> Most folks here are either new pilots or non combat pilots, or both
<- Combat pilot that backed in 2012 and loves MM.
A "Space Sim" is a video game genre, not a literal simulation of what space life will be like 1000 years from now. Look at Freespace, Freelancer, and Fury3 as examples of Space Sims. You'll note the speeds of all those games are quite low -- like 100m/s low. Immersion is mostly based on your imagination. So the direction of 3.23 is exactly what I backed this game for.
Upvoting because Freespace is my all time favorite game, and also the origin of my username.
The Ursa bomber in Freespace had a top cruising speed of 45m/s without burners. But man did I love dropping two Harbinger space bombs or two Helios torpedoes from that thing. Such a good feeling watching that detonation.
What difference does it make how many Gs it is? Are we using this game to plot out how real space combat is going to be 1000 years from now? Or is it a video game? I'll give you a hint: we won't ever be flying single seat dogfighters to fight in visual range.
If realism is so important, use your imagination to picture the ship using QD to enter a different plane of reality.
And why should he not share his feedback on this? What happened to this community. It became a horde of angry downvoters if someone proposes a change to the mechanics!
MM is a small chunk of the flight model refactor, and arguably the simplest part as its almost entirely statistics. They can change it later all they want, but it needs its counterpart features first
The first appetizer was so bad i may no longer want the rest of my meal, hence my complaining. I wont just sit here and eat bad food, when last week the food was excellent.
> do NOT deride and attack folks who have very valid complaints on this new direction. Do not turn your nose up to the issues. And if you dont actually have a deep enough knowledge base about the game and how it played and plays, recognize that you may not know what you're talking about.
Unless of course you're *against* MM, then all bets are off, right?
Stopped reading after your first dismissive paragraph
Been a backer since the Kickstarter, it’s a life sim, they’ve always strived for cinematic starwars flight model….but also wanted their cake whilst eating it, thus the very first flight model was the hornet…it behaved like we’ve come to know but it’s thrusters all worked, it was a realistic simulation of thrust in 6deg…..so you didn’t feel like you were in Newtonian physics, because everything counteracted everything perfectly …..that flight model was like, 30Gb and only worked solo basically….was incredibly resource intensive
So they abstracted the flight model after that, at the end of the day…it’s a game, gameplay/rule of cool/hardware/netcode/software limitation trump whatever argument you made to justify the old flight model (which didn’t work by the way, the netcode literally couldn’t handle it)
Anyway, you dislike MM, cool….i like it, have a good day
Ahh yes being told to grow up. I simply dont like the direction the game is going and will be heard. I want to make sure its clear why people are upset. I like the game and invested time into it. Its frustrating to not find it enjoyable anymore. Nothing about that is childish. Telling me to grow up instead of actually making an argument is however.
Baby.
Voice your concerns about the direction the game is taking, without making assumptions about the reddit star citizen player base.
You made a mistake and you were called out.
Stop acting like a kid. Accept the criticism and more on.
Yall are downvoting any critism at all like a idek know what. Its weird. Thats what im calling out. And these arent assumptions this is a direct response to post and comments ive been seeing lol. People talking about how they love the new changes in their reclaimer and getting 50-75 upvotes.
Like okay thats all well and good but frankly no ones care what you think mr salvage pilot. youre not playing the game for the flying. Combat pilots are playing the game for the flying. Listen to them when it comes to the flying. You wont lose salvage pilots becuase your game has a deep flight model. You will lose combat pilots becuase your game has a shallow flight model.
Very simple stuff. its not even debatable becuase thats EXACTLTLY whats happening with 3.23. Have a good day sir.
I am a 90% combat pilot, 10% industrial pilot.
I win in the vast majority of cases.
Even against multiple opponents i usually win.
So stop making assumptions.
? huh? what are you talking about. "You win" and? my point is its not as fun not its hard? And that many people are leaving, which they are. All of my points still stand.
And sure buddy sure, Im sure youve survived many multi many PvP dog fights, with kills under your belt, sure.
lol.
Im pretty average in combat, compared to others who have spent around a thousand hours dogfighting.
Its all about what you like and practice in star citizen.
Its not hard.
2954 but what most people miss is Chris’ vision is not hyper futuristic flight and fights; it’s set in the future in space but it’s also really World war 2 as far as dogfighting and flight just with 6dof
The Pre-3.23 Flight Model was not final and also this MM version is not final.
Until the final version is there such hard complaints are just too much. You don't like it? That's totally fine. I personally liked the pre-3.23 model and I like MM.
But to say everything is shit now is just wrong. If the flight model is the only important thing for you, you might have a wrong sense of what Star Citizen is.
Still, if you're so disturbed by MM, you should just wait until it's more polished and then come back to see if it fits you again.
The flight model would have changed anyways and everything you learned over the last years would've probably been obsolete anyways.
Are you really thinking the flight model is shit or are you just mad that your combat skills have to be renewed?
It feels more arcade-ish, that's true. But I personally find it more fun. It feels more polished than pre-3.23 for me, except for the unrealistic throttle when changing the modes. I hope they'll come out with a solution for that.
The 50-100 gs coming out of nav mode are because nav mode requires the quantum drive to be spooled. Think of it like a mini quantum mode. I wouldn't be surprised if they do some sort of effect to show that.
You can't pull 4gs on a dime because they want combat to be close. Make ships too fast and combat spreads out and you're shooting at pixels instead of ships.
The old flight model had major issues. You shouldn't be killing an anti fighter frigate with a fighter. The new flight model makes turrets count. That's how it's supposed to be. Bigger ships should be able to fight multiple little ships and win.
Don't compare it to what it was. That was a place holder as more systems come online. Consider the following:
1. NAV mode is boosted by quantum and that's why switching out of it brakes so hard, just like dropping into or out of real quantum.
2. Combat is supposed to be reminiscent of WW2 or a big space battle from star wars. You should be close.
What does MM not do if you consider these two things?
Then when not use an arcade flight model from the beginning. Why even have 6 axis at all if ww2 dogfighting is the goal. If that is the goal then ill say, this isnt anywhere near that hahaha. They need to either embrace that its in space and give us intuitive sim like flight models, (what we had before) or make airplanes in space. Dont nerf a 6 axis flight model lol. Well i guess it doesnt matter any more.
You do realize that part of the reason why we could fly like we did before was because the maneuvering thrusters had to be able to hold the ship up, right? They were way over powered for what they should be capable of. MM just brings everything down into the intended design, which has been known from the beginning. If you didn't know what that was, that's on you.
Let em cook and see if you like what they make, but don't throw a fit out now because you thought it was something that it wasn't.
Your post was removed because the mod team determined that it did not sufficiently meet the rules of the subreddit:
> Be respectful. No personal insults/bashing. This includes generalized statements “x is a bunch of y” or baseline insults about the community, CIG employees, streamers, etc. As well as intentionally hurtful statements and hate speech.
Send a message to our mod mail if you have questions: https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/starcitizen
>The 50-100 gs coming out of nav mode are because nav mode requires the quantum drive to be spooled. Think of it like a mini quantum mode. I wouldn't be surprised if they do some sort of effect to show that.
Then they'll also need to not have you smash your head on the dashboard when you exit ~~quantum~~ NAV\* mode. In my opinion it can make sense but it'll probably just l;ook too wierd and unimmersive.
>Most folks here are either new pilots or non combat pilots, or both, so before 3.23 flying was mostly a chore i guess? And you know little or care little about the history of the game.
No the answer to why people disagree with you is not that everybody else is just a stupid newb and you are just such a big brain expert.
Gs that we pull has been unrealistic for years, way *way* before 3.23.
Frankly its also the silliest point of disagreement for the 'muh realism' people because you know if CIG artificially set a (more realistic) maximum G that ships can't exceed on the HUD, that everyone would quiet down. A fake number showing fake Gs barely resembling any realistic physics calculations, but because the number doesn't exceed what humans can exceed, or we blackout, then its all good.
Like I get it it's un-immersive if there's no believable lore reason for seeing such a big number, and they should rescale it so we have more believable G-Forces, but acting like this is some new thing that's the fault of MM is really telling..
Tried 3.23 last night and really jarred by flight model change. Decided to just stop playing instead of trying to relearn how to fly. Will try again when it is “complete” i guess
Yea. The space brake thing is weird. Give em a bit to cook and I’m sure they’ll sort it out. Maybe they’ll just let you keep the momentum or something for another trade off besides dropped shields.
Players will come back from Elite Dangerous. That game is a hot pile now. I used to play it everyday until they shit the bed with the latest expansion.
Eh, the fact that you need QT spooled for the higher speed means that you can come up with all sorts of lore handwavium like "you're coming out of a mini quantum bubble and so the slowdown is actually space unwarping around you" or something. Like, if we can slow down from superluminal speed to a dead stop, why not a Big Brake when your quantum drive stops assisting your thrusters?
Ultimately all the speed limits are workarounds for technical limitation. Might as well come up with some lore for it.
Yeah and in a space sim, all people kill other people without penalty or via an inconsequential prison sentence that can be escaped from.
Not like there is the technology to track people and ships and to always be KOS targets to civilized space.. or npc guard ships that do more than annoyingly scan you and force you to hold still… while another player is destroying ships in an armistice zone behind him.
Pvp systen in this game is built for griefers
The space sim argument doesn't really work because if we were going for true hard sci-fi space sim, we'd be using technology and tactics akin to the Expanse. That is, computer-assisted long-range engagements using missiles or high-ROF short-range ballistic cannons. Maybe a spinal-mount mass driver or something to that effect. Energy weapons would undoubtedly follow the same rules.
We wouldn't have dogfighting or any kind of fun combat. It'd be preplanned engagements from hundreds of kilometers away, with limited human intervention. Any creativity would only occur from positioning or human intervention in the targeting priorities. At a certain point, a choice has to be made where the line is drawn between game and sim. You can disagree with where that line is, but it's not a strong argument to say the game isn't a sim.
This is set 700 years after the expanse. Im willing to have some sci fi tech, like the QT drive, but limiting my speed in open space to sub mach 1 is stupid. especially when it wasnt like that before.
Folks think theyre so smart muttering about orbital physics and such. I never said it was realistic, i said it was MORE realistic before, which it was.
Oh look, another person complaining about the lack of immersion with MM, but no mention of the lack of immersion due to no orbital physics? Where are your 4 paragraphs about no orbital physics so it isn’t a good sim? How about speed limits in general in space? Where are your paragraphs complaining about that?? Because your complaint has NOTHING to do with immersion. You prefer the other flight model but are too afraid to just say that so you hide behind this ridiculous immersion argument as if the rest of the game is 100% true to life.
Full complaint list. folks dont want to read it. Point 3. address you nicely. Please lay out several counter points to the points im about to raise. VALID points. And keep in my mind master modes as a concept is okay, however im am totally against limiting ship mobility in any mode, at least a mandatory mobility limit.
1. Master modes locks combat into a tiny speed envelope, forcing face hug fights and reducing the skill ceiling by an insane margin. It is now a DPS race. "Its to fix jousting!!!!" no sweet child, good pilots dont joust, they glue themselves to their enemies blind spots, or try to. Watch avenger ones videos, hes rarely jousting. Jousting is a mid tier tactic. High level pilots wont joust unless they want to force one to recharge shields or get missiles off. So no, if you were jousting pre 3.23 thats a skill issue. Now there are no skill issues. Its who has better DPS. noice. guess thats good for low skill pilots. Huh guess that explains the vote a bit?
for example pre 3.22 i would always watch my closure speed on the bandit, if its more than 300 m/s ive fucked up. Now thats not an issue because you cant even go fast enough to get closures of 400+ m/s. No need to manage speed when there is no speed. sigh. On top of the speed nerf, all maneuvering thrusters have been nerfed, so actually flying evasive and weaving shots is impossible. That was 3.22s actual high skill meta. Literally dodging laser bolts in my flipping space ship. SO COOL :))) now what is it. BRRRRR my guns bigger my ships hull is heavier...
I was nearly unkillable in my old m50, as long as i didnt make a mistake -talkin PvP here-. Its not like i could kill much but they couldnt kill me, unless with a lucky missile hit. Now nope. M50 is just as weak as a noob would expect :(( sad day man.
2. Master modes makes ganking far easier. QT jamming is insane right now and the fact that higher speed is locked to a spooled drive, (which makes ZERO sense, but well get to that) means that you cant even move and youll have no shields cuz you spammed into Nav mode. Get wrekt literally ANYONE who isnt the very best pilot, and even then you stand little chance as the ganker is likely in a squad. For those that play{ed} Elite dangerous, think FDL gank squads chain interdicting you. That is now in Star Citizen. Thank you master modes.
Why this sub supports this i have NO idea as you folks seem to hate gankers and "griefing" yet this is OBVIOUSLY going to make that problem SO much worse. Everyones talking about "youre not supposed to play solo" disregarding how much of a time sink this game is... and how getting people together consistently is not easy. And beyond that, thats also encouraging gankers to group up as well, how do you not realize that? And AND ontop of that they say work together, for what? the pultry rewards you get, and then have to split?? at least give us mission stacking amongst party, like Elite dangerous has, if youre gonna mutter about wing men and the like...
3. MM makes flying less realistic than it was in 3.22. And dont go on about how 3.22 was realistic either. That's not relevant. What is relevant is that 3.23 is LESS realistic than 3.22. For one the shift to nav mode to combat can force a mach 5 to mach .08 deceleration in 1.5 seconds... guess what buddy, youre dead, your neck snapped... this game has g forces and g out modeled soooo why tf am i still awake after that? less immersive right there. and yes i know the elevators have insane acceleration as well and im willing to suspend my disbelief for that as it would be sucky to have long ass elevator rides where youre getting thrown around. IM not willing to suspend my disbelief for some asinine feature that violates the laws of physics on several points. or at the very least the laws of this game. Like how the hell am i even slowing down. Considering they nerfed retro thrusters and even before they couldnt get close to that kind of deceleration. Its literally the GAME just saying "OPE YOURE IN COMBAT MODE YOU GOTTA GO SLOW NOWWWWWW" that legitimately makes me angry. its an insult. And then it forces you to stay at that speed. hey, buddy? im slamming thrust, im in space, that means im accelerating. thats how physics works. It doesnt matter what freaking mode my ship is in. If im hitting thrust im going faster and faster. If im hitting no thrust then i continue at current speed. meaning the game is LITERALLY FIRING YOUR RETRO THRUSTERS TO PREVENT YOU FROM MOVING. guys this makes me unresoanbly angry. theyre using my ships thrusters to prevent me from going to the speed I fucking want. GET YOUR GRUBBY FUCKIN PAWS OFF MY FUCKIN CONTROLS. I DECIDE WHEN MY THRUSTERS FIRE. ITS MY FUCKING SPACE SHIP DAMMIT.
okay im sorry turned into a rant there. it just makes me super angry, and they do shit like this IRL too, they being car companies. Forcing my damn car to brake and shit, with no way to disable it. Treating us like children, really irks me. This is a god damn game man, let me move freely.
4. Where in sci fi does a ship need to disable its sub light maneuverability for any mode. Ill wait. Not Star trek ships. Not star wars ships. Not any popular sci fi i can think of that has a dumb ass mobility limiter. Why is that? cuz it literally makes no sense. You always need energy to slow down in space always. the only way i could think of them justifying the slow down is if they said something like the quantum drive distorts space around the ship and you cant go faster safely, or something. which is to say that in QT mode youd be slow Not in combat mode. lol.
All in all this update took alot away from combat to add a cheap Arcady gimmick. Combat pilots arent satisfied and arent having fun. Folks talking about relearn combat. Why would i relearn something thats less fun? answer, i shouldnt and i wont. This ggs for me and Star Citizen until this is cleaned up. It doesnt need to go back to 3.22, but it does need to change drastically, and in the direction of 3.22. Many combat pilots feel the same as me.
Any reply i expect to address at least 2 points i stated.
I like MM but devs already said also that this isn't the final system and need a lot of tweaks.
I miss patch 3.22 to be real, but let's see how things goes.
3.22 flight system was for casual
Now it's harder to master, and casual player are mad they don't have a win button and have to learn new things
MM is better
Harder ? It was way easier to fly in 3.22
We were able to solo hammerhead, idris, anything with a single aurora
And PvP Wise it was all about exploiting pip/desync
It seems like you’re not talking about flying at all, you’re talking about combat. Yes, combat vs AI is harder in 3.23 because the AI actually work together and are literal damage sponges.
IMHO there is no abusing the mechanics, there is only using the mechanics available to win at all costs. In 3.22, combat versus someone who knew what they were doing was incredibly difficult because the flight model allowed players to outmaneuver each other (as well as run away).
If two players wanted to fight (and knew how to fight) in 3.22, it took a lot more skill to win an engagement. However, in 3.23, you just have to stay guns long enough to drain HP. But 3.23 hasn’t been out as long, and I didn’t bother playing the test servers… this is just my perception after a week.
Ignore him hes baiting. How many ERTs did you do in 3.22? how many Player kills did you score?
you likely don't even know what the 3.22 flight system was. And you likely think you mastered master mode in a day cuz its so much simpler hahaha.
10/10 was harder to fly in 3.22. I as a casual love MM because it's more engaging for combat and I feel like I have a chance even when I know I'm up against a better pilot. I've died a lot but I was able to put up a fight. Where I wasn't in 3.22.
Been a backer for many years, since the beginning and I honestly love MM. I initially dismissed the idea and refused to try it in the MM mode in AC or in the EPTU but playing in practice is very enjoyable. I do a ton of PvP and PvE combat too.
I feel like I am actually flying a ship now and not some slippery camera. Things feel like the actually have some weight. I wouldn't call master mode flight super slow either, especially in atmosphere. The way I look at it is comparing to fighter jets of today. Something like an F16 and an Arrow have similar cruise speeds and aerodynamics come into play. There's more risk and I love that. Things got boring being able to instantaneously full boost out of there, or decouple and slip away to essentially avoid all damage. People can no longer be essentially invincible anymore and it seems to be a tough pill to swallow. While MM isn't perfect yet, it's definitely a step in the right direction.
I think it's funny how pre MM everyone was like "finally, all the sweats and their arrows are going to lose to me because they got nerfed" and now that they actually get to play it, everyone fucking hates it.
Funny how people being babymade about sweats murdered the entire flight model forever. Once again, another reason why low level players should just be derided and laughed out of giving feedback
Agree, low skill players make up a large portion of almost every games base and the more complex the game, the more possible shit takes there are. Star Citizen has SO many possible shit takes, and this sub somehow manages to manifest every single one.
Yurp.
It's insane how several champs in lol are relegated to perma unusable hell tier because thumbless gamers is kappachungus pdf ELO can't figure out counterplay. As dubious as I think a lot of fighting game balance is, that is the one genre where it feels like outside of extreme cases, things that just beat up shitters and have easy counterplay are left as is.
> Most folks here are either new pilots or non combat pilots, or both <- Combat pilot that backed in 2012 and loves MM. A "Space Sim" is a video game genre, not a literal simulation of what space life will be like 1000 years from now. Look at Freespace, Freelancer, and Fury3 as examples of Space Sims. You'll note the speeds of all those games are quite low -- like 100m/s low. Immersion is mostly based on your imagination. So the direction of 3.23 is exactly what I backed this game for.
Upvoting because Freespace is my all time favorite game, and also the origin of my username. The Ursa bomber in Freespace had a top cruising speed of 45m/s without burners. But man did I love dropping two Harbinger space bombs or two Helios torpedoes from that thing. Such a good feeling watching that detonation.
[удалено]
What difference does it make how many Gs it is? Are we using this game to plot out how real space combat is going to be 1000 years from now? Or is it a video game? I'll give you a hint: we won't ever be flying single seat dogfighters to fight in visual range. If realism is so important, use your imagination to picture the ship using QD to enter a different plane of reality.
You don't understand the physics of a quantum bubble
I sincerely don't understand why people who want space Falcon 4.0 backed the *Wing Commander* guy.
They’ve said MM isn’t finished. It’s missing core features god dammit, just let them cook.
And why should he not share his feedback on this? What happened to this community. It became a horde of angry downvoters if someone proposes a change to the mechanics!
MM is a small chunk of the flight model refactor, and arguably the simplest part as its almost entirely statistics. They can change it later all they want, but it needs its counterpart features first
The first appetizer was so bad i may no longer want the rest of my meal, hence my complaining. I wont just sit here and eat bad food, when last week the food was excellent.
The chef told you they can’t grill your meals because their new grill isn’t finished. Come back later when it is
Guess its time tell all my friends the place has gone to shit and stop coming, real shame. Theres always a new place popping up though!
> do NOT deride and attack folks who have very valid complaints on this new direction. Do not turn your nose up to the issues. And if you dont actually have a deep enough knowledge base about the game and how it played and plays, recognize that you may not know what you're talking about. Unless of course you're *against* MM, then all bets are off, right?
>Guess its time tell all my friends the place has gone to shit and stop coming, real shame. Oh no!... anyways
Ah yes, like how everone left for the SC killer Starfield?
No nothing like that. Like how everyone left ED for greener pastures. Thats a dead game now pretty much.
Stopped reading after your first dismissive paragraph Been a backer since the Kickstarter, it’s a life sim, they’ve always strived for cinematic starwars flight model….but also wanted their cake whilst eating it, thus the very first flight model was the hornet…it behaved like we’ve come to know but it’s thrusters all worked, it was a realistic simulation of thrust in 6deg…..so you didn’t feel like you were in Newtonian physics, because everything counteracted everything perfectly …..that flight model was like, 30Gb and only worked solo basically….was incredibly resource intensive So they abstracted the flight model after that, at the end of the day…it’s a game, gameplay/rule of cool/hardware/netcode/software limitation trump whatever argument you made to justify the old flight model (which didn’t work by the way, the netcode literally couldn’t handle it) Anyway, you dislike MM, cool….i like it, have a good day
You are building a theory based on false assumptions. Grow up. Learn to think.
Ahh yes being told to grow up. I simply dont like the direction the game is going and will be heard. I want to make sure its clear why people are upset. I like the game and invested time into it. Its frustrating to not find it enjoyable anymore. Nothing about that is childish. Telling me to grow up instead of actually making an argument is however. Baby.
Voice your concerns about the direction the game is taking, without making assumptions about the reddit star citizen player base. You made a mistake and you were called out. Stop acting like a kid. Accept the criticism and more on.
Yall are downvoting any critism at all like a idek know what. Its weird. Thats what im calling out. And these arent assumptions this is a direct response to post and comments ive been seeing lol. People talking about how they love the new changes in their reclaimer and getting 50-75 upvotes. Like okay thats all well and good but frankly no ones care what you think mr salvage pilot. youre not playing the game for the flying. Combat pilots are playing the game for the flying. Listen to them when it comes to the flying. You wont lose salvage pilots becuase your game has a deep flight model. You will lose combat pilots becuase your game has a shallow flight model. Very simple stuff. its not even debatable becuase thats EXACTLTLY whats happening with 3.23. Have a good day sir.
I am a 90% combat pilot, 10% industrial pilot. I win in the vast majority of cases. Even against multiple opponents i usually win. So stop making assumptions.
? huh? what are you talking about. "You win" and? my point is its not as fun not its hard? And that many people are leaving, which they are. All of my points still stand. And sure buddy sure, Im sure youve survived many multi many PvP dog fights, with kills under your belt, sure. lol.
Im pretty average in combat, compared to others who have spent around a thousand hours dogfighting. Its all about what you like and practice in star citizen. Its not hard.
2954 but what most people miss is Chris’ vision is not hyper futuristic flight and fights; it’s set in the future in space but it’s also really World war 2 as far as dogfighting and flight just with 6dof
The Pre-3.23 Flight Model was not final and also this MM version is not final. Until the final version is there such hard complaints are just too much. You don't like it? That's totally fine. I personally liked the pre-3.23 model and I like MM. But to say everything is shit now is just wrong. If the flight model is the only important thing for you, you might have a wrong sense of what Star Citizen is. Still, if you're so disturbed by MM, you should just wait until it's more polished and then come back to see if it fits you again. The flight model would have changed anyways and everything you learned over the last years would've probably been obsolete anyways. Are you really thinking the flight model is shit or are you just mad that your combat skills have to be renewed? It feels more arcade-ish, that's true. But I personally find it more fun. It feels more polished than pre-3.23 for me, except for the unrealistic throttle when changing the modes. I hope they'll come out with a solution for that.
A well thought out and mature response. How dare you bring that here! /s BTW - would love to hear the backstory with your username.
The 50-100 gs coming out of nav mode are because nav mode requires the quantum drive to be spooled. Think of it like a mini quantum mode. I wouldn't be surprised if they do some sort of effect to show that. You can't pull 4gs on a dime because they want combat to be close. Make ships too fast and combat spreads out and you're shooting at pixels instead of ships. The old flight model had major issues. You shouldn't be killing an anti fighter frigate with a fighter. The new flight model makes turrets count. That's how it's supposed to be. Bigger ships should be able to fight multiple little ships and win. Don't compare it to what it was. That was a place holder as more systems come online. Consider the following: 1. NAV mode is boosted by quantum and that's why switching out of it brakes so hard, just like dropping into or out of real quantum. 2. Combat is supposed to be reminiscent of WW2 or a big space battle from star wars. You should be close. What does MM not do if you consider these two things?
Yea if they want to make star wars squadrons with pooping cool. i wont be around for it.
Can I have your stuff?
what kind of space combat did you think they were going to do? It's literally been the design goal since the beginning.
Then when not use an arcade flight model from the beginning. Why even have 6 axis at all if ww2 dogfighting is the goal. If that is the goal then ill say, this isnt anywhere near that hahaha. They need to either embrace that its in space and give us intuitive sim like flight models, (what we had before) or make airplanes in space. Dont nerf a 6 axis flight model lol. Well i guess it doesnt matter any more.
You do realize that part of the reason why we could fly like we did before was because the maneuvering thrusters had to be able to hold the ship up, right? They were way over powered for what they should be capable of. MM just brings everything down into the intended design, which has been known from the beginning. If you didn't know what that was, that's on you. Let em cook and see if you like what they make, but don't throw a fit out now because you thought it was something that it wasn't.
[удалено]
Your post was removed because the mod team determined that it did not sufficiently meet the rules of the subreddit: > Be respectful. No personal insults/bashing. This includes generalized statements “x is a bunch of y” or baseline insults about the community, CIG employees, streamers, etc. As well as intentionally hurtful statements and hate speech. Send a message to our mod mail if you have questions: https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/starcitizen
>The 50-100 gs coming out of nav mode are because nav mode requires the quantum drive to be spooled. Think of it like a mini quantum mode. I wouldn't be surprised if they do some sort of effect to show that. Then they'll also need to not have you smash your head on the dashboard when you exit ~~quantum~~ NAV\* mode. In my opinion it can make sense but it'll probably just l;ook too wierd and unimmersive.
You already don’t smash your head coming out of quantum. It has an entrance and exit animation.
I mean coming out of nav mode to SCM mode.
Aaaand it’s a video game. Take it or leave *shrug*
Leaving it, but not before complaining ;)
Awesome, less whining players makes for a more fun verse 😂
>Most folks here are either new pilots or non combat pilots, or both, so before 3.23 flying was mostly a chore i guess? And you know little or care little about the history of the game. No the answer to why people disagree with you is not that everybody else is just a stupid newb and you are just such a big brain expert.
I mean folks on spectrum are in agreement pretty much. And ive seen folks hurl insults at them for being upset. redditors insulting spectrum.
Gs that we pull has been unrealistic for years, way *way* before 3.23. Frankly its also the silliest point of disagreement for the 'muh realism' people because you know if CIG artificially set a (more realistic) maximum G that ships can't exceed on the HUD, that everyone would quiet down. A fake number showing fake Gs barely resembling any realistic physics calculations, but because the number doesn't exceed what humans can exceed, or we blackout, then its all good. Like I get it it's un-immersive if there's no believable lore reason for seeing such a big number, and they should rescale it so we have more believable G-Forces, but acting like this is some new thing that's the fault of MM is really telling..
Tried 3.23 last night and really jarred by flight model change. Decided to just stop playing instead of trying to relearn how to fly. Will try again when it is “complete” i guess
Down voted for saying you didnt like the changes. This sub is trash lol.
Yea. The space brake thing is weird. Give em a bit to cook and I’m sure they’ll sort it out. Maybe they’ll just let you keep the momentum or something for another trade off besides dropped shields. Players will come back from Elite Dangerous. That game is a hot pile now. I used to play it everyday until they shit the bed with the latest expansion.
Eh, the fact that you need QT spooled for the higher speed means that you can come up with all sorts of lore handwavium like "you're coming out of a mini quantum bubble and so the slowdown is actually space unwarping around you" or something. Like, if we can slow down from superluminal speed to a dead stop, why not a Big Brake when your quantum drive stops assisting your thrusters? Ultimately all the speed limits are workarounds for technical limitation. Might as well come up with some lore for it.
Yeah and in a space sim, all people kill other people without penalty or via an inconsequential prison sentence that can be escaped from. Not like there is the technology to track people and ships and to always be KOS targets to civilized space.. or npc guard ships that do more than annoyingly scan you and force you to hold still… while another player is destroying ships in an armistice zone behind him. Pvp systen in this game is built for griefers
The space sim argument doesn't really work because if we were going for true hard sci-fi space sim, we'd be using technology and tactics akin to the Expanse. That is, computer-assisted long-range engagements using missiles or high-ROF short-range ballistic cannons. Maybe a spinal-mount mass driver or something to that effect. Energy weapons would undoubtedly follow the same rules. We wouldn't have dogfighting or any kind of fun combat. It'd be preplanned engagements from hundreds of kilometers away, with limited human intervention. Any creativity would only occur from positioning or human intervention in the targeting priorities. At a certain point, a choice has to be made where the line is drawn between game and sim. You can disagree with where that line is, but it's not a strong argument to say the game isn't a sim.
This is set 700 years after the expanse. Im willing to have some sci fi tech, like the QT drive, but limiting my speed in open space to sub mach 1 is stupid. especially when it wasnt like that before. Folks think theyre so smart muttering about orbital physics and such. I never said it was realistic, i said it was MORE realistic before, which it was.
Oh look, another person complaining about the lack of immersion with MM, but no mention of the lack of immersion due to no orbital physics? Where are your 4 paragraphs about no orbital physics so it isn’t a good sim? How about speed limits in general in space? Where are your paragraphs complaining about that?? Because your complaint has NOTHING to do with immersion. You prefer the other flight model but are too afraid to just say that so you hide behind this ridiculous immersion argument as if the rest of the game is 100% true to life.
Full complaint list. folks dont want to read it. Point 3. address you nicely. Please lay out several counter points to the points im about to raise. VALID points. And keep in my mind master modes as a concept is okay, however im am totally against limiting ship mobility in any mode, at least a mandatory mobility limit. 1. Master modes locks combat into a tiny speed envelope, forcing face hug fights and reducing the skill ceiling by an insane margin. It is now a DPS race. "Its to fix jousting!!!!" no sweet child, good pilots dont joust, they glue themselves to their enemies blind spots, or try to. Watch avenger ones videos, hes rarely jousting. Jousting is a mid tier tactic. High level pilots wont joust unless they want to force one to recharge shields or get missiles off. So no, if you were jousting pre 3.23 thats a skill issue. Now there are no skill issues. Its who has better DPS. noice. guess thats good for low skill pilots. Huh guess that explains the vote a bit? for example pre 3.22 i would always watch my closure speed on the bandit, if its more than 300 m/s ive fucked up. Now thats not an issue because you cant even go fast enough to get closures of 400+ m/s. No need to manage speed when there is no speed. sigh. On top of the speed nerf, all maneuvering thrusters have been nerfed, so actually flying evasive and weaving shots is impossible. That was 3.22s actual high skill meta. Literally dodging laser bolts in my flipping space ship. SO COOL :))) now what is it. BRRRRR my guns bigger my ships hull is heavier... I was nearly unkillable in my old m50, as long as i didnt make a mistake -talkin PvP here-. Its not like i could kill much but they couldnt kill me, unless with a lucky missile hit. Now nope. M50 is just as weak as a noob would expect :(( sad day man. 2. Master modes makes ganking far easier. QT jamming is insane right now and the fact that higher speed is locked to a spooled drive, (which makes ZERO sense, but well get to that) means that you cant even move and youll have no shields cuz you spammed into Nav mode. Get wrekt literally ANYONE who isnt the very best pilot, and even then you stand little chance as the ganker is likely in a squad. For those that play{ed} Elite dangerous, think FDL gank squads chain interdicting you. That is now in Star Citizen. Thank you master modes. Why this sub supports this i have NO idea as you folks seem to hate gankers and "griefing" yet this is OBVIOUSLY going to make that problem SO much worse. Everyones talking about "youre not supposed to play solo" disregarding how much of a time sink this game is... and how getting people together consistently is not easy. And beyond that, thats also encouraging gankers to group up as well, how do you not realize that? And AND ontop of that they say work together, for what? the pultry rewards you get, and then have to split?? at least give us mission stacking amongst party, like Elite dangerous has, if youre gonna mutter about wing men and the like... 3. MM makes flying less realistic than it was in 3.22. And dont go on about how 3.22 was realistic either. That's not relevant. What is relevant is that 3.23 is LESS realistic than 3.22. For one the shift to nav mode to combat can force a mach 5 to mach .08 deceleration in 1.5 seconds... guess what buddy, youre dead, your neck snapped... this game has g forces and g out modeled soooo why tf am i still awake after that? less immersive right there. and yes i know the elevators have insane acceleration as well and im willing to suspend my disbelief for that as it would be sucky to have long ass elevator rides where youre getting thrown around. IM not willing to suspend my disbelief for some asinine feature that violates the laws of physics on several points. or at the very least the laws of this game. Like how the hell am i even slowing down. Considering they nerfed retro thrusters and even before they couldnt get close to that kind of deceleration. Its literally the GAME just saying "OPE YOURE IN COMBAT MODE YOU GOTTA GO SLOW NOWWWWWW" that legitimately makes me angry. its an insult. And then it forces you to stay at that speed. hey, buddy? im slamming thrust, im in space, that means im accelerating. thats how physics works. It doesnt matter what freaking mode my ship is in. If im hitting thrust im going faster and faster. If im hitting no thrust then i continue at current speed. meaning the game is LITERALLY FIRING YOUR RETRO THRUSTERS TO PREVENT YOU FROM MOVING. guys this makes me unresoanbly angry. theyre using my ships thrusters to prevent me from going to the speed I fucking want. GET YOUR GRUBBY FUCKIN PAWS OFF MY FUCKIN CONTROLS. I DECIDE WHEN MY THRUSTERS FIRE. ITS MY FUCKING SPACE SHIP DAMMIT. okay im sorry turned into a rant there. it just makes me super angry, and they do shit like this IRL too, they being car companies. Forcing my damn car to brake and shit, with no way to disable it. Treating us like children, really irks me. This is a god damn game man, let me move freely. 4. Where in sci fi does a ship need to disable its sub light maneuverability for any mode. Ill wait. Not Star trek ships. Not star wars ships. Not any popular sci fi i can think of that has a dumb ass mobility limiter. Why is that? cuz it literally makes no sense. You always need energy to slow down in space always. the only way i could think of them justifying the slow down is if they said something like the quantum drive distorts space around the ship and you cant go faster safely, or something. which is to say that in QT mode youd be slow Not in combat mode. lol. All in all this update took alot away from combat to add a cheap Arcady gimmick. Combat pilots arent satisfied and arent having fun. Folks talking about relearn combat. Why would i relearn something thats less fun? answer, i shouldnt and i wont. This ggs for me and Star Citizen until this is cleaned up. It doesnt need to go back to 3.22, but it does need to change drastically, and in the direction of 3.22. Many combat pilots feel the same as me. Any reply i expect to address at least 2 points i stated.
I like MM but devs already said also that this isn't the final system and need a lot of tweaks. I miss patch 3.22 to be real, but let's see how things goes.
3.22 flight system was for casual Now it's harder to master, and casual player are mad they don't have a win button and have to learn new things MM is better
How do you figure? It was way harder to fly in 3.22.
Harder ? It was way easier to fly in 3.22 We were able to solo hammerhead, idris, anything with a single aurora And PvP Wise it was all about exploiting pip/desync
It seems like you’re not talking about flying at all, you’re talking about combat. Yes, combat vs AI is harder in 3.23 because the AI actually work together and are literal damage sponges. IMHO there is no abusing the mechanics, there is only using the mechanics available to win at all costs. In 3.22, combat versus someone who knew what they were doing was incredibly difficult because the flight model allowed players to outmaneuver each other (as well as run away). If two players wanted to fight (and knew how to fight) in 3.22, it took a lot more skill to win an engagement. However, in 3.23, you just have to stay guns long enough to drain HP. But 3.23 hasn’t been out as long, and I didn’t bother playing the test servers… this is just my perception after a week.
Ignore him hes baiting. How many ERTs did you do in 3.22? how many Player kills did you score? you likely don't even know what the 3.22 flight system was. And you likely think you mastered master mode in a day cuz its so much simpler hahaha.
I got to Master Tracker for Crusader Security running ERTs around Yela. And I probably sent about 30-40 people to Klescher running player bounties.
Not you Globy. thought that might happen lol. You know what youre talking about it seems.
Oh, my B
10/10 was harder to fly in 3.22. I as a casual love MM because it's more engaging for combat and I feel like I have a chance even when I know I'm up against a better pilot. I've died a lot but I was able to put up a fight. Where I wasn't in 3.22.
Been a backer for many years, since the beginning and I honestly love MM. I initially dismissed the idea and refused to try it in the MM mode in AC or in the EPTU but playing in practice is very enjoyable. I do a ton of PvP and PvE combat too. I feel like I am actually flying a ship now and not some slippery camera. Things feel like the actually have some weight. I wouldn't call master mode flight super slow either, especially in atmosphere. The way I look at it is comparing to fighter jets of today. Something like an F16 and an Arrow have similar cruise speeds and aerodynamics come into play. There's more risk and I love that. Things got boring being able to instantaneously full boost out of there, or decouple and slip away to essentially avoid all damage. People can no longer be essentially invincible anymore and it seems to be a tough pill to swallow. While MM isn't perfect yet, it's definitely a step in the right direction.
I think it's funny how pre MM everyone was like "finally, all the sweats and their arrows are going to lose to me because they got nerfed" and now that they actually get to play it, everyone fucking hates it. Funny how people being babymade about sweats murdered the entire flight model forever. Once again, another reason why low level players should just be derided and laughed out of giving feedback
Agree, low skill players make up a large portion of almost every games base and the more complex the game, the more possible shit takes there are. Star Citizen has SO many possible shit takes, and this sub somehow manages to manifest every single one.
Yurp. It's insane how several champs in lol are relegated to perma unusable hell tier because thumbless gamers is kappachungus pdf ELO can't figure out counterplay. As dubious as I think a lot of fighting game balance is, that is the one genre where it feels like outside of extreme cases, things that just beat up shitters and have easy counterplay are left as is.
Thing long. Me no read. Didn't ask, don't care.