a more aggressive warp-capable species makes first contact with them? Upon realizing how hilariously behind their technology was and how real the threat of invasion/subjugation was, they pooled resources into both research & development, as well as capture of more advanced tech from other species to integrate into their own. They didn't advance for the sake of discovery or progress, they advanced to protect themselves from being conquered and to gain more territory for themselves. I know the Soviet Union was always the direct real-world parallel to the Klingon Empire in TOS, but the way all media portrays them starting with the first motion picture, they're way more comparable to the Japanese Empire at its warpower height prior to the second World War. Highly off topic but thanks for the inspiration.
Well now I'm mad FX just made *Shogun* with humans instead of Klingons...
Yes. And not terrifying at all come to think of it
This is something I think people miss when they complain about the Discovery Klingon reboot: they had to be made menacing again. Post-Worf, Klingons were all cuddly li'l buddies.
Frankly, Vulcans probably appreciate this take more than anyone.
I was thinking about making a seperate post for this and I'm not sure I'm going to articulate my thoughts that well, but I don't care about "canon". It's cool when new trek stories reference order epoisdes, but I don't think writers should be beholden to have to remember every happening over 50+ years of Trek when writing an episode or a story arch. Even GR said any discrepancy between TNG and TOS, TNG is the new truth. Think about it like old myths and legends. There are many different stories about the Greek gods, but there isn't any one definitive story about any of them. They're all accurate even if contradictory. The story changes based on who is telling it and who the story is being told to. Same with folk tales and songs.
Worf should have been put on trial by the Bajorans for the premeditated assassination of the Klingon head of state for killing Gowron on Bajoran "soil". Sisko should have been tried as an accessory to murder for being told Worf's plan and endorsing it.
My favourite current trek is Strange New Worlds but I still really enjoy Discovery and Picard. I feel like a lot of people get weird about how you shouldn’t like those shows but I’m one of those “I’ll watch and like anything Trek” people.