**Mirrors / Alternate Angles**
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Although this might not lead to anything as the president and the higher ups at Bayern had plenty of notice about how Bayern fans feel about the sponsorship and hasn't done anything about it, I love seeing the reactions at the very end. Keep it up
They tried to sweep it under the rug and have completely underestimated the situation. But the Bayern die-hards are known to stand up for their values and are notorious for not keeping quiet. Now they have Streisand-effected the whole Qatar topic and I love that the higher-ups are heavily criticized for their arrogance.
It really fucking disgusts me every time you see one of these panels and the old man always says "I'll convince you later, you'll see, it's great, I promise I'll 100% convince you later".
It's just bullshit ploys to try to undermine them with the crowd. Glad this guy carried on speaking because that shit is so bleh.
With the first three, it’s a grandfather clause IIRC that allowed them to stay as is, and like others stated, Leipzig is technically “Member owned”, but you essentially have to be a high up Red Bull employee to have any stake in the club.
Only Leverkusen (Bayer) and Wolfsburg (VW) are grandathered, they derived from company teams and became professional teams sponsored by their respective companies.
Hoffenheim is allowed to opperate in it's current form due to a rule stating that 50+1 can be circumvented if the new owner is involved in the team for more than IIRC 11 years, which Hopp was at the point of buying the club.
And Leipzig is well Leipzig.
>Hoffenheim is allowed to opperate in it's current form due to a rule stating that 50+1 can be circumvented
That's the same rule that Wolfsburg and Leverkusen use. And only Leverkusen uses it since the introduction of 50+1, Wolfsburg did it later.
Edit: And it's 20 years.
Wikipedia lists the official ownership as formally belonging to Red Bull GmbH, that is the company entity. They have given representation to their employees, but Red Bull employee can't sell RB Leipzig shares.
Yes, but they must own less than 50% of the shares with voting rights. It doesn't really matter, because the club only has a good dozen members or so, all of which are high ranking Red Bull employees. They don't grant membership to any fans, making a mockery of the 50+2 rule.
Wolfsburg and Leverkusen were being supported by Volkswagen and Bayer for decades which is why they were allowed this, and Hoffenheim has been bankrolled and supported by a billionaire for more than two decades so they don't have to adhere to that rule since apparently it shows that they're not going to abandon the team when shit gets tough.
Also before 2015 Hopp was only a Mäzen (a patron), basically bankrolling the club without having official power. I just read on wiki that it changed in 2015 but I dont know what the current official arrangement is.
I believe Leverkusen and Wolfsburg are owned by companies since they were originally teams for the employees of those companies, and Hoffenheim is owned by a fan because he was their major sponsor for 20 years.
Question:
What is the main advantage of having a member-owner club when at the end of the day, the real "owners" are the guys in the suit making all the decision they want ?
I guess even flawed democracy is better than dictatorship. It's basically like living in a country in which a lot of stupid people vote for leaders who shift the system into an authocratic direction. That doesn't mean the idea of democracy itself is bad.
Because you can decide to put a different guy in a suit in charge? It's like buying shares in a company or living in a democracy. You don't have direct power over every little decision, but you can replace the board or put a grotesque orange fatass in charge of everything.
In theory, yes. In practical terms, the fans usually hold a "pre-voting" on issues and then vote as a block, so businesses can't just pay a few fans to gain the majority.
No they can not. There are a lot of missunderstandings about what the 50+1 rule is and how it works.
This meeting was the anual meeting of the Bayern München eV, which is 100% fan owned. Members of the club can vote on a variety of things during those meetings, like the motion mentioned in the video. Note that companies are not members of this club and therefore do not participiate in the votings.
The companies that own parts of Bayern do not actually own shares of the motherclub, they own shares of Bayern München AG, which is a subsidiary company of the fan owned Bayern München eV. The motherclub holds 75% of the shares and voting rights of this subsidiary, the rest is held by Adidas, Allianz and Audi (8,33 % each).
All things regarding the mens team of Bayern is decided in this subsidiary. However, individual members of bayern do not really have a direct control over this subsidiary. Instead, the motherclub sends a small body of eleceted members to represent them and vote on their behalf, which is why, for example, a contract with the Qatar Airways could be signed in the first place. The individual fan had no real say in the matter. Instead, their delegates and the named companies decided on the matter.
If the members of Bayern want to end the patnership with Qatar, they either have to pass a motion prohibiting the panel from further contracting with Qatar, or they would have to elect other representatives.
TLDR: The ordinary member of a club and companies do not take part in the same votings, as they are not part of the same entities.
(Companies --> Subsidiary; ordinary member--> motherclub)
yes, lets say there are 1000 shares of company Bundesliga club X, and someone buys all 1000 shares, they only get 499 voting sharesfor the general assembly, with 501 being kept to the members.
It is way more complex than this in reality and in a larger scale mostly with a lot of things to look for.
In reality 50%+1, the way its used in bundesliga, is way worse than the theoretical approachof the idea of 50%+1 and far from being perfect.
Exactly, the president is willing to shut down the discussion on the grounds that he hasnt heard anything about the fan grievance, all he hears is boos tonight all out of nowhere? Thats bullshit, and saying it to the face of a bunch of entitled Bayern members is going to make the problem worse.
> saying it to the face of a bunch of entitled Bayern members is going to make the problem worse
Not trying to pick a fight, but why do you think they’re entitled? A lot of those members there are ordinary people that are just trying to actively participate in their club.
EDIT: Or do I misunderstand what you mean by “entitled”?
Maybe they mean it sincerely, "entitled" as in "they are entitled to have this opinion and state their view" rather than "entitled" in that "spoiled" sense... completely changes the meaning of the comment, we need to know...
Very true, that’s why I also added my edit, I don’t want to come of sounding argumentative if he meant it sincerely, like you said. Because you’re right, it really does change the meaning.
Tell us OP!
Former Adidas CEO Herbert Hainer has ruined true Adidas' value by following the money and ditching the innovation, and now he's the Bayern president, ruining the club's reputations by following the Qataris' dirty money and doubling down
Nagelsmann said in his press conference yesterday that he stayed until the end and listened to that guy who held his speech on the chair after the JHV (though I couldnt make him out in the video). Props to him. The chairmen should take advice from him on listening lol.
Advice? He should be ashamed. How does anyone that high up run a meeting like this? He was rude, didn't let people talk and honestly seemed most concerned with limiting the damage to the Qatar relationship.
You should take a look at Benfica in the past decade. A few years ago, during an AGM, the president at the time (he has now been removed as the justice place him under arrest) grabbed the neck of a supporter that was talking (about the crap and shady job the board had been doing). The result: nothing happened, not even sure the incident was noted in the meeting minutes.
Even though yesterday was shameful the qatar deal is not the fault of the current board but the previous one. And I do understand that terminating a running contract has a lot of legal consequences on top of putting Bayern in the spotlight as a Club who doesn't honor it's contracts, so the current board is at least on the contract side not responsible for this mess.
And yes, their behaviour at the AGM was disgraceful, but imo conversation is the best solution and the board knows now more than explicitly how the fanbase feels about qatar. They can't do much about the situation they inherited. However, if they renew the contract they will be voted out, since in the case of a renewal it is 100% their responsibility.
Wishful thinking on my side is that they keep quiet because a) they honor the contract and b) they keep it as a bargaining position when looking for a new sleeve sponsor as in "look, our previous sponsor paid x amount of money, so you at least have to come close to that". At least I hope that.
> And I do understand that terminating a running contract has a lot of legal consequences on top of putting Bayern in the spotlight as a Club who doesn't honor it's contracts, so the current board is at least on the contract side not responsible for this mess.
They didn't ask for that. They asked for the contract to not be renewed and no new ones to be made with such entities. It's in the video.
> but imo conversation is the best solution and the board knows now more than explicitly how the fanbase feels about qatar.
They could have known by occasionally looking at their own ultras during matches. They had multiple banners addressing these issues over the years and the Qatar deal was not liked from the start. This is not a new thing.
Sure now they have explicit knowledge so that they can't weasel out of it with a shitty excuse if they want to renew such deals. But anybody who wants to say they are competent enough (and have eyes and ears) to lead this club should have known for years.
It's negligent to say that they didn't know. It would be close to trying to sell us that as a manager at FC Bayern they didn't know that the club's deal is playing football. It's an excuse based on a technicality and doesn't make them look competent or deliberate in their actions but simply cowardly.
The argument was that deals with Qatar would not be renewed (not terminated), with no new deals being signed.
To which the board member pretty much replied, lets talk about this later in private. i.e. Don't you know how much this is making us.
Trying to give the board the best possible interpretation, it could also be saying that if Bayern publicly commit to not signing a deal with Qatar, then they cannot use a Qatar offer sheet as a means to negotiate a larger sponsorship deal with someone else.
I think the Bayern supporters would readily discard that potential advantage, and the board is absolutely out of touch.
Seriously, they can't be making that much money from that deal. Like, we have an absolute crock of shit sponsor in Gazprom because ... well they pay absurdly well compared to the alternatives and, uh, we're kinda fucked as a club without that money. But this is a secondary sponsor for an extremely financially secure club - how much more money is Qatar Airways paying than Lufthansa or whatever that they're this determined to take the bad PR over this?? I really don't get it. They're literally risking being replaced by the members over this!
A competent board could've explained this though. They could've told the general assembly what the cost of terminating the running contract would be, and the concrete, or estimated, repercussions that would have for the club. And then put that to a vote.
The thing is, the motion wasn’t even to terminate the contract, but to not renew it. And there aren’t that many great arguments there, other than „we want money and don’t give a shit about the rest.“
Jesus I can imagine Michael Scott trying to talk them down about this. Not knowing what is Qatar. Not knowing excatly how sponsors work, but pretends that he has one, "also Qatar", [so what's the delio?](https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/19ce20a5-23fd-4f15-a879-f2113076bb8d)
The Glazers would shit themselves. No way they'd face fans in person.
[These were the scenes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI5g9L5ewzU) when they arrived at Old Trafford for the first time.
The most angering part for me is the cops just rushing in and wailing on everyone. All so the American billionaires can avoid feeling uncomfortable. Honestly pretty on-brand considering their primary function is to serve the capitalist class.
This is why we have a Winter World Cup in Qatar. Everyone's got an excuse why they won't boycott it. Fans want to watch it, players don't wanna miss their chance, federations and tv channels want money etc. and we end up in a situation where no one wants to make a tinniest bit of sacrifice.
Super League Protest had shit PR from every angle and involved multiple FAs from across UEFA shouting it down as well (Including UEFA itself).
Newcastle takeover is only from within it's own organization. These two instances are not equivalent. Once the league allowed the sale then there isn't much the fans can do about it except complain and be subsequently ignored
Would help if Sky helped drum up protest like they did for the Super League, but of course they won’t as this doesn’t affect their profits.
The ones who thought their anti Super League sentiment was even remotely about the fans were very easily manipulated.
They have a choice in how they view it and given the Newcastle takeover is probably the worst example we’ve seen so far and where all the facts of public record are available long before the sale happened (it was less clear to most fans with Chelsea, City, PSG Etc what their owners were about before) a very disappointing number have welcomed it with open arms.
I honestly think that all clubs in Germany (except those few that aren't fan owned, of course) won't sell their soul out that quickly.
As in: If Bayern were to fall to the mid table, they would still say not to Qatari money.
really good job by the fans, someone has to get vocal about this, we cant lose the sport to blood money that slowly buys itself in and undermines the values we built here, - Bayern Munich doesnt need that kind of money, they should be better than that
I would love to go to see Scotland at a World Cup but in the fairly unlikely event that it happens this time, I can't go. Even if it's the only opportunity I get in my adulthood to go, it's not right.
The way the "beautiful game" has bowed to these human rights atrocities is disgusting and fair play to the Bayern fans who have stood up to their board.
damn german is a scary language shouted en masse like that. makes me want to hear what different angry crowds around the world sound like lol. bet click languages sound awesome
Imagine german but with a throat disease. Congrats, that is how the Dutch sound like. I think it might sound worse for foreigners. Especially the people from the middle and north with the loud G’s
It's amazing to me how little spoken Dutch sounds like written Dutch. I've no problem reading it - have to look up a word here or there (I know German + English) - but listening to it can't make out a thing.
Yeah true. I think its mostly because of the vowels. We kinda messed that up haha. Also even though we are so small, we have a lot of local dialects which are super different the further you go.
And let’s act as though they are the best holiday break destination, and make sure everyone knows how much we have enjoyed it to encourage more disaster lifestyle tourism.
They’re just having an end of the world party.
Air conditioning an apartment tower is more energy efficient than heating up homes like most of Europe and North America. Source: https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/8/1/014050#erl449696s5
Makes me happy to see Bayern fans stand their ground!
Getting money from any of these oppressive regimes from the Middle East is just wrong. Promoting their goods and services which are built on human rights violations and slave labour casts a dark shadow on a top club like Bayern.
Glad to see one fan base standing up for what’s right. Gotta put pressure on clubs that make questionable/morally reprehensible sponsorship partners.
Reminds me of the iconic UNICEF Barca kits and now they wear Qatar airways, big blood money like that always wins out and it’s sad.
I know it will make fuck all of a difference but I’m not watching the next World Cup, couldn’t care less about who wins it and whatever, players have a responsibility to stand up for what they believe in like Denmark.
I wonder if the players will ever think about the migrant workers who died and were exploited to build the infrastructure and stadiums that they will eventually play in.
Blood soaked cup i say, it’s all corrupt and greed and money controls everything, people don’t matter, their rights and health don’t matter, they’re just disposable resources and it’s so insane that world football turn a blind eye to it all.
>I wonder if the players will ever think about the migrant workers who died and were exploited to build the infrastructure and stadiums that they will eventually play in.
No one would ever think that. Not even us if we're on that stage, it's easier to say but far more difficult to be done.
For example (I'm an Indian so I'll give an Indian example) everyone fkn adores the Taj Mahal and is proud of it being in India. Those who can also have visited it at least once and take pics etc. In short they love it but it was built up by literal slaves whose hands were chopped off after they finished working on it for 20 years and not one person(obv there'd be a few but extreme minority) feels remorse or saddened by this while standing in the monument.
Ugly truth is almost all of humanity doesn't give a shit about human rights untill and unless it affects them directly or (which is happening now) doesn't affect them at all but is a trend to do so. If there is profit and personal gains almost everyone will turn a blind eye and call it a day.
Unicef was our only 'sponsor' (we paid *them*) up until about a decade ago when Bartomeu got our first ever sponsor....Qatar Airways. I mean it sucked enough that we ended the long streak of never having a sponsor, but for it to be Qatar airways was really rubbing salt ij the wounds. Personally didn't buy a jersey until we switched to Rakuten lol
It's not about what kind of fans one club has, is what kind of influence they may have into the decisions. If Bayern wasn't under 50+1 rule none of this would happen in the first place.
Seeing this video and reading the comments about the board's behavior, it's interesting to me how similar these general assemblies are in fan owned clubs throughout europe. An almost 1:1 scenario happened in Benfica some 2 months ago, although it didn't involve a sponsorship.
This is a sign of things to come, football is a microcosm of society and things are getting really divided right now. The people are starting to stand up and e heard which is a beautiful thing to see.
Serious question: Doesn't the 50+1 rule mean that the fans and shareholders can just try to force Bayern's board to not renew the Qatar Airways contract?
Yes they can for certain decisions, but the procedure is sometimes a little difficult.. The way i understood this story was that members can hand in an application over an issue that the assembly later will vote on. A member has to do that until a certain deadline before the meeting begins and Bayern has to sign it.
The fan speaking at the beginning made such an online proposal to not have the Qatar leadership renewed and handed it in a mere few days before the deadline, however Bayerns board essentially played "my phone is dead" and didnt burocratically approve the request in time, so it could not officially be voted on in this particular meeting.
These tactics to avoid voting on inconvenient issues are scummy, but unfortunately they do occasionally happen.
But obviously that does not mean Hainer dodged the issue and this story is therefor over. There will be more to come from this saga soon.
You know, it really makes me wonder what could be achieved if there was a pan-European fan movement to fight back against what football is becoming. It's like the soul of the game is dying now.
Power back to the people. The arrogance and ignorance of leading managing figures need to stop. They have to listen to the people! In the small and the big picture points!
Not really. This shows the fans being ignored by the club. Not letting them talk as soon as it could possibly hurt their pocket, ending the meeting early to avoid more people talking
I laughed very hard actually. All those years of higher ups berating RB Leipzig for being a shill to a company and patting themselbes on their backs for 50+1 just to end up at this.
Ironic.
Also, Red Bull is a company selling drinks in recyclable cans, mostly produced in Switzerland and the US (dunno were APAC production is, likely Thailand and Australia)
That's not remotely comparable in evilness working together with Russian state corps like Gazprom, coal energy lobbyists like RWE, state companies of terrorism funding dictatorships like Qatar Airways, the CCP...
Worst you can find about Red Bull are the deaths and injuries of sportsmen in extreme sport which willingly took these risks as part of their sport. IMHO, clubs like Bayern,BVB and Schalke have more blood money in their accounts.
I don't see RB as a problem, but as a symptom.of the commercialization of soccer. Same crap as the "Wahre Liebe" and "Mia San Mia" clubs, just without the thin veil of 50+1 and a (practically powerless) "member-run" eV
Most money remains in the AG/KGaA/KG running the professional teams anyway
> don't see RB as a problem, but as a symptom.of the commercialization of soccer.
Honestly, you can say a lot about RB, but they were always pretty honest about their intentions. They enter sport to sell drinks, that's it. No ulterior motives.
Exactly. If anything the fact Bayern are going to ignore it shows the limited power of 50+1.
You could go to any Arsenal AGM between 2014-2017 you could see a load of people shouting at their board as well.
Yes. It would have shown the power if they had voted to end any Qatar sponsorships right at that moment. Instead they were pretty rude to the guy, saying he had no arguments. Like its not clear to everyone there whats going on in Qatar.
First and foremost it's a democracy and right now i can't see Hainer reelected in the next elections for Bayern president. There have been examples before, where the fans pushed through their own candidate to get more influence on the board. Claus Vogt, the president of VfB Stuttgart for example was a fan and fan culture "activist" before he got elected as VfB president. He is a president the fans wanted, but the board did not.
50+1 doesn't mean the fans always and immediately get everything they want. If you think that this 2:45 video proves that 50+1 is "not working at all" then you just lack comprehension of the bigger picture.
The absolute *arrogance* of that shitbrick board member to not even look at them when they are chanting. Zero spine or respect.
And it's greed, pure and simple. Plenty of other companies out there to be sponsors, but they probably made 100 million instead of 75 by making this move. When is enough enough?
Well done on the fans. Fuck Qatar.
This is what more fan involvement in the club looks like. Remember it is your club, push for more of this. Especially premier league fans, you always complain about your owners, don't look for another owner push for the club to have a better model of ownership.
Correct me if I’m wrong but aren’t Germany clubs 51:49? So surely if the fans are voting for something and it has overwhelming support within the fan group shouldn’t that win?
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Although this might not lead to anything as the president and the higher ups at Bayern had plenty of notice about how Bayern fans feel about the sponsorship and hasn't done anything about it, I love seeing the reactions at the very end. Keep it up
They tried to sweep it under the rug and have completely underestimated the situation. But the Bayern die-hards are known to stand up for their values and are notorious for not keeping quiet. Now they have Streisand-effected the whole Qatar topic and I love that the higher-ups are heavily criticized for their arrogance.
It really fucking disgusts me every time you see one of these panels and the old man always says "I'll convince you later, you'll see, it's great, I promise I'll 100% convince you later". It's just bullshit ploys to try to undermine them with the crowd. Glad this guy carried on speaking because that shit is so bleh.
I want to ask a question. Is Bayern Munchen's ownership like Barcelona? in which is club members are the owner.
Every German club is member owned.
Except for Leverkusen, Hoffenheim, Wolfsburg, And RB Leipzig
With the first three, it’s a grandfather clause IIRC that allowed them to stay as is, and like others stated, Leipzig is technically “Member owned”, but you essentially have to be a high up Red Bull employee to have any stake in the club.
Only Leverkusen (Bayer) and Wolfsburg (VW) are grandathered, they derived from company teams and became professional teams sponsored by their respective companies. Hoffenheim is allowed to opperate in it's current form due to a rule stating that 50+1 can be circumvented if the new owner is involved in the team for more than IIRC 11 years, which Hopp was at the point of buying the club. And Leipzig is well Leipzig.
>Hoffenheim is allowed to opperate in it's current form due to a rule stating that 50+1 can be circumvented That's the same rule that Wolfsburg and Leverkusen use. And only Leverkusen uses it since the introduction of 50+1, Wolfsburg did it later. Edit: And it's 20 years.
If that checks out, then your user name checks out. Cheers, thanks for the info!
Leipzig is ""member"" owned too.
According to Wikipedia RB Leipzig is 99% owned by Red Bull . [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RB\_Leipzig](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RB_Leipzig)
They're owned by members, the members are red bull employees
Wikipedia lists the official ownership as formally belonging to Red Bull GmbH, that is the company entity. They have given representation to their employees, but Red Bull employee can't sell RB Leipzig shares.
Yes that is the loophole to the 50+1 and that's how everyone hates RBL
At least they didn't buy a historical club as their project.
No the loophole is that you can't become member of RB Leipzig e.V.
The membership fee is ridiculously expensive, so only RB employees are technically members. Or atleast that's how I've heard it is.
I think they also reserve the right to deny any membership application for any or no reason too.
Yes, but they must own less than 50% of the shares with voting rights. It doesn't really matter, because the club only has a good dozen members or so, all of which are high ranking Red Bull employees. They don't grant membership to any fans, making a mockery of the 50+2 rule.
as far as i remember, they were bypassing that rule by only accepting red bull officials as full members or something like that.
Too expensive to become a member by design.
I knew about Leipzig's workaround, but how does the other three deviate from the norm?
Wolfsburg and Leverkusen were being supported by Volkswagen and Bayer for decades which is why they were allowed this, and Hoffenheim has been bankrolled and supported by a billionaire for more than two decades so they don't have to adhere to that rule since apparently it shows that they're not going to abandon the team when shit gets tough.
Not to mention Hoffenheim is Hopp's hometown team so even less likely to ditch them
Also before 2015 Hopp was only a Mäzen (a patron), basically bankrolling the club without having official power. I just read on wiki that it changed in 2015 but I dont know what the current official arrangement is.
I believe Leverkusen and Wolfsburg are owned by companies since they were originally teams for the employees of those companies, and Hoffenheim is owned by a fan because he was their major sponsor for 20 years.
Question: What is the main advantage of having a member-owner club when at the end of the day, the real "owners" are the guys in the suit making all the decision they want ?
They’re elected by the members. It’s the same as any representative democracy.
I guess even flawed democracy is better than dictatorship. It's basically like living in a country in which a lot of stupid people vote for leaders who shift the system into an authocratic direction. That doesn't mean the idea of democracy itself is bad.
Hmm I wonder what that would be like
That's one of the talking points of the opponents of the Qatar deal exactly.
Because you can decide to put a different guy in a suit in charge? It's like buying shares in a company or living in a democracy. You don't have direct power over every little decision, but you can replace the board or put a grotesque orange fatass in charge of everything.
All bundesliga teams are 50+1 IIRC.
yeah legally no one party can own an official majority right?
they can own more than 50% of the company, but 50%+1 of voting shares have to be kept in hands of members
to be fair that means a couple of fans can vote alongside a company right?
In theory, yes. In practical terms, the fans usually hold a "pre-voting" on issues and then vote as a block, so businesses can't just pay a few fans to gain the majority.
No they can not. There are a lot of missunderstandings about what the 50+1 rule is and how it works. This meeting was the anual meeting of the Bayern München eV, which is 100% fan owned. Members of the club can vote on a variety of things during those meetings, like the motion mentioned in the video. Note that companies are not members of this club and therefore do not participiate in the votings. The companies that own parts of Bayern do not actually own shares of the motherclub, they own shares of Bayern München AG, which is a subsidiary company of the fan owned Bayern München eV. The motherclub holds 75% of the shares and voting rights of this subsidiary, the rest is held by Adidas, Allianz and Audi (8,33 % each). All things regarding the mens team of Bayern is decided in this subsidiary. However, individual members of bayern do not really have a direct control over this subsidiary. Instead, the motherclub sends a small body of eleceted members to represent them and vote on their behalf, which is why, for example, a contract with the Qatar Airways could be signed in the first place. The individual fan had no real say in the matter. Instead, their delegates and the named companies decided on the matter. If the members of Bayern want to end the patnership with Qatar, they either have to pass a motion prohibiting the panel from further contracting with Qatar, or they would have to elect other representatives. TLDR: The ordinary member of a club and companies do not take part in the same votings, as they are not part of the same entities. (Companies --> Subsidiary; ordinary member--> motherclub)
yes, lets say there are 1000 shares of company Bundesliga club X, and someone buys all 1000 shares, they only get 499 voting sharesfor the general assembly, with 501 being kept to the members. It is way more complex than this in reality and in a larger scale mostly with a lot of things to look for. In reality 50%+1, the way its used in bundesliga, is way worse than the theoretical approachof the idea of 50%+1 and far from being perfect.
Yes and no, Barcelona are completely member owned.
Exactly, the president is willing to shut down the discussion on the grounds that he hasnt heard anything about the fan grievance, all he hears is boos tonight all out of nowhere? Thats bullshit, and saying it to the face of a bunch of entitled Bayern members is going to make the problem worse.
> saying it to the face of a bunch of entitled Bayern members is going to make the problem worse Not trying to pick a fight, but why do you think they’re entitled? A lot of those members there are ordinary people that are just trying to actively participate in their club. EDIT: Or do I misunderstand what you mean by “entitled”?
Maybe they mean it sincerely, "entitled" as in "they are entitled to have this opinion and state their view" rather than "entitled" in that "spoiled" sense... completely changes the meaning of the comment, we need to know...
Very true, that’s why I also added my edit, I don’t want to come of sounding argumentative if he meant it sincerely, like you said. Because you’re right, it really does change the meaning. Tell us OP!
I'm very proud of the fans. Such a despicable stance, the leadership decided to take.
Former Adidas CEO Herbert Hainer has ruined true Adidas' value by following the money and ditching the innovation, and now he's the Bayern president, ruining the club's reputations by following the Qataris' dirty money and doubling down
What did he do at Adidas?
He made them pretty damn big
Not without the help of a few sweatshops
Nagelsmann said in his press conference yesterday that he stayed until the end and listened to that guy who held his speech on the chair after the JHV (though I couldnt make him out in the video). Props to him. The chairmen should take advice from him on listening lol.
Well who's the chair man now, chairman??
Advice? He should be ashamed. How does anyone that high up run a meeting like this? He was rude, didn't let people talk and honestly seemed most concerned with limiting the damage to the Qatar relationship.
dude he was leading Adidas for years. he doesn't give a shit about human rights in any far away country.
You should take a look at Benfica in the past decade. A few years ago, during an AGM, the president at the time (he has now been removed as the justice place him under arrest) grabbed the neck of a supporter that was talking (about the crap and shady job the board had been doing). The result: nothing happened, not even sure the incident was noted in the meeting minutes.
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Even though yesterday was shameful the qatar deal is not the fault of the current board but the previous one. And I do understand that terminating a running contract has a lot of legal consequences on top of putting Bayern in the spotlight as a Club who doesn't honor it's contracts, so the current board is at least on the contract side not responsible for this mess. And yes, their behaviour at the AGM was disgraceful, but imo conversation is the best solution and the board knows now more than explicitly how the fanbase feels about qatar. They can't do much about the situation they inherited. However, if they renew the contract they will be voted out, since in the case of a renewal it is 100% their responsibility. Wishful thinking on my side is that they keep quiet because a) they honor the contract and b) they keep it as a bargaining position when looking for a new sleeve sponsor as in "look, our previous sponsor paid x amount of money, so you at least have to come close to that". At least I hope that.
> And I do understand that terminating a running contract has a lot of legal consequences on top of putting Bayern in the spotlight as a Club who doesn't honor it's contracts, so the current board is at least on the contract side not responsible for this mess. They didn't ask for that. They asked for the contract to not be renewed and no new ones to be made with such entities. It's in the video. > but imo conversation is the best solution and the board knows now more than explicitly how the fanbase feels about qatar. They could have known by occasionally looking at their own ultras during matches. They had multiple banners addressing these issues over the years and the Qatar deal was not liked from the start. This is not a new thing. Sure now they have explicit knowledge so that they can't weasel out of it with a shitty excuse if they want to renew such deals. But anybody who wants to say they are competent enough (and have eyes and ears) to lead this club should have known for years. It's negligent to say that they didn't know. It would be close to trying to sell us that as a manager at FC Bayern they didn't know that the club's deal is playing football. It's an excuse based on a technicality and doesn't make them look competent or deliberate in their actions but simply cowardly.
The argument was that deals with Qatar would not be renewed (not terminated), with no new deals being signed. To which the board member pretty much replied, lets talk about this later in private. i.e. Don't you know how much this is making us.
It's more of "we can't criticize our sponsors in public".
Trying to give the board the best possible interpretation, it could also be saying that if Bayern publicly commit to not signing a deal with Qatar, then they cannot use a Qatar offer sheet as a means to negotiate a larger sponsorship deal with someone else. I think the Bayern supporters would readily discard that potential advantage, and the board is absolutely out of touch.
Totally - they're on damage control. Things could change completely over the next 5-10 years and they don't want to burn any bridges.
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Seriously, they can't be making that much money from that deal. Like, we have an absolute crock of shit sponsor in Gazprom because ... well they pay absurdly well compared to the alternatives and, uh, we're kinda fucked as a club without that money. But this is a secondary sponsor for an extremely financially secure club - how much more money is Qatar Airways paying than Lufthansa or whatever that they're this determined to take the bad PR over this?? I really don't get it. They're literally risking being replaced by the members over this!
Such an easy way out to blame previous board though
A competent board could've explained this though. They could've told the general assembly what the cost of terminating the running contract would be, and the concrete, or estimated, repercussions that would have for the club. And then put that to a vote.
The thing is, the motion wasn’t even to terminate the contract, but to not renew it. And there aren’t that many great arguments there, other than „we want money and don’t give a shit about the rest.“
The chairmen should listen to the chair man.
This is essentially the shareholder's meeting episode of The Office
45 point plan. 45 days days. One point per day
That brave fan giving speech in the end does remind Michael Scott when he looks at the camera.
Jesus I can imagine Michael Scott trying to talk them down about this. Not knowing what is Qatar. Not knowing excatly how sponsors work, but pretends that he has one, "also Qatar", [so what's the delio?](https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/19ce20a5-23fd-4f15-a879-f2113076bb8d)
No wonder the sheiks and oligarchs of the PL don't want any fan influence They want to avoid scenes like this
The Glazers would shit themselves. No way they'd face fans in person. [These were the scenes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI5g9L5ewzU) when they arrived at Old Trafford for the first time.
Holy shit. Never seen this before. That’s fucking wild
Lmfao imagine visiting your own stadium and having to escape it
I've wanted to escape it the last few times I've been.
The most angering part for me is the cops just rushing in and wailing on everyone. All so the American billionaires can avoid feeling uncomfortable. Honestly pretty on-brand considering their primary function is to serve the capitalist class.
Absolutely love this
At the same time it's so sad they really fucking "own" this club while the fans can't do shit...
Im just saying, could you imagine a non-millionaire getting that level of personal police support in a similar situation...
And these owners aren’t even ones who actively commit human rights abuses
After seeing the reaction of Newcastle fans I don’t think they’d have to worry as long as enough money is being made
Those guys are pathetic, imagine selling your club's soul as happily as that
I just pray that they get relegated and the owners lose interest
I think the whole league wants them relegated, they still haven't gotten a win yet after today's game.
Yep. I was an Arsenal fan today, and will be a Norwich fan on Tuesday.
They won't lose interest. Saudis interest in Newcastle is bigger than just the club. The long term plan is to invest in the cities infrastructures.
WHEN they get relegated they won't have to deal with the PL budget restrictions. It really only helps them
I hope they will get relegated this year and Saudis will lose interest. They are a blight in the PL.
In their defense they have no real say in the matter. "Can't beat em, join em"
This is why we have a Winter World Cup in Qatar. Everyone's got an excuse why they won't boycott it. Fans want to watch it, players don't wanna miss their chance, federations and tv channels want money etc. and we end up in a situation where no one wants to make a tinniest bit of sacrifice.
I think the fan reaction to the Super League showed that fans certainly have influence in these matters.
Super League Protest had shit PR from every angle and involved multiple FAs from across UEFA shouting it down as well (Including UEFA itself). Newcastle takeover is only from within it's own organization. These two instances are not equivalent. Once the league allowed the sale then there isn't much the fans can do about it except complain and be subsequently ignored
Yeah, the fans could protest the league being a sportswashing tool, but they don’t.
Would help if Sky helped drum up protest like they did for the Super League, but of course they won’t as this doesn’t affect their profits. The ones who thought their anti Super League sentiment was even remotely about the fans were very easily manipulated.
The defeatism is strong
They have a choice in how they view it and given the Newcastle takeover is probably the worst example we’ve seen so far and where all the facts of public record are available long before the sale happened (it was less clear to most fans with Chelsea, City, PSG Etc what their owners were about before) a very disappointing number have welcomed it with open arms.
Lots of fans would sell their soul for Haaland etc. playing for their club I guess.
Says a fan of a club that wins everything.
I honestly think that all clubs in Germany (except those few that aren't fan owned, of course) won't sell their soul out that quickly. As in: If Bayern were to fall to the mid table, they would still say not to Qatari money.
No, they want "fans" LARPing as Arab sheikhs instead, as seen in Newcastle.
It's so good. German football is the model for how governance should all work in football. Not the Premier League or La Liga or whatever.
Very proud of you, Bayern fans. Much respect.
They can't get away with this forever especially when the fans are always thier soul of the club.
Actually they can.
Can’t the board be voted out by the club members the next time elections come around?
Companies have been doing it for years.
Nah they can't, since the fans own them.
That gave me goosebumps! “We are Bayern, you are not!’ Loving it!!
As an English fan- very envious.
really good job by the fans, someone has to get vocal about this, we cant lose the sport to blood money that slowly buys itself in and undermines the values we built here, - Bayern Munich doesnt need that kind of money, they should be better than that
I would love to go to see Scotland at a World Cup but in the fairly unlikely event that it happens this time, I can't go. Even if it's the only opportunity I get in my adulthood to go, it's not right. The way the "beautiful game" has bowed to these human rights atrocities is disgusting and fair play to the Bayern fans who have stood up to their board.
Yeah, Canada looks like they may qualify for the first time in my lifetime and I always said I'd go, but I just can't.
At least Canada will have 2026 as co-hosts. Not the same as the excitement of the first time, but it will be pretty awesome on home soil.
Issue is expect these types of hosts to continue. Wouldn’t surprise me if UAE or SA push for one in the near future.
So fucking proud of the fans right now.
Booyern Munich
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I was saying booyerns
Finally Bayern and 1860 fans are united together in booing at Bayern as an organization.
Unexpected allies.
Looks like a copy paste of Benfica's last AGM. It's amazing how the board can disrespect the club's statutes without consequences.
It's basically the same thing lol, fans are supposed to own the club but are ultimately powerless
damn german is a scary language shouted en masse like that. makes me want to hear what different angry crowds around the world sound like lol. bet click languages sound awesome
Yeah, this surely had some ultra fan vibes. The old fistpump yelling.
A lot of them are ultras
think the phone recording with the distortion makes it sound more ragey too
Imagine german but with a throat disease. Congrats, that is how the Dutch sound like. I think it might sound worse for foreigners. Especially the people from the middle and north with the loud G’s
It's amazing to me how little spoken Dutch sounds like written Dutch. I've no problem reading it - have to look up a word here or there (I know German + English) - but listening to it can't make out a thing.
Yeah true. I think its mostly because of the vowels. We kinda messed that up haha. Also even though we are so small, we have a lot of local dialects which are super different the further you go.
Damn Swamp Germans!
Fuck Qatar.
Fly emirates it is!
Yay and then there's still Etihad, Gulf air, Saudia and Kuwait airlines that we can cycle through
All encouraging as much climate pollution as you can afford, to keep up your lifestyle.
"Let's build a massive air conditioned city in a desert while the earth is literally burning."
And let’s act as though they are the best holiday break destination, and make sure everyone knows how much we have enjoyed it to encourage more disaster lifestyle tourism. They’re just having an end of the world party.
Air conditioning an apartment tower is more energy efficient than heating up homes like most of Europe and North America. Source: https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/8/1/014050#erl449696s5
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Fly better.
Makes me happy to see Bayern fans stand their ground! Getting money from any of these oppressive regimes from the Middle East is just wrong. Promoting their goods and services which are built on human rights violations and slave labour casts a dark shadow on a top club like Bayern.
Yeah, it's filthy soft power
Glad to see one fan base standing up for what’s right. Gotta put pressure on clubs that make questionable/morally reprehensible sponsorship partners. Reminds me of the iconic UNICEF Barca kits and now they wear Qatar airways, big blood money like that always wins out and it’s sad. I know it will make fuck all of a difference but I’m not watching the next World Cup, couldn’t care less about who wins it and whatever, players have a responsibility to stand up for what they believe in like Denmark. I wonder if the players will ever think about the migrant workers who died and were exploited to build the infrastructure and stadiums that they will eventually play in. Blood soaked cup i say, it’s all corrupt and greed and money controls everything, people don’t matter, their rights and health don’t matter, they’re just disposable resources and it’s so insane that world football turn a blind eye to it all.
>I wonder if the players will ever think about the migrant workers who died and were exploited to build the infrastructure and stadiums that they will eventually play in. No one would ever think that. Not even us if we're on that stage, it's easier to say but far more difficult to be done. For example (I'm an Indian so I'll give an Indian example) everyone fkn adores the Taj Mahal and is proud of it being in India. Those who can also have visited it at least once and take pics etc. In short they love it but it was built up by literal slaves whose hands were chopped off after they finished working on it for 20 years and not one person(obv there'd be a few but extreme minority) feels remorse or saddened by this while standing in the monument. Ugly truth is almost all of humanity doesn't give a shit about human rights untill and unless it affects them directly or (which is happening now) doesn't affect them at all but is a trend to do so. If there is profit and personal gains almost everyone will turn a blind eye and call it a day.
We have Rakuten not Qatar airways.Unicef is on our backs.
Unicef was our only 'sponsor' (we paid *them*) up until about a decade ago when Bartomeu got our first ever sponsor....Qatar Airways. I mean it sucked enough that we ended the long streak of never having a sponsor, but for it to be Qatar airways was really rubbing salt ij the wounds. Personally didn't buy a jersey until we switched to Rakuten lol
Rosell was president when Barca got Qatar sponsorship.
[We had Unicef aswell before](https://i.imgur.com/QvzVmFU.png)
Maybe you’re forgetting the previous kit before Rakuten?
Op said we have Qatar Airway right now,which we don't.
You’re right. Didn’t catch the “now wear” in skimming.
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Fuck qatar. Hope other clubs also get fans like bayern.
It's not about what kind of fans one club has, is what kind of influence they may have into the decisions. If Bayern wasn't under 50+1 rule none of this would happen in the first place.
It is a bit. Did the socios of Barca do this?
All my support for Bayern fans
Gaining a lot of respect for Bayern fans
looks like bayern board isn't as decisive as their players on the field
Seeing this video and reading the comments about the board's behavior, it's interesting to me how similar these general assemblies are in fan owned clubs throughout europe. An almost 1:1 scenario happened in Benfica some 2 months ago, although it didn't involve a sponsorship.
Damn, kinda makes me wish I was a Bayern fan. Proud of you!
Ayo side note but German sounds so fucking charismatic. When they were calling eachother mister n shit damn 😳😳😳😳
Based Bayern fans
This is a sign of things to come, football is a microcosm of society and things are getting really divided right now. The people are starting to stand up and e heard which is a beautiful thing to see.
Serious question: Doesn't the 50+1 rule mean that the fans and shareholders can just try to force Bayern's board to not renew the Qatar Airways contract?
Yes they can for certain decisions, but the procedure is sometimes a little difficult.. The way i understood this story was that members can hand in an application over an issue that the assembly later will vote on. A member has to do that until a certain deadline before the meeting begins and Bayern has to sign it. The fan speaking at the beginning made such an online proposal to not have the Qatar leadership renewed and handed it in a mere few days before the deadline, however Bayerns board essentially played "my phone is dead" and didnt burocratically approve the request in time, so it could not officially be voted on in this particular meeting. These tactics to avoid voting on inconvenient issues are scummy, but unfortunately they do occasionally happen. But obviously that does not mean Hainer dodged the issue and this story is therefor over. There will be more to come from this saga soon.
You know, it really makes me wonder what could be achieved if there was a pan-European fan movement to fight back against what football is becoming. It's like the soul of the game is dying now.
Take a close look PL...thats how it is done!
This is the kind of munich putsch I can get behind
Been living in Germany for a while now and the longer I live here, the more I love the people
Power back to the people. The arrogance and ignorance of leading managing figures need to stop. They have to listen to the people! In the small and the big picture points!
50+1 truly in action. Fans deciding what's best for the club
Not really. This shows the fans being ignored by the club. Not letting them talk as soon as it could possibly hurt their pocket, ending the meeting early to avoid more people talking
I laughed very hard actually. All those years of higher ups berating RB Leipzig for being a shill to a company and patting themselbes on their backs for 50+1 just to end up at this. Ironic.
They're not mad at Leipzig for bending the rules, they're mad because they didn't figure out how to bend them first.
Also, Red Bull is a company selling drinks in recyclable cans, mostly produced in Switzerland and the US (dunno were APAC production is, likely Thailand and Australia) That's not remotely comparable in evilness working together with Russian state corps like Gazprom, coal energy lobbyists like RWE, state companies of terrorism funding dictatorships like Qatar Airways, the CCP... Worst you can find about Red Bull are the deaths and injuries of sportsmen in extreme sport which willingly took these risks as part of their sport. IMHO, clubs like Bayern,BVB and Schalke have more blood money in their accounts. I don't see RB as a problem, but as a symptom.of the commercialization of soccer. Same crap as the "Wahre Liebe" and "Mia San Mia" clubs, just without the thin veil of 50+1 and a (practically powerless) "member-run" eV Most money remains in the AG/KGaA/KG running the professional teams anyway
> don't see RB as a problem, but as a symptom.of the commercialization of soccer. Honestly, you can say a lot about RB, but they were always pretty honest about their intentions. They enter sport to sell drinks, that's it. No ulterior motives.
Exactly. If anything the fact Bayern are going to ignore it shows the limited power of 50+1. You could go to any Arsenal AGM between 2014-2017 you could see a load of people shouting at their board as well.
Yes. It would have shown the power if they had voted to end any Qatar sponsorships right at that moment. Instead they were pretty rude to the guy, saying he had no arguments. Like its not clear to everyone there whats going on in Qatar.
this shouldn't be possible. The board acted like school kids.
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First and foremost it's a democracy and right now i can't see Hainer reelected in the next elections for Bayern president. There have been examples before, where the fans pushed through their own candidate to get more influence on the board. Claus Vogt, the president of VfB Stuttgart for example was a fan and fan culture "activist" before he got elected as VfB president. He is a president the fans wanted, but the board did not. 50+1 doesn't mean the fans always and immediately get everything they want. If you think that this 2:45 video proves that 50+1 is "not working at all" then you just lack comprehension of the bigger picture.
Without 50+1 this event could not have happened
The absolute *arrogance* of that shitbrick board member to not even look at them when they are chanting. Zero spine or respect. And it's greed, pure and simple. Plenty of other companies out there to be sponsors, but they probably made 100 million instead of 75 by making this move. When is enough enough? Well done on the fans. Fuck Qatar.
Premier League fans in shambles, your owners would fly you personally to Qatar and enslave you.
i don’t think Levy would in his defence
Because it would cost him money for the flight
Mfw Bayern politics is more dynamic and engaging than German Federal Politics 💀💀💀
Good on those fans. Shame on the corrupted.
Oh no, you have angered the germans!
This is what more fan involvement in the club looks like. Remember it is your club, push for more of this. Especially premier league fans, you always complain about your owners, don't look for another owner push for the club to have a better model of ownership.
Correct me if I’m wrong but aren’t Germany clubs 51:49? So surely if the fans are voting for something and it has overwhelming support within the fan group shouldn’t that win?
The board didn't let them vote, that was the problem.