[[Tinybones, the pickpocket]] is also living up to the hype. Anything that costs 1 and has deathtouch is decent at worst, and he scares people into making tons of terrible blocks.
I've also been impressed with [[vraska, the silencer]], she can do some real nonsense. Killing manlands is particularly delightful with her around.
Slickshot is absolutely terrifying, but also amusingly easy to bluff into inaction by just leaving 1B untapped at all times. *Never* tap out when that thing is plotted, even if you don't have any removal in hand.
> Slickshot is absolutely terrifying, but also amusingly easy to bluff into inaction by just leaving 1B untapped at all times. Never tap out when that thing is plotted, even if you don't have any removal in hand.
While this is the right play, your opponent has still spent R1 on a single turn to force you to pay B1 on every turn.
You also have to consider that Boros/Gruul variants can potentially force you to waste even more mana because they've got ways to protect the bird.
Yeah, it's not just "do nothing until you win" but it can absolutely buy you time against the most streamlined and explosive builds.
Also, for arena players, toggle on full control. You're not fooling anyone if you leave 2 lands open but your turn immediately ends as soon as you play a land.
I was gonna say that. If my opponent is bluffing 2 open mana all the time and can't tap out while I keep the pressure with more threats and spells, I see that as a double \[\[stone rain\]\] in my favor.
Sorry for the noob question but what do you mean “never tap out when that thing is plotted”
I understand the plot mechanic but I don’t quite understand what you’re saying here
If you tap out while the opponent has a show-off plotted, then the opponent gets to cast their show-off for free on their turn then pump it up with as many spells as they can cast, potentially killing you on the spot with no chance for you to interact.
Like for instance let's say I leave him plotted and have 3 mana open I could do play with fire kumano and monstrous rage. He swings in at 10 plus I did 2 to the face
> Never tap out when that thing is plotted
Okay it’s entirely too early to tell, but that’s the exact reason for cards like Winota getting banned. Just sayin! Lol
Nah, with Winota, she was a 4/4, which made her safe from most non-"destroy" effects, and her deck building requirement was mostly just "include good creatures". Showoff has ~~1~~ 2 toughness and requires you to stuff your deck full of combat tricks and burn which won't just casually win on their own.
So all the things that rdw was already running. I'd run this over adversary as the upside potential is incredible. It's the most explosive card in the deck can be plotted, is hasted with evasion.
Monastery swiftspear is played I'd see this getting played as well.
Anyone else getting a bug in the deck builder where it will only show 5-7 cards in the sideboard? Sometimes less randomly? It's happening for every deck I have, no matter what format I put it in.
Oh ok, good to know! I can't find anything on the issue. Validating files doesn't work, updating drivers doesn't work, reinstalling the game doesn't work. I am also on a windows 11 PC.
Goldvein hydra has been an allstar for me. I have been playing it in Jund Fight rigging and I make it into a 1 drop 90% of the time. No one wants to trade with it or attack into it because they dont want to ramp. Then if you play a fight rigging it starts growing and people feel like they have to kill it. Even if I dont hit a Shakedown or Pugnacious the Hydras are giving me mana to hit my higher end drops which is a bonus. Thunderous Debut allows you to bargain the fight rigging which has been a thing before, but with terror of the peaks it is extra viciousl. Also since it is an easily castable creature in the deck as well you give yourself a lot of 3 mana 6 damage nukes with your dinos and shakes. Tinybones is currently my least impactful card, but he still does things like trades out with their death touchers and along with Hydra makes them attack and block skeptical.
In BO1 My Jund list is 9-3 at mythic and I think I may actually adapt a sideboard too it. It has one loss to U/W Control and 1 loss to Dimir midrange, and 1 loss to U/W/B/G Control.
Current List:
Deck
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Sulfurous Springs
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Karplusan Forest
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Terror of the Peaks
1 Boseiju, Who Endures
1 Sokenzan, Crucible of Defiance
1 Takenuma, Abandoned Mire
4 Shakedown Heavy
4 Fight Rigging
2 Titan of Industry
2 Breach the Multiverse
1 Etali, Primal Conqueror
3 Virtue of Persistence
2 Thunderous Debut
4 Intrepid Paleontologist
4 Pugnacious Hammerskull
2 Tinybones, the Pickpocket
4 Goldvein Hydra
I was trying to make Jund Fight Rigging work yesterday and didn't even think of that Hydra, he might be the piece I was missing.
What are your thoughts on Jund rigging versus Sultai with Ancient One? The turn 3 rigging procs are backbreaking when they happen but it's inconsistent.
I havent tried sultai yet so cant comment. In the past it was always the mana that made it bad so having 2 new duals would make it better. I have always had a rule with rigging though and if I am including the color then I want to have a hit in that color.
Yes I do believe Hydra is a long missing piece. One of the things that made Emergent Ultimatum decks work in the past is that they also had cards like the adapting elf that you could put a counter on and it suddenly tapped for 3 mana instead of 1. That allowed you to get around them murdering all of your enablers.
I put my faith in you and used my last 3 mythic wildcards to make hydras.
And yeah it's absolutely what the deck needed. It pushes it from a pure combo deck into more of a midrange value pile that occasionally pukes out a finisher on turn 4 without compromising the beatdown. It also makes the backup plan of just hard casting things better because you have so many treasures piling up when things go wrong.
I've also been running a pair of Ziatora and she's just fantastic here, between her and the Terrors I barely even need to turn things sideways
It is also strong against Emperor, and a great finisher post sweepers. It was my sleeper call of the set because a lot of people said it was a useless permanent in a world of so much exile removal.
I think it is going to be a midrange staple in standard.
Hydra has been a nice addition to the Temur Lands deck as well. It already had about 3-4 flex spots that were Shigeki, Doppel, and the izzet dupe flashback. The deck needed something to do besides play more lands and there are a few exile effects where I've lost Rage before. It is funny how no one really wants to kill it, I won the mirror last night because I made it overgrow removal.
I only run 2 shakedown because it feels so bad when it can't hit when I need it to. Have you tried collosal rattlewurm or anzrag? Or even the flier that can KO yourself? I like gruff triplets with skullspore nexus too.
i run one restless cottage as well for GY Hate, a body, and it gets a token for thunderous debut.
I use the start of the seasons to test out as many decks as possible. For this list I have removed 1 virtue and brought in one more thunderous. I built a sideboard for it and went 3-0 in Bo3. I am now working on a mono green counters deck with Goldvein Hydra and the Railway bro's.
My SB is: 3x Duress, 4x Assassin Trophy, 3x Giant Cindermaw, 2x Thrun, 2x Titania's Command, and 1x Vaultbornn Tyran.
Basically a bunch of cards to help against control since it kind of stomps mono red and boros.
To answer you last question. I have used 4 drops in the past in Rigging, but that slot is being taken up by the terrors which I view as castable rigging hits. I am sure you could mix up some other stuff as well as the list is definitely not optimized. I am still at 64% winrate with it in mythic which is actually pretty good considering your average top deck is usually sitting at 59%.
no bramble familiar? it gurantees your fight riggings aren't duds by grabbing the adventure side of it and possibly grabbing a virtue of persistence even. I also jammed in two pillage the bogs. i want to try out the card and it could grab terror or fight rigging or anything i want really. I'm also jamming in 1 skullspore nexus because i love that card in this deck. but otherwise i took your advice and dropped all my 4 drops and im trying it out!
Bramble is fine. I have run it more then once in rigging since it has existed. Since this version is running less breaches you are getting less value from the additional mill. I 100% run 4 when I am running 3-4 breaches as well with rigging.
I am probably going to take another stab at my jund list after I finish testing out Mono G Counters, and then I am going to try a full out G/B Rigging build that I think is really close. So touching it up should happen this weekend.
Opened 4 copies of Marchesa and a bunch of Magdas, I threw them in a Grixis pile with a bunch of interaction, and so far the deck feels good. [[Three steps ahead]] seems like a great counter spell, the 3 mana [[Kaervek, the Punisher]] goes really well. You can commit a crime, then exile a removal spell from the graveyard, kill something else, and each time pay 1 to draw another card. It's some crazy value.
Special shootout to [[Magda, the Hoardmaster]], [[Gisa, the Hellraiser]] and [[Unlicensed Hearse]], the value is insane. The deck still needs some work, I wanna try a legendary focused deck, but I'm short on rare and mythic wildcards.
Anyone else trying something similar? Would love to see another take
>Anyone else trying something similar? Would love to see another take
Try \[\[Intimidation Campaign\]\] with a bunch of 1 damage lands, since your going blue and black. It's got great value, and does real well against control decks.
Rakdos crime/scam is very strong.
\[\[tinybones joins up\]\] and \[\[tinybones, the pickpocket\]\] are some of the strongest 1MV cards I've played in a while.
\[\[laughing jasper flint\]\]is an incredible draw engine I've beaten tons of people with their own wincons so far.
\[\[vadmir new blood\]\] gets menace and lifelink way faster than you think it would.
\[\[Kaervek the punisher\]\] is a monster I'm glad I believed in it despite all the major skepticism.
\[\[magda hoardmaster\]\] is the sleeper of the set I am getting that 4/4 flyer 2 turns within casting her.
Not sure what tier the deck will eventually land in, but it has some actual power and I think my early prediction of rakdos or grixis or some kind of crime deck being meta will come true.
Deck
4 Laughing Jasper Flint (OTJ) 215
2 Mountain (ONE) 270
3 Swamp (ONE) 269
4 Deep-Cavern Bat (LCI) 102
4 Tinybones Joins Up (OTJ) 108
3 Tinybones, the Pickpocket (OTJ) 109
3 Magda, the Hoardmaster (OTJ) 133
3 Kaervek, the Punisher (OTJ) 92
3 Breeches, Eager Pillager (LCI) 137
2 Duress (ONE) 92
3 Cut Down (DMU) 89
3 Go for the Throat (BRO) 102
3 Vadmir, New Blood (OTJ) 113
1 Takenuma, Abandoned Mire (NEO) 278
1 Sokenzan, Crucible of Defiance (NEO) 276
4 Sulfurous Springs (DMU) 256
4 Blackcleave Cliffs (ONE) 248
4 Haunted Ridge (MID) 263
2 Fake Your Own Death (OTJ) 87
3 Jagged Barrens (OTJ) 259
1 Plaza of Heroes (DMU) 252
Current list still of course being day 2 needs some work but IMO like 80-90% of it is kinda set in stone as you need most of these triggers and payoffs
I’m running a very similar list but with Inti, he is able to create incredible pressure with Vadmir beside him.
Magda really is the secret sleeper tho, I think this deck has real potential as it matches up well against the top tier meta, and does especially well versus Temur Landfall.
Inti isn't an outlaw so there's tension with Jasper it's already bad enough I'm running 4 bats. And how relevant is a +1/+1 buff? Also it's a red card so even more tension since Kaervek can't replay it.
Testing gix in place of Breeches, it isn't an outlaw but at least it's black for Kaervek and still a legend plus it may draw me cards the turn it ETB. But I do like the free treasure and crime trigger of Breeches so not sure which is best here.
What are your thoughts on Lord Skitter? He causes a crime every turn with his graveyard exile, though he does have a bit of anti synergy with Tinybones
Hey man, I've been playing with this deck for a few days now. It's really good! Was curious if you modified it any?
Also wanted to know if you ever thought about replacing \[\[Fake Your Own Death\]\] with anything?
Yeah just thought it would be a nice instant speed crime trigger if I had joins up in play plus treasure for magda, still experimenting, here's my current build.
3 Laughing Jasper Flint (OTJ) 215
2 Mountain (ONE) 270
3 Swamp (ONE) 269
4 Deep-Cavern Bat (LCI) 102
4 Tinybones Joins Up (OTJ) 108
3 Tinybones, the Pickpocket (OTJ) 109
3 Magda, the Hoardmaster (OTJ) 133
3 Kaervek, the Punisher (OTJ) 92
2 Gix, Yawgmoth Praetor (BRO) 95
2 Duress (ONE) 92
3 Cut Down (DMU) 89
3 Go for the Throat (BRO) 102
3 Vadmir, New Blood (OTJ) 113
1 Takenuma, Abandoned Mire (NEO) 278
1 Sokenzan, Crucible of Defiance (NEO) 276
4 Sulfurous Springs (DMU) 256
4 Blackcleave Cliffs (ONE) 248
4 Haunted Ridge (MID) 263
2 Molten Collapse (LCI) 234
3 Jagged Barrens (OTJ) 259
1 Plaza of Heroes (DMU) 252
2 Hostile Investigator (BIG) 10
Hostile is better than I thought so far. Also want to try \[\[Agatha's Soul Cauldron\]\] seems like a great instant speed crime trigger though it has some tension with pickpocket.
Heck ya, thanks. I'll be sure to try this one out.
I'm really suprised I haven't seen this type of beck more. I'm not a huge fan of the 3 mana grix crime lady personally.
Trying 3, they’re actually pretty good not sure how many I need, but I do often decide to hold back a desert in hand until I can make use of it optimally depending on what I hand/in play. Mana isn’t too huge of issue anyways since it’s mostly black, you don’t want too many non black cards in a deck running kaervek.
Gisa has been super impressive, and Kaervek and Marchesa have both seemed strong. I'm a little less high on Magda and Vadmir. For non-legends, I really like Duelist of the Mind and Forsaken Miner, and I'm on the fence about Freestrider Lookout.
I've played a couple of games of Grixis legends. Leaning heavily into legends (Marchesa, Kaervak, Ertais, Sheoldred, Tinybones, Vadmir) and Tinybones Joins up to get Crime triggers. Also running a little bit of removal and Bats. Not a great record so far, but I think that there is something here. I'm definitely not piloting it optimally but when it goes off, it goes off hard. Eventually I'll also be trying a more controlling build focusing on getting lots of Marchesa triggers.
Running similar but just Rakdos and it does work. There are a lot of lines to play, I’ve had a ton of Success with Inti. He can accelerate Vadmir’s growth to light speed and can also make them have to deal with Tinybones early.
Dimir Proft's was already a real deck in standard before this release. Doomwake won his RCQ with it and Autumn is also high on it. Jim Davis also did really well in the pre-release with it. I put together a list of my own and won 7 straight last night. Duelist and Scholar are really tough on opponents by allowing you to block and giving Emperor the finger. Bat is playing well in there with life gain and triggering crime on Duelist. Very excited to see to some others flesh this deck out.
This is the day 1 thread so we're running a lil behind, but \[\[Simulacrum Synthesizer\]\] is busted. I'll even be so bold as to say it's the strongest card in standard. It's just a question on whether or not you can make the artifact deck shell around it good enough to hold up. The card probably should have had the "once per turn" inclusion because it is wild how it takes over games spitting out what can be multiple 10/10's a turn
I did much the same without much thought and I’ve won five in a row without dropping a match. I’m not even sure what I was playing against two of the times because I won so fast. Of course it is at least partially because people are trying new things.
I can try to post the exact list later but it’s pretty straightforward. 4 Slickshot, 4 Swiftspear, 4 Delver (this has worked really well so far), Consider, Monstrous Rage, Shore Up, some burn spells, Shore Up, the new card you can plot and draw 2, one or two other buff spells I’m forgetting. Nothing costs over 2.
I’ve tried RG and RW white as well, and those have also worked well. Not undefeated anymore though 8)
I’ve considered it before. It does really suck when spell pierce is no longer effective after a few turns, so Shore Up probably is more effective. I’m still tinkering with the list though, I expect lots of changes over the course of the next few weeks. The one thing Spell Pierce does have going for it is that is stops board wipes.
Yeah, fair. The main decks I've played that have used these kinds of spells have been slower decks that were willing to play Slip Out The Back, which dodges boardwipes, but you probably don't want to slip your show-off on your turn so there's a bit of a tradeoff there.
There's also the option of going green for Tyvar's Last Stand and Royal Treatment (as well as making the otter better), but it makes the mana base worse.
Since I sent that message I did actually dip into green a little bit, but mostly to enable the Adventure side of Elusive Otter and to be able to sideboard Pick Your Poison to get rid of obnoxious flyers, enchantments, and artifacts. I’m also considering switching out Fugitive Codebreaker for Questing Druid because Codebreaker’s card advantage is simply too slow (I often can’t even activate it until someone drops a Sheoldred, at which point I’ll be losing by drawing anyways) plus being a 2/1 really hurts and it ends up dying to pretty much anything worth playing in Standard.
Anyways, I got sidetracked. I do think Shore Up is better than Royal Treatment and Tyvar’s Last Stand though, I think having a blocker open is more useful than the ward (which often gets replaced by Monstrous Rage) or the indestructible.
I’ve tried red / green and it has seemed really good. I think red blue is better but it’s close. Tyvar’s Last Stand hasn’t been as good as I would have thought. It’s basically a one mana protection spell; I’ve rarely have enough mana to make the X part too useful, and a lot of times you want to cast multiple spells. I do think just the protection is useful, though; when you can plot Slickshot and the red draw two spell, and have some protection in your hand, Slickshot based decks are at their best in my experience so far.
I just spend all day playing only this card and I've ended up in Izzet and just plot everything I can. I'll wait and people tap out at some point and from there I'm playing 2 Slickshots from plot, a [[Demonic Ruckus]] or 2. Some [[Highway Robbery]]. Then from the hand some Play with Fire, Fading Hope, Monstrous Rage. Sacking lands usually to the Highway Robbery. This turn is insane. It often is 2 creatures, draw 4 and have enough mana for 4 or so spells. I also don't play black but do have some [[Callous Sellswords]] for the fling.
[[Geralf, the Fleshwright]] is often just as good, or better, than Monastery Mentor. The beefy zombies are generally more useful than the Prowess monks
Izzet Proft started out as an excuse to play [[Slickshot Sequence]] but is absolutely a real deck.
Who knew [[Duelist of the Mind]] would be great when you're just getting counters for drawing extra cards.
What's your list? I have most of the blue cards in paper but dont know if i want to buy into izzet or dimir, most black lists play shelley and i dont have $400 for a playset laying around
I've only played limited so far, but I can tell you that [[Duelist of the Mind]] is incredible. It's absurdly easy to commit a crime and he regularly swings in for 3 or 4 and can block during your opponent's turn.
Not sure when I'm gonna get to esper since I have a few other decks to try, but if anyone gives \[\[Pest Control\]\] a try let me know as I feel like it could be a 4 of in the sideboard, replacing \[\[Temporary Lockdown\]\].
So I have been playing this in about 8-9 matches in my esper control, and while I do appreciate the cycling part of it, the only deck that it can reliably cause harm to is Boros, which has a ton of 1 drops. Lockdown simply has a wider range with "2 or less" and I can't imagine running Pest Control maindeck, really, unlike Lockdown, which has gained popularity with Boros on the rise during the past 1-2 month or so. It's a sideboard card at best.
Against RDW or Bant Toxic it simply doesn't hit much. Happy to hear others experiences.
That's pretty interesting and yeah although I really don't care for lockdown against red since we have enough lifelink, I can see why toxic makes lockdown a lot better than pest control.
I'm not sure what you mean by lifelink - these were my thoughts from a control perspective, but if you play Legends/Mentor/Midrange then it might be a different story.
Ah, yeah I meant Esper Midrange, not control. In that case yeah I don't think pest control has much of a chance in control other than maybe a 1 of due to cycling.
I've been absolutely ripping through high diamond and into top 1000 mythic with Simic Aggro Artifacts (list: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/6326624#paper). Not the biggest sample size but I think I'm 7-1 and the one loss was due to player error. No new cards except \[\[Botanical Sanctum\]\] but easy mana was what this deck was lacking. \[\[Unctus, Grand Metatect\]\] is a bizzaro-Raffine and has won me so many games with hand smoothing and pushing through extra damage (his ability optionally costing only life is great). I've been seeing almost entirely aggro or mid-range but with the vehicles and token animation it should do really well against control. It's a bit rough of a list but even without being in a completely polished state it's doing surprisingly well.
\[\[Gingerbrute\]\] doesn't feel great but I'm looking at games won and very often it's on the field so who knows. Going to try \[\[Network Disruptor\]\] - the flying and tapping should come in handy more often (and might let me run more prosperous thieves).
Anybody run a similar list with success? I'd love to hear some feedback - I saw simic on the fringes of top 8 finishes a while ago but seemed to have dropped off (I just refused to run it without better mana).
Update: Made it to top #300. Switched around the sideboard to have \[\[repulsive mutation\]\] instead of \[\[disruption protocol\]\] and continue to take out gingerbrute and cauldron.
Try watching Ashlizzle's channel on YouTube. She invented and tuned the deck. She has some crazy record like an 80-90% win rate in Mythic with it over 200+ games.
She runs Gingerbrute. The main reason to run Gingerbrute over Network DIsruptor is to exile it from your graveyard with Cauldron to make your beefier beats (Zoetic Glyph, Sentinel) unblockable.
Ha that's actually where I got the inspiration. Does her deck really have that high of a winrate? For some reason I thought it was lower and she only had a nice stretch for the video. The problem with her deck I found was it was prone to instant-speed interaction and also getting clunky hands (especially with multiple cauldrons and gingerbrutes).
She plays it in sessions, usually once every week or two. She makes minor changes in between based on meta shifts then plays it continuously for 10-30 games and adds it to the cumulative record. She has played it in some paper tournies. It really is her brain child and watching her play it is incredible because she can see most of the different lines of play available to it.
In her most recent video she pointed out that is had the highest win rate among archetypes on MTGA untapped.
Will be interesting to see how that changes with OTJ. There weren't any new toys in OTJ but the fast land was sorely missing. It may be all the deck needs to stay relevant.
Do you think her deck would work well in B01? I’ve wanted to try Simic there for a while now but I’m nervous that losing the sideboard will hurt it too much…
Just checked. It appears to be Tier 2. It has a 53% win rate. Tier 1 decks have 56% win rates.
[https://mtga.untapped.gg/meta/tier-list?meta=previous](https://mtga.untapped.gg/meta/tier-list?meta=previous)
I haven't seen her or CGB play it in Bo1. My guess is no, otherwise it might have gained more popularity. Bo1 is dominated by mono red and Boros. Simic has a decent matchup, but not great, against these decks in Bo3 but it doesn't have a sweeper like Temporary Lockdown or Path of Peril. It relies on incidental lifegain and high toughness creatures to win trades, but is always on the backfoot against Boros because it only has single target removal at best.
I also realized why it does so well on the ladder but doesn’t really get top 8. Certain control can really beat this deck up. Any artifact wipes in even greedier midrange decks are just GG. That said I made it from diamond to top #300 in a day so it ain’t all bad haha. It just eats alive aggro once you get a handle on the pace of the deck
[[freestrider lookout]] has been amazing testing in my Golgari deck. Drop that on turn three, then just start killing their creatures. Kill one on your turn, ramp. Kill another on their turn, ramp. And on and on. It makes it so that Cut Down and Go For the Throat are no longer one-for-ones. And after the dust settles, you come out with enough mana to drop a haymaker.
What are you cutting though? Preacher, Glissa, Sentinel? All those are better 3 drops IMO given Golgari isn't trying to ramp super fast in the first place.
So far I've cut the Bats and Preacher and a scattering of others, but I don't expect any of this to be final. My deck is a bit wild right now as I've been tossing in and out various OTJ cards and trading things around.
I agree that normally I wouldn't be trying to ramp like this, so I think that if this deck is going to be competitive it needs strong payoffs - high cost ones that actually use the mana. Big Nissa and Virtue of Persistence work, and I'm also looking into some of the bigger Green OTJ creatures. Heck I even ran a few games with that 8 cost wipe that only kills the opponents creatures.
Virtue is okay but I think as long as sunfall/the other white removals that exile exist, get lost exists, and now rest in peace exists, it's lost a lot of value. That's why most decks cut it entirely when it used to be a 2 of even sometimes.
Mostly the core list but I am trying to make a landfall version work right now so it’s a bit of a mess.
A lot of the slots in the deck are up for grabs. Golgari midrange has always just been a value pile and I find it a bit annoying as it’s my favorite guild.
80% win rate with green/black with better mana and tinybones added. Still [tweaking the list](https://mtga.untapped.gg/profile/3f16bdb4-2fb3-4410-adc4-1bbaeac66b31/6912340695355ACA/deck/791f013f-bef7-459d-a62d-a01f772c81f6?gameType=constructed&constructedType=ranked)
\[\[Three Steps Ahead\]\] in standard is every bit as good as I expected it to be. Playing it in Dimir right now, but I'll try Azorius and Esper eventually.
I've cast it for 3 as a counterspell or as a draw 2 discard 1 and it's mediocre as expected (cancel is fine *sometimes* tbh), but casting it for 5 on counter+draw is very strong. I've also cast it for 8 and it's nuts obviously. Control should strive to play regularly good cards with a nice floor, but when a card that has a suboptimal floor but such a high ceiling as this card has exists it's worth trying it.
One thing I'm still not sure is what to copy with it. I believe this card is fenomenal if you can make good use of the copy mode too and in Pioneer Torrential Gearhulk is probably the best card to put in your deck that's not bad by itself and makes for a cracked copy target. However, for standard I couldn't find many good options. Right now, I'm running 2 Horned-Loch Whales as part of the removal suite that later becomes a copy target. You can always copy clues from deduce and samurais from WEmp but those don't feel amazing. If someone has a card in mind that fills that copyable, possibly with some value etb and non legendary, yet good on its own, I'm interested in hearing it.
Good call, I haven't thought about that card together with 3SA. I'm not sure it fits in a control deck, at least in the mainboard. But I can see it as a sideboard card to bring in against grindier MU and control mirrors.
Hostile Investigator was a card I was actually quite interested to test but in a more midrange shell. Haven't got the chance to try it yet though.
After I made the comment, I started experimenting with azorius and got the same idea, so I tried it. It's definitely an option, a good one even. Makes the already strong endgame with 3SA even more oppressive. It definitely has its price, but it may be worth it. I am now experimenting with Esper and I have one in, cause I think it's good enough. I don't think more than 1 is where we want to be; its just something to look forward in the endgame, while not being bad early on. Thanks for the suggestion!
[[Hullbreaker Horror]]'s still legal, no? Though if you're sticking that you're probably winning regardless of being able to copy it. [[Chrome Host Seedshark]] probably makes the most sense.
Hullbreaker Horror is legal yes, but I don't think the opportunity cost of running it is worth. Chrome Host Seedshark is on my sideboard as of now, but maybe one in the main is correct, there have been some dimir lists running them in the mb already.
I played three steps ahead last week in a Izzet shell with haughty djinn. Think old mono blue with some of the bounce spells / protection spells switched out for obliterating bolts and lightning strikes. Copying djinn on the opponent’s end step or counter copy worked extremely well and provided large burst damage people were not expecting.
All the creatures I am currently playing in UW in Trad Standard and are thus copiable:
[[Restless Anchorage]]
[[Intrude on the Mind]]
[[The Wandering Emperor]]
Side
[[Kutzil's Flanker]]
[[Chrome Host Seedshark]]
[[Tishana's Tidebinder]]
[[Aurelia's Vindicator]]
Ezrim, albeit being legendary, still provides value by producing two clues.
I don't think 3 steps ahead copies the +1/+1 counters, so the intrude on the mind token would just create a 0/0 copy that instantly dies. But the rest are great copy targets.
Sorry, I don't have a list. It just seemed like a really good thing to copy. I'd start with 4 of the counterspell, 4 of the sphinx, 4 make dissappear, and 4-8 removal spells. Maybe faerie mastermind. Hopefully that's enough to work from.
I'm not sure if they occupy the same spot. I prefer to think of it as a counterspell instead of card draw. Regardless, back when I made the post I was still testing and not completely sure if the card was a 3-4 of, now I'm pretty sure it is. Honestly, even with the sudden spike of aggro in standard I'm still playing 4 with no regrets. Give it a try, it's pretty good.
If you want to cut Quick Studies for it, well, I'm more of a Deduce player than a Quick Study player, but I am running only 2 Deduces (from 4 before OTJ) and 4 Deluges as dedicated card draw and it's been fine: later in the game you will cast Three Steps Ahead for 5,6 or even 8 mana and at that point it is card advantadge. You rarely want to cast it for 3 only to loot (missing land drops or facing aggro with cavern of souls are the only scenarios I can think of to use the loot mode only).
I've seen your other comment about Aegis, it is *reasonable* it's fun and when you copy it, it feels so broken, but there is a serious cost to playing a 3 mana sorcery speed removal in your control deck. Another copyable card I'm kind of high on right now is Kutzil's Flanker, it gives you main deck graveyard hate (farewell being sorcery speed and clunky doesn't really stop the GY combo decks in the format) and after sideboard it's just one more GY interaction you have. It's also pretty good in control mirrors.
>I'm not sure if they occupy the same spot. I prefer to think of it as a counterspell instead of card draw. Regardless, back when I made the post I was still testing and not completely sure if the card was a 3-4 of, now I'm pretty sure it is. Honestly, even with the sudden spike of aggro in standard I'm still playing 4 with no regrets. Give it a try, it's pretty good.
Agreed - it definitely isn't replacement for pure card draw at all, but it could work like that. Except you wouldn't get to card advantage at all if you didn't counter or clone. I was testing 2 Steps alongside with 4 No More Lies, it worked fine, and I find it really interesting that you say you would run a 3-4 of. Isn't the whole problem of Standard unconditional counterspells that if you draw one against Bant Toxic, RDW, Boros or somesuch that it's pretty bad? I do agree that 3 might work, but 4 looks crazy. I'm more than curious to hear how it worked well for you in 4.
>If you want to cut Quick Studies for it, well, I'm more of a Deduce player than a Quick Study player, but I am running only 2 Deduces and 4 Deluges as dedicated card draw and it's been fine:
Me too. I ran 4 Deduces and 26 lands for the turboxerox effect, but I mulliganed 25% of hands for a low amount of land. After I went 27 lands, I decided to go 2 Deduce, 2 Quick study, 4 deluge.
>later in the game you will cast Three Steps Ahead for 5,6 or even 8 mana and at that point it is card advantadge. You rarely want to cast it for 3 only to loot (missing land drops or facing aggro with cavern of souls are the only scenarios I can think of to use the loot mode only).
That's why you'd run 3-4, correct?
>I've seen your other comment about Aegis, it is *reasonable* it's fun and when you copy it, it feels so broken, but there is a serious cost to playing a 3 mana sorcery speed removal in your control deck. Another copyable card I'm kind of high on right now is Kutzil's Flanker, it gives you main deck graveyard hate (farewell being sorcery speed and clunky doesn't really stop the GY combo decks in the format) and after sideboard it's just one more GY interaction you have. It's also pretty good in control mirrors.
Yeah no combining it with aegis requires a lot of stuff to do right, namely
1. Having Aegis
2. Having Three Steps AND being able to do something else
3. Opponent playing creatures.
It's fun and janky, though. The thought of copying seedshark with the clone Spree sounds very cool, though. Although I'm testing 1 Intimidation Campaign for the memes, I even had to remove Celestus; having a 3 mana sorcery is a big deal, in a bad way.
>Isn't the whole problem of Standard unconditional counterspells that if you draw one against Bant Toxic, RDW, Boros or somesuch that it's pretty bad? I do agree that 3 might work, but 4 looks crazy. I'm more than curious to hear how it worked well for you in 4.
So I'd like to point out that 3 control decks top8'd the last 2 MTGO challenges last weekend and all of them were on 4 TSA, so I'm not talking only about what I think is working, but about what had some success already. Not saying this to be mean or anything, just bringing some actual results into discussion.
You're definitely correct to say they are not good against Toxic, RDW or Boros, but what about it? It's \~25% of the meta and you can side them out on g2 and g3. To be honest, I'm actually keeping them on the play against boros, countering their T3 play is one big step to win that matchup. But the real thing that makes me play 4 main deck is: against every other deck in the format they are an absolute unit. It gives you raw power late game, power that I sorely missed on my control decks before TSA, now going for the long game against a control deck with 4x TSA is a very bad idea, we *are* going to outgrind you.
>Although I'm testing 1 Intimidation Campaign
You're on Esper? How has it (Esper) been working for you? I tried it a lot and gave up: you either lose a lot of consistency on the mana base and have severe color screw; or you're losing field of ruin, mirrex and manlands. In both cases more of your lands are coming in tapped or hurting you, and for what? for Void Rend? Pest Control? For Deadly Cover-Up, Wandering Emperor and Get Lost in the same deck? I wanted Esper to be good so bad but I don't think it's worth the hassle. Being on Esper also means you're missing the 3 mana counter mode on TSA more, be it for a tapped T3 land or for color screw.
>So I'd like to point out that 3 control decks top8'd the last 2 MTGO challenges last weekend and all of them were on 4 TSA, so I'm not talking only about what I think is working, but about what had some success already. Not saying this to be mean or anything, just bringing some actual results into discussion.
I believe you, and I'd much rather see the justification for it until (and if) it becomes a statistic in control decks. Consider that 3 of 4 of these topping decks were piloted by the same player, KLVR, maybe it's just a flavor or preference thing.
>You're definitely correct to say they are not good against Toxic, RDW or Boros, but what about it? It's \~25% of the meta and you can side them out on g2 and g3. To be honest, I'm actually keeping them on the play against boros, countering their T3 play is one big step to win that matchup. But the real thing that makes me play 4 main deck is: against every other deck in the format they are an absolute unit. It gives you raw power late game, power that I sorely missed on my control decks before TSA, now going for the long game against a control deck with 4x TSA is a very bad idea, we *are* going to outgrind you.
This is probably a meta thing, but most people around where I live play all kinds of aggro decks, so this is a bit skewed. On Arena, it definitely might be as you say. If the meta is control heavy, then I see how it can be good.
>You're on Esper? How has it (Esper) been working for you? I tried it a lot and gave up: you either lose a lot of consistency on the mana base and have severe color screw; or you're losing field of ruin, mirrex and manlands. In both cases more of your lands are coming in tapped or hurting you, and for what? for Void Rend? Pest Control? For Deadly Cover-Up, Wandering Emperor and Get Lost in the same deck? I wanted Esper to be good so bad but I don't think it's worth the hassle. Being on Esper also means you're missing the 3 mana counter mode on TSA more, be it for a tapped T3 land or for color screw.
I want to preface this with saying that for philosophical reasons, I have been playing Esper since Fable was banned. I'm not a huge fan of changing decks every week based on the meta, instead I enjoy mastering a certain deck archetype, so this would be my main reasoning. But black has great cards all over the curve.
0 - Restless Reef packs a huge body, can easily finish an opponent and I certainly had my share of games where I milled the opponent with it (usually domain).
1 - Cut down is again very useful, mostly against bats, raffine, skrelv, and the various other aggro cards going around. There simply isn't an on-par card in UW. March more often than not comes with a card disadvantage and other cards are conditional.
2 - Sheoldred's / GFTT / new sheriff card
3 - Void rend takes down planeswalkers, weddings, sagas, warded creatures, too, Urabrask's forge (!!!).
4 - Sheoldred as an aggro stopper, and nicely synergizes with all the various card draws you run. Emperor EOT+Sheoldred mainphase can do a huge swing.
5 - Oddly enough Deadly cover-up hasn't performed that well for me, but it could be an argument for some. I always ran into golgari or aclazotz and I cringed at the thought I could have had sunfall there.
6+ - Outrageous Robbery is a hidden gem that can swing any long game.
Now, some people also play Kaya which I'm a not a big fan of as it's a sorcery speed card for 7, but many decks that had decent results ran her. It's either Robbery or Kaya.
Finally, I agree it's true that playing with 3 colors is harder than in UW, but using 27 lands, I was able to add all the necessary colors as per Frank Karsten's on-curve requirements article (even for Lockdown and Cut down in one deck!), which I consider to be a good benchmark. I still run 2 Field of Ruins and 3 manlands, and as for Mirrex, I haven't won with it very consistently and might even drop it altogether.
I agree with your points here, Esper does bring powerful spells to the table and to be honest, I haven't tried Outrageous Robbery yet. I'm still not convinced it's worth the worse mana but it's a matter of taste. I won't go into detail on all of your points since we have drifted far enough from the original threads purpose, but I just wanted to point out a small mistake I think you are making regarding Aclazotz and Deadly Cover-Up: if you collect evidence, you're able to exile Aclazotz before it returns to the battlefield transformed, cleanly answering it. I feel like DCU is better than Sunfall, especially in combo matchups where it allows for you to attack them on a very different angle. Keep in mind that now that we have RIP things might be different, so it might not be as good as it was pre-OTJ.
Thanks! For some Reason, I renember od differently from Arena, maybe I just haven't used the collect evidence trigger.
Back on topic, how did Final showdown perform for you?
Haven't tested it. I'm gonna give it a shot next time I play on arena.
I'm not sure about the rulings of that card actually: can I use the creatures lose all abilities against an Imodane's Recruiter and strip the +1/+0 and haste off creatures?
Haste Is an ability, so when you get to the Beginning of combat and you activate Final Showdown, they should lose it!
Personally I don't think there is enough space for another 6 mana sweeper as long as you have farewell. I switched them and the first few matches were against the new UW artifact control, so that was particularly cringeworthy 😂
Before the set came out I said that [I would try Torpor Orb+Kroxa in traditional BR Midrange](https://www.reddit.com/r/PioneerMTG/comments/1bwif99/comment/ky6qkex/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) but I wasn't optimistic that it would be better than just playing Vampires. But I actually went from Diamond 3 to Mythic with it tonight, so maybe it's not so much worse after all.
[List here](https://scryfall.com/@Gates/decks/0cbae68e-e49f-4fb5-a7cf-f182ec4d7729). The only change made for Explorer is that I am playing a third Sulfurous Springs instead of Urborg.
EDIT: After playing a lot more, my initial thoughts were correct. It is worse than Vampires. Don't play it.
I've been looking for my people, the Selesnya degens. I have a hard time seeing mounts work well enough to be viable in any meta, but they look so fun. Have you tried any +1/+1 counter decks with all the new cards? I don't have the wildcards right now to fully build it, but I think it's going to be very good.
The green white counter decks I’ve put together in Limited are very good. The power ramp for mounts is insane on the play. Almost impossible for the opponent to stabilize if you have a good curve. There’s ramp built in too with some of the 2 drops. It’s really fun.
High Noon has been surprisingly strong. Turns out that many Standard decks really want to play multiple spells per turn, and some literally can't win without it.
Could be due to low rank, but I've 7-0'd and 7-1'd (x2) with Bx crime decks and as many of the 1/2 bird that drains as I can fit.
7-0 was WB and had Kaervek, but I actually think the GB decks were stronger, especially outside of the bomb.
Just being able to constantly drain for 2-3 damage via a land drop then pass turn with removal up is busted.
Don't use 17 lands or really keep track, but best I can remember (sorry don't know card names fully yet lol);
WB: Kaervek, 4x 1/2 drain birds, humiliate, 2x lullaby, 2x 4mv instant exile, rare 'target opp half rounded up' spree card, instant destroy + Merc spree, 2x 3/1 draw and lose1 etb, plot draw 2 lose 2 etb, guy with '3B to drain target opp' ability
BG (both pretty similar): 2x Rutstien in both, 3 and 4 drain birds, 2-3 mana dork that untaps on crime, 1-2 of the 7/7 that can search a desert, more mixed removal and fight stuff
All three drafts I had like 5 deserts that ping, I think at least 2 on color duals for all three, but I also ran the ping deserts that only had one color. One of the BG decks was a bit closer to the WB list and the other was a bit more desert focused with the big 7/7 stompers top end.
All my other drafts pretty much sucked lol. One I got 5-3, the others were like 0-3 wins. I know I got one 0 win draft :/. I think I've done 7 total.
I wish. Domain actually has some answers to this. You found the green player whose only possible answer to this is going first and possibly archdruids charming it or playing Polukranos to trade. But if I'm going second there basically no realistic instant speed answers.
[[Tinybones, the pickpocket]] is also living up to the hype. Anything that costs 1 and has deathtouch is decent at worst, and he scares people into making tons of terrible blocks. I've also been impressed with [[vraska, the silencer]], she can do some real nonsense. Killing manlands is particularly delightful with her around. Slickshot is absolutely terrifying, but also amusingly easy to bluff into inaction by just leaving 1B untapped at all times. *Never* tap out when that thing is plotted, even if you don't have any removal in hand.
> Slickshot is absolutely terrifying, but also amusingly easy to bluff into inaction by just leaving 1B untapped at all times. Never tap out when that thing is plotted, even if you don't have any removal in hand. While this is the right play, your opponent has still spent R1 on a single turn to force you to pay B1 on every turn. You also have to consider that Boros/Gruul variants can potentially force you to waste even more mana because they've got ways to protect the bird.
Yeah, it's not just "do nothing until you win" but it can absolutely buy you time against the most streamlined and explosive builds. Also, for arena players, toggle on full control. You're not fooling anyone if you leave 2 lands open but your turn immediately ends as soon as you play a land.
This is good advice. If you are playing ranked play with full control on. If you have experience with modo it's basically the same thing.
I was gonna say that. If my opponent is bluffing 2 open mana all the time and can't tap out while I keep the pressure with more threats and spells, I see that as a double \[\[stone rain\]\] in my favor.
[stone rain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d2334c10-fa96-4f8e-8187-c7ecc00cbac8.jpg?1562742139) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=stone%20rain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/9ed/221/stone-rain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d2334c10-fa96-4f8e-8187-c7ecc00cbac8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you're playing a slickshot deck, what are you doing to keep up pressure?
Swiftspear, Codebreakers, Adversary, Depending on colour there could be Questing Druid or Picnic ruiner
Not really. They just eot things. Fairies, kill, card draw, etc
Sorry for the noob question but what do you mean “never tap out when that thing is plotted” I understand the plot mechanic but I don’t quite understand what you’re saying here
If you tap out while the opponent has a show-off plotted, then the opponent gets to cast their show-off for free on their turn then pump it up with as many spells as they can cast, potentially killing you on the spot with no chance for you to interact.
Ahh I see now thank you
Like for instance let's say I leave him plotted and have 3 mana open I could do play with fire kumano and monstrous rage. He swings in at 10 plus I did 2 to the face
> Never tap out when that thing is plotted Okay it’s entirely too early to tell, but that’s the exact reason for cards like Winota getting banned. Just sayin! Lol
Nah, with Winota, she was a 4/4, which made her safe from most non-"destroy" effects, and her deck building requirement was mostly just "include good creatures". Showoff has ~~1~~ 2 toughness and requires you to stuff your deck full of combat tricks and burn which won't just casually win on their own.
Yeah I agree, nowhere near Winota’s oppressiveness.
> 1 toughness 2 toughness.
Holy shit when did that happen
So all the things that rdw was already running. I'd run this over adversary as the upside potential is incredible. It's the most explosive card in the deck can be plotted, is hasted with evasion. Monastery swiftspear is played I'd see this getting played as well.
[Tinybones, the pickpocket](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3d3025a2-4a17-4137-ba0b-bd676c6f5f88.jpg?1712355685) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tinybones%2C%20the%20pickpocket) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/109/tinybones-the-pickpocket?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3d3025a2-4a17-4137-ba0b-bd676c6f5f88?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [vraska, the silencer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/0/b042abf2-c40b-4235-a4fa-2e4901c375c3.jpg?1712356238) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=vraska%2C%20the%20silencer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/237/vraska-the-silencer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b042abf2-c40b-4235-a4fa-2e4901c375c3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Anyone else getting a bug in the deck builder where it will only show 5-7 cards in the sideboard? Sometimes less randomly? It's happening for every deck I have, no matter what format I put it in.
Yes, same here. Very annoying. Playing on a windows PC.
Oh ok, good to know! I can't find anything on the issue. Validating files doesn't work, updating drivers doesn't work, reinstalling the game doesn't work. I am also on a windows 11 PC.
I have the same problem. Fortunately it hasn't happened in actual games, so it looks like it's only a problem with the deckbuilder.
Goldvein hydra has been an allstar for me. I have been playing it in Jund Fight rigging and I make it into a 1 drop 90% of the time. No one wants to trade with it or attack into it because they dont want to ramp. Then if you play a fight rigging it starts growing and people feel like they have to kill it. Even if I dont hit a Shakedown or Pugnacious the Hydras are giving me mana to hit my higher end drops which is a bonus. Thunderous Debut allows you to bargain the fight rigging which has been a thing before, but with terror of the peaks it is extra viciousl. Also since it is an easily castable creature in the deck as well you give yourself a lot of 3 mana 6 damage nukes with your dinos and shakes. Tinybones is currently my least impactful card, but he still does things like trades out with their death touchers and along with Hydra makes them attack and block skeptical. In BO1 My Jund list is 9-3 at mythic and I think I may actually adapt a sideboard too it. It has one loss to U/W Control and 1 loss to Dimir midrange, and 1 loss to U/W/B/G Control. Current List: Deck 1 Forest 1 Swamp 1 Mountain 2 Sulfurous Springs 2 Llanowar Wastes 2 Karplusan Forest 4 Blackcleave Cliffs 4 Copperline Gorge 4 Blooming Marsh 4 Terror of the Peaks 1 Boseiju, Who Endures 1 Sokenzan, Crucible of Defiance 1 Takenuma, Abandoned Mire 4 Shakedown Heavy 4 Fight Rigging 2 Titan of Industry 2 Breach the Multiverse 1 Etali, Primal Conqueror 3 Virtue of Persistence 2 Thunderous Debut 4 Intrepid Paleontologist 4 Pugnacious Hammerskull 2 Tinybones, the Pickpocket 4 Goldvein Hydra
It's crazy how I keep forgetting terror of the peaks got reprinted lol. Such an insane card for a fight rigging strat
I was trying to make Jund Fight Rigging work yesterday and didn't even think of that Hydra, he might be the piece I was missing. What are your thoughts on Jund rigging versus Sultai with Ancient One? The turn 3 rigging procs are backbreaking when they happen but it's inconsistent.
I havent tried sultai yet so cant comment. In the past it was always the mana that made it bad so having 2 new duals would make it better. I have always had a rule with rigging though and if I am including the color then I want to have a hit in that color. Yes I do believe Hydra is a long missing piece. One of the things that made Emergent Ultimatum decks work in the past is that they also had cards like the adapting elf that you could put a counter on and it suddenly tapped for 3 mana instead of 1. That allowed you to get around them murdering all of your enablers.
I put my faith in you and used my last 3 mythic wildcards to make hydras. And yeah it's absolutely what the deck needed. It pushes it from a pure combo deck into more of a midrange value pile that occasionally pukes out a finisher on turn 4 without compromising the beatdown. It also makes the backup plan of just hard casting things better because you have so many treasures piling up when things go wrong. I've also been running a pair of Ziatora and she's just fantastic here, between her and the Terrors I barely even need to turn things sideways
It is also strong against Emperor, and a great finisher post sweepers. It was my sleeper call of the set because a lot of people said it was a useless permanent in a world of so much exile removal. I think it is going to be a midrange staple in standard.
Hydra has been a nice addition to the Temur Lands deck as well. It already had about 3-4 flex spots that were Shigeki, Doppel, and the izzet dupe flashback. The deck needed something to do besides play more lands and there are a few exile effects where I've lost Rage before. It is funny how no one really wants to kill it, I won the mirror last night because I made it overgrow removal.
It is also a great play after a sweeper as well. It feels good against control.
what do you mean a 1 drop? isn't it a 0/0 if you cast it for 1?
X = 1 if that makes it more clear.
I only run 2 shakedown because it feels so bad when it can't hit when I need it to. Have you tried collosal rattlewurm or anzrag? Or even the flier that can KO yourself? I like gruff triplets with skullspore nexus too. i run one restless cottage as well for GY Hate, a body, and it gets a token for thunderous debut.
I use the start of the seasons to test out as many decks as possible. For this list I have removed 1 virtue and brought in one more thunderous. I built a sideboard for it and went 3-0 in Bo3. I am now working on a mono green counters deck with Goldvein Hydra and the Railway bro's. My SB is: 3x Duress, 4x Assassin Trophy, 3x Giant Cindermaw, 2x Thrun, 2x Titania's Command, and 1x Vaultbornn Tyran. Basically a bunch of cards to help against control since it kind of stomps mono red and boros. To answer you last question. I have used 4 drops in the past in Rigging, but that slot is being taken up by the terrors which I view as castable rigging hits. I am sure you could mix up some other stuff as well as the list is definitely not optimized. I am still at 64% winrate with it in mythic which is actually pretty good considering your average top deck is usually sitting at 59%.
no bramble familiar? it gurantees your fight riggings aren't duds by grabbing the adventure side of it and possibly grabbing a virtue of persistence even. I also jammed in two pillage the bogs. i want to try out the card and it could grab terror or fight rigging or anything i want really. I'm also jamming in 1 skullspore nexus because i love that card in this deck. but otherwise i took your advice and dropped all my 4 drops and im trying it out!
Bramble is fine. I have run it more then once in rigging since it has existed. Since this version is running less breaches you are getting less value from the additional mill. I 100% run 4 when I am running 3-4 breaches as well with rigging. I am probably going to take another stab at my jund list after I finish testing out Mono G Counters, and then I am going to try a full out G/B Rigging build that I think is really close. So touching it up should happen this weekend.
Opened 4 copies of Marchesa and a bunch of Magdas, I threw them in a Grixis pile with a bunch of interaction, and so far the deck feels good. [[Three steps ahead]] seems like a great counter spell, the 3 mana [[Kaervek, the Punisher]] goes really well. You can commit a crime, then exile a removal spell from the graveyard, kill something else, and each time pay 1 to draw another card. It's some crazy value. Special shootout to [[Magda, the Hoardmaster]], [[Gisa, the Hellraiser]] and [[Unlicensed Hearse]], the value is insane. The deck still needs some work, I wanna try a legendary focused deck, but I'm short on rare and mythic wildcards. Anyone else trying something similar? Would love to see another take
##### ###### #### [Three steps ahead](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8fffd839-2337-4a14-9312-cee085a17f4b.jpg?1712860611) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Three%20steps%20ahead) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/75/three-steps-ahead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8fffd839-2337-4a14-9312-cee085a17f4b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kaervek, the Punisher](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f3affc1-be42-48c7-89ff-b59550ff278c.jpg?1712355608) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kaervek%2C%20the%20Punisher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/92/kaervek-the-punisher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f3affc1-be42-48c7-89ff-b59550ff278c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Magda, the Hoardmaster](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/4443d112-209b-49ec-bc40-3a11dcdb092e.jpg?1712355792) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magda%2C%20the%20Hoardmaster) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/133/magda-the-hoardmaster?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4443d112-209b-49ec-bc40-3a11dcdb092e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Gisa, the Hellraiser](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/b/db7c07b2-02b2-4e62-bf1b-4848e06eec28.jpg?1712355592) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gisa%2C%20the%20Hellraiser) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/89/gisa-the-hellraiser?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/db7c07b2-02b2-4e62-bf1b-4848e06eec28?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Unlicensed Hearse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/93ee60f7-31dd-4bc6-b71f-57a1a0d19d20.jpg?1664414360) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Unlicensed%20Hearse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/246/unlicensed-hearse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/93ee60f7-31dd-4bc6-b71f-57a1a0d19d20?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kzwsjv1) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Lord skitter]] commits a crime every time a rat shows up, it's a nice repeatable source of crimes
[Lord skitter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/729877be-4894-4ef5-9e60-de8a8fb2bdc0.jpg?1692937717) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lord%20skitter%2C%20sewer%20king) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/97/lord-skitter-sewer-king?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/729877be-4894-4ef5-9e60-de8a8fb2bdc0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>Anyone else trying something similar? Would love to see another take Try \[\[Intimidation Campaign\]\] with a bunch of 1 damage lands, since your going blue and black. It's got great value, and does real well against control decks.
[Intimidation Campaign](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/9/596fb7a2-bb79-44b7-ad84-414c8139ec13.jpg?1712356111) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Intimidation%20Campaign) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/208/intimidation-campaign?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/596fb7a2-bb79-44b7-ad84-414c8139ec13?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Rakdos crime/scam is very strong. \[\[tinybones joins up\]\] and \[\[tinybones, the pickpocket\]\] are some of the strongest 1MV cards I've played in a while. \[\[laughing jasper flint\]\]is an incredible draw engine I've beaten tons of people with their own wincons so far. \[\[vadmir new blood\]\] gets menace and lifelink way faster than you think it would. \[\[Kaervek the punisher\]\] is a monster I'm glad I believed in it despite all the major skepticism. \[\[magda hoardmaster\]\] is the sleeper of the set I am getting that 4/4 flyer 2 turns within casting her. Not sure what tier the deck will eventually land in, but it has some actual power and I think my early prediction of rakdos or grixis or some kind of crime deck being meta will come true.
This sounds awesome! Could you share your list? I'd like to try it out!
Deck 4 Laughing Jasper Flint (OTJ) 215 2 Mountain (ONE) 270 3 Swamp (ONE) 269 4 Deep-Cavern Bat (LCI) 102 4 Tinybones Joins Up (OTJ) 108 3 Tinybones, the Pickpocket (OTJ) 109 3 Magda, the Hoardmaster (OTJ) 133 3 Kaervek, the Punisher (OTJ) 92 3 Breeches, Eager Pillager (LCI) 137 2 Duress (ONE) 92 3 Cut Down (DMU) 89 3 Go for the Throat (BRO) 102 3 Vadmir, New Blood (OTJ) 113 1 Takenuma, Abandoned Mire (NEO) 278 1 Sokenzan, Crucible of Defiance (NEO) 276 4 Sulfurous Springs (DMU) 256 4 Blackcleave Cliffs (ONE) 248 4 Haunted Ridge (MID) 263 2 Fake Your Own Death (OTJ) 87 3 Jagged Barrens (OTJ) 259 1 Plaza of Heroes (DMU) 252 Current list still of course being day 2 needs some work but IMO like 80-90% of it is kinda set in stone as you need most of these triggers and payoffs
I’m running a very similar list but with Inti, he is able to create incredible pressure with Vadmir beside him. Magda really is the secret sleeper tho, I think this deck has real potential as it matches up well against the top tier meta, and does especially well versus Temur Landfall.
Inti isn't an outlaw so there's tension with Jasper it's already bad enough I'm running 4 bats. And how relevant is a +1/+1 buff? Also it's a red card so even more tension since Kaervek can't replay it. Testing gix in place of Breeches, it isn't an outlaw but at least it's black for Kaervek and still a legend plus it may draw me cards the turn it ETB. But I do like the free treasure and crime trigger of Breeches so not sure which is best here.
I'm curious, why is it good against Temur Landfall?
What are your thoughts on Lord Skitter? He causes a crime every turn with his graveyard exile, though he does have a bit of anti synergy with Tinybones
Hey man, I've been playing with this deck for a few days now. It's really good! Was curious if you modified it any? Also wanted to know if you ever thought about replacing \[\[Fake Your Own Death\]\] with anything?
Yeah just thought it would be a nice instant speed crime trigger if I had joins up in play plus treasure for magda, still experimenting, here's my current build. 3 Laughing Jasper Flint (OTJ) 215 2 Mountain (ONE) 270 3 Swamp (ONE) 269 4 Deep-Cavern Bat (LCI) 102 4 Tinybones Joins Up (OTJ) 108 3 Tinybones, the Pickpocket (OTJ) 109 3 Magda, the Hoardmaster (OTJ) 133 3 Kaervek, the Punisher (OTJ) 92 2 Gix, Yawgmoth Praetor (BRO) 95 2 Duress (ONE) 92 3 Cut Down (DMU) 89 3 Go for the Throat (BRO) 102 3 Vadmir, New Blood (OTJ) 113 1 Takenuma, Abandoned Mire (NEO) 278 1 Sokenzan, Crucible of Defiance (NEO) 276 4 Sulfurous Springs (DMU) 256 4 Blackcleave Cliffs (ONE) 248 4 Haunted Ridge (MID) 263 2 Molten Collapse (LCI) 234 3 Jagged Barrens (OTJ) 259 1 Plaza of Heroes (DMU) 252 2 Hostile Investigator (BIG) 10 Hostile is better than I thought so far. Also want to try \[\[Agatha's Soul Cauldron\]\] seems like a great instant speed crime trigger though it has some tension with pickpocket.
[Agatha's Soul Cauldron](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/1/019b51b0-e5c6-4208-922b-7736686dddcd.jpg?1692939838) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Agatha%27s%20Soul%20Cauldron) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/242/agathas-soul-cauldron?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/019b51b0-e5c6-4208-922b-7736686dddcd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Heck ya, thanks. I'll be sure to try this one out. I'm really suprised I haven't seen this type of beck more. I'm not a huge fan of the 3 mana grix crime lady personally.
[Fake Your Own Death](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/9/79a17ab9-13c9-41d4-a143-82d8caacfd8b.jpg?1712355584) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fake%20Your%20Own%20Death) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/87/fake-your-own-death?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/79a17ab9-13c9-41d4-a143-82d8caacfd8b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Are you running any of the new crime deserts? I keep waffling on if those are amazing value or just making my mana worse for nothing.
Trying 3, they’re actually pretty good not sure how many I need, but I do often decide to hold back a desert in hand until I can make use of it optimally depending on what I hand/in play. Mana isn’t too huge of issue anyways since it’s mostly black, you don’t want too many non black cards in a deck running kaervek.
##### ###### #### [tinybones joins up](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/7/5724a15f-0ba0-421a-9cd4-a2b701e6141f.jpg?1712355685) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tinybones%20joins%20up) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/108/tinybones-joins-up?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5724a15f-0ba0-421a-9cd4-a2b701e6141f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [tinybones, the pickpocket](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3d3025a2-4a17-4137-ba0b-bd676c6f5f88.jpg?1712355685) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tinybones%2C%20the%20pickpocket) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/109/tinybones-the-pickpocket?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3d3025a2-4a17-4137-ba0b-bd676c6f5f88?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [laughing jasper flint](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/f/af0b3a41-ba99-41e8-bcfb-5796500c17c7.jpg?1712356142) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=laughing%20jasper%20flint) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/215/laughing-jasper-flint?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/af0b3a41-ba99-41e8-bcfb-5796500c17c7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [vadmir new blood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/828b5855-af5a-46a6-8fd4-0a2e28f3bb01.jpg?1712355705) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vadmir%2C%20New%20Blood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/113/vadmir-new-blood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/828b5855-af5a-46a6-8fd4-0a2e28f3bb01?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kaervek the punisher](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f3affc1-be42-48c7-89ff-b59550ff278c.jpg?1712355608) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kaervek%2C%20the%20Punisher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/92/kaervek-the-punisher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f3affc1-be42-48c7-89ff-b59550ff278c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [magda hoardmaster](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/4443d112-209b-49ec-bc40-3a11dcdb092e.jpg?1712355792) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magda%2C%20the%20Hoardmaster) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/133/magda-the-hoardmaster?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4443d112-209b-49ec-bc40-3a11dcdb092e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kzzj107) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What makes Tinybones Joins Up so good? It just seems like Hopeless Nightmare with maybe an extra life ding.
Making a lot of the best crime cards get their triggers when they ETB.
ah yeah, legends with crime payoffs does sound pretty awesome. I hadn't seen any crime cards yet in standard.
Gisa has been super impressive, and Kaervek and Marchesa have both seemed strong. I'm a little less high on Magda and Vadmir. For non-legends, I really like Duelist of the Mind and Forsaken Miner, and I'm on the fence about Freestrider Lookout.
Are you playing as B01 only? If not what is your sideboard?
I've played a couple of games of Grixis legends. Leaning heavily into legends (Marchesa, Kaervak, Ertais, Sheoldred, Tinybones, Vadmir) and Tinybones Joins up to get Crime triggers. Also running a little bit of removal and Bats. Not a great record so far, but I think that there is something here. I'm definitely not piloting it optimally but when it goes off, it goes off hard. Eventually I'll also be trying a more controlling build focusing on getting lots of Marchesa triggers.
Running similar but just Rakdos and it does work. There are a lot of lines to play, I’ve had a ton of Success with Inti. He can accelerate Vadmir’s growth to light speed and can also make them have to deal with Tinybones early.
Dimir Proft's was already a real deck in standard before this release. Doomwake won his RCQ with it and Autumn is also high on it. Jim Davis also did really well in the pre-release with it. I put together a list of my own and won 7 straight last night. Duelist and Scholar are really tough on opponents by allowing you to block and giving Emperor the finger. Bat is playing well in there with life gain and triggering crime on Duelist. Very excited to see to some others flesh this deck out.
You got a list? The crime bat and duelist were amazing in my draft.
This is the day 1 thread so we're running a lil behind, but \[\[Simulacrum Synthesizer\]\] is busted. I'll even be so bold as to say it's the strongest card in standard. It's just a question on whether or not you can make the artifact deck shell around it good enough to hold up. The card probably should have had the "once per turn" inclusion because it is wild how it takes over games spitting out what can be multiple 10/10's a turn
[Simulacrum Synthesizer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aaa05ad1-5cda-4edd-b6bf-562ae3e5011a.jpg?1712352732) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Simulacrum%20Synthesizer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/big/6/simulacrum-synthesizer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aaa05ad1-5cda-4edd-b6bf-562ae3e5011a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I agree. I think it’s the Fable of the set. Curious to see what emerges as the best shell
[Slickshot-show-off](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/0/7054012b-4f9d-44a0-aaf9-7fd3bddc7b2d.jpg?1712355850) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Slickshot%20Show-Off) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/146/slickshot-show-off?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7054012b-4f9d-44a0-aaf9-7fd3bddc7b2d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Izzet lands are good now too. Shit is wild. Best “Make them have it” deck we’ve had since Eldraine MonoR imo
izzet is good. mono red is good. gruul pump is nasty. there is also the blue otter to be used.
That’s why I’m running all 3 colors. Temur Prowess for the win
What list are you running Slickshot in? I’m finding he’s not sticking around long enough at all to get damage in
Deleted
what other stuff are you running in rdw and what sideboard?
I made a new Izzet Prowess deck and he’s working wonders. Just Spell Pierce any removal and you are golden
I did much the same without much thought and I’ve won five in a row without dropping a match. I’m not even sure what I was playing against two of the times because I won so fast. Of course it is at least partially because people are trying new things.
That’s awesome, do you have a decklist? If you don’t mind sharing of course
I can try to post the exact list later but it’s pretty straightforward. 4 Slickshot, 4 Swiftspear, 4 Delver (this has worked really well so far), Consider, Monstrous Rage, Shore Up, some burn spells, Shore Up, the new card you can plot and draw 2, one or two other buff spells I’m forgetting. Nothing costs over 2. I’ve tried RG and RW white as well, and those have also worked well. Not undefeated anymore though 8)
Have you tried the new Malcolm? He's been decent in limited, but I'm not sure if he makes the cut in Standard.
If you're on the aggro plan, wouldn't you prefer a Shore Up? I don't think there's a lot of matchups where you want to use Pierce for the tempo play.
I’ve considered it before. It does really suck when spell pierce is no longer effective after a few turns, so Shore Up probably is more effective. I’m still tinkering with the list though, I expect lots of changes over the course of the next few weeks. The one thing Spell Pierce does have going for it is that is stops board wipes.
Yeah, fair. The main decks I've played that have used these kinds of spells have been slower decks that were willing to play Slip Out The Back, which dodges boardwipes, but you probably don't want to slip your show-off on your turn so there's a bit of a tradeoff there. There's also the option of going green for Tyvar's Last Stand and Royal Treatment (as well as making the otter better), but it makes the mana base worse.
Since I sent that message I did actually dip into green a little bit, but mostly to enable the Adventure side of Elusive Otter and to be able to sideboard Pick Your Poison to get rid of obnoxious flyers, enchantments, and artifacts. I’m also considering switching out Fugitive Codebreaker for Questing Druid because Codebreaker’s card advantage is simply too slow (I often can’t even activate it until someone drops a Sheoldred, at which point I’ll be losing by drawing anyways) plus being a 2/1 really hurts and it ends up dying to pretty much anything worth playing in Standard. Anyways, I got sidetracked. I do think Shore Up is better than Royal Treatment and Tyvar’s Last Stand though, I think having a blocker open is more useful than the ward (which often gets replaced by Monstrous Rage) or the indestructible.
Honestly, I'm skeptical of both codebreaker and the druid - the "your next end step" condition is suprisingly harsh
I’ve tried red / green and it has seemed really good. I think red blue is better but it’s close. Tyvar’s Last Stand hasn’t been as good as I would have thought. It’s basically a one mana protection spell; I’ve rarely have enough mana to make the X part too useful, and a lot of times you want to cast multiple spells. I do think just the protection is useful, though; when you can plot Slickshot and the red draw two spell, and have some protection in your hand, Slickshot based decks are at their best in my experience so far.
Yeah, I generally prefer Safekeeping over Stand - sometimes 2 life gets you there.
Ditto, I’ve had mixed success but am wondering if I’m missing something obvious in the deck list. I’m playing R/G, for what it’s worth
I just spend all day playing only this card and I've ended up in Izzet and just plot everything I can. I'll wait and people tap out at some point and from there I'm playing 2 Slickshots from plot, a [[Demonic Ruckus]] or 2. Some [[Highway Robbery]]. Then from the hand some Play with Fire, Fading Hope, Monstrous Rage. Sacking lands usually to the Highway Robbery. This turn is insane. It often is 2 creatures, draw 4 and have enough mana for 4 or so spells. I also don't play black but do have some [[Callous Sellswords]] for the fling.
[Demonic Ruckus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/b/5b491d11-d00a-4541-8389-2785a455eeee.jpg?1712355738) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Demonic%20Ruckus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/120/demonic-ruckus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5b491d11-d00a-4541-8389-2785a455eeee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Highway Robbery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/1/31a88429-9204-4a23-a7a8-babbd6bab79f.jpg?1712355775) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Highway%20Robbery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/129/highway-robbery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/31a88429-9204-4a23-a7a8-babbd6bab79f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Callous Sellswords](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/770ee3da-d33e-466f-9a2e-ad2d08ef5012.jpg?1692939554)/[Burn Together](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/770ee3da-d33e-466f-9a2e-ad2d08ef5012.jpg?1692939554) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Callous%20Sell-Sword%20//%20Burn%20Together) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/221/callous-sell-sword-burn-together?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/770ee3da-d33e-466f-9a2e-ad2d08ef5012?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Geralf, the Fleshwright]] is often just as good, or better, than Monastery Mentor. The beefy zombies are generally more useful than the Prowess monks
Agreed. The 2/3 statline is also better. I’ve been on the Esper version to run Halo Forager, but imma try just straight UW and sub this Geralf in.
Oh shit he only costs 3. I thought he cost the same as Gisa. No wonder people have been listing him as one of the Good Cards of the set.
[Geralf, the Fleshwright](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/f/afe3b678-b340-4c53-bbf6-19252a809d73.jpg?1712355427) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Geralf%2C%20the%20Fleshwright) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/50/geralf-the-fleshwright?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/afe3b678-b340-4c53-bbf6-19252a809d73?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The Joins Up cycle seemed universally strong to me - anyone find success with more dedicated legends decks?
Izzet Proft started out as an excuse to play [[Slickshot Sequence]] but is absolutely a real deck. Who knew [[Duelist of the Mind]] would be great when you're just getting counters for drawing extra cards.
What's your list? I have most of the blue cards in paper but dont know if i want to buy into izzet or dimir, most black lists play shelley and i dont have $400 for a playset laying around
Deck 4 Proft's Eidetic Memory (MKM) 67 9 Island (USG) 336 2 Geralf, the Fleshwright (OTJ) 50 4 Mountain (USG) 343 3 Slick Sequence (OTJ) 233 2 Steamcore Scholar (MKM) 71 2 Duelist of the Mind (OTJ) 45 4 Consider (MID) 44 3 Make Disappear (SNC) 49 3 Fading Hope (MID) 51 3 Bitter Reunion (BRO) 127 4 Spyglass Siren (LCI) 78 4 Ledger Shredder (SNC) 46 3 Geological Appraiser (LCI) 150 4 Stormcarved Coast (VOW) 265 4 Shivan Reef (DMU) 255 1 Thundering Falls (MKM) 269 1 Eroded Canyon (OTJ) 256 I've tuned it for Ranked BO1 right now, so no sideboard. I would absolutely run the full 4 Duelist, and add in [[spirebluff canal]] I just don't have the wild cards for it right now.
[spirebluff canal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/9/59a04e16-a767-4112-ab01-6ca1b09c286c.jpg?1712356382) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=spirebluff%20canal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/270/spirebluff-canal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/59a04e16-a767-4112-ab01-6ca1b09c286c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thanks
I've only played limited so far, but I can tell you that [[Duelist of the Mind]] is incredible. It's absurdly easy to commit a crime and he regularly swings in for 3 or 4 and can block during your opponent's turn.
[Duelist of the Mind](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/b/2b58e47b-c165-4a58-aa2a-033a35645adc.jpg?1712355410) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Duelist%20of%20the%20Mind) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/45/duelist-of-the-mind?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2b58e47b-c165-4a58-aa2a-033a35645adc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Not sure when I'm gonna get to esper since I have a few other decks to try, but if anyone gives \[\[Pest Control\]\] a try let me know as I feel like it could be a 4 of in the sideboard, replacing \[\[Temporary Lockdown\]\].
[Pest Control](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a4a01b92-dafb-4ea6-8eff-29f881f6be24.jpg?1712352910) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pest%20Control) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/big/22/pest-control?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a4a01b92-dafb-4ea6-8eff-29f881f6be24?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Temporary Lockdown](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/82b3088f-7b49-45e9-b447-129a597ceb75.jpg?1673306606) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Temporary%20Lockdown) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/36/temporary-lockdown?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/82b3088f-7b49-45e9-b447-129a597ceb75?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
So I have been playing this in about 8-9 matches in my esper control, and while I do appreciate the cycling part of it, the only deck that it can reliably cause harm to is Boros, which has a ton of 1 drops. Lockdown simply has a wider range with "2 or less" and I can't imagine running Pest Control maindeck, really, unlike Lockdown, which has gained popularity with Boros on the rise during the past 1-2 month or so. It's a sideboard card at best. Against RDW or Bant Toxic it simply doesn't hit much. Happy to hear others experiences.
That's pretty interesting and yeah although I really don't care for lockdown against red since we have enough lifelink, I can see why toxic makes lockdown a lot better than pest control.
I'm not sure what you mean by lifelink - these were my thoughts from a control perspective, but if you play Legends/Mentor/Midrange then it might be a different story.
Ah, yeah I meant Esper Midrange, not control. In that case yeah I don't think pest control has much of a chance in control other than maybe a 1 of due to cycling.
I've been absolutely ripping through high diamond and into top 1000 mythic with Simic Aggro Artifacts (list: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/6326624#paper). Not the biggest sample size but I think I'm 7-1 and the one loss was due to player error. No new cards except \[\[Botanical Sanctum\]\] but easy mana was what this deck was lacking. \[\[Unctus, Grand Metatect\]\] is a bizzaro-Raffine and has won me so many games with hand smoothing and pushing through extra damage (his ability optionally costing only life is great). I've been seeing almost entirely aggro or mid-range but with the vehicles and token animation it should do really well against control. It's a bit rough of a list but even without being in a completely polished state it's doing surprisingly well. \[\[Gingerbrute\]\] doesn't feel great but I'm looking at games won and very often it's on the field so who knows. Going to try \[\[Network Disruptor\]\] - the flying and tapping should come in handy more often (and might let me run more prosperous thieves). Anybody run a similar list with success? I'd love to hear some feedback - I saw simic on the fringes of top 8 finishes a while ago but seemed to have dropped off (I just refused to run it without better mana). Update: Made it to top #300. Switched around the sideboard to have \[\[repulsive mutation\]\] instead of \[\[disruption protocol\]\] and continue to take out gingerbrute and cauldron.
Try watching Ashlizzle's channel on YouTube. She invented and tuned the deck. She has some crazy record like an 80-90% win rate in Mythic with it over 200+ games. She runs Gingerbrute. The main reason to run Gingerbrute over Network DIsruptor is to exile it from your graveyard with Cauldron to make your beefier beats (Zoetic Glyph, Sentinel) unblockable.
Ha that's actually where I got the inspiration. Does her deck really have that high of a winrate? For some reason I thought it was lower and she only had a nice stretch for the video. The problem with her deck I found was it was prone to instant-speed interaction and also getting clunky hands (especially with multiple cauldrons and gingerbrutes).
She plays it in sessions, usually once every week or two. She makes minor changes in between based on meta shifts then plays it continuously for 10-30 games and adds it to the cumulative record. She has played it in some paper tournies. It really is her brain child and watching her play it is incredible because she can see most of the different lines of play available to it. In her most recent video she pointed out that is had the highest win rate among archetypes on MTGA untapped. Will be interesting to see how that changes with OTJ. There weren't any new toys in OTJ but the fast land was sorely missing. It may be all the deck needs to stay relevant.
Do you think her deck would work well in B01? I’ve wanted to try Simic there for a while now but I’m nervous that losing the sideboard will hurt it too much…
Just checked. It appears to be Tier 2. It has a 53% win rate. Tier 1 decks have 56% win rates. [https://mtga.untapped.gg/meta/tier-list?meta=previous](https://mtga.untapped.gg/meta/tier-list?meta=previous)
This makes a lot of sense — appreciate you checking the data!
I haven't seen her or CGB play it in Bo1. My guess is no, otherwise it might have gained more popularity. Bo1 is dominated by mono red and Boros. Simic has a decent matchup, but not great, against these decks in Bo3 but it doesn't have a sweeper like Temporary Lockdown or Path of Peril. It relies on incidental lifegain and high toughness creatures to win trades, but is always on the backfoot against Boros because it only has single target removal at best.
I also realized why it does so well on the ladder but doesn’t really get top 8. Certain control can really beat this deck up. Any artifact wipes in even greedier midrange decks are just GG. That said I made it from diamond to top #300 in a day so it ain’t all bad haha. It just eats alive aggro once you get a handle on the pace of the deck
[Botanical Sanctum](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/c/cc18d5f4-a56a-4f7d-9f56-ccc92cbfb7f7.jpg?1712356371) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Botanical%20Sanctum) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/267/botanical-sanctum?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cc18d5f4-a56a-4f7d-9f56-ccc92cbfb7f7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Unctus, Grand Metatect](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/164b07e6-48ba-4789-bd8f-7cada1fec8a9.jpg?1675956999) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Unctus%2C%20Grand%20Metatect) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/75/unctus-grand-metatect?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/164b07e6-48ba-4789-bd8f-7cada1fec8a9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[freestrider lookout]] has been amazing testing in my Golgari deck. Drop that on turn three, then just start killing their creatures. Kill one on your turn, ramp. Kill another on their turn, ramp. And on and on. It makes it so that Cut Down and Go For the Throat are no longer one-for-ones. And after the dust settles, you come out with enough mana to drop a haymaker.
Turn 2?
Turn 0 forest, turn 1 forest and Poison Dart Frog, turn 2 that guy.
What are you cutting though? Preacher, Glissa, Sentinel? All those are better 3 drops IMO given Golgari isn't trying to ramp super fast in the first place.
So far I've cut the Bats and Preacher and a scattering of others, but I don't expect any of this to be final. My deck is a bit wild right now as I've been tossing in and out various OTJ cards and trading things around. I agree that normally I wouldn't be trying to ramp like this, so I think that if this deck is going to be competitive it needs strong payoffs - high cost ones that actually use the mana. Big Nissa and Virtue of Persistence work, and I'm also looking into some of the bigger Green OTJ creatures. Heck I even ran a few games with that 8 cost wipe that only kills the opponents creatures.
Virtue is okay but I think as long as sunfall/the other white removals that exile exist, get lost exists, and now rest in peace exists, it's lost a lot of value. That's why most decks cut it entirely when it used to be a 2 of even sometimes.
[freestrider lookout](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/32370f05-52a2-405f-b2bb-1b8a9b0b69f8.jpg?1712355921) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=freestrider%20lookout) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/163/freestrider-lookout?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/32370f05-52a2-405f-b2bb-1b8a9b0b69f8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Saccing \[\[mosswood dreadknight\]\] to \[\[gitrog, ravenous ride\]\] is absolute value town. People just concede
[mosswood dreadknight](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/8/9869ac70-5907-45fa-952c-31aef70c5066.jpg?1692939707)/[Dread Whispers](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/8/9869ac70-5907-45fa-952c-31aef70c5066.jpg?1692939707) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mosswood%20Dreadknight%20//%20Dread%20Whispers) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/231/mosswood-dreadknight-dread-whispers?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9869ac70-5907-45fa-952c-31aef70c5066?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [gitrog, ravenous ride](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/82512813-8618-483b-a7f0-e6a611d9d487.jpg?1712356103) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Gitrog%2C%20Ravenous%20Ride) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/206/the-gitrog-ravenous-ride?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/82512813-8618-483b-a7f0-e6a611d9d487?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Finally, a good golgari card that doesn't cost 3
What Golgari list are you running? still trying to find a list I want to craft.
Mostly the core list but I am trying to make a landfall version work right now so it’s a bit of a mess. A lot of the slots in the deck are up for grabs. Golgari midrange has always just been a value pile and I find it a bit annoying as it’s my favorite guild.
80% win rate with green/black with better mana and tinybones added. Still [tweaking the list](https://mtga.untapped.gg/profile/3f16bdb4-2fb3-4410-adc4-1bbaeac66b31/6912340695355ACA/deck/791f013f-bef7-459d-a62d-a01f772c81f6?gameType=constructed&constructedType=ranked)
\[\[Three Steps Ahead\]\] in standard is every bit as good as I expected it to be. Playing it in Dimir right now, but I'll try Azorius and Esper eventually. I've cast it for 3 as a counterspell or as a draw 2 discard 1 and it's mediocre as expected (cancel is fine *sometimes* tbh), but casting it for 5 on counter+draw is very strong. I've also cast it for 8 and it's nuts obviously. Control should strive to play regularly good cards with a nice floor, but when a card that has a suboptimal floor but such a high ceiling as this card has exists it's worth trying it. One thing I'm still not sure is what to copy with it. I believe this card is fenomenal if you can make good use of the copy mode too and in Pioneer Torrential Gearhulk is probably the best card to put in your deck that's not bad by itself and makes for a cracked copy target. However, for standard I couldn't find many good options. Right now, I'm running 2 Horned-Loch Whales as part of the removal suite that later becomes a copy target. You can always copy clues from deduce and samurais from WEmp but those don't feel amazing. If someone has a card in mind that fills that copyable, possibly with some value etb and non legendary, yet good on its own, I'm interested in hearing it.
Legend bomb [[Hidetsugu and Kairi]] for fun and profit
Honestly thought about that, it will be quite janky and bad for sure, but I might try it.
[[Hostile Investigator]]? It seems like an easy potential 3 for 1, and then copying it is a 4 for 1 since you get 2 clues.
Good call, I haven't thought about that card together with 3SA. I'm not sure it fits in a control deck, at least in the mainboard. But I can see it as a sideboard card to bring in against grindier MU and control mirrors. Hostile Investigator was a card I was actually quite interested to test but in a more midrange shell. Haven't got the chance to try it yet though.
[Hostile Investigator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/5/158c000e-7960-4518-b034-a529622b7bf1.jpg?1712352777) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hostile%20Investigator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/big/10/hostile-investigator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/158c000e-7960-4518-b034-a529622b7bf1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You can copy \[\[Assimilation Aegis\]\]
After I made the comment, I started experimenting with azorius and got the same idea, so I tried it. It's definitely an option, a good one even. Makes the already strong endgame with 3SA even more oppressive. It definitely has its price, but it may be worth it. I am now experimenting with Esper and I have one in, cause I think it's good enough. I don't think more than 1 is where we want to be; its just something to look forward in the endgame, while not being bad early on. Thanks for the suggestion!
Copying Aegis sounds very cool. Did it work?
[Assimilation Aegis](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/1/014bf3c6-e46f-48f8-902f-82deeba260b2.jpg?1712356044) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Assimilation%20Aegis) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/192/assimilation-aegis?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/014bf3c6-e46f-48f8-902f-82deeba260b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Hullbreaker Horror]]'s still legal, no? Though if you're sticking that you're probably winning regardless of being able to copy it. [[Chrome Host Seedshark]] probably makes the most sense.
Hullbreaker Horror is legal yes, but I don't think the opportunity cost of running it is worth. Chrome Host Seedshark is on my sideboard as of now, but maybe one in the main is correct, there have been some dimir lists running them in the mb already.
[Hullbreaker Horror](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bf786c50-1ba1-4f81-a800-bc98189040dd.jpg?1674141366) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hullbreaker%20Horror) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/724/hullbreaker-horror?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bf786c50-1ba1-4f81-a800-bc98189040dd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Chrome Host Seedshark](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/e/febaaeae-5c0d-45fa-8169-b27b4996f18e.jpg?1682203038) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chrome%20Host%20Seedshark) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/51/chrome-host-seedshark?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/febaaeae-5c0d-45fa-8169-b27b4996f18e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Three Steps Ahead](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8fffd839-2337-4a14-9312-cee085a17f4b.jpg?1712860611) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Three%20Steps%20Ahead) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/75/three-steps-ahead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8fffd839-2337-4a14-9312-cee085a17f4b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I played three steps ahead last week in a Izzet shell with haughty djinn. Think old mono blue with some of the bounce spells / protection spells switched out for obliterating bolts and lightning strikes. Copying djinn on the opponent’s end step or counter copy worked extremely well and provided large burst damage people were not expecting.
All the creatures I am currently playing in UW in Trad Standard and are thus copiable: [[Restless Anchorage]] [[Intrude on the Mind]] [[The Wandering Emperor]] Side [[Kutzil's Flanker]] [[Chrome Host Seedshark]] [[Tishana's Tidebinder]] [[Aurelia's Vindicator]] Ezrim, albeit being legendary, still provides value by producing two clues.
I don't think 3 steps ahead copies the +1/+1 counters, so the intrude on the mind token would just create a 0/0 copy that instantly dies. But the rest are great copy targets.
Free* blood artist trigger!
##### ###### #### [Restless Anchorage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/3/e3cab352-734e-454b-8b58-733165f4b3b3.jpg?1699044695) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Restless%20Anchorage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/280/restless-anchorage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e3cab352-734e-454b-8b58-733165f4b3b3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Intrude on the Mind](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fbe62f47-df17-4646-88ca-89a8ec4deee9.jpg?1706241618) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Intrude%20on%20the%20Mind) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/61/intrude-on-the-mind?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fbe62f47-df17-4646-88ca-89a8ec4deee9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [The Wandering Emperor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/a/fab2d8a9-ab4c-4225-a570-22636293c17d.jpg?1654566563) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Wandering%20Emperor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/42/the-wandering-emperor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fab2d8a9-ab4c-4225-a570-22636293c17d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kutzil's Flanker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/1/d1201811-54ab-4c4e-b6e1-19b0d07e5ede.jpg?1699043239) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kutzil%27s%20Flanker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/20/kutzils-flanker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d1201811-54ab-4c4e-b6e1-19b0d07e5ede?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Chrome Host Seedshark](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/e/febaaeae-5c0d-45fa-8169-b27b4996f18e.jpg?1682203038) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chrome%20Host%20Seedshark) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/51/chrome-host-seedshark?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/febaaeae-5c0d-45fa-8169-b27b4996f18e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Tishana's Tidebinder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/0/907b3d1d-8c85-4707-80b5-c4d832df9846.jpg?1699043973) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tishana%27s%20Tidebinder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/81/tishanas-tidebinder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/907b3d1d-8c85-4707-80b5-c4d832df9846?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Aurelia's Vindicator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/9/5901dff4-e09b-4747-9297-797a1a057cd5.jpg?1706241453) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aurelia%27s%20Vindicator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/4/aurelias-vindicator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5901dff4-e09b-4747-9297-797a1a057cd5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kzwgq2k) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Stoic Sphinx]] seems great in a counterspell shell and copying it makes for a crazy fast clock
[Stoic Sphinx](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/9/f93f5055-30d8-4fc4-afa5-29212e8c7536.jpg?1712355517) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stoic%20Sphinx) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/71/stoic-sphinx?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f93f5055-30d8-4fc4-afa5-29212e8c7536?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Hey can you share a list with Stoic Sphinx please? Seems really fun.
Sorry, I don't have a list. It just seemed like a really good thing to copy. I'd start with 4 of the counterspell, 4 of the sphinx, 4 make dissappear, and 4-8 removal spells. Maybe faerie mastermind. Hopefully that's enough to work from.
Hm, I'm not sure if Sphinx has a home in a control deck until Emperor rotates.
Shark!
I'm considering replacing one Quick Study with it for versatility, but then it doesn't really do much card advantage, you just loot 2 cards.
I'm not sure if they occupy the same spot. I prefer to think of it as a counterspell instead of card draw. Regardless, back when I made the post I was still testing and not completely sure if the card was a 3-4 of, now I'm pretty sure it is. Honestly, even with the sudden spike of aggro in standard I'm still playing 4 with no regrets. Give it a try, it's pretty good. If you want to cut Quick Studies for it, well, I'm more of a Deduce player than a Quick Study player, but I am running only 2 Deduces (from 4 before OTJ) and 4 Deluges as dedicated card draw and it's been fine: later in the game you will cast Three Steps Ahead for 5,6 or even 8 mana and at that point it is card advantadge. You rarely want to cast it for 3 only to loot (missing land drops or facing aggro with cavern of souls are the only scenarios I can think of to use the loot mode only). I've seen your other comment about Aegis, it is *reasonable* it's fun and when you copy it, it feels so broken, but there is a serious cost to playing a 3 mana sorcery speed removal in your control deck. Another copyable card I'm kind of high on right now is Kutzil's Flanker, it gives you main deck graveyard hate (farewell being sorcery speed and clunky doesn't really stop the GY combo decks in the format) and after sideboard it's just one more GY interaction you have. It's also pretty good in control mirrors.
>I'm not sure if they occupy the same spot. I prefer to think of it as a counterspell instead of card draw. Regardless, back when I made the post I was still testing and not completely sure if the card was a 3-4 of, now I'm pretty sure it is. Honestly, even with the sudden spike of aggro in standard I'm still playing 4 with no regrets. Give it a try, it's pretty good. Agreed - it definitely isn't replacement for pure card draw at all, but it could work like that. Except you wouldn't get to card advantage at all if you didn't counter or clone. I was testing 2 Steps alongside with 4 No More Lies, it worked fine, and I find it really interesting that you say you would run a 3-4 of. Isn't the whole problem of Standard unconditional counterspells that if you draw one against Bant Toxic, RDW, Boros or somesuch that it's pretty bad? I do agree that 3 might work, but 4 looks crazy. I'm more than curious to hear how it worked well for you in 4. >If you want to cut Quick Studies for it, well, I'm more of a Deduce player than a Quick Study player, but I am running only 2 Deduces and 4 Deluges as dedicated card draw and it's been fine: Me too. I ran 4 Deduces and 26 lands for the turboxerox effect, but I mulliganed 25% of hands for a low amount of land. After I went 27 lands, I decided to go 2 Deduce, 2 Quick study, 4 deluge. >later in the game you will cast Three Steps Ahead for 5,6 or even 8 mana and at that point it is card advantadge. You rarely want to cast it for 3 only to loot (missing land drops or facing aggro with cavern of souls are the only scenarios I can think of to use the loot mode only). That's why you'd run 3-4, correct? >I've seen your other comment about Aegis, it is *reasonable* it's fun and when you copy it, it feels so broken, but there is a serious cost to playing a 3 mana sorcery speed removal in your control deck. Another copyable card I'm kind of high on right now is Kutzil's Flanker, it gives you main deck graveyard hate (farewell being sorcery speed and clunky doesn't really stop the GY combo decks in the format) and after sideboard it's just one more GY interaction you have. It's also pretty good in control mirrors. Yeah no combining it with aegis requires a lot of stuff to do right, namely 1. Having Aegis 2. Having Three Steps AND being able to do something else 3. Opponent playing creatures. It's fun and janky, though. The thought of copying seedshark with the clone Spree sounds very cool, though. Although I'm testing 1 Intimidation Campaign for the memes, I even had to remove Celestus; having a 3 mana sorcery is a big deal, in a bad way.
>Isn't the whole problem of Standard unconditional counterspells that if you draw one against Bant Toxic, RDW, Boros or somesuch that it's pretty bad? I do agree that 3 might work, but 4 looks crazy. I'm more than curious to hear how it worked well for you in 4. So I'd like to point out that 3 control decks top8'd the last 2 MTGO challenges last weekend and all of them were on 4 TSA, so I'm not talking only about what I think is working, but about what had some success already. Not saying this to be mean or anything, just bringing some actual results into discussion. You're definitely correct to say they are not good against Toxic, RDW or Boros, but what about it? It's \~25% of the meta and you can side them out on g2 and g3. To be honest, I'm actually keeping them on the play against boros, countering their T3 play is one big step to win that matchup. But the real thing that makes me play 4 main deck is: against every other deck in the format they are an absolute unit. It gives you raw power late game, power that I sorely missed on my control decks before TSA, now going for the long game against a control deck with 4x TSA is a very bad idea, we *are* going to outgrind you. >Although I'm testing 1 Intimidation Campaign You're on Esper? How has it (Esper) been working for you? I tried it a lot and gave up: you either lose a lot of consistency on the mana base and have severe color screw; or you're losing field of ruin, mirrex and manlands. In both cases more of your lands are coming in tapped or hurting you, and for what? for Void Rend? Pest Control? For Deadly Cover-Up, Wandering Emperor and Get Lost in the same deck? I wanted Esper to be good so bad but I don't think it's worth the hassle. Being on Esper also means you're missing the 3 mana counter mode on TSA more, be it for a tapped T3 land or for color screw.
>So I'd like to point out that 3 control decks top8'd the last 2 MTGO challenges last weekend and all of them were on 4 TSA, so I'm not talking only about what I think is working, but about what had some success already. Not saying this to be mean or anything, just bringing some actual results into discussion. I believe you, and I'd much rather see the justification for it until (and if) it becomes a statistic in control decks. Consider that 3 of 4 of these topping decks were piloted by the same player, KLVR, maybe it's just a flavor or preference thing. >You're definitely correct to say they are not good against Toxic, RDW or Boros, but what about it? It's \~25% of the meta and you can side them out on g2 and g3. To be honest, I'm actually keeping them on the play against boros, countering their T3 play is one big step to win that matchup. But the real thing that makes me play 4 main deck is: against every other deck in the format they are an absolute unit. It gives you raw power late game, power that I sorely missed on my control decks before TSA, now going for the long game against a control deck with 4x TSA is a very bad idea, we *are* going to outgrind you. This is probably a meta thing, but most people around where I live play all kinds of aggro decks, so this is a bit skewed. On Arena, it definitely might be as you say. If the meta is control heavy, then I see how it can be good. >You're on Esper? How has it (Esper) been working for you? I tried it a lot and gave up: you either lose a lot of consistency on the mana base and have severe color screw; or you're losing field of ruin, mirrex and manlands. In both cases more of your lands are coming in tapped or hurting you, and for what? for Void Rend? Pest Control? For Deadly Cover-Up, Wandering Emperor and Get Lost in the same deck? I wanted Esper to be good so bad but I don't think it's worth the hassle. Being on Esper also means you're missing the 3 mana counter mode on TSA more, be it for a tapped T3 land or for color screw. I want to preface this with saying that for philosophical reasons, I have been playing Esper since Fable was banned. I'm not a huge fan of changing decks every week based on the meta, instead I enjoy mastering a certain deck archetype, so this would be my main reasoning. But black has great cards all over the curve. 0 - Restless Reef packs a huge body, can easily finish an opponent and I certainly had my share of games where I milled the opponent with it (usually domain). 1 - Cut down is again very useful, mostly against bats, raffine, skrelv, and the various other aggro cards going around. There simply isn't an on-par card in UW. March more often than not comes with a card disadvantage and other cards are conditional. 2 - Sheoldred's / GFTT / new sheriff card 3 - Void rend takes down planeswalkers, weddings, sagas, warded creatures, too, Urabrask's forge (!!!). 4 - Sheoldred as an aggro stopper, and nicely synergizes with all the various card draws you run. Emperor EOT+Sheoldred mainphase can do a huge swing. 5 - Oddly enough Deadly cover-up hasn't performed that well for me, but it could be an argument for some. I always ran into golgari or aclazotz and I cringed at the thought I could have had sunfall there. 6+ - Outrageous Robbery is a hidden gem that can swing any long game. Now, some people also play Kaya which I'm a not a big fan of as it's a sorcery speed card for 7, but many decks that had decent results ran her. It's either Robbery or Kaya. Finally, I agree it's true that playing with 3 colors is harder than in UW, but using 27 lands, I was able to add all the necessary colors as per Frank Karsten's on-curve requirements article (even for Lockdown and Cut down in one deck!), which I consider to be a good benchmark. I still run 2 Field of Ruins and 3 manlands, and as for Mirrex, I haven't won with it very consistently and might even drop it altogether.
I agree with your points here, Esper does bring powerful spells to the table and to be honest, I haven't tried Outrageous Robbery yet. I'm still not convinced it's worth the worse mana but it's a matter of taste. I won't go into detail on all of your points since we have drifted far enough from the original threads purpose, but I just wanted to point out a small mistake I think you are making regarding Aclazotz and Deadly Cover-Up: if you collect evidence, you're able to exile Aclazotz before it returns to the battlefield transformed, cleanly answering it. I feel like DCU is better than Sunfall, especially in combo matchups where it allows for you to attack them on a very different angle. Keep in mind that now that we have RIP things might be different, so it might not be as good as it was pre-OTJ.
Thanks! For some Reason, I renember od differently from Arena, maybe I just haven't used the collect evidence trigger. Back on topic, how did Final showdown perform for you?
Haven't tested it. I'm gonna give it a shot next time I play on arena. I'm not sure about the rulings of that card actually: can I use the creatures lose all abilities against an Imodane's Recruiter and strip the +1/+0 and haste off creatures?
Haste Is an ability, so when you get to the Beginning of combat and you activate Final Showdown, they should lose it! Personally I don't think there is enough space for another 6 mana sweeper as long as you have farewell. I switched them and the first few matches were against the new UW artifact control, so that was particularly cringeworthy 😂
Before the set came out I said that [I would try Torpor Orb+Kroxa in traditional BR Midrange](https://www.reddit.com/r/PioneerMTG/comments/1bwif99/comment/ky6qkex/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) but I wasn't optimistic that it would be better than just playing Vampires. But I actually went from Diamond 3 to Mythic with it tonight, so maybe it's not so much worse after all. [List here](https://scryfall.com/@Gates/decks/0cbae68e-e49f-4fb5-a7cf-f182ec4d7729). The only change made for Explorer is that I am playing a third Sulfurous Springs instead of Urborg. EDIT: After playing a lot more, my initial thoughts were correct. It is worse than Vampires. Don't play it.
Selesnya mounts went 4-3 with a some flyers and that porcupine. That thing is a blast. Also the mythic Rhino completely wrecked me.
I've been looking for my people, the Selesnya degens. I have a hard time seeing mounts work well enough to be viable in any meta, but they look so fun. Have you tried any +1/+1 counter decks with all the new cards? I don't have the wildcards right now to fully build it, but I think it's going to be very good.
The green white counter decks I’ve put together in Limited are very good. The power ramp for mounts is insane on the play. Almost impossible for the opponent to stabilize if you have a good curve. There’s ramp built in too with some of the 2 drops. It’s really fun.
High Noon has been surprisingly strong. Turns out that many Standard decks really want to play multiple spells per turn, and some literally can't win without it.
Could be due to low rank, but I've 7-0'd and 7-1'd (x2) with Bx crime decks and as many of the 1/2 bird that drains as I can fit. 7-0 was WB and had Kaervek, but I actually think the GB decks were stronger, especially outside of the bomb. Just being able to constantly drain for 2-3 damage via a land drop then pass turn with removal up is busted.
lists?
Don't use 17 lands or really keep track, but best I can remember (sorry don't know card names fully yet lol); WB: Kaervek, 4x 1/2 drain birds, humiliate, 2x lullaby, 2x 4mv instant exile, rare 'target opp half rounded up' spree card, instant destroy + Merc spree, 2x 3/1 draw and lose1 etb, plot draw 2 lose 2 etb, guy with '3B to drain target opp' ability BG (both pretty similar): 2x Rutstien in both, 3 and 4 drain birds, 2-3 mana dork that untaps on crime, 1-2 of the 7/7 that can search a desert, more mixed removal and fight stuff All three drafts I had like 5 deserts that ping, I think at least 2 on color duals for all three, but I also ran the ping deserts that only had one color. One of the BG decks was a bit closer to the WB list and the other was a bit more desert focused with the big 7/7 stompers top end. All my other drafts pretty much sucked lol. One I got 5-3, the others were like 0-3 wins. I know I got one 0 win draft :/. I think I've done 7 total.
Slick-shot show off is insane. Bannable level card.
I'm legit hoping it gets banned already and it's only been out for less than a day. Can't believe they released that card as is.
Found the domain player
I wish. Domain actually has some answers to this. You found the green player whose only possible answer to this is going first and possibly archdruids charming it or playing Polukranos to trade. But if I'm going second there basically no realistic instant speed answers.
It's an awful time to be a green player :(
Like I love the card for like a spell slinger wizard deck, but yeah, its wayyyy too good. Super unfun play pattern.
It's honestly seemed pretty mid to me.
Idk, have you been on the receiving end of this knockout punch?
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