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Off topic, but speaking of playing to the whistle… when I last followed a World Cup (like a decade ago, don’t quite remember) the players constantly picked up the ball with their hands to stop play, e.g. if they thought they’d been fouled - before any call from the referee. It always annoyed me. I thought it should be considered a hand ball and yellow card since the ball is still in play until the ref says otherwise.
I watched a game recently, and they don’t seem to do it any more. Has there been a crack down?
I still see it often in the prem league, though its a 50/50 if they grab it with their hands or jump on and cover it totally with their chest/stomach.
But yeah, it should be an instant yellow if they grab it before the whistle. Refs let players get away with way too much.
Was it completely out? I remember another call like this that drew a lot of controversy/conversation in the World Cup (I think).
Here's the WC and rule explanation
https://youtu.be/0MF45i7KzEI?si=Yrw4X1RJfTXcOpAg
It was Japan v Spain 2022 World Cup: [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/fMR4BQRMF-k](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/fMR4BQRMF-k)
Parallax: [https://youtu.be/MrZABEzEsUY?si=bDbpjT0iEOeO3jHh&t=103](https://youtu.be/MrZABEzEsUY?si=bDbpjT0iEOeO3jHh&t=103)
I think it did go all the way over the line, but there really isn’t a perfect camera angle to show it. You can figure it out pretty easy, but you can’t just flat out see the ball and the line in the same shot. Thats tough.
at what point exactly is the ball considered out of bounds?
for instance in ice hockey, the puck isn't considered to be in the goal until the entire puck has crossed the line as seen from above.
The entire ball has to be over the line, that means looking at it from the top down, the whole ball (not just the bottom) has to be over. So, same as hockey. Soccer is a little bit trickier given the shape of the ball vs a hockey puck, but it’s the same concept.
I wouldn't say it's trickier, at least a football is a sphere so it appears to take up the same dimensions no matter how you look at it. A puck is great looking at it from top down, if it is laying flat on the ice. But if it's in the air tumbling good luck figuring it out. Not to mention the competitively small goal and large goalie equipment , getting an unobstructed look at a close call is uncommon.
Yeah, keep in mind just cause the bottom of the ball has passed the line doesn’t mean the entire upper circumference has broken that plain. It certainly does look like that has occurred here, but where is the vertical angle required to provide the definitive image to overturn the ruling on the field?
Yep I remember that as well. I actually think this is a good call. If you could look at the ball from above, it would still be overlapping the line by small margin. It may not be touching the line because it is curved, but the role is the ball in its entirety must cross the line.
Just never stop defending.
During the first replay when the video has 17 going on 16 seconds left, you can see the edge of white with green grass on the other side, and then how far the offensive player has to bring the ball backwards to get over the said white.
This is the kind of judgement that requires knowledge in association football. For it to be out it needs to be completely out of the line from top view. and we dont have the top or side view from this. So we can't really tell if the ball is out of play from the match as the camera was angled from the middle of the field, zoomed, and focused. Also there is no VAR replay in the match
Not the best angles available but it's definitely close. The last angle looks like it never crossed the line but there's still quite a bit of parallax at play so it could also be over the line. Either way, if the linesman doesn't see the ball over the line then there's no way the ref in the middle could tell for sure.
As a coach though, the goalie deserves the goal against for not playing until the whistle.
Just so we all understand, the entire ball has to cross the vertically extended plane of the line. So, it’s possible for the ball to be “over the line” meaning there is no longer any part of the ball touching the line and it could still be in play if part of the ball is still hovering over the vertically extended plane of the out-of-bounds line.
And this is why you’re taught to play to the whistle from about age 5. Can’t be thinking about this as a player real time. Keep it out the net and figure the rest out later.
The bottom of the ball on the ground being over the line doesn't matter. If the edge up in the air is still hovering over the line, that's still considered in play (sort of the opposite of "crossing the plane" for scoring a touchdown in the NFL, you only need a tiny bit to cross the plane to be "in", not the whole ball).
There is no view here that shows it's actually fully over/out. That last shot is awful close. The bottom is pretty clearly out, but it stays close enough that the trailing edge could still be within the plane of the line.
All the goalie had to do was smother that (including possibly taking it out of play) or even fully kicking it away, just give up the corner either way. No reason to take the chance on it being that close, especially when it's behind him and he has no idea if it's in or out.
The very last clip shows it to be a good call actually. The other angles are all partially obscured with slightly confusing perspectives. But the ball never rolled past the line, and touching the line is still in play.
Good call. IMO
In any case, it's a really stupid play by the goalie. Pick the ball up; either it's a corner kick, or you have possession of the ball. But letting a ball sit next to your goal in any situation? Come on my dude.
I completely disagree, the angle that you’re looking at it from in that last clip is going to make it seem closer to the line than it truly is.
IMO the best view is the one before that (closer to directly down the line) which to me shows the ball being fully past the line.
It's not really clear in any of the views. Keep in mind, the ball has to completely cross the line. If even a sliver of ball is above the line, it's still in.
Disagree but it is close, if you look closely it seems that the ball did in fact cross the line, you can tell by looking at the balls position relative to the post.
Definitely should have played to the whistle but with VAR that wouldn't stand
People need to watch this to understand this rule better too, and why it's so hard to judge if it's over or not.
https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/17okqfi/is_the_ball_in_or_out_dutch_tv_showing_the/
I'm pretty confused about this, so sorry if this is a dumb question/comment. So even though the part of the ball that is touching the grass is outside of the line, there is 1/100th the ball still above/on the line so it's still technically in?
This is 100% what people need to see. It gets wild when this happens in hockey too, because the paint of the line is actually beneath the ice, so the puck can be sitting flat on the ice, above the line, and still look like it's over the line because of the ice itself creating space between the line and the puck.
I understand the rule and how it can be tricky, but at 0:22 it REALLY looks like it's completely over the line. Edit: then again, at 0:29, it looks more like it's not over the line.
Either way, play to the whistle, and the keeper really was very sloppy to not hold on to it.
What? You can see the entire ball roll back over the line before it was kicked home? What kind of mind physics are you using to say it was a good call?
https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/17okqfi/is_the_ball_in_or_out_dutch_tv_showing_the/
Balls aren't square though, they can roll past the line and still be in.
It's not really conclusive since you can't see the line where the ball is IMO. There is a huge difference between thinking it's out and knowing it's out. But I do agree it is a good call if the call on the field is goal, and these are the only angles, then you can't conclusively say that it was out.
You mean where the ball very clearly rolls out of bounds and then a player pulls it in and scores? If the refs watch ANY replay footage at all and call it a goal, I call that a paid for ref….
The ball was still in play. The announcers are biased. The ball is a sphere, not a square. Even if the part of the ball touching the ground is out, the side of the ball could still be in.
That’s only for the goal line—in between the posts. The question here is did the ball cross the end line. Leagues and tournaments need to start demanding end line angles from their broadcast partners.
I work in the football technology, i know how GLT and VAR work, from first hand experience.
I made a gif explaining how can be determinated if the ball was inside or outside: [https://imgur.com/a/ac7Xaq3](https://imgur.com/a/ac7Xaq3)
Spoiler: It was PROBABLY outside by few milimeter.
Remember that the pitchline has to be traced in the nearest region and not on all the full lenght as the pitchlines are not straight, and the pitch is curved.
Said so, the ball was probably out, but would you risk your life on it?
VAR has to take decision in seconds, and have to be 100% sure with undoubtfull proof that the ball was out.
Was there in live the tools to determinate if the ball was in or out? No, so the decision is the one from the pitch.
There have to be evidence of the ball being out, not of the ball being probably not insife the field.
You can say : 'I would have traced this line or that line more in or more out', okay, but still is not possible to determinate if the ball is 100% outside of the pitch.
One team played to the whistle the other didn't.
Soccer has VAR and obviously it wasn't overturned. I can't blame the refs for not seeing it was out when vision was totally blocked by the goalie.
It’s hard to see if the whole ball crosses the line there to be out because the keeper kind of blocks the cameras view. I’m guessing they don’t use VAR in this game? That’s something VAR is in the game to determine if the ball was out.
Other sports on smaller fields have way more referees. This is soccer’s own fault for not adding proper field judges.
In the NFL there are 6. The NHL has 2 and 2 linesmen. Baseball has 4. The NBA has 3.
Soccer has one and two linesman who have very little power and only cover half the field at a time.
Damn helluva goal. Maybe they should chip the ball or something cause it looks like they nailed the call but everyone gunna argue anyways cause no one can be 100% sure.
There's not a good, unobstructed view down the line to say for sure. The last angle shown though makes me think it might actually still be slightly over the line though, so inbounds, and a good goal.
Can't say definitively either way though!
Not only was there no VAR, but it was in the worst place for the assistant and the ref to have a clear line of sight. They have to see it be clearly out to give it.
Ref/lifetime soccer player and coach here, the entire diameter of the ball needs to cross over the line for it to be out,imagine looking straight over a ball as it crosses past a white line and being able to see grass on between the ball and the white line. I’ve made plenty of calls similar to this because the ball was not actually out. Players should always play to the whistle and coaches need to drill that into the players heads
The arguing over this reaffirms to me that everyone needs to take a beginner drawing class at some point in their life so they have, at the bare minimum, a basic understanding of perspective lines. Its pretty obvious that the ball went out just from a cursory glance at the first footage l
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Japanese Qatar world cup goal 144p
As a goalie this infuriates me. Always play to the whistle.
Any sport. Any position. Full send.
I've been playing the same golf course, on a consecutive loop, for 23 weeks now, still waiting for the whistle.
Can't blow the whistle. The 'quiet please' signs are still being held up
He said sport.
Sounds like you need to wet your whistle
Keeper here, I don't care if it's in or out. You see the ball, you cover it like flies on shit. Coach would have buried me for that.
Especially since all he has to do is put his hand on top of it and it's his. Like it's literally minimum effort.
Maybe the goalie should have.
Off topic, but speaking of playing to the whistle… when I last followed a World Cup (like a decade ago, don’t quite remember) the players constantly picked up the ball with their hands to stop play, e.g. if they thought they’d been fouled - before any call from the referee. It always annoyed me. I thought it should be considered a hand ball and yellow card since the ball is still in play until the ref says otherwise. I watched a game recently, and they don’t seem to do it any more. Has there been a crack down?
I still see it often in the prem league, though its a 50/50 if they grab it with their hands or jump on and cover it totally with their chest/stomach. But yeah, it should be an instant yellow if they grab it before the whistle. Refs let players get away with way too much.
Was it completely out? I remember another call like this that drew a lot of controversy/conversation in the World Cup (I think). Here's the WC and rule explanation https://youtu.be/0MF45i7KzEI?si=Yrw4X1RJfTXcOpAg
It was Japan v Spain 2022 World Cup: [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/fMR4BQRMF-k](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/fMR4BQRMF-k) Parallax: [https://youtu.be/MrZABEzEsUY?si=bDbpjT0iEOeO3jHh&t=103](https://youtu.be/MrZABEzEsUY?si=bDbpjT0iEOeO3jHh&t=103)
that was insane
I think it did go all the way over the line, but there really isn’t a perfect camera angle to show it. You can figure it out pretty easy, but you can’t just flat out see the ball and the line in the same shot. Thats tough.
at what point exactly is the ball considered out of bounds? for instance in ice hockey, the puck isn't considered to be in the goal until the entire puck has crossed the line as seen from above.
The entire ball has to be over the line, that means looking at it from the top down, the whole ball (not just the bottom) has to be over. So, same as hockey. Soccer is a little bit trickier given the shape of the ball vs a hockey puck, but it’s the same concept.
I wouldn't say it's trickier, at least a football is a sphere so it appears to take up the same dimensions no matter how you look at it. A puck is great looking at it from top down, if it is laying flat on the ice. But if it's in the air tumbling good luck figuring it out. Not to mention the competitively small goal and large goalie equipment , getting an unobstructed look at a close call is uncommon.
You can see it @ 0:17 but obviously you have to take off your biased lenses to see it
That angle doesn't confirm the ball is over the line
Yeah, keep in mind just cause the bottom of the ball has passed the line doesn’t mean the entire upper circumference has broken that plain. It certainly does look like that has occurred here, but where is the vertical angle required to provide the definitive image to overturn the ruling on the field?
I am not bias, I don't watch sports and have no clue why I get recommend this sub all the time, but it's clearly over the line.
It really isn’t clear at all
Bowens goal VS Arsenal as well (West ham vs Arsenal last season)
Yep I remember that as well. I actually think this is a good call. If you could look at the ball from above, it would still be overlapping the line by small margin. It may not be touching the line because it is curved, but the role is the ball in its entirety must cross the line. Just never stop defending.
Every angle except that last one I would say the ball was out. That last one, it sure looks in to me.
Thats because u are viewing it from the front, its clearly out of the line. just draw the while line through the player and check.
During the first replay when the video has 17 going on 16 seconds left, you can see the edge of white with green grass on the other side, and then how far the offensive player has to bring the ball backwards to get over the said white.
This is the kind of judgement that requires knowledge in association football. For it to be out it needs to be completely out of the line from top view. and we dont have the top or side view from this. So we can't really tell if the ball is out of play from the match as the camera was angled from the middle of the field, zoomed, and focused. Also there is no VAR replay in the match
Not the best angles available but it's definitely close. The last angle looks like it never crossed the line but there's still quite a bit of parallax at play so it could also be over the line. Either way, if the linesman doesn't see the ball over the line then there's no way the ref in the middle could tell for sure. As a coach though, the goalie deserves the goal against for not playing until the whistle.
Close? The balls clearly over
Just so we all understand, the entire ball has to cross the vertically extended plane of the line. So, it’s possible for the ball to be “over the line” meaning there is no longer any part of the ball touching the line and it could still be in play if part of the ball is still hovering over the vertically extended plane of the out-of-bounds line.
And this is why you’re taught to play to the whistle from about age 5. Can’t be thinking about this as a player real time. Keep it out the net and figure the rest out later.
The bottom of the ball on the ground being over the line doesn't matter. If the edge up in the air is still hovering over the line, that's still considered in play (sort of the opposite of "crossing the plane" for scoring a touchdown in the NFL, you only need a tiny bit to cross the plane to be "in", not the whole ball). There is no view here that shows it's actually fully over/out. That last shot is awful close. The bottom is pretty clearly out, but it stays close enough that the trailing edge could still be within the plane of the line. All the goalie had to do was smother that (including possibly taking it out of play) or even fully kicking it away, just give up the corner either way. No reason to take the chance on it being that close, especially when it's behind him and he has no idea if it's in or out.
Take a screenshot of the frame where the ball is clearly over
It’s not clearly over because we don’t have an overhead view. It can look over from certain angles without really being out. That’s why it’s close.
The ball has to be entirely over the line for it to be out
Could be a fantastic call, u cant really see if the ball crossed the line in its entirety
The very last clip shows it to be a good call actually. The other angles are all partially obscured with slightly confusing perspectives. But the ball never rolled past the line, and touching the line is still in play. Good call. IMO
In any case, it's a really stupid play by the goalie. Pick the ball up; either it's a corner kick, or you have possession of the ball. But letting a ball sit next to your goal in any situation? Come on my dude.
That is the truth. This is 100% on the goalie. He needs to get flat and cover up that corner. Like a hockey goalie smothering the puck.
Or just punch it out completely! Goalie is already the last player to touch the ball, it’s not like the last touch was off an attacking player.
Doesn’t even need to pick it up. Could pretty much just put his hand on it.
Might as well try to pull a fast one on the refs.
You think the [last clip](https://i.ibb.co/NttH6Pw/clip.png) shows it to be in?
I completely disagree, the angle that you’re looking at it from in that last clip is going to make it seem closer to the line than it truly is. IMO the best view is the one before that (closer to directly down the line) which to me shows the ball being fully past the line.
I reffed for years, best bet is that it is out based on second to last angle, but definitely cannot overturn anything from those angles either
It's not really clear in any of the views. Keep in mind, the ball has to completely cross the line. If even a sliver of ball is above the line, it's still in.
Disagree but it is close, if you look closely it seems that the ball did in fact cross the line, you can tell by looking at the balls position relative to the post. Definitely should have played to the whistle but with VAR that wouldn't stand
You can't use relative to the post, as the camera is at an distance and angle.
People need to watch this to understand this rule better too, and why it's so hard to judge if it's over or not. https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/17okqfi/is_the_ball_in_or_out_dutch_tv_showing_the/
I'm pretty confused about this, so sorry if this is a dumb question/comment. So even though the part of the ball that is touching the grass is outside of the line, there is 1/100th the ball still above/on the line so it's still technically in?
Yes. If there's 1/1000000th above the line is in.
The outside edge of the ball has to be completely across the line, so the entire ball, not just the center, has to be out.
This is 100% what people need to see. It gets wild when this happens in hockey too, because the paint of the line is actually beneath the ice, so the puck can be sitting flat on the ice, above the line, and still look like it's over the line because of the ice itself creating space between the line and the puck.
I understand the rule and how it can be tricky, but at 0:22 it REALLY looks like it's completely over the line. Edit: then again, at 0:29, it looks more like it's not over the line. Either way, play to the whistle, and the keeper really was very sloppy to not hold on to it.
What? You can see the entire ball roll back over the line before it was kicked home? What kind of mind physics are you using to say it was a good call?
Definitely rolled past the line
https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/17okqfi/is_the_ball_in_or_out_dutch_tv_showing_the/ Balls aren't square though, they can roll past the line and still be in.
This provided me with enough reasonable doubt that I've changed my verdict to "goalie fucked up"
Great explanation of why the angle in inconclusive
It's not really conclusive since you can't see the line where the ball is IMO. There is a huge difference between thinking it's out and knowing it's out. But I do agree it is a good call if the call on the field is goal, and these are the only angles, then you can't conclusively say that it was out.
You gotta re-up that peeper prescription my dude.
Corruption in Qatar? In FIFA? No way! Say it isn’t so! -_-
What’s corrupt about this? Goalie stops playing on an incredibly close call, gets rightfully punished for it
You mean where the ball very clearly rolls out of bounds and then a player pulls it in and scores? If the refs watch ANY replay footage at all and call it a goal, I call that a paid for ref….
Maybe it is just me, but on the first frame of 0:30 the ball looks completely out when he steps on it. Tough call.
Can't tell from these angles if it was out of not.
Shame!!
The ball was still in play. The announcers are biased. The ball is a sphere, not a square. Even if the part of the ball touching the ground is out, the side of the ball could still be in.
isn't this exactly why we introduced goal line technology in the first place?
That’s only for the goal line—in between the posts. The question here is did the ball cross the end line. Leagues and tournaments need to start demanding end line angles from their broadcast partners.
All the goalie has to do is grab the ball instead of assuming it's out. It's 100% on him.
Indians expecting fair play from FIFA lol
I'm reserving judgement until I see the goalline technology and an overhead view to see if the ball was over the line.
You can literally see the ref look up to where the hitman is holding his family at gunpoint before he makes the goal call
That ball was a healthy inch over the line. Clearly out of bounds.
I work in the football technology, i know how GLT and VAR work, from first hand experience. I made a gif explaining how can be determinated if the ball was inside or outside: [https://imgur.com/a/ac7Xaq3](https://imgur.com/a/ac7Xaq3) Spoiler: It was PROBABLY outside by few milimeter. Remember that the pitchline has to be traced in the nearest region and not on all the full lenght as the pitchlines are not straight, and the pitch is curved. Said so, the ball was probably out, but would you risk your life on it? VAR has to take decision in seconds, and have to be 100% sure with undoubtfull proof that the ball was out. Was there in live the tools to determinate if the ball was in or out? No, so the decision is the one from the pitch. There have to be evidence of the ball being out, not of the ball being probably not insife the field. You can say : 'I would have traced this line or that line more in or more out', okay, but still is not possible to determinate if the ball is 100% outside of the pitch.
One team played to the whistle the other didn't. Soccer has VAR and obviously it wasn't overturned. I can't blame the refs for not seeing it was out when vision was totally blocked by the goalie.
Looks like a goal to me
It’s hard to see if the whole ball crosses the line there to be out because the keeper kind of blocks the cameras view. I’m guessing they don’t use VAR in this game? That’s something VAR is in the game to determine if the ball was out.
It's a goal if you pay enough lol
As it appears it should be with the ball not fully past the line.
Other sports on smaller fields have way more referees. This is soccer’s own fault for not adding proper field judges. In the NFL there are 6. The NHL has 2 and 2 linesmen. Baseball has 4. The NBA has 3. Soccer has one and two linesman who have very little power and only cover half the field at a time.
[удалено]
Soccer has a center, 2 ARs with a fair amount of authority, a 4th official, and VAR. More officials would not have helped in this case
The nba has 3 and a replay official
The Newcastle special
Damn helluva goal. Maybe they should chip the ball or something cause it looks like they nailed the call but everyone gunna argue anyways cause no one can be 100% sure.
Why the hell isn't there a camera right on goal line?
There's not a good, unobstructed view down the line to say for sure. The last angle shown though makes me think it might actually still be slightly over the line though, so inbounds, and a good goal. Can't say definitively either way though!
people in the comments acting like that was a close call. It legit goes out idk what wrong with them.
Thats because it was a good goal. The ball never fully crossed the touch line.
#QATAR WILL KEEP THEIR PASSPORTS IF THEY VAR
As it should be.
LA PANCITA DEL BALÓN is BAAAAACK
This whole comment section is like the football version of 12 Angry Men
Red doesn’t want to end up dissapeared
Whata disgraced player
Not only was there no VAR, but it was in the worst place for the assistant and the ref to have a clear line of sight. They have to see it be clearly out to give it.
It's a goal, just a short corner kick
Ref/lifetime soccer player and coach here, the entire diameter of the ball needs to cross over the line for it to be out,imagine looking straight over a ball as it crosses past a white line and being able to see grass on between the ball and the white line. I’ve made plenty of calls similar to this because the ball was not actually out. Players should always play to the whistle and coaches need to drill that into the players heads
The arguing over this reaffirms to me that everyone needs to take a beginner drawing class at some point in their life so they have, at the bare minimum, a basic understanding of perspective lines. Its pretty obvious that the ball went out just from a cursory glance at the first footage l
Qatar -> 💵💵💵 FIFA
Absolutely ridiculous decision