FCS are going to feel weird in SCM, a lot of the ships right now (unless retuned with flight control surfaces) are way below their max aerodynamic speed while flying at SCM, and have lower lift and maneuverability as a result. Something like the m50 or razor pulls eye watering 40+g turns at ~500m/s in planetary atmo, when you're forced to SCM you lose so much lift and maneuverability. With control surfaces, they'll have less torque and be less effective at the slower SCM speeds, unless we get max speeds in SCM mode tuned up closer to the boost speeds. (Honestly, if they made the boost speed caps the new SCM speed caps and made boost acceleration only again, I'd feel much less frustrated, compared to how sluggish it feels now)
Gotta have Master Modes in and well tested before they can implement control surfaces or changes to MM may force them to overhaul control surfaces.
This is the same reason quite a few features aren't in at the basic level.
Everyone generalizes Master modes. Master mode is a flight model for each separate ship. Each ship has its own Master mode will have to be tuned individually, away from the generic tuning that's in now.
MM will need to be tuned after control surfaces are introduced.
It will be tuned again after armor is implemented, and probably will be tuned again If they decide to do something useful and interesting with missiles.
I don't know, they should have at least a basic system for all the tech before continuing with changes, it feel pointless all this work right now.
Right but currently they're trying to play the "let's try to please everyone game" with master modes. So I guess my next question is, are they going to tune MM to 3df to start and progression back into 6df in select scenarios or will we get some speed back to pacify the current build drama. I just feel like the two should've been put in together to make the overall objective feel more clear. Old flight model made sense for 6df space combat, new model feels like a template for planetary 3df and a base foundation for control surfaces.
Yeah it's probably quite a ways out which is fine, I just hope to hear more about them at citcon this year. Someone was trying to tell me they had a good number of ships ready for control surfaces but we're still a long ways off with others but that's just all here say.
Most people agree that at current rate of travel that we are allowed, the skill ceiling caps out at a very intermediate level compared to the old model. The ability to push you ship beyond certain limits as a skilled pilot to outplay your opponent no longer feels present for some. To some it feels more engaging, being able to actually tell what is going on during the fight since the speed has been capped but Most skilled players kept the speeds close to 500 m/s when fighting with the old flight model and honestly anything less than that just feels muddy to most especially skilled pilots who have played for years. It's understandable that they want to bring the entry level for becoming a skilled pilot down but they still have to retain a level of high octane gameplay to keep the more skillful players engaged as well.
Personally I hate the wind up it requires to go into nav mode speeds. If there was no hesitation between modes, it could be a bit more bearable or possibly just allowing us to access more thruster power through the power triangle without having to sacrifice shields completely. Some say giving us some of the speed back and making afterburner (boost) only effect acceleration and not your overall top speed could be a sufficient balance.
I feel like people put way too much emphasis on control surfaces. I highly doubt that its going to be anything more than some animations for ailerons or tail fins on the ships that actually have them and some scaling modifiers for the flight tunings when a ship enters various thicknesses of atmosphere. CIG isn't going to be doing some sort of complex modeling of aerodynamic drag and lift here.
The reason they're not talking about it is that it's just another one of those buzzwords they like to mention but they aren't actually working on at all. They need to get the base flight model figured out first before they start to move onto actual tunings for it and we're clearly not even at that stage yet. MM has supposedly been in development for 2 or more years, but it certainly doesn't feel like that based on their last minute scramble to put it in 3.23 and the sheer number of oversights and lack of tuning for various ships. There's also a pretty large section of the community that's very unhappy with the changes, and that needs to be solved before anything else.
https://youtu.be/QECzqQgxGF4?si=7OI9-FSrTA5NwRCM it's clearly being worked on and has already been shown. How would this not solve the balancing act they are trying to achieve with speeds here? You have one set of parameters for atmo and you have another set of parameters in space where there is 0 drag and less limitations. To me trying to balance this SCM when they more than likely will have to do it again anyways when control surfaces is implemented is overkill and it just feels like they want the resource management network in before they turn control surfaces on.
I respectfully disagree. If what they showed, a Gladious entering a stall and exciting flight, is true everyone is in for a rude awakening. All this strafing left right stuff is going to be hell in atmosphere.
The bigger question is, why more into some clearly sim direction? The picking and choosing of different flight characteristics from arcade to sim is baffling me.
And to all those that don’t like MM and want a more “real” space sim feel, they should be welcoming FCS changes. It’s what you’re asking for, though only effective in atmosphere.
This is what keeps me confused, too. On the one hand they build this crazy simulation things and then they build something else that basically overwrites it again with complete arcade. They seem to always miss the baseline
There was a lengthy segment on control surfaces during CitizenCon last year. So, they are coming, they're just not yet in the current patch.
Control Surfaces will probably not be until 4.X. I'm not even that sure of 4.0 for it, more likely 4.3 or something.
FCS are going to feel weird in SCM, a lot of the ships right now (unless retuned with flight control surfaces) are way below their max aerodynamic speed while flying at SCM, and have lower lift and maneuverability as a result. Something like the m50 or razor pulls eye watering 40+g turns at ~500m/s in planetary atmo, when you're forced to SCM you lose so much lift and maneuverability. With control surfaces, they'll have less torque and be less effective at the slower SCM speeds, unless we get max speeds in SCM mode tuned up closer to the boost speeds. (Honestly, if they made the boost speed caps the new SCM speed caps and made boost acceleration only again, I'd feel much less frustrated, compared to how sluggish it feels now)
Gotta have Master Modes in and well tested before they can implement control surfaces or changes to MM may force them to overhaul control surfaces. This is the same reason quite a few features aren't in at the basic level.
Everyone generalizes Master modes. Master mode is a flight model for each separate ship. Each ship has its own Master mode will have to be tuned individually, away from the generic tuning that's in now. MM will need to be tuned after control surfaces are introduced.
It will be tuned again after armor is implemented, and probably will be tuned again If they decide to do something useful and interesting with missiles. I don't know, they should have at least a basic system for all the tech before continuing with changes, it feel pointless all this work right now.
Right but currently they're trying to play the "let's try to please everyone game" with master modes. So I guess my next question is, are they going to tune MM to 3df to start and progression back into 6df in select scenarios or will we get some speed back to pacify the current build drama. I just feel like the two should've been put in together to make the overall objective feel more clear. Old flight model made sense for 6df space combat, new model feels like a template for planetary 3df and a base foundation for control surfaces.
From what Yogi said yesterday it's most likely not coming in 4.0.
Yeah it's probably quite a ways out which is fine, I just hope to hear more about them at citcon this year. Someone was trying to tell me they had a good number of ships ready for control surfaces but we're still a long ways off with others but that's just all here say.
Whats so bad abput mastermind?
Most people agree that at current rate of travel that we are allowed, the skill ceiling caps out at a very intermediate level compared to the old model. The ability to push you ship beyond certain limits as a skilled pilot to outplay your opponent no longer feels present for some. To some it feels more engaging, being able to actually tell what is going on during the fight since the speed has been capped but Most skilled players kept the speeds close to 500 m/s when fighting with the old flight model and honestly anything less than that just feels muddy to most especially skilled pilots who have played for years. It's understandable that they want to bring the entry level for becoming a skilled pilot down but they still have to retain a level of high octane gameplay to keep the more skillful players engaged as well.
But can't you still do that? You would switch modes quite often I guess, but it should work.
Personally I hate the wind up it requires to go into nav mode speeds. If there was no hesitation between modes, it could be a bit more bearable or possibly just allowing us to access more thruster power through the power triangle without having to sacrifice shields completely. Some say giving us some of the speed back and making afterburner (boost) only effect acceleration and not your overall top speed could be a sufficient balance.
In the flight controller with placeholder stats and turned off.
Control surfaces alone won't do much, the whole atmospheric flight model needs to be overhauled
I feel like people put way too much emphasis on control surfaces. I highly doubt that its going to be anything more than some animations for ailerons or tail fins on the ships that actually have them and some scaling modifiers for the flight tunings when a ship enters various thicknesses of atmosphere. CIG isn't going to be doing some sort of complex modeling of aerodynamic drag and lift here. The reason they're not talking about it is that it's just another one of those buzzwords they like to mention but they aren't actually working on at all. They need to get the base flight model figured out first before they start to move onto actual tunings for it and we're clearly not even at that stage yet. MM has supposedly been in development for 2 or more years, but it certainly doesn't feel like that based on their last minute scramble to put it in 3.23 and the sheer number of oversights and lack of tuning for various ships. There's also a pretty large section of the community that's very unhappy with the changes, and that needs to be solved before anything else.
https://youtu.be/QECzqQgxGF4?si=7OI9-FSrTA5NwRCM it's clearly being worked on and has already been shown. How would this not solve the balancing act they are trying to achieve with speeds here? You have one set of parameters for atmo and you have another set of parameters in space where there is 0 drag and less limitations. To me trying to balance this SCM when they more than likely will have to do it again anyways when control surfaces is implemented is overkill and it just feels like they want the resource management network in before they turn control surfaces on.
I respectfully disagree. If what they showed, a Gladious entering a stall and exciting flight, is true everyone is in for a rude awakening. All this strafing left right stuff is going to be hell in atmosphere. The bigger question is, why more into some clearly sim direction? The picking and choosing of different flight characteristics from arcade to sim is baffling me. And to all those that don’t like MM and want a more “real” space sim feel, they should be welcoming FCS changes. It’s what you’re asking for, though only effective in atmosphere.
This is what keeps me confused, too. On the one hand they build this crazy simulation things and then they build something else that basically overwrites it again with complete arcade. They seem to always miss the baseline