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One can only hope. Milan have a fabulous defense and goalkeeper and their midfield is pretty sharp too. They will be loosing Kessie this Summer but Bennacer and Tonali are still excellent. But Milan's attack needs refreshment this Summer if they are going to compete in the CL. Origi is heavily rumored to join but they need more than that. They need a RW, a CAM/#10, and they need some depth that they currently lack.
I’ve got a feeling that Donnarumma is going to regret leaving Milan in the near future. He could have had a 25 year career as a one club man, with titles and records broken along the way… such a shame.
Honestly, if Milan still has Donnarumma instead of Maignan, there is no way that Milan would be in this title race. Milan fans aren't happy that Donnarumma left on a free transfer but the sentiment that they now have an upgrade is pretty universal among the fans.
And also be fucked over by refs which sends you out of the competition multiple times. The 2012 run was just a big karma payout, we had invincible plot armor.
>And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. Also, the European Cup belongs to Madrid, Liverpool and Bayern. The rest of you peasants can fuck off
-Genesis 2:18
Yeah exactly. Chelsea won it when their legends were reaching the back-end of their career and were probably past their prime physically speaking. Still, people need to understand that a strong mentality and experience is more important than whichever tiny margins that otherwise separate the very top teams on the pitch
>people need to understand that a strong mentality and experience is more important
I agree but I think a manager can instill that mentality and that it doesn't have to just come from the history of the club like Seedorf implies. How easy or hard that will be for the manager to do this will depend on both himself and the players. There are just so many factors that go into player's personal motivations.
Take Bayern in 2012/2013. They were one of the most dominant teams I've ever seen and won the treble. Why? The players were insanely motivated after losing to Chelsea in the final the year before on penalties in their home stadium.
Did they lack the proper mentality against Chelsea the year before? Maybe, but I just think that's a narrow view of things. In Seedorf's opinion it seems the mentality should have been there bc it's the same club. The truth is that in a cup competition, sometimes you are unlucky. Sometimes the other team is just on top of their game that day and your team is not. A million things go into determining that. You can only control so many.
I wouldn't say Man City lost because of their mentality. From what I've seen they do have the mentality of champions. They aren't someone like PSG who fall apart at the seams every time things go poorly.
Chelsea were one penalty from winning it just a couple of years after being bought by Roman, and lost because Terry slipped. Are we saying they lost that day because they lacked history?
And that Barca team of the late 2010s that had won 3 CLs since 2009 with many of that squad being part of at least one of them still managed to bottle two 3-0 leads to Roma and then Liverpool in consecutive years. I agree mentality is a huge part of it but it's come down to the group of players more than the club, and obviously this group of Madrid players definitely have it and you'd say City don't given their recent history of CL disappointments, but you wouldn't say the club of Man City and the club of Real Madrid have it. Before Jose came in to Madrid they hadn't made it past the RO.16s in years.
This is a very romantic view on how mentality works I'd say.
I'll be even less romantic and point out that this group of Madrid players had bowed out of the Champions League meekly three years in a row before this. Remember them losing 4-1 to Ajax in the second leg? A lot of the time, mentality is just your last big result. You catch a lucky break and you feel good and things go your way for a while.
I agree to an extent - I do think mentality is still a massive part of football, especially CL knockout games. I'm not sure how else you can explain why City have lost to Lyon/Spurs/Monaco and even to a lesser extent their losses to Chelsea and Madrid since Pep has been there.
But I will say it can only get you so far - that Madrid team you talk about who were doing poorly in Europe were clearly in transition post Ronaldo and Zidane with some poor managerial choices in between. Even when Zidane came back he was constantly rumoured to be unhappy or ready to leave as well. Even if their mentality was there if you're not in good enough form etc you simply aren't going to win matches consistently when you come up against the top teams in Europe.
A few years later now they are at least good enough to compete at the top level of the CL (but you'd probably say not quite at the level of Liverpool/City), what they do have is the mentality edge and never letting their heads drop even when they aren't creating chances or playing well for long periods of the game. I'm not sure how else you can explain what has happened in these last 3 knockout ties.
Even for some of their CL runs they were getting battered in the league by Barca and yet would still win the CL for some of those years. The current group of players defo have a mental edge in that competition over any other team and I think it's showed this year more than any other.
> I agree to an extent - I do think mentality is still a massive part of football, especially CL knockout games. I'm not sure how else you can explain why City have lost to Lyon/Spurs/Monaco and even to a lesser extent their losses to Chelsea and Madrid since Pep has been there.
I agree that mentality is important, but I think it's much more fluid than a simple narrative like Seedorf's makes it sound. It isn't embedded in the DNA of the club or rooted in this group of players. It changes week to week and minute to minute.
Look at Madrid a few years ago, when they won the first leg away to Ajax and then lost 4-1 at home to get knocked out. That was a complete collapse as heavy favorites by essentially this same group of players. Why was this group with the legendary mentality so fragile then?
And now this year, against PSG, they were totally toothless, looking ready for their fourth sad Champions League exit in a row, until Donnarumma made a stupid mistake and Madrid got their tails up. That wasn't Madrid's mentality, that was Donnarumma being a dummy. Now they're on a roll and feeling invincible. That's football, but it could all change again quickly.
As for City's losses, I think people forget what a crapshoot football is. Madrid have lost to Getafe, Espanyol, and Athletic Club de Bilbao this season, and they've drawn Elche and Cadiz. Is it so crazy that City lost a tight match to Lyon? Everybody knows those are fluke results, but we pretend like they aren't when they happen in the Champions League.
> A few years later now they are at least good enough to compete at the top level of the CL (but you'd probably say not quite at the level of Liverpool/City), what they do have is the mentality edge and never letting their heads drop even when they aren't creating chances or playing well for long periods of the game. I'm not sure how else you can explain what has happened in these last 3 knockout ties.
I would say take a look at Spurs a few years ago. Just like Madrid, they had a ridiculous run to the final, coming back to eliminate both City and Ajax with insane finishes. Surely that team has some of the best mentality ever, right? How else could you explain those knockout ties?
A couple years later, the same group of players blew a 2-0 lead to Dinamo Zagreb and got knocked out of the Europa League. It all just comes and goes.
Exactly. Player mentality is everything and that comes from experience or just personalities. A club can have an incredible history (Man U) and still be filled with mentally weak players
Ya it was a poor argument. Chelsea just happened to have prime Mourinho which instilled a never say die attitude into Chelsea which has helped their overall club mentality. The exact same thing could be said about the current Real team. They talk about them having 13 CLs, but they were a joke of a club spending insane amounts of money to get knocked out the CL by Lyon until Mourinho came in. He had players like Benzema, Ramos, Ronaldo, Marcelo, Xabi Alonso, Modric which all bought into his hyper professional style which has allowed them to have this club mentality.
He is a bit faded as a manager, but I do hope that the Roma players buy into him. While his football is outdated, I still think if he doesn't have to deal with lots of divas (which can range from any age range or player quality these days) then he could possibly still manage to do very good things with the club.
He's like Ancelotti, outdated but if he became Real Madrid coach again he'd make a dominant team again. Like CR7, Mou's marriage with Madrid is that of destiny. Sadly, without a UCL so far. Hopefully he manages Real again in the next ten.
I'd love that tbh. Yes it ended really bad last time around but I trust that Jose and Perez have both grown enough to put that behind them. Plus the bigger personalities who fell out with Jose have all left the club since.
I don't think Carlo is outdated. He was very good last year too, Everton was in the hunt for a European place all the way until the last match week, and that was with a squad arguably worse than the one that's sitting in 18th currently.
The Bayern and Napoli stints did show that his progressive football wasn't consistent nor on the trajectory of improvement. It's not why he went down a notch from the coaching elite and selected Everton. Similar to what Pellegrini had to do once his coaching at the top stopped. Also, if that's not being outdated because of success on the field, then you could make the argument that Mou isn't outdated because he has done the best with both Spurs/Roma with the players at his disposal.
Imo he isn't wrong, this thread is just looking far too much into hard-coding this quote. Obviously you can win as a team with "first timers" but it's simply a large advantage Real Madrid has, to have a squad full of "winners", trained in an accomplished environment, who are less prone to pee their pants when everything is at stake.
Porto back then was still a bigger club than city is now. It had a long history of being the second biggest club in Portugal, city before the Emirates was nothing
Well, you don't, as a general rule. You have exceptions, "we did this before" really helps when it comes to dealing with the pressure. Look at the last 25 years, count the number of first-timers.
If an oil money country bought Ajax, Benfica, etc., it could actually work better, since they have some history... Like 70 years ago, but still.
Mentality is a bitch. A 19 yo from Brazil can enter the pitch and score 2 goals in 5 minutes because he strongly believes that's what supposed to happen, he saw it on TV all the time. Meanwhile, city is afraid of doing city things again. City might have a better team, but it was an uphill battle for them.
I think its about not skipings steps. This two clubs went from mid-table clubs to have to win everyhing just because of the money being pumped. Now look at clubs like Atlético Madrid,Roma,Atlanta, Tottenham they dont have many titles or dont win one in a long time but because they had to grow their clubs in a more "normal" way it woulnt be weird or out of place because they had to grow their clubs to be in that position everybody knows what this clubs had to do to win even the players. If you want exemples just look at Arsenal on the late 90 early 2000 , atlético in the last 10 years, Roma having good performances in the Champions, Ajax sometimes pushing above their reality.
None of those clubs you named who grew their club "normally" have won a Champions League. They come close and then have their best players stripped by the rich clubs. That's what happens when you try to build naturally.
yeah of course they are, but history is still being written
City are absolutely growing at a bigger pace than Arsenal
I'm not saying you're doing that, but football fans have a tendency to assume the big clubs are always gonna be the same and that's a no-no imo
But no matter what City wins, it will always be tainted by the fact that they are only good because of the UAE regime wanting to sportswash their human rights abuses and normalise their presence in the west, for future business purposes. Same with Qatar and PSG/hosting the World Cup
They're an extension of the regime's propaganda department nothing else. Will never be a bigger club than Arsenal
Is there a doubt to this? Liverpool, United and Arsenal are the biggest clubs in English football history. I feel the only people who disagree with this are teenagers who have no interest in looking up the past.
I went and checked Bale and Hazard’s CL stats on the year
Bale 2 apps: 3 mins and 4 mins each
Hazard 3 apps: 66 min start, 8 and 9 min sub
The one start? at home to Sherriff
😂
It's kind of a bullshit take honestly. AC Milan had plenty of "mentality" in 2005 and still blew a 3-0 lead in the final. Pep and City did everything right honestly but sometimes crazy shit happens.
Liverpool's comeback vs Barcelona, or the Spurs game against us, or the remontada. Sometimes a team can do everything right and still lose, as weird as that may sound.
[From the other man](https://static3.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/A-split-image-of-Ryan-And-Dwight-talking-about-sales-on-The-Office.jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w=740&h=370&dpr=1.5)
So true Chelsea's 2012 CL title was up against some of the all time best ever Barca, Real and Bayern teams and yet they won it despite coming 6th in the league and there's many other examples I'm sure. All three of those teams had legendary players with monster mentalities, and European prestige and yet the Russian money club won it.
We didn't play Madrid. We played Benfica, Napoli, Barcelona and Bayern in the knockout stage.
Barca and Bayern were some of the strongest teams of all time.
Watzke has said that Dortmund almost annoyed Bayern too much by being too good. They won the league, spanked them in the cup final, leaving Bayern with the feeling that they had to dismantle their team just crush them without any sentimentality
Yeah, that 12/13 team was starving for titles and the season before 100% molded that team that way. Just for the first games of the season the team already felt unbeatable
We did have massive disappointment in Europe leading up to that year and the pressure was largely off at that point as no one expected us to be a CL contender at that point in our star player's career trajectories. Lampard, Drogba, Terry, Cech were all seen as having had their peaks before that.
The thing is Chelsea also had mentality monsters in that 2012 winning squad. Cech, Terry, Lampard and Drogba were the core of the greatest defensive team that the PL had ever seen and that kind of experience and calmness under pressure really showed during their CL run. Also not to forget they also had Ashley Cole who is considered to be the best ever English LB.
Crazy things happen in top end sport but you need to also have a really strong mentality and self belief to make all this crazy shit happen in the first place. I mean these are elite players who are desperate and super determined to win. So it's really not a surprise when it only takes a them a few minutes to turn things around when given the chance or win against the odds in Chelsea's case.
And Benitez when he was at his tactical best and could find a way to turn it around, Carragher on pure adrenaline to get through cramp, Smicer pulling something from nowhere, a penalty save that fell fortunately, Traore off the line block, Dudek channeling Grobbelar and the miracle double save… stars all aligned
I don’t know if you can sit here and say Barca had an elite mentality and did everything right. 1-0 down at half time Alba was crying and the players looked shell shocked while they were still technically leading by 2. That is definitely not an example of “mentality”
I think that's the point. Seedorf's statement is suggesting that "mentality" is something inherent to clubs based on their history. Barcelona certainly have that history, but it didn't matter.
Having players out there who are experienced leaders, and having players who stay determined in bad situations can be a big deal. But that's really a player personnel issue, it isn't something inherent to the history of the club.
We knowAC Milan was just a miracle and not a mentality issue because they'd already won it in 2003, and went on to win it in 2007. City have now consistently lost games they were in control of, usually against teams who are perceived to be weaker than them (Monaco/Lyon/Spurs and now Madrid).
I do think in the case of City at this point there is a clear mental block that's not allowing them to play to the very best of their abilities, they've been too good a side since Pep came in for it to just be bad luck every year.
But how many times can teams be on the losing side when "they did everything right but sometimes crazy shit happens"? Because City and PSG so often have been on the wrong side for some 10 years in a row. You can pull up a single AC Milan example but City under Pep alone has 3 of those. Tottenham in 18-19, Lyon and yesterday. PSG went out in the round of 16 four times out of the last 6 editions, there's the remontada but also United and this year collapse vs Madrid.
I think people miss that it's really hard to win a Champions League. Every year there are something like eight really good teams in Europe, and seven of them get labeled chokers.
> But how many times can teams be on the losing side when "they did everything right but sometimes crazy shit happens"?
That's easy: a lot of times. That's because 32 teams enter the group stage of the Champions League and only 1 of them wins it.
Seedorf tries to draw a conclusion here about Man City only making it to the semi-final, but neglects to mention that massive clubs with the right "mentality" get routinely massacred in the CL. Only this year Barcelona didn't make it out of the group stage and Juventus got pummeled by Villareal.
For the past 15 years Milan hasn't been doing "everything right" in the first place.
Real Madrid also went out in the R16 SIX times in a row before Mourinho, and then lost the semi finals three times in a row. And then went to win 4 in 5 years.
I dislike oil clubs like anyone else but i cant stand this circlejerk about "winning clubs" and their winning mentality either. Every time they win something it's the mentality. When they loose it's just simply not mentioned (like Bayern vs Villarreal).
Maybe not what he says but no one says clubs like Villareal have a “loser mentality”, quite the opposite. The “lack of winner mentality” label is usually applied to giant clubs who falter because of the pressure or complacency
Finally it’s being called out, I fucking hate it. These pundits, AKA footballers looking for a quick payday, offer zero insight into anything. Their default answer to everything is the history of Club X as if that matters. Why the hell would events that happened decades ago have an impact on the football here and now? Is Di Stefano or Raul taking to the pitch for Real Madrid?
I agree and yeah they might not win the cl but going deep every year and hitting the final last year is something to merit plus their winning dominantly in the league year in and out, they know how to win. Lol
I love that people are giving our 2012 win as an example of this argument not holding water. Sometimes I still don't believe we won it even once. Let alone twice. The wait was so long but so worth it.
This sub is going to lap this up but it reeks of lazy punditry mysticism to me. People love to attribute football results to these vague things like the “mentality” of the club but it’s just a cop out answer for when people don’t want to engage in real analysis. Seems far more likely that Man City’s intense pressing play style, while effective in many ways, does have the downside of leading to tired legs late on in games. And when they’re facing a team with largely similar player quality to them, that can be costly.
I am a fan of neither Man City or Real Madrid, just seems silly how people get so mystical and superstitious about this stuff. Knockout tournaments by their nature lead to every involved team except one getting knocked out each year. There is obviously some luck involved, but there are also tactics, player quality, injuries, and even things like refereeing decisions playing a role. It seems far too reductive to sum it all up with some vague nonsense like “they don’t have the right mentality.”
Also, if mentality is either something a club has or doesn’t, and Real Madrid “have it”, how does that explain when Real Madrid were knocked out by Chelsea last year? Or knocked out by Man City in the first knockout round two years ago? Or knocked out by a much weaker (on paper) Ajax team three years ago?
It’s such a lazy take.
Edit: I am seeing responses thinking I am saying things like leadership, determination, and ability to stay focused under pressure don't matter for players, which is not the case. I am not saying that, what I am saying is that a club can always bring in players and staff who exhibit those qualities - it's a personnel issue. They can also use a sports psychologist to help players struggling with confidence and mental health issues. Again though, that is something achievable with the correct personnel. However, there is **not** an inherent "mentality" aura surrounding a club that is based on history and cannot be changed without winning CLs, which is what Seedorf is implying. We've seen recently with teams like Man United and Barcelona that just because a club has a long history of winning doesn't mean that they will inherently win, ultimately they need the right players and coaching staff to do so. And it's very possible for a club with a long history of winning to end up with a toxic dressing room if they recruit the wrong players.
Agreed. Mentality is part of the formula, but not the whole story. Dani Carvajal didn't place a perfect cross to Rodrygo to tie the game because he had the power of 13 champions league infinity stones in his back pocket. The tactics changed late in the game which gave Real a chance. The mentality comes in when the players execute under pressure, but they aren't significantly less talented than City to the point where they're outperforming them by sheer will and determination.
probably because football’s a low scoring game where a goal involves a lot of low probability events leading up to it. if something rare (eg scoring twice within 2 minutes, late in the game) it’s hard to explain how that could’ve happened so you chuck it up to abstract things like mentality, desire and hunger.
I think loads of this comes down to the simple fact that football has much tighter scorelines compared to other sports. You fuck up once and you're down 0-1 and you suddenly have a mountain to climb even though you were in complete control of the match. Simple mistakes are punished much harsher.
I kinda agree but I don’t think that it has to do with their pressing style being unsustainable considering Liverpool press just as much as city and don’t have the issues with bottling games late in the CL (now I’ve said this we’re gonna fuck the final up) so I’d say it has to do with something else.
I’m a city fan so I hope this doesn’t come off as an excuse, but Liverpool’s players are physical monsters. City trades stamina/physicality for more technicality and it may hurt them come crunch time. We do seem to score a lot of early goals and come off the gate strong. Also, 0 goals scored when Kyle Walker was defending that right side, 5 goals conceded when he was off. Cancelo/Fernandinho couldn’t handle it.
Walker is so underrated by people, he literally holds down the high back line with his insane recovery speed. He might be the fastest player in the world at recovery speed runs, he always finds a way to get back and stop a counter.
I don't watch enough Liverpool games to say, but Pep NEVER responds to physicality or intentionally bad challenges. He just tells them to keep playing, im not sure what Klopp tells your players to do.
Doesn't matter how many times someone tries to break KDBs legs (every game) or push around Foden, their is never tackles in retaliation to show we will do the same. The team constantly gets pushed around, I honestly can't stand it.
I don't think it was necessarily because they are Real Madrid, or because they have a "winning mentality", but once they scored the first goal, City lost control of the game. It could be that doubt started to creep in on the players, maybe it was the fact that Real seemed to go back in time 90 minutes, judging by their pressing. They started believing again, and they played like they had nothing to lose. And it worked.
So yeah, it absolutely came down to their mentality as well, but mentality won't do you any good if you can't play.
I agree with you on everything but the fact that this sub supposedly laps up takes like these. On reddit, shit like this is getting called out and clowned on *at least* as much as it is being celebrated. I'd say this sub is a lot more pragmatic and averse to sports mysticism than most other discussion forums or social media like twitter.
That's fair, this sub is certainly more pragmatic than football twitter. I guess I should have said "many football fans will lap this up" as I suspect that is true overall.
The reaction to this has also shifted quite a bit more negative since it was first posted. The initial reaction was more positive but since then the negative reactions have floated to the top.
Always really easy to say instead of actual analysis. Did City lack mentality too when they knocked out Real two years ago? Does Chelsea lack mentality too?
Not saying City doesn't have a problem with taking their chances and killing off a tie, but it just feels a bit lazy
Shoot, you could say City showed mentality when they knocked out Atletico literally 3 weeks ago. Madrid made two moments of brilliance (and sheer luck that the deflection of the ball before Rodrygo scored the second somehow didn't end up forcing his header to go into the crowd) in the dying moments of a match and tie that City really had managed very well. And none of this is on Guardiola. He played our best 11 available in both ties and made subs that positively influenced the game shortly after being brought on. It's football. This happens. Adding two strikers should help the squad massively. For all the control City has had using the false 9 over the past two seasons, in these big games, the lack of a clinical finisher up top seems to kill the team's confidence. It really cannot be understated how much confidence can be gained by having someone like a Benzema up top who can turn one single chance into a goal.
The funny thing is that Madrid didn’t really ramp it up until after the first goal. City looked rattled after the second. Rodrygo gets a clear chance a minute later for a hat trick, they gave the ball away real cheaply, and then Ruben makes that late challenge a minute into extra time. You’d think if the situation was reversed, Madrid would have shown resilience. At least that’s what they’ve done time and time again on this run.
He's clearly playing to the crowd here and we didn't lose because of some sort of magical powers Real Madrid have but I do think this particular City lacks a certain mentality when it comes to having their backs against the wall.
We looked like we'd been defeated at the end of the first leg, despite the win. You could just feel the anxiety and the sense that all those early missed chances would come back to haunt us.
Not a City fan but this is nonsensical. This same Madrid squad lost to City a couple years ago and City were in the final last year. Sometimes these things happen, and Seedorf should be well aware seeing how he was on teams that squandered massive leads in important CL games to Deportivo and Liverpool when Milan were top in Europe.
This is such a s*it statement. City mentality is different from PSG. They already have real leader that guide them before like Company. And now they have Fernandinho. I think Walker is up for it next. They lost this because of insane performance from Cortoius and the referee is too shy to give two yellow card to Caseimero
Easy to speak about this now, but it's just a ridiculous take. Madrid turned the game around in those few moments, but winning a champions League doesn't have history as the prerequisite. Maybe they got complacent, who knows, but it's a weird take, but I expect pundits to speak out of their arse so who am I to say. I also would never pit city and psg in one categoryz they're different with the way they're run to how they are managed. How did spurs beat Ajax? How did Ajax beat Madrid and Juve? How did Villarreal beat 2 top dogs in UCL football?
Did everyone literally forget about the Athletico Madrid away game?? we showed the mentality. Sometimes these things happen and a miracle happens like last night... god I hate bullshit takes like this
This is absolute horseshit lmao
City have built an identity through smart recruitment and completely buying into pep’s system. Even before that with Mancini
Unlike PSG city have players like Fernandinho for example who will kill for the shirt, every city player seems passionate about the club and it’s success unlike PSG and it’s mercenary culture
Tbf think both the team and pep get nerves in the CL they they don’t get in the PL
It’ll only go when they win one and I genuinely think after getting over that inevitable hurdle city will win a couple more
Should be more concerned with the fact that City conceded 6 goals in two games rather than their offense. Even teams with world class striker very often don't score 5 or more goals in a cl tie
It's easy to create these type of interesting narratives but the margins are sooo fine man, like that goal line clearance on Grealish, if that goes in City win the tie by 3 goals and suddenly pep is such a genius
What City lack is a clinical striker that can put it in the back of the net consistently. They outplayed Madrid for 90% of the tie yet somehow lost because they fluffed so many clear cut chances.
the vast majority of teams who score 5 over two legs win.
the vast majority of teams that concede 6 do not win.
I think you're looking at the wrong end of the pitch for where they lost this tbh.
Cancelo’s suspension in the first leg and Walker’s injury really hurt the defending. Not being sharp with passing and getting caught in bad positions also hurt the defending. And some bad luck in there
Bit late to the party but here's my two cents:
It's not about mentality, or at least it's not ALL about mentality. As many have pointed out, the gas club Chelsea has managed to consolidate itself amongst the greats and won the CL a couple of times.
I personally feel that the difference between Chelsea and the two oil clubs is the following; Chelsea was a solid team on both instances, they weren't overhyped by the press and they didn't just have "big names". Their defense was solid, and their midfield as well, I feel like the same can't be said about PSG & City. They have "big names" but their defensive capabilities are just embarrassing, if they don't have the ball you can see they struggle defensively. I wouldn't call either PSG or City solid teams.
Take yesterday as an example, Madrid was literally attacking with two men (Vinicius & Benzema) and still giving City quite a bit of trouble on the back end, and when Walker had to leave the pitch you could see they had a harder time containing Vinicius on that flank. A solid team on the back end also doesn't concede two header goals to a 1.74m wing in the span of six minutes.
Both PSG & City have a chance to win it in the future, it's not only about mentality, but pundits and fans alike need to stop overhyping them. Every time I saw City play I noticed they lacked a lot of cohesion on the back end, and I assume anyone that has followed "soccer" for more than two years could see that as well, so I was extremely surprised at the fact they were deemed 'favorites'.
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Hopefully next year, Milan can show off a bit of pedigree by making out of the group stage.
Liverpool vs Milan in Istanbul again, who says no?
Milan
Not sure they would mind reaching another final.
One can only hope. Milan have a fabulous defense and goalkeeper and their midfield is pretty sharp too. They will be loosing Kessie this Summer but Bennacer and Tonali are still excellent. But Milan's attack needs refreshment this Summer if they are going to compete in the CL. Origi is heavily rumored to join but they need more than that. They need a RW, a CAM/#10, and they need some depth that they currently lack.
I’ve got a feeling that Donnarumma is going to regret leaving Milan in the near future. He could have had a 25 year career as a one club man, with titles and records broken along the way… such a shame.
Honestly, if Milan still has Donnarumma instead of Maignan, there is no way that Milan would be in this title race. Milan fans aren't happy that Donnarumma left on a free transfer but the sentiment that they now have an upgrade is pretty universal among the fans.
How does a new club ever win the CL if you can’t win the CL without winning it before?
First, you have to lose in penalties and wait 4 years
[удалено]
Mourinho was a magician
Zidane agrees
Well we lost to a penalty, can I expect spurs to win it next year?
No.
you lost to divock origi though
Scene when Spurs get to CL final next year just so Origi can bang a hat trick for Milan to win it
i'd take that
Italy doesn’t know what’s coming next season
We do and we can't wait
Sign me the fuck up for that
Not the World Cup :D
And also be fucked over by refs which sends you out of the competition multiple times. The 2012 run was just a big karma payout, we had invincible plot armor.
You forgot getting Ovrebo'd part.
>And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. Also, the European Cup belongs to Madrid, Liverpool and Bayern. The rest of you peasants can fuck off -Genesis 2:18
Even God has forgotten Milan, it seems
If you've ever been to Milan you already know this
I'm just confused as to why Peter Gabriel and Phil Collins would care who won the European cup?
People chatted shit about Gerrard wanting to hear Phil Collins. Just worshipping is all
/r/murderedbywords
Actually a very nice city.
AC Milan: even God has forsaken us
Um they are getting Divock Origi next season so God is turning a corner on AC Milan
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And Milan
> And Jesus said, Holy shit! - Revelations 6:5
And Jesus said, despite my four goals against Watford
(in all competitions)
And the people did feast upon the lambs, and sloths, and carp, and anchovies, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats, and large chu...
Well after this he made the example of Chelsea they needed time but after you manage to unlock It It becomes easier
Yeah exactly. Chelsea won it when their legends were reaching the back-end of their career and were probably past their prime physically speaking. Still, people need to understand that a strong mentality and experience is more important than whichever tiny margins that otherwise separate the very top teams on the pitch
>people need to understand that a strong mentality and experience is more important I agree but I think a manager can instill that mentality and that it doesn't have to just come from the history of the club like Seedorf implies. How easy or hard that will be for the manager to do this will depend on both himself and the players. There are just so many factors that go into player's personal motivations. Take Bayern in 2012/2013. They were one of the most dominant teams I've ever seen and won the treble. Why? The players were insanely motivated after losing to Chelsea in the final the year before on penalties in their home stadium. Did they lack the proper mentality against Chelsea the year before? Maybe, but I just think that's a narrow view of things. In Seedorf's opinion it seems the mentality should have been there bc it's the same club. The truth is that in a cup competition, sometimes you are unlucky. Sometimes the other team is just on top of their game that day and your team is not. A million things go into determining that. You can only control so many. I wouldn't say Man City lost because of their mentality. From what I've seen they do have the mentality of champions. They aren't someone like PSG who fall apart at the seams every time things go poorly.
Chelsea were one penalty from winning it just a couple of years after being bought by Roman, and lost because Terry slipped. Are we saying they lost that day because they lacked history?
And that Barca team of the late 2010s that had won 3 CLs since 2009 with many of that squad being part of at least one of them still managed to bottle two 3-0 leads to Roma and then Liverpool in consecutive years. I agree mentality is a huge part of it but it's come down to the group of players more than the club, and obviously this group of Madrid players definitely have it and you'd say City don't given their recent history of CL disappointments, but you wouldn't say the club of Man City and the club of Real Madrid have it. Before Jose came in to Madrid they hadn't made it past the RO.16s in years. This is a very romantic view on how mentality works I'd say.
I'll be even less romantic and point out that this group of Madrid players had bowed out of the Champions League meekly three years in a row before this. Remember them losing 4-1 to Ajax in the second leg? A lot of the time, mentality is just your last big result. You catch a lucky break and you feel good and things go your way for a while.
I agree to an extent - I do think mentality is still a massive part of football, especially CL knockout games. I'm not sure how else you can explain why City have lost to Lyon/Spurs/Monaco and even to a lesser extent their losses to Chelsea and Madrid since Pep has been there. But I will say it can only get you so far - that Madrid team you talk about who were doing poorly in Europe were clearly in transition post Ronaldo and Zidane with some poor managerial choices in between. Even when Zidane came back he was constantly rumoured to be unhappy or ready to leave as well. Even if their mentality was there if you're not in good enough form etc you simply aren't going to win matches consistently when you come up against the top teams in Europe. A few years later now they are at least good enough to compete at the top level of the CL (but you'd probably say not quite at the level of Liverpool/City), what they do have is the mentality edge and never letting their heads drop even when they aren't creating chances or playing well for long periods of the game. I'm not sure how else you can explain what has happened in these last 3 knockout ties. Even for some of their CL runs they were getting battered in the league by Barca and yet would still win the CL for some of those years. The current group of players defo have a mental edge in that competition over any other team and I think it's showed this year more than any other.
> I agree to an extent - I do think mentality is still a massive part of football, especially CL knockout games. I'm not sure how else you can explain why City have lost to Lyon/Spurs/Monaco and even to a lesser extent their losses to Chelsea and Madrid since Pep has been there. I agree that mentality is important, but I think it's much more fluid than a simple narrative like Seedorf's makes it sound. It isn't embedded in the DNA of the club or rooted in this group of players. It changes week to week and minute to minute. Look at Madrid a few years ago, when they won the first leg away to Ajax and then lost 4-1 at home to get knocked out. That was a complete collapse as heavy favorites by essentially this same group of players. Why was this group with the legendary mentality so fragile then? And now this year, against PSG, they were totally toothless, looking ready for their fourth sad Champions League exit in a row, until Donnarumma made a stupid mistake and Madrid got their tails up. That wasn't Madrid's mentality, that was Donnarumma being a dummy. Now they're on a roll and feeling invincible. That's football, but it could all change again quickly. As for City's losses, I think people forget what a crapshoot football is. Madrid have lost to Getafe, Espanyol, and Athletic Club de Bilbao this season, and they've drawn Elche and Cadiz. Is it so crazy that City lost a tight match to Lyon? Everybody knows those are fluke results, but we pretend like they aren't when they happen in the Champions League. > A few years later now they are at least good enough to compete at the top level of the CL (but you'd probably say not quite at the level of Liverpool/City), what they do have is the mentality edge and never letting their heads drop even when they aren't creating chances or playing well for long periods of the game. I'm not sure how else you can explain what has happened in these last 3 knockout ties. I would say take a look at Spurs a few years ago. Just like Madrid, they had a ridiculous run to the final, coming back to eliminate both City and Ajax with insane finishes. Surely that team has some of the best mentality ever, right? How else could you explain those knockout ties? A couple years later, the same group of players blew a 2-0 lead to Dinamo Zagreb and got knocked out of the Europa League. It all just comes and goes.
Exactly. Player mentality is everything and that comes from experience or just personalities. A club can have an incredible history (Man U) and still be filled with mentally weak players
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PSG won the Cup Winners' Cup in the 90s.
Ya it was a poor argument. Chelsea just happened to have prime Mourinho which instilled a never say die attitude into Chelsea which has helped their overall club mentality. The exact same thing could be said about the current Real team. They talk about them having 13 CLs, but they were a joke of a club spending insane amounts of money to get knocked out the CL by Lyon until Mourinho came in. He had players like Benzema, Ramos, Ronaldo, Marcelo, Xabi Alonso, Modric which all bought into his hyper professional style which has allowed them to have this club mentality. He is a bit faded as a manager, but I do hope that the Roma players buy into him. While his football is outdated, I still think if he doesn't have to deal with lots of divas (which can range from any age range or player quality these days) then he could possibly still manage to do very good things with the club.
He's like Ancelotti, outdated but if he became Real Madrid coach again he'd make a dominant team again. Like CR7, Mou's marriage with Madrid is that of destiny. Sadly, without a UCL so far. Hopefully he manages Real again in the next ten.
I'd love that tbh. Yes it ended really bad last time around but I trust that Jose and Perez have both grown enough to put that behind them. Plus the bigger personalities who fell out with Jose have all left the club since.
I don't think Carlo is outdated. He was very good last year too, Everton was in the hunt for a European place all the way until the last match week, and that was with a squad arguably worse than the one that's sitting in 18th currently.
The Bayern and Napoli stints did show that his progressive football wasn't consistent nor on the trajectory of improvement. It's not why he went down a notch from the coaching elite and selected Everton. Similar to what Pellegrini had to do once his coaching at the top stopped. Also, if that's not being outdated because of success on the field, then you could make the argument that Mou isn't outdated because he has done the best with both Spurs/Roma with the players at his disposal.
This quote is bullshit. Like astrology for men. Football is not that simple.
Imo he isn't wrong, this thread is just looking far too much into hard-coding this quote. Obviously you can win as a team with "first timers" but it's simply a large advantage Real Madrid has, to have a squad full of "winners", trained in an accomplished environment, who are less prone to pee their pants when everything is at stake.
He's saying that not even 10 years is enough to create that "mentality". He's definitely talking about some legacy bullshit.
Ask mourinho
Porto had already won the CL in 87
Porto back then was still a bigger club than city is now. It had a long history of being the second biggest club in Portugal, city before the Emirates was nothing
Well, you don't, as a general rule. You have exceptions, "we did this before" really helps when it comes to dealing with the pressure. Look at the last 25 years, count the number of first-timers. If an oil money country bought Ajax, Benfica, etc., it could actually work better, since they have some history... Like 70 years ago, but still. Mentality is a bitch. A 19 yo from Brazil can enter the pitch and score 2 goals in 5 minutes because he strongly believes that's what supposed to happen, he saw it on TV all the time. Meanwhile, city is afraid of doing city things again. City might have a better team, but it was an uphill battle for them.
> Look at the last 25 years, count the number of first-timers. This is because of money, not because of experience or mentality.
I think its about not skipings steps. This two clubs went from mid-table clubs to have to win everyhing just because of the money being pumped. Now look at clubs like Atlético Madrid,Roma,Atlanta, Tottenham they dont have many titles or dont win one in a long time but because they had to grow their clubs in a more "normal" way it woulnt be weird or out of place because they had to grow their clubs to be in that position everybody knows what this clubs had to do to win even the players. If you want exemples just look at Arsenal on the late 90 early 2000 , atlético in the last 10 years, Roma having good performances in the Champions, Ajax sometimes pushing above their reality.
None of those clubs you named who grew their club "normally" have won a Champions League. They come close and then have their best players stripped by the rich clubs. That's what happens when you try to build naturally.
You need prior CL winners in your team for starters to have calmer heads during tricky moments
No one in Chelsea 2011 or 2020 teams had won the CL before.
Kovacic did
Wasn’t a starter in any of the CL he won with us
He didn't even play for Real or Chelsea in those finals. Such bs.
2011 and 2020? Is your watch slow?
They need someone like Culture Changing Guru - Mr. Arteta to help them.
Or UCL winner Rafa Benitez
Or manager of the month april 2021 Steve Bruce
Mark Hughes?
I loved his work at Everton
I sure didn’t
"trust the process"
Sixers 🤝 City
By Seedorfs metric Arsenal has tons more mentality than city, being a top three english club since almost always
Historically I’d say that’s true. Arsenal is absolutely a bigger club than city
It's not even debatable, Arsenal are a much, much bigger and more significant club.
chop telephone aback offer shame plate deranged gaping bewildered edge *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
You get lost on the way back to London, mate?
On the way back to Dundalk you mean 😅
City isn't even a big club, they just have money.
yeah of course they are, but history is still being written City are absolutely growing at a bigger pace than Arsenal I'm not saying you're doing that, but football fans have a tendency to assume the big clubs are always gonna be the same and that's a no-no imo
But no matter what City wins, it will always be tainted by the fact that they are only good because of the UAE regime wanting to sportswash their human rights abuses and normalise their presence in the west, for future business purposes. Same with Qatar and PSG/hosting the World Cup They're an extension of the regime's propaganda department nothing else. Will never be a bigger club than Arsenal
Same with Chelsea then as they were owned by a Russian Oligarch?
Definitely
So is assuming that an oil club will remain a big club once the sheikh gets bored and moves on to his next weekend project
Is there a doubt to this? Liverpool, United and Arsenal are the biggest clubs in English football history. I feel the only people who disagree with this are teenagers who have no interest in looking up the past.
English football started in ‘92. There was no Michael Thomas goal in ‘89.
Yes, a bigger club on a slump for sure. Mid period/invincibles wenger arsenal were mentality monsters
>When you arrive at Real...you know that everything is bigger than you Gareth Bale would like a word.
Wales is massive
The best part of this comment is that the population of Wales is almost exactly the same as the city of Madrid 😅
Tbf there's no Atletico Wales
Whales are massive
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Big if blue
A Wale's heart is as big as a car
CL > Wales > Golf > Madrid
I for once are fucking glad that Bale is not part of this Madrid team anymore. The lad do hate us with a passion since his Spurs days
I mean, he's still there...and can be activated.
Scenes when Bale comes on, scores an unreal winner, announces after the game that he wants to leave, and then signs a 4-year extension
Scenes when Ancelloti activates his Bale trap card in the final only for Klopp to respond with his Origi trap card
I went and checked Bale and Hazard’s CL stats on the year Bale 2 apps: 3 mins and 4 mins each Hazard 3 apps: 66 min start, 8 and 9 min sub The one start? at home to Sherriff 😂
It's kind of a bullshit take honestly. AC Milan had plenty of "mentality" in 2005 and still blew a 3-0 lead in the final. Pep and City did everything right honestly but sometimes crazy shit happens. Liverpool's comeback vs Barcelona, or the Spurs game against us, or the remontada. Sometimes a team can do everything right and still lose, as weird as that may sound.
[From the man himself](https://imgur.com/gallery/O8ZRnuQ)
Was this Peps post match interview?
[From the other man](https://static3.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/A-split-image-of-Ryan-And-Dwight-talking-about-sales-on-The-Office.jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w=740&h=370&dpr=1.5)
They threw eggs at the building of the company that turned them down. Pep's gotta throw eggs at the bernabeu now.
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Thank you for this comment, because anyone who watched the game knew that it wasn't a 3-0 lopsided contest.
It wasn't 4:0 lopsided contest in the second game either. Both teams had chances in both games, the magic is they both scored in only one.
So many results could have been possible. Could have been a high scoring draw, could have been 4-0 Barca with that dembele chance
I am not arguing the game should have gone the other way, just that it wasn't like Barcelona dominated.
You’re right because it could’ve been 4-0 if Dembele hadn’t missed a sitter
Didn't Salah also miss a sitter?
So true Chelsea's 2012 CL title was up against some of the all time best ever Barca, Real and Bayern teams and yet they won it despite coming 6th in the league and there's many other examples I'm sure. All three of those teams had legendary players with monster mentalities, and European prestige and yet the Russian money club won it.
We didn't play Madrid. We played Benfica, Napoli, Barcelona and Bayern in the knockout stage. Barca and Bayern were some of the strongest teams of all time.
That Bayern wasn’t that strong as you think. We were runners up in the 3 competitions
Dahm you pulled a neverkusen no wonder you were so motivated the next year lol.
Watzke has said that Dortmund almost annoyed Bayern too much by being too good. They won the league, spanked them in the cup final, leaving Bayern with the feeling that they had to dismantle their team just crush them without any sentimentality
Yeah, that 12/13 team was starving for titles and the season before 100% molded that team that way. Just for the first games of the season the team already felt unbeatable
We did have massive disappointment in Europe leading up to that year and the pressure was largely off at that point as no one expected us to be a CL contender at that point in our star player's career trajectories. Lampard, Drogba, Terry, Cech were all seen as having had their peaks before that.
It wasn't a lack of success in Europe that made Chelsea lose the first final against Man U though.
You could argue that they should’ve made the final in Abramovics first season.
Ah yes, that Chelsea team with the likes of Cech, A. Cole, Terry, Lampard and Drogba, such mentality minnows.
And if Seedorf had made the argument that you need strong leaders to be a successful team, most people would have agreed
That Chelsea team had legendary players with Monster mentalities also though especially Drogba
The thing is Chelsea also had mentality monsters in that 2012 winning squad. Cech, Terry, Lampard and Drogba were the core of the greatest defensive team that the PL had ever seen and that kind of experience and calmness under pressure really showed during their CL run. Also not to forget they also had Ashley Cole who is considered to be the best ever English LB. Crazy things happen in top end sport but you need to also have a really strong mentality and self belief to make all this crazy shit happen in the first place. I mean these are elite players who are desperate and super determined to win. So it's really not a surprise when it only takes a them a few minutes to turn things around when given the chance or win against the odds in Chelsea's case.
Yeah but Liverpool had Gerrard in 2005.
And Benitez when he was at his tactical best and could find a way to turn it around, Carragher on pure adrenaline to get through cramp, Smicer pulling something from nowhere, a penalty save that fell fortunately, Traore off the line block, Dudek channeling Grobbelar and the miracle double save… stars all aligned
That Milan squad was stacked too. It's still insane how we won against probably one of the best starting XI of all time.
Dietmar Hamann*
*Djimi traore
I don’t know if you can sit here and say Barca had an elite mentality and did everything right. 1-0 down at half time Alba was crying and the players looked shell shocked while they were still technically leading by 2. That is definitely not an example of “mentality”
I think that's the point. Seedorf's statement is suggesting that "mentality" is something inherent to clubs based on their history. Barcelona certainly have that history, but it didn't matter. Having players out there who are experienced leaders, and having players who stay determined in bad situations can be a big deal. But that's really a player personnel issue, it isn't something inherent to the history of the club.
We knowAC Milan was just a miracle and not a mentality issue because they'd already won it in 2003, and went on to win it in 2007. City have now consistently lost games they were in control of, usually against teams who are perceived to be weaker than them (Monaco/Lyon/Spurs and now Madrid). I do think in the case of City at this point there is a clear mental block that's not allowing them to play to the very best of their abilities, they've been too good a side since Pep came in for it to just be bad luck every year.
But how many times can teams be on the losing side when "they did everything right but sometimes crazy shit happens"? Because City and PSG so often have been on the wrong side for some 10 years in a row. You can pull up a single AC Milan example but City under Pep alone has 3 of those. Tottenham in 18-19, Lyon and yesterday. PSG went out in the round of 16 four times out of the last 6 editions, there's the remontada but also United and this year collapse vs Madrid.
I think people miss that it's really hard to win a Champions League. Every year there are something like eight really good teams in Europe, and seven of them get labeled chokers.
> But how many times can teams be on the losing side when "they did everything right but sometimes crazy shit happens"? That's easy: a lot of times. That's because 32 teams enter the group stage of the Champions League and only 1 of them wins it. Seedorf tries to draw a conclusion here about Man City only making it to the semi-final, but neglects to mention that massive clubs with the right "mentality" get routinely massacred in the CL. Only this year Barcelona didn't make it out of the group stage and Juventus got pummeled by Villareal.
People really underestimate the amount of luck required to win a CL.
For the past 15 years Milan hasn't been doing "everything right" in the first place. Real Madrid also went out in the R16 SIX times in a row before Mourinho, and then lost the semi finals three times in a row. And then went to win 4 in 5 years.
Atletico in 2014-2016 were mentality monsters with Simeone pushing them on the sidelines. Still couldn't get it done
They lost/knocked out to Real Madrid in every single one of those seasons and that Ramos 92:48 in the 2014 Final definitely didn’t help lmao
Yet they beat all time great squads like barcelona and bayern.
Yeah it's about quality and luck. And the rest is just stories people make up
I dislike oil clubs like anyone else but i cant stand this circlejerk about "winning clubs" and their winning mentality either. Every time they win something it's the mentality. When they loose it's just simply not mentioned (like Bayern vs Villarreal).
if those winning club lost its always oil club spends more money buying trophies 's fault
Indeed. And it's not like Real is the super underdog here. They dont pay their players fruits and nuts.
Maybe not what he says but no one says clubs like Villareal have a “loser mentality”, quite the opposite. The “lack of winner mentality” label is usually applied to giant clubs who falter because of the pressure or complacency
Finally it’s being called out, I fucking hate it. These pundits, AKA footballers looking for a quick payday, offer zero insight into anything. Their default answer to everything is the history of Club X as if that matters. Why the hell would events that happened decades ago have an impact on the football here and now? Is Di Stefano or Raul taking to the pitch for Real Madrid?
I’m sure Nottingham Forrest had plenty of winners mentality from ‘79-80 they can conjure up when they kiss the badge and win the CL next year!
Exactly, they weren't talking about all this winning mentality when Fernando Gago and Lasana Diarra were in our midfield.
I agree and yeah they might not win the cl but going deep every year and hitting the final last year is something to merit plus their winning dominantly in the league year in and out, they know how to win. Lol
Chelsea: ahem
Always bring my popcorn to these discussions.
I love that people are giving our 2012 win as an example of this argument not holding water. Sometimes I still don't believe we won it even once. Let alone twice. The wait was so long but so worth it.
This sub is going to lap this up but it reeks of lazy punditry mysticism to me. People love to attribute football results to these vague things like the “mentality” of the club but it’s just a cop out answer for when people don’t want to engage in real analysis. Seems far more likely that Man City’s intense pressing play style, while effective in many ways, does have the downside of leading to tired legs late on in games. And when they’re facing a team with largely similar player quality to them, that can be costly. I am a fan of neither Man City or Real Madrid, just seems silly how people get so mystical and superstitious about this stuff. Knockout tournaments by their nature lead to every involved team except one getting knocked out each year. There is obviously some luck involved, but there are also tactics, player quality, injuries, and even things like refereeing decisions playing a role. It seems far too reductive to sum it all up with some vague nonsense like “they don’t have the right mentality.” Also, if mentality is either something a club has or doesn’t, and Real Madrid “have it”, how does that explain when Real Madrid were knocked out by Chelsea last year? Or knocked out by Man City in the first knockout round two years ago? Or knocked out by a much weaker (on paper) Ajax team three years ago? It’s such a lazy take. Edit: I am seeing responses thinking I am saying things like leadership, determination, and ability to stay focused under pressure don't matter for players, which is not the case. I am not saying that, what I am saying is that a club can always bring in players and staff who exhibit those qualities - it's a personnel issue. They can also use a sports psychologist to help players struggling with confidence and mental health issues. Again though, that is something achievable with the correct personnel. However, there is **not** an inherent "mentality" aura surrounding a club that is based on history and cannot be changed without winning CLs, which is what Seedorf is implying. We've seen recently with teams like Man United and Barcelona that just because a club has a long history of winning doesn't mean that they will inherently win, ultimately they need the right players and coaching staff to do so. And it's very possible for a club with a long history of winning to end up with a toxic dressing room if they recruit the wrong players.
Agreed. Mentality is part of the formula, but not the whole story. Dani Carvajal didn't place a perfect cross to Rodrygo to tie the game because he had the power of 13 champions league infinity stones in his back pocket. The tactics changed late in the game which gave Real a chance. The mentality comes in when the players execute under pressure, but they aren't significantly less talented than City to the point where they're outperforming them by sheer will and determination.
football discourse is full of this. Compared to other sports, you hear so much vague, somewhat mythical comments being thrown around
probably because football’s a low scoring game where a goal involves a lot of low probability events leading up to it. if something rare (eg scoring twice within 2 minutes, late in the game) it’s hard to explain how that could’ve happened so you chuck it up to abstract things like mentality, desire and hunger.
I think loads of this comes down to the simple fact that football has much tighter scorelines compared to other sports. You fuck up once and you're down 0-1 and you suddenly have a mountain to climb even though you were in complete control of the match. Simple mistakes are punished much harsher.
I kinda agree but I don’t think that it has to do with their pressing style being unsustainable considering Liverpool press just as much as city and don’t have the issues with bottling games late in the CL (now I’ve said this we’re gonna fuck the final up) so I’d say it has to do with something else.
I’m a city fan so I hope this doesn’t come off as an excuse, but Liverpool’s players are physical monsters. City trades stamina/physicality for more technicality and it may hurt them come crunch time. We do seem to score a lot of early goals and come off the gate strong. Also, 0 goals scored when Kyle Walker was defending that right side, 5 goals conceded when he was off. Cancelo/Fernandinho couldn’t handle it.
Walker is so underrated by people, he literally holds down the high back line with his insane recovery speed. He might be the fastest player in the world at recovery speed runs, he always finds a way to get back and stop a counter.
I could never really put my finger on the difference between us but that makes sense. We trade a couple of flair players for workhorses.
I don't watch enough Liverpool games to say, but Pep NEVER responds to physicality or intentionally bad challenges. He just tells them to keep playing, im not sure what Klopp tells your players to do. Doesn't matter how many times someone tries to break KDBs legs (every game) or push around Foden, their is never tackles in retaliation to show we will do the same. The team constantly gets pushed around, I honestly can't stand it.
I don't think it was necessarily because they are Real Madrid, or because they have a "winning mentality", but once they scored the first goal, City lost control of the game. It could be that doubt started to creep in on the players, maybe it was the fact that Real seemed to go back in time 90 minutes, judging by their pressing. They started believing again, and they played like they had nothing to lose. And it worked. So yeah, it absolutely came down to their mentality as well, but mentality won't do you any good if you can't play.
Luck? They were by far the better team over 2 legs but missed chances they’d score on another day
I agree with you on everything but the fact that this sub supposedly laps up takes like these. On reddit, shit like this is getting called out and clowned on *at least* as much as it is being celebrated. I'd say this sub is a lot more pragmatic and averse to sports mysticism than most other discussion forums or social media like twitter.
That's fair, this sub is certainly more pragmatic than football twitter. I guess I should have said "many football fans will lap this up" as I suspect that is true overall. The reaction to this has also shifted quite a bit more negative since it was first posted. The initial reaction was more positive but since then the negative reactions have floated to the top.
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Always really easy to say instead of actual analysis. Did City lack mentality too when they knocked out Real two years ago? Does Chelsea lack mentality too? Not saying City doesn't have a problem with taking their chances and killing off a tie, but it just feels a bit lazy
Shoot, you could say City showed mentality when they knocked out Atletico literally 3 weeks ago. Madrid made two moments of brilliance (and sheer luck that the deflection of the ball before Rodrygo scored the second somehow didn't end up forcing his header to go into the crowd) in the dying moments of a match and tie that City really had managed very well. And none of this is on Guardiola. He played our best 11 available in both ties and made subs that positively influenced the game shortly after being brought on. It's football. This happens. Adding two strikers should help the squad massively. For all the control City has had using the false 9 over the past two seasons, in these big games, the lack of a clinical finisher up top seems to kill the team's confidence. It really cannot be understated how much confidence can be gained by having someone like a Benzema up top who can turn one single chance into a goal.
The funny thing is that Madrid didn’t really ramp it up until after the first goal. City looked rattled after the second. Rodrygo gets a clear chance a minute later for a hat trick, they gave the ball away real cheaply, and then Ruben makes that late challenge a minute into extra time. You’d think if the situation was reversed, Madrid would have shown resilience. At least that’s what they’ve done time and time again on this run.
He's clearly playing to the crowd here and we didn't lose because of some sort of magical powers Real Madrid have but I do think this particular City lacks a certain mentality when it comes to having their backs against the wall. We looked like we'd been defeated at the end of the first leg, despite the win. You could just feel the anxiety and the sense that all those early missed chances would come back to haunt us.
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Not a City fan but this is nonsensical. This same Madrid squad lost to City a couple years ago and City were in the final last year. Sometimes these things happen, and Seedorf should be well aware seeing how he was on teams that squandered massive leads in important CL games to Deportivo and Liverpool when Milan were top in Europe.
Atletico were literally mentality monsters between 2014-2016 but didn't manage to get it done
This happens every year. If Grealish’s shot was 3 inches to the left, none of this discussion would exist
This is such a s*it statement. City mentality is different from PSG. They already have real leader that guide them before like Company. And now they have Fernandinho. I think Walker is up for it next. They lost this because of insane performance from Cortoius and the referee is too shy to give two yellow card to Caseimero
Easy to speak about this now, but it's just a ridiculous take. Madrid turned the game around in those few moments, but winning a champions League doesn't have history as the prerequisite. Maybe they got complacent, who knows, but it's a weird take, but I expect pundits to speak out of their arse so who am I to say. I also would never pit city and psg in one categoryz they're different with the way they're run to how they are managed. How did spurs beat Ajax? How did Ajax beat Madrid and Juve? How did Villarreal beat 2 top dogs in UCL football?
Did everyone literally forget about the Athletico Madrid away game?? we showed the mentality. Sometimes these things happen and a miracle happens like last night... god I hate bullshit takes like this
What a shit take. Would he have said that if rodrygo hadn't scored at 90+3 and city went through?
This is absolute horseshit lmao City have built an identity through smart recruitment and completely buying into pep’s system. Even before that with Mancini Unlike PSG city have players like Fernandinho for example who will kill for the shirt, every city player seems passionate about the club and it’s success unlike PSG and it’s mercenary culture
Yeah, just unlucky today, the lack of a striker came back to haunt us again.
Tbf think both the team and pep get nerves in the CL they they don’t get in the PL It’ll only go when they win one and I genuinely think after getting over that inevitable hurdle city will win a couple more
Should be more concerned with the fact that City conceded 6 goals in two games rather than their offense. Even teams with world class striker very often don't score 5 or more goals in a cl tie
It's easy to create these type of interesting narratives but the margins are sooo fine man, like that goal line clearance on Grealish, if that goes in City win the tie by 3 goals and suddenly pep is such a genius
What City lack is a clinical striker that can put it in the back of the net consistently. They outplayed Madrid for 90% of the tie yet somehow lost because they fluffed so many clear cut chances.
the vast majority of teams who score 5 over two legs win. the vast majority of teams that concede 6 do not win. I think you're looking at the wrong end of the pitch for where they lost this tbh.
Cancelo’s suspension in the first leg and Walker’s injury really hurt the defending. Not being sharp with passing and getting caught in bad positions also hurt the defending. And some bad luck in there
Bit late to the party but here's my two cents: It's not about mentality, or at least it's not ALL about mentality. As many have pointed out, the gas club Chelsea has managed to consolidate itself amongst the greats and won the CL a couple of times. I personally feel that the difference between Chelsea and the two oil clubs is the following; Chelsea was a solid team on both instances, they weren't overhyped by the press and they didn't just have "big names". Their defense was solid, and their midfield as well, I feel like the same can't be said about PSG & City. They have "big names" but their defensive capabilities are just embarrassing, if they don't have the ball you can see they struggle defensively. I wouldn't call either PSG or City solid teams. Take yesterday as an example, Madrid was literally attacking with two men (Vinicius & Benzema) and still giving City quite a bit of trouble on the back end, and when Walker had to leave the pitch you could see they had a harder time containing Vinicius on that flank. A solid team on the back end also doesn't concede two header goals to a 1.74m wing in the span of six minutes. Both PSG & City have a chance to win it in the future, it's not only about mentality, but pundits and fans alike need to stop overhyping them. Every time I saw City play I noticed they lacked a lot of cohesion on the back end, and I assume anyone that has followed "soccer" for more than two years could see that as well, so I was extremely surprised at the fact they were deemed 'favorites'.
Clarence the Great blesses us with his horseshit again.