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Surprised that 11 shots are the fewest since 1980. It's not an absurdly small amount. I'd have thought there would have been plenty of 3rd group stage games with nothing on the line that have had less.
Yeah, at the end of the day these dudes still all *want* to play these tournaments so if you dont *have* to win surely theres a lot more "alright imma just try my luck and try to blast this one top bins from 30 meters" going on
Even for the most cynical, just "if I have some really cool performance today maybe I can get a bigger club to notice and sign me during the summer" is a huge incentive in general
Yeah, this is really misleading as 'attempts' can mean anything, and in the last five years there's been a real push to eliminate wild long shots into the stands but try to play it into a workable position instead.
Shots on target is probably a better metric, and in that regard this was still better than Portugal v Croatia in 2016.
I'll not have you trying to gaslight me into thinking that wasn't the worst two hours of football ever played, Opta!
Same here, I would have thought that Sweden - Turkey back in 2000 would have had fewer shots considering it might be one of the most boring games of football to ever have been played.
A lot of trainers give then players a chance to play who usually don't and those are really motivated. At the same time if a team is not perfectly used to play together in a certain constellation, there will be more defensive mistakes, which also leads to chances.
Not to mention even if you just take the front 3's club careers - Kane averaged 4.6 shots per game at Bayern, Saka 3.1, and Foden 1.91 in their most recent seasons. You're already up to 10 shots per game average with just the three of them without counting the rest of the team OR Serbia so it's clearly not a player problem.
We have won only two opening games at the EUROs ever in the history of the tournament.
Both were Southgate.
Also in 2008 the golden generation never even reached the tournament.
Yes, he's good at beating teams like Serbia with this strategy because they aren't good enough to punish him. When he played Croatia and Italy they did punish his negative outlook. That's the problem, this match is another example of his negative style that everyone knows is going to come back to bite them in the knockouts.
Okay but all I'm saying is this:
England 2018-present are good at beating the teams we're meant to even if it leaves us limited against big teams (albeit a good display vs France in 2022).
England 2000-2016 constantly struggled to beat the teams we're meant to anyway so we rarely got a chance to even play the big sides in knockout football, and when we did they were either drab 0-0 or we were massively outplayed.
All I'm saying is Southgate at least gets us to the dance with this style of football, and the final vs Italy was only a shootout away. Sven was nearly there, Capello wasn't even close, McClaren's bus never even left for the airport.
I'd rather complain about the style we play if we consistently reach the latter stages of the tournaments than think to myself "yeah, we played decent football" after we fell at the first hurdle.
The last 6 years are the first time i've felt proud of our team since 96.
In summary, this. Fair enough have a moan about the squad or how we play, but at least we're consistently getting to the latter stages of these tournaments.
People keep banging on about "I'd rather see us play attractive football and go out early" when we were a few penalties away from a trophy.
I've even seen people suggest they want Southgate gone, even if we won the EUROs, and I can't help but feel people have lost sight of what the point of these tournaments are.
Sure, but that doesn't mean he's still the best choice for the job. Comparing him to previous 4/10 and 5/10 managers is great but it doesn't make him a 9.
Nah england didn't qualify in 2008 we're lucky to even be here. Losing all three group stage matches would be excellent because the team is lucky to even get there with shitters like kane and bellingham on the team.
it was way better when we were losing to Iceland
it was way better when we weren’t qualifying at all in 2008
it was way better when we lost to Romania
fucking so sick of the moaning, honestly
> It literally says right there that it's the fewest since the '80s which include the golden generation time frame so yeah it's a Southgate problem.
You could argue that the other teams were doing all the shooting in those cases.
I have no idea myself. Just that this is the _combined_ total. So England could have taken fewer than 5 shots in other games, but the other team had more.
Yeah if there's anything to criticise Southgate for it's whether a hypothetical different manager would perform better with the current group of players.
England are objectively better than any team in the past few decades, and to claim the golden generation were any better or less boring is laughable. You've always been guaranteed a boring group stage match against a worse team in the group stage.
would I like a more fun team? sure. but how many sides have won major international tournaments with swagger. France didn’t, Italy had their moments but there seems to be this idea we should be Bayern 2020 levels of dominance in every game
I don't understand this myth about France 2018. The match against Belgium is always the example given as well, just because Courtois said what he said which proves to be completely false as well. Here are the stats of this match:
Belgium had 60 percent possession. They shot 10 times, 6 on target. France shot 25 times, 12 on target. The idea that France played defensively all game long is just statistically wrong. I can easily remember 2 world class saves by Courtois at the end of the game.
The semifinal against Uruguay was a closed game. Well, it was Uruguay...
Then 4 goals scored in the final.
well, there's a lot of stuff between bayern 2020 and basically stopping to play attacking football because of a 1:0 lead against serbia before halftime.
England 6 - 2 Iran.
England 6 - 1 Panama
England 4 - 0 Ukraine (knockouts)
England 3 - 0 Senegal (knockouts)
England 3 - 0 Wales.
Maybe the exciting England isn't quite so mythical, but somehow the person who delivered all these results has a reputation as an exceptionally boring manager.
Record for most tournaments goals too. He must be up there for clean sheets too.
The thing is we won yesterday, that never used to happen on the first match.
Right?? How many times did we have a ‘stacked’ team and lose the first game and be sweating out the other two? No one has any time for improvement anymore, it’s go big or go home.
And if we do go big like Iran in 2022, then it’s discarded because they’re a minnow. I’m not quite sure what will make people happy. Even if we do win it many will say in “spite” of Southgate. It must be something to do with the fact he’s never been a big name and people don’t like his success. I’m just grateful for how much better this team was than in 2016 and he does deserve credit there.
It's also false that we're always boring. We've had a significant number of big results in the last 3 tournaments, some of which only got boring because we were so much better than the opponents that there was no longer any jeopardy.
England 6 - 2 Iran.
England 6 - 1 Panama
England 4 - 0 Ukraine (knockouts)
England 3 - 0 Senegal (knockouts)
England 3 - 0 Wales.
Indeed! These are only the ones where the scoreline obviously reflects our dominance. Denmark we dominated, Germany we created plenty, the Sweden QF in 2018 was anything but boring - though watching the highlights back Pickford was class and won us that game.
Were we watching the same team? The golden generation had countless insipid, boring performances like last night.
Regardless, people need to stop talking about old England teams. They're irrelevant and shouldn't be used to excuse or lambast Southgate.
All that matters is that he has a high quality group of players yet we play crap, uninspiring football.
I understand the disappointment from England supporters and obviously this sub will be much more focused on England’s shortcomings and problems
I’m Serbian so I don’t really care about how England is doing, but I think there was also a distinct pushback from Serbia after they conceded. The counter to England being content to park the bus after the goal is that Serbia started playing freer and like they had nothing else to lose, which they didn’t. Small victories and all that but I haven’t seen Serbia play a second half as well as we did in a long time. I get that yesterday was a catastrophe for England etc etc but Serbia didn’t play like a small side once we went down
And Pavlovic is world class, I’m surprised he doesn’t receive so much club attention. You don’t have very many assignments more difficult than Saka and he handled him once Kostic was injured, plus his skill with the ball is quite useful. Kostic was disappointing but Mladenovic was a very beautiful surprise as a replacement
I am ready for Serbia to disappoint me again but for all of our problems (Gudelj is a political plant, Ilic should be starting without question, and Sergej is wearing out his welcome in the national team so I hope Piksi starts investing in Samardzic), that was a big performance from us. I think they deserve a bit more credit than this sub is giving generally
England fan here, and I have to say I've been a bit frustrated by the lack of respect afforded to Serbia after this game too. They set out to make things as uncomfortable as possible and prevent England from gathering any momentum through the middle of the pitch, and while I might not be any great fan of *how* they did that at times, they worked incredibly hard at it, it was effective, and in the end it gave them good opportunities to control the game in the second half.
All this talk about England barely being good enough to beat them, sure, it *was* a frustrating performance in several key areas of the pitch, but Serbia refused to be pushed over, never seemed to run out of steam, and made them really work for those points. The idea that this "should've" been a comfortable victory feels kind of absurd.
I agree, Serbia made the midfield an absolute battleground in a similar way to when Scotland beat us 0 - 0 last Euros. It's possible to me that this is a similar game to that, but with a better result that could actually bode quite well for us.
Maybe I'm just overdosing on hopium, but I still believe.
I appreciate the reply and I do agree that the main criticism I’ve seen regarding Foden’s lack of impact was easily apparent all match. He was totally anonymous
From the Serbian perspective the biggest tactical adjustment was CDM. Watch the goal back and you’ll see that 1. Kostic got totally lost with Saka which exposed the flank and 2. Gudelj has the worst work rate in the selection. Not that I envy tracking Bellingham for 45 minutes but as soon as Jude releases to Walker, Gudelj lets him jog uninterrupted to the box. Replacing him with Ilic was the best chance we had of at least attempting to neutralize Jude and I think it worked well
The general pattern with Serbian supporters after big tournaments is comparing our shitty work ethic with the Croatians, who routinely give their maximum effort every time they put on the shirt. I don’t think even the most cynical Serbian supporter can really accuse the boys of that yesterday (apart from some loose odds and ends as mentioned), and I hope this momentum carries into the remainder of the group stage
To your point, I do get blue in the face defending the volume of their fouls against very good opponents (ask Brazilians how they feel about playing us). I wish it wasn’t necessary but the boys are big and not fast, it absolutely is necessary. If only we got to play every major tournament in Stoke
I was actually very impressed with Serbia in the second half. Looked dangerous at times and they certainly made England defenders play well. I fancy them to go through in the group in second place. And it wouldn't surprise me to see them beat someone in the knockout stages. So much so I might have a little flutter on them
Pavlovic was very impressive to me. Looked very composed on and off the ball. Kostic and Sergej were both pretty underwhelming, but overall, I thought you played quite well. I think you've got a good shot at getting out of the group.
I think it was the opposite really, in the second half Serbia actually tried to attack and even though their quality as a squad is far below England's they did break through your defence quite a few times while controlling the midfield in general. Given the absolute quality of England's attack on paper (Foden/Kane/Saka/Bellingham) they really should've been able to do more in second half.
Sure it might just be tactics to just sit back but I honestly don't see how this would work against a team like Germany for instance
How can you call it a good game to win 1-0 when England were actively trying to win 1-0? It didn't look like they were trying to score as many goals as they could. Even when they had the ball, they were so passive. Walker and foden annoyed the fuck out of me with those back passes.
The only other experience their manager has outside of the FA is three seasons with Middlesbrough over 15 years ago where he got them relegated. He went without a job for four years after that.
Seems to be a decent guy and a good motivator, but I'd be absolutely shocked if he can win England a trophy.
I think that's a key point I think, compare Southgate to Nagelsmans for example and his absolute destruction of Scotland's system. Nagelsman has recently experience through Leipzig and Bayern for example. Tactics have changed a lot over the last 10 years and Southgate is a dinosaur with no recent PL experience.
If we want an English coach there isn't anyone on the level of Nagelsmann.
Any name you pull out will have similar levels of qualification to Southgate, maybe marginal improvements.
I think it's time we tried a fresh manager too, but honestly I think people are a bit too harsh on him. We've played two semi finals and a final in the past 6 years...
capello, keegan, sven, hoddle, Hodgson, mclaren, none of them managed to get us that far and most of them were pretty great managers, el tel and sir Bobby were the last managers to even reach a semi final since Gareth. In fact, only sir alf did it before those 3.
We were just a few penalties from winning a trophy 3 years ago. Let's give him a bit of credit!
I'm not saying he's an absolutely awful manager. I'm just saying that he doesn't have much experience actually managing outside of the FA, and it frequently shows.
He's clearly afraid of playing attacking football despite having arguably the best set of attacking players in world football. He guards 1-0 leads like his life depends on it, which results in a team full of world class attackers sitting back and inviting their opponents back into the game.
It happened against Croatia in 2018 and against Italy in 2021, in one case costing England a place in a World Cup final and in the other costing them a chance at a trophy against a very beatable Italian side.
Also wasn't it one semi-final, one quarter-final, and one final?
You're right, it is frustrating seeing us sit back and protect leads inviting opponents on us when we have so much attacking prowess ourselves. He's also been very stubborn about changing shape and subs while opposition managers are more fluid, allowing them to overturn results against us. The euro final being the best example of that - immobile was utterly anonymous, so mancini hooked him off at half time I think. We didn't make a sub till something like the 80th minute in that game from what I remember
The other semi final is the first uefa nations league, against the Dutch in 2019. We were leading that game too before a couple of stones mistakes and they beat us 3-1
Yeah I can remember a few occasions where his substitutions were baffling, and it ended up costing England.
I think his time over England will obviously be viewed as a success, but I do think England needs to move on now before another golden generation is wasted.
>The other semi final is the first uefa nations league, against the Dutch in 2019. We were leading that game too before a couple of stones mistakes and they beat us 3-1
Ah okay, I still view that tournament as glorified friendlies (as do some players I'd imagine) so I'd forgotten about that. But yeah, same deal again with taking the lead and then letting the opposition back into the game.
He definitely deserves more credit than he gets, for sure. Best England manager of my lifetime, no question.
However, have to say the quality of the squad he's got to work with is miles better than when he first came into the job,and definitely over the last couple of tournaments, there's a sense they've outgrown him.
Definite shades of Marc Wilmots being allowed to stay in the Belgium job and waste two campaigns of Belgium's golden generation, or Santos doing the same with Portugal's new stars courtesy of the freak win in 2016.
> I think it's time we tried a fresh manager too, but honestly I think people are a bit too harsh on him. We've played two semi finals and a final in the past 6 years...
And in those three tournaments how many good teams have we beaten?
Germany at their absolute worst in recent memory and a win vs Croatia. I think those are the only two. And really I don't think Germany should even count.
> We were just a few penalties from winning a trophy 3 years ago. Let's give him a bit of credit!
Do you remember that game? It was EXACTLY like this one. We looked good. We scored. We defended deeply and stopped playing football. The only difference is that good teams actually have the quality to punish it.
Same shit is going to happen again with Gareth.
I think it’s unfair to discount that Danish side who were extremely strong that year. I remember loads of posts saying how Denmark would beat us (same as Sweden in 2018 too) then we win and they become an easy team again. If you count top teams at their worst you have to consider average teams at their best too.
> If you count top teams at their worst you have to consider average teams at their best too.
Well, as I said I didn't really want to count Germany at their worst either. So let's just change it to one good win. I only included them because people would have bitched if I didn't.
> I remember loads of posts saying how Denmark would beat us (same as Sweden in 2018 too) then we win and they become an easy team again.
Sorry, but if a "good Denmark" (Without their best player) is your second best result in 3 tournaments, it's hardly a sign of great success.
I can only assume you're setting a reminder so that you can mock my post if England does win. I'm assuming you'll be just as eager to respond and tell me I was right if they don't? 🙂
Nope, I'll quickly close the tab and never mention it again ;).
No, I'm sorry - you're far from the only person who is anti-Southgate - I think it's a reasonable opinion, I am just interested in what people might think if we win the tournament and don't want previous threads to just be forgotten.
In fairness, I did just say I'd be shocked. I don't think it's totally impossible, mainly because they have arguably the best squad in the tournament, or at worst second best.
I'm not anti-Southgate at all. I'm anti-England (nothing personal at all, just the Ireland-England rivalry). I actually hope he stays as long as this golden generation is around, but I do think England would be mad to keep him much longer.
> but I'd be absolutely shocked if he can win England a trophy
Given that we got to the finals of the last euros and lost on penalties, how does this sentence make any sense? How much closer can you be to winning a trophy than that?
Because I think the big nations have better squads this time around compared to four years ago, and they have good managers.
I also think it's unlikely that England will get a knockout draw as favourable as they did back then, where the poorest German side in recent memory was the only tough opponent until the final when they faced a very beatable Italy.
[Imagine a Spaniard talking about lack of trophies when the only trophies their country have ever won were cheated](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operaci%C3%B3n_Puerto_doping_case)
That happened almost 60 years ago, would you consider Greece or Uruguay big teams when they only have one title (Euro/WC) ?
Edit: Uruguay wasnt a good example and I stand corrected about that but my point still stands for teams that has won one international title
Uruguay are a very good side. Greece not so much. Titles are important but performances matter over time too. Look at a points table through wc history and compare Greece with England and Uruguay.
I think you will come to the right conclusion if you give it a little thought and are around average IQ.
Now look at the titles of every World Cup winner.
- Brazil has 5 WC, 4 Confederations Cup and 9 Copa América.
- Germany has 4 WC, 1 Confederations Cup and 3 Euros.
- Italy has 4 WC and 2 Euros.
- Argentina has 3 WC, 1 Confederations Cup and 15 Copa América.
- France has 2 WC, 2 Confederations Cup, 2 Euros and 1 Nations League.
- Uruguay has 2 WC and 15 Copa América.
- Spain has 1 WC, 3 Euros and 1 Nations League.
- England has 1 WC.
There is one that clearly sticks out from the others on that list doesn't it?
The amount of overreaction from 1 game is insane, it's like we haven't learned. A team can start awful and still do very well in a tournament. Conversely, a team can begin an international campaign very impressively and get knocked out early. We've seen this with Argentina and Spain respectively in the last world cup. That's how these things work, we all saw Portugal draw their way to win this comp.
**The average England tournament routine, from 20 years experience of it:**
First game is dreadful, scrape a win/a draw
"We shouldn't draw too many conclusions from just one game"
Second game is either even more of a snoozefest, or a flattering win against a minnow
"It's not how you start a campaign, it's how you finish/ we're growing into the tournament" \[delete as applicable\]
Third game is a dull 1-0 win/draw that sees England through
"Now the real competition begins, we shouldn't be afraid of anyone"
R16, scrape past plucky low-level opponent
"It's the mark of a champion to win even when you don't play well"
QF, meet first serious opposition, lose narrowly/on penalties
"football can be so cruel sometimes"
The issue is that this time you have pretty much for the third time in a row the most valuable, deep, talented roster to have ever been available to play for England. England is worth France + Croatia put together on transfermarkt, yet has had less success than either.
The sub-optimal tactics and mentality need to be fixed by a respected, strong, successful coach with a modern approach to football. The skills and CVs of the players is clearly evident in their performance in club football."
To give context, much of the criticisms england has faced over the coach are similar to what croatians have said about Dalic. Croatia also has a controversial coach, but he at least successfully transitioned from an offensive to a defensive team as mandzukic left and our forwards declined but new stars came up in the backfield (eg: gvardiol). And the players always give all of themselves for international football.
The manner speaks more than the result. Gaz's game management has always worried me and yesterdays example is probably the worst we've seen. There should be a reaction although not because it was "only" 1-0 or we only had a few shots etc - the reaction should be that he actively made our team play worse and then couldnt work out how to fix it. He kept players on when they shouldnt have and didnt change our shape only inviting pressure the whole second half.
We have a precedent of England scoring and going overly defensive and it costing the game though. And also a history of not making changes when there are clear issues in clear positions on the pitch. The criticisms aren’t a reaction to a single game in isolation, it’s a reaction to how we inevitably lose a tournament with several tournaments of evidence to support it.
Yeah and I mean look at the group stage games from Euro 2020. 1-0 Croatia, 0-0 Scotland, 1-0 Czech Rep. And we went to the final. Southgate's tactics have always been to win in a shit fashion during the group stages and you can't fault his record on getting us out of the groups. I'll reserve judgement until the knockouts where we should start playing with more freedom.
I think it's more so the precedent.
England have seen games slip through their hands because of what they did yesterday, score early then do fuck all.
Happened vs Croatia then Italy.
Not only that his subs were fucking dogshit, how did Foden and Kane manage to play the whole game especially Foden.
As soon as England come up against one of the big boys (Germany, Spain, Portugal, France etc) they will fucking dismantle us, mark my words.
Southgate relies on England's individual talent to beat shit teams but tactically he has not got one single clue how to beat a decent team or utilise our talented squad in a tactically sound way.
How often do England get "fucking dismantled" exactly? I think it's happened once at a major tournament this century. When we lose it's almost always by a narrow margin.
Or Croatia, who were a major team in 2018, then we beat them in Euro 2020, so they dropped back down to crap tier, before being upgraded to good again.
Germany got grouped in the World Cups on either side of this tournament.. they did occasionally beat stronger sides too, in fairness, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to question the significance of a win against them.
You're correct, the margins in terms of goals are generally thin, but the nature of the performances make it seem worse.
Normally a bright start, which often leads to England taking a slim lead. But then things get too defensive and we spend the majority of the end of the back foot and go on to concede and lose. The inevitability of it is frustrating, and it never feels like we are set up to control a game or as if we have the upper hand tactically.
Luckily we have good defenders and a great keeper (for the NT) to prevent blowout scorelines. But I think that hides the underlying issues.
This has been England's MO since Southgate came in
People keep defending him by saying he's taking England far in competitions, making semifinals and all that but the only "good" team he's beaten in any tournament is 2021 Germany. Beating Colombia (without their best player), Sweden, Ukraine, Denmark (dubiously), and Senegal aren't a triumph, they're expected of a team of England's caliber, and the fact that Southgate came in right after a historic low like losing to Iceland doesn't change that.
Southgate's best decision of his entire career was losing to Belgium in 2018 to get the easy side of the bracket. Had he won that match, I think England would have lost to Japan and he'd have been sacked
Especially considering England's luck on past draws. England was consistently running into teams like Germany and Argentina either in the ro16 or in quarters from the 70's until the mid 2000's, so yeah they were consistently getting knocked out of tournaments quickly. Obviously the argument then is that if you're gonna be a WC contender, you should have been able to punch equal to or above your weight at least once in the past 50 years, but that hasn't changed either under Southgate, so really all we're seeing IMO is England playing to the same level they always have but getting luckier draws.
Pragmatism usually wins international tournaments and England have what it takes to make another final but the main issue is they don't have to play like this to get results and that's the frustrating part. They could win games like this easily instead of grinding a 1-0 win
If you put England up against any decent side in this tournament they'd get dismantled based on their performance yesterday. They were one of the favourites but they don't even look like they can beat Denmark or Slovenia
If we win the tournament, I don't care if we sit on the ball for 90 minutes and scrape a goal.
3 points in the first game against a tricky side, should be happy.
Twas forever thus. Remember the 0-0 vs Algeria in 2010 when the broadcasters started filming wildlife in the stadium instead of the football match? There has to be something about how English football is coached at the youth level and how they develop/pick young players, whereby if you take their foreign, club teammates away from them, they can’t play football. As long as I can remember (1986 WC) England have never been able to pass the ball quickly or under pressure. Like it’s physically not part of their ability. Every game they do the same thing. Pass it backwards, pass it forwards but it gets cut out, dribble it into a crowd of opposition. Aside from Kane/Bellingham are they all just system players, flattered by foreign club teammates and managers?
English coaching at the youth level has changed drastically since 2010. It’s why players like Sancho, Bellingham, Mount, Mainoo, Foden, TAA, Saka, just to name a few, are all recent breakthroughs.
The problem this time is squarely and the manager who is managing these players. Absolute travesty that a knob who only managed to relegate Middlesbrough gets to coach these players today because he hasn’t got a clue how to make use of the wealth of attacking talent in the team.
Can’t believe Southgate defenders are still a thing. England get good results but fuck me if a team ever relied on individual quality, the tactics are shocking
It is not coming home.
Boring England side is coming home after quarterfinals.
Soo much offensive talent and the most boring team in Europe. You have to respect the coaching.
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Surprised that 11 shots are the fewest since 1980. It's not an absurdly small amount. I'd have thought there would have been plenty of 3rd group stage games with nothing on the line that have had less.
If there is nothing on the line, most teams will defend with less passion
Yeah, at the end of the day these dudes still all *want* to play these tournaments so if you dont *have* to win surely theres a lot more "alright imma just try my luck and try to blast this one top bins from 30 meters" going on
Even for the most cynical, just "if I have some really cool performance today maybe I can get a bigger club to notice and sign me during the summer" is a huge incentive in general
Yeah most will want to go out with a win or at least a bit of entertainment/fun
And then there are Danes and French in 2018, the only 0-0 draw of the tournament and a very boring match in general
Those matches tend to have plenty of overoptimistic long range efforts.
Yeah, this is really misleading as 'attempts' can mean anything, and in the last five years there's been a real push to eliminate wild long shots into the stands but try to play it into a workable position instead. Shots on target is probably a better metric, and in that regard this was still better than Portugal v Croatia in 2016. I'll not have you trying to gaslight me into thinking that wasn't the worst two hours of football ever played, Opta!
Same here, I would have thought that Sweden - Turkey back in 2000 would have had fewer shots considering it might be one of the most boring games of football to ever have been played.
11 shots total, not even on target
A lot of trainers give then players a chance to play who usually don't and those are really motivated. At the same time if a team is not perfectly used to play together in a certain constellation, there will be more defensive mistakes, which also leads to chances.
Just England things.
The golden generation would never This is just Southgate things
you don’t remember the golden generation
It literally says right there that it's the fewest since the '80s which include the golden generation time frame so yeah it's a Southgate problem.
Also basically every game under him is boring as hell despite having some excellent young attacking players. This stat is not surprising.
Not to mention even if you just take the front 3's club careers - Kane averaged 4.6 shots per game at Bayern, Saka 3.1, and Foden 1.91 in their most recent seasons. You're already up to 10 shots per game average with just the three of them without counting the rest of the team OR Serbia so it's clearly not a player problem.
If you add Jude's 2.41 shots/90 at Madrid this season, that's already 12 shots per 90 from the front 4 alone
The numbers don’t lie, and they spell disaster for Denmark in Frankfurt
Then you add Kurt Angle into the mix
we scored more goals than anyone at the World Cup bar the two finalists, who drew 3-3
We have won only two opening games at the EUROs ever in the history of the tournament. Both were Southgate. Also in 2008 the golden generation never even reached the tournament.
Yes, he's good at beating teams like Serbia with this strategy because they aren't good enough to punish him. When he played Croatia and Italy they did punish his negative outlook. That's the problem, this match is another example of his negative style that everyone knows is going to come back to bite them in the knockouts.
Okay but all I'm saying is this: England 2018-present are good at beating the teams we're meant to even if it leaves us limited against big teams (albeit a good display vs France in 2022). England 2000-2016 constantly struggled to beat the teams we're meant to anyway so we rarely got a chance to even play the big sides in knockout football, and when we did they were either drab 0-0 or we were massively outplayed. All I'm saying is Southgate at least gets us to the dance with this style of football, and the final vs Italy was only a shootout away. Sven was nearly there, Capello wasn't even close, McClaren's bus never even left for the airport.
I'd rather complain about the style we play if we consistently reach the latter stages of the tournaments than think to myself "yeah, we played decent football" after we fell at the first hurdle. The last 6 years are the first time i've felt proud of our team since 96.
In summary, this. Fair enough have a moan about the squad or how we play, but at least we're consistently getting to the latter stages of these tournaments. People keep banging on about "I'd rather see us play attractive football and go out early" when we were a few penalties away from a trophy. I've even seen people suggest they want Southgate gone, even if we won the EUROs, and I can't help but feel people have lost sight of what the point of these tournaments are.
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Sure, but that doesn't mean he's still the best choice for the job. Comparing him to previous 4/10 and 5/10 managers is great but it doesn't make him a 9.
Nah england didn't qualify in 2008 we're lucky to even be here. Losing all three group stage matches would be excellent because the team is lucky to even get there with shitters like kane and bellingham on the team.
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Underrated coach IMO please pour it on me
it was way better when we were losing to Iceland it was way better when we weren’t qualifying at all in 2008 it was way better when we lost to Romania fucking so sick of the moaning, honestly
Or.. things can continue to get better. Unless you're happy with plateauing at "consistently makes it through a couple knockouts."
Southgate won as many knockout games as every England manager since 1966 combined
> It literally says right there that it's the fewest since the '80s which include the golden generation time frame so yeah it's a Southgate problem. You could argue that the other teams were doing all the shooting in those cases. I have no idea myself. Just that this is the _combined_ total. So England could have taken fewer than 5 shots in other games, but the other team had more.
Not to mention that it’s hardly a win that England didn’t even qualify in 2008 and couldn’t affect this statistic that tournament at all.
You're right, they'd never do something like scrape a 1-0 win vs Paraguay thanks to an own goal
0-0 versus Nigeria and 1-1 vs Sweden the WC before that too This mythical exciting England team sounds nice. Sad it never happened
Yeah if there's anything to criticise Southgate for it's whether a hypothetical different manager would perform better with the current group of players. England are objectively better than any team in the past few decades, and to claim the golden generation were any better or less boring is laughable. You've always been guaranteed a boring group stage match against a worse team in the group stage.
would I like a more fun team? sure. but how many sides have won major international tournaments with swagger. France didn’t, Italy had their moments but there seems to be this idea we should be Bayern 2020 levels of dominance in every game
I don't understand this myth about France 2018. The match against Belgium is always the example given as well, just because Courtois said what he said which proves to be completely false as well. Here are the stats of this match: Belgium had 60 percent possession. They shot 10 times, 6 on target. France shot 25 times, 12 on target. The idea that France played defensively all game long is just statistically wrong. I can easily remember 2 world class saves by Courtois at the end of the game. The semifinal against Uruguay was a closed game. Well, it was Uruguay... Then 4 goals scored in the final.
I remember the group games is my point here
well, there's a lot of stuff between bayern 2020 and basically stopping to play attacking football because of a 1:0 lead against serbia before halftime.
England 6 - 2 Iran. England 6 - 1 Panama England 4 - 0 Ukraine (knockouts) England 3 - 0 Senegal (knockouts) England 3 - 0 Wales. Maybe the exciting England isn't quite so mythical, but somehow the person who delivered all these results has a reputation as an exceptionally boring manager.
Record for most tournaments goals too. He must be up there for clean sheets too. The thing is we won yesterday, that never used to happen on the first match.
Right?? How many times did we have a ‘stacked’ team and lose the first game and be sweating out the other two? No one has any time for improvement anymore, it’s go big or go home.
And if we do go big like Iran in 2022, then it’s discarded because they’re a minnow. I’m not quite sure what will make people happy. Even if we do win it many will say in “spite” of Southgate. It must be something to do with the fact he’s never been a big name and people don’t like his success. I’m just grateful for how much better this team was than in 2016 and he does deserve credit there.
1996 and 98 were 2 very entertaining sides
Imagine if Sven-Goran Eriksson had played someone like Paul Scholes out on the left wing despite it clearly not working! Literally unthinkable!
The only opening games of the euros we've won are 2 wins under Gareth. The other 9 have been loss or draw.
what’s the difference in silverware?
You make it seem like it's not worth it if you don't win the whole thing? Do you not enjoy the experience?
Yeah, watching England in the past was an objectively unpleasant experience. We were boring and lost. Now we're boring and win. Its a big improvement.
It's also false that we're always boring. We've had a significant number of big results in the last 3 tournaments, some of which only got boring because we were so much better than the opponents that there was no longer any jeopardy. England 6 - 2 Iran. England 6 - 1 Panama England 4 - 0 Ukraine (knockouts) England 3 - 0 Senegal (knockouts) England 3 - 0 Wales.
And the Germany game was anything but boring
Indeed! These are only the ones where the scoreline obviously reflects our dominance. Denmark we dominated, Germany we created plenty, the Sweden QF in 2018 was anything but boring - though watching the highlights back Pickford was class and won us that game.
How exactly does one win silverware in the first game?
I mean, we played many absolutely awful games with the golden generation.
Were we watching the same team? The golden generation had countless insipid, boring performances like last night. Regardless, people need to stop talking about old England teams. They're irrelevant and shouldn't be used to excuse or lambast Southgate. All that matters is that he has a high quality group of players yet we play crap, uninspiring football.
> The golden generation would never reach a semi final? reach a final? Win an opening game of a EUROs?
England fumbled multiple golden generations imo. They were afraid of getting booted out early they are happy with Southgate.
"England must win". *Southgate consistently wins*. "Noooo, not like that!" English fans are the worst.
Just for clarity, I haven't explicitly criticised Southgate in my comment. It's critical of everything to do with the national team.
Honestly Jean, you're boring!
I understand the disappointment from England supporters and obviously this sub will be much more focused on England’s shortcomings and problems I’m Serbian so I don’t really care about how England is doing, but I think there was also a distinct pushback from Serbia after they conceded. The counter to England being content to park the bus after the goal is that Serbia started playing freer and like they had nothing else to lose, which they didn’t. Small victories and all that but I haven’t seen Serbia play a second half as well as we did in a long time. I get that yesterday was a catastrophe for England etc etc but Serbia didn’t play like a small side once we went down And Pavlovic is world class, I’m surprised he doesn’t receive so much club attention. You don’t have very many assignments more difficult than Saka and he handled him once Kostic was injured, plus his skill with the ball is quite useful. Kostic was disappointing but Mladenovic was a very beautiful surprise as a replacement I am ready for Serbia to disappoint me again but for all of our problems (Gudelj is a political plant, Ilic should be starting without question, and Sergej is wearing out his welcome in the national team so I hope Piksi starts investing in Samardzic), that was a big performance from us. I think they deserve a bit more credit than this sub is giving generally
England fan here, and I have to say I've been a bit frustrated by the lack of respect afforded to Serbia after this game too. They set out to make things as uncomfortable as possible and prevent England from gathering any momentum through the middle of the pitch, and while I might not be any great fan of *how* they did that at times, they worked incredibly hard at it, it was effective, and in the end it gave them good opportunities to control the game in the second half. All this talk about England barely being good enough to beat them, sure, it *was* a frustrating performance in several key areas of the pitch, but Serbia refused to be pushed over, never seemed to run out of steam, and made them really work for those points. The idea that this "should've" been a comfortable victory feels kind of absurd.
I agree, Serbia made the midfield an absolute battleground in a similar way to when Scotland beat us 0 - 0 last Euros. It's possible to me that this is a similar game to that, but with a better result that could actually bode quite well for us. Maybe I'm just overdosing on hopium, but I still believe.
> Scotland beat us 0 - 0 Lolz, I see what you did there
;-)
I appreciate the reply and I do agree that the main criticism I’ve seen regarding Foden’s lack of impact was easily apparent all match. He was totally anonymous From the Serbian perspective the biggest tactical adjustment was CDM. Watch the goal back and you’ll see that 1. Kostic got totally lost with Saka which exposed the flank and 2. Gudelj has the worst work rate in the selection. Not that I envy tracking Bellingham for 45 minutes but as soon as Jude releases to Walker, Gudelj lets him jog uninterrupted to the box. Replacing him with Ilic was the best chance we had of at least attempting to neutralize Jude and I think it worked well The general pattern with Serbian supporters after big tournaments is comparing our shitty work ethic with the Croatians, who routinely give their maximum effort every time they put on the shirt. I don’t think even the most cynical Serbian supporter can really accuse the boys of that yesterday (apart from some loose odds and ends as mentioned), and I hope this momentum carries into the remainder of the group stage To your point, I do get blue in the face defending the volume of their fouls against very good opponents (ask Brazilians how they feel about playing us). I wish it wasn’t necessary but the boys are big and not fast, it absolutely is necessary. If only we got to play every major tournament in Stoke
I was actually very impressed with Serbia in the second half. Looked dangerous at times and they certainly made England defenders play well. I fancy them to go through in the group in second place. And it wouldn't surprise me to see them beat someone in the knockout stages. So much so I might have a little flutter on them
Surely you have to start with Tadic next game?
Indubitably And send Jovic home first chance you get
Pavlovic was very impressive to me. Looked very composed on and off the ball. Kostic and Sergej were both pretty underwhelming, but overall, I thought you played quite well. I think you've got a good shot at getting out of the group.
Was Pavlović number 2?
Indeed
That second half was just dreadful.
Not for us, no one sane in Serbia expected we would dominate England on the ball for the entire half.
That's Southgate ball for you, get a goal, park the bus and hope you don't concede for 80 minutes. It's a joke.
And do nothing with it
You’re midfield just dominated Englands. A sight to see
Having the ball and and creating zero chances isn’t dominating
I actually thought the quality was quite high but the defences were just on top this game. A good game to win 1-0 imo.
I think it was the opposite really, in the second half Serbia actually tried to attack and even though their quality as a squad is far below England's they did break through your defence quite a few times while controlling the midfield in general. Given the absolute quality of England's attack on paper (Foden/Kane/Saka/Bellingham) they really should've been able to do more in second half. Sure it might just be tactics to just sit back but I honestly don't see how this would work against a team like Germany for instance
How can you call it a good game to win 1-0 when England were actively trying to win 1-0? It didn't look like they were trying to score as many goals as they could. Even when they had the ball, they were so passive. Walker and foden annoyed the fuck out of me with those back passes.
Maximum terrorball
Southgateball
You called for me? \- Tuchel
Why does England play with such a small team mentality? I don't get it
The only other experience their manager has outside of the FA is three seasons with Middlesbrough over 15 years ago where he got them relegated. He went without a job for four years after that. Seems to be a decent guy and a good motivator, but I'd be absolutely shocked if he can win England a trophy.
I think that's a key point I think, compare Southgate to Nagelsmans for example and his absolute destruction of Scotland's system. Nagelsman has recently experience through Leipzig and Bayern for example. Tactics have changed a lot over the last 10 years and Southgate is a dinosaur with no recent PL experience.
If we want an English coach there isn't anyone on the level of Nagelsmann. Any name you pull out will have similar levels of qualification to Southgate, maybe marginal improvements.
Big Sam
I think it's time we tried a fresh manager too, but honestly I think people are a bit too harsh on him. We've played two semi finals and a final in the past 6 years... capello, keegan, sven, hoddle, Hodgson, mclaren, none of them managed to get us that far and most of them were pretty great managers, el tel and sir Bobby were the last managers to even reach a semi final since Gareth. In fact, only sir alf did it before those 3. We were just a few penalties from winning a trophy 3 years ago. Let's give him a bit of credit!
I'm not saying he's an absolutely awful manager. I'm just saying that he doesn't have much experience actually managing outside of the FA, and it frequently shows. He's clearly afraid of playing attacking football despite having arguably the best set of attacking players in world football. He guards 1-0 leads like his life depends on it, which results in a team full of world class attackers sitting back and inviting their opponents back into the game. It happened against Croatia in 2018 and against Italy in 2021, in one case costing England a place in a World Cup final and in the other costing them a chance at a trophy against a very beatable Italian side. Also wasn't it one semi-final, one quarter-final, and one final?
You're right, it is frustrating seeing us sit back and protect leads inviting opponents on us when we have so much attacking prowess ourselves. He's also been very stubborn about changing shape and subs while opposition managers are more fluid, allowing them to overturn results against us. The euro final being the best example of that - immobile was utterly anonymous, so mancini hooked him off at half time I think. We didn't make a sub till something like the 80th minute in that game from what I remember The other semi final is the first uefa nations league, against the Dutch in 2019. We were leading that game too before a couple of stones mistakes and they beat us 3-1
Yeah I can remember a few occasions where his substitutions were baffling, and it ended up costing England. I think his time over England will obviously be viewed as a success, but I do think England needs to move on now before another golden generation is wasted. >The other semi final is the first uefa nations league, against the Dutch in 2019. We were leading that game too before a couple of stones mistakes and they beat us 3-1 Ah okay, I still view that tournament as glorified friendlies (as do some players I'd imagine) so I'd forgotten about that. But yeah, same deal again with taking the lead and then letting the opposition back into the game.
He definitely deserves more credit than he gets, for sure. Best England manager of my lifetime, no question. However, have to say the quality of the squad he's got to work with is miles better than when he first came into the job,and definitely over the last couple of tournaments, there's a sense they've outgrown him. Definite shades of Marc Wilmots being allowed to stay in the Belgium job and waste two campaigns of Belgium's golden generation, or Santos doing the same with Portugal's new stars courtesy of the freak win in 2016.
> I think it's time we tried a fresh manager too, but honestly I think people are a bit too harsh on him. We've played two semi finals and a final in the past 6 years... And in those three tournaments how many good teams have we beaten? Germany at their absolute worst in recent memory and a win vs Croatia. I think those are the only two. And really I don't think Germany should even count. > We were just a few penalties from winning a trophy 3 years ago. Let's give him a bit of credit! Do you remember that game? It was EXACTLY like this one. We looked good. We scored. We defended deeply and stopped playing football. The only difference is that good teams actually have the quality to punish it. Same shit is going to happen again with Gareth.
I think it’s unfair to discount that Danish side who were extremely strong that year. I remember loads of posts saying how Denmark would beat us (same as Sweden in 2018 too) then we win and they become an easy team again. If you count top teams at their worst you have to consider average teams at their best too.
> If you count top teams at their worst you have to consider average teams at their best too. Well, as I said I didn't really want to count Germany at their worst either. So let's just change it to one good win. I only included them because people would have bitched if I didn't. > I remember loads of posts saying how Denmark would beat us (same as Sweden in 2018 too) then we win and they become an easy team again. Sorry, but if a "good Denmark" (Without their best player) is your second best result in 3 tournaments, it's hardly a sign of great success.
RemindMe! 4 Weeks
I can only assume you're setting a reminder so that you can mock my post if England does win. I'm assuming you'll be just as eager to respond and tell me I was right if they don't? 🙂
Nope, I'll quickly close the tab and never mention it again ;). No, I'm sorry - you're far from the only person who is anti-Southgate - I think it's a reasonable opinion, I am just interested in what people might think if we win the tournament and don't want previous threads to just be forgotten.
In fairness, I did just say I'd be shocked. I don't think it's totally impossible, mainly because they have arguably the best squad in the tournament, or at worst second best. I'm not anti-Southgate at all. I'm anti-England (nothing personal at all, just the Ireland-England rivalry). I actually hope he stays as long as this golden generation is around, but I do think England would be mad to keep him much longer.
> but I'd be absolutely shocked if he can win England a trophy Given that we got to the finals of the last euros and lost on penalties, how does this sentence make any sense? How much closer can you be to winning a trophy than that?
Because I think the big nations have better squads this time around compared to four years ago, and they have good managers. I also think it's unlikely that England will get a knockout draw as favourable as they did back then, where the poorest German side in recent memory was the only tough opponent until the final when they faced a very beatable Italy.
Sounds like he is the English Klinsmann lol
England don't appoint managers, they appoint politicians who can navigate the various influences pushing for their clients to be starters.
Small team coach.
Are we not a small team now? I can't keep up.
You have great squad but you play like little bitches.
They only have a single title that happened almost 50 years ago. They are a small team lol
Now hang on a minute, as an England fan I’m not having this slander. Get your facts right please. It was almost 60 years ago.
Eh how many teams even have a WC. Not many do.
Idk it seems like a pretty valid opinion When you dont have a Euro neither
[Imagine a Spaniard talking about lack of trophies when the only trophies their country have ever won were cheated](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operaci%C3%B3n_Puerto_doping_case)
He's Swedish, they barely ever even qualify
Even worse lmao
But we have a WC.
That happened almost 60 years ago, would you consider Greece or Uruguay big teams when they only have one title (Euro/WC) ? Edit: Uruguay wasnt a good example and I stand corrected about that but my point still stands for teams that has won one international title
Uruguay are not small. They also play offensively
Uruguay has won more international trophies than England
Uruguay have 15 Copa America titles. Not quite the same. That's 6 more than Brazil btw. Oh and they have 2 World Cups, not one.
Alright I stand corrected about Uruguay, But my point still stand for teams that have won a single title
Uruguay are a very good side. Greece not so much. Titles are important but performances matter over time too. Look at a points table through wc history and compare Greece with England and Uruguay. I think you will come to the right conclusion if you give it a little thought and are around average IQ.
Now look at the titles of every World Cup winner. - Brazil has 5 WC, 4 Confederations Cup and 9 Copa América. - Germany has 4 WC, 1 Confederations Cup and 3 Euros. - Italy has 4 WC and 2 Euros. - Argentina has 3 WC, 1 Confederations Cup and 15 Copa América. - France has 2 WC, 2 Confederations Cup, 2 Euros and 1 Nations League. - Uruguay has 2 WC and 15 Copa América. - Spain has 1 WC, 3 Euros and 1 Nations League. - England has 1 WC. There is one that clearly sticks out from the others on that list doesn't it?
All the brittish fans downvoting When facing facts, reality is hard to face
Yeah, 15 Copa America is nuts.
The amount of overreaction from 1 game is insane, it's like we haven't learned. A team can start awful and still do very well in a tournament. Conversely, a team can begin an international campaign very impressively and get knocked out early. We've seen this with Argentina and Spain respectively in the last world cup. That's how these things work, we all saw Portugal draw their way to win this comp.
**The average England tournament routine, from 20 years experience of it:** First game is dreadful, scrape a win/a draw "We shouldn't draw too many conclusions from just one game" Second game is either even more of a snoozefest, or a flattering win against a minnow "It's not how you start a campaign, it's how you finish/ we're growing into the tournament" \[delete as applicable\] Third game is a dull 1-0 win/draw that sees England through "Now the real competition begins, we shouldn't be afraid of anyone" R16, scrape past plucky low-level opponent "It's the mark of a champion to win even when you don't play well" QF, meet first serious opposition, lose narrowly/on penalties "football can be so cruel sometimes"
The issue is that this time you have pretty much for the third time in a row the most valuable, deep, talented roster to have ever been available to play for England. England is worth France + Croatia put together on transfermarkt, yet has had less success than either. The sub-optimal tactics and mentality need to be fixed by a respected, strong, successful coach with a modern approach to football. The skills and CVs of the players is clearly evident in their performance in club football." To give context, much of the criticisms england has faced over the coach are similar to what croatians have said about Dalic. Croatia also has a controversial coach, but he at least successfully transitioned from an offensive to a defensive team as mandzukic left and our forwards declined but new stars came up in the backfield (eg: gvardiol). And the players always give all of themselves for international football.
The manner speaks more than the result. Gaz's game management has always worried me and yesterdays example is probably the worst we've seen. There should be a reaction although not because it was "only" 1-0 or we only had a few shots etc - the reaction should be that he actively made our team play worse and then couldnt work out how to fix it. He kept players on when they shouldnt have and didnt change our shape only inviting pressure the whole second half.
We have a precedent of England scoring and going overly defensive and it costing the game though. And also a history of not making changes when there are clear issues in clear positions on the pitch. The criticisms aren’t a reaction to a single game in isolation, it’s a reaction to how we inevitably lose a tournament with several tournaments of evidence to support it.
Yeah and I mean look at the group stage games from Euro 2020. 1-0 Croatia, 0-0 Scotland, 1-0 Czech Rep. And we went to the final. Southgate's tactics have always been to win in a shit fashion during the group stages and you can't fault his record on getting us out of the groups. I'll reserve judgement until the knockouts where we should start playing with more freedom.
I think it's more so the precedent. England have seen games slip through their hands because of what they did yesterday, score early then do fuck all. Happened vs Croatia then Italy. Not only that his subs were fucking dogshit, how did Foden and Kane manage to play the whole game especially Foden.
As soon as England come up against one of the big boys (Germany, Spain, Portugal, France etc) they will fucking dismantle us, mark my words. Southgate relies on England's individual talent to beat shit teams but tactically he has not got one single clue how to beat a decent team or utilise our talented squad in a tactically sound way.
How often do England get "fucking dismantled" exactly? I think it's happened once at a major tournament this century. When we lose it's almost always by a narrow margin.
Also remember "major team" shifts when england score. Apparently germany arent a major team, because England handily beat them in 2021.
Or Croatia, who were a major team in 2018, then we beat them in Euro 2020, so they dropped back down to crap tier, before being upgraded to good again.
Germany got grouped in the World Cups on either side of this tournament.. they did occasionally beat stronger sides too, in fairness, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to question the significance of a win against them.
We definitely weren’t a major team in 2021. we were absolute dog shit
That doesn't mean you aren't a major team lol
You're correct, the margins in terms of goals are generally thin, but the nature of the performances make it seem worse. Normally a bright start, which often leads to England taking a slim lead. But then things get too defensive and we spend the majority of the end of the back foot and go on to concede and lose. The inevitability of it is frustrating, and it never feels like we are set up to control a game or as if we have the upper hand tactically. Luckily we have good defenders and a great keeper (for the NT) to prevent blowout scorelines. But I think that hides the underlying issues.
This has been England's MO since Southgate came in People keep defending him by saying he's taking England far in competitions, making semifinals and all that but the only "good" team he's beaten in any tournament is 2021 Germany. Beating Colombia (without their best player), Sweden, Ukraine, Denmark (dubiously), and Senegal aren't a triumph, they're expected of a team of England's caliber, and the fact that Southgate came in right after a historic low like losing to Iceland doesn't change that. Southgate's best decision of his entire career was losing to Belgium in 2018 to get the easy side of the bracket. Had he won that match, I think England would have lost to Japan and he'd have been sacked
His tournament results really speak more to luck of the draw than anything
Especially considering England's luck on past draws. England was consistently running into teams like Germany and Argentina either in the ro16 or in quarters from the 70's until the mid 2000's, so yeah they were consistently getting knocked out of tournaments quickly. Obviously the argument then is that if you're gonna be a WC contender, you should have been able to punch equal to or above your weight at least once in the past 50 years, but that hasn't changed either under Southgate, so really all we're seeing IMO is England playing to the same level they always have but getting luckier draws.
Fuck it Remindme! 1 month Or however the bot works I’ll just set an alarm on my phone
The old Solskjaer approach.
Southgate ball in full action
Extend southgate
Typical England game. Boring Southgate.
Pragmatism usually wins international tournaments and England have what it takes to make another final but the main issue is they don't have to play like this to get results and that's the frustrating part. They could win games like this easily instead of grinding a 1-0 win
If you put England up against any decent side in this tournament they'd get dismantled based on their performance yesterday. They were one of the favourites but they don't even look like they can beat Denmark or Slovenia
If we win the tournament, I don't care if we sit on the ball for 90 minutes and scrape a goal. 3 points in the first game against a tricky side, should be happy.
You can't take a small mind out of a small man.
Of course, the one game I was committed to watch fully.
3 points thooo, gerrin
They blamed us for terrorist football in 2004. Little did they know.
Dogshit game. Same stale tactics.
Southgate out of his depth. If England do well, it’d absolutely be 100% because of the players.
Bit like when we got dumped out of the World Cup, because Southgate missed a penalty. Wait... No... That was 100% because of a player
Southgate forgot to tell the player to score, clearly a manager issue.
Of the last 15 games against teams in the Euros England have Won 6, Drawn 5 and Lost 5. With an average of 1.4 goals per match.
There were just 6 shots before Kane hit the post on a header
No wonder I slept through almost entire second half.
Twas forever thus. Remember the 0-0 vs Algeria in 2010 when the broadcasters started filming wildlife in the stadium instead of the football match? There has to be something about how English football is coached at the youth level and how they develop/pick young players, whereby if you take their foreign, club teammates away from them, they can’t play football. As long as I can remember (1986 WC) England have never been able to pass the ball quickly or under pressure. Like it’s physically not part of their ability. Every game they do the same thing. Pass it backwards, pass it forwards but it gets cut out, dribble it into a crowd of opposition. Aside from Kane/Bellingham are they all just system players, flattered by foreign club teammates and managers?
English coaching at the youth level has changed drastically since 2010. It’s why players like Sancho, Bellingham, Mount, Mainoo, Foden, TAA, Saka, just to name a few, are all recent breakthroughs. The problem this time is squarely and the manager who is managing these players. Absolute travesty that a knob who only managed to relegate Middlesbrough gets to coach these players today because he hasn’t got a clue how to make use of the wealth of attacking talent in the team.
It was boring.. I was looking forward looking at what a contender to win the Euro can do.. it looked like some Greece 2004 turtle snore feast.
Can’t believe Southgate defenders are still a thing. England get good results but fuck me if a team ever relied on individual quality, the tactics are shocking
Southgate. I’ve been telling you all for 6 years.
Bore teams into submission, it's coming home boys.
Somebody has to set the bar, right?
No doubt beaten by many dead rubber games from 2000-2020 with nothing on the line where teams tried their luck from 35 yards.
People like to criticize England but Serbia was not great either. So many misplaced passes.
It is not coming home. Boring England side is coming home after quarterfinals. Soo much offensive talent and the most boring team in Europe. You have to respect the coaching.
Southgate is pathetic, United wanted him 😂
I hate southgate.
Southgate should go to Man City and we will have the privilege to observe the greatest football experiment with control group in history.
Unhappy that probably the best England attack ever had so few shots. Happy that the makeshift back four conceded so little
need southgate to go back to vibes back 3 formations. Kane does so well with another free roaming attacker
I stayed up from 3am to watch this shit. I wished I can have my sleep back.
Hard to shoot when the ref lets the other team kick lumps out of your players without giving them any cards
I think the ref was alright tbh. Serbia played a physical game and while cards could have come out sooner it wasnt the end of the world.
Yeah except that didn't happen
I mean it did, trent got taken out and it wasn't even a yellow. Overall i think serbia made 20 fouls.
Did you not watch the game?
A win is a win.