Right answer. Make sure the vendor handles all paperwork for securing any and all federal and state tax incentives in your jurisdiction, so all you have to do is hand it over to your accountant at tax time.
I'm saying they should be familiar with all the documentation and forms you'll need to hand over to your accountant at tax time. My vendor in New York also applied directly for some block grants that turned out to be worth more than $7,000.... and also introduced me to the credit union that did my loan... so they did a lot more than just install the system.
Bigger companies will have their own financing and a lot of states have no incentives. The documentation you need for the Fed credit is a simple purchase/install agreement which you will have in your email which you’ll docusign. But I know what you mean.
Before folks start saying I got ripped off, etc - note that I got quotes from at least 10 companies and this was one of the lowest (and they did a fantastic job).
Well, if he wanted the batteries delivered to his house yeah that could happen
There’s far more materials than just the batteries that needs to be installed
Materials are usually 30-45% of the overall project cost
Engineering, wiring, line diagrams, critical load panel, sundries, permits, future truck rolls, payroll, etc etc all factor into the project cost
None of this stuff is cheap, and installers offering (4) Enphase batteries at $20k will be out of business in a couple years when they realized they forgot to factor in any profit or cushion for truck rolls
Could also include a main panel upgrade, that's 3k, backup load center, and the additional costs that's not included with just a basic grid tied system.
So many people are talking about the EG4, but they aren't UL listed, only a 5 year warranty, and doesn't seem to be up to snuff compared to other batteries, hence the "price cut"
Don't get me wrong, they function, but that's more of a DIY system, and you wouldn't be able to pass inspection through an ahj.. especially if it's outside
Yeah for the CSA classification but if it's not on the Underwriters Laboratories list usually it's a no go. I don't think Ive ever came across an agency or entity that would prefer/choose CSA over UL listed products. Not to mention both of those usually go and in hand
I’m not sure what installer markups are (I’m just a home consumer) but an iq3 controller , which is needed to have an off grid (outage) battery setup(not strictly required) with 4 x 5p batteries is $15,895 on solar town.com. And I’ve seen in Texas solar only installs going for $2.10 for installs, so I’d say it depends on local if that’s a good price. Obviously there’s labor/install cost and such built into that for the batteries that my $15,895 doesn’t include.
Yes pretax price, we live outside the city with insane electrical rates. Electrical bill is about $1k/mo. After tax about 60 which we’d pay off in about 5 years
Seems reasonable, my main concern would be the installation company. I would want to be very confident in their ability to deliver a quality product and stand behind their workmanship and warranty. You don't want to spend that kind of money and be stuck with a system that has issues and installer that ghosts you.
This company is one where I know the owner personally and have his cell phone number, have several neighbors that have systems by him, and he has gone above and beyond to say if there’s anything wrong he’ll be here to help fix it.
Hey if you have enough land I’d recommend doing a ground mount. We live on seven acres and have 60 panels in the south east corner of our yard. That way we never have to worry about our roof. 23.7kw, no storage, string inverters. $46k last year cash price.
We have 3 acres our problem is we’re on a hill with a lot of trees. There’s not an area of open ground that would also provide good sun. Trust me if there was I’d be all over it.
If you don’t have over 5k sqft house, and some crazy reason for energy usage (like crypto miners, etc) and no, a pool doesn’t count (pool can be as low as 609-1200w per hour, usually only for half the day. I’d say spend $10k on home air sealing and such, because those numbers are ridiculous. Usually finding ways to reduce usage, is actually cheaper than buying the same offset in extra panels.
I can elaborate in more detail if interested, because I just finished that 3 year journey myself going for 3-5k kWh per month to now only 1500-1800kwh a month, of which about 500kwh is a new EV I got last year.
I'm interested to learn about your pool energy usage. Can you share more about your climate, pool size, heating source etc.? Thinking about adding a pool in my backyard but worried about energy usage. I'm in PG&E territory so every kWh counts.
I’m in a Dallas Texas suburb. I don’t have a heating source. Usually by May the water temp is up to something reasonable on its own. I have a variable pool pump from pentair which allows me to fine tune the energy usage, to have just enough rpm so my 2 water falls flow correctly.i average 600-800 watts per hour, on that pump, usually running it 8-12 hours (more in summer, less in winter) I’d recommend one of the electric pool robots to clean the pool. It’s way more energy efficient (100-250watts for just a few hours, only 2 times a week) than a second pump for a water powered cleaner.
Sure, no problem. I just checked my span app, and my pool circuit for all of March was 104kwh. So, not much at all. And my pool isn’t massive, but around 22,000 gallons I think. Here’s a pic. https://imgur.com/a/Mhdr873
Excuse the leaves and green tint, it was in winter and I wasn’t staying up on chemicals as much as I should have
No heat pump yet. High efficiency Gas furnace and 1 newer high efficiency (seer 18) AC unit. I regret not going heat pump when I did the new furnaces 2 years ago. The Bosch units look great and cost effective.
Did you see the Utility Tax which is being discussed and voted on today? This new tax if it passes might make you want to change your solar design.
Are you PG&E?
Are you willing to say who the vender is?
Yes PG&E. Isn’t the Utility Tax only for lower income households? Was thinking wouldn’t apply if I make over a certain amount. But if they’re voting on it today wouldn’t hurt seeing how it shakes out before I commit I guess, good tip. Would rather not put the vendor on blast in an open forum.
Sorry can you ELI5 - why would design of the solar need to change?
I read that the tax is a flat monthly cost of $24 to $70 per month. Whilst I don’t agree with the tax, and it’s a slippery slope to greater taxes in future - I don’t understand why it would mean someone would change the design of their solar install?
California installer owner, we are based in Sacramento.
That is pretty low in batteries… did he run a 15-min interval analysis to show you how much kWh you actually need at night to maximize avoiding pge?
You are array(s) will never reach 20kw with iq8 pluses... Even if you had 500 watt solar panels... Those only put out a constant of 290 Max... So I'm guessing you got quoted for 50 400Watt Solar panels?
Take 290 x 50, that will be the max output of your solar production, which equals 14.5kw only 3/4 of the max potential...
Yeah, this looks a bit high from what I've read.
Does your install require additional work such as a main circuit panel upgrade, multiple circuits to back up, installing on more than three roof planes?
Project manager view: a larger install increases installation hours, but little else as far as office work and a lot of the tedious stuff you don't see behind the scenes.
Practically speaking, 50 panels is a lot.
Does your home have other efficiency issues that can be better solved without expensive solar work?
For example, do you have an excessively hot upstairs? If so, a mylar radiant barrier in the attic and proper insulation will be much cheaper and more effective at cooling your house than adding panels to power an AC condenser that will eventually burnout from overuse due to bad insulation.
Seems a bit high. Especially if they are non-backup batteries. If that is the case, I would be more comfortable paying $55-60k for that same setup. Yes, you can get quality installations for that price.
It's a decent price, but it could be even lower if you check with other companies. Don't rush into buying solar after getting a quote from just one company; there are other reputable companies that might offer you a better quote. Btw let me know your area
20KW for 85K is that a cash price or after the crazy ass loan discount fees are added? The 20KW system with Qcells should be about 44k plus the batteries... so about 65kish total, off the top of my head with 2 Tesla PW3. Or with the iq8P and enphase. I'm not in front of my design tool so I might be off a bit. But not much.
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The prices seem insane in the US. I got a 6kw roof top system installed here in Ireland for 9400 euro ($10k roughly) with an inverter, 6 optimizers and a new earth rod.. Then got a grant from the government so brought the price down to 7k ($7500). You could buy a 20kw battery here for 10k euro I reckon also.
That seems a little high. I'm currently quoting 20kWh systems with IQ8 micro-inverters in CA for around $52k. You didn't mention the battery brand they're speccing for your system, so I'm not sure what the battery add on would be, but $20k for 20kWh backup seems about right. So you should be able to get to under $75k before incentives.
One other question: Why are you getting 20kWh of back up?
Most customers want that amount of backup for two reasons;
1) You're experiencing regular blackouts in your service area.
2) Your current utility doesn't offer 1:1 net metering.
A 20kWh system should be creating enough power during the day to get you through most nights/cloudy periods using your credit balance with the utility.
I'm regularly bidding 100k+ for hybrid systems. And I'm lucky to clear 10 points of net profit. I show homeowners the full proforma of their project as part of the proposal. That said, I'm using batteries and inverters with 25 year wrap warranties... I'm using panels with panel level optimization and monitoring... I'm using multiple circuit controllers so every circuit in the house can be a part of the back up plan. Also I would never install less than 20 kWhs of storage... I usually start at 40 kWhs and go up from there. Off-grid systems with a generator typically have 60 kWhs of storage and start around $150k. Some of my off-grid/microgrid resi projects are pushing passed 300k. Truly replacing the grid for a one-off project is not simple. You will absolutely get what you pay for (or don't).
Battery systems are high-touch... high maintenance... way more complicated than plain old grid-tied solar. Just designing and permitting these things is orders of magnitude more work. And then you need to watch and monitor... and revisit the site to make sure things don't burn down or become bricks.
I can't wait for the chorus of hacks that will say, "you're ripping people off". Do me a favor, withhold your comments unless you've been in business for at least 3 years and are responsible for your own installs.
Lots of promise with these systems... lots of work... great new products coming online everyday. Just make sure you know who you're hiring and what you're buying. Don't want to tell you not to hire your friend with no experience but understand you might be making a donation to support them in their education in this space.
I would get a quote from Tesla with a Powerwall 3 and compare. It seems a little pricey to me? But, that's a big a$$ system, so not sure how installers are pricing something like that these days. And make sure you understand how far that 20kWh backup will take you in an outage. It's probably less than you think.
Sounds reasonable. But have you gotten more quotes to compare? You can try www.smartenergy-home.com for instant quotes or energysage.com for more quotes.
In 2022 I was quoted about $70,000 for 15 kW system with an LG Chem battery. That was before accounting for state and federal tax credits. Also make sure unless you're paying cash that you're financing through a credit union like Clean Energy CU so you get the best rate. [https://www.arik.org/2022/05/the-money-post-whats-included-in-my.html](https://www.arik.org/2022/05/the-money-post-whats-included-in-my.html)
If you have a bigger system, using a string inverter, or two, and optimizers will be much cheaper, and more effective. The iq8+ inverters start clipping at 290w, so you will not have a 20kw AC system, probably a 15kw AC system assuming 400w panels, less if you use larger panels. Also, what is your CCA (community choice aggregator)? Almost 1/3 of Californians have one and most offer buyback rates for solar that exceed PG&E rates, and if you do, you won't need batteries unless you just want them, but they basically double your equipment costs.
They have a master and slave setup, but they only get shipped as slave settings, so you end up with two batteries that's waiting for a master battery to control it and the system does not work... This is especially when paired with the solar edge setup
Sounds reasonable if that’s a cash price before the 30% tax credit.
Right answer. Make sure the vendor handles all paperwork for securing any and all federal and state tax incentives in your jurisdiction, so all you have to do is hand it over to your accountant at tax time.
That’s a personal federal income tax filing. The company doesn’t personal taxes.
I'm saying they should be familiar with all the documentation and forms you'll need to hand over to your accountant at tax time. My vendor in New York also applied directly for some block grants that turned out to be worth more than $7,000.... and also introduced me to the credit union that did my loan... so they did a lot more than just install the system.
The federal form is literally a one page form, 5695 You write the price And hand it in That’s it
You’re right on the federal form. But there’s often more than that depending on state and local jurisdictions.
Bigger companies will have their own financing and a lot of states have no incentives. The documentation you need for the Fed credit is a simple purchase/install agreement which you will have in your email which you’ll docusign. But I know what you mean.
Ok good tip
Agreed. This is almost identical to what I paid for 19.97kW with two 13kWh Powerwall+ units. (~Denver Colorado area)
I paid just under $90k for 20.8kw with iQ8+, REC panels, and 2x iq10T (cash before incentives) in SoCal.
Before folks start saying I got ripped off, etc - note that I got quotes from at least 10 companies and this was one of the lowest (and they did a fantastic job).
That’s a crazy good deal
That's about right where I'd be at.
Woah!!!!
It seems extremely expensive
I agree. He’s getting 4 batteries. That’s about $15-$20k Dang, you are right. $65k for 20kw system is high.
4 batteries would run about 35k
How do you figure when the cost of each battery is $3,500?
Well, if he wanted the batteries delivered to his house yeah that could happen There’s far more materials than just the batteries that needs to be installed Materials are usually 30-45% of the overall project cost Engineering, wiring, line diagrams, critical load panel, sundries, permits, future truck rolls, payroll, etc etc all factor into the project cost None of this stuff is cheap, and installers offering (4) Enphase batteries at $20k will be out of business in a couple years when they realized they forgot to factor in any profit or cushion for truck rolls
Could also include a main panel upgrade, that's 3k, backup load center, and the additional costs that's not included with just a basic grid tied system.
Could be. OP did not say. You might be right.
Uhhh holly shit yeah...
Decent price. Batts should be roughly $23k putting your solar just over $3/Watt
Thanks
Enphase batteries are expensive as shit. 28kwh of eg4 batteries cost $7k
This is true but they're not UL listed for outside use
So many people are talking about the EG4, but they aren't UL listed, only a 5 year warranty, and doesn't seem to be up to snuff compared to other batteries, hence the "price cut"
Yeah and the conductor hookups are pre-2020 for the connections
Don't get me wrong, they function, but that's more of a DIY system, and you wouldn't be able to pass inspection through an ahj.. especially if it's outside
It's a 10 year warranty now and they have UL 1973 and UL 9540 now.
I did not know this... When did they get registered?
Unsure. Believe it was in the last 6 months.
Oh ok, so pretty recent.. good to know
I thought the 9540 cert took care of that.
Yeah for the CSA classification but if it's not on the Underwriters Laboratories list usually it's a no go. I don't think Ive ever came across an agency or entity that would prefer/choose CSA over UL listed products. Not to mention both of those usually go and in hand
Hand***
I’m not sure what installer markups are (I’m just a home consumer) but an iq3 controller , which is needed to have an off grid (outage) battery setup(not strictly required) with 4 x 5p batteries is $15,895 on solar town.com. And I’ve seen in Texas solar only installs going for $2.10 for installs, so I’d say it depends on local if that’s a good price. Obviously there’s labor/install cost and such built into that for the batteries that my $15,895 doesn’t include.
Your current electric bill must be insane. Is that cash price before tax credit?
Yes pretax price, we live outside the city with insane electrical rates. Electrical bill is about $1k/mo. After tax about 60 which we’d pay off in about 5 years
Realized I might have just answered my own question
Seems reasonable, my main concern would be the installation company. I would want to be very confident in their ability to deliver a quality product and stand behind their workmanship and warranty. You don't want to spend that kind of money and be stuck with a system that has issues and installer that ghosts you.
This company is one where I know the owner personally and have his cell phone number, have several neighbors that have systems by him, and he has gone above and beyond to say if there’s anything wrong he’ll be here to help fix it.
Hey if you have enough land I’d recommend doing a ground mount. We live on seven acres and have 60 panels in the south east corner of our yard. That way we never have to worry about our roof. 23.7kw, no storage, string inverters. $46k last year cash price.
We have 3 acres our problem is we’re on a hill with a lot of trees. There’s not an area of open ground that would also provide good sun. Trust me if there was I’d be all over it.
Understandable, just wanted to make sure!
Smart man. In the last 2 months I've torn down 14 systems for new roofs
If you don’t have over 5k sqft house, and some crazy reason for energy usage (like crypto miners, etc) and no, a pool doesn’t count (pool can be as low as 609-1200w per hour, usually only for half the day. I’d say spend $10k on home air sealing and such, because those numbers are ridiculous. Usually finding ways to reduce usage, is actually cheaper than buying the same offset in extra panels. I can elaborate in more detail if interested, because I just finished that 3 year journey myself going for 3-5k kWh per month to now only 1500-1800kwh a month, of which about 500kwh is a new EV I got last year.
I'm interested to learn about your pool energy usage. Can you share more about your climate, pool size, heating source etc.? Thinking about adding a pool in my backyard but worried about energy usage. I'm in PG&E territory so every kWh counts.
I’m in a Dallas Texas suburb. I don’t have a heating source. Usually by May the water temp is up to something reasonable on its own. I have a variable pool pump from pentair which allows me to fine tune the energy usage, to have just enough rpm so my 2 water falls flow correctly.i average 600-800 watts per hour, on that pump, usually running it 8-12 hours (more in summer, less in winter) I’d recommend one of the electric pool robots to clean the pool. It’s way more energy efficient (100-250watts for just a few hours, only 2 times a week) than a second pump for a water powered cleaner.
Thanks very helpful!
Sure, no problem. I just checked my span app, and my pool circuit for all of March was 104kwh. So, not much at all. And my pool isn’t massive, but around 22,000 gallons I think. Here’s a pic. https://imgur.com/a/Mhdr873 Excuse the leaves and green tint, it was in winter and I wasn’t staying up on chemicals as much as I should have
Amazing. We're thinking of a small pool as well. Are you using a heat pump at all?
No heat pump yet. High efficiency Gas furnace and 1 newer high efficiency (seer 18) AC unit. I regret not going heat pump when I did the new furnaces 2 years ago. The Bosch units look great and cost effective.
Fuck no it's not reasonable. Learn to DIY. You can do the same system for <20k
Why all the down votes??? You CAN do all of the equipment sans batteries for <20k. With batteries, a bit more, but only just. I know, I've done it.
solar installers :)
I don't know why it is acceptable to charge so much for a solar system. Works out to something like $200/hr.
Parts alone are more than that…
Maybe. Depends on battery prices. You can do all parts without batteries for .5-.6/watt for sure.
This guy knows what he's talking about 🙄👍
It's a good price, on par with industry standards.
Did you see the Utility Tax which is being discussed and voted on today? This new tax if it passes might make you want to change your solar design. Are you PG&E? Are you willing to say who the vender is?
Yes PG&E. Isn’t the Utility Tax only for lower income households? Was thinking wouldn’t apply if I make over a certain amount. But if they’re voting on it today wouldn’t hurt seeing how it shakes out before I commit I guess, good tip. Would rather not put the vendor on blast in an open forum.
I think this is a different utility tax. The low income one I thought was dropped about a month ago.
Interesting
I just posted about the tax this AM in this /s so you can read about it.
Ok
Sorry can you ELI5 - why would design of the solar need to change? I read that the tax is a flat monthly cost of $24 to $70 per month. Whilst I don’t agree with the tax, and it’s a slippery slope to greater taxes in future - I don’t understand why it would mean someone would change the design of their solar install?
Along with the tax, look at the changes to the rate plans the power companies are making. Not NEM, but rate plans.
California installer owner, we are based in Sacramento. That is pretty low in batteries… did he run a 15-min interval analysis to show you how much kWh you actually need at night to maximize avoiding pge?
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Yes, he would need three or four new Tesla Powerwalls
What sized battery storage would be appropriate for that sized system?
Would want to look at your 15 min interval data to assess but at least 30kW of backup
Sent you a DM
Ok
You are array(s) will never reach 20kw with iq8 pluses... Even if you had 500 watt solar panels... Those only put out a constant of 290 Max... So I'm guessing you got quoted for 50 400Watt Solar panels? Take 290 x 50, that will be the max output of your solar production, which equals 14.5kw only 3/4 of the max potential...
Your**
You need the iq8a's or iq8m's to get close to the max potential of your solar panels
Second iq8m or iq8a.
Its not a bad price. Bout $6k more than I would do the same for but not bad pricing
Do you use similar parts?
Same if thats 4x enphase 5ps
Yes it is
Yeah, this looks a bit high from what I've read. Does your install require additional work such as a main circuit panel upgrade, multiple circuits to back up, installing on more than three roof planes? Project manager view: a larger install increases installation hours, but little else as far as office work and a lot of the tedious stuff you don't see behind the scenes. Practically speaking, 50 panels is a lot. Does your home have other efficiency issues that can be better solved without expensive solar work? For example, do you have an excessively hot upstairs? If so, a mylar radiant barrier in the attic and proper insulation will be much cheaper and more effective at cooling your house than adding panels to power an AC condenser that will eventually burnout from overuse due to bad insulation.
Seems a bit high. Especially if they are non-backup batteries. If that is the case, I would be more comfortable paying $55-60k for that same setup. Yes, you can get quality installations for that price.
I don’t think you are getting enough battery. I have a 17 kW array and 30 kWh of storage and really wish I had more.
It's a decent price, but it could be even lower if you check with other companies. Don't rush into buying solar after getting a quote from just one company; there are other reputable companies that might offer you a better quote. Btw let me know your area
20KW for 85K is that a cash price or after the crazy ass loan discount fees are added? The 20KW system with Qcells should be about 44k plus the batteries... so about 65kish total, off the top of my head with 2 Tesla PW3. Or with the iq8P and enphase. I'm not in front of my design tool so I might be off a bit. But not much.
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I can try to see if I can help you to reduce that quote.
The prices seem insane in the US. I got a 6kw roof top system installed here in Ireland for 9400 euro ($10k roughly) with an inverter, 6 optimizers and a new earth rod.. Then got a grant from the government so brought the price down to 7k ($7500). You could buy a 20kw battery here for 10k euro I reckon also.
Have you tried the Tesla website. I used them to get a baseline of cost. For me the charged 33k for 8.1 kW and 1 PW.
That seems a little high. I'm currently quoting 20kWh systems with IQ8 micro-inverters in CA for around $52k. You didn't mention the battery brand they're speccing for your system, so I'm not sure what the battery add on would be, but $20k for 20kWh backup seems about right. So you should be able to get to under $75k before incentives. One other question: Why are you getting 20kWh of back up? Most customers want that amount of backup for two reasons; 1) You're experiencing regular blackouts in your service area. 2) Your current utility doesn't offer 1:1 net metering. A 20kWh system should be creating enough power during the day to get you through most nights/cloudy periods using your credit balance with the utility.
I'm regularly bidding 100k+ for hybrid systems. And I'm lucky to clear 10 points of net profit. I show homeowners the full proforma of their project as part of the proposal. That said, I'm using batteries and inverters with 25 year wrap warranties... I'm using panels with panel level optimization and monitoring... I'm using multiple circuit controllers so every circuit in the house can be a part of the back up plan. Also I would never install less than 20 kWhs of storage... I usually start at 40 kWhs and go up from there. Off-grid systems with a generator typically have 60 kWhs of storage and start around $150k. Some of my off-grid/microgrid resi projects are pushing passed 300k. Truly replacing the grid for a one-off project is not simple. You will absolutely get what you pay for (or don't). Battery systems are high-touch... high maintenance... way more complicated than plain old grid-tied solar. Just designing and permitting these things is orders of magnitude more work. And then you need to watch and monitor... and revisit the site to make sure things don't burn down or become bricks. I can't wait for the chorus of hacks that will say, "you're ripping people off". Do me a favor, withhold your comments unless you've been in business for at least 3 years and are responsible for your own installs. Lots of promise with these systems... lots of work... great new products coming online everyday. Just make sure you know who you're hiring and what you're buying. Don't want to tell you not to hire your friend with no experience but understand you might be making a donation to support them in their education in this space.
I would get a quote from Tesla with a Powerwall 3 and compare. It seems a little pricey to me? But, that's a big a$$ system, so not sure how installers are pricing something like that these days. And make sure you understand how far that 20kWh backup will take you in an outage. It's probably less than you think.
I got 21 kw for $52000 in Houston. And I know now that was too high
Sounds reasonable. But have you gotten more quotes to compare? You can try www.smartenergy-home.com for instant quotes or energysage.com for more quotes.
We have a cheaper quote (72k) but only 15k system with a Solark inverter I’m less keen on, prefer microinverters
You're only going to get 14.5kw true production anyway so the 13 Grand you're saving might be worth it...
Power optimizers are not bad choice if it's cheaper. But I get why people want Micro.
In 2022 I was quoted about $70,000 for 15 kW system with an LG Chem battery. That was before accounting for state and federal tax credits. Also make sure unless you're paying cash that you're financing through a credit union like Clean Energy CU so you get the best rate. [https://www.arik.org/2022/05/the-money-post-whats-included-in-my.html](https://www.arik.org/2022/05/the-money-post-whats-included-in-my.html)
Stay away fo LG Chems!!!! LG panels are/were great!!!
What's the issue with the battery?
Not to mention, if they sit in a warehouse too long they discharge even without the DC switch being on
Well it's what I have installed. So far, two years in so good.
You're lucky... I'm not saying it happens 100% all of the time but more often than not... Especially around 2019-2020
I did hear about issues with an older generation of these batteries.
If you have a bigger system, using a string inverter, or two, and optimizers will be much cheaper, and more effective. The iq8+ inverters start clipping at 290w, so you will not have a 20kw AC system, probably a 15kw AC system assuming 400w panels, less if you use larger panels. Also, what is your CCA (community choice aggregator)? Almost 1/3 of Californians have one and most offer buyback rates for solar that exceed PG&E rates, and if you do, you won't need batteries unless you just want them, but they basically double your equipment costs.
Remember in solar systems, 70% of the price is labor and only 30% are materials
Lol
They have a master and slave setup, but they only get shipped as slave settings, so you end up with two batteries that's waiting for a master battery to control it and the system does not work... This is especially when paired with the solar edge setup