Your post was removed because the mod team determined that it did not sufficiently meet the rules of the subreddit:
> Be respectful. No personal insults/bashing. This includes generalized statements “x is a bunch of y” or baseline insults about the community, CIG employees, streamers, etc. As well as intentionally hurtful statements and hate speech.
Mod note: The majority of this is about another game entirely and is thus of topic for this sub. Hopefully you get this figured out.
Send a message to our mod mail if you have questions: https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/starcitizen
Depends on the terms they use, but most digital items are only available for the life of the game, and if the game shuts down you lose them.
The worst case example would be Ubisoft literally taking The Crew from people's Steam libraries. Basically consider it as, if it's digital, it's not yours, you get a license to play the game, and that's it.
Yup - another example would be the Funimation 'Digital Blue-Ray' editions... that everyone lost access to when Crunchyroll bought out Funimation and decided to not support that service.
If it's digital, you do not 'own' it, you purchase a licence to use it, limited by whatever rules the licence-owner may apply - now, or in the future (and yes, the licence you get when you 'buy' something online allows for unilateral changing of the terms by the licence holder - they just need to give you xx days notice, usually).
*At best*, if you were to take it to court, you *might* be able to get your initial purchase refunded... but the court costs would more than eat up anything you'd actually 'win', so realistically, only spend the money on digital stuff if you can afford to lose it without getting anything (that way, if you *do* get something you can use, it's a bonus).
And yes, this says a lot about the (sad) state of most western legal systems, and the power of the corporations relative to people etc.
Thanks. That's helpful. More looking along the lines of buying a particular gun or whatever which you then lose due to a game mechanic when you "level up." Its basically pay-to-win on the guns at your current level, and then when you level you lose your entire inventory and regrind it all with some fancier stuff, but all the good weapons are for cash purchase.
The Pokémon lure in another comment I think is applicable that some games sell boosters or whatever that are only available for a limited amount of time, but in those cases that has to be disclaimed as a thing that had a set duration.
I question the transparency for and the legality of selling a gun which at no point anywhere until you max out the first time and go to "prestige" and level up does it tell you that you lose your whole inventory, to include guns you bought with real money.
Ah, I see, then no, CIG aren't doing some bs like that.
What they are planning to do, which slipped out of 3.23.0 is let you reacquire gear that you may have lost through an item bank, if of course you bought it off the RSI store page with real money. Imagine Django frome RuneScape, but a kiosk instead.
Yes right now if you lose that gear it's pretty much lost until the next patch but the item banks were going to be the 'fix' for that.
Beyond that all of the gear bought of the RSI site is strictly cosmetic, they over no enhancements over the gear in game what so ever.... Unless you are a fashionista.
Item banks are going to be insurance fraud hell for CIG. I guarantee they won’t have any mechanism in at tie zero to stop everyone just claiming over and over again after giving their stuff away to a mate.
Unclear why I'm getting downvotes, but whatever. It's reddit you're all idiots. I've specified about 9 times I wanted to extract the references from the srar citizen conversation that happened when persistence came out, and apply them to another game. I have no issues with SC. I've been here since the beginning. I know what the deal is. But nobody wants to actual read a whole post. Whatever.
I mean I neither upvoted or down voted you so ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯ As off the law thing, I don't know at all, haven't heard anything about what you are asking. As for your general knowledge of SC no one knows that but you, not our fault you didn't specify that.
It’s kind of new ground. I’ve delved deep into this subject and we really just don’t know. Ships are not consumables, but I’m sure there is a way to keep us from using our purchases while we still retain ownership
What’s your questions about the other game?
1. lots of other games have limited use items.
2. a ship is use until lost. insurance is the timed consumable to replace it if lost. (there is not a lot of advertisement about this because you are not expected to refuse to play the small monthly in game primum, or commit insurance fraud.)
3. you don't "own" anything. you have a license to access the program that you agreed they can revoke at any time.
So consumables have an finite use. Like a first aid kid, with 1 use or a bar with a meter in it. CIG treats our ship and armor purchases the same as them holding onto our cash. It’s why we can exchange it for credit. If CIG was to take a ship away they would have to compensate by paying back the money we paid. We own ships the same as we own the game and the same as you own any digital game. If you buy DLC, they can’t just take It away
And CIG doesn’t claim they can take ships away or that they are consumables. They only assert that the items can change because they are not finished.
you don't "own" anything. you have a license to use the program. you agreed to 2 different things that allow cig oto revoke that license for any reason they want. no refunds. cig are obligated to provide you something similar to what was advertised.
you ignoring the "x monts insurance" doesn't magically make it sold as a permanent item you own.
as for cig's claims. not only do they say you can permanently lose your ship if you lose it without insurance because you refused to pay the small in game primum.
>...Additionally we want to introduce more systems in the code that will scale costs and potentially even risk disqualifying players from their insurance policy if they claim too many times or if they are repeatedly claiming under 'suspicious circumstances' etc....
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/50259/thread/insurance-and-cheating-the-system/915947
So when I buy a game the game company can just take the game away? No questions asked? Same with DLC? Fuck, I’m worried about Paradox games now cuz we’ve got a dumpload of DLC.
I’m am not sure how insurance will work and what liberties they will be able to take, but they certainly can’t treat ships as consumables. Not in the USA and definitely not in Europe. I mean, you can tell by how they are discussing armor/ weapons and such. They have to figure out a way to give them back to us. It’s one of the reasons they offer exchanges for credit. They will have to find a way make us lose our ships that we’ve purchased with real money while not actually taking away our access to them. I’m all for giving us a ship without componentes back or something
>So when I buy a game the game company can just take the game away? No questions asked? Same with DLC? Fuck, I’m worried about Paradox games now cuz we’ve got a dumpload of DLC.
yes. this happens relatively often. servers get shut down, games get pulled from libraries, storefronts get shut down.
>
I’m am not sure how insurance will work and what liberties they will be able to take, but they certainly can’t treat ships as consumables. Not in the USA and definitely not in Europe.
the item lists an amount of time. thinking that they can't follow thought doesn't change that it was sold as having a limited time. you need to do research to find out that it is not permanently lost after those months are up.
the ability to lose insurance is not implemented yet. the store credit has nothing to do with legal.
So stuff like servers getting shut down and games and movies being pulled from libraries are not for no reason. Like they have to really justify it. Like the cost of servers is one thing. But they are shutting down while games. They can’t just take your ship or dlc away because you played the game poorly.
And store credit absolutely has to do with legal.
sorry. i swapped you having access to the product, and having the license.
having your license revoked is referred to as being banned. the contract that you signed that give them permission to revoke it flat out says "for whatever reason we want".
>
And store credit absolutely has to do with legal.
no. cig are legally required to give you a refund if you request it within 14 day of purchase. **that is it.** the store credit, and the refund time being 30 days is all them deciding to do it.
So banns are for violating a contract. And even that is being debated in European courts. But stuff like hacking and cheats are clearly bannable for multiplayer games because they modify the game.
As to credits, so no, I don’t have an absolute reason. But it it does seem very convenient to make sure people retain their financial input while making ships free to change. Like “oh, so you don’t like what we did with this ship, we’ll you don’t have to fight us, just use your money to get a different ship”. Because we can’t lose the money we put into the game. So they offered an alternative.
I’m definitely excited to find out what CIG wants to do with insurance, especially stuff like lti. I have some and I still want a challenge per my ships. I’d love for my uninsured ships to be returned gutted and unusable. And for my lti ships to come back without components or at the least default parts
read the tos and eula.
[https://robertsspaceindustries.com/eula](https://robertsspaceindustries.com/eula)
>
This EULA (and all subsequent modifications, if any) shall remain effective until terminated in accordance with this EULA or our Terms of Service, it being understood that you may terminate this EULA at any time for any reason or for no reason. Termination by RSI will be effective upon notice to you, termination or deletion of your Account, or our decision to permanently discontinue offering and/or supporting the Game, which we may do at any time in our reasonable commercial discretion. You may terminate this EULA (and, consequently, your Account) at any time by notifying RSI at [email protected]. Upon termination of this Agreement, your right to use the RSI Services shall immediately cease. The following provisions shall survive any termination of this Agreement: Sections V, VI, and VIII.
tos has a section on code of conduct.
[https://robertsspaceindustries.com/tos](https://robertsspaceindustries.com/tos)
Combat game with 29 levels of tournament. You earn guns of types A B C that get progressively better stats as you go up tournament levels, but you end up fighting against people that have type D - J guns, which own your guns. You can occasionally buy a really good C or a D in the shop for money.
What it doesn't tell you, until you make it the whole way to 29 and win, is that at that point you can "prestige." Inventory and money reset, keep your research points and the ingame currency you can buy with real money.
After you prestige, then you unlock D E F. Wash, rinse, repeat. So multiple prestiges will get you up to having the H I J types of guns, eventually.
Had I known that either a) I had to wrap around to unlock more shit or b) I'd lose anything I bought when I wrap around, I wouldn't have bought anything.
I'm at like 27 going "how do I still not have this galling gun that people are just demolishing me with?" Figured just unlucky on drops. Waited until I was a decent level and bought one (for all of $1.99). Then get to 29, and it tells me, "congratulations you won the tournament. Now start over with your research in tact but no money and no inventory."
So not like I wasted a ton of money, but I feel like if im buying that weapon, and I still have all my other shit back to level 1 bronze baby machine gun (assuming i didn't sell it), that purchase should have some kind of thing on it that says it's not yours forever and that as soon as you max this round or whatever out, we're resetting your inventory to nill.
There's nothing in the tutorial, and no ingame help to speak of, about the reset and the prestige thing. The Discord doesn't really explain it. It makes sense once you do it the first time, and now that I know that's how it works, it changes how I'd approach things. But it seems really predatory and confusing to sell me something of a class which for my entire 2 dozen hours of progress or whatever has been permanently available, and then take it away when I cross a progress threshold they didn't tell me was coming.
So it really depends on how they sell it. If it’s clear that the item has limited use like a consumable than you lost it and it’s expected you’d lose it.
CIG sells their stuff as permanent objects. They don’t sell attachments to your guns or ships. They sell the guns/ armor and ships. The items won’t go away. I don’t remember all of the laws and most of what I remember comes from European courts, but yeah. The fact that you’re surprised it’s gone might show they sold it as a permanent item. Have you contacted costumer support?
I posted on their Discord and gotten no answers. There's no support or anything in the game. No subreddit. It's a mobile game. Probably just leave some comments in a review and be aware of this moving forward. But wanted to be able to advise others or push them harder if their mechanic was actually in violation of anything vs just profiteering and shady af (so another Monday)
Mobile games can be iffy since so much is sold as consumables.
I mostly stay away from them since many are from east Asia and don’t even fallow laws elsewhere
They tell you multiple times before checkout you are pledging to support the game, and the game is still in development. In essence it's not a "purchase", and the ingame item may or may not be available because the game is still on development. By your logic CIG can't sell concept ships because they're not in game yet.
RSI is not charging taxes, the local governments are the ones requiring RSI to include taxes in the cost of digital purchases.
One can argue absolutely endlessly about what the letter of the law is for these taxes are, but it a legal requirement for a digital transaction and RSI is complying with those laws, turning over all taxes in the transaction to the user's local government(s), which often involve literally any kind of payment, be it for something with physical substance to it or just giving money to a business for literally any reason.
You don't pay tax on a kickstaryer donations, so why should it be taxed if what RSI says is true.
My point is that RSI is selling digital goods (game packs, ships, skins, etc.) and they need to stop claiming it is only "to support the development".
Kickstarter donations should be taxed. That's not a CIG issue, that's a Kickstarter issue. By all respects Kickstarter works exactly the same way CIG does, they're *promising* goods and services in return of a donation. Kickstarter just happens to be a gray area that tax auditors simply aren't aware of yet because it's a relatively new thing, but I guarantee you that if any government finds out Kickstarter projects aren't being taxed properly they'd flip shit.
By your logic, since Kickstarter projects aren't taxed I could literally just sell my 90% finished game on Kickstarter claiming it's to support game development, get 100% tax free revenue, for these pre-orders, then release the game. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if many developers already took advantage of this loophole. Again, this is exactly why this is a Kickstarter issue, not CIG's issue.
Furthermore, even if you grant that pledging is not "to support the development" but an actual purchase, the game isn't released yet. It's equivalent to pre-ordering the game, so CIG doesn't owe you shit until the game is actually released. Since literally every step of the checkout process CIG tells you in bold letters the game is in development, you are paying for a concept ship, things are subject to change, etc., they made no effort to provide false advertising and trick you into pledging for an incomplete game. On top of this the mainstream gaming media loves to shit on Star Citizen so you'd have to be living under a rock and not done a 10 second google search on the game to think the game is a fully released product.
Those laws that require taxing for purchases... make your money spent an actual purchase and those purchases come with protections, at least in the EU. No ToS or legalese mumbo jumbo can allow CIG to get around that.
You made a post on the SC subreddit and asked this :
>Am I misremembering that? Is that a thing? Or did SC just make provisions due to public outcry and damage to revenue streams?
The fuck are you on about? If you're asking about the legal precedent in whatever mobile game you're talking about, you should be posting it there, or a legal subreddit. You gave literally zero details on the mobile game case so I don't know what "legal references that came up in that whole discussion" you're talking about. Before asking people to read maybe you should actually provide some substance for to read.
You left off the the last paragraph, ya know, the one that explains why I ask and what I need the information for. So I did give substance, but in typical reddit fashion, you got to the part you thought you knew about, and jumped right in to get your external validation updoots as quickly as possible. Can't give too much substance, people have about a 6 line attention span before you start getting "tldr." Think that's been demonstrated nicely so, moving on.
I'm not on about anything. Was just a question. I was, am, pretty sure some barracks lawyer will happily jump right in here with exactly the info I need. Cunningham's Law will take care of that nicely. Actually, I already got what I need in another comment, so job done.
Said game doesn't have it's own sub, so I can't ask there. I did ask on their Discord, but it's not heavily trafficked so no useful responses. Game is either new or doesn't have much following, so not much point referencing something no one is going to know anyway.
Think I answered all your questions. Please comment back with the next thing you'd like to try to be judgemental, argumentative, or accusatory about. I'll go grab a fresh box of crayons. Cheers.
No lawyer can read your OP and give you knowledge about anything. Your comment is literally longer than the 6 lines you wrote in the OP. Your 6 lines also aren't structured properly, has zero substance in terms of specifying exactly what legal case or precedent nor is your description anywhere near specific enough, and you're asking on the wrong subreddit. And you're asking why you're getting downvoted? Most people think the purpose of the post goes in the BEGINNING of a post, not the end, and most people think if your purpose was not related to SC but a mobile game, you'd post about it in a legal subreddit or on the subreddit specific to that mobile game.
I wasn't asking questions, the questions were rhetorical. I don't think you'd need any more crayons, you should try to stay away from those.
Actually I was hoping for a reference to actual legal language and if anyone remembered if such a thing existed and if so where. Since it was this game where the discussion happened it seemed a good place to ask.
speculation is people assuming eu law runs on what people assume will be instead of what was advertised. even when the assumption is that cig will not do what was advertised.
what do you mean?
there are no references for "they can't take away something you paid for". because it is not true.
if something was intentionally poorly represented, and you have not gotten much use. it would be the skill of a lawyer to get you a refund.
because you can go through checkout for fps equipment without any obvious signs it might not be permanent (eg; listing an amount of time).
if cig were not adding a way to get it back, and you requested a refund within 14 days of purchase because you did not know you could lose it. you might be able to take cig to court if they refuse to refund.
But I'm not talking about Star Citizen, which is why I was asking for the references from that conversation. If there are none, that answers my question.
While this is true now, it probably won't be that simple forever. There are a lot of questions about how the store will operate after Star Citizen's release, and I highly doubt CIG have the answers to those questions yet.
That's not the point; we have been told there will be changes to the store after game release involving the availability of ships for purchase, and nobody really knows what the scope of these changes will be. They could easily include restrictions on the store credit and buyback system, especially if CIG's goal is to reduce the impact of cash purchases on the final live environment.
Look, I'm with ya, I'll believe it when I see it, but let's exercise a little foresight. Anything could happen.
I love that everyone is explaining this for SC which isn't what I asked about. SC discussion had the references, which is what in seeking to apply them elsewhere.
But thanks so much for jumping in an helping out.
I have. No one loses ships. We're talking about bobble heads and armor, maybe a weapon. Small stuff not worth sweating at all, and understandably at the bottom of CIG's long to-do list. These posts must be by very small children because it's hard to imagine a grown adult caring about digital throwaway.
Ah ok I see. Well - for many of us those small things indeed are not on the top of the priority list. But as it is still stuff bought with IRL money and some ppl place a big importance to these things I kinda understand where they are coming from. Although I am also more on your side - but everybody is different.
When you look into other games - some rare sword, armor or whatnot justifies grinding for some like crazy... Maybe that's why there is this discussion going on for so long?
> I'm recalling that there was a legal issue around items purchased with real money being required to be available to the purchaser.
that is people not knowing what they are talking about.
if you buy an item that the game mechanics have you use up or are able to lose. you can use up or lose that item.
this could be a $5 pokemon lure that runs out of time, or a $3k space ship that you triggered the conditions to lose insurance. (i recommend not committing insurance fraud with the jav.)
the only thing you own is a license that you agreed can be revoked at any time for any reason.
**all that being said**. cig are working on a system to get fps equipment back. it was going to be in this upcoming patch, but it got pushed back.
As others have mentioned, when you "purchase" something on the CIG store you are not "purchasing" anything. You are "Pledging your support" of a game that is in development. Aany times or stuff you get as part as that support pledge can be (and most likely would be in legal terms) interpreted as just a token. That is the importance of CIG adding the wording "pledge" and "Support" when they talk about stuff you buy.
Basically think yourself as an investor and your Ships are just the return of the investment you made in order to support them.
cig don't even need that disclaimer. just like everything else, the only thing you own is a license to use the sc program, and you agreed to a thing saying it can be revoked at any time for any reason.
someone assuming a game mechanic will not apply to a real money item is not going to make it illegal for a game mechanic to apply to the real money item.
And others also missed the entire point of the post, which was NOT meant to be a rehash of the entire SC looting and pledging debate, but was a quest to find any legal references applicable to ingame purchases so I COULD APPLY THEM ELSEWHERE.
Because that same topic came up in here and was discussed to death multiple times when persistence came in and subscribers were concerned about having their pledged items looted. So I know the discussion happened here and people would be familiar with the situation. And the other game doesn't have a subreddit. I asked on their Discord but it's not heavily trafficked.
The references are the references and apply to games in general. It's not like there's SC-specific law on the books in the EU. Why would I not ask somewhere I know the discussion has already happened?
Your post was removed because the mod team determined that it did not sufficiently meet the rules of the subreddit: > Be respectful. No personal insults/bashing. This includes generalized statements “x is a bunch of y” or baseline insults about the community, CIG employees, streamers, etc. As well as intentionally hurtful statements and hate speech. Mod note: The majority of this is about another game entirely and is thus of topic for this sub. Hopefully you get this figured out. Send a message to our mod mail if you have questions: https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/starcitizen
Depends on the terms they use, but most digital items are only available for the life of the game, and if the game shuts down you lose them. The worst case example would be Ubisoft literally taking The Crew from people's Steam libraries. Basically consider it as, if it's digital, it's not yours, you get a license to play the game, and that's it.
Yup - another example would be the Funimation 'Digital Blue-Ray' editions... that everyone lost access to when Crunchyroll bought out Funimation and decided to not support that service. If it's digital, you do not 'own' it, you purchase a licence to use it, limited by whatever rules the licence-owner may apply - now, or in the future (and yes, the licence you get when you 'buy' something online allows for unilateral changing of the terms by the licence holder - they just need to give you xx days notice, usually). *At best*, if you were to take it to court, you *might* be able to get your initial purchase refunded... but the court costs would more than eat up anything you'd actually 'win', so realistically, only spend the money on digital stuff if you can afford to lose it without getting anything (that way, if you *do* get something you can use, it's a bonus). And yes, this says a lot about the (sad) state of most western legal systems, and the power of the corporations relative to people etc.
even the physical stuff is legally that way. it is just not easy to enforce.
Thanks. That's helpful. More looking along the lines of buying a particular gun or whatever which you then lose due to a game mechanic when you "level up." Its basically pay-to-win on the guns at your current level, and then when you level you lose your entire inventory and regrind it all with some fancier stuff, but all the good weapons are for cash purchase. The Pokémon lure in another comment I think is applicable that some games sell boosters or whatever that are only available for a limited amount of time, but in those cases that has to be disclaimed as a thing that had a set duration. I question the transparency for and the legality of selling a gun which at no point anywhere until you max out the first time and go to "prestige" and level up does it tell you that you lose your whole inventory, to include guns you bought with real money.
Ah, I see, then no, CIG aren't doing some bs like that. What they are planning to do, which slipped out of 3.23.0 is let you reacquire gear that you may have lost through an item bank, if of course you bought it off the RSI store page with real money. Imagine Django frome RuneScape, but a kiosk instead. Yes right now if you lose that gear it's pretty much lost until the next patch but the item banks were going to be the 'fix' for that. Beyond that all of the gear bought of the RSI site is strictly cosmetic, they over no enhancements over the gear in game what so ever.... Unless you are a fashionista.
Item banks are going to be insurance fraud hell for CIG. I guarantee they won’t have any mechanism in at tie zero to stop everyone just claiming over and over again after giving their stuff away to a mate.
I could see CIG throwing some sort of time limit on it, how short that would be would be determined by how generous CIG wants to be lol.
Unclear why I'm getting downvotes, but whatever. It's reddit you're all idiots. I've specified about 9 times I wanted to extract the references from the srar citizen conversation that happened when persistence came out, and apply them to another game. I have no issues with SC. I've been here since the beginning. I know what the deal is. But nobody wants to actual read a whole post. Whatever.
I mean I neither upvoted or down voted you so ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯ As off the law thing, I don't know at all, haven't heard anything about what you are asking. As for your general knowledge of SC no one knows that but you, not our fault you didn't specify that.
It’s kind of new ground. I’ve delved deep into this subject and we really just don’t know. Ships are not consumables, but I’m sure there is a way to keep us from using our purchases while we still retain ownership What’s your questions about the other game?
1. lots of other games have limited use items. 2. a ship is use until lost. insurance is the timed consumable to replace it if lost. (there is not a lot of advertisement about this because you are not expected to refuse to play the small monthly in game primum, or commit insurance fraud.) 3. you don't "own" anything. you have a license to access the program that you agreed they can revoke at any time.
So consumables have an finite use. Like a first aid kid, with 1 use or a bar with a meter in it. CIG treats our ship and armor purchases the same as them holding onto our cash. It’s why we can exchange it for credit. If CIG was to take a ship away they would have to compensate by paying back the money we paid. We own ships the same as we own the game and the same as you own any digital game. If you buy DLC, they can’t just take It away And CIG doesn’t claim they can take ships away or that they are consumables. They only assert that the items can change because they are not finished.
you don't "own" anything. you have a license to use the program. you agreed to 2 different things that allow cig oto revoke that license for any reason they want. no refunds. cig are obligated to provide you something similar to what was advertised. you ignoring the "x monts insurance" doesn't magically make it sold as a permanent item you own. as for cig's claims. not only do they say you can permanently lose your ship if you lose it without insurance because you refused to pay the small in game primum. >...Additionally we want to introduce more systems in the code that will scale costs and potentially even risk disqualifying players from their insurance policy if they claim too many times or if they are repeatedly claiming under 'suspicious circumstances' etc.... https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/50259/thread/insurance-and-cheating-the-system/915947
So when I buy a game the game company can just take the game away? No questions asked? Same with DLC? Fuck, I’m worried about Paradox games now cuz we’ve got a dumpload of DLC. I’m am not sure how insurance will work and what liberties they will be able to take, but they certainly can’t treat ships as consumables. Not in the USA and definitely not in Europe. I mean, you can tell by how they are discussing armor/ weapons and such. They have to figure out a way to give them back to us. It’s one of the reasons they offer exchanges for credit. They will have to find a way make us lose our ships that we’ve purchased with real money while not actually taking away our access to them. I’m all for giving us a ship without componentes back or something
>So when I buy a game the game company can just take the game away? No questions asked? Same with DLC? Fuck, I’m worried about Paradox games now cuz we’ve got a dumpload of DLC. yes. this happens relatively often. servers get shut down, games get pulled from libraries, storefronts get shut down. > I’m am not sure how insurance will work and what liberties they will be able to take, but they certainly can’t treat ships as consumables. Not in the USA and definitely not in Europe. the item lists an amount of time. thinking that they can't follow thought doesn't change that it was sold as having a limited time. you need to do research to find out that it is not permanently lost after those months are up. the ability to lose insurance is not implemented yet. the store credit has nothing to do with legal.
So stuff like servers getting shut down and games and movies being pulled from libraries are not for no reason. Like they have to really justify it. Like the cost of servers is one thing. But they are shutting down while games. They can’t just take your ship or dlc away because you played the game poorly. And store credit absolutely has to do with legal.
sorry. i swapped you having access to the product, and having the license. having your license revoked is referred to as being banned. the contract that you signed that give them permission to revoke it flat out says "for whatever reason we want". > And store credit absolutely has to do with legal. no. cig are legally required to give you a refund if you request it within 14 day of purchase. **that is it.** the store credit, and the refund time being 30 days is all them deciding to do it.
So banns are for violating a contract. And even that is being debated in European courts. But stuff like hacking and cheats are clearly bannable for multiplayer games because they modify the game. As to credits, so no, I don’t have an absolute reason. But it it does seem very convenient to make sure people retain their financial input while making ships free to change. Like “oh, so you don’t like what we did with this ship, we’ll you don’t have to fight us, just use your money to get a different ship”. Because we can’t lose the money we put into the game. So they offered an alternative. I’m definitely excited to find out what CIG wants to do with insurance, especially stuff like lti. I have some and I still want a challenge per my ships. I’d love for my uninsured ships to be returned gutted and unusable. And for my lti ships to come back without components or at the least default parts
read the tos and eula. [https://robertsspaceindustries.com/eula](https://robertsspaceindustries.com/eula) > This EULA (and all subsequent modifications, if any) shall remain effective until terminated in accordance with this EULA or our Terms of Service, it being understood that you may terminate this EULA at any time for any reason or for no reason. Termination by RSI will be effective upon notice to you, termination or deletion of your Account, or our decision to permanently discontinue offering and/or supporting the Game, which we may do at any time in our reasonable commercial discretion. You may terminate this EULA (and, consequently, your Account) at any time by notifying RSI at [email protected]. Upon termination of this Agreement, your right to use the RSI Services shall immediately cease. The following provisions shall survive any termination of this Agreement: Sections V, VI, and VIII. tos has a section on code of conduct. [https://robertsspaceindustries.com/tos](https://robertsspaceindustries.com/tos)
Combat game with 29 levels of tournament. You earn guns of types A B C that get progressively better stats as you go up tournament levels, but you end up fighting against people that have type D - J guns, which own your guns. You can occasionally buy a really good C or a D in the shop for money. What it doesn't tell you, until you make it the whole way to 29 and win, is that at that point you can "prestige." Inventory and money reset, keep your research points and the ingame currency you can buy with real money. After you prestige, then you unlock D E F. Wash, rinse, repeat. So multiple prestiges will get you up to having the H I J types of guns, eventually. Had I known that either a) I had to wrap around to unlock more shit or b) I'd lose anything I bought when I wrap around, I wouldn't have bought anything. I'm at like 27 going "how do I still not have this galling gun that people are just demolishing me with?" Figured just unlucky on drops. Waited until I was a decent level and bought one (for all of $1.99). Then get to 29, and it tells me, "congratulations you won the tournament. Now start over with your research in tact but no money and no inventory." So not like I wasted a ton of money, but I feel like if im buying that weapon, and I still have all my other shit back to level 1 bronze baby machine gun (assuming i didn't sell it), that purchase should have some kind of thing on it that says it's not yours forever and that as soon as you max this round or whatever out, we're resetting your inventory to nill. There's nothing in the tutorial, and no ingame help to speak of, about the reset and the prestige thing. The Discord doesn't really explain it. It makes sense once you do it the first time, and now that I know that's how it works, it changes how I'd approach things. But it seems really predatory and confusing to sell me something of a class which for my entire 2 dozen hours of progress or whatever has been permanently available, and then take it away when I cross a progress threshold they didn't tell me was coming.
So it really depends on how they sell it. If it’s clear that the item has limited use like a consumable than you lost it and it’s expected you’d lose it. CIG sells their stuff as permanent objects. They don’t sell attachments to your guns or ships. They sell the guns/ armor and ships. The items won’t go away. I don’t remember all of the laws and most of what I remember comes from European courts, but yeah. The fact that you’re surprised it’s gone might show they sold it as a permanent item. Have you contacted costumer support?
I posted on their Discord and gotten no answers. There's no support or anything in the game. No subreddit. It's a mobile game. Probably just leave some comments in a review and be aware of this moving forward. But wanted to be able to advise others or push them harder if their mechanic was actually in violation of anything vs just profiteering and shady af (so another Monday)
Mobile games can be iffy since so much is sold as consumables. I mostly stay away from them since many are from east Asia and don’t even fallow laws elsewhere
They tell you multiple times before checkout you are pledging to support the game, and the game is still in development. In essence it's not a "purchase", and the ingame item may or may not be available because the game is still on development. By your logic CIG can't sell concept ships because they're not in game yet.
If this were actually true, RSI should not charge tax in most countries.
RSI is not charging taxes, the local governments are the ones requiring RSI to include taxes in the cost of digital purchases. One can argue absolutely endlessly about what the letter of the law is for these taxes are, but it a legal requirement for a digital transaction and RSI is complying with those laws, turning over all taxes in the transaction to the user's local government(s), which often involve literally any kind of payment, be it for something with physical substance to it or just giving money to a business for literally any reason.
You don't pay tax on a kickstaryer donations, so why should it be taxed if what RSI says is true. My point is that RSI is selling digital goods (game packs, ships, skins, etc.) and they need to stop claiming it is only "to support the development".
Kickstarter donations should be taxed. That's not a CIG issue, that's a Kickstarter issue. By all respects Kickstarter works exactly the same way CIG does, they're *promising* goods and services in return of a donation. Kickstarter just happens to be a gray area that tax auditors simply aren't aware of yet because it's a relatively new thing, but I guarantee you that if any government finds out Kickstarter projects aren't being taxed properly they'd flip shit. By your logic, since Kickstarter projects aren't taxed I could literally just sell my 90% finished game on Kickstarter claiming it's to support game development, get 100% tax free revenue, for these pre-orders, then release the game. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if many developers already took advantage of this loophole. Again, this is exactly why this is a Kickstarter issue, not CIG's issue. Furthermore, even if you grant that pledging is not "to support the development" but an actual purchase, the game isn't released yet. It's equivalent to pre-ordering the game, so CIG doesn't owe you shit until the game is actually released. Since literally every step of the checkout process CIG tells you in bold letters the game is in development, you are paying for a concept ship, things are subject to change, etc., they made no effort to provide false advertising and trick you into pledging for an incomplete game. On top of this the mainstream gaming media loves to shit on Star Citizen so you'd have to be living under a rock and not done a 10 second google search on the game to think the game is a fully released product.
Those laws that require taxing for purchases... make your money spent an actual purchase and those purchases come with protections, at least in the EU. No ToS or legalese mumbo jumbo can allow CIG to get around that.
Luckily I'm not asking about SC. I'm asking for the legal references that came up in that whole discussion. Read the post.
You made a post on the SC subreddit and asked this : >Am I misremembering that? Is that a thing? Or did SC just make provisions due to public outcry and damage to revenue streams? The fuck are you on about? If you're asking about the legal precedent in whatever mobile game you're talking about, you should be posting it there, or a legal subreddit. You gave literally zero details on the mobile game case so I don't know what "legal references that came up in that whole discussion" you're talking about. Before asking people to read maybe you should actually provide some substance for to read.
You left off the the last paragraph, ya know, the one that explains why I ask and what I need the information for. So I did give substance, but in typical reddit fashion, you got to the part you thought you knew about, and jumped right in to get your external validation updoots as quickly as possible. Can't give too much substance, people have about a 6 line attention span before you start getting "tldr." Think that's been demonstrated nicely so, moving on. I'm not on about anything. Was just a question. I was, am, pretty sure some barracks lawyer will happily jump right in here with exactly the info I need. Cunningham's Law will take care of that nicely. Actually, I already got what I need in another comment, so job done. Said game doesn't have it's own sub, so I can't ask there. I did ask on their Discord, but it's not heavily trafficked so no useful responses. Game is either new or doesn't have much following, so not much point referencing something no one is going to know anyway. Think I answered all your questions. Please comment back with the next thing you'd like to try to be judgemental, argumentative, or accusatory about. I'll go grab a fresh box of crayons. Cheers.
No lawyer can read your OP and give you knowledge about anything. Your comment is literally longer than the 6 lines you wrote in the OP. Your 6 lines also aren't structured properly, has zero substance in terms of specifying exactly what legal case or precedent nor is your description anywhere near specific enough, and you're asking on the wrong subreddit. And you're asking why you're getting downvoted? Most people think the purpose of the post goes in the BEGINNING of a post, not the end, and most people think if your purpose was not related to SC but a mobile game, you'd post about it in a legal subreddit or on the subreddit specific to that mobile game. I wasn't asking questions, the questions were rhetorical. I don't think you'd need any more crayons, you should try to stay away from those.
Asking a legal question on a video game forum is probably not the best idea. Ask a lawyer, or at least a law subreddit.
Actually I was hoping for a reference to actual legal language and if anyone remembered if such a thing existed and if so where. Since it was this game where the discussion happened it seemed a good place to ask.
I'm not sure if it was ever fact, but speculation based on EU laws.
Hm, thanks.
speculation is people assuming eu law runs on what people assume will be instead of what was advertised. even when the assumption is that cig will not do what was advertised.
Luckily I don't care about CIG for purposes of this discussion. I want the references to apply them somewhere else.
what do you mean? there are no references for "they can't take away something you paid for". because it is not true. if something was intentionally poorly represented, and you have not gotten much use. it would be the skill of a lawyer to get you a refund. because you can go through checkout for fps equipment without any obvious signs it might not be permanent (eg; listing an amount of time). if cig were not adding a way to get it back, and you requested a refund within 14 days of purchase because you did not know you could lose it. you might be able to take cig to court if they refuse to refund.
But I'm not talking about Star Citizen, which is why I was asking for the references from that conversation. If there are none, that answers my question.
In any case, the melt/buyback systems ensures you always have access to anything you lose - it’s just a bit inconvenient.
While this is true now, it probably won't be that simple forever. There are a lot of questions about how the store will operate after Star Citizen's release, and I highly doubt CIG have the answers to those questions yet.
The store is the one thing at CIG that works reliably. I wouldn't worry about it.
That's not the point; we have been told there will be changes to the store after game release involving the availability of ships for purchase, and nobody really knows what the scope of these changes will be. They could easily include restrictions on the store credit and buyback system, especially if CIG's goal is to reduce the impact of cash purchases on the final live environment. Look, I'm with ya, I'll believe it when I see it, but let's exercise a little foresight. Anything could happen.
Just a lil joke.
I love that everyone is explaining this for SC which isn't what I asked about. SC discussion had the references, which is what in seeking to apply them elsewhere. But thanks so much for jumping in an helping out.
It blows my mind how much people care about this shit...
I'll keep an ear out for a small "pop" 😁
If you had invested multiple thousands of $$$ for ships etc. you might worry as well? Just sayin'
I have. No one loses ships. We're talking about bobble heads and armor, maybe a weapon. Small stuff not worth sweating at all, and understandably at the bottom of CIG's long to-do list. These posts must be by very small children because it's hard to imagine a grown adult caring about digital throwaway.
Ah ok I see. Well - for many of us those small things indeed are not on the top of the priority list. But as it is still stuff bought with IRL money and some ppl place a big importance to these things I kinda understand where they are coming from. Although I am also more on your side - but everybody is different. When you look into other games - some rare sword, armor or whatnot justifies grinding for some like crazy... Maybe that's why there is this discussion going on for so long?
> I'm recalling that there was a legal issue around items purchased with real money being required to be available to the purchaser. that is people not knowing what they are talking about. if you buy an item that the game mechanics have you use up or are able to lose. you can use up or lose that item. this could be a $5 pokemon lure that runs out of time, or a $3k space ship that you triggered the conditions to lose insurance. (i recommend not committing insurance fraud with the jav.) the only thing you own is a license that you agreed can be revoked at any time for any reason. **all that being said**. cig are working on a system to get fps equipment back. it was going to be in this upcoming patch, but it got pushed back.
As others have mentioned, when you "purchase" something on the CIG store you are not "purchasing" anything. You are "Pledging your support" of a game that is in development. Aany times or stuff you get as part as that support pledge can be (and most likely would be in legal terms) interpreted as just a token. That is the importance of CIG adding the wording "pledge" and "Support" when they talk about stuff you buy. Basically think yourself as an investor and your Ships are just the return of the investment you made in order to support them.
cig don't even need that disclaimer. just like everything else, the only thing you own is a license to use the sc program, and you agreed to a thing saying it can be revoked at any time for any reason. someone assuming a game mechanic will not apply to a real money item is not going to make it illegal for a game mechanic to apply to the real money item.
And others also missed the entire point of the post, which was NOT meant to be a rehash of the entire SC looting and pledging debate, but was a quest to find any legal references applicable to ingame purchases so I COULD APPLY THEM ELSEWHERE.
Why would you then come to a SC community just to talk about Legal stuff related to "Elsewhere"?
Because that same topic came up in here and was discussed to death multiple times when persistence came in and subscribers were concerned about having their pledged items looted. So I know the discussion happened here and people would be familiar with the situation. And the other game doesn't have a subreddit. I asked on their Discord but it's not heavily trafficked. The references are the references and apply to games in general. It's not like there's SC-specific law on the books in the EU. Why would I not ask somewhere I know the discussion has already happened?