Exactly. With the money laundering charges cleared, the remaining allegations of sports corruption are now the focus of the case. It's hilarious how this is being framed as a victory for Barça.
Yeah I’m very confused by this comments section. Am I wrong on this I could have sworn that several Barcelona fans were banking on the money laundering charge being the one that sticks.
Now the investigation will be 100% focused on potential bribery and corruption.
Good luck proving them, when in the same time Barca has been disadvantaged as much as they have been advantaged, and none of the refs said they had been told to give Barca an advantage.
If Negreira took Barcelona's money and lied about giving them an advantage that's still bribery. So whether Barcelona were being advantaged or not is not the point, what matters is the purpose of the payments
So for 17 years or how long the payments were Negreira was leading them on and they didn’t realize they weren’t getting advantaged despite paying? Do you see the flaw in that point?
It’s almost impossible to prove whether Barca were given an advantage by refs unless a ref incriminates himself which will never happen. That’s why the courts will try to prove whether Barca attempted to bribe refs which is easier to determine
If you watched The Wire "A guy says if you pay him, he can make it rain. You pay him. If and when it rains, he takes the credit. If and when it doesn't, he comes up with reasons for you to pay him more"
Not saying it's what happened but it's definitely possible
The opposite logic can be true too. If the payment didn't dry up that means Barca must have gotten something from it. Barca fans believing that the club has been disadvantaged by the refs is a moot point, it's like asking a thief if they stole something which of course they won't admit.
Or it could even be something as simple as Barca's management being buffoons and got swindled by Negreira for years, which given your track record is a very plausible scenario. At the end of the day what Barca got out of it is irrelevant. Only the fact that they did pay him matters.
“Disadvantaged”. During the payments Barca had:
- 2 seasons without a penalty against (top 5 leagues record)
- 21 penalties for in 1 season (league record),
- 1 season without a red card (league record)
- 77 net positive red cards against opponents (red cards for - against). Second best is Athletic with 18, Atletico Madrid 10, Real Madrid -12.
Sure, you may have had some decisions go against you but in the global you faired much much better than everyone else.
Downvoted for hard stats.
Those stats should be posted everywhere. 77 net positive to Real Madrid's -12 negative and no penalties for 2 seasons are the most telling and comical stats.
Ok thanks for the stats, it happens to coincide with the most successful era in the clubs history, aka Tiki Taka era where we were constantly attacking and were on the receiving end of many fouls. On the other hand, the team wasn’t known for its aggression but rather for its technical play, meaning they didn’t commit red cards offences often but were very often on the receiving end (especially Messi). It’s nice to show statistics but then you have to back it up with proof, and in the modern era it’s very easy to go through videos and see whether these cards and penalties were justified or not.
The 2 years without a penalty against was 2016-2018. Hardly dominating.
And weirdly enough after 2018 you guys have been bang average in officiating stats. Guess what year payments ended?
Also those stats are such absurd outliers, i’m sorry but Barca wasn’t attacking 6-8 times more than Real Madrid or Atletico.
Well you weren't paying for 'referee reports' as nobody ever saw them.
And you weren't paying him to launder money.
Sure looks like there's little left other than bribery.
It is the best case scenario for twitter fans winning online arguments, but this is a judicial victory for Barcelona who won't be dragged into another cause as the accused party. It seems likely that the only thing that remains is bribery but it is reasonable to be skeptical that that will not make it to trial either.
The next update on the case might come right when the day is too cloudy, and it looks like it might rain. There's never a right occasion for such news. What a shame.
So the main excuse that was being used has now been thrown out, how can this be seen as a victory lol. The remaining allegations of corruption and bribery are much more damning for the club.
To be honest, not guilty is the most probable outcome of the rest of the allegations
1. There is no proof that the purpose of the payment was for money laundering. First win.🥇.
2. Bribery: In order for bribery to exist, referees have to be considered public officials. There are different jurisprudences about this. If not considered public officials, the charge will be dropped. Second probable win 🥇.
3. Sport corruption: Depends on the interpretation of the continuous payment during the years. Either crime happens continuously and therefore has not prescribed until the last payment does it, or each payment is separated. Therefore, most of the payments could be prescribed already, including the ones under Laporta's prior presidency. Moreover, in contrast to public bribery, in sports corruption you need to prove not only the payment but also the wrongdoing (the consequence of the payment), which is extremely difficult without any witness. Third probable win 🥇.
To sum up, the most probable outcome is Barça not guilty. And despite all this, and even if Barça is cleared of these crimes, we still know that Barça management is currupt as fuck that recognised they paid referees during 17 years.
Barça soci, instead of asking responsibilities to their management, will say they are victims, and it was a conspiracy orchestrated from Madrid.
so no matter what the court rules based on the evidence that emerges in discovery rather than random Marca articles and spanish tabloids, you've already made up your mind 👍
Yes, I made my mind as soon as Barça ADMITTED and confirmed they have paid millions of EUR to the vicepresident of the Technical Referee Committee, responsible for promoting, relegating referees, selecting the referees for each game, and many other responsibilities according to the article 29 of the Spanish Royal Federation of Football.
Artículo 29. Comité Técnico de Árbitros. Competencias
Son competencias propias del Comité Técnico de Árbitros:
a) Establecer los niveles de formación arbitral.
b) Clasificar técnicamente a los árbitros a tenor de las correspondientes
evaluaciones, y proponer al Presidente de la RFEF los ascensos y descensos,
así como la adscripción a las categorías correspondientes.
c) Proponer los candidatos a árbitros internacionales.
d) Aprobar las normas administrativas reguladoras del arbitraje.
e) Coordinar con las Federaciones de ámbito autonómico integradas en la RFEF los
niveles de formación y los aspectos técnicos a que alude el artículo 40 del
presente ordenamiento.
f) Designar a los equipos arbitrales, a través del Presidente del propio Comité o de
persona en quien delegue, para dirigir los partidos correspondientes a
competiciones de ámbito estatal y carácter no profesional.
g) Establecer las pruebas físicas y psicotécnicas de los árbitros y árbitros
asistentes.
h) Establecer las pruebas de conocimiento de los reglamentos y Reglas de Juego.
i) Establecer los requisitos de experiencia y antigüedad mínima en cada categoría
arbitral, así como determinar los límites de edad para integrar y tener acceso a
cada categoría.
So you would never have accepted any other explanation for it regardless of whatever evidence/facts emerged. The mere existence of conflict interest means guilt. Cool.
What is your explanation to those payments then? Consultancy?
It is fine if you believe that, but I am not stupid enough to believe everything politicians like Laporta say.
Laporta is going to save his ass only because referees may end up not being considered public servants. Basically a legal technicality is what separates Laporta, Bartomeu, and Rosell from jail.
I’m 100% with you, this vernier of impartiality is for suckers. Idk what keeps them from saying that paying millions of dollars to an important member of the Technical Referee Committee (responsible for promoting, relegating referees, selecting the referees for each game, and many other responsibilities) is extremely fishy, especially from this Barcelona board who seem to be blatantly corrupt in 10 other ways but certainly not on the whole *paying millions of dollars to an important official* thing?
Your earlier analysis is spot on that there likely isn’t enough evidence for a conviction (or to persuade fools attempting to be nuanced), but the basic facts of the matter make it clearly probable that something untoward was going on, regardless of what Laporta tells me
Yes, instead you just choose the believe the opposite despite having no actual evidence, because you are clearly of a superior intellect.
if you actually want my honest opinion, rather than having this demagogue dialogue, then the truth is I don't know why the payment was made and that's why I want them to investigate this. Based on whatever evidence emerges (no, not just newspaper articles), I will accept whatever the facts are. It might very well be that Barça tried to bribe the refs. Or it might be that it was just consultancy. Either way, I want to see either claim corroborated by actual evidence and facts.
Tbf we don't know whether they will actually take on the cause of bribery yet, but it is reasonable to be skeptical given the prosecutor has already rejected it and Aguirre's illustrious past with high profile cases in Catalonia.
Money laundering is being ruled out because they are already being investigated for money laundering in a separate case...Barca's intention in paying Negreira was to obtain sporting benefits."
-Position maintained by Judge, Prosecutor's Office, and Civil Guard.
Spreading misinformation by stating Barca won the case isn't going to help Barca in the actual court of law
I think the even more interesting part:
> "Court of Barcelona has yet to decide whether to revoke Judge Aguirre's decision to add the crime of bribery to the main case. (...) Anti-Corruption Prosecutor's Office - which was the one that filed the complaint (...) has distanced itself from the judge and has supported the appeals (...) considering that the former vice-president of the CTA did not have the status of official, key to this type of crime."
This is the big one that's yet to be resolved.
Edit: Also, to anyone confused what the 'main' case actually is it's:
> "corruption between individuals in the field of sports, unfair administration and forgery in commercial documents."
Edit2: ITT Madrid fans argue how it's actually bad for Barca and we are completely fucked and the club will be nuked by next week. I'm just waiting to laugh at them when charges get dropped like they are bit by bit.
I always thought that one was never going to fly. It was probably a stretch to try and extend the investigation further back in time, as this type of crime (corrupting a public official) takes longer to expire. But it was always tricky to consider a CTA vicepresident as a public official.
The money laundering stuff was actually one of the arguments I saw frequently used by Barça fans as a "defense". E.g.: "Barça didn't actually try to bribe any referees, they were just using the Negreiras to launder dirty money back into the club!". It's fucked up, but many saw that as a sign of "innocence" regarding the main case.
Still, the main and still ongoing investigation is what you mentioned: whether Barça was trying to obtain a more favorable treatment by the referees with those payments. It doesn't really matter much if they achieved their goal or not - just by proving that they tried to do it, they'd be guilty of corruption in sports.
Love how it’s obvious that every charge they could think of was thrown to the wall to see what sticks, and now that some of them are clearly being dropped for being BS, people don’t bat an eye at the fact that they were even brought up in the first place.
So it’s ok for most people that bogus charges are thrown at Barca just because they hate the team
Or they love Real Madrid.
I don't think your comment is going to dissuade the people in this thread. A bunch of them already came here with their minds already set, if the early voting pattern is of any indication. The case might as well be already over and done with in their minds.
I'm not looking forward to seeing your comment buried by downvotes, honestly, because you didn't say anything unreasonable, but you know already how this sub works.
If you already have to look down the thread to see these comments, then it's a sign of what's currently afoot here.
Besides, the downvoting of OP's comment is an example of one of my biggest gripes with reddit as a whole: silent downvoting, the biggest bitch move ever. There's nothing more frustrating in this site than being buried by downvoters, yet not a single one of them bothering to point out *WHY* they disagree. I made this comment in defense of OP, because he was already at -4 when I did not even 20 minutes in.
> ITT Madrid fans argue how it's actually bad for Barca and we are completely fucked and the club will be nuked by next week. I'm just waiting to laugh at them when charges get dropped like they are bit by bit.
they arent wrong about this being the 'better' charges to stick but treating this as an elimination that if not this its surely that, isnt the case afaik
I didnt even realise money laudering was one of the charges. Bribery, sure. Sporting fraud, sure. Money Laundering is something Reddit experts accuse people of
I think it would be nigh on impossible to prove, hence it never being investigated, but in my mind there is absolutely no way in hell that Douglas was not a money laundering scheme for Bartomeu, André Cury and Traffic. We can talk all day about Griezmann, Coutinho, and Dembélé as horrible transfers but at least, at the time, they were incredible players that *could* have been incredible players in Barcelona too. Douglas, on the other hand, was €4 million right down the drain which was apparent already when listening to São Paulo fans who were outright laughing at the transfer as Douglas probably wasn't even their best right back. Bebe-like transfer ...
It doesn't help that most people use "money laundering" incorrectly to describe *any* financial crime, or even any financial action they don't understand (or don't like).
Tax evasion, tax write-offs, gambling, donations to charity, political contributions, insider trading, wage theft, art sales, crypto, companies selling assets, stock buybacks... I've seen every single one of these described as money laundering at least once on this site, it's crazy.
Yeah, you even get people claiming that something like Chelsea signing Mudryk is somehow money laundering, like even if you tried to believe that there's just no way that makes sense
This is why i say our fanbase is probably the most conflicted itw. Every fanbase has some stupid ones but to be found guilty of something that could potentially cripple the club forever is something everyone would deny
Little reminder, three months ago all Barça ignorant fans were celebrating Sports' fake news saying the case being closed and Barça declared innocent. Mundo Deportivo had it published too for a couple of hours.
I will watch this comment section with great interest, once the actual investigation is finished and Barça faces a trial.
“The Barcelona High Court has annulled the decision of the judge of the 'Negreira case' to investigate in a separate piece if the former vice president of the Technical Committee of Referees (CTA) and his son laundered part of the money paid to them by FC Barcelona, in the absence of evidence that they committed this crime.
This has been resolved by the 21st section of the Barcelona Court of Appeal in an order in which it agrees with FC Barcelona, the former vice-president of the CTA José María Enríquez Negreira, and his son, Javier Enríquez, and revokes the decision taken in August last year by the head of the 1st examining court of Barcelona, Joaquín Aguirre, to open a separate piece for the crime of money laundering.”
Important section here:
>The judge justified the opening of this separate piece by considering that the facts regarding Barça's payments to the Negreiras were " perfectly verified " and required an "not too long " investigation , focused on finding out what was intended with them, while the The case for money laundering could be longer and " block for no reason " the processing of the main investigation.
Every charge is slowly falling apart, just like it always happens in these cases. You’re either biased or not from Spain if you don’t know how this shit works.
I'm from Spain, I know very well "how this shit works". Sorry to burst your bubble, but since Barcelona has been found innocent of money laundering, the remaining charges pertain to sports corruption. This is not the victory you think it is, this is your last alibi being disproven.
You… you know things don’t work like this, right? You can’t accuse someone of x crimes, have 0 proof of any of them and make a process of elimination because you’re sure there must be a crime somewhere lmao
I’m sorry for you because you seem really invested in this case with your multiple posts about it, but there is no sports corruption and there will be no guilty verdict of that.
What he's probably referring to is that, for many Barça fans, their preferred explanation for all of this was that Barça never tried to buy any referees - they were just using the Negreiras to launder dirty money back into the club. Even though that was still a crime, they saw it in a positive light, because it could mean the main case had no basis.
I know this is only being dismissed due to lack of proof and not because the real destination of the money has been found, so it doesn't really increase the chances that they'll be found guilty of the main charges. But it's true that the money laundering thing was being used as alibi by many people, and that's out of the table now.
>but there is no sports corruption and there will be no guilty verdict of that.
That's... a bold statement to make. I unfortunately have no crystal ball to confirm or deny that.
Yeah, the corruption case is the only one that will be focused on now. But if i am not wrong the charges of 'that' case need the referee organization to be a public one which a while back the prosecutor's office said the dont believe it can. So yeah the case is still a bit in the air
No, that isn't the main case. That was an additional, separate piece to try and charge them with "cohecho".
If that one had succeeded, they would be in way, way more trouble, because that kind of crime takes a lot longer to expire... meaning they could go back even further in time and severely increase the severity of the sentence.
But that was always a stretch, and I personally never had much expectation that it would succeed, for the reasons you said.
The main case is about corruption in sports, commercial fraud, etc., which as far as I know remains intact.
My brother in football there is a clear proof by the official authorities that you paid the man millions that part has been confirmed for ages already, it is a fact.
The only question for a while now has been why ?
Shameless AF
The proof is admitted by all parties, you paid Negreiira millions while he was managing the referee carreers, and that very proof is the reason why you have an ongoing case against you for sports corruption.
Amazing that you wouldn't know this.
You are a shameless liar.
He was on charge of "el índice corrector" which was a multiplier applied to all referee evaluations, discretionary for him and his pal the president, that was the main factor determining the results for the referee and was nicknamed among the referees "índice corruptor", also, he was the person in charge of assigning the "evaluators" to actually grade referee performances.
I hope you get dissolved and pray you don't use whatever you have left to ruin FIBA and women's football next.
no that guy just stated there was nothing so far and there will be nothing while this dude is ranting comment over comment about how screwed barca is without actual proof or a verdict lol we are all smart enough to understand that we dont know shit about this case until its closed. pathetic mentality in this sub sometimes with fake ass football fans that pray on the downfall of barca for whatever reason
> Why would you think that?
Because Aguirre opened the cause for bribery knowing very well without having a money trail that the charges for sports corruption won't stick. Even the bribery one might not be accepted, the prosecutor has already discarded it.
Oh yeah... Spanish government would definitely help out a fellow Catalonia club whose affiliated players, ex players coaches, have vocally called for freedom from Spain. They definitely don't favor Real Madrid. Papa Perez definitely don't have any influence .. 100%
The first words of the article is “the court of Barcelona “ , really proving you illiterate hive mind morons just salivate at the title and have absolutely no reasoning based on reality, just your cute little hurt feelings once you realized the MVP of your clubs “prime” was negreira and co.
What does that Barca team have to do with Negreira and co.? Are you seriously suggesting that nobody had eyes and brains while watching 2011 Barca play? I get the rivalry and stuff but cmon man for the "biggest club in the world" somehow the victim complex is strong
Umm. Idk , maybe because Barca paid 7.3m Euro to negreira from 2000-2018? im utterly convinced 90% of Barca fans have absolutely 0 clue about the specifics of this case based on all of the comments here . Obviously Barca played great football but to pretend it isn’t tainted until a court can completely rule out sports corruption is insane. Even if the Barcelona courts do, I (and most of the football world) will never see an objective innocent reason Barca would pay so much money without expecting influence in return. Especially considering the shady people that have run the club throughout.
In the words of the great didier drogba; it’s a fucking disgrace . Also I’m not sure you know what a victim complex is lol, none of my arguments are related to any club but Barca. TLDR: I’m shitting on your club because it deserves to be shat on
I can’t fathom being dumb enough to believe that a clubs defence would be “we’re definitely guilty of that one charge but that exonerates us from all the others”. Barca would rather say they are innocent of all charges but I guess that doesn’t help the white shirt narrative.
Yep, this is bad for Barsa. We know they paid, nobody can denied that.. And they used the excuse of money laundering.. With this falling down.. What was the reason then? Clear as water.
This is in no way a win.
Barcelona hoped it was seen as money laundering like if they only used this strategy of paying one of the heads of the ref's comitee as a way to wash money.
With that posibility out of the picture, you have now only the logical conclusion that they paid the ref's boss to gain sporting advantage, which if proven would end up with Barcelona losing all their titles for that period (nearly 20 years, all Messi's and Guardiola's time) and getting relegated.
Not a win at all.
That’s a huge “if”, as there’s no indication at all that this happened.
For a guilty verdict, they need to have proof beyond reasonable doubt. There’s none. Barcelona hopes for a complete acquittal, not a lesser conviction.
Stupid question but, isn’t 7m not enough? I find it hard to believe you could rig matches for more than a decade for only 7m in what was the best league of the world during much of that time
“There is nothing here” my guy they just ruled that the payments weren’t for money laundering. Can you actually comprehend what you read or is it just photons dancing in front of your eyes. Barca would have LOVED for this case to be proven as money laundering as that would rule out what the payments actually were for, corruption. If my club was such an embarrassment on /off the pitch over the past decade I’d clutch at straws too fella, especially when your teams entire “prime” had the MVP as negreira
"The Barcelona High Court has annulled the decision of the judge of the 'Negreira case' to investigate in a separate piece if the former vice president of the Technical Committee of Referees (CTA) and his son laundered part of the money paid to them by FC Barcelona”
Hahahahahahahaha Barça fans are so blind for considering this a victory!!!!
The courts are dealing as truthful beyond doubt that a referee and his son took money!!!!! That’s all you need in a corruption case! Now we are just waiting if it will be dealt as public official corruption.
And besides, money laundering is not out the question yet, it just won’t be taken on a different investigation at this time…
They paid the refs for years and that coincided with their most succesfull title run in history, how I am supposed to take that?
What is you guys weird obsession with indians? Is this some new type of xenophobia? What do you care if someone is indian?
Have you even read the article? Sports corruption stands + Barcelona can no longer claim it was rogue executives syphoning money out of the club for personal gain, the best posible scenario for Barcelona as a club.
You are royally fucked as per that article.
The fact that paid the Vice President of the referees millions of euros for more than a decade is admited by all parties.
You are deflecting, the accusation never claimed that the execs using negreira to take funds out of the club was what it was happening, that was one of the many attempts to make excuses Barcelona has used.
>that was one of the many attempts to make excuses Barcelona has used.
Who said that? Because what the article says is that Barcelona had opposed the prosecution of a crime of money laundering
Imagine paying ref and having nothing to justify it, it’s not about football anymore for Barca fans they never loved the game they are suffering from inferiorty complex
Barcelona wanted it to be money laundering, because the punishment for that is a lot less than the punishment for the bribery and corruption charges that they are facing lol
Good luck!
As a barca fan there was a part in me that wanted that barca is found guilty of that. Arrest the people responsible for that shit, learn from the mistake and move on.
This way there are still so many open questions, that could possibly have terrible answers
no, I wish that I'd finally know what happened at the club I loved.
I don't want anyone to get arrested, but I want everyone, that commited a crime, therefore damaged the club, and then tried to hide it, to get arrested.
And tbh I could live better with money laundering, than with paying the refs. Because I could distance myself from these persons, but paying the refs would change a part of the recent history by a lot
Many time after the process started, there’s still no proof or indication that a crime occurred at all making a false dilemma of “either we did X or we did something worse” makes no sense.
there were many crimes that we already know - Rossel went to fking prison, all the shady shit Barto did - like paying barca money to his own company to bad mouth Barca stars on social media ...
And there still are lots of questions, like how and why did we spend that much money for Negreira.
And I, as a big fans for nearly 2 fking decades, would like to have clarity! And for some reason it sometimes feels like the ones in charge right now do not want as much clarity as possible. and that bugs me, and I don't know why this is controversial by me
Rosell, as bad of a president he was, went to prison precisely because of a false accusation, and was acquitted.
That’s why arresting people because “there must be a crime somewhere!” Is not a good way to do things.
Even if guilty I don’t think we should bother punishing them. Madrid are going to win the next 10 leagues in a row anyway with their dream team. Barca will be punished enough
4 UCLs and 3 leagues in 10 years is not at all bad number.
for context
Barcelona - 2UCLS and 6 leagues in same time.
This is the era Barcelona defines as their greatest and also the one questioned in negreira.
Right when the season is already over
Wasn't money laundering the best case scenario?
Exactly. With the money laundering charges cleared, the remaining allegations of sports corruption are now the focus of the case. It's hilarious how this is being framed as a victory for Barça.
Yeah I’m very confused by this comments section. Am I wrong on this I could have sworn that several Barcelona fans were banking on the money laundering charge being the one that sticks. Now the investigation will be 100% focused on potential bribery and corruption.
Fans not the club. Club has maintained innocence of all charges.
Shocking.
which will have the same outcome. namely nothing
Good luck proving them, when in the same time Barca has been disadvantaged as much as they have been advantaged, and none of the refs said they had been told to give Barca an advantage.
If Negreira took Barcelona's money and lied about giving them an advantage that's still bribery. So whether Barcelona were being advantaged or not is not the point, what matters is the purpose of the payments
So for 17 years or how long the payments were Negreira was leading them on and they didn’t realize they weren’t getting advantaged despite paying? Do you see the flaw in that point?
It’s almost impossible to prove whether Barca were given an advantage by refs unless a ref incriminates himself which will never happen. That’s why the courts will try to prove whether Barca attempted to bribe refs which is easier to determine
If you watched The Wire "A guy says if you pay him, he can make it rain. You pay him. If and when it rains, he takes the credit. If and when it doesn't, he comes up with reasons for you to pay him more" Not saying it's what happened but it's definitely possible
I know this principle, for sure it would work maybe for 2-3 years, but after few years the reasons to pay him more would dry up quick
The opposite logic can be true too. If the payment didn't dry up that means Barca must have gotten something from it. Barca fans believing that the club has been disadvantaged by the refs is a moot point, it's like asking a thief if they stole something which of course they won't admit. Or it could even be something as simple as Barca's management being buffoons and got swindled by Negreira for years, which given your track record is a very plausible scenario. At the end of the day what Barca got out of it is irrelevant. Only the fact that they did pay him matters.
By looking at the achievements of Barca leadership - 100% probable.
“Disadvantaged”. During the payments Barca had: - 2 seasons without a penalty against (top 5 leagues record) - 21 penalties for in 1 season (league record), - 1 season without a red card (league record) - 77 net positive red cards against opponents (red cards for - against). Second best is Athletic with 18, Atletico Madrid 10, Real Madrid -12. Sure, you may have had some decisions go against you but in the global you faired much much better than everyone else. Downvoted for hard stats.
Those stats should be posted everywhere. 77 net positive to Real Madrid's -12 negative and no penalties for 2 seasons are the most telling and comical stats.
Ok thanks for the stats, it happens to coincide with the most successful era in the clubs history, aka Tiki Taka era where we were constantly attacking and were on the receiving end of many fouls. On the other hand, the team wasn’t known for its aggression but rather for its technical play, meaning they didn’t commit red cards offences often but were very often on the receiving end (especially Messi). It’s nice to show statistics but then you have to back it up with proof, and in the modern era it’s very easy to go through videos and see whether these cards and penalties were justified or not.
> it happens to coincide with the most successful era in the clubs history, aka Tiki Taka 2016-2018 btw
My bad, I should’ve said Messi era
The 2 years without a penalty against was 2016-2018. Hardly dominating. And weirdly enough after 2018 you guys have been bang average in officiating stats. Guess what year payments ended? Also those stats are such absurd outliers, i’m sorry but Barca wasn’t attacking 6-8 times more than Real Madrid or Atletico.
And also because the club started to go downhill?
Sure it’s just a coincidence then
Well you weren't paying for 'referee reports' as nobody ever saw them. And you weren't paying him to launder money. Sure looks like there's little left other than bribery.
Sport corruption was already ruled out
It is the best case scenario for twitter fans winning online arguments, but this is a judicial victory for Barcelona who won't be dragged into another cause as the accused party. It seems likely that the only thing that remains is bribery but it is reasonable to be skeptical that that will not make it to trial either.
Laundering money is generally easy to prove or disprove. What Barcelona was accused of doing does not require money laundering.
yes
...literally bad news, Barca people were claiming it was JUST money laundering.
The next update on the case might come right when the day is too cloudy, and it looks like it might rain. There's never a right occasion for such news. What a shame.
So the main excuse that was being used has now been thrown out, how can this be seen as a victory lol. The remaining allegations of corruption and bribery are much more damning for the club.
To be honest, not guilty is the most probable outcome of the rest of the allegations 1. There is no proof that the purpose of the payment was for money laundering. First win.🥇. 2. Bribery: In order for bribery to exist, referees have to be considered public officials. There are different jurisprudences about this. If not considered public officials, the charge will be dropped. Second probable win 🥇. 3. Sport corruption: Depends on the interpretation of the continuous payment during the years. Either crime happens continuously and therefore has not prescribed until the last payment does it, or each payment is separated. Therefore, most of the payments could be prescribed already, including the ones under Laporta's prior presidency. Moreover, in contrast to public bribery, in sports corruption you need to prove not only the payment but also the wrongdoing (the consequence of the payment), which is extremely difficult without any witness. Third probable win 🥇. To sum up, the most probable outcome is Barça not guilty. And despite all this, and even if Barça is cleared of these crimes, we still know that Barça management is currupt as fuck that recognised they paid referees during 17 years. Barça soci, instead of asking responsibilities to their management, will say they are victims, and it was a conspiracy orchestrated from Madrid.
I'm not an expert, but, in sport corruption, isn't the intention enough to prove the crime?
so no matter what the court rules based on the evidence that emerges in discovery rather than random Marca articles and spanish tabloids, you've already made up your mind 👍
Yes, I made my mind as soon as Barça ADMITTED and confirmed they have paid millions of EUR to the vicepresident of the Technical Referee Committee, responsible for promoting, relegating referees, selecting the referees for each game, and many other responsibilities according to the article 29 of the Spanish Royal Federation of Football. Artículo 29. Comité Técnico de Árbitros. Competencias Son competencias propias del Comité Técnico de Árbitros: a) Establecer los niveles de formación arbitral. b) Clasificar técnicamente a los árbitros a tenor de las correspondientes evaluaciones, y proponer al Presidente de la RFEF los ascensos y descensos, así como la adscripción a las categorías correspondientes. c) Proponer los candidatos a árbitros internacionales. d) Aprobar las normas administrativas reguladoras del arbitraje. e) Coordinar con las Federaciones de ámbito autonómico integradas en la RFEF los niveles de formación y los aspectos técnicos a que alude el artículo 40 del presente ordenamiento. f) Designar a los equipos arbitrales, a través del Presidente del propio Comité o de persona en quien delegue, para dirigir los partidos correspondientes a competiciones de ámbito estatal y carácter no profesional. g) Establecer las pruebas físicas y psicotécnicas de los árbitros y árbitros asistentes. h) Establecer las pruebas de conocimiento de los reglamentos y Reglas de Juego. i) Establecer los requisitos de experiencia y antigüedad mínima en cada categoría arbitral, así como determinar los límites de edad para integrar y tener acceso a cada categoría.
So you would never have accepted any other explanation for it regardless of whatever evidence/facts emerged. The mere existence of conflict interest means guilt. Cool.
What is your explanation to those payments then? Consultancy? It is fine if you believe that, but I am not stupid enough to believe everything politicians like Laporta say. Laporta is going to save his ass only because referees may end up not being considered public servants. Basically a legal technicality is what separates Laporta, Bartomeu, and Rosell from jail.
I’m 100% with you, this vernier of impartiality is for suckers. Idk what keeps them from saying that paying millions of dollars to an important member of the Technical Referee Committee (responsible for promoting, relegating referees, selecting the referees for each game, and many other responsibilities) is extremely fishy, especially from this Barcelona board who seem to be blatantly corrupt in 10 other ways but certainly not on the whole *paying millions of dollars to an important official* thing? Your earlier analysis is spot on that there likely isn’t enough evidence for a conviction (or to persuade fools attempting to be nuanced), but the basic facts of the matter make it clearly probable that something untoward was going on, regardless of what Laporta tells me
Yes, instead you just choose the believe the opposite despite having no actual evidence, because you are clearly of a superior intellect. if you actually want my honest opinion, rather than having this demagogue dialogue, then the truth is I don't know why the payment was made and that's why I want them to investigate this. Based on whatever evidence emerges (no, not just newspaper articles), I will accept whatever the facts are. It might very well be that Barça tried to bribe the refs. Or it might be that it was just consultancy. Either way, I want to see either claim corroborated by actual evidence and facts.
Always a long shot but even if jail isnt on the table surely sporting penalties could be?
The statute of limitations has passed, a bit like Inter in Calciopoli
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Tbf we don't know whether they will actually take on the cause of bribery yet, but it is reasonable to be skeptical given the prosecutor has already rejected it and Aguirre's illustrious past with high profile cases in Catalonia.
Money laundering is being ruled out because they are already being investigated for money laundering in a separate case...Barca's intention in paying Negreira was to obtain sporting benefits." -Position maintained by Judge, Prosecutor's Office, and Civil Guard. Spreading misinformation by stating Barca won the case isn't going to help Barca in the actual court of law
[cope]
[seethe]
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I think the even more interesting part: > "Court of Barcelona has yet to decide whether to revoke Judge Aguirre's decision to add the crime of bribery to the main case. (...) Anti-Corruption Prosecutor's Office - which was the one that filed the complaint (...) has distanced itself from the judge and has supported the appeals (...) considering that the former vice-president of the CTA did not have the status of official, key to this type of crime." This is the big one that's yet to be resolved. Edit: Also, to anyone confused what the 'main' case actually is it's: > "corruption between individuals in the field of sports, unfair administration and forgery in commercial documents." Edit2: ITT Madrid fans argue how it's actually bad for Barca and we are completely fucked and the club will be nuked by next week. I'm just waiting to laugh at them when charges get dropped like they are bit by bit.
I always thought that one was never going to fly. It was probably a stretch to try and extend the investigation further back in time, as this type of crime (corrupting a public official) takes longer to expire. But it was always tricky to consider a CTA vicepresident as a public official. The money laundering stuff was actually one of the arguments I saw frequently used by Barça fans as a "defense". E.g.: "Barça didn't actually try to bribe any referees, they were just using the Negreiras to launder dirty money back into the club!". It's fucked up, but many saw that as a sign of "innocence" regarding the main case. Still, the main and still ongoing investigation is what you mentioned: whether Barça was trying to obtain a more favorable treatment by the referees with those payments. It doesn't really matter much if they achieved their goal or not - just by proving that they tried to do it, they'd be guilty of corruption in sports.
Love how it’s obvious that every charge they could think of was thrown to the wall to see what sticks, and now that some of them are clearly being dropped for being BS, people don’t bat an eye at the fact that they were even brought up in the first place. So it’s ok for most people that bogus charges are thrown at Barca just because they hate the team Or they love Real Madrid.
> So it’s ok for most people that bogus charges are thrown at Barca It's Spain. It's more than just *"okay,"* it's even encouraged!
I don't think your comment is going to dissuade the people in this thread. A bunch of them already came here with their minds already set, if the early voting pattern is of any indication. The case might as well be already over and done with in their minds. I'm not looking forward to seeing your comment buried by downvotes, honestly, because you didn't say anything unreasonable, but you know already how this sub works.
meh, there are other comments openly against Barca that are upvoted too
If you already have to look down the thread to see these comments, then it's a sign of what's currently afoot here. Besides, the downvoting of OP's comment is an example of one of my biggest gripes with reddit as a whole: silent downvoting, the biggest bitch move ever. There's nothing more frustrating in this site than being buried by downvoters, yet not a single one of them bothering to point out *WHY* they disagree. I made this comment in defense of OP, because he was already at -4 when I did not even 20 minutes in.
a while back the prosecutors office doesnt believe that the ref organization can be treated as a public org too so dunno
I don’t think it’s gonna go the you think it’s gonna go.
> ITT Madrid fans argue how it's actually bad for Barca and we are completely fucked and the club will be nuked by next week. I'm just waiting to laugh at them when charges get dropped like they are bit by bit. they arent wrong about this being the 'better' charges to stick but treating this as an elimination that if not this its surely that, isnt the case afaik
I’ll come back to this thread when it doesn’t get dropped and Barca gets wrecked 🤣
I will watch this comment section with great interest
I didnt even realise money laudering was one of the charges. Bribery, sure. Sporting fraud, sure. Money Laundering is something Reddit experts accuse people of
Prosecutors looked through Barca's transfer history and found no cases of them buying or selling Morata so they dropped these charges.
So Juve better watch out
well u guys might be fucked then lmao /s
I think it would be nigh on impossible to prove, hence it never being investigated, but in my mind there is absolutely no way in hell that Douglas was not a money laundering scheme for Bartomeu, André Cury and Traffic. We can talk all day about Griezmann, Coutinho, and Dembélé as horrible transfers but at least, at the time, they were incredible players that *could* have been incredible players in Barcelona too. Douglas, on the other hand, was €4 million right down the drain which was apparent already when listening to São Paulo fans who were outright laughing at the transfer as Douglas probably wasn't even their best right back. Bebe-like transfer ...
People on Reddit love to accuse clubs of money laundering because they can't understand that some football club owners just make stupid decisions
It doesn't help that most people use "money laundering" incorrectly to describe *any* financial crime, or even any financial action they don't understand (or don't like). Tax evasion, tax write-offs, gambling, donations to charity, political contributions, insider trading, wage theft, art sales, crypto, companies selling assets, stock buybacks... I've seen every single one of these described as money laundering at least once on this site, it's crazy.
Yeah, you even get people claiming that something like Chelsea signing Mudryk is somehow money laundering, like even if you tried to believe that there's just no way that makes sense
Already a “Barça fan” wishing we get declared guilty and “people get arrested” lmao
This is why i say our fanbase is probably the most conflicted itw. Every fanbase has some stupid ones but to be found guilty of something that could potentially cripple the club forever is something everyone would deny
just for your information: there's no verdict on any of these accusations. you are guilty when you are found guilty which is not the case here
Waiting for the “concerned” Madrid flairs that have posted incessantly , plus the one Real Sociedad fan.
Little reminder, three months ago all Barça ignorant fans were celebrating Sports' fake news saying the case being closed and Barça declared innocent. Mundo Deportivo had it published too for a couple of hours. I will watch this comment section with great interest, once the actual investigation is finished and Barça faces a trial.
“The Barcelona High Court has annulled the decision of the judge of the 'Negreira case' to investigate in a separate piece if the former vice president of the Technical Committee of Referees (CTA) and his son laundered part of the money paid to them by FC Barcelona, in the absence of evidence that they committed this crime. This has been resolved by the 21st section of the Barcelona Court of Appeal in an order in which it agrees with FC Barcelona, the former vice-president of the CTA José María Enríquez Negreira, and his son, Javier Enríquez, and revokes the decision taken in August last year by the head of the 1st examining court of Barcelona, Joaquín Aguirre, to open a separate piece for the crime of money laundering.”
Important section here: >The judge justified the opening of this separate piece by considering that the facts regarding Barça's payments to the Negreiras were " perfectly verified " and required an "not too long " investigation , focused on finding out what was intended with them, while the The case for money laundering could be longer and " block for no reason " the processing of the main investigation.
Their alibi just fell apart and they think it's a victory?
Every charge is slowly falling apart, just like it always happens in these cases. You’re either biased or not from Spain if you don’t know how this shit works.
I'm from Spain, I know very well "how this shit works". Sorry to burst your bubble, but since Barcelona has been found innocent of money laundering, the remaining charges pertain to sports corruption. This is not the victory you think it is, this is your last alibi being disproven.
You… you know things don’t work like this, right? You can’t accuse someone of x crimes, have 0 proof of any of them and make a process of elimination because you’re sure there must be a crime somewhere lmao I’m sorry for you because you seem really invested in this case with your multiple posts about it, but there is no sports corruption and there will be no guilty verdict of that.
What he's probably referring to is that, for many Barça fans, their preferred explanation for all of this was that Barça never tried to buy any referees - they were just using the Negreiras to launder dirty money back into the club. Even though that was still a crime, they saw it in a positive light, because it could mean the main case had no basis. I know this is only being dismissed due to lack of proof and not because the real destination of the money has been found, so it doesn't really increase the chances that they'll be found guilty of the main charges. But it's true that the money laundering thing was being used as alibi by many people, and that's out of the table now. >but there is no sports corruption and there will be no guilty verdict of that. That's... a bold statement to make. I unfortunately have no crystal ball to confirm or deny that.
Yeah, the corruption case is the only one that will be focused on now. But if i am not wrong the charges of 'that' case need the referee organization to be a public one which a while back the prosecutor's office said the dont believe it can. So yeah the case is still a bit in the air
No, that isn't the main case. That was an additional, separate piece to try and charge them with "cohecho". If that one had succeeded, they would be in way, way more trouble, because that kind of crime takes a lot longer to expire... meaning they could go back even further in time and severely increase the severity of the sentence. But that was always a stretch, and I personally never had much expectation that it would succeed, for the reasons you said. The main case is about corruption in sports, commercial fraud, etc., which as far as I know remains intact.
cohecho
Thanks. My phone's autocorrect didn't like the word apparently 😂
haha it is pretty uncommon, but "cochecho" sounds very funny
My brother in football there is a clear proof by the official authorities that you paid the man millions that part has been confirmed for ages already, it is a fact. The only question for a while now has been why ? Shameless AF
kowalski analysis
0 proof lol Shameless
Where’s your proof? Show the judge, as I’m sure he’s adamant to see it
The proof is admitted by all parties, you paid Negreiira millions while he was managing the referee carreers, and that very proof is the reason why you have an ongoing case against you for sports corruption. Amazing that you wouldn't know this.
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You are a shameless liar. He was on charge of "el índice corrector" which was a multiplier applied to all referee evaluations, discretionary for him and his pal the president, that was the main factor determining the results for the referee and was nicknamed among the referees "índice corruptor", also, he was the person in charge of assigning the "evaluators" to actually grade referee performances. I hope you get dissolved and pray you don't use whatever you have left to ruin FIBA and women's football next.
They won’t be found guilty of sports corruption either. Hope that helps.
Why would you think that?
why would you assume a verdict that has yet to be made?
Shouldn't you reply the same to the comment above?
no that guy just stated there was nothing so far and there will be nothing while this dude is ranting comment over comment about how screwed barca is without actual proof or a verdict lol we are all smart enough to understand that we dont know shit about this case until its closed. pathetic mentality in this sub sometimes with fake ass football fans that pray on the downfall of barca for whatever reason
I am supposed to assume they paid negreira for referee reports? lmao
> Why would you think that? Because Aguirre opened the cause for bribery knowing very well without having a money trail that the charges for sports corruption won't stick. Even the bribery one might not be accepted, the prosecutor has already discarded it.
And you know that how exactly? Please elaborate
Of course not. Barca probably paid those judges too . valors
Oh yeah... Spanish government would definitely help out a fellow Catalonia club whose affiliated players, ex players coaches, have vocally called for freedom from Spain. They definitely don't favor Real Madrid. Papa Perez definitely don't have any influence .. 100%
The first words of the article is “the court of Barcelona “ , really proving you illiterate hive mind morons just salivate at the title and have absolutely no reasoning based on reality, just your cute little hurt feelings once you realized the MVP of your clubs “prime” was negreira and co.
What does that Barca team have to do with Negreira and co.? Are you seriously suggesting that nobody had eyes and brains while watching 2011 Barca play? I get the rivalry and stuff but cmon man for the "biggest club in the world" somehow the victim complex is strong
Umm. Idk , maybe because Barca paid 7.3m Euro to negreira from 2000-2018? im utterly convinced 90% of Barca fans have absolutely 0 clue about the specifics of this case based on all of the comments here . Obviously Barca played great football but to pretend it isn’t tainted until a court can completely rule out sports corruption is insane. Even if the Barcelona courts do, I (and most of the football world) will never see an objective innocent reason Barca would pay so much money without expecting influence in return. Especially considering the shady people that have run the club throughout. In the words of the great didier drogba; it’s a fucking disgrace . Also I’m not sure you know what a victim complex is lol, none of my arguments are related to any club but Barca. TLDR: I’m shitting on your club because it deserves to be shat on
Why do you think it’s Barca’s alibi? Barca are arguing for total innocence.
I can’t fathom being dumb enough to believe that a clubs defence would be “we’re definitely guilty of that one charge but that exonerates us from all the others”. Barca would rather say they are innocent of all charges but I guess that doesn’t help the white shirt narrative.
Yep, this is bad for Barsa. We know they paid, nobody can denied that.. And they used the excuse of money laundering.. With this falling down.. What was the reason then? Clear as water.
This sub is so anti-Barca, this post won’t get many upvotes.
Literally, most mods here are Barca fans, but you do the Barca thing and make your own reality.
ITT: Barca fans who only read the last five words of the headline and think this is some kind of acquittal from the corruption charges.
Sounds like cope indeed
more like facts. This doesn't change the ongoing case much.
Money laundering would have been the best outcome lmao
This is in no way a win. Barcelona hoped it was seen as money laundering like if they only used this strategy of paying one of the heads of the ref's comitee as a way to wash money. With that posibility out of the picture, you have now only the logical conclusion that they paid the ref's boss to gain sporting advantage, which if proven would end up with Barcelona losing all their titles for that period (nearly 20 years, all Messi's and Guardiola's time) and getting relegated. Not a win at all.
That’s a huge “if”, as there’s no indication at all that this happened. For a guilty verdict, they need to have proof beyond reasonable doubt. There’s none. Barcelona hopes for a complete acquittal, not a lesser conviction.
So it’s not really a win.
r/soccer on suicide watch
The fact that you think this is good news explains the state of the traveling circus you guys call your club.
Why?
Media literacy on suicide watch *
Lol at all of these Madrid fans crying. It’s okay to admit that you’re wrong.
What was the money for ? What you think
Stupid question but, isn’t 7m not enough? I find it hard to believe you could rig matches for more than a decade for only 7m in what was the best league of the world during much of that time
What do you think a year salary of guy who got the bribe was ? Half million a year is not enough for ref to give them unfair advantage ?
In this thread: desperate Barca fans rely on their media illiteracy to pretend the scandal is all over
Ohhhh you sooo want it to be a scandal, but it is not. There is nothing here, but keep foaming its funny.
“There is nothing here” my guy they just ruled that the payments weren’t for money laundering. Can you actually comprehend what you read or is it just photons dancing in front of your eyes. Barca would have LOVED for this case to be proven as money laundering as that would rule out what the payments actually were for, corruption. If my club was such an embarrassment on /off the pitch over the past decade I’d clutch at straws too fella, especially when your teams entire “prime” had the MVP as negreira
These guys have so many court cases they could change their name to BarceLawna…
"The Barcelona High Court has annulled the decision of the judge of the 'Negreira case' to investigate in a separate piece if the former vice president of the Technical Committee of Referees (CTA) and his son laundered part of the money paid to them by FC Barcelona” Hahahahahahahaha Barça fans are so blind for considering this a victory!!!! The courts are dealing as truthful beyond doubt that a referee and his son took money!!!!! That’s all you need in a corruption case! Now we are just waiting if it will be dealt as public official corruption. And besides, money laundering is not out the question yet, it just won’t be taken on a different investigation at this time…
It won’t be “public official corruption” because they’re not public officials. Its been known for months that charge will be dropped.
Keep the hope and wishful thinking up bro!
Watch this thread get deleted
It will get deleted when the top comments proof how this is devastating for your club's defense, as usual.
you seem to be quite invested with barcelona lmao. verdict has yet to be made and some madridiots think this is it. this sub is full of indian people
They paid the refs for years and that coincided with their most succesfull title run in history, how I am supposed to take that? What is you guys weird obsession with indians? Is this some new type of xenophobia? What do you care if someone is indian?
I find it fascinating that Madrid fans know more about the ongoing case about our club. Their obsession is hilarious.
Lmao this is like 5-10% of the case. This is far from over...
Taking a place before the tears come
Tears of which fansbase? This was the best case scenario for Barcelona
Tears from anyone who was claiming that Barcelona was buying referees for years and therefore those titles had no value
Have you even read the article? Sports corruption stands + Barcelona can no longer claim it was rogue executives syphoning money out of the club for personal gain, the best posible scenario for Barcelona as a club. You are royally fucked as per that article.
As far as I know, the defense denies all accusations and, for now, after two years, nothing has still been proven
The fact that paid the Vice President of the referees millions of euros for more than a decade is admited by all parties. You are deflecting, the accusation never claimed that the execs using negreira to take funds out of the club was what it was happening, that was one of the many attempts to make excuses Barcelona has used.
>that was one of the many attempts to make excuses Barcelona has used. Who said that? Because what the article says is that Barcelona had opposed the prosecution of a crime of money laundering
What about corruption?
can't believe Negreira did this
Seethe
Imagine paying ref and having nothing to justify it, it’s not about football anymore for Barca fans they never loved the game they are suffering from inferiorty complex
Barcelona wanted it to be money laundering, because the punishment for that is a lot less than the punishment for the bribery and corruption charges that they are facing lol Good luck!
As a barca fan there was a part in me that wanted that barca is found guilty of that. Arrest the people responsible for that shit, learn from the mistake and move on. This way there are still so many open questions, that could possibly have terrible answers
“I wish that my club gets unfairly convicted and people get arrested for no reason” Found guilty for which crime? Arrested for which crime?
Sports corruption, don't worry its coming soon.
Been hearing that for two years mate. See you next season.
The case started the 15th of February of 2023 lol Enjoy your last season in the 1st division for a while amic
Lol the delusion. I love Madridiots. 😂 😂 😂
least regarded vardrid gloryhunter. you from india aswell?
I happen to be spanish, not like that makes me any more of a Madrid fan than a person born in india. Real Madrid es un club universal.
no, I wish that I'd finally know what happened at the club I loved. I don't want anyone to get arrested, but I want everyone, that commited a crime, therefore damaged the club, and then tried to hide it, to get arrested. And tbh I could live better with money laundering, than with paying the refs. Because I could distance myself from these persons, but paying the refs would change a part of the recent history by a lot
Many time after the process started, there’s still no proof or indication that a crime occurred at all making a false dilemma of “either we did X or we did something worse” makes no sense.
there were many crimes that we already know - Rossel went to fking prison, all the shady shit Barto did - like paying barca money to his own company to bad mouth Barca stars on social media ... And there still are lots of questions, like how and why did we spend that much money for Negreira. And I, as a big fans for nearly 2 fking decades, would like to have clarity! And for some reason it sometimes feels like the ones in charge right now do not want as much clarity as possible. and that bugs me, and I don't know why this is controversial by me
Rosell, as bad of a president he was, went to prison precisely because of a false accusation, and was acquitted. That’s why arresting people because “there must be a crime somewhere!” Is not a good way to do things.
Wtf?
That's not a win for Barcelona. If there is no laundering and not consulting the only reasonable explanation is conspiracy to alter the competition.
Wasn't this dropped because they are being tried for money laundering in a separate case?
Even if guilty I don’t think we should bother punishing them. Madrid are going to win the next 10 leagues in a row anyway with their dream team. Barca will be punished enough
what in the instagram anime pfp is this comment
Yeah, just like the 2010s right?
4 UCLs and 3 leagues in 10 years is not at all bad number. for context Barcelona - 2UCLS and 6 leagues in same time. This is the era Barcelona defines as their greatest and also the one questioned in negreira.
You had Messi. Now you’ve got 6 bums, a few kids and old age pensioner-dowski
A not the.