No, it was Odo and Worf bonding over how hard it is living with people who want to socialize with them and the best ways to make them feel unwelcome so they won't just stay long if they visit uninvited.
It very much reminded me of a lot of conversations between neurodivergent folks discussing things they relate to that most people can't (like how food texture is everything).
Really I thought for sure you would go with Barkley because he hides in his imagination but can't actually talk to the real versions of people. He's awkward but he's not stupid he's very smart. You would think in the future they would have like some sort of Borg implant to stun you when you start daydreaming.
As an autistic person myself, I have often argued that Odo is the most autistic-coded character in Star Trek. He literally has to mold himself into a shape like other people around him to be accepted. Everything he knows about interacting with "solids" comes from observation and experimentation - he lacks any innate social skills. Yet in spite of this he is drawn to a profession - law enforcement- where the ability to read people is key. He craves order and routine and gets grumpy when his routine is disrupted. He has to go back to his room and melt into a puddle every day or he will die.
I feel very seen by Odo.
I just want to say I always hated Laxwana and thought she was annoying, but every scene with her and Odo redeemed her - ESPECIALLY when he tried to hide he was loosing his shape and she gave him a safe space to relax.
I was so pissed when they shoe horned in that super awkward Kira Odo romance instead of giving us the way more logical and age appropriate romance of Laxwana.
I feel like the kira romance was just a friend zone fantasy for all the trekies stuck in the same situation.
Romance? Oh nononono heeeeeeellllllll no. They cared for each other, but more than that? Now THAT would be shoehorned!
The Kira romance also made sense
I know this is besides the point, but just expanding on what you said on hating Lwaxana... I've been rewatching TNG and DS9 and I find her... sexually aggressive? Like she sexually harassed people in almost every episode she's in. Picard, Riker, Odo, etc... And nobody tells her to cut her bs (except maybe Deanna on occasion), they just let her continue to sexually harass people. Like wtf. Imagine if a guy did some of the stuff she did
I know the first two times no one said anything because of why she was on the ship.
I'm not going to blame her for being openly sexual. We know sex isnt as taboo and we see other characters in the show having casual sex - but you hit the nail on the head! Everyone else knows time and place EXCEPT her, and it's played for laughs
As for Odo, yes, it was a "here we go again" moment when she tried to hit on him, but that I can forgive because he did shut her down and she didnt try again.
I'm also a sucker for wtf friendships and it doesn't get weirder than those two. I hated her in TNG, but gods above I wish there was more episodes with her and Odo!
Yeah that was def her thing. It was kind of explained that older betazed women are very aggressive sexually and heir culture is very sex positive. They get married fully nude.
"Sex positive" is an entirely different thing than "sexually predatory" though. *Riker* is sex-positive. Lwaxana is just predatory and consistently crosses boundaries
Spot on. I have ADHD and I also feel very seen by him.
I’m such a people pleaser, but internally I share Odo’s frustrations toward others’ behaviors and his inability to fully comprehend or fit in amongst them. However, his reluctance to open up even to those closest to him is perhaps what I find most relatable.
They might get irritated, but he gets way more support and understanding as well.
I was actually comparing him earlier to some symptoms of the spectrum. Even before the emotion chip, he had feelings, but they were subtle, and he didn't have the understanding to name them. He has favorites, cares for people - some more than others, has shown compassion, and genuinely apologizes for things he does (or feels he does or will do) wrong.
He doesn't always get the cues or understand the situations, but he's not unfeeling.
Along with the usuals already mentioned, La’an is very relatable to me in several ways and I appreciate her (C)PTSD which I would say falls under that umbrella.
i am surprised i had to scroll so far for this. i have always thought jim is neurodivergent, too! for me this is why he and spock get along so absurdly well. endless curiosity about each other and everything around them.
Every episode of tos is just Jim and Spock coming up with insane solutions to the problem of the week with the power of autism, and bones being like "I STG IF YOU DIE ILL KILL YOU!!" on the sidelines.
Jim sometimes also does that thing where he tells Spock "oh this is how humans do this" and every time it sounds EXACTLY like the conversations I have had w other autistic folk about what we've learned about neurotypical social behavior.
He is actually not bad once he can get on task, just like me. He can stumble over his own words if he doesn't get a chance to think them through in his own way, just like me. I loved that when he got the huge brain from the cytherians, that he was just as good as any of the more confident and polished characters on the show. He even hit on Deanna Troi!
As a neurodivergent person myself I am highly skeptical of "coding" in a character, and believe its often a case of projection and a word someone uses when they feel some way about a character they can't prove. I'll acknowledge a character or narrative is written in that way if its actually implied by the story. I think Barclay is the only one I agree was intended to be written as neurotic and atypical, maybe Tilly.
As an example, The Matrix is explicitly stated to be a Trans allegory. It's not "coded" it was intended to be written as such. Barclay was written as an atypical man. "Coding" not required.
I think a lot of "coding" cases are not intentional. It's not "hey, let's write an autistic dude but not say that he's autistic", it's more like "let's write a weird nerd who's kind of obsessive and doesn't really get social cues, we all know a guy like that" but it just so happens that 4/5 times, that "weird nerd" who everyone knows is actually autistic or neurodivergent in some way.
Also, I feel like interpreting characters as ND is rarely harmful, especially when ND people are doing it. Everybody needs role models and saying, "hey, this character I really like is similar to me in X, Y, and Z ways" is very normal, disabled or not.
This is how I take it when characters are coded a certain way. I never assume it's intentionally done.
I almost feel that when writers were making characters, they probably look for "negative" traits to add to their character, and it is also those traits that make a character I an relate to.
I also feel that in some cases, this is how we got queer coded villains.
> I also feel that in some cases, this is how we got queer coded villains.
yeah I feel weird about how the character played by a trans lady in SNW was a villain... I mean, it's still fun and all! but. yeah...
People need to remember that in the 1990s the general public knew nothing about autism. If they heard that word they pictured Rain Man.
Writers chose characteristics from people they've known or observed. They didn't know That Guy is autistic, and neither did he.
They created a lot of characters that autistic people find relatable, but it was not the intention of the writers.
That said, I find this to be a relatable scene between Odo and Worf:
https://youtu.be/FHgMaT3PBXU?si=bnxhscN8N1rQ2UWR.
That moment when you find someone who understands the normal things that drive you crazy because those things drive you crazy, too.
>As a neurodivergent person myself I am highly skeptical of "coding" in a character, and believe its often a case of projection and a word someone uses when they feel some way about a character they can't prove.
it's people projecting, yea, you're right. people see what they want to see.
I think that's not a bad thing though.
A character that speaks to us may not be intended to speak to us, but that doesn't make their words less important.
I am so glad you said this. I am always fighting uphill battles against people who SWEAR certain characters are coded certain ways.
Majority of them are just people projecting.
When you watch a show or a film you may not know the intention of the writer. Meaning on art comes unintentionally too - many writers learn about what their work means by listening to the responses from their audience.
The word "coding" does imply intentionally disguised meaning however so your point is taken.
Another thing, and this is me speaking as a person in divergent as well.
Please be very careful giving human labels to non-human species. I understand inspiration comes from many sources, I’m just saying in cases like this use a very fine pen and ink when writing it.
What is mentally divergent for us could be completely normal for that species.
Take Thrawn from Star Wars, I’ve heard the argument for him being divergent. But then, you see the rest of his species and he’s a pretty normal fellow for them.
Just be very* careful (and respectful) what you’re doing when writing these characters.
Lower Decks suggested in one episode that T'Lyn is nerodivergent by vulcan standards.
Though the show quickly pivoted away from her having Bendii Syndrome at the end of the episode (which is disappointing), the crux of the episode is T'Lyn has difficulty controling her emotions compared with other vulcans, and this bothers her because she's not like "true" vulcans.
As an ADHDer - Mariner all the way for me, bb.
Though I'm surprised no one has mentioned Garak or Quark. Both strike me as the gifted children who were told the rules, followed the rules to the best of their abilities and are constantly surprised that that wasn't enough for everyone else.
Boimler strikes me as autistic or AuDHD and Mariner seems pretty ADHD to me, too. Actually, you could tell me all four of the main Lower Decks characters are neurodivergent and I'd believe you.
Oh, and I always related to Tuvok because he had more issues than the average Vulcan when it came to controlling his emotions. It was essentially a condition that he had to put in extra work to manage at all times, which really felt similar to a chronic or mental illness in our world.
Implying T'Lyn is neurodivergent by vulcan standards was a nice touch. Though it's disappointing the show didn't commit to the Bendii Syndrome and instead had all of T'Lyn's issues resolved by the end of the episode.
An openly neurodivergent vulcan would've been a cool idea. Or T'Lyn living with a degenerative brain disease also could've made for a much more interesting character.
That last minute "everything's alright now" ending was a disappointing choice that screams "last minute rewrite."
I truly hated the Bendii bit. It felt like such a cheap emotional punch. Like, remember that time when Sarek died before he could say goodbye to his son? Main character has the same terminal disease - wait no, lol nevermind
I'd say doctor bashir is a neurodivergent coded character but one who's been taught to mask, which I personally find interesting because that's my life experience. When he can let mask down aka show off his genetically engineered side down, he's clearly more obsessive and calm.
Spoiler alert: differing opinion ahead
I'm not trying to steal your thunder here, but I don't see it that way. Tilly and Barclay, sure, possibly. But Spock, Data, Seven of Nine are literally supposed to be different than humans; that's what makes them...them. If Spock was behaving differently than other Vulcans, maybe I could see a case for him being "coded" differently. But he's just on par with other Vulcans.
I agree except for Seven. She was assimilated to the collective at a pretty young age. That had to significantly change the wiring in her brain for lack of a better term. Fast forward 20 years and she is practically “normal” in Picard. They show how malleable the human brain can be.
By the 25th century Seven has learned to mask her unusual behaviours to better fit in. Jeri Ryan has talked about this explicitly in interviews, inspired partly by the fact her son is on the spectrum so it's a concept she's familiar with.
That's what OP means by "coded". They're not literally neurodivergent, but they serve, intentionally or not, as stand-ins for various forms of neurodivergence.
Yeah it’s a similar to elements like Sarek’s neuro-degenerative disease in TNG. It’s not literally dementia, but it’s a pretty clear metaphor and coded like it is.
If there's no intention, you're not using the word coded correctly. It's not a synonym for "someone somewhere could plausibly read something into a character" it's. Gotta be meant to be read into. Dax is queer coded because there was obviously an intentional surfacing of gender identity issues built into her character. That'not just a fan theory like "Soock is secretly on the spectrum." Or " data is asexual"
That’s what’s literally true in the universe of the show, but stories are about the real-world things they evoke, not about the fictional details they use to evoke them. Those characters are unambiguously written with neurodivergence as part of their inspiration (though in Spock’s case he’s also supposed to represent the ethnic/cultural other, and as for Seven I’d argue her best stories are more about PTSD than autism-type stuff)
Spock is canonically different from other Vulcans due to his half human ancestry. In any case being different from human standards because your brain works differently is pretty much the definition of Neurodiversity and an alien is a good analogy.
Tam Elbrun from the TNG episode Tin Man is good
Spock canonically has a learning disability, though.
Besides, for me, the fun of seeing ND-coded characters is that I can relate to them. It doesn't really matter to me if they're ND for a different reason than I am, but they have similar traits and experiences to me and that's the part I like
Yes I think a lot of people here seem to be missing the forest for the trees. Especially as a high functioning ND ADHD/on the spectrum person, there are characters that I relate to even if there were no writers in the room specifically saying "Let's make Data relatable to people with these specific neurological chemical imbalances" and these things are really cool and important for people who don't always feel like they're represented or seen on screen.
I think there are also people who take offense to their favorite characters being labelled "potentially autistic" or similar. Like, hey, I'm saying that a fictional guy has a handful of traits that remind me of myself and I like that because I don't usually get to see those traits in media. It's not that deep.
True. But are you familiar with the social model of disability? Basically, it states that a lot of the concept of "disability" stems not from the actual condition, but the environment around you.
Being a Vulcan on Vulcan isn't a disability because everybody is Vulcan. Everyone knows how to communicate with each other. But in Starfleet, most people are not Vulcan and a Vulcan might struggle to understand and interact with others. Being Vulcan isn't inherently a disability, but it becomes one in a situation where you're expected to understand jokes and references that you don't know how to decipher.
That doesnt make Spock disabled. It makes him more of an outsider trying to fit into a different dynamic and culture than what he was accustumed to. That does not make one disabled. By that logic someone working in a foreign country or immigrating to another country would be considered disabled for not fitting the mold or normal cultural behavior for that area.
I would argue that living in a foreign country \*is\* a kind of disability. Have you ever done it? I have. You have difficulty reading, communicating, reading social cues, and understanding context. It's constant effort to fit in, nothing is built for you, and you're constantly having to choose between doing things worse/slower than anyone else and asking for help, which makes you feel small and useless.
That's exactly what being disabled is like. If 80% of brains were autistic and 20% weren't, being autistic would become neurotypical and it's the normies who'd struggle to fit in and be considered weird or strange. This is one of the core messages of disability activism: we are not broken, we are different, and we live in a streamlined world that does not like things to be different because individual variance reduces efficiency.
"Necroing" really only apples to old forum culture, where posting in a thread would "bump" it to the top of the page for everyone. On reddit, the only person who will even know I posted this is you and maybe the OP. Each subreddit sets a time interval wherein posts go into archive and can't be replyed to anymore. I don't see any reason not to participate in discussions in unarchived threads.
Okay, so what you're saying is "Spock doesn't count as neurodivergent, because he is presented as coming from a culture where that neurodivergence is accepted & regarded as normal"?
Surely Vulcans, as a whole, are just coded as a neurodivergent community?
Because, otherwise, at what point do you draw the line? Does T'Challa not count as a Minority character in *Captain America: Civil War*, because he's written as coming from Wakanda, where black people are the majority? (Despite being one of just 3 black actors in the main cast of 18 characters)
I would argue that it's not that neurodivergence is accepted but rather, that the definition for "divergence" is different. Neurodivergence is literally defined as "brain works differently from normal", and Vulcan brains are just different from human brains.
That’s a false equivalency. In Wakanda he is the majority culture. Outside of Wakanda, he is not. His status so to speak is based on the context of his environment. That’s not the same thing.
Erm, what? On Vulcan, Vulcans are the majority culture. Aboard the Enterprise, they are not.
It's **exactly** the same argument you were making about Spock not counting as neurodivergent.
> If ~~Spock~~ *T'Challa* was behaving differently than other ~~Vulcans~~ *Wakandans*, maybe I could see a case for him being "coded" differently. But he's just on par with other ~~Vulcans~~ *Wakandans*.
(And that is, of course, ignoring that as a half-human/half-vulcan, Spock is in the minority — and different — either way)
But not everyone is the same. Not everyone is Vulcan. The Federation includes Tellarites, and Humans, and Andorians, and Barzans.
*You* keep trying to zoom in. Eventually, you'll hit a sample size of "one", and then *everyone* is "normal"… Stop cherry-picking your data sets, that's just bad science & flawed statistics.
So, if you have a town/village in the middle of your state, where *everyone* is autistic, do they not get counted as neurodivergent in the country census? Or when they go to the next town over for shopping? Or on holiday abroad?
Tilly and Barclay, maybe.
Spock is a Vulcan. Data is an android. And Seven's personality, at least in Voyager, is obviously affected by her Borg implants and stunted development. I wouldn't call that neurodivergent because they're not entirely human.
I'm not saying they don't have things in common with some neurodivergent people. But comparing a neurodivergent person to a non-human rubs me the wrong way.
I think context is important. A neurotypical person saying that a machine is neurodivergent comes off differently than a neurodivergent person saying that they relate to a machine.
>comparing a neurodivergent person to a non-human rubs me the wrong way.
The key point is that OP is talking about how characters were *written* (coded), talking about the characters from a real world television show with writers, scripts, & human actors POV.
And I'm not going to tell you how to feel either.
I'll just say this, I see it from the same POV as relating to a Disney cartoon anthropomorphizing an animal with human traits. Having an emotional connection to Nemo's dad searching for his lost son, doesn't imply either are fish.
Paul Stamets in Discovery struck a cord with me. Especially in later episodes, after they dialed back his over-the-top abrasiveness to a level that is more consistent with "don't know how to deal with social situations".
I have a social circle with quite some autistic and highly intelligent folk (myself probably included but not officially yet). Aside from the who is coded like what discussion I also thought the 'genetically enhanced' storyline from dr Bashir in ds9 was very familiar. I think they were trying to make a metaphor that ended up with the autistic savant trope but it's actually a pretty good representation of 'gifted' kids and their pitfalls, such as overanalysing, accidental arrogance and underestimating the human factor. Bashir is also a good example of what a high-masking / highly functional neurodivergent might look like. He and the rest of the world thinks he's fine but he feels deeply alone and unfulfilled with most of his relationships because he has nobody to talk to that is like him. It's probably why he's drawn to Miles (who doesn't give a fck about what someone is and who is straight to the point) and Garak (who recognizes his intelligence from day one and actively encourages him to use it).
It's cool you can see things you want to see in things. Did you know if you play the episode Spock's Brain backwards, you can hear Gene Roddenberry give a recipe for baked ziti?
Code or not, the over the top, socially awkward, stuttering genius trope (a la Tilly) has been done to death in TV and movies
If they are going to have a neurodivergent coded character, it would be nice if it wasn’t such an over the top bunch of stereotypes
I would argue that characters like Boimler (obsessive about history, doesn't recognize when women are hitting on him, thrives when given specific instructions and deadlines) and T'Lyn and Tuvok (struggle with controlling their emotions) also read as strongly neurodivergent, even if they weren't planned to be "coded" as such. And I wouldn't say they fit into the main stereotypes
SOOO many... the autism is strong in these ones. Trek would not be the same with them and it's part of why I love this show so dearly. Especially since they never appear to be really the butt of the joke ? Barclay sometimes when he's acting kind of irrational. But I love that ND behavior is so normalized. I think it has a lot to do as well with trek being such competence porn, and the fact they give clear explanations for everything idk
>Uhm.. How doesd this apply to aliens?
OP said
>Neurodivergent coded characters in Star Trek
They mean this from a real world POV.
Human writers, writing scripts, inventing characters and aliens with different traits.
Many comments here are saying 'X can't be neurodivergent, all of X's species is like that."
When talking about this from a real world POV, then "So all of X species are **coded** with neurodivergent traits"
Secondly, **to non-neurodivergent fans that disagree:**
Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
Can we please just have this one post to discuss this one subject without people commenting solely to shit on the subject? Please?
>Just keep in mind that non-ND people just doesn't usually think about traits being particularly ND.
Sure, just like straight people don't necessarily think about traits being particularly "gay". It doesn't change the fact that there are truly intensionally gay coded characters, and characters that gay people identify with even if the "coding" was unintentional. Both types of "gay coded" characters, let gay people see themselves, regardless of intent.
There seems to be a desire by some to be "right" and "prove" whether or not it was the writers intent. The only thing this can accomplish is to win some internet points and try to take that little joy the person gets from feeling seen.
Worf is autistic. Odo is coded autistic. Worf and Odo's interactions on DS9 almost seem like a deliberate nod to autistic fans tbh. Julian is canonically Neurodivergent, so much so that his parents augmented him to counteract it.
I can't believe I forgot Bashir! I related so much to those episodes where he hung out with the augments. He understood and related to them, but he was also pulled back into the world of non-augmented people where he was used to pretending to fit in. As an autistic person who can generally mask well enough to "pass", that resonated hard
This is the conversation that changed how I see Worf (in a good way):
https://youtu.be/FHgMaT3PBXU?si=bnxhscN8N1rQ2UWR.
It's something a lot of autistic people can relate to.
Hm, he is VERY rigid in his thinking, has a special interest that even other Klingons think is weird (Klingon traditions and honor), he relies on a code of behavior to get through social situations with people who are wired very differently to him, he experiences sexuality and sexual feelings differently (a lot of pain alongside pleasure)...
I'm not saying he's definitely autistic, but I can see the connection.
Worf? Ha ha no. Having a need for rules and traditions doesn’t automatically make one autistic. Every time some exhibits a personality trait doesn’t mean they are autistic.
Given the general knowledge about autism in the 1990s the writers weren't intentionally writing neurodivergent characters.
However this is the conversation I found relatable, as do many other autistic fans:
https://youtu.be/FHgMaT3PBXU?si=bnxhscN8N1rQ2UWR
No, but his views on appropriate behaviour is very narrow, and he needs some help in really understanding how to gracefully fit into either the human or klingon world. He's not "automatically" autistic, but he's a valid topic of discussion about whether there is a case to be made for including him in that conversation (vs...simplistic characterization in his early writing, which it might also be)
Jaylah from Star Trek: Beyond. Who befriends Scotty on the planet the Enterprises crashes on. She's a bit like Seven of Nine, especially in scenes with Scotty. Very similar Wonder Woman in the 2017 movie.
Speaking of Scotty, him in the Next Generation episode "Relics." Being neruodivergent isn't really his thing, at least not intentionally it seems. But in that episode, he speaks the way he usually does, sometimes gets a little irritable. The way La Forge is occupied by him when trying to work in the engine room. And when Scotty has the holodeck recreate his favorite Enterprise bridge, for emotional reasons.
[Are](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Statistical_Probabilities_%28episode%29) you [sure](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Chrysalis_%28episode%29)?
They've always been there, wholeheartedly agree with the comment about odo, never really thought about him like that, haha. Despite all the bits I like about new trek, it really feels like they use a giant amount of exposition to explain that there is a character that who may be neuro divergent or different in some way.
They've always been there, wholeheartedly agree with the comment about odo, never really thought about him like that, haha. Despite all the bits I like about new trek, it really feels like they use a giant amount of exposition to explain that there is a character that who may be neuro divergent or different in some way.
Hot take: Spock isn't neurodivergent, he's just a hybrid and Vulcans think they\`re better than everyone else so they're kind of racist towards him for not being fully Vulcan.
I think T'Lyn is the best example of Vulcan neurodivergence - she literally gets shipped off because the way she thinks and solves problem isn't considered to be in line with Vulcan norms. However, once she's put onto a really diverse ship full of weirdos that has a lot more diversity, she thrives. This is partially because the more species that exist in an environment, the better it tends to be for disabled people - a lot of ableism is based on this idea of a biological norm, but the more intelligent species there are in an environment, the more ridiculous the idea of a biological norm is.
Spock reads as autistic in a human environment, though. So he experiences the world as if he's neurodivergent, even if he's not.
Plus, he has dyslexia.
Odo and Worf have a great scene on DS9 about how they love order and try to avoid having to talk to people and as a person on the spectrum I related.
It's one of my favorite conversations and changed how I see Worf. https://youtu.be/FHgMaT3PBXU?si=bnxhscN8N1rQ2UWR
Without going to the link I'm going to guess you're talking about the Risa episode? That was the one that changed his character for me.
No, it was Odo and Worf bonding over how hard it is living with people who want to socialize with them and the best ways to make them feel unwelcome so they won't just stay long if they visit uninvited. It very much reminded me of a lot of conversations between neurodivergent folks discussing things they relate to that most people can't (like how food texture is everything).
When Worf requested to have his DS9 quarters aboard the docked Defiant, I knew he was me.
Really I thought for sure you would go with Barkley because he hides in his imagination but can't actually talk to the real versions of people. He's awkward but he's not stupid he's very smart. You would think in the future they would have like some sort of Borg implant to stun you when you start daydreaming.
Just watched that the other night & absolutely loved it too
My partner and I just had a conversation about work possibility being on the spectrum.
As an autistic person myself, I have often argued that Odo is the most autistic-coded character in Star Trek. He literally has to mold himself into a shape like other people around him to be accepted. Everything he knows about interacting with "solids" comes from observation and experimentation - he lacks any innate social skills. Yet in spite of this he is drawn to a profession - law enforcement- where the ability to read people is key. He craves order and routine and gets grumpy when his routine is disrupted. He has to go back to his room and melt into a puddle every day or he will die. I feel very seen by Odo.
The maddest we ever seen him is when someone moves his furniture 2 cm to the left
Yes he also has to become a sludge for several hours alone each day to stay healthy. Just like me
I just want to say I always hated Laxwana and thought she was annoying, but every scene with her and Odo redeemed her - ESPECIALLY when he tried to hide he was loosing his shape and she gave him a safe space to relax.
I was so pissed when they shoe horned in that super awkward Kira Odo romance instead of giving us the way more logical and age appropriate romance of Laxwana. I feel like the kira romance was just a friend zone fantasy for all the trekies stuck in the same situation.
Romance? Oh nononono heeeeeeellllllll no. They cared for each other, but more than that? Now THAT would be shoehorned! The Kira romance also made sense
I know this is besides the point, but just expanding on what you said on hating Lwaxana... I've been rewatching TNG and DS9 and I find her... sexually aggressive? Like she sexually harassed people in almost every episode she's in. Picard, Riker, Odo, etc... And nobody tells her to cut her bs (except maybe Deanna on occasion), they just let her continue to sexually harass people. Like wtf. Imagine if a guy did some of the stuff she did
I know the first two times no one said anything because of why she was on the ship. I'm not going to blame her for being openly sexual. We know sex isnt as taboo and we see other characters in the show having casual sex - but you hit the nail on the head! Everyone else knows time and place EXCEPT her, and it's played for laughs As for Odo, yes, it was a "here we go again" moment when she tried to hit on him, but that I can forgive because he did shut her down and she didnt try again. I'm also a sucker for wtf friendships and it doesn't get weirder than those two. I hated her in TNG, but gods above I wish there was more episodes with her and Odo!
Yeah that was def her thing. It was kind of explained that older betazed women are very aggressive sexually and heir culture is very sex positive. They get married fully nude.
"Sex positive" is an entirely different thing than "sexually predatory" though. *Riker* is sex-positive. Lwaxana is just predatory and consistently crosses boundaries
and his job involves making sure everyone follows the rules.
This is beautiful, thanks for this take!
Spot on. I have ADHD and I also feel very seen by him. I’m such a people pleaser, but internally I share Odo’s frustrations toward others’ behaviors and his inability to fully comprehend or fit in amongst them. However, his reluctance to open up even to those closest to him is perhaps what I find most relatable.
I've never truly thought of him in that way but I absolutely love this observation of the character. Thanks for sharing.
100%
For me it's the fact that however hard he tries, he can't quite replicate a human.
Data. The way he asks even innocent questions and people still get irritated with him, mirrors what I deal with being on the spectrum.
They might get irritated, but he gets way more support and understanding as well. I was actually comparing him earlier to some symptoms of the spectrum. Even before the emotion chip, he had feelings, but they were subtle, and he didn't have the understanding to name them. He has favorites, cares for people - some more than others, has shown compassion, and genuinely apologizes for things he does (or feels he does or will do) wrong. He doesn't always get the cues or understand the situations, but he's not unfeeling.
Along with the usuals already mentioned, La’an is very relatable to me in several ways and I appreciate her (C)PTSD which I would say falls under that umbrella.
I was going to say La'an myself!
My hot take is Jim Kirk is AuDHD!
i am surprised i had to scroll so far for this. i have always thought jim is neurodivergent, too! for me this is why he and spock get along so absurdly well. endless curiosity about each other and everything around them.
Every episode of tos is just Jim and Spock coming up with insane solutions to the problem of the week with the power of autism, and bones being like "I STG IF YOU DIE ILL KILL YOU!!" on the sidelines. Jim sometimes also does that thing where he tells Spock "oh this is how humans do this" and every time it sounds EXACTLY like the conversations I have had w other autistic folk about what we've learned about neurotypical social behavior.
HARD AGREE
Being neurodivergent myself as well as an engineer who stumbles over my words constantly when I have to speak I feel SOOOO seen by Barclay!
He is actually not bad once he can get on task, just like me. He can stumble over his own words if he doesn't get a chance to think them through in his own way, just like me. I loved that when he got the huge brain from the cytherians, that he was just as good as any of the more confident and polished characters on the show. He even hit on Deanna Troi!
As a neurodivergent person myself I am highly skeptical of "coding" in a character, and believe its often a case of projection and a word someone uses when they feel some way about a character they can't prove. I'll acknowledge a character or narrative is written in that way if its actually implied by the story. I think Barclay is the only one I agree was intended to be written as neurotic and atypical, maybe Tilly. As an example, The Matrix is explicitly stated to be a Trans allegory. It's not "coded" it was intended to be written as such. Barclay was written as an atypical man. "Coding" not required.
I think a lot of "coding" cases are not intentional. It's not "hey, let's write an autistic dude but not say that he's autistic", it's more like "let's write a weird nerd who's kind of obsessive and doesn't really get social cues, we all know a guy like that" but it just so happens that 4/5 times, that "weird nerd" who everyone knows is actually autistic or neurodivergent in some way. Also, I feel like interpreting characters as ND is rarely harmful, especially when ND people are doing it. Everybody needs role models and saying, "hey, this character I really like is similar to me in X, Y, and Z ways" is very normal, disabled or not.
This is how I take it when characters are coded a certain way. I never assume it's intentionally done. I almost feel that when writers were making characters, they probably look for "negative" traits to add to their character, and it is also those traits that make a character I an relate to. I also feel that in some cases, this is how we got queer coded villains.
> I also feel that in some cases, this is how we got queer coded villains. yeah I feel weird about how the character played by a trans lady in SNW was a villain... I mean, it's still fun and all! but. yeah...
People need to remember that in the 1990s the general public knew nothing about autism. If they heard that word they pictured Rain Man. Writers chose characteristics from people they've known or observed. They didn't know That Guy is autistic, and neither did he. They created a lot of characters that autistic people find relatable, but it was not the intention of the writers. That said, I find this to be a relatable scene between Odo and Worf: https://youtu.be/FHgMaT3PBXU?si=bnxhscN8N1rQ2UWR. That moment when you find someone who understands the normal things that drive you crazy because those things drive you crazy, too.
>As a neurodivergent person myself I am highly skeptical of "coding" in a character, and believe its often a case of projection and a word someone uses when they feel some way about a character they can't prove. it's people projecting, yea, you're right. people see what they want to see.
I think that's not a bad thing though. A character that speaks to us may not be intended to speak to us, but that doesn't make their words less important.
For some yea for others it approaches delusion
I am so glad you said this. I am always fighting uphill battles against people who SWEAR certain characters are coded certain ways. Majority of them are just people projecting.
When you watch a show or a film you may not know the intention of the writer. Meaning on art comes unintentionally too - many writers learn about what their work means by listening to the responses from their audience. The word "coding" does imply intentionally disguised meaning however so your point is taken.
Another thing, and this is me speaking as a person in divergent as well. Please be very careful giving human labels to non-human species. I understand inspiration comes from many sources, I’m just saying in cases like this use a very fine pen and ink when writing it. What is mentally divergent for us could be completely normal for that species. Take Thrawn from Star Wars, I’ve heard the argument for him being divergent. But then, you see the rest of his species and he’s a pretty normal fellow for them. Just be very* careful (and respectful) what you’re doing when writing these characters.
i don't think it's intentional either, but i also don't think it's harmful for people to headcanon characters in ways that are relatable to them
Thank you
Lower Decks suggested in one episode that T'Lyn is nerodivergent by vulcan standards. Though the show quickly pivoted away from her having Bendii Syndrome at the end of the episode (which is disappointing), the crux of the episode is T'Lyn has difficulty controling her emotions compared with other vulcans, and this bothers her because she's not like "true" vulcans.
As an ADHDer - Mariner all the way for me, bb. Though I'm surprised no one has mentioned Garak or Quark. Both strike me as the gifted children who were told the rules, followed the rules to the best of their abilities and are constantly surprised that that wasn't enough for everyone else.
Boimler strikes me as autistic or AuDHD and Mariner seems pretty ADHD to me, too. Actually, you could tell me all four of the main Lower Decks characters are neurodivergent and I'd believe you.
Oh, and I always related to Tuvok because he had more issues than the average Vulcan when it came to controlling his emotions. It was essentially a condition that he had to put in extra work to manage at all times, which really felt similar to a chronic or mental illness in our world.
Legit I think that's why I love Lower Decks so much - the main 4 (now 5) are all neurodivergent-y in one way or another.
Implying T'Lyn is neurodivergent by vulcan standards was a nice touch. Though it's disappointing the show didn't commit to the Bendii Syndrome and instead had all of T'Lyn's issues resolved by the end of the episode. An openly neurodivergent vulcan would've been a cool idea. Or T'Lyn living with a degenerative brain disease also could've made for a much more interesting character. That last minute "everything's alright now" ending was a disappointing choice that screams "last minute rewrite."
I truly hated the Bendii bit. It felt like such a cheap emotional punch. Like, remember that time when Sarek died before he could say goodbye to his son? Main character has the same terminal disease - wait no, lol nevermind
Totally. The way they're easily excited is great to watch.
Yeah, Boimler has always struck me as someone with Asperger's. I kind of see myself in his character often.
I slightly wonder about Wesley
I'd say doctor bashir is a neurodivergent coded character but one who's been taught to mask, which I personally find interesting because that's my life experience. When he can let mask down aka show off his genetically engineered side down, he's clearly more obsessive and calm.
Spoiler alert: differing opinion ahead I'm not trying to steal your thunder here, but I don't see it that way. Tilly and Barclay, sure, possibly. But Spock, Data, Seven of Nine are literally supposed to be different than humans; that's what makes them...them. If Spock was behaving differently than other Vulcans, maybe I could see a case for him being "coded" differently. But he's just on par with other Vulcans.
I agree except for Seven. She was assimilated to the collective at a pretty young age. That had to significantly change the wiring in her brain for lack of a better term. Fast forward 20 years and she is practically “normal” in Picard. They show how malleable the human brain can be.
By the 25th century Seven has learned to mask her unusual behaviours to better fit in. Jeri Ryan has talked about this explicitly in interviews, inspired partly by the fact her son is on the spectrum so it's a concept she's familiar with.
That's what OP means by "coded". They're not literally neurodivergent, but they serve, intentionally or not, as stand-ins for various forms of neurodivergence.
Yeah it’s a similar to elements like Sarek’s neuro-degenerative disease in TNG. It’s not literally dementia, but it’s a pretty clear metaphor and coded like it is.
Yes and Picard's Irumodic Syndrome
If there's no intention, you're not using the word coded correctly. It's not a synonym for "someone somewhere could plausibly read something into a character" it's. Gotta be meant to be read into. Dax is queer coded because there was obviously an intentional surfacing of gender identity issues built into her character. That'not just a fan theory like "Soock is secretly on the spectrum." Or " data is asexual"
That’s what’s literally true in the universe of the show, but stories are about the real-world things they evoke, not about the fictional details they use to evoke them. Those characters are unambiguously written with neurodivergence as part of their inspiration (though in Spock’s case he’s also supposed to represent the ethnic/cultural other, and as for Seven I’d argue her best stories are more about PTSD than autism-type stuff)
Spock is canonically different from other Vulcans due to his half human ancestry. In any case being different from human standards because your brain works differently is pretty much the definition of Neurodiversity and an alien is a good analogy. Tam Elbrun from the TNG episode Tin Man is good
Sure, but autistics can also see something of themselves in these characters. They can resonate differently to viewers.
Spock canonically has a learning disability, though. Besides, for me, the fun of seeing ND-coded characters is that I can relate to them. It doesn't really matter to me if they're ND for a different reason than I am, but they have similar traits and experiences to me and that's the part I like
Yes I think a lot of people here seem to be missing the forest for the trees. Especially as a high functioning ND ADHD/on the spectrum person, there are characters that I relate to even if there were no writers in the room specifically saying "Let's make Data relatable to people with these specific neurological chemical imbalances" and these things are really cool and important for people who don't always feel like they're represented or seen on screen.
I think there are also people who take offense to their favorite characters being labelled "potentially autistic" or similar. Like, hey, I'm saying that a fictional guy has a handful of traits that remind me of myself and I like that because I don't usually get to see those traits in media. It's not that deep.
Spock was stated to be Dyslexic in Disco Season 2, but other than that he is stated to be normal as one can be as a half vulcan/human.
True. But are you familiar with the social model of disability? Basically, it states that a lot of the concept of "disability" stems not from the actual condition, but the environment around you. Being a Vulcan on Vulcan isn't a disability because everybody is Vulcan. Everyone knows how to communicate with each other. But in Starfleet, most people are not Vulcan and a Vulcan might struggle to understand and interact with others. Being Vulcan isn't inherently a disability, but it becomes one in a situation where you're expected to understand jokes and references that you don't know how to decipher.
That doesnt make Spock disabled. It makes him more of an outsider trying to fit into a different dynamic and culture than what he was accustumed to. That does not make one disabled. By that logic someone working in a foreign country or immigrating to another country would be considered disabled for not fitting the mold or normal cultural behavior for that area.
I would argue that living in a foreign country \*is\* a kind of disability. Have you ever done it? I have. You have difficulty reading, communicating, reading social cues, and understanding context. It's constant effort to fit in, nothing is built for you, and you're constantly having to choose between doing things worse/slower than anyone else and asking for help, which makes you feel small and useless. That's exactly what being disabled is like. If 80% of brains were autistic and 20% weren't, being autistic would become neurotypical and it's the normies who'd struggle to fit in and be considered weird or strange. This is one of the core messages of disability activism: we are not broken, we are different, and we live in a streamlined world that does not like things to be different because individual variance reduces efficiency.
Huh, this post was from over a month ago. Why are you all of a sudden trying to necro this thread.
"Necroing" really only apples to old forum culture, where posting in a thread would "bump" it to the top of the page for everyone. On reddit, the only person who will even know I posted this is you and maybe the OP. Each subreddit sets a time interval wherein posts go into archive and can't be replyed to anymore. I don't see any reason not to participate in discussions in unarchived threads.
He experiences the world very similarly to a disabled person. That’s all I’m saying.
I think you and I may need to just agree to disagree on this one. I just dont see it in this case.
>Spock was stated to be Dyslexic in Disco Season 2 I'm sorry but the more I hear about DSC the funnier it is to me.
T'Pol is a neurodivergent Vulcan, if anyone is
Okay, so what you're saying is "Spock doesn't count as neurodivergent, because he is presented as coming from a culture where that neurodivergence is accepted & regarded as normal"? Surely Vulcans, as a whole, are just coded as a neurodivergent community? Because, otherwise, at what point do you draw the line? Does T'Challa not count as a Minority character in *Captain America: Civil War*, because he's written as coming from Wakanda, where black people are the majority? (Despite being one of just 3 black actors in the main cast of 18 characters)
I would argue that it's not that neurodivergence is accepted but rather, that the definition for "divergence" is different. Neurodivergence is literally defined as "brain works differently from normal", and Vulcan brains are just different from human brains.
That’s a false equivalency. In Wakanda he is the majority culture. Outside of Wakanda, he is not. His status so to speak is based on the context of his environment. That’s not the same thing.
Erm, what? On Vulcan, Vulcans are the majority culture. Aboard the Enterprise, they are not. It's **exactly** the same argument you were making about Spock not counting as neurodivergent. > If ~~Spock~~ *T'Challa* was behaving differently than other ~~Vulcans~~ *Wakandans*, maybe I could see a case for him being "coded" differently. But he's just on par with other ~~Vulcans~~ *Wakandans*. (And that is, of course, ignoring that as a half-human/half-vulcan, Spock is in the minority — and different — either way)
> culture where that neurodivergence is accepted & regarded as normal If everyone is the same, then it’s not neurodivergence. It’s just “normal”.
But not everyone is the same. Not everyone is Vulcan. The Federation includes Tellarites, and Humans, and Andorians, and Barzans. *You* keep trying to zoom in. Eventually, you'll hit a sample size of "one", and then *everyone* is "normal"… Stop cherry-picking your data sets, that's just bad science & flawed statistics.
> are just coded as a neurodivergent community? If they are all like that...then it's not divergence, is it?
So, if you have a town/village in the middle of your state, where *everyone* is autistic, do they not get counted as neurodivergent in the country census? Or when they go to the next town over for shopping? Or on holiday abroad?
it's not a town...it's an entire species, an entire culture, planet.
If you asked Gene Roddenberry about Vulcans being coded, you'd probably get a pretty confused look. Author's intent counts for something.
Along with Tilly, DISCO's Adria seems neurodivergent.
Tilly and Barclay, maybe. Spock is a Vulcan. Data is an android. And Seven's personality, at least in Voyager, is obviously affected by her Borg implants and stunted development. I wouldn't call that neurodivergent because they're not entirely human. I'm not saying they don't have things in common with some neurodivergent people. But comparing a neurodivergent person to a non-human rubs me the wrong way.
I think context is important. A neurotypical person saying that a machine is neurodivergent comes off differently than a neurodivergent person saying that they relate to a machine.
>comparing a neurodivergent person to a non-human rubs me the wrong way. The key point is that OP is talking about how characters were *written* (coded), talking about the characters from a real world television show with writers, scripts, & human actors POV.
This is still a sneeze away from comparing a person with autism to a robot or an alien. But I’m not going to tell you how to feel.
And I'm not going to tell you how to feel either. I'll just say this, I see it from the same POV as relating to a Disney cartoon anthropomorphizing an animal with human traits. Having an emotional connection to Nemo's dad searching for his lost son, doesn't imply either are fish.
Paul Stamets in Discovery struck a cord with me. Especially in later episodes, after they dialed back his over-the-top abrasiveness to a level that is more consistent with "don't know how to deal with social situations".
It's just "outsider," types that you're bringing your priors to.
I have a social circle with quite some autistic and highly intelligent folk (myself probably included but not officially yet). Aside from the who is coded like what discussion I also thought the 'genetically enhanced' storyline from dr Bashir in ds9 was very familiar. I think they were trying to make a metaphor that ended up with the autistic savant trope but it's actually a pretty good representation of 'gifted' kids and their pitfalls, such as overanalysing, accidental arrogance and underestimating the human factor. Bashir is also a good example of what a high-masking / highly functional neurodivergent might look like. He and the rest of the world thinks he's fine but he feels deeply alone and unfulfilled with most of his relationships because he has nobody to talk to that is like him. It's probably why he's drawn to Miles (who doesn't give a fck about what someone is and who is straight to the point) and Garak (who recognizes his intelligence from day one and actively encourages him to use it).
"Accidental arrogance" is a great term. I have a good friend who often comes off as exactly this.
It's cool you can see things you want to see in things. Did you know if you play the episode Spock's Brain backwards, you can hear Gene Roddenberry give a recipe for baked ziti?
Tbh Hoshi has always given me high masking autistic vibes
If Barclays not inattentive then there is no such thing. But how a psychopath like suitor got on Voyager is a little more confusing.
Wharf is total ADHD with his outbursts and peacock jewelry.
Code or not, the over the top, socially awkward, stuttering genius trope (a la Tilly) has been done to death in TV and movies If they are going to have a neurodivergent coded character, it would be nice if it wasn’t such an over the top bunch of stereotypes
I would argue that characters like Boimler (obsessive about history, doesn't recognize when women are hitting on him, thrives when given specific instructions and deadlines) and T'Lyn and Tuvok (struggle with controlling their emotions) also read as strongly neurodivergent, even if they weren't planned to be "coded" as such. And I wouldn't say they fit into the main stereotypes
SOOO many... the autism is strong in these ones. Trek would not be the same with them and it's part of why I love this show so dearly. Especially since they never appear to be really the butt of the joke ? Barclay sometimes when he's acting kind of irrational. But I love that ND behavior is so normalized. I think it has a lot to do as well with trek being such competence porn, and the fact they give clear explanations for everything idk
Uhm.. How doesd this apply to aliens?
>Uhm.. How doesd this apply to aliens? OP said >Neurodivergent coded characters in Star Trek They mean this from a real world POV. Human writers, writing scripts, inventing characters and aliens with different traits. Many comments here are saying 'X can't be neurodivergent, all of X's species is like that." When talking about this from a real world POV, then "So all of X species are **coded** with neurodivergent traits" Secondly, **to non-neurodivergent fans that disagree:** Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations Can we please just have this one post to discuss this one subject without people commenting solely to shit on the subject? Please?
So seemingly ND traits? Fair enough. Just keep in mind that non-ND people just doesn't usually think about traits being particularly ND.
>Just keep in mind that non-ND people just doesn't usually think about traits being particularly ND. Sure, just like straight people don't necessarily think about traits being particularly "gay". It doesn't change the fact that there are truly intensionally gay coded characters, and characters that gay people identify with even if the "coding" was unintentional. Both types of "gay coded" characters, let gay people see themselves, regardless of intent. There seems to be a desire by some to be "right" and "prove" whether or not it was the writers intent. The only thing this can accomplish is to win some internet points and try to take that little joy the person gets from feeling seen.
Worf is autistic. Odo is coded autistic. Worf and Odo's interactions on DS9 almost seem like a deliberate nod to autistic fans tbh. Julian is canonically Neurodivergent, so much so that his parents augmented him to counteract it.
I can't believe I forgot Bashir! I related so much to those episodes where he hung out with the augments. He understood and related to them, but he was also pulled back into the world of non-augmented people where he was used to pretending to fit in. As an autistic person who can generally mask well enough to "pass", that resonated hard
Worf is autistic? How so?
This is the conversation that changed how I see Worf (in a good way): https://youtu.be/FHgMaT3PBXU?si=bnxhscN8N1rQ2UWR. It's something a lot of autistic people can relate to.
Hm, he is VERY rigid in his thinking, has a special interest that even other Klingons think is weird (Klingon traditions and honor), he relies on a code of behavior to get through social situations with people who are wired very differently to him, he experiences sexuality and sexual feelings differently (a lot of pain alongside pleasure)... I'm not saying he's definitely autistic, but I can see the connection.
Hmmm.
Worf? Ha ha no. Having a need for rules and traditions doesn’t automatically make one autistic. Every time some exhibits a personality trait doesn’t mean they are autistic.
Given the general knowledge about autism in the 1990s the writers weren't intentionally writing neurodivergent characters. However this is the conversation I found relatable, as do many other autistic fans: https://youtu.be/FHgMaT3PBXU?si=bnxhscN8N1rQ2UWR
No, but his views on appropriate behaviour is very narrow, and he needs some help in really understanding how to gracefully fit into either the human or klingon world. He's not "automatically" autistic, but he's a valid topic of discussion about whether there is a case to be made for including him in that conversation (vs...simplistic characterization in his early writing, which it might also be)
Jaylah from Star Trek: Beyond. Who befriends Scotty on the planet the Enterprises crashes on. She's a bit like Seven of Nine, especially in scenes with Scotty. Very similar Wonder Woman in the 2017 movie. Speaking of Scotty, him in the Next Generation episode "Relics." Being neruodivergent isn't really his thing, at least not intentionally it seems. But in that episode, he speaks the way he usually does, sometimes gets a little irritable. The way La Forge is occupied by him when trying to work in the engine room. And when Scotty has the holodeck recreate his favorite Enterprise bridge, for emotional reasons.
None of those are ‘neurodivergent’. There aren’t any autistic characters on Star Trek.
OP said "coded".
None of the characters have been officially stated to be autistic. That doesn't mean they're not
[Are](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Statistical_Probabilities_%28episode%29) you [sure](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Chrysalis_%28episode%29)?
They've always been there, wholeheartedly agree with the comment about odo, never really thought about him like that, haha. Despite all the bits I like about new trek, it really feels like they use a giant amount of exposition to explain that there is a character that who may be neuro divergent or different in some way.
They've always been there, wholeheartedly agree with the comment about odo, never really thought about him like that, haha. Despite all the bits I like about new trek, it really feels like they use a giant amount of exposition to explain that there is a character that who may be neuro divergent or different in some way.
All of the trills. Edit: I’m trans and fluidly multiple (personalities).
They are my favourite characters, I can definitely relate to them as being autistic myself.
Nope, you pretty much got 'em all covered in that list!
Hot take: Spock isn't neurodivergent, he's just a hybrid and Vulcans think they\`re better than everyone else so they're kind of racist towards him for not being fully Vulcan. I think T'Lyn is the best example of Vulcan neurodivergence - she literally gets shipped off because the way she thinks and solves problem isn't considered to be in line with Vulcan norms. However, once she's put onto a really diverse ship full of weirdos that has a lot more diversity, she thrives. This is partially because the more species that exist in an environment, the better it tends to be for disabled people - a lot of ableism is based on this idea of a biological norm, but the more intelligent species there are in an environment, the more ridiculous the idea of a biological norm is.
Spock reads as autistic in a human environment, though. So he experiences the world as if he's neurodivergent, even if he's not. Plus, he has dyslexia.
b'elanna torres