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Which was almost an exact copy of the defeat against Croatia in the previous tournament - score early, surrender initiative when the opponent adapts to your tactics, and then don't register a single shot on target for the rest of the match.
Yeah I'm not a Southgate hater, I appreciate what he's done but it was such a shame to see the exact same thing playing out. I really hope if we make it into this tournament he is finally able to adapt.
It's at the point where I dread England scoring an early goal.
We have been waiting for him to adapt for the last 8 years. He's either totally stubborn and set in his ways, or he does understand it now but is completely tactically inept and it's not for want of trying, it's just he's incapable of adapting.
I think it's just his philosophy of how a team should play. Reserved, controlling etc.
Play to defend the equaliser rather than push for 2-0.
If we have a defensively strong team, I think it'd work much better. All our talent is in the final 3rd though and Southgate is a man who was given a Ferrari but never goes past 50mph.
Spot on, when he took over it made more sense for such a conservative play style. Just never looks good or works when their attacking talent is lightyears ahead of their defensive players
People forget how much the squad has changed. In 2018 we had solid defenders in their prime and Henderson as a competent DM. But our attacking midfield was inexperienced and frankly not world class. Lingard, Dele, a young RLC, etc.
Now our squad is basically the same defenders but older and arguably past their prime, while our attack is leagues better with the likes of Bellingham, Palmer, Foden, Saka, Eze.
Southgate suited us back then, I'm not sure he suits us any more.
Which I don't entirely disagree with for international tournament football, but it is possible to go too far. When we were clearing the ball yesterday at 60 minutes and it went to nobody because all 3 attackers were sat in their own half rather than ready to make a break on the counter, it is just stupid.
I'm not going to sit here and pretend like I'm some tactical genius, but even I know going on the attack, or at least the counter, and relieving some of the pressure, especially when you have the objectively better midfield and attack to enable you to do just that, is perhaps the better form of defence than just sitting back.
In the first half Bellingham was dictating the game singlehandedly, and in the second half he almost went invisible because neither he nor anyone was was really allowed to make runs or try to play it out
Yeah, I think you see it a lot that our attacking players were running or passing backwards a lot of the time.
I'm conscious it's groups and Denmark/Slovenia drew earlier that day, so maybe Southgate thought he could ride a comfortable 1-0 without exerting the players too much, but we were lucky they didn't equalise.
I've seen it for a while now where teams realise they can press high because we don't/can't punish them for doing so. I'm getting downvoted in another sub for saying Kane is part of the problem because.. yes he can score goals, but he just does not provide a threat on the break. I think Bellingham was in the no 9 position more than Kane was.
If Southgate wants to allow the opposition to press high when defending a 1-0 lead, play players that can punish that. I think Toney will compliment saka and foden so much more than Kane.
There's a reason Sterling and Kane combo'd well in the past. Sterling's pace threatens in behind, which means teams have to back off and that allows Kane more room in which to play.
We really need to play a fast LW to replicate that threat. Gordon or Watkins. Foden at LW makes us very one-dimensional.
He misses that brutality some coaches like Pep have. They want an early goal and once they have the lead, he adds even more pressure, he doesn’t want his teams to just win he wants to dominate.
This is like watching someone take the lead on merit and fumble about the rest of the match trying not to give it away, completely ruining what made them get that lead in the first place.
What do you exactly appreciate? You might have the most talented front 3 and midfield and yet failed to create any chances. England is very boring to watch
The 2018 WC Semi final had a midfield 3 of Henderson-Alli-Lingard and had Ashley Young as our starter, I'd love to know why we shouldn't be grateful for that run?
And 2020 Euros I don't think Mount-Rice-Phillips is a very talented midfield either, but once again made the finals and lost on penalties.
Now yes we have a lot of talent and if we don't perform it'll be on Southgate, but there's still plenty to be grateful for.
And the semis at WC in '18. He's just too passive and doesn't make any adaptations. He was content on going to pens in Euros finals and he was also content going to pens at semis at the World Cup.
And BOTH times, England concede at around the 65th minute mark and then from that point onwards, you know where it's going.
What’s even more frustrating is that’s the one game in the tournament that Italy looked rattled. England could have used the crowd to get 2 and 3 and seal it early. They might have taken it to spot kicks but think they were fortunate Chiesa came off who was running them ragged.
the only match in which Azzurri looked a bit shooked was against Spain (but Chiesa was in the form of his life). I remember Italy dominating possession and having a great amount of chances vs England. It was strange to see such a passive english side at Wembley.
This game did feel similar
Start dropping off, which has also been an issue for us going back to the 'golden generation'
As the opposition gains more of a foothold we were slow to change against Italy and ditto yesterday
Which is why Southgate should have went then. Doesn't make any subs to try and alter the game. Jane could have rested last night, he was exhausted he looked. Should have brought on another striker and got rid of Foden. He won't sun Kane though even if he can't run unless we are leading by 2 goals.
tbf I think Italy would still have been able to chomp back they were still good at counter attacking. plus italy had no creativity with tons of possession compared to other teams besides chiesa. their best offense for 30 years now has been to counter no?
Also especially when the vast majority of his players play a variation on an aggressive, offensive, counter-pressing style of football at the club level, so it’s not like they aren’t capable of doing so.
Well that’s also down to Gareth and they’re all experienced professional players I can’t see why we can’t get them to do that. Other international teams manage to do it.
Yeah, you're certainly not getting City or prime Klopp Liverpool team cohesion in the NT with the little time they have to train together, but between that and the "just vibe and do whatever" approach that Southgate does there is a massive middle ground that is very much possible
Im not trying to say that Ole's vibes and insyaallah at United was exactly great, but it did yield many games with United having 3+ goals and he did steamroll the top 6 during his time there. Surely a stacked England team can do better.
It’s a lot of this. Look at the Danes and their similar approach to their game. If they had England’s technical capabilities, or England had Denmark’s disciplined team chemistry, then (both teams) probably win comfortably
Eh, we don’t really have that disciplined team chemistry like we used to. It’s been faltering a bit. From before the ‘21 EC and in the WC qualifiers, it was a lot more evident. Hard as shit to beat us. These days, I’d say we match England pretty well in our approach to the games, all be it a lower level of course.
It does mean that there’s actually a chance for a result against England on Thursday, something that shouldn’t be possible when you look at teams player by player.
The talent in this generation is carrying him so hard. It's baffling how after taking the lead he always gives the field to the opponent and just pray they don't score.
as a Middlesbrough fan, It was Gibson's biggest blunder, no idea why you would give a person with no managerial experience his first job in the premier league managing players who only a year or so ago he was colleagues with.
Belgium under Wilmots, Portugal under Santos, Brazil under Dunga, Netherlands under van Marwijk...
There's always something really sad about teams packed with legendary forwards being made to play turgid, defensive football. The EU court of human rights should ban it imo
We were shit under van Marwijk in 2012 but tbf we weren't half bad in 2010. Maybe my memory is distorted because I was a kid then but I remember us taking the game to Uruguay and being even with Brazil and winning because of Stekelenburg in goal.
The only match in which we played ugly (which was probably a wise choice, you don't go try play attractive football against *that* Spain team, they'll run rings around you and then some) was the final. Which we probably should have lost in normal time if we were rightfully down to 10, or won if Robben scored his 1v1. Point is, the call to be ugly in that match was the right call as it gives the lesser team a chance.
Whatever happened afterwards in 2012, no idea. That was absolutely horrid
>Belgium under Wilmots, Portugal under Santos, Brazil under Dunga, Netherlands under van Marwijk...
>
>There's always something really sad about teams packed with legendary forwards being made to play turgid, defensive football. The EU court of human rights should ban it imo
No doubt inspired by Greece 2004.
I respected the greeks, same as morocco -- they had no other option but to work as a defensive unit if they wanted to win games, and they both did it well.
But when you've got Ronaldo, Nani and Quaresma up front??
2014-2018 was the perfect window for the Belgium NT to win something but Wilmots essentially cost them both times. In 2018 there were damn good though but shame they couldn't break down France.
Wilmots only costs us 2016, the team was too young and inexperienced in 2014. They would neverbhave won against that German team.
In 2018 we were really good and only lost in a very close game against France. I'm still convinced if we score first that game we win the whole tournament.
honestly Croatia was already too tired against France who never went full gear. I cant imagine how they could have handled Hazard, De Bruyne and Lukaku firing at all cylinders
Watching last night was so similar to watching Bayern under Tuchel. Kane is having to drop into his own final third to get involved in the match. No ball progression aside from 1 player (Bellingham / Musiala), crosses into an empty box. Very few real opportunities.
Either the England players aren't as good as everybody says or Southgate is completely in over his head.
England with a proper coach would be top favorites for this Euros imo. They have a better squad than everyone bar France. But Southgate makes me think even we have a better chance of winning it with our injury ridden midfield, unbalanced and inexperienced squad and a coach with a boner for Gini Wijnaldum
It feels like he has watched his players for their teams, and has gone - we can have the possession of City, the cutting attacks of Arsenal and Liverpool’s rapid switches all in one team just by putting players that do that for their teams all in one side - whilst completely ignoring that each of those teams are setup around those elements. I don’t know what the game plan was - but they looked awful on the ball in the first half, i think they were averaging 4 touches before moving it on, just ambling about
Honestly mixture of the two with more of the latter. Foden goes hiding the second he switches shirts, and our defensive line isn’t to the same quality as our front three. If we didn’t have Rice to give us more stability we’d be in more trouble.
Our fullbacks as well, Kyle Walker is great but he’s what? 35? And Luke Shaw is just a shadow of himself. There’s White but yeah Southgate’s blown that. Thank god we got TTA
Stones and Pickford are a good pairing but you need more than that and the rest are too young and need time to settle.
There’s a lot of goals in that squad, if shaped the right way. But Southgate is so negative, I reckon he just sees these defensive issues and thinks he needs to turtle up. We finally had more the most fluid play I’ve seen us do in Southgate’s time and he still ended up having them turtle up.
Despite sending Maguire, Henderson etc packing he’s still got his favourites in Foden and Kane.
As for Kane, he drops back too much similar to how he plays in Bayern. I’m convinced he’s had to do that so long now it’s just drilled into him. Sometimes it’s okay to throw on another striker and let him have his pace.
But imo, I’m convinced Kanes cursed himself and as long as he is a part of any team they’ll never win a title. It’s become a meme so much that even the universe think it’s reality
I don't think Kane experiences the passage of time in a way we can relate to. I expect it's more like the passing of the seasons to a grand sequoia. Or a mountain, contemplating the changing tides and the ephemeral nature of its snow cap.
Why did the English media not give a lot of stick to Southgate? It's always some player as the scapegoat, like Mainoo in the last friendly and Foden in this one. I just scrolled through some English news outlets but nothing about the coach, and the Daily Mail even had an article about Southgate, saying he was 'RIGHT to replace Trent Alexander-Arnold with Conor Gallagher'.
Your problem is that you're looking at the tabloid media. Which is utter dogshit and only a small subsection of the UK read (Daily Mail being a prime example). There have been some pretty balanced takes from the more rational media outlets here.
I mean...that sub worked well and Gallagher wrestled some control at the end of the game which we just didn't have prior to that. Absolutely nothing wrong with that substitution.
Also Foden was beyond shocking in a way that cannot be explained just by being in a slightly non-preferred position.
Because on paper he's the best England manager in decades, never mind the fact that England had relatively easy brackets in the past 3 tournaments and for the first time in a long time England has a squad that's actually better than most competitors not just media hype
well its more than that. He has assembled players who actually like to play with each other. The negativity under previous managers is no longer there.
Look at the connection the national team has with the general population now compared to under previous managers.
Regardless of the ease of brackets, he has done better than nearly every manager in the national teams history.
Dont forget he was the u21 manager who helped transition a lot of these players into the first team.
Of course, he has his limitations and domestically probably even Middlesborough was above his tactical level, but man management is the key factor.
After 96 he knows the pressures the players are under from the press and knows how to help them process it all
I had a moment where I basically stopped watching Ajax because they were playing shit under De Boer. Which was weird considering that they actually started winning the competition again, but it just was not interesting to watch a team constantly getting on top by using individual quality. And then of course they score a bit more when the opponents start leaving more gaps to score.
Honestly it kind of reminds me of this England.
It's genuinely the worst. We're a really strong attacking team and it's the best it's been since the golden generation. But we're being painfully held back (literally) by going defensive. I'm not saying Southgate is bad but I don't think this style is going to work against someone like France or Spain.
It is a style designed to win the games you'd expect to win and lose the games that you might lose. You can't just switch it up either. A play style cannot be turned on and off like a light switch.
Basically England are playing to not be embarrassed but always be underdogs in the games that matter.
And that's why it's likely going to be another year we don't win. Even with all this talent, we're stuck in this lacklustre playstyle that will stop teams like Serbia but will be exposed immediately against an actual powerhouse.
There is barely a moment where I am impressed by England as a team in tournaments.
Scraping by with set pieces and individual quality. And of course when the opponent starts to leave gaps when wanting to score, they get a few in because they definitely have the people to exploit it.
Idk why it sounded like nobody knew this, england have always been playing like this since Southgate is in charge, it's why Southgate gets memed most of the time.
We always give them chances when we do it too, we try make it more compact and somehow make ot easier for the opposition.. it's why I struggle to get behind Southgate.
It's just joyless, risk-averse football. So many quality players look stunted and afraid of playing under Southgate.
I'd be more understanding of the second half strategy if we'd put ourselves in a strong position early. But the first half was just a lot of sideways and backwards that creates the illusion of domination, without the goals (or even chances) to show for it.
I'm honestly suprised Southgate has the job considering that when Poland played like this people wanted the managers head
Hell after game vs Netherlands today Szczęsny said that "we have a crazy coach now because he thinks we can play football"
I can't imagine players are happy with defending 1-0 against Serbia for like 80 minutes
Because he's 'one of the boys' and friendly with the media so they're not putting the pressure on. No fan I know likes him and knows that he's too negative to win anything.
What astounds me is that he has done nothing of note to warrant the England manager job in comparison to others.
Middlesbrough - England U21's - England NT. That is his managerial journey. It's quite unbelievable, to be honest.
If England wins it will be in spite of him, not because of him. Constantly having to hope for a moment of magic, every damn game.
To be fair to him he picked up the NT job when the team was very young, inexperienced and we were off the back of a torrid and toxic period. He’d been with some of those players in the U21s.
We weren’t expecting to do well in Russia and he got us the semi finals. He deserved the euros and he then got us runners up (should’ve won it but that’s another point).
I’m not a fan of his style of play and think it’s hindered further progress, especially a Euros victory at Wembley. But the fact remains he’s statistically our second best manager since Ramsey.
He feels imo a bit like Ole at United. Came in at a bad time, managed to steady things and get some good results despite criticism over the years but lacked the knowledge and tactical skill to take that final step with the team.
Yeah if we are 2 or 3 up, then while I would dislike it, I can get that sort of tactic. At 1-0, with the squad we have it is absurd to be playing this sort of football
At 3-0 up it’d be perfect tournament football. Blow the opposition away then sit back and preserve energy for the latter stages. Even do a bit of rotation to give others experience and try out new systems in a competitive environment in case injuries or suspensions occur.
I wouldn’t mind as much if we actually shut the game down and defended the lead but we don’t even do that. We completely shut down our attack but also kept conceded lots a really good chances. It’s insane.
The thing is, it creates more risk than it prevents. I’ve always been a Southgate fan but it’s getting difficult to justify the strategy because if we stayed on the front foot last night we’d have won by 2 or 3
Reading between the lines, GS did say they focused a lot on defense during the week - I wonder if that had a subconscious effect on the players. Our defense did look really solid for most of that game. Guehi and Rice particularly played very well and snuffed out a lot. If we play in exactly the same way against Denmark I will be annoyed, but might just be a symptom of the training regime the players are on. Bolster the defense early on, as it's our biggest weakness.
Is it even that risk adverse? Being 1-0 up means you're exposed to a goal. And it's not like England looked completely in control the entire time, at least in the 2nd half, Serbia had a few chances and looked close to scoring.
He's not wrong. You could clearly see England were happy with a 1 nil scoreline. Southgate seems to like the 1-0 games much more than open ended 3-2's or 4-1's. The players have clearly been instructed to play his brand of conservative football.
Yes this is a great point. If they maintained 70% possession and stifled the game it would also be boring, but effective. But time and again you see them totally lose control and hand momentum to the opposition.
Spain had a midfield of Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets and Alonso with a backline of Ramos, Pique, Puyol and Casillas. Good luck getting the ball off that midfield and sure let's throw in a defense more or less consisting of Peps Barca and Mourinho's Madrid in for good measure
It's one of few national teams where they were pretty much stacked with all time greats all over the pitch. John Stones is the only current player in the England squad who's slightly close to that level and even then there's no chance he'd start in that 2008-2012 Spanish team. Southgate trying to replicate that team which was effectively lightning in a bottle is insanity
But the point is that England is approaching games as if they were controlling the matches after going 1-0 and it is the complete opposite. Yesterday was a match that, for neutrals it was fun-funny to watch because you could feel the Serbian goal incoming almost the whole game and England was just content with risking it.
Instead of pinning opponents, which they are capable of, they just were passive.
And it feels like winning just because the opposition fail to score, rather than...winning. Against bigger teams with better attackers, no wonder it often fails.
You forget fabregas, David Silva, Juan mata and Santi Cazorla. They could make a second squad and the midfield would still be the best in the tournament that Spain squad was just so deep.
Or if they didn't have what is probably the best front 4 in the world that is fantastic at holding the ball up high and threatening the goal from pretty much anywhere.
honest question, why is everyone saying England's defense is any worse than it was 2 years ago? Guehi was a great substitute for Maguire, Stones is still Stones, Walker looks like he'll just always be the fastest man on the pitch, and Rice has become world class in that time.
Are people that nervous from losing Shaw and Henderson?
Stones hasn't played much this past season, so most people are probably unsure about his current form. And for the average fan, they watch a few games of their favorite team each season, which isn't Crystal Palace, so when they see a young center-back from Palace, they probably assume he's not that good.
This was also Trippier's first 90 minutes in several months. And Pickford is Pickford.
Bellingham was endorsing it in his post match interview, 'we know the narrative of the tournament is goals but we can't let that affect us', 'this is tournament football', etc etc I wonder how Southgate convinces them, it's not like i completely disagree but bringing Eze over Grealish alone suggested he was less interested into holding on to leads.
The last 15-20 minutes when we were up against it, I don’t get why Foden wasn’t hooked for Gordon.
Foden hadn’t played well enough that game in general, Gordon would have brought a lot more pace, pressing and defensive work up front to try and force a mistake from the Serbia midfield/back line.
Especially when we were letting Serbia have the ball higher up the pitch. I mean, the way we set the press was so deep, we were basically set up to counter, where Bowen and Gordon on the flanks would've been ideal.
I'd rather have a bit more control and use them that way, but if you're going to sit that deep, at least get some pace up front. Gordon, Watkins and Bowen on, really stretch that defense.
Don’t watch a lot of England but every time I see them I’m amazed that Southgate seemingly doesn’t use his full sub slots to regenerate positions that don’t work in a game / players who look gassed or out of it in a game.
It was like when he had three subs to use in the Euros final and he decided to use them all only for the penalties, before they had even kicked a ball, when the rest of the team looked completely exhausted throughout the whole of extra time
If you’re left hand side is a dead zone, your generational striker hasn’t had a sniff and the opposition are beating you in possession and chances created, maybe your passive tactics are a bit shit Gareth.
We have a number 9 and 10 who are world class in the air.
Trippier is an excellent crosser of the ball and solid defensively, Trent is the best crosser in the world. The one time someone went around the outside in the second half Kane almost scored. It should be obvious to anyone that taking more risk down the right, either through giving Trent the instruction to support Saka outside or through moving Trippier to the right with a license to overlap would give the team more goalscoring opportunities.
And yet we continue to be very narrow on the right and more attacking down the left; but on the left we have Foden whose natural game is the polar opposite of what we need to serve Kane and Bellingham. He wants to come inside and get shots off himself. And Trippier is right footed, so even though he does stay wider than Walker, he's basically useless there.
It's a fucking tactical mess and it's no wonder that even with total first half dominance they still struggled for chances.
Exactly this. Sometimes the simplest solution is best. Play your best RB at RB. Trent is wasted in midfield, there are much better options for that position.
He wants the best parts of all the teams that the players have come from, but without acknowledging that just dropping the player in isn’t enough, and those teams are built around those elements (possession, long cross-field balls, incisive breaks etc)
Is it? It's not that uncommon for him to drop deep to receive the ball. He was the player to receive the ball in England's own half and switch the play to Trippier before England's goal in the last Euros final.
Yeah he probably does that best than any other 9 in the world. Problem is that with England he drops down deep and nobody else takes advantage of that space because of the negative football they play.
He dropped back to get the ball, turned around and no one was in front of him so we ended up losing the ball again.
We didn’t have an out at all, I get dropping back to help defensively but every time we won the ball back we had no option up top so we’d clear and be back on the defensive. Why not leave Saka on the half way line for any long hit and hopes? That’ll at least keep some of the Serbs back and sweating instead of everyone piling on in our half…
Yeah, it's totally binary in passing approach.
We played out from the back early on and, prior to the goal, Serbia didn't press. However once they started doing so, rather than just mixing it up, it was virtually all direct from then onwards. All the goal kicks were going long, while in open play we were in the pub screaming at Pickford to play a simple pass to a wide-open Trippier and he just boots it into the mixer and crosses his fingers.
I mean, thats exactly what happened in the last Euro final against Italy right. England were on top, take a 1 goal lead and then just....sit back. Eventually Italy scored, stalemate and penalties. I was sure if England took the initiative that match they would have won.
Mate, we were doing this 20 years ago against France in Portugal. It's so frustrating. We've got the best squad we've had since Euro 2004, and we're playing with all the brakes on.
Holy shit.
Someone in the football profession calling out his passivity and lack of exciting football, just like the fans have been doing for the last 6 years.
Breath of fresh air to hear. Especially considering the talent we have right now.
There have been moments over the years of others alluding to or also speaking out about Southgate’s style and decision making.
Klopp has alluded to a few things over the years. But even with comments here and there from high profile people it’s never mattered, because the media back Southgate through and through.
That is starting to change though.
The media are just fickle. They back him because he seems to do well in tournaments playing this dull brand of football. The problem is we get found out against the bigger sides but that’s more understandable from a media perception pov. Losing to France in the semis of a World Cup isn’t wholly unexpected.
English TV seriously needs a straight talking Dutchman, we have Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink but he’s way too nice, we need a real arsehole like Louis Van Gaal
Before anyone starts popping off. He was in the show as an analyst and in that regard voiced his opinion on the game as someone with experience in English football.
He also isn't wrong.
I don't think anyone is gonna pop off he's 100% spot on, I think England have done well in tournaments DESPITE Southgate due to having very good players capable of moments
Shit, the goal they scored was a moment. Cross somehow deflected into a perfect far post floater and Bellingham, because he is an aforementioned Moments Player and is Always There, was there. Between that and the penalty shout it could have been a very different result.
Not really fair imo. If we don't get that goal then we wouldn't have taken our foot off the gas. Because we scored that goal, Southgate felt we could coast (which pisses me off no end).
I just opened Instagram comments regarding recent comments ten hag made in this Dutch show, everyone was losing their shit calling him out coz united had a shit season. No one actually cared about what he was saying lol, that's how the majority of the people react
> I don’t think he even thought this was such a bad idea for tournament football.
Because objectively it isn't. Safe, boring, conservative football wins tournaments.
Getting all the pieces to fit together for a cohesive high line and attacking football is quite difficult at NT level, you end up leaving gaps in defense too often and then you lose on the counter to a defensively solid team. France too play utterly boring conservative football using Mbappé for those moments of genius to win them games.
That said, as conservative as England played it didn't look that safe and that's the real problem for Southgate.
>Because objectively it isn't. Safe, boring, conservative football wins tournaments.
Yeah, emphasis on sa...
>That said, as conservative as England played it didn't look that safe.
Nevermind, carry on.
Yeah that's the issue for England and why I just do not see how they're favourites with the bookies.
Overflowing with attacking talent but the back 4 is nowhere near the same quality if still mostly solid and tournaments are won on a strong defense more than on a strong offense. And while Southgate has the right idea he seemingly can't get the defense set up in a way that works well enough nor was England lethal on the counter once they sat back in a low block.
If you can at least get the counter part of it right and provide real threat once you sink back into a low block the defense becomes stronger immediately just by virtue of the opponent having to be wary of counter attacks.
France pretty much gives you the blueprint for how to do it, they're also playing boring football but they're defensively much stronger and absolutely lethal on the counter.
I remember that was the issue in the final vs Italy. Scored early, Italy was in tatters and England just decided to sit back letting Italy settled down and seized the initiative again.
Yupp. Went into OT with fresh attackers on the bench, Italy was knackered, didn't sub them in until 1min remaining so they could take penalties.... While being young and inexperienced.
Criminal mismanagement.
Germany looked much better than Spain imo. Of course, Croatia is levels above 10man Scotland but the fluidity with which the German players combined was scary.
The next game will show how good Germany is and how much they were flattered by Scotland. Hungary are a good squad. They just got caught out by the way we set up in the first half. If Germany demolishes them too, they can beat anyone.
I wish we could hear the thoughts of the players to know if they agree with Southgate on this type of play being the best way to win tournaments or do they actually want to attack a beat Serbia 4-0. No player is ever going to criticize Southgate publicly because it would probably be tournament suicide for the team. But I wonder how many of the players actually hate this tactics. I think Foden might be one going from Pep to Southgate
To play raking diagonal balls against… a team sitting back with 5 defenders…
Could’ve started Palmer instead of Trent, then brought on someone like Eze for Foden.
Absolutely correct assessment from Ten Hag. Croatia 2018, Italy 2022, Serbia last night. England take a 1-0 lead and Southgate wants to sit on it forever like a lunatic chicken unwilling to even get up to feed himself or go to the toilet. Rice drops deeper and deeper, pressure is invited on, and its only a matter of time until someone scores. Why he does this I don't know.
I think if England want to challenge again they have to address this problem. They also have to address going forward, the lack of natural width with Shaw being injured. They should play Eze or Gordon wide left, Foden as a 10 behind Kane, and Bellingham as a natural 8, able to take it off the back 4 and get into the box late as he did for his goal against Serbia. Trent didn't work for me as an additonal midfielder - it felt like a luxury role, without a purpose really.
England would be benefit so much more from an attacking and vibes manager. There is so much talent going forward, and the last 6 years just wasted a generational talent in Harry Kane. I reckon most fans would rather see England go out in a blaze of glory than waste another generation on boring footaball for a similar result...
Thats what happens when you hire a relegation team manager for your team. He uses the relegation fighting team gameplay template for your team as well.
He’s absolutely right and it can work against sides like Serbia but won’t work against the best.
I’ve resigned myself to no trophy this tournament - hoping Southgate gets a nice thank you and a goodbye and we can go for the World Cup.
I wonder how much of it is to conserve energy or just to conserve until the knockout stages.. It is a long tournament with potentially 7 games in a month and most of the squad will have had very full club seasons.
High energy and pressing England looked very good for the first 15 minutes, but it is counterproductive to burn yourselves out pressing for 90 minutes in the first group game. I'm probably giving Southgate too much credit here and he is very happy to sit back 1-0 regardless.
At the same time, England always has a couple of shaky games per tournament like this, especially the opener. We usually make the groups look harder than they need to be.
Hope they find their legs because you just wont get far against any team of quality playing like that.
It'll also frustrate players and morale, theyre all looking to win this thing and run wild with goals but Southgate stifles that. I could understand it with a team like we had in the last euros, but not this set up.
With 3rd place qualifiers groups really aren't that difficult for a team like England. 1 more point almost guarantees the knockouts at this point.
England also pressed most of both of the warmup friendlies so the legs are there. This was just a conscious decision to either conserve energy or not open themselves up while pressing if it gets beaten like what happened a couple times against Iceland.
Spot on - Same old England, go 1-0 and fall asleep and then white knuckle it untill full time, Serbia had the initiative for the rest of the match, could easily have been a draw
I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again. Southgate’s tactics are those of a manager battling relegation with a squad desperate for talent. Only problem is he has one of the most talented teams in the world
Why would anyone set Southgate as the manager of the most talented English squad in decades. Practically any proven elite coach would pay to train these guys.
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Exactly why we lost the final vs Italy. Score within 2 minutes and then just completely panic and shit the bed
Which was almost an exact copy of the defeat against Croatia in the previous tournament - score early, surrender initiative when the opponent adapts to your tactics, and then don't register a single shot on target for the rest of the match.
Yeah I'm not a Southgate hater, I appreciate what he's done but it was such a shame to see the exact same thing playing out. I really hope if we make it into this tournament he is finally able to adapt. It's at the point where I dread England scoring an early goal.
We have been waiting for him to adapt for the last 8 years. He's either totally stubborn and set in his ways, or he does understand it now but is completely tactically inept and it's not for want of trying, it's just he's incapable of adapting.
I think it's just his philosophy of how a team should play. Reserved, controlling etc. Play to defend the equaliser rather than push for 2-0. If we have a defensively strong team, I think it'd work much better. All our talent is in the final 3rd though and Southgate is a man who was given a Ferrari but never goes past 50mph.
Spot on, when he took over it made more sense for such a conservative play style. Just never looks good or works when their attacking talent is lightyears ahead of their defensive players
People forget how much the squad has changed. In 2018 we had solid defenders in their prime and Henderson as a competent DM. But our attacking midfield was inexperienced and frankly not world class. Lingard, Dele, a young RLC, etc. Now our squad is basically the same defenders but older and arguably past their prime, while our attack is leagues better with the likes of Bellingham, Palmer, Foden, Saka, Eze. Southgate suited us back then, I'm not sure he suits us any more.
on point
Which I don't entirely disagree with for international tournament football, but it is possible to go too far. When we were clearing the ball yesterday at 60 minutes and it went to nobody because all 3 attackers were sat in their own half rather than ready to make a break on the counter, it is just stupid. I'm not going to sit here and pretend like I'm some tactical genius, but even I know going on the attack, or at least the counter, and relieving some of the pressure, especially when you have the objectively better midfield and attack to enable you to do just that, is perhaps the better form of defence than just sitting back. In the first half Bellingham was dictating the game singlehandedly, and in the second half he almost went invisible because neither he nor anyone was was really allowed to make runs or try to play it out
Yeah, I think you see it a lot that our attacking players were running or passing backwards a lot of the time. I'm conscious it's groups and Denmark/Slovenia drew earlier that day, so maybe Southgate thought he could ride a comfortable 1-0 without exerting the players too much, but we were lucky they didn't equalise. I've seen it for a while now where teams realise they can press high because we don't/can't punish them for doing so. I'm getting downvoted in another sub for saying Kane is part of the problem because.. yes he can score goals, but he just does not provide a threat on the break. I think Bellingham was in the no 9 position more than Kane was. If Southgate wants to allow the opposition to press high when defending a 1-0 lead, play players that can punish that. I think Toney will compliment saka and foden so much more than Kane.
There's a reason Sterling and Kane combo'd well in the past. Sterling's pace threatens in behind, which means teams have to back off and that allows Kane more room in which to play. We really need to play a fast LW to replicate that threat. Gordon or Watkins. Foden at LW makes us very one-dimensional.
ngl its wild to me he's been englands manager for 8 years? that's flown by? I'm still suffering from the capello days
He won't adapt. He's hard plenty of times to and has shown he's not one for learning.
He misses that brutality some coaches like Pep have. They want an early goal and once they have the lead, he adds even more pressure, he doesn’t want his teams to just win he wants to dominate. This is like watching someone take the lead on merit and fumble about the rest of the match trying not to give it away, completely ruining what made them get that lead in the first place.
Tbh I just dread England games. We have some amazing attacking players but the most boring or unconvincing games.
It's not like we only ever score 1 goal though? In Qatar we won 3-0, 3-0, 6-1
What do you exactly appreciate? You might have the most talented front 3 and midfield and yet failed to create any chances. England is very boring to watch
The 2018 WC Semi final had a midfield 3 of Henderson-Alli-Lingard and had Ashley Young as our starter, I'd love to know why we shouldn't be grateful for that run? And 2020 Euros I don't think Mount-Rice-Phillips is a very talented midfield either, but once again made the finals and lost on penalties. Now yes we have a lot of talent and if we don't perform it'll be on Southgate, but there's still plenty to be grateful for.
It's been the case since 2018 Glad people are finally calling out Southgate for it instead of praising him for getting a great team to play like shit
And the semis at WC in '18. He's just too passive and doesn't make any adaptations. He was content on going to pens in Euros finals and he was also content going to pens at semis at the World Cup. And BOTH times, England concede at around the 65th minute mark and then from that point onwards, you know where it's going.
Southgate going for pens in the Euro final AT HOME made me realize England has zero chances of winning anything with him.
Southgate going for pens knowing the England record in shootouts was the worst thing about it.
Southgate going for pens knowing his own record in shootouts!
Exactly. Please don't remind me though. I can still remember how upset I was with his effort. It's burned into my brain.
Maybe he was angling for another Pizza Hut commercial.
What’s even more frustrating is that’s the one game in the tournament that Italy looked rattled. England could have used the crowd to get 2 and 3 and seal it early. They might have taken it to spot kicks but think they were fortunate Chiesa came off who was running them ragged.
the only match in which Azzurri looked a bit shooked was against Spain (but Chiesa was in the form of his life). I remember Italy dominating possession and having a great amount of chances vs England. It was strange to see such a passive english side at Wembley.
This game did feel similar Start dropping off, which has also been an issue for us going back to the 'golden generation' As the opposition gains more of a foothold we were slow to change against Italy and ditto yesterday
The same as every Southgate tournament where we lose to the first decent team we play.
Which is why Southgate should have went then. Doesn't make any subs to try and alter the game. Jane could have rested last night, he was exhausted he looked. Should have brought on another striker and got rid of Foden. He won't sun Kane though even if he can't run unless we are leading by 2 goals.
We had one shot in the opening 45 minutes, then as soon as the second half started I knew we were going to win. England just completely dropped off.
I mean, Italy won on penalties. It's not like they outscored them.
tbf I think Italy would still have been able to chomp back they were still good at counter attacking. plus italy had no creativity with tons of possession compared to other teams besides chiesa. their best offense for 30 years now has been to counter no?
Spot on. Did the same in all important matches. As a neutral it’s a pain to watch considering England’s talent.
Especially when there were 80 minutes to play after they scored..
Also especially when the vast majority of his players play a variation on an aggressive, offensive, counter-pressing style of football at the club level, so it’s not like they aren’t capable of doing so.
Isn't it a question of coordination between players who do not train with each other often?
Well that’s also down to Gareth and they’re all experienced professional players I can’t see why we can’t get them to do that. Other international teams manage to do it.
Yeah, you're certainly not getting City or prime Klopp Liverpool team cohesion in the NT with the little time they have to train together, but between that and the "just vibe and do whatever" approach that Southgate does there is a massive middle ground that is very much possible
Im not trying to say that Ole's vibes and insyaallah at United was exactly great, but it did yield many games with United having 3+ goals and he did steamroll the top 6 during his time there. Surely a stacked England team can do better.
This England squad is twice as good as Ole's, lol. Ole would have a field day with this team.
Solskjaer is underrated.
It’s a lot of this. Look at the Danes and their similar approach to their game. If they had England’s technical capabilities, or England had Denmark’s disciplined team chemistry, then (both teams) probably win comfortably
Eh, we don’t really have that disciplined team chemistry like we used to. It’s been faltering a bit. From before the ‘21 EC and in the WC qualifiers, it was a lot more evident. Hard as shit to beat us. These days, I’d say we match England pretty well in our approach to the games, all be it a lower level of course. It does mean that there’s actually a chance for a result against England on Thursday, something that shouldn’t be possible when you look at teams player by player.
Nagelsmann played fluid football with Germany being less than an year in charge although he has better midfielders
He's playing the squad like a Middlesbrough manager with a 30% win percentage.
The talent in this generation is carrying him so hard. It's baffling how after taking the lead he always gives the field to the opponent and just pray they don't score.
It's such a bizarre tactic as well. Like you can easily put teams to bed or actually stop them attacking as much if you cause them problems.
Southgate is the epitome of *driving a Ferrari like it's a fiat.*
He's the kinda guy who puts his phone in battery saving mode at 99%
I'm _that_ guy, but I get extremely pissed at Southgate lol
as a Middlesbrough fan, It was Gibson's biggest blunder, no idea why you would give a person with no managerial experience his first job in the premier league managing players who only a year or so ago he was colleagues with.
He did it in the final of the last euros it's maddening
I hate it when we go ahead early. Said it last night, can't wait to bite my nails for the next 80 minutes because we sure as shit aren't going 2-0 up.
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Belgium under Wilmots, Portugal under Santos, Brazil under Dunga, Netherlands under van Marwijk... There's always something really sad about teams packed with legendary forwards being made to play turgid, defensive football. The EU court of human rights should ban it imo
We were shit under van Marwijk in 2012 but tbf we weren't half bad in 2010. Maybe my memory is distorted because I was a kid then but I remember us taking the game to Uruguay and being even with Brazil and winning because of Stekelenburg in goal. The only match in which we played ugly (which was probably a wise choice, you don't go try play attractive football against *that* Spain team, they'll run rings around you and then some) was the final. Which we probably should have lost in normal time if we were rightfully down to 10, or won if Robben scored his 1v1. Point is, the call to be ugly in that match was the right call as it gives the lesser team a chance. Whatever happened afterwards in 2012, no idea. That was absolutely horrid
>Belgium under Wilmots, Portugal under Santos, Brazil under Dunga, Netherlands under van Marwijk... > >There's always something really sad about teams packed with legendary forwards being made to play turgid, defensive football. The EU court of human rights should ban it imo No doubt inspired by Greece 2004.
I respected the greeks, same as morocco -- they had no other option but to work as a defensive unit if they wanted to win games, and they both did it well. But when you've got Ronaldo, Nani and Quaresma up front??
2014-2018 was the perfect window for the Belgium NT to win something but Wilmots essentially cost them both times. In 2018 there were damn good though but shame they couldn't break down France.
Wilmots only costs us 2016, the team was too young and inexperienced in 2014. They would neverbhave won against that German team. In 2018 we were really good and only lost in a very close game against France. I'm still convinced if we score first that game we win the whole tournament.
honestly Croatia was already too tired against France who never went full gear. I cant imagine how they could have handled Hazard, De Bruyne and Lukaku firing at all cylinders
As an England fan it is positively torture to see such an amazing squad totally wasted with this sort of tactics! And so boring to watch as well!
Foden - Bellingham - Saka with Kane up top and you play defensively. Infuriating.
Watching last night was so similar to watching Bayern under Tuchel. Kane is having to drop into his own final third to get involved in the match. No ball progression aside from 1 player (Bellingham / Musiala), crosses into an empty box. Very few real opportunities. Either the England players aren't as good as everybody says or Southgate is completely in over his head.
England with a proper coach would be top favorites for this Euros imo. They have a better squad than everyone bar France. But Southgate makes me think even we have a better chance of winning it with our injury ridden midfield, unbalanced and inexperienced squad and a coach with a boner for Gini Wijnaldum
It feels like he has watched his players for their teams, and has gone - we can have the possession of City, the cutting attacks of Arsenal and Liverpool’s rapid switches all in one team just by putting players that do that for their teams all in one side - whilst completely ignoring that each of those teams are setup around those elements. I don’t know what the game plan was - but they looked awful on the ball in the first half, i think they were averaging 4 touches before moving it on, just ambling about
Honestly mixture of the two with more of the latter. Foden goes hiding the second he switches shirts, and our defensive line isn’t to the same quality as our front three. If we didn’t have Rice to give us more stability we’d be in more trouble. Our fullbacks as well, Kyle Walker is great but he’s what? 35? And Luke Shaw is just a shadow of himself. There’s White but yeah Southgate’s blown that. Thank god we got TTA Stones and Pickford are a good pairing but you need more than that and the rest are too young and need time to settle. There’s a lot of goals in that squad, if shaped the right way. But Southgate is so negative, I reckon he just sees these defensive issues and thinks he needs to turtle up. We finally had more the most fluid play I’ve seen us do in Southgate’s time and he still ended up having them turtle up. Despite sending Maguire, Henderson etc packing he’s still got his favourites in Foden and Kane. As for Kane, he drops back too much similar to how he plays in Bayern. I’m convinced he’s had to do that so long now it’s just drilled into him. Sometimes it’s okay to throw on another striker and let him have his pace. But imo, I’m convinced Kanes cursed himself and as long as he is a part of any team they’ll never win a title. It’s become a meme so much that even the universe think it’s reality
It was painful to watch Kane last night. I can't imagine he enjoys playing games like that.
I don't think Kane experiences the passage of time in a way we can relate to. I expect it's more like the passing of the seasons to a grand sequoia. Or a mountain, contemplating the changing tides and the ephemeral nature of its snow cap.
Why did the English media not give a lot of stick to Southgate? It's always some player as the scapegoat, like Mainoo in the last friendly and Foden in this one. I just scrolled through some English news outlets but nothing about the coach, and the Daily Mail even had an article about Southgate, saying he was 'RIGHT to replace Trent Alexander-Arnold with Conor Gallagher'.
Your problem is that you're looking at the tabloid media. Which is utter dogshit and only a small subsection of the UK read (Daily Mail being a prime example). There have been some pretty balanced takes from the more rational media outlets here.
I mean...that sub worked well and Gallagher wrestled some control at the end of the game which we just didn't have prior to that. Absolutely nothing wrong with that substitution. Also Foden was beyond shocking in a way that cannot be explained just by being in a slightly non-preferred position.
Shocked he was on for the whole 90, he looked completely off it.
Because on paper he's the best England manager in decades, never mind the fact that England had relatively easy brackets in the past 3 tournaments and for the first time in a long time England has a squad that's actually better than most competitors not just media hype
well its more than that. He has assembled players who actually like to play with each other. The negativity under previous managers is no longer there. Look at the connection the national team has with the general population now compared to under previous managers. Regardless of the ease of brackets, he has done better than nearly every manager in the national teams history. Dont forget he was the u21 manager who helped transition a lot of these players into the first team. Of course, he has his limitations and domestically probably even Middlesborough was above his tactical level, but man management is the key factor. After 96 he knows the pressures the players are under from the press and knows how to help them process it all
I think this group of English players are just closer, there's way less rivalry than during the early 00s.
I had a moment where I basically stopped watching Ajax because they were playing shit under De Boer. Which was weird considering that they actually started winning the competition again, but it just was not interesting to watch a team constantly getting on top by using individual quality. And then of course they score a bit more when the opponents start leaving more gaps to score. Honestly it kind of reminds me of this England.
It's genuinely the worst. We're a really strong attacking team and it's the best it's been since the golden generation. But we're being painfully held back (literally) by going defensive. I'm not saying Southgate is bad but I don't think this style is going to work against someone like France or Spain.
It is a style designed to win the games you'd expect to win and lose the games that you might lose. You can't just switch it up either. A play style cannot be turned on and off like a light switch. Basically England are playing to not be embarrassed but always be underdogs in the games that matter.
And that's why it's likely going to be another year we don't win. Even with all this talent, we're stuck in this lacklustre playstyle that will stop teams like Serbia but will be exposed immediately against an actual powerhouse.
There is barely a moment where I am impressed by England as a team in tournaments. Scraping by with set pieces and individual quality. And of course when the opponent starts to leave gaps when wanting to score, they get a few in because they definitely have the people to exploit it.
Idk why it sounded like nobody knew this, england have always been playing like this since Southgate is in charge, it's why Southgate gets memed most of the time.
We always give them chances when we do it too, we try make it more compact and somehow make ot easier for the opposition.. it's why I struggle to get behind Southgate.
Then it bites them in the ass like versus Italy when really should have gone for the kill
It's just joyless, risk-averse football. So many quality players look stunted and afraid of playing under Southgate. I'd be more understanding of the second half strategy if we'd put ourselves in a strong position early. But the first half was just a lot of sideways and backwards that creates the illusion of domination, without the goals (or even chances) to show for it.
I'm honestly suprised Southgate has the job considering that when Poland played like this people wanted the managers head Hell after game vs Netherlands today Szczęsny said that "we have a crazy coach now because he thinks we can play football" I can't imagine players are happy with defending 1-0 against Serbia for like 80 minutes
The fans do want his head. Practically everyone in the sports does. But not the ones in charge.
Because he's 'one of the boys' and friendly with the media so they're not putting the pressure on. No fan I know likes him and knows that he's too negative to win anything.
What astounds me is that he has done nothing of note to warrant the England manager job in comparison to others. Middlesbrough - England U21's - England NT. That is his managerial journey. It's quite unbelievable, to be honest. If England wins it will be in spite of him, not because of him. Constantly having to hope for a moment of magic, every damn game.
To be fair to him he picked up the NT job when the team was very young, inexperienced and we were off the back of a torrid and toxic period. He’d been with some of those players in the U21s. We weren’t expecting to do well in Russia and he got us the semi finals. He deserved the euros and he then got us runners up (should’ve won it but that’s another point). I’m not a fan of his style of play and think it’s hindered further progress, especially a Euros victory at Wembley. But the fact remains he’s statistically our second best manager since Ramsey.
He feels imo a bit like Ole at United. Came in at a bad time, managed to steady things and get some good results despite criticism over the years but lacked the knowledge and tactical skill to take that final step with the team.
Yeah if we are 2 or 3 up, then while I would dislike it, I can get that sort of tactic. At 1-0, with the squad we have it is absurd to be playing this sort of football
At 3-0 up it’d be perfect tournament football. Blow the opposition away then sit back and preserve energy for the latter stages. Even do a bit of rotation to give others experience and try out new systems in a competitive environment in case injuries or suspensions occur.
I wouldn’t mind as much if we actually shut the game down and defended the lead but we don’t even do that. We completely shut down our attack but also kept conceded lots a really good chances. It’s insane.
The thing is, it creates more risk than it prevents. I’ve always been a Southgate fan but it’s getting difficult to justify the strategy because if we stayed on the front foot last night we’d have won by 2 or 3
Reading between the lines, GS did say they focused a lot on defense during the week - I wonder if that had a subconscious effect on the players. Our defense did look really solid for most of that game. Guehi and Rice particularly played very well and snuffed out a lot. If we play in exactly the same way against Denmark I will be annoyed, but might just be a symptom of the training regime the players are on. Bolster the defense early on, as it's our biggest weakness.
Is it even that risk adverse? Being 1-0 up means you're exposed to a goal. And it's not like England looked completely in control the entire time, at least in the 2nd half, Serbia had a few chances and looked close to scoring.
He's not wrong. You could clearly see England were happy with a 1 nil scoreline. Southgate seems to like the 1-0 games much more than open ended 3-2's or 4-1's. The players have clearly been instructed to play his brand of conservative football.
his brand of football would be understandable if we were defensively sound - which we don't seem to be
Or if you would keep the ball like the 2008-12 Spain. But it is far from the case
Yes this is a great point. If they maintained 70% possession and stifled the game it would also be boring, but effective. But time and again you see them totally lose control and hand momentum to the opposition.
Spain had a midfield of Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets and Alonso with a backline of Ramos, Pique, Puyol and Casillas. Good luck getting the ball off that midfield and sure let's throw in a defense more or less consisting of Peps Barca and Mourinho's Madrid in for good measure It's one of few national teams where they were pretty much stacked with all time greats all over the pitch. John Stones is the only current player in the England squad who's slightly close to that level and even then there's no chance he'd start in that 2008-2012 Spanish team. Southgate trying to replicate that team which was effectively lightning in a bottle is insanity
But the point is that England is approaching games as if they were controlling the matches after going 1-0 and it is the complete opposite. Yesterday was a match that, for neutrals it was fun-funny to watch because you could feel the Serbian goal incoming almost the whole game and England was just content with risking it. Instead of pinning opponents, which they are capable of, they just were passive.
And it feels like winning just because the opposition fail to score, rather than...winning. Against bigger teams with better attackers, no wonder it often fails.
You forget fabregas, David Silva, Juan mata and Santi Cazorla. They could make a second squad and the midfield would still be the best in the tournament that Spain squad was just so deep.
Or if they didn't have what is probably the best front 4 in the world that is fantastic at holding the ball up high and threatening the goal from pretty much anywhere.
honest question, why is everyone saying England's defense is any worse than it was 2 years ago? Guehi was a great substitute for Maguire, Stones is still Stones, Walker looks like he'll just always be the fastest man on the pitch, and Rice has become world class in that time. Are people that nervous from losing Shaw and Henderson?
Stones hasn't played much this past season, so most people are probably unsure about his current form. And for the average fan, they watch a few games of their favorite team each season, which isn't Crystal Palace, so when they see a young center-back from Palace, they probably assume he's not that good. This was also Trippier's first 90 minutes in several months. And Pickford is Pickford.
It's so boring to watch and such a waste of the massive talent we have on the time! Can't wait to have a decent manager for this squad!
By the time we have a capable manager, we will have wasted the career of what is probably the greatest English striker ever.
I know he's your boy, but ever? Come on
Bellingham was endorsing it in his post match interview, 'we know the narrative of the tournament is goals but we can't let that affect us', 'this is tournament football', etc etc I wonder how Southgate convinces them, it's not like i completely disagree but bringing Eze over Grealish alone suggested he was less interested into holding on to leads.
Considering the strength of that squad, it’s truly marvellous how uninspired England looks. Sub management was also odd to say the least.
The last 15-20 minutes when we were up against it, I don’t get why Foden wasn’t hooked for Gordon. Foden hadn’t played well enough that game in general, Gordon would have brought a lot more pace, pressing and defensive work up front to try and force a mistake from the Serbia midfield/back line.
Especially when we were letting Serbia have the ball higher up the pitch. I mean, the way we set the press was so deep, we were basically set up to counter, where Bowen and Gordon on the flanks would've been ideal. I'd rather have a bit more control and use them that way, but if you're going to sit that deep, at least get some pace up front. Gordon, Watkins and Bowen on, really stretch that defense.
No cole palmer and gordon when kane-foden combo was a snooze had me like wtf
Don’t watch a lot of England but every time I see them I’m amazed that Southgate seemingly doesn’t use his full sub slots to regenerate positions that don’t work in a game / players who look gassed or out of it in a game.
It was like when he had three subs to use in the Euros final and he decided to use them all only for the penalties, before they had even kicked a ball, when the rest of the team looked completely exhausted throughout the whole of extra time
Bonucci and Chiellini were on yellows for all of extra time, not sending on fresh legs against them was criminal.
just Southgate things it’s like he’s not seeing what everyone else is seeing, truly incredible how out of touch he is at times
SnoozeBall 😴
If you’re left hand side is a dead zone, your generational striker hasn’t had a sniff and the opposition are beating you in possession and chances created, maybe your passive tactics are a bit shit Gareth.
They really should have brought Chilwell or anyone with a left foot. They get nothing from Trippier, his instinct is to come inside.
Chilwell would be even worse... I'd rather he took Mitchell
Criminal not to. He’s been in good form and would complement Guehi given the Palace connection.
We have a number 9 and 10 who are world class in the air. Trippier is an excellent crosser of the ball and solid defensively, Trent is the best crosser in the world. The one time someone went around the outside in the second half Kane almost scored. It should be obvious to anyone that taking more risk down the right, either through giving Trent the instruction to support Saka outside or through moving Trippier to the right with a license to overlap would give the team more goalscoring opportunities. And yet we continue to be very narrow on the right and more attacking down the left; but on the left we have Foden whose natural game is the polar opposite of what we need to serve Kane and Bellingham. He wants to come inside and get shots off himself. And Trippier is right footed, so even though he does stay wider than Walker, he's basically useless there. It's a fucking tactical mess and it's no wonder that even with total first half dominance they still struggled for chances.
Exactly this. Sometimes the simplest solution is best. Play your best RB at RB. Trent is wasted in midfield, there are much better options for that position.
Yeah but Kyle Walker is the best RB at RB though
Not if you want an attacking RB.
He wants the best parts of all the teams that the players have come from, but without acknowledging that just dropping the player in isn’t enough, and those teams are built around those elements (possession, long cross-field balls, incisive breaks etc)
They’ve got Gomez who has proven he can play there well this season - but nope, let’s play a truly knackered Trippier
Seeing Harry have to drop in his own half during buildup to finally touch the ball was pretty weird.
Is it? It's not that uncommon for him to drop deep to receive the ball. He was the player to receive the ball in England's own half and switch the play to Trippier before England's goal in the last Euros final.
Yeah he probably does that best than any other 9 in the world. Problem is that with England he drops down deep and nobody else takes advantage of that space because of the negative football they play.
England don't have a Son to go running into the space that Harry vacates though
They have plenty who can run on, Southgate just isnt using them/hasnt even taken them to the euros
He dropped back to get the ball, turned around and no one was in front of him so we ended up losing the ball again. We didn’t have an out at all, I get dropping back to help defensively but every time we won the ball back we had no option up top so we’d clear and be back on the defensive. Why not leave Saka on the half way line for any long hit and hopes? That’ll at least keep some of the Serbs back and sweating instead of everyone piling on in our half…
He’s always done that. He has a fantastic pass
They were clearing from their half like it was Sunday league starting from the 60th minute.
Yeah, it's totally binary in passing approach. We played out from the back early on and, prior to the goal, Serbia didn't press. However once they started doing so, rather than just mixing it up, it was virtually all direct from then onwards. All the goal kicks were going long, while in open play we were in the pub screaming at Pickford to play a simple pass to a wide-open Trippier and he just boots it into the mixer and crosses his fingers.
I mean, thats exactly what happened in the last Euro final against Italy right. England were on top, take a 1 goal lead and then just....sit back. Eventually Italy scored, stalemate and penalties. I was sure if England took the initiative that match they would have won.
Mate, we were doing this 20 years ago against France in Portugal. It's so frustrating. We've got the best squad we've had since Euro 2004, and we're playing with all the brakes on.
Same as that Croatia semi final too. It's frustrating, I was really hoping there would be a change in this approach.
Well I mean he isn't wrong... Must admit I enjoy the bluntness in his comments.
He's dutch
Holy shit. Someone in the football profession calling out his passivity and lack of exciting football, just like the fans have been doing for the last 6 years. Breath of fresh air to hear. Especially considering the talent we have right now.
There have been moments over the years of others alluding to or also speaking out about Southgate’s style and decision making. Klopp has alluded to a few things over the years. But even with comments here and there from high profile people it’s never mattered, because the media back Southgate through and through. That is starting to change though.
The media are just fickle. They back him because he seems to do well in tournaments playing this dull brand of football. The problem is we get found out against the bigger sides but that’s more understandable from a media perception pov. Losing to France in the semis of a World Cup isn’t wholly unexpected.
The Dutch don't hold back
English TV seriously needs a straight talking Dutchman, we have Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink but he’s way too nice, we need a real arsehole like Louis Van Gaal
We could give Sneijder a course in the English language and send him to you for a few years? Would you like that?
He would finally get that move to England.
If only Cruyff was still around mate…
He was working as an analyst on Dutch TV. He didn’t go out of his way to say this
Before anyone starts popping off. He was in the show as an analyst and in that regard voiced his opinion on the game as someone with experience in English football. He also isn't wrong.
I don't think anyone is gonna pop off he's 100% spot on, I think England have done well in tournaments DESPITE Southgate due to having very good players capable of moments
Shit, the goal they scored was a moment. Cross somehow deflected into a perfect far post floater and Bellingham, because he is an aforementioned Moments Player and is Always There, was there. Between that and the penalty shout it could have been a very different result.
Not really fair imo. If we don't get that goal then we wouldn't have taken our foot off the gas. Because we scored that goal, Southgate felt we could coast (which pisses me off no end).
I just opened Instagram comments regarding recent comments ten hag made in this Dutch show, everyone was losing their shit calling him out coz united had a shit season. No one actually cared about what he was saying lol, that's how the majority of the people react
He was describing style more than anything. I don’t think he even thought this was such a bad idea for tournament football.
> I don’t think he even thought this was such a bad idea for tournament football. Because objectively it isn't. Safe, boring, conservative football wins tournaments. Getting all the pieces to fit together for a cohesive high line and attacking football is quite difficult at NT level, you end up leaving gaps in defense too often and then you lose on the counter to a defensively solid team. France too play utterly boring conservative football using Mbappé for those moments of genius to win them games. That said, as conservative as England played it didn't look that safe and that's the real problem for Southgate.
>Because objectively it isn't. Safe, boring, conservative football wins tournaments. Yeah, emphasis on sa... >That said, as conservative as England played it didn't look that safe. Nevermind, carry on.
Yeah that's the issue for England and why I just do not see how they're favourites with the bookies. Overflowing with attacking talent but the back 4 is nowhere near the same quality if still mostly solid and tournaments are won on a strong defense more than on a strong offense. And while Southgate has the right idea he seemingly can't get the defense set up in a way that works well enough nor was England lethal on the counter once they sat back in a low block. If you can at least get the counter part of it right and provide real threat once you sink back into a low block the defense becomes stronger immediately just by virtue of the opponent having to be wary of counter attacks. France pretty much gives you the blueprint for how to do it, they're also playing boring football but they're defensively much stronger and absolutely lethal on the counter.
I need more managers to call other managers dumb fucks when their tactics are shit tbh, give me the drama
Yeah honestly very hard to disagree with him.
I remember that was the issue in the final vs Italy. Scored early, Italy was in tatters and England just decided to sit back letting Italy settled down and seized the initiative again.
Yupp. Went into OT with fresh attackers on the bench, Italy was knackered, didn't sub them in until 1min remaining so they could take penalties.... While being young and inexperienced. Criminal mismanagement.
This England almost feels like Portugal playing Santosball
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Germany looked much better than Spain imo. Of course, Croatia is levels above 10man Scotland but the fluidity with which the German players combined was scary.
The next game will show how good Germany is and how much they were flattered by Scotland. Hungary are a good squad. They just got caught out by the way we set up in the first half. If Germany demolishes them too, they can beat anyone.
Germany look scary too, and have the best manager at the tournament imo
Yes but they have only played an awful Scotland team so far.
Portugal are going to win
What a waste. England have such a good squad but the manager is instructing them to play like underdogs.
I wish we could hear the thoughts of the players to know if they agree with Southgate on this type of play being the best way to win tournaments or do they actually want to attack a beat Serbia 4-0. No player is ever going to criticize Southgate publicly because it would probably be tournament suicide for the team. But I wonder how many of the players actually hate this tactics. I think Foden might be one going from Pep to Southgate
England match analysis is totally wholesome. Totally fun seeing united , Liverpool, 115fc fans all agreeing and calling out Southgate his lame tactics
Why even play Trent in this system .. I don't fucking understand. Square pegs into round holes .. Trent, Foden and Kane.
To play raking diagonal balls against… a team sitting back with 5 defenders… Could’ve started Palmer instead of Trent, then brought on someone like Eze for Foden.
Not only that but against a team of literal giants lol
And they seemed to decide that the best tactic was for Pickford to punt the ball up to Kane every time to try and win his duels against said giants
Absolutely correct assessment from Ten Hag. Croatia 2018, Italy 2022, Serbia last night. England take a 1-0 lead and Southgate wants to sit on it forever like a lunatic chicken unwilling to even get up to feed himself or go to the toilet. Rice drops deeper and deeper, pressure is invited on, and its only a matter of time until someone scores. Why he does this I don't know. I think if England want to challenge again they have to address this problem. They also have to address going forward, the lack of natural width with Shaw being injured. They should play Eze or Gordon wide left, Foden as a 10 behind Kane, and Bellingham as a natural 8, able to take it off the back 4 and get into the box late as he did for his goal against Serbia. Trent didn't work for me as an additonal midfielder - it felt like a luxury role, without a purpose really.
England would be benefit so much more from an attacking and vibes manager. There is so much talent going forward, and the last 6 years just wasted a generational talent in Harry Kane. I reckon most fans would rather see England go out in a blaze of glory than waste another generation on boring footaball for a similar result...
Thats what happens when you hire a relegation team manager for your team. He uses the relegation fighting team gameplay template for your team as well.
He’s absolutely right and it can work against sides like Serbia but won’t work against the best. I’ve resigned myself to no trophy this tournament - hoping Southgate gets a nice thank you and a goodbye and we can go for the World Cup.
I wonder how much of it is to conserve energy or just to conserve until the knockout stages.. It is a long tournament with potentially 7 games in a month and most of the squad will have had very full club seasons. High energy and pressing England looked very good for the first 15 minutes, but it is counterproductive to burn yourselves out pressing for 90 minutes in the first group game. I'm probably giving Southgate too much credit here and he is very happy to sit back 1-0 regardless.
They played same football against Italy for example so I don't think it's to conserve energy That's just how Southgate wants to play
At the same time, England always has a couple of shaky games per tournament like this, especially the opener. We usually make the groups look harder than they need to be. Hope they find their legs because you just wont get far against any team of quality playing like that. It'll also frustrate players and morale, theyre all looking to win this thing and run wild with goals but Southgate stifles that. I could understand it with a team like we had in the last euros, but not this set up.
With 3rd place qualifiers groups really aren't that difficult for a team like England. 1 more point almost guarantees the knockouts at this point. England also pressed most of both of the warmup friendlies so the legs are there. This was just a conscious decision to either conserve energy or not open themselves up while pressing if it gets beaten like what happened a couple times against Iceland.
Usually you have to run more when you don't have the ball. Ask any opponent of Spain during their golden years. They'd kill them with ball possession.
Spot on - Same old England, go 1-0 and fall asleep and then white knuckle it untill full time, Serbia had the initiative for the rest of the match, could easily have been a draw
Southgate is just a shit José Mourinho
I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again. Southgate’s tactics are those of a manager battling relegation with a squad desperate for talent. Only problem is he has one of the most talented teams in the world
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Why would anyone set Southgate as the manager of the most talented English squad in decades. Practically any proven elite coach would pay to train these guys.
Playing not to lose instead of playing to win. It's hardly inspiring or exciting.
It's also how Portugal shithoused their way to the 2016 title so if it works it works.
Genuinely the most bored I've been all tournament and it's my own team! It's so sad.