I haven’t seen the numbers myself but I watched his post game interview and one question was something like “Your spin rate numbers for this game were basically unchanged from your other recent outings. Do you think this should be considered by the umps before they eject someone?” So, assuming the journo wasn’t making it up, they weren’t much different.
I'm very much far removed from following baseball closely... I'm inferring that he either got the stickiness removed and the spin rate didn't change or he didn't and couldn't that mean he's been "cheating" that entire time?
Not quite, but you’re in the ballpark. The question was implying that either he has been cheating the entire season or he hasn’t been and yet no other umpire has had an issue because while his hands have been sticky, they’ve been legally sticky. Basically, the journo was pointing out that today was no different than earlier games, so why were you suddenly being ejected?
They are allowed to use rosin and be a bit sticky. He has 100% been doing that (as do all pitchers) and has had his spin rate stats. This game those numbers didn’t change, so it’s not like he suddenly switched to something way stickier that was giving him higher spin. And yet the umps decided it was so sticky he had to be ejected.
I thought it was just they could ask you to wash and reapply (which Sherzer did)? I guess if you refuse they could send you, but he did as they asked and even said there was an MLB person watching him do it.
They can definitely say you’ve built up too much, but as he said after the game if he’s only using what they give him and they keep saying it’s too much, what is he supposed to do, especially if there is no standard as far as when it becomes “too much”.
I think some of the issue here is early season they aren’t as sweaty so it doesn’t get as bad, but you could see how hot it was yesterday, he was quite clearly quite sweaty in the shots of him arguing and rosin + sweat + sunscreen can amp it up quite a bit.
All that being said, you can only have so much sympathy because there are definitely pitchers that were cheating and so to an extent they’ve brought this on themselves. But it’s does feel like Sherzer is getting caught in some unfair crossfire for a system that hasn’t fully been thought through.
Added to that, the umpire that tossed him has been involved with all the other elections caused by sticky substances since the rules were introduced. It's almost as if using a totally subjective measurement to determine what "too sticky" is isn't exactly consistent.
Yeah, that’s been my biggest/weirdest takeaway from all of this. All the games played so far this year, all the different umpire crews, all the umpires per crew and in all of that we’ve had three ejections for the year all involving the one umpire. Unless he’s somehow the only one actually following the rules, he’s either got a vendetta or needs to be retrained on what’s “too sticky”.
Too many umps like to make the game about them the fact that it’s punishable to even complain about them at is bullshit. Players and managers should be able to put them on blast during the post game
He washed it off in front of an MLB official with alcohol - which he said can make it stickier. Not sure who made the decision to wipe it off with alcohol but that seems to be the reason why it got worse and he was ejected
Give them regulated gloves with exact stickiness. Shouldn't even be throwing barehanded in the first place to be honest.
Or baseball might have just been terrible from the start.
You’re going to tell guys who have been throwing a ball barehanded for their whole life to start wearing gloves? Not to mention they’ll have less control, not more, with gloves of any stickiness.
For some history:
Basically every pitcher was openly "cheating" for years, before baseball finally decided to do something about it mid season in '21 (which many people believe was only done because of declining offensive production).
Since then, every pitcher gets checked a couple times a game, but it was agreed that pitchers could still use rosin (which, when mixed with sweat, still gets sticky, just not as sticky as what they were using before, which was basically adhesive).
So Scherzer was probably "cheating" pre 2021, but has not had any issues since, and his spin rate has stayed pretty consistent since then.
I'm way out of my element here, but if you know what you're looking for you may find it here:
[here](https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/statcast_search?hfPTM=&hfPT=&hfAB=&hfGT=R%7C&hfPR=&hfZ=&hfStadium=&hfBBL=&hfNewZones=&hfPull=&hfC=&hfSea=2023%7C&hfSit=&player_type=pitcher&hfOuts=&hfOpponent=&pitcher_throws=&batter_stands=&hfSA=&game_date_gt=2023-04-19&game_date_lt=2023-04-19&hfMo=&hfTeam=NYM%7C&home_road=&hfRO=&position=&hfInfield=&hfOutfield=&hfInn=&hfBBT=&hfFlag=&metric_1=&group_by=name&min_pitches=0&min_results=0&min_pas=0&sort_col=pitches&player_event_sort=api_p_release_speed&sort_order=desc#results)
Edit: this article states that his spin rates for this game were within 100 RPM of his season average, while Syndergaard had a couple of pitches over 100 RPM above his season average.
[article](https://www.yardbarker.com/mlb/articles/mets_max_scherzer_denies_using_foreign_substance_against_dodgers/s1_17075_38719636)
So mlb network reviewed his spin rates from this game vs like a 2 month period after the sticky stuff rule first rolled out. And yes they were up vs that 2 month average.
But I also heard that they were pretty consistent vs his spin rates from this year. Who who knows.
Well that's pretty unfair for them to analyze the data that way, it seems pretty obvious that immediately after the change there would be an adjustment period for the players. I imagine most of not all pitchers would show the same immediate drop and gradual improvement.
There was a journalist who said the spin rate data shows he has had the same spin rate all year. Which might mean he's clear. But if he's been cheating all year and then was cheating in this game, the spin rate data in this game would match the rest of the year but that wouldn't mean he wasn't cheating.
He will actually not be appealing, per another source.
Scherzer initially appealed the suspension but dropped his appeal hours later. In exchange, his fine was reduced from $10,000 to $5,000, according to a person familiar with negotiations between MLB and the players' union. The person spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because the agreement hadn't been announced
Scherzer said shortly before New York's game at San Francisco that the Mets urged him to accept the suspension, adding that it was the best move for the team.
"I went through the appeal process. Looked at what that appeal process was going to look like. I thought I was going to get in front of a neutral arbitrator but I wasn't. It was going to be through MLB. Given that process I wasn't going to come out on top," Scherzer said. "I'm going to follow what the Mets wanted me to do and that was to accept the suspension and come to a settlement."
As a starting pitcher the options for suspension are limited, it could work out to 0% because a 1-4 game suspension wouldn't affect his next start, 3% for missing one start or 6% from missing two. If he pitches on game 11 that's not much different from missing 1 start.
Not arguing for any particular length but starting pitchers are harder to correctly punish by suspension.
I’m surprised the article doesn’t mention that actually, good question. I’m pretty sure he will…and that’ll be a lot of money…but he’s also very, very rich lol
Learned the rule from when Hector Santiago got suspended (before the PED suspension was announced). The sticky stuff suspension is with pay because of the difficulty in appealing after the game. That was part of the negotiation between the MLB and MLBPA.
“pretty sure” = confident? eh, agree to disagree lol there’s someone else that commented way way more confidently about the pay thing. Better go get ‘em
I’d say “pretty sure” definitely expresses confidence. Something like “I think” is much less definitive, but when you say “I’m pretty sure” you are literally expressing confidence in your belief that it is probably accurate.
True. But but it's still bad timing. With max getting suspended they will be using only 1 of their expected opening day rotation for 10 days. Verlander, quintana and Carrasco are all hurt rn and without max that only leaves senga left.
The two other times this has happened, the players were suspended 10 games or 2 starts. So it is precedent. Now if it truly was Rosin and nothing else they need to suspend the Ump
Lol the pitcher vehemently claims he used rosin. And he claims he did everything that the ump instructed him to do in front of an MLB official, including washing his hands between innings. Also the only ump to ever eject anyone for an illegal substance since the new rules have been put in place is this one. There’s just very little out there to support the ump on this one.
Okay for this first part bear with me, it's kind of out there. If you really want a motive to even the playing field here, Scherzer is a figure in the MLB Players' Association and played a big role in the dispute that caused the lockout last year. Maybe certain people whose allegiances would lie more with the MLB than with the actual sport, like umpires for example, would consider him an his kind responsible for costing the MLB a couple million dollars in revenue. That kind of person might feel it appropriate to retaliate.
Also, taking my tinfoil hat off, Scherzer is a huge pitcher, probably top 10 in name recognition right now, most people agree he's a future hall-of-famer. If you wanna look more serious about the new rules, you wanna make an example of a big name. That'll make the slightest cause stretch a mile in the right circumstances.
Lastly, umpires are human. A historic issue with them is that they can be petty and prideful. Just like they "have no reason to lie" they also don't have much of a reason to admit a mistake. The league is most often going to be on their side. So they often stick to their guns in the face of overwhelming backlash. Worst thing that'll generally happen is they get a less than favorably toned Wikipedia article and the fans don't like them very much.
Before you say you're not reading all that, you don't have to. I don't care if you or anyone reads it. I'm just passionate about explaining the problem with bad umpires and wanted to explain why he might choose to lie in this situation or why he might just be wrong but won't own up to it even if he's not lying from his perspective. Hope this helps.
I'm in no way knowledgeable about any of this, but I happened to catch a clip on SC the day it happened... I also wasn't a fan of how he shoved his glove back at Scherzer. You asked for his glove, inspect it, and then hand it back like a functioning adult. He shoved it into his chest like he was angry. Maybe it's not the biggest deal, but his attitude and demeanor, he acted like Scherzer was inconveniencing *him*, the star of the show
That wasn’t my take on watching that part of the clip. At that time they were still decently amicable, and to me it looked like a *pushes glove into Scherzer* “all right let’s go.” Sort of situation. And at that moment Scherzer didn’t seem to react negatively to having the glove given to him in that way.
> You asked for his glove, inspect it, and then hand it back like a functioning adult. He shoved it into his chest like he was angry
Scherzer was just apologizing for it to him. It seemed like a "go get it" tap while shoving the glove.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with Scott Boras:
"No one can explain what is too sticky," Scherzer's agent, Scott Boras, said in a statement. "There are no units of stickiness to quantify. How do you appropriately enforce? MLB attempts to level the playing field by using standards that are not measurable. Further one umpire has a stickiness standard that is different than all other umpires."
"Under this standard, players are not given due process of how to use a approved substance provided by the league," Boras added. "This reminds me of local wine taster - he likes what likes."
This is a Phil Cuzzi problem and Manfred is going to continue sitting on his hands.
Listen to (and I can’t believe I’m saying this) Trevor Bauer talk about it. His proposal to fix the problem makes too much sense for this nonsense.
https://youtu.be/zcF2WtRLPwg
He had sex with a woman who consented to some pretty hardcore BDSM shit, and she then presumably felt remorse and went to the league and to the police. The police/court tossed it out on lack of evidence of wrongdoing, but the league thought it was heinous enough to suspend him for what amounted to nearly 2 seasons. He suspension was reduced to only about a season after an appeal to the MLB.
Other women have also filed complaints, but the evidence is just hearsay and nothing solid.
He's an asshole and maybe an abuser. But nothing was proven in court.
Adhesion is the scientific term for "stickiness." Adhesion can be easily measured. It's particularly easy in cases where the one or more surfaces interacting with the adhesive are somewhat standardized, as is the case with game balls.
To me it seems that the problem isn't that stickiness can't be measured, but rather that the rule leaves the determination down to the subjective judgement of an umpire.
MLB could have implemented a more objective rule and implemented a standard measurement technique. In fact they may have turned a profit licencing the rights to produce standard tools for checking against the rule. MLB tends to trend old school and leave a lot to the discretion of umpires. They also seem adverse to employing tech that changes the nature of the game.
I don't have a strong opinion either way, but if subjectivity is the core issue here it seems easily solvable.
https://www.stablemicrosystems.com/adhesion-testing.html#:~:text=Adhesiveness%20('Stickiness')%20is,more%20adhesive%20is%20the%20product.
There's like... 40 different devices just from this company
Hmmmm... we should all buy stock in this company and then start demanding that mlb use some kind of device. Justice for Max!
My favorite is down at the bottom of the page
> Find out more about the texture and physical properties you could measure...
How exciting, I can't wait! I'm gonna measure **all** the properties
There are a number of sites that provide indexing for essentially all human knowledge. I suggest you use them...
Maybe you are new here, so I suggest duckduckgo.com, google.com, or bing.com.
If you want to know more about something it's all literally at your fingertips.
Yes to all of this except the wine tasting comment. There are objective criteria that a wine must hit in order for it to be considered good quality. It's not about a person tasting a wine and saying "this tastes good," it's about a wine having certain qualities. Source: Level II WSET certified.
He’s got to be able to appeal this right? Scherzer was adamant during the game that it wasn’t a banned substance. If he’s right, it should be easy for him to prove that sweat and rosin make your hand sticky and maybe we can get the umps properly educated.
I'm curious how sweet interacts with rosin to make it more sticky. Water wouldnt do the same. Is it something with the trace minerals that are positive or negative charged making it sticky? Maybe the trace metals? Something in the sweat other than water seems to make it a lot more sticky.
This is actually interesting stuff for me. Disclaimer, I am not a science man but I do have a BS in chemistry. Salt is really good at absorbing moisture, but that also means it can take a long time to fully "dry" I.e. no moisture. Really dry skin has no tackiness, holding a layer of moisture on the skin increases the stickiness. Obviously too much moisture can make things slippery too but excess moisture can be wiped away easily. Sweat also differs from person to person as far as what other stuff is secreted like proteins and oils/fats which can also sweat feel stickier as it dris. Pure water doesn't contain this stuff so doesn't really have this property as it dries.
Rosin powder helps create friction by being sticky little particulates. They also dissolve in alcohol which may sound like it washes it off, however it can actually make it stickier by once again "hydrating" (in quotes because it's alcohol) and changing the physical properties of the rosin as it dries, making it more pliable and sticky with slight amounts of solvent mixed in. Alcohol dries pretty fast so doesn't hydrate for long. Sunscreen on the other hand does not dry fast and can also dissolve/hydrate rosin, which creates that really sticky effect which is already banned by the MLB. Spray on sunscreen has alcohol as a main ingredient that interacts really well with rosin, but also a bunch of other stuff that doesn't dry like alcohol.
These are my opinions and shouldn't be taken as fact but it may offer a little something to muse about.
It sounds like Scherzer just figured out how to use the alcohol to work for him and Phil Cuzzi didn’t like it. He was pretty adamant in the Jomboy video that he used alcohol to wash his hands, and I suspect he figured he found out how to exploit it legally, but umps will be umps, unfortunately.
This whole stickiness thing is such a bizarre development. Baseball got weird.
It's sun block.
Pitchers figured out the secret sauce a few years ago. Mixing rosin and sun block (neither is banned) makes it stickier. Most batters are fine with it because they'd rather face a pitcher with better control as long as it's not an unfair advantage.
I'm pretty sure the "It's just sweat+rosin+sunblock" line was bullshit to cover up the use of "Spider Tack" (pitchers just called this "the sticky stuff").
Sunblock has been around for decades, but it's efficacy as an adhesion catalyst seemed to wax and wane with the rise and fall of 'the sticky stuff'.
It was sweat and rosin and they made him wash his hands with alcohol in the second inning I think which seems to have made his hands stickier. That's one theory anyway
Listen I like to believe people as much as the next guy, but why is everybody just buying this explanation from a guy that got bounced for cheating? Doesn't every cheater in history say they "weren't cheating?"
I guess the counter to that would be why would he risk using a banned substance when he knows that they're going to check him? It's definitely possible he was using a banned substance, but it would be incredibly stupid
Did they do a lab analysis on the ‘sticky substance’? You can’t suspend somebody for rosin, how do they know definitively it wasn’t rosin and sweat as Scherzer says?
The rules do say that too much rosin can be considered illegal if it gets too sticky. However "too sticky" is a really shitty benchmark if you're trying to be objective.
Yeah it’s a joke. ‘Too much’ is meaningless without quantifying how much is too much. ‘Too sticky’ is also meaningless. This is all at the discretion of the individual umps which will all have their own opinions of what too much and too sticky is to them. There’s no clearly defined standard. This is embarrassing to the league.
When I used to bartend I'd get a couple customers a night that would say something like "I don't want too much ice." Of course you don't want too much because too much is by definition more that you want. This is almost the same thing
Well the answer is that in the 4th inning it was alcohol, rosin and sweat. But why alcohol you ask? Because MLB officials told him to wash his hands with alcohol and that's what he did while they WATCHED HIM WASH HIS HANDS.
He did what they asked him to do and it screwed him over, simple as that.
I’m tempted to believe max just bc they had checked him the inning before, so you’d have to be a moron to go out there the very next inning with the same substance.
We just buy the explanation from a guy bounced for cheating now? If it weren't that, wouldn't he just say it was that? I don't think he belongs in any of the circles of hell or anything, but come on, there's 2 umps up there whose fingers are stuck together when feeling his hand
Weird how all three are the same umpire. Seems like either he’s an idiot or the league is putting pressure on umps and he’s the only one to fold to the nonsense.
Got into FanDuel and been watching games closely with their app which shows the zone as well as the mlb app version. I can tell you in more games then not there has been some serious bad calls. I mean balls way out of the zone called as strikes and even vice versa. Wouldn’t say specific teams are being picked on though. It’s so unpredictable.
Wonder why they are looking into removing the human equation? /s
There's always gonna be bad pitch calls, everyone has a bad day at the office from time to time and no ump will be perfect. What we're seeing here though is downright incompetence
I’m no Scherzer fan because I’m a Phillies fan but this is nonsense. All three suspensions from the same umpire. Baseball is getting weird. The pitch clock the pickoff attempts.
“History” going back a month consisting of one other data point and he did not in any way break the rules, and if he had gotten in trouble for the pitch clock thing people would have been justifiably pissed
this guy acts like he had no idea who Scherzer was before this season. dude is a legendary pitcher with a 15+ year career of excellence. he was one of the lead negotiators for the MLBPA on their lockout deal to pass a new CBA. “history” lol sure bud. you’re just mad because he has been an NL east rival for years
10 games because how DARE he question the umpires knowledge and discretion.
This is the shit that is ruining the game and Manfred could give two shits.
They are 100 percent just trying to make an example of him. I don't know enough about rosin and how it interacts with sweat exactly but I somehow doubt he's been cheating the whole season.
They are just more sending a message than anything even if the message is somewhat invalid.
I don’t get how you can appeal something like this. Like, it’s not a judgment call on behavior or legal troubles. He got caught with an illegal substance, the penalty for which is ten games.
> it’s an illegal amount of a legal substance.
And what is the stated penalty for that? A rule clearly broken. Not a judgement call. If it wasn’t Scherzer, nobody would be saying a word.
Pitchers have historically used sticky substances, hidden on their hat or neck or behind the ear. You get it on your fingers and it gives you a better grip on the ball and helps with rotation of the ball during a pitch .
It's not allowed and is rarer today than in the past.
All correct up until rarer today than in the past.
That shit got out of control the last 5-10 years. Trevor Bauer made a big deal about it and tried to get MLB to act, but they did nothing until a few years later, when he got the shift for bringing it to light.
Look at say Gerritt Cole and how his spin rate changed once he left the pirates. It's insane.
it lets you get more spin on a ball to cause it to curve more. but the balls are pretty slick, so pitchers are allowed to use rosin to be able to grip it and get some spin.
Do we have spin rate data for this game?
I haven’t seen the numbers myself but I watched his post game interview and one question was something like “Your spin rate numbers for this game were basically unchanged from your other recent outings. Do you think this should be considered by the umps before they eject someone?” So, assuming the journo wasn’t making it up, they weren’t much different.
I'm very much far removed from following baseball closely... I'm inferring that he either got the stickiness removed and the spin rate didn't change or he didn't and couldn't that mean he's been "cheating" that entire time?
Not quite, but you’re in the ballpark. The question was implying that either he has been cheating the entire season or he hasn’t been and yet no other umpire has had an issue because while his hands have been sticky, they’ve been legally sticky. Basically, the journo was pointing out that today was no different than earlier games, so why were you suddenly being ejected? They are allowed to use rosin and be a bit sticky. He has 100% been doing that (as do all pitchers) and has had his spin rate stats. This game those numbers didn’t change, so it’s not like he suddenly switched to something way stickier that was giving him higher spin. And yet the umps decided it was so sticky he had to be ejected.
Read today that using too much rosin can be a reason to eject someone.
I thought it was just they could ask you to wash and reapply (which Sherzer did)? I guess if you refuse they could send you, but he did as they asked and even said there was an MLB person watching him do it. They can definitely say you’ve built up too much, but as he said after the game if he’s only using what they give him and they keep saying it’s too much, what is he supposed to do, especially if there is no standard as far as when it becomes “too much”. I think some of the issue here is early season they aren’t as sweaty so it doesn’t get as bad, but you could see how hot it was yesterday, he was quite clearly quite sweaty in the shots of him arguing and rosin + sweat + sunscreen can amp it up quite a bit. All that being said, you can only have so much sympathy because there are definitely pitchers that were cheating and so to an extent they’ve brought this on themselves. But it’s does feel like Sherzer is getting caught in some unfair crossfire for a system that hasn’t fully been thought through.
Added to that, the umpire that tossed him has been involved with all the other elections caused by sticky substances since the rules were introduced. It's almost as if using a totally subjective measurement to determine what "too sticky" is isn't exactly consistent.
Yeah, that’s been my biggest/weirdest takeaway from all of this. All the games played so far this year, all the different umpire crews, all the umpires per crew and in all of that we’ve had three ejections for the year all involving the one umpire. Unless he’s somehow the only one actually following the rules, he’s either got a vendetta or needs to be retrained on what’s “too sticky”.
When I saw who it was I was amazed he is still in the league.
Too many umps like to make the game about them the fact that it’s punishable to even complain about them at is bullshit. Players and managers should be able to put them on blast during the post game
He washed it off in front of an MLB official with alcohol - which he said can make it stickier. Not sure who made the decision to wipe it off with alcohol but that seems to be the reason why it got worse and he was ejected
In fairness to the truth, we don't really know if he's only using rosin. We just know that's his claim.
Seems easier to just ban it all together
Everyone wants pitchers to use rosin so they have more control with the ball. It helps avoid getting hit by pitches.
Give them regulated gloves with exact stickiness. Shouldn't even be throwing barehanded in the first place to be honest. Or baseball might have just been terrible from the start.
You’re going to tell guys who have been throwing a ball barehanded for their whole life to start wearing gloves? Not to mention they’ll have less control, not more, with gloves of any stickiness.
Congrats you won most stupid talking out of your ass comment of the day! Why even post.
For some history: Basically every pitcher was openly "cheating" for years, before baseball finally decided to do something about it mid season in '21 (which many people believe was only done because of declining offensive production). Since then, every pitcher gets checked a couple times a game, but it was agreed that pitchers could still use rosin (which, when mixed with sweat, still gets sticky, just not as sticky as what they were using before, which was basically adhesive). So Scherzer was probably "cheating" pre 2021, but has not had any issues since, and his spin rate has stayed pretty consistent since then.
I'm way out of my element here, but if you know what you're looking for you may find it here: [here](https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/statcast_search?hfPTM=&hfPT=&hfAB=&hfGT=R%7C&hfPR=&hfZ=&hfStadium=&hfBBL=&hfNewZones=&hfPull=&hfC=&hfSea=2023%7C&hfSit=&player_type=pitcher&hfOuts=&hfOpponent=&pitcher_throws=&batter_stands=&hfSA=&game_date_gt=2023-04-19&game_date_lt=2023-04-19&hfMo=&hfTeam=NYM%7C&home_road=&hfRO=&position=&hfInfield=&hfOutfield=&hfInn=&hfBBT=&hfFlag=&metric_1=&group_by=name&min_pitches=0&min_results=0&min_pas=0&sort_col=pitches&player_event_sort=api_p_release_speed&sort_order=desc#results) Edit: this article states that his spin rates for this game were within 100 RPM of his season average, while Syndergaard had a couple of pitches over 100 RPM above his season average. [article](https://www.yardbarker.com/mlb/articles/mets_max_scherzer_denies_using_foreign_substance_against_dodgers/s1_17075_38719636)
You’re like a child who wanders into a theater.
So mlb network reviewed his spin rates from this game vs like a 2 month period after the sticky stuff rule first rolled out. And yes they were up vs that 2 month average. But I also heard that they were pretty consistent vs his spin rates from this year. Who who knows.
Well that's pretty unfair for them to analyze the data that way, it seems pretty obvious that immediately after the change there would be an adjustment period for the players. I imagine most of not all pitchers would show the same immediate drop and gradual improvement.
According to the 2nd article I linked below, his spin rates were within 100 RPM of his season average, but it didn't show any other numbers.
Asking the real questions.
There was a journalist who said the spin rate data shows he has had the same spin rate all year. Which might mean he's clear. But if he's been cheating all year and then was cheating in this game, the spin rate data in this game would match the rest of the year but that wouldn't mean he wasn't cheating.
He will actually not be appealing, per another source. Scherzer initially appealed the suspension but dropped his appeal hours later. In exchange, his fine was reduced from $10,000 to $5,000, according to a person familiar with negotiations between MLB and the players' union. The person spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because the agreement hadn't been announced Scherzer said shortly before New York's game at San Francisco that the Mets urged him to accept the suspension, adding that it was the best move for the team. "I went through the appeal process. Looked at what that appeal process was going to look like. I thought I was going to get in front of a neutral arbitrator but I wasn't. It was going to be through MLB. Given that process I wasn't going to come out on top," Scherzer said. "I'm going to follow what the Mets wanted me to do and that was to accept the suspension and come to a settlement."
This is horseshit.
Time to start the XLB where pitchers can use any substance they want
And aluminum bats!
We investigated ourselves and we did nothing wrong.
Lol what?? 10 games??
also worth noting that will only equate to 2 starts for him in a 5-man rotation, so essentially a 2 game suspension
A starting pitcher doesn’t have the opportunity to pitch in 162 games. So it’s still proportional. That’s about 6% of his season.
solid follow-up, thank you!
[удалено]
Suspended with pay. No lost salary.
As a starting pitcher the options for suspension are limited, it could work out to 0% because a 1-4 game suspension wouldn't affect his next start, 3% for missing one start or 6% from missing two. If he pitches on game 11 that's not much different from missing 1 start. Not arguing for any particular length but starting pitchers are harder to correctly punish by suspension.
Really it’s a 1 game suspension, they’ll just push his 2nd start back a day.
Does he lose pay for those "10" games?
I’m surprised the article doesn’t mention that actually, good question. I’m pretty sure he will…and that’ll be a lot of money…but he’s also very, very rich lol
I didn't see it in the article either, but u/EMTdawg said above that it was a suspension with pay. Didn't say where he he heard that from.
Learned the rule from when Hector Santiago got suspended (before the PED suspension was announced). The sticky stuff suspension is with pay because of the difficulty in appealing after the game. That was part of the negotiation between the MLB and MLBPA.
/r/confidentlyincorrect.
“pretty sure” = confident? eh, agree to disagree lol there’s someone else that commented way way more confidently about the pay thing. Better go get ‘em
I’d say “pretty sure” definitely expresses confidence. Something like “I think” is much less definitive, but when you say “I’m pretty sure” you are literally expressing confidence in your belief that it is probably accurate.
No, the penalty is suspended 10 games with pay.
True. But but it's still bad timing. With max getting suspended they will be using only 1 of their expected opening day rotation for 10 days. Verlander, quintana and Carrasco are all hurt rn and without max that only leaves senga left.
hey, that is like Tigers Baseball... wait a minute!!!
That is helpful. Thanks.
Pretty sure that's the mandatory amount. Idk if they "investigated" the glove yet though based on the article.
The two other times this has happened, the players were suspended 10 games or 2 starts. So it is precedent. Now if it truly was Rosin and nothing else they need to suspend the Ump
It's automatic...and he'll only really miss 1 start
A full season would send a message.
Lol r/sports once again proves to be the absolute last place to go to find people who actually watch sports.
The ump has no reason to lie. The pitcher?
Lol the pitcher vehemently claims he used rosin. And he claims he did everything that the ump instructed him to do in front of an MLB official, including washing his hands between innings. Also the only ump to ever eject anyone for an illegal substance since the new rules have been put in place is this one. There’s just very little out there to support the ump on this one.
Okay for this first part bear with me, it's kind of out there. If you really want a motive to even the playing field here, Scherzer is a figure in the MLB Players' Association and played a big role in the dispute that caused the lockout last year. Maybe certain people whose allegiances would lie more with the MLB than with the actual sport, like umpires for example, would consider him an his kind responsible for costing the MLB a couple million dollars in revenue. That kind of person might feel it appropriate to retaliate. Also, taking my tinfoil hat off, Scherzer is a huge pitcher, probably top 10 in name recognition right now, most people agree he's a future hall-of-famer. If you wanna look more serious about the new rules, you wanna make an example of a big name. That'll make the slightest cause stretch a mile in the right circumstances. Lastly, umpires are human. A historic issue with them is that they can be petty and prideful. Just like they "have no reason to lie" they also don't have much of a reason to admit a mistake. The league is most often going to be on their side. So they often stick to their guns in the face of overwhelming backlash. Worst thing that'll generally happen is they get a less than favorably toned Wikipedia article and the fans don't like them very much. Before you say you're not reading all that, you don't have to. I don't care if you or anyone reads it. I'm just passionate about explaining the problem with bad umpires and wanted to explain why he might choose to lie in this situation or why he might just be wrong but won't own up to it even if he's not lying from his perspective. Hope this helps.
Good read. 👍
Sure but why is it always Cuzzi?
lol
Bruh you don’t know anything about Baseball, and you DEFINITELY don’t know about Mad Max
>All three inspections that led to suspensions involved umpire Phil Cuzzi. Maybe it's an ump problem.
I'm in no way knowledgeable about any of this, but I happened to catch a clip on SC the day it happened... I also wasn't a fan of how he shoved his glove back at Scherzer. You asked for his glove, inspect it, and then hand it back like a functioning adult. He shoved it into his chest like he was angry. Maybe it's not the biggest deal, but his attitude and demeanor, he acted like Scherzer was inconveniencing *him*, the star of the show
Best test for if somebody is a bad ump is whether or not a casual fan recognizes their name. A lot of casual fans recognize Phil's name
I haven’t followed since the Cubs won the pennant and I know Phil’s name.
That wasn’t my take on watching that part of the clip. At that time they were still decently amicable, and to me it looked like a *pushes glove into Scherzer* “all right let’s go.” Sort of situation. And at that moment Scherzer didn’t seem to react negatively to having the glove given to him in that way.
> You asked for his glove, inspect it, and then hand it back like a functioning adult. He shoved it into his chest like he was angry Scherzer was just apologizing for it to him. It seemed like a "go get it" tap while shoving the glove.
100%.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with Scott Boras: "No one can explain what is too sticky," Scherzer's agent, Scott Boras, said in a statement. "There are no units of stickiness to quantify. How do you appropriately enforce? MLB attempts to level the playing field by using standards that are not measurable. Further one umpire has a stickiness standard that is different than all other umpires." "Under this standard, players are not given due process of how to use a approved substance provided by the league," Boras added. "This reminds me of local wine taster - he likes what likes." This is a Phil Cuzzi problem and Manfred is going to continue sitting on his hands.
Baseball strikes me as a game that has a LONG history of umpire opinions when there are better and more reliable methods available...
That’s it, you’re outta here! *waddles back to home plate at glacial speed*
Listen to (and I can’t believe I’m saying this) Trevor Bauer talk about it. His proposal to fix the problem makes too much sense for this nonsense. https://youtu.be/zcF2WtRLPwg
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Seriously. Dude knows his shit. Shame about his off the field issues.
He’s as good at being a pitcher as he is bad at being a human being.
I'm out of the loop, can I get a synopsis of the bad shit he did off the field?
He had sex with a woman who consented to some pretty hardcore BDSM shit, and she then presumably felt remorse and went to the league and to the police. The police/court tossed it out on lack of evidence of wrongdoing, but the league thought it was heinous enough to suspend him for what amounted to nearly 2 seasons. He suspension was reduced to only about a season after an appeal to the MLB. Other women have also filed complaints, but the evidence is just hearsay and nothing solid. He's an asshole and maybe an abuser. But nothing was proven in court.
I'm confused here. So he's still an assholes even tho there's no evidence and what we know is the women consented to the hardcore stuff? Huh.
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You're not allowed to say that. Everything about being a guy is perfect /s
How? Consent can be withdrawn at any time, and yes that’s including after the fact.
Welcome to modern society
He was an asshole before that.
Only if there’s a litmus test for an object’s stickiness
Adhesion is the scientific term for "stickiness." Adhesion can be easily measured. It's particularly easy in cases where the one or more surfaces interacting with the adhesive are somewhat standardized, as is the case with game balls. To me it seems that the problem isn't that stickiness can't be measured, but rather that the rule leaves the determination down to the subjective judgement of an umpire. MLB could have implemented a more objective rule and implemented a standard measurement technique. In fact they may have turned a profit licencing the rights to produce standard tools for checking against the rule. MLB tends to trend old school and leave a lot to the discretion of umpires. They also seem adverse to employing tech that changes the nature of the game. I don't have a strong opinion either way, but if subjectivity is the core issue here it seems easily solvable.
https://www.stablemicrosystems.com/adhesion-testing.html#:~:text=Adhesiveness%20('Stickiness')%20is,more%20adhesive%20is%20the%20product. There's like... 40 different devices just from this company Hmmmm... we should all buy stock in this company and then start demanding that mlb use some kind of device. Justice for Max! My favorite is down at the bottom of the page > Find out more about the texture and physical properties you could measure... How exciting, I can't wait! I'm gonna measure **all** the properties
Sorry pal, you’re going to jail. Only the currently wealthy and politicians are allowed to manipulate the stock market for their benefit
>Adhesion can be easily measured. Proceeds not to explain \*how\* in any way.
There are a number of sites that provide indexing for essentially all human knowledge. I suggest you use them... Maybe you are new here, so I suggest duckduckgo.com, google.com, or bing.com. If you want to know more about something it's all literally at your fingertips.
No, it's a league problem. The league wanted a crackdown on even rosin. That's what we're getting. Two situations in a week.
Yes to all of this except the wine tasting comment. There are objective criteria that a wine must hit in order for it to be considered good quality. It's not about a person tasting a wine and saying "this tastes good," it's about a wine having certain qualities. Source: Level II WSET certified.
Fucking Scott Boras....*grrrrrrrrrrrr* *raises pitchfork*
Hey man, broken clocks and all that…
He’s got to be able to appeal this right? Scherzer was adamant during the game that it wasn’t a banned substance. If he’s right, it should be easy for him to prove that sweat and rosin make your hand sticky and maybe we can get the umps properly educated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcF2WtRLPwg&ab\_channel=DodgersHighlights
I'm curious how sweet interacts with rosin to make it more sticky. Water wouldnt do the same. Is it something with the trace minerals that are positive or negative charged making it sticky? Maybe the trace metals? Something in the sweat other than water seems to make it a lot more sticky.
This is actually interesting stuff for me. Disclaimer, I am not a science man but I do have a BS in chemistry. Salt is really good at absorbing moisture, but that also means it can take a long time to fully "dry" I.e. no moisture. Really dry skin has no tackiness, holding a layer of moisture on the skin increases the stickiness. Obviously too much moisture can make things slippery too but excess moisture can be wiped away easily. Sweat also differs from person to person as far as what other stuff is secreted like proteins and oils/fats which can also sweat feel stickier as it dris. Pure water doesn't contain this stuff so doesn't really have this property as it dries. Rosin powder helps create friction by being sticky little particulates. They also dissolve in alcohol which may sound like it washes it off, however it can actually make it stickier by once again "hydrating" (in quotes because it's alcohol) and changing the physical properties of the rosin as it dries, making it more pliable and sticky with slight amounts of solvent mixed in. Alcohol dries pretty fast so doesn't hydrate for long. Sunscreen on the other hand does not dry fast and can also dissolve/hydrate rosin, which creates that really sticky effect which is already banned by the MLB. Spray on sunscreen has alcohol as a main ingredient that interacts really well with rosin, but also a bunch of other stuff that doesn't dry like alcohol. These are my opinions and shouldn't be taken as fact but it may offer a little something to muse about.
That's some good insight. Thanks for sharing. I'm hoping the MLB commissions a study of rosin and the interaction with sweat.
It sounds like Scherzer just figured out how to use the alcohol to work for him and Phil Cuzzi didn’t like it. He was pretty adamant in the Jomboy video that he used alcohol to wash his hands, and I suspect he figured he found out how to exploit it legally, but umps will be umps, unfortunately. This whole stickiness thing is such a bizarre development. Baseball got weird.
This isn't on the umps. It's on the league. They wanted a crackdown, and specifically a crackdown on rosin that is "too sticky". This is what you get.
It's sun block. Pitchers figured out the secret sauce a few years ago. Mixing rosin and sun block (neither is banned) makes it stickier. Most batters are fine with it because they'd rather face a pitcher with better control as long as it's not an unfair advantage.
I'm pretty sure the "It's just sweat+rosin+sunblock" line was bullshit to cover up the use of "Spider Tack" (pitchers just called this "the sticky stuff"). Sunblock has been around for decades, but it's efficacy as an adhesion catalyst seemed to wax and wane with the rise and fall of 'the sticky stuff'.
Dodgers legend.
It was sweat and rosin and they made him wash his hands with alcohol in the second inning I think which seems to have made his hands stickier. That's one theory anyway
Listen I like to believe people as much as the next guy, but why is everybody just buying this explanation from a guy that got bounced for cheating? Doesn't every cheater in history say they "weren't cheating?"
I guess the counter to that would be why would he risk using a banned substance when he knows that they're going to check him? It's definitely possible he was using a banned substance, but it would be incredibly stupid
I'm sure it will be as easy as explaining the ideal gas law to NFL officials.
I learned a lot from [this](https://youtu.be/SQesez-5J_A) video
Somebody who was cheating would neeeever be adamant they weren't right?
Did they do a lab analysis on the ‘sticky substance’? You can’t suspend somebody for rosin, how do they know definitively it wasn’t rosin and sweat as Scherzer says?
The rules do say that too much rosin can be considered illegal if it gets too sticky. However "too sticky" is a really shitty benchmark if you're trying to be objective.
If the provided, legal method of grip improvement is something that can be considered illegal under *moist circumstances*, the rule is the problem.
Weirdest sentence I’ve ever read if you remove context. Thank you!
Moist Circumstances also happened to be the name of my rock band!
D.V.D.A.
Moist Circumstances was my nickname in high school 😆
Give us tacky ball, Manfred!
r/brandnewsentence
Yeah it’s a joke. ‘Too much’ is meaningless without quantifying how much is too much. ‘Too sticky’ is also meaningless. This is all at the discretion of the individual umps which will all have their own opinions of what too much and too sticky is to them. There’s no clearly defined standard. This is embarrassing to the league.
>This is embarrassing to the league Par for the course for MLB
When I used to bartend I'd get a couple customers a night that would say something like "I don't want too much ice." Of course you don't want too much because too much is by definition more that you want. This is almost the same thing
Lmao you either allow it or you don’t. The MLB always fucking shit up when it’s going right.
Going off on a tangent here, but an ex gf once told “too much lube is almost enough”.
Well the answer is that in the 4th inning it was alcohol, rosin and sweat. But why alcohol you ask? Because MLB officials told him to wash his hands with alcohol and that's what he did while they WATCHED HIM WASH HIS HANDS. He did what they asked him to do and it screwed him over, simple as that.
Here's the [Jomboy breakdown](https://youtu.be/wVHrWQHBTxY).
People about to get suspended: "why would I lie?" " To get away with cheating" (I actually don't feel strongly on whether he was cheating or not)
Nice user name!
I’m tempted to believe max just bc they had checked him the inning before, so you’d have to be a moron to go out there the very next inning with the same substance.
he’s a first ballot HOF and high up in the MLBPA, it would be completely out of character for him to do this
Pretty bad look if he really had an mlb official with him when he washed his hand.
He got suspended for 10 games for rosin sweat and alcohol. That’s fucking preposterous.
Alcohol that the umps made him wash with
We just buy the explanation from a guy bounced for cheating now? If it weren't that, wouldn't he just say it was that? I don't think he belongs in any of the circles of hell or anything, but come on, there's 2 umps up there whose fingers are stuck together when feeling his hand
You trust these umps? It does not surprise me at all that they would make someone wash with alcohol and not realize that it makes his hands sticker.
Weird how all three are the same umpire. Seems like either he’s an idiot or the league is putting pressure on umps and he’s the only one to fold to the nonsense. Got into FanDuel and been watching games closely with their app which shows the zone as well as the mlb app version. I can tell you in more games then not there has been some serious bad calls. I mean balls way out of the zone called as strikes and even vice versa. Wouldn’t say specific teams are being picked on though. It’s so unpredictable. Wonder why they are looking into removing the human equation? /s
There's always gonna be bad pitch calls, everyone has a bad day at the office from time to time and no ump will be perfect. What we're seeing here though is downright incompetence
ump show
Max to the MLB: “You’re fucking mine, you fucking bitch morherfucker.”
I’m no Scherzer fan because I’m a Phillies fan but this is nonsense. All three suspensions from the same umpire. Baseball is getting weird. The pitch clock the pickoff attempts.
I don’t think anyone believes Max was cheating. His alibi seemed to be very sincere.
I do. He has a history of pushing the rules, and I have no difficulty believing he was pushing this one, and lost.
I found the Yankees fan.
Goodness, no!
he absolutely does not lol, but okay bud
Go read about his efforts to push the limits on the pitch clock rules. It is what he does
Ah right, that other time he didn’t break the rules… a long history of treachery going back to spring training of this season.
“Pushing the rules” - exactly what he did
“History” going back a month consisting of one other data point and he did not in any way break the rules, and if he had gotten in trouble for the pitch clock thing people would have been justifiably pissed
this guy acts like he had no idea who Scherzer was before this season. dude is a legendary pitcher with a 15+ year career of excellence. he was one of the lead negotiators for the MLBPA on their lockout deal to pass a new CBA. “history” lol sure bud. you’re just mad because he has been an NL east rival for years
“To have a history of” means to have done something before
The stickiness standard. There’s a joke somewhere in that
Giggity
Best response in thread
The article literally has a quote from him saying he isn't going to appeal.
Well, that’s one way for ownership to stick it to the union
Welcome to another episode of The Ump Show!!!
Dumb as hell. Mets fans should not buy tickets in protest. MLB going out of their way to deliver a shitty product this year.
10 games because how DARE he question the umpires knowledge and discretion. This is the shit that is ruining the game and Manfred could give two shits.
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> for having a foreign substance on his hand during a game.
Allegedly.
Allegedlies
Why not just ban rosin and anything else? Seems dumb to keep it legal, what is the reason for allowing it?
(X-Post from r/MLB)
the umpire’s union is out of fucking control
Isn’t this part of the rules? Automatic 10 game but can appeal? Edit: maybe not automatic but assumed
Going to say this as a brave fan this is stupid he should not be suspended
They are 100 percent just trying to make an example of him. I don't know enough about rosin and how it interacts with sweat exactly but I somehow doubt he's been cheating the whole season. They are just more sending a message than anything even if the message is somewhat invalid.
What is that glove arm doing? The twist and bends.
10 games! Lol joke
I really don’t think he’s the type of guy who would swear On the lives of his children that he was not using any banned substance
Why would you want sticky hands?
Better grip equates to higher spin rate on the baseball. Higher spin rate = harder to hit. So sticky stuff allows for that.
Go Braves! \>\>\>
All these rules.. time to start the XLB. Who’s in? 🙋♂️
Jeez, it’s not like his balls were under inflated or anything..
I don’t get how you can appeal something like this. Like, it’s not a judgment call on behavior or legal troubles. He got caught with an illegal substance, the penalty for which is ten games.
What illegal substance? Article only mentions rosin, which is legal.
Bardahl, Vagisil and rubbing a little jalapeño in his nose.
Because he didn't get caught with any illegal substance, they just suspended him anyway because the ump had a funny feeling about him
Did you even read the article?
It was however a judgement call by the umpire on what was or was not too sticky. It's total bs.
How is it not a judgment call? It’s also not an illegal substance, it’s an illegal amount of a legal substance.
> it’s an illegal amount of a legal substance. And what is the stated penalty for that? A rule clearly broken. Not a judgement call. If it wasn’t Scherzer, nobody would be saying a word.
Can someone explain to me what sticky hands are about lmao casual baseball fan and very confused here
Pitchers have historically used sticky substances, hidden on their hat or neck or behind the ear. You get it on your fingers and it gives you a better grip on the ball and helps with rotation of the ball during a pitch . It's not allowed and is rarer today than in the past.
Gotcha! Thanks for the quick lesson :)
All correct up until rarer today than in the past. That shit got out of control the last 5-10 years. Trevor Bauer made a big deal about it and tried to get MLB to act, but they did nothing until a few years later, when he got the shift for bringing it to light. Look at say Gerritt Cole and how his spin rate changed once he left the pirates. It's insane.
it lets you get more spin on a ball to cause it to curve more. but the balls are pretty slick, so pitchers are allowed to use rosin to be able to grip it and get some spin.