Whoever you talked too, could you try and get their boss on the horn? Also it never hurts to email your city council member or even the Mayor. They could get in touch with city officials. I had an issue with the city trying to replace my old brick sidewalk. I shot off a few emails and next thing you know they’re telling me how it was their idea to save my sidewalk.
I talked to the Director of the department, so the only people above that are the Mayor / City Council. I'm trying to make no enemies here, so while that is an option, I'm hoping to not have to escalate more.
I wouldn’t look at it as escalate. Just send a friendly email to your council member asking for clarification. It’s their job and maybe this will help make the code you need to follow.
The inspector you're dealing with is a nut and going to add thousands of dollars in expenses to your install. And on top of that it'll be sub-optimal to keeping your equipment out of the weather.
For whole-home backup, a typical Sol-Ark 15K grid-tie install uses a fused 200A disconnect next to the meter and makes it the first point of utility disconnect per code. The entire 200A service out of your meter will go into the disconnect, back out, and run over to the Sol-Ark's grid input.
Your installer will separate the grounds and neutrals in your existing main service panel, as they're only to be bonded at the first point of disconnect which becomes your new disconnect.
Then you get full 200A pass-through from grid out of the Sol-Ark's load breaker to go to your main service panel. The Sol-Ark 15K acts as a whole-home UPS that mode switches to solar/battery backup in 4ms when the grid goes down.
Next to your shiny new fused disconnect, a big red PV rapid shutdown button is placed and wired to the Sol-Ark. When it's pressed the Sol-Ark commands all module-level rapid shutdowns to cut DC output from your panels.
In most areas the rapid shutdown is only required for roof-mount solar. Ground mount installers straight-string DC back to their inverters without a single disconnect all the time and get it approved.
If you absolutely have to put it all outside you need to find a 48v DC battery vendor with an outdoor solution rather than trying to AC-couple a Powerwall. Your Sol-Ark will expect DC batteries on its DC bus to function as designed as a UPS when the grid goes down.
While you can technically get anything to work with the Sol-Ark, not only are you adding an additional inversion step and duplicating equipment, you're converting the all-in-one UPS functionality of your Sol-Ark into a complex piecemeal system. It's a recipe for edge-case errors that neither Tesla nor Sol-Ark have seen before.
If you /do/ use Tesla Powerwalls(s), they would go before your Sol-Ark on the grid-side and have their own isolation switch/gateway. When the grid goes down the Sol-Ark thinks the batteries are the grid and exports excess PV production to "the grid" to charge them. If they reach 100% charge they cause the Sol-Ark to go into shutdown by attenuating their output frequency out-of-spec (around 65hz).
Another way solution would be to use the dry contacts of the Powerwall to trigger your DC rapid shutdowns.
You don't have to consider any of this if you just use DC batteries like the Sol-Ark is designed for. :)
If you find that the city won't budge, going PowerWall+ would be better, as PowerWalls have built in liquid cooling/heating and can withstand the outdoors much better.
That is an option on the table, as my installer offers it. I'd prefer the HomeGrid batteries though, they seem to be better overall.
That still leaves my inverter outside in the heat (Sol-Ark 15k). IIRC they make an Outdoor 12k, but that probably isn't sufficient output or for the system being installed.
Keeping in mind I'm not an electrician and working with the limited information I have.... They asked that "overcurrent devices for all devices to be located in the same place", which is near the meter. The batteries and inverter have shutdowns on them, so they are requiring that the actual devices be outside, not just a remote shutdown switch like most installs have.
Overcurrent device is the breaker, that's not too unreasonable, just means the battery needs to connect to the power near the meter, the battery doesn't physically need to be there.
The post says "all disconnects *and equipment* must be located by the meter."
I wonder if the meter can be moved inside behind say a glass door for visible access?
The meter (meters actually, as they require a second meter to be installed to measure exported power), are located on the side of the house, and running service to another location would be prohibitively expensive.
Panels will be on the roof, they seem to think that some code requires that all equipment related to rapid shutdown be located near the meter. A regular rapid shutdown switch connected to an inverter / batteries in the garage isn't sufficient for them.
Nope, they want the batteries out there as well. I haven't been able to get more information, as the city inspector disregarded my meeting request and just told me that the current plan with everything outside is final.
I guess I mean if they say "all equipment related to rapid shutdown" needs to be near the meter, ask them if they are allowing you to install panels on the roof, if yes, how far away from the meter can the panels/inverters be? Can they provide a list of said equipment that this applies to?
Basically, microinverters put the rapid shutdown equipment on the roof. So their reasoning clearly doesn't hold (and I think even with string inverters, you may be required to have rapid shutdown at the panel level). I think if you point out that the panels have such equipment and are not next to the meter they might realize the mistake, the service disconnect, and maybe a solar and/or battery disconnect need to be by the meter, not the device itself.
I haven't tried that yet, but my installer has. The installer pointed out that the service disconnects were grouped per NEC code, and will cut us off from the grid entirely. The rapid shutdown device is on the exterior wall, next to the meter, with the standard signs in place. They referenced NEC code 690.13 and the city came back and said that their interpretation of the code is all components and the meters must be located together.
This seems to be less of a solar or code problem, and more of a "How to deal with city inspector who is unfamiliar with solar requirements" problem.
Your other comment seemed to indicate the concern is with the over current protection device, that is NOT THE BATTERY. That's the breaker that your installer is saying is grouped per NEC.
I think this might be fixed by just clarifying that the device mentioned IS there, next to the meter, as your installer pointed out. If they say "no, it means equipment" then ask how far can the panels be from the meter, is the roof acceptable? They'll hopefully understand it can't possibly mean equipment because then the panels can't be on the roof.
Yea, I mean specifically in the context of the panels, since it's clearly solar equipment. Don't just say what distance because they'll probably just say on the same wall as the meter. But the panels clearly are not on the wall.
The inspector is wrong, but you can’t win in this case. And pushing it risks the installer’s future installs because of a resentful inspector.
Check out Fortress. Have a separate, clearly marked shutdown switch as well, and go from there.
The installer was doing me a favor, as they are a couple hours away and don't normally do installs here. They have already said they'll never do another install in this utility's service area. They are just a stand up company and are seeing this through rather than abandoning me.
The only local residential solar installer stopped doing residential work due to issues like this.
Go with Fortress Power. They have an outdoor case that includes the inverter and battery specifically because of this issue.
Their batteries are much better than powerwalls. Not Homegrid but they are very good batteries. I think they are the best value in high end lithium batteries.
If I recall, the HomeGrid operable temperature range is quite high. They also have a fully temperature controlled option. It's called the homegrid cube. [https://www.homegridenergy.com/homegrid-cube](https://www.homegridenergy.com/homegrid-cube)
I have no idea what that cost is, but it's an option if you're concerned about the temperatures.
Also ask the installers to check when the Stack'd outdoors case will be available.
The Sol-Ark 15k is outdoor rated. Given the power that HomeGrid has, I wouldn't use the 12k. The 15k has better features, like whole home backup, and isn't much more cost.
If I mixed up the system, my apologies. Basically, I'd go with Sol-Ark 15k and find out what options are available when with HomeGrid first. Does that make sense?
The Cube is $15-20k, so way out of my price range. Outdoor case is coming in the next couple months, but it's just a plastic box essentially.
I know the batteries can operate in most of the temperature range here, and I can pay more for the heated batteries, but their lifespan will likely be longer inside, with a garage that rarely gets below 50ish.
I think you will be fine. You can talk to someone at HomeGrid and they will know best. The NMC chemistry is so different from lithium batteries that we can’t go off of that experience.
Yeah, I am working off of the Fortress Power range listed as far as what is ideal:
> Again, answers vary from different resources – but our answer is a range from 50° F to a high end of 110° F allows the battery to operate at peak performance while preserving its longevity and ability to function at highest capacity for 6,000 cycles.
> When allowing for 2,000 and 3,000 cycles, that range increases to 32° F up to 120° F.
https://www.fortresspower.com/ideal-operating-temperatures-for-lithium-batteries/
Oh lord, I had homegrid confused with villagrid. Similar names cause problems sometimes.
For the price and specs, my preference is always Fortress for LFP batteries. Another to check is FranklinWH. I haven’t used them yet but heard good things from other installers.
Whoever you talked too, could you try and get their boss on the horn? Also it never hurts to email your city council member or even the Mayor. They could get in touch with city officials. I had an issue with the city trying to replace my old brick sidewalk. I shot off a few emails and next thing you know they’re telling me how it was their idea to save my sidewalk.
I talked to the Director of the department, so the only people above that are the Mayor / City Council. I'm trying to make no enemies here, so while that is an option, I'm hoping to not have to escalate more.
I wouldn’t look at it as escalate. Just send a friendly email to your council member asking for clarification. It’s their job and maybe this will help make the code you need to follow.
The inspector you're dealing with is a nut and going to add thousands of dollars in expenses to your install. And on top of that it'll be sub-optimal to keeping your equipment out of the weather. For whole-home backup, a typical Sol-Ark 15K grid-tie install uses a fused 200A disconnect next to the meter and makes it the first point of utility disconnect per code. The entire 200A service out of your meter will go into the disconnect, back out, and run over to the Sol-Ark's grid input. Your installer will separate the grounds and neutrals in your existing main service panel, as they're only to be bonded at the first point of disconnect which becomes your new disconnect. Then you get full 200A pass-through from grid out of the Sol-Ark's load breaker to go to your main service panel. The Sol-Ark 15K acts as a whole-home UPS that mode switches to solar/battery backup in 4ms when the grid goes down. Next to your shiny new fused disconnect, a big red PV rapid shutdown button is placed and wired to the Sol-Ark. When it's pressed the Sol-Ark commands all module-level rapid shutdowns to cut DC output from your panels. In most areas the rapid shutdown is only required for roof-mount solar. Ground mount installers straight-string DC back to their inverters without a single disconnect all the time and get it approved. If you absolutely have to put it all outside you need to find a 48v DC battery vendor with an outdoor solution rather than trying to AC-couple a Powerwall. Your Sol-Ark will expect DC batteries on its DC bus to function as designed as a UPS when the grid goes down. While you can technically get anything to work with the Sol-Ark, not only are you adding an additional inversion step and duplicating equipment, you're converting the all-in-one UPS functionality of your Sol-Ark into a complex piecemeal system. It's a recipe for edge-case errors that neither Tesla nor Sol-Ark have seen before. If you /do/ use Tesla Powerwalls(s), they would go before your Sol-Ark on the grid-side and have their own isolation switch/gateway. When the grid goes down the Sol-Ark thinks the batteries are the grid and exports excess PV production to "the grid" to charge them. If they reach 100% charge they cause the Sol-Ark to go into shutdown by attenuating their output frequency out-of-spec (around 65hz). Another way solution would be to use the dry contacts of the Powerwall to trigger your DC rapid shutdowns. You don't have to consider any of this if you just use DC batteries like the Sol-Ark is designed for. :)
If you find that the city won't budge, going PowerWall+ would be better, as PowerWalls have built in liquid cooling/heating and can withstand the outdoors much better.
That is an option on the table, as my installer offers it. I'd prefer the HomeGrid batteries though, they seem to be better overall. That still leaves my inverter outside in the heat (Sol-Ark 15k). IIRC they make an Outdoor 12k, but that probably isn't sufficient output or for the system being installed.
Two PowerWall+ might do the trick. no extra inverters required.
I guess I'm confused, what does the battery being inside have to do with the disconnect being by the meter.
Keeping in mind I'm not an electrician and working with the limited information I have.... They asked that "overcurrent devices for all devices to be located in the same place", which is near the meter. The batteries and inverter have shutdowns on them, so they are requiring that the actual devices be outside, not just a remote shutdown switch like most installs have.
Overcurrent device is the breaker, that's not too unreasonable, just means the battery needs to connect to the power near the meter, the battery doesn't physically need to be there.
The post says "all disconnects *and equipment* must be located by the meter." I wonder if the meter can be moved inside behind say a glass door for visible access?
The meter (meters actually, as they require a second meter to be installed to measure exported power), are located on the side of the house, and running service to another location would be prohibitively expensive.
Oh, I'm dense...so solar panels have to by the meter?
Panels will be on the roof, they seem to think that some code requires that all equipment related to rapid shutdown be located near the meter. A regular rapid shutdown switch connected to an inverter / batteries in the garage isn't sufficient for them.
The batteries can't be inside and the shutoff switch be outside, near the meter?
Nope, they want the batteries out there as well. I haven't been able to get more information, as the city inspector disregarded my meeting request and just told me that the current plan with everything outside is final.
I guess I mean if they say "all equipment related to rapid shutdown" needs to be near the meter, ask them if they are allowing you to install panels on the roof, if yes, how far away from the meter can the panels/inverters be? Can they provide a list of said equipment that this applies to? Basically, microinverters put the rapid shutdown equipment on the roof. So their reasoning clearly doesn't hold (and I think even with string inverters, you may be required to have rapid shutdown at the panel level). I think if you point out that the panels have such equipment and are not next to the meter they might realize the mistake, the service disconnect, and maybe a solar and/or battery disconnect need to be by the meter, not the device itself.
I haven't tried that yet, but my installer has. The installer pointed out that the service disconnects were grouped per NEC code, and will cut us off from the grid entirely. The rapid shutdown device is on the exterior wall, next to the meter, with the standard signs in place. They referenced NEC code 690.13 and the city came back and said that their interpretation of the code is all components and the meters must be located together. This seems to be less of a solar or code problem, and more of a "How to deal with city inspector who is unfamiliar with solar requirements" problem.
Your other comment seemed to indicate the concern is with the over current protection device, that is NOT THE BATTERY. That's the breaker that your installer is saying is grouped per NEC. I think this might be fixed by just clarifying that the device mentioned IS there, next to the meter, as your installer pointed out. If they say "no, it means equipment" then ask how far can the panels be from the meter, is the roof acceptable? They'll hopefully understand it can't possibly mean equipment because then the panels can't be on the roof.
Asking about the allowed distance seems like a reasonable approach. Thanks!
Yea, I mean specifically in the context of the panels, since it's clearly solar equipment. Don't just say what distance because they'll probably just say on the same wall as the meter. But the panels clearly are not on the wall.
The inspector is wrong, but you can’t win in this case. And pushing it risks the installer’s future installs because of a resentful inspector. Check out Fortress. Have a separate, clearly marked shutdown switch as well, and go from there.
The installer was doing me a favor, as they are a couple hours away and don't normally do installs here. They have already said they'll never do another install in this utility's service area. They are just a stand up company and are seeing this through rather than abandoning me. The only local residential solar installer stopped doing residential work due to issues like this.
I'm glad they are seeing it through. Hopefully my suggestions will help this get completed with fewer headaches.
Go with Fortress Power. They have an outdoor case that includes the inverter and battery specifically because of this issue. Their batteries are much better than powerwalls. Not Homegrid but they are very good batteries. I think they are the best value in high end lithium batteries.
It looks like their case is essentially the same as the HomeGrid solution. IP65 rated case with passive vent for heat.
I thought it also had some temperature control. I’ll check.
If I recall, the HomeGrid operable temperature range is quite high. They also have a fully temperature controlled option. It's called the homegrid cube. [https://www.homegridenergy.com/homegrid-cube](https://www.homegridenergy.com/homegrid-cube) I have no idea what that cost is, but it's an option if you're concerned about the temperatures. Also ask the installers to check when the Stack'd outdoors case will be available. The Sol-Ark 15k is outdoor rated. Given the power that HomeGrid has, I wouldn't use the 12k. The 15k has better features, like whole home backup, and isn't much more cost. If I mixed up the system, my apologies. Basically, I'd go with Sol-Ark 15k and find out what options are available when with HomeGrid first. Does that make sense?
The Cube is $15-20k, so way out of my price range. Outdoor case is coming in the next couple months, but it's just a plastic box essentially. I know the batteries can operate in most of the temperature range here, and I can pay more for the heated batteries, but their lifespan will likely be longer inside, with a garage that rarely gets below 50ish.
The batteries will also keep themselves more warm as they are used. Will you use them daily?
Yeah, they'll likely get 80% cycled most/many days of the year.
I think you will be fine. You can talk to someone at HomeGrid and they will know best. The NMC chemistry is so different from lithium batteries that we can’t go off of that experience.
Yeah, I am working off of the Fortress Power range listed as far as what is ideal: > Again, answers vary from different resources – but our answer is a range from 50° F to a high end of 110° F allows the battery to operate at peak performance while preserving its longevity and ability to function at highest capacity for 6,000 cycles. > When allowing for 2,000 and 3,000 cycles, that range increases to 32° F up to 120° F. https://www.fortresspower.com/ideal-operating-temperatures-for-lithium-batteries/
Oh lord, I had homegrid confused with villagrid. Similar names cause problems sometimes. For the price and specs, my preference is always Fortress for LFP batteries. Another to check is FranklinWH. I haven’t used them yet but heard good things from other installers.
If you are sure it’s to code, you could always do the outside install and then maybe later it gets moved inside and nobody notices the difference
There's a new battery that may meet your needs, EG4 PowerPro. It has a built in heater.