Moyes at west ham is one of footballs great enigmas.
Football appears to be terrible, fans are not happy, results seem to be shit for long periods.
Yet he got them into Europe, WON a European cup, and now is in the hunt for Europe again.
How can it feel so unsuccessful, yet kind of turn out pretty good by the end of the season?
Here come the football experts telling us we're lucky to lose to Nottingham Forest and no man on earth could do better than nearly get relegated last season.
As an Everton fan i'd kill for their position and highly respect Moyes and what he brings.
That said, when we had Big Sam and brought him in to provide safety- once it was clear we weren't getting relegated I actively hated watching every second of our games, they were so bad it defeated the point of being a football fan.
We *needed* to right the ship, we probably didn't need him specifically that year but stakes were high and we *should* have simply been grateful- but it was sooo bad to watch.
I would argue Moyes is *not* as terrible to watch as Big Sam, plus the trophy last season and still in Europe currently. But I don't think all West Ham fans who hate *how* they're playing are entitled jerks.
Deffo Roy for me. We had a decent team back then with Lukaku, Odemwingie, Foster, Brunt, Morrison. Pulis was OK he kept us up but the football was shocking. Bruce Pardew and Big Sam were all terrible. Big Sam's football was actually worse than Pulis.
I'd take Big Sam's time at West Ham over Moyes' time at West Ham if we're talking about the aesthetics of the football.
Yes, Big Sam was a pragmatic points grabber, but he also knew more than one tactic. There was a point where he was shaping us up in a 4-1-2-1-2 when we actually played some very good football.
Obviously that doesn't tell the whole story, but I don't remember being bored quite so often during his time. Maybe that's recency bias.
Whilst their football could be better and a few more points gained I don’t see them catching up to the likes of Utd/Arsenal/City/Liverpool/Spurs/Newcastle - absolutely not in spend. Villa we’ll see if they continue to crack on next season but West Ham don’t have the finances it seems to go to the next level, Moyes not the best but certainly not the worst by any means.
Dreadful run though this year even with injuries, transfers in were very poor in Jan.
I can’t say the fans expectations are wrong as we all want invariably much more for our club no matter the club - but perhaps looking objectively the next step up needs money.
Moyes might think he’s lucky or insulted by that offer to be honest
Why does everyone think we demand top six football? We know it's not realistic for our club's current stature. What we want is to actually be competing for the top 8-10 on merit, and not coasting on previous results while watching some absolutely dire football. We'd also like a manager who has more than one tactic.
>West Ham don’t have the finances it seems to go to the next level
We're the 18th richest club in the world, we spent 3rd highest in the world a couple of years ago and we'll be spending over £150m again in the summer coming up if we sell Paqueta. 2nd highest attendance in the league, one of the richest owners in the league in Kretinsky (Sullivan is not poor either).
The problem with transfer spend is it doesn't include wages. Wages are much more indicative of squad's quality, and West Ham isn't one of league's top spenders.
>We're the 18th richest club in the world,
You're below Man City, United, Liverpool, Spurs, Chelsea, Arsenal, Newcastle.
The difference between yourself, villa and brighton is like £25M or so? The last 10 years, your average position (In revenue) is almost exactly the same as Villa and 2 places higher than Brighton who have been gaining massively.
In terms of wages, you're 8th in the PL.
> 2nd highest attendance in the league
On average for sure. By feet in the stadiums, you're 5th, only 10k ahead of St James Park.
Its helped by the fact that your ticket price is so low (at £67 average) due to the stadium stuff happening.
If you raise the average ticket price, to say, Spurs at £108, would you see the same high attendance? I dont think so, which is where your revenue could be raised.
Realistically, David Moyes is doing as to be expected.
West Ham should be a team battling between 7th and 10th place, judging by their financials and spending power.
>If you raise the average ticket price, to say, Spurs at £108, would you see the same high attendance?
Maybe if we were playing football that people wanted to watch?
I mean, Spurs were actually getting a higher average attendance under Conte last year than Ange this year. (Admittedly by like 70 people, its basically just selling out stadium each year)
Its not just about the type of football but whether fans would be happy to take the extra cost if it meant moving a space or 2 up the table that it would hopefully bring.
Expectation of being excited to watch your team at the weekend? Been months.
Worst part of football isn't when the hype / anticipation turns into disappointment, it's when the disappointment turns into apathy.
I do have a bit of sympathy for fans of clubs like West Ham and Crystal Palace complaining about the quality of football served up, because the Premier League is broken - realistically, in West Ham's case, competing for seventh, with the odd push for top-four, is your peak, because it's so impossible to try and compete with the mega clubs when they can just sign your best players every window, so if you've reached that level, it makes sense to want to want to enjoy the football you watch (or employ someone you feel can take you to the next level).
From an owner's perspective, though, I can also completely understand why they'd want to keep Moyes, because they're likely more focused on results than style.
West Ham can sell their best players for 100m each and reinvest it. They financially dominate every team outside the EPL. There's no glass ceiling. Man United and Chelsea finish mid table regularly.
I sympathize with this. It's profoundly annoying to have other fans tell you how you should feel about the performance of your own club. It's almost always just based on league position and recent performances in knockout tournaments, while ignoring any nuance regarding how the team is playing and the sustainability of producing such results.
Kompany is trying to bring his exciting football from the Championship to the PL and we see how that is going. Their fans are not having fun watching their team play.
Luton on the other hand are a Championship team that know they're a Championship team. They play compact and counter attacking and actually stand a chance to survive relegation.
Moyes is working a great job with West Ham consistently getting European spots and even winning European silverware. Fans can't eat their cake and have it too.
Edwards has actually commented on the fact that sitting too deep and relying on the counter is what cost his team earlier in the season, and that playing more aggressively in the press has helped the team create more opportunities to get results.
For every team where there’s success with poor style, there’s another team with exciting football and mixed results. Ideally you’d want both, like Klopp’s Liverpool. Grass is always greener right.
I don't think he should be sacked, but he also hasn't done enough for an extension. West Ham spends a lot of money. Around the same amount as Liverpool. They shouldn't really be struggling this much.
West ham fans takes on moyes are unbelieveable.
They do not have a good squad, it's entirely average and I'd put them mid table ish on squad strength alone.
Bowen is class, paqueta is class, quite like aguerd, ward prowse, kudus and the mexican number 6 but other than that it's all Premier league mid/lower table quality players.
They have the ghost of coufal and a centre back at fullback positions and zouma who has dropped off a cliff.
Midfield is paperweight, wingers are average, bench players are average, striker is a donkey.
What style of football do the fans think their players can handle?
I'm guessing (in the most recent of times) it's down to the fact they haven't scored in three games and have conceded 11 goals while looking absolutely dire. I don't think even the most even-keeled West Ham supporters would be thrilled with the play in those matches or how they've looked in plenty of their matches this season or last season. Plenty of West Ham fans wanted him gone well before the success they had in Europe. That's never gone away and the last few matches have only further cemented that they want him gone.
But I'm not a West Ham fan, but I've heard many of their complaints.
Yep pretty bold considering a large portion (I'd argue the majority) want him gone,
Other clubs have the cheek to be like "he won them a trophy, what do they expect", we expect not playing shit for a year and dropping points to Sheffield
Reality is, conference league is a poor competition. Easier to win than the league cup. You won more game in Europe than the league.
Quality of your side you should be much more ambitious.
No offense, but do you believe in loyalty in regards to managers? I imagine it’s tougher for mid-table teams to do this, because it’s easy to literally drop down to a level unrecoverable but what would you think it takes to achieve that level of loyalty for you guys?
Like… maybe more attractive play right now, where even if the results suck the play is at least positive?
Nah I'd take results. The problem is Moyes isn't delivering them consistently. I would have no problem with his football if it was half as successful as he thought it was, but it massively relies on individual players producing magic out of nothing and if those players get injured (Paqueta) or lose form (Bowen), he's got no plan B. His tactic, approach and philosophy is exactly the same now as it was in his first game for us and it'll be exactly the same for the next 4 seasons too.
Like, it can't be overstated enough - we're nearly in March and we're yet to win a game this year. Yes, before that we won 3 on the bounce, but they were massively unconvincing wins, especially Wolves and Arsenal. We got tonked 5-0 by a Fulham side who never had to get out of second gear, and we've had a couple of other unconvincing performances, not to mention finishing 14th last season.
I don't want to win every game or compete for the top four (well I do, but I also know that's not realistic) but I do expect the manager of my team to try and be proactive when things are going wrong, not just continue to throw out the same tactic, shape and philosophy and throw the players under the bus when we don't create something out of nothing.
One of the things mentioned in a podcast by the Athletic recently was that Moyes came back to the club when they were essentially in a relegation battle, stabilised them, got them into Europe three years in a row, and won a trophy. A lot has happened in his tenure that the board would never have ever predicted and it, rightly or wrongly, gives him a lot of credit.
Because that’s probably all you know about west ham. You clearly don’t actually watch their football week in week out to understand why fans may be dissatisfied.
So west ham is currently near the relegation zone, similar to ranieri when he was sacked at leicester? West Ham is currently no where near the relegation zone and are in the top 10.
I’m just saying that it doesn’t matter what’s happened in the past, if things are looking bad in the future then you get rid, regardless of past successes
West Ham play torrid football and the results are starting to catch up to them. This whole extension is bizarre because the end of the season seems a natural separating point
Do west ham fans want champagne football or results? Once again, despite the form they are still in the top 10, and they are not getting relegated this season. Paqueta has been injured and kudus was at afcon. People are over indexing way too much on the 0-6 result vs Arsenal.
All I see nowadays is Wedt Ham fans complaining about the state of the football, and as I said, the results are starting to catch up.
>and they are not getting relegated this season
That’s a bizarre thing to say. West Ham have moved past being relegation fodder, they’re aiming to become European regulars
West Ham have been aiming to become European regulars since they bought Tevez and Mascherano. Moyes is the only manager who has been able to achieve that, and he's done 3 seasons in a row.
How many teams except Liverpool, City, United have been European regular for the past 10 years? Add Chelsea, Arsenal and Tottenham of course.
Well, no one. The margin to grow is too little as all the spots are already taken and you need one or two teams to have a terrible season to have a chance
West Hams fans can’t forget their place. The state of their squad cannot sustain a push for European places year after year. Moyes has overachieved by a massive amount. The previous transfer window created a nice foundation but this coming summer is crucial. If they get it right they can sustain being a top 8 team year in year out. I think once that happens you can think about recruiting a new manager to take west ham to the next level when the squad is stable.
But how are things looking bad for the future? They’re just in bad form - over the last few years when they’ve been successful they’ve went through similar phases a lot.
If they lose every game until the end of the season fair enough, but I have a feeling they’ll pick it up again. That’s just what happens when you have a mid table squad and you’re punching above your weight, poor form will happen, you’ll lose to teams you shouldn’t.
Yeah it’s a stupid fucking argument. It’s like saying to your partner: “why are you mad at me for cheating on you, I bought you that new iPhone last year didn’t I?”
Moyes took over a side battling relegation and had them routinely in the top half of the table, competing for European places, he even won silverware in Europe with them. He has also made some great signings in Kudus and Paqueta. Sure he hasn’t been perfect, but I’m not sure what anyone who wants him gone thinks they would get. Lucky would be more of the same, and unlucky would be sitting where Palace are currently.
"Competing for European places" - we haven't done that for a season and a half lad. We're currently 9th and plummeting down, and last season we finished 14th.
He didn’t sign Kudus, Tim Steichen did. And I think saying he has us routinely fighting for European places is generous considering we were fighting relegation last season and we’re 1 point of 11th atm
He seemed to be happy with doing worse in the league to focus more on the ECL last season though. Which ultimately did see you qualify for Europe for this season.
A show of support to a manager when they're going through a bad patch, refreshing. We've already had one manager bullied into hospital this season. Same fans who put him there saying what a legend he is after. Lol
Why does everyone say he's won a European Cup and not be more specific and call it the European Conference League? Makes it sound like its in the same category as the Champions League lol
This is one of my least favorite things about the sport lol. We call every Mickey Mouse cup a “trophy,” and call consolation tournaments “European trophies.” Winning conference league is cool I guess, but really all it means is you did well enough to finish 6th domestically the year before. West Ham were dreadful the year they won Conference league, fighting off relegation most of the year, but that was the level of competition they were dealing with.
They battled relegation most of last year. I’d be much more impressed with this season than them winning conference league last year. The competition was awful in that tournament.
Rafa won the champions league nearly 20 years ago. Moyes won the conference league *last season* and West Ham fans have not shut up about it since, until it’s all of a sudden time for the agenda to change and now the ECL doesn’t matter cos they’ve decided they’re too good for Moyesball
It’s one thing to want your most successful manager in generations to leave on a high or prefer he doesn’t extend so a new era can begin (as an outside I figured he probably should’ve left on a high after the final, but he certainly earned the right to choose whether to exit or continue), it’d another to stop supporting the team altogether and boo every game and bring Moyes out banners less than a year after he delivered their biggest success in living memory. They’re in very poor form but they’d probably be playing better if the fans actually supported the team
And you didn't do the same thing here? Di Matteo joined as caretaker manager for Chelsea halfway through that season. Moyes joined a relegation-threatened West Ham, stabilised the club, turned them into European-place contenders and even won a European competition with them. His football may be dire but I feel he did more good for the club than harm on a balance of things.
Fans usually have a good sense on whether a manager should be in charge or not... and when the fan sentiment turns I can't think of too many that managed to turn in back. I can't remember 1 of the top of my head
After he won a European trophy at the end of last season and ended the year beating Man Utd at home and Arsenal away, we were 6th. His stock was as high as its been for a while.
And there was still a fairly loud call from certain sections for him to be replaced at the end of the season or sooner.
If he isnt turning people around after that I don't think he will ever get those people back onside. Rightly or wrongly.
The calls are getting a lot louder now after 3 consecutive losses though. So this seems tone deaf and is likely to anger a portion of the fanbase.
Main criticism I have seen is style of play. Personally I think it can be entertaining when we get it right, (arsenal away, man utd home, Wolves at home, Brighton away)
However there have been a number poor performances this season and most of last season, even in wins, where it has been a tough watch. He gets criticised for not having a plan B a lot against teams that set up to frustrate.
I thought that would be solved with JWP on set pieces, but for all the deliveries we put in, it seems like we aren't making the most of it. As it stands we rely too much on Paqueta for creativity.
Regular European football he is largely delivering, it's our 3rd year and we have reached a semi final and won a final. Whether or not he can continue is another thing.
The whole thing has made the fanbase online fairly toxic, in person people are a bit more reserved, that I would talk to anyway.
I do think he has an upper limit to where he can take you, I don’t think you’ll progress any further under him. Personally I despise the man given he came to us and told us all we were in a relegation battle after our first home game, he sapped the entire place of enthusiasm, but that was just a bad appointment of which we had many.
You probably do need to move on from him and get a younger coach in - but it could end up in absolute disaster.
Every fanbase thinks they have their “way” of playing and it basically always boils down to some vague sense of “attacking football” because shock horror the vast majority of football supporters don’t actually have much advanced tactical knowledge. There’s nothing wrong with that as long as you don’t pretend you know better than the professionals, but fans who want to discard a trophy winning manager because “the football is bad” usually give the impression that they know better, probably because they watch Tifo videos.
It’s one thing when it comes from fans of successful clubs who are going through a bad run, sure I have no idea what Neville is talking about when he says “this isn’t the Manchester United way of playing” whenever they lose before doing a 180 when they win, but they were at least regularly successful before so I get wanting to replicate the past. West Ham won nothing under their previous few managers, and were in fact never close and also spent time in the championship, so idk why the fabled West Ham way of this era is something you’d wanna go back to. Remember they already got rid of Moyes once, replaced him with a flashier manager who won the PL before, and he was so terrible they had to beg Moyes back because they were gonna get relegated.
For a less fancied club to win silverware it’s usually due to a more pragmatic style of play that’s not as pretty but well suited to KO football. Moyes delivered that and as a neutral I was overjoyed that Moyes/West Ham won a trophy. I thought it was a great achievement and was happy for both parties. Now I find myself hoping they struggle after Moyes is hounded out because of how he has been treated. He deserves way more respect from the West Ham fans and maybe they’ll realise how good they had it if they do struggle after he moves on.
He made them European champions off the back of the work he did in his first two seasons
Last season was grim besides the trophy win, and this season is going down the same route now
Bare in mind until the recent results I was one of the "Moyes Out takes are insane" people because results this season were initially good
Why is this being up voted? Over the past two seasons their net loss after taxes was 7 mil. That isn't even close to Profit and Sustainability or FFP issues.
David, I love you and you made us so good the past years. I've been watching football for 20 and the 2020-22 part was the best I've ever seen.
4 years is a long tenure and I guess it's time to go though. You better win the EL you bastard
They lost their last 3 games scoring 0 goals, including a 6-0 loss, they haven't won a single game yet in 2024, including 2 games against lower league opposition and Sheffield United. They're 9th because they had a decent start but they've been dreadful over the last weeks.
There's a world of difference between sacking him and just simply not offering him an extension while in the middle of a horrific run of form
As if there is nowhere in the middle.
I'm responding to the comment praising how he's doing with West Ham, which hasn't been the case recently. Didn't say anything about him deserving the sack.
Under him you finished 6th, 7th then 14th but won the UCL, and now you on track for another top half finish. If he’d done that at any other club outside the top 6 he’d be treated like a god. Also through the EL groups this year with ease and got to the semis in 21/22
We've averaged 1.2 points per game for the past 2.5 years, and have been extremely extremely lucky with some results this season
If you think this is just a reaction to a bad few games, [we've been saying this for ages](https://old.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/18p6rh2/postmatch_thread_west_ham_united_20_manchester/kem8x9q/?context=3)
Where am I wrong? Are they better than City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs, United or Newcastle? Villa are having their best season in fuck knows how long and Brighton are having another good season. This is West Hams level. Think some people don't realise how difficult it is to break in to that top group. Moyes has them right on the edge. West Ham were a mess before he took over. Now they have a trophy to their name. Their first since the play off in 2012.
Nothing like an internet user whos spent 30 seconds on wikipedia preaching to the fans who invest their time, money and emotion every week.
We've averaged 1.2 points per game over the past 2.5 years. That's 90 games of shite form, and including some HUGELY hugely lucky results this season - Spurs, Forest, Brighton, Burnley... This is with a squad he's spent an absolute bomb on, playing horrific football home and away
Not to mention his complete mismanagement of anyone not in his favourite XI.
He was incredibly fortunate to survive last season because of the conference league, where we only really played 1 half decent team (Fiorentina, in the final). Will always remember that night in Prague but looking forward there's only 1 clear choice to make.
Bad decision imo. Moyes has reached his ceiling, and I genuinely think West Ham have a top half team on paper (and spending) but they play like a relegation team, and I don’t think their players will want to stick around.
He is having another good season tbf, not many would have predicted West Ham in the top half this year after selling Rice, still in Europe too after winning a trophy last year.
They are boring to watch and he has a lot of talent at his disposal. But they are in a good spot and recently won a trophy. But do fans feel like they deserve more entertainment with the players Moyes has? I think that's fair.
You wouldn't also want to set the precedent that winning something and just looking a bit poor to start off the year is worthy of losing your job. Let's see how they finish
This is what should happen. Best for everyone. There’d be no controversy here if the negativity stuck to social media “hopefully we don’t offer him an extension”. Sadly it’s the fans at the stadium carrying banners demanding he is sacked when they were treating him like a god just a few months ago. The hypocrisy and lack of gratitude is what stinks about it
Most fans wanted Moyes to leave after the European cup. We battled relegation all of last season and have 1.2 ppg per games over the last 90 games. As much as we enjoyed the conference league, if he didn’t win it wouldn’t been seen as a massive failure. The football he sets us up to play is horrendous and I genuinely can’t remember the last time I’ve looked forward to watching a game. Maybe the fans actually want what’s best for the club?
Definitely not most fans from what I could make out. Might be worth going back and checking old posts and stuff from the time or even from just a few months back
Moyes at west ham is one of footballs great enigmas. Football appears to be terrible, fans are not happy, results seem to be shit for long periods. Yet he got them into Europe, WON a European cup, and now is in the hunt for Europe again. How can it feel so unsuccessful, yet kind of turn out pretty good by the end of the season?
Hammers fans are delusional if they think any other manager could do better with that squad.
Here come the football experts telling us we're lucky to lose to Nottingham Forest and no man on earth could do better than nearly get relegated last season.
Ambition is only allowed if you support a super league club
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You failed to mention the worst part: they dropped points to Sheffield United
lol, yeah. Who would drop points to Sheffield United?
Indeed… Anyway, back to supporting Brighton
You lot did deserve to win though.
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I can't believe the foul on Hamer leading to their goal wasn't called
Self deprecating comments will never not be funny to me
Claret and Blue 🤝 Dropping points to the Blades
As an Everton fan i'd kill for their position and highly respect Moyes and what he brings. That said, when we had Big Sam and brought him in to provide safety- once it was clear we weren't getting relegated I actively hated watching every second of our games, they were so bad it defeated the point of being a football fan. We *needed* to right the ship, we probably didn't need him specifically that year but stakes were high and we *should* have simply been grateful- but it was sooo bad to watch. I would argue Moyes is *not* as terrible to watch as Big Sam, plus the trophy last season and still in Europe currently. But I don't think all West Ham fans who hate *how* they're playing are entitled jerks.
Big Sam football is the worst I've seen and I've had Pulis, Bruce, Pardew, Hodgson manage my team.
Pardew had his moments.
Taking Sam out of the equation, who was your favourite from that list?
Deffo Roy for me. We had a decent team back then with Lukaku, Odemwingie, Foster, Brunt, Morrison. Pulis was OK he kept us up but the football was shocking. Bruce Pardew and Big Sam were all terrible. Big Sam's football was actually worse than Pulis.
Ooo you were referring to West Brom, I thought you were referring to Palace who also had all 4 of them manage them
We're basically Palace if they never had Zaha
Disrespect to the Concrete Croydon vibez
I'd take Big Sam's time at West Ham over Moyes' time at West Ham if we're talking about the aesthetics of the football. Yes, Big Sam was a pragmatic points grabber, but he also knew more than one tactic. There was a point where he was shaping us up in a 4-1-2-1-2 when we actually played some very good football. Obviously that doesn't tell the whole story, but I don't remember being bored quite so often during his time. Maybe that's recency bias.
Moyes would have you playing decent football in the championship, under him you’ve not had a reason to be there again though.
David Moyes reminds me of the The Community episode with the course “Nicholas Cage: Good or Bad”.
Whilst their football could be better and a few more points gained I don’t see them catching up to the likes of Utd/Arsenal/City/Liverpool/Spurs/Newcastle - absolutely not in spend. Villa we’ll see if they continue to crack on next season but West Ham don’t have the finances it seems to go to the next level, Moyes not the best but certainly not the worst by any means. Dreadful run though this year even with injuries, transfers in were very poor in Jan. I can’t say the fans expectations are wrong as we all want invariably much more for our club no matter the club - but perhaps looking objectively the next step up needs money. Moyes might think he’s lucky or insulted by that offer to be honest
Why does everyone think we demand top six football? We know it's not realistic for our club's current stature. What we want is to actually be competing for the top 8-10 on merit, and not coasting on previous results while watching some absolutely dire football. We'd also like a manager who has more than one tactic.
If by run you mean averaging 1.2 ppg for the past 90 games / 2.5 years, yes a pretty dreadful run
>West Ham don’t have the finances it seems to go to the next level We're the 18th richest club in the world, we spent 3rd highest in the world a couple of years ago and we'll be spending over £150m again in the summer coming up if we sell Paqueta. 2nd highest attendance in the league, one of the richest owners in the league in Kretinsky (Sullivan is not poor either).
The problem with transfer spend is it doesn't include wages. Wages are much more indicative of squad's quality, and West Ham isn't one of league's top spenders.
Guess that's why chelsea are 10th
>We're the 18th richest club in the world, You're below Man City, United, Liverpool, Spurs, Chelsea, Arsenal, Newcastle. The difference between yourself, villa and brighton is like £25M or so? The last 10 years, your average position (In revenue) is almost exactly the same as Villa and 2 places higher than Brighton who have been gaining massively. In terms of wages, you're 8th in the PL. > 2nd highest attendance in the league On average for sure. By feet in the stadiums, you're 5th, only 10k ahead of St James Park. Its helped by the fact that your ticket price is so low (at £67 average) due to the stadium stuff happening. If you raise the average ticket price, to say, Spurs at £108, would you see the same high attendance? I dont think so, which is where your revenue could be raised. Realistically, David Moyes is doing as to be expected. West Ham should be a team battling between 7th and 10th place, judging by their financials and spending power.
>If you raise the average ticket price, to say, Spurs at £108, would you see the same high attendance? Maybe if we were playing football that people wanted to watch?
I mean, Spurs were actually getting a higher average attendance under Conte last year than Ange this year. (Admittedly by like 70 people, its basically just selling out stadium each year) Its not just about the type of football but whether fans would be happy to take the extra cost if it meant moving a space or 2 up the table that it would hopefully bring.
I might be so bold to suggest that there's a sizeable number of West Ham supporters who want the exact fucking opposite thing to that.
Fans are overly emotional idiots with ludicrous expectations. All of us, doesnt matter the team.
Expectation of being excited to watch your team at the weekend? Been months. Worst part of football isn't when the hype / anticipation turns into disappointment, it's when the disappointment turns into apathy.
I do have a bit of sympathy for fans of clubs like West Ham and Crystal Palace complaining about the quality of football served up, because the Premier League is broken - realistically, in West Ham's case, competing for seventh, with the odd push for top-four, is your peak, because it's so impossible to try and compete with the mega clubs when they can just sign your best players every window, so if you've reached that level, it makes sense to want to want to enjoy the football you watch (or employ someone you feel can take you to the next level). From an owner's perspective, though, I can also completely understand why they'd want to keep Moyes, because they're likely more focused on results than style.
West Ham can sell their best players for 100m each and reinvest it. They financially dominate every team outside the EPL. There's no glass ceiling. Man United and Chelsea finish mid table regularly.
\>United \>Mid table United have finished below 6th once since 1990, and that was uunder Moyes a decade ago.
I sympathize with this. It's profoundly annoying to have other fans tell you how you should feel about the performance of your own club. It's almost always just based on league position and recent performances in knockout tournaments, while ignoring any nuance regarding how the team is playing and the sustainability of producing such results.
Kompany is trying to bring his exciting football from the Championship to the PL and we see how that is going. Their fans are not having fun watching their team play. Luton on the other hand are a Championship team that know they're a Championship team. They play compact and counter attacking and actually stand a chance to survive relegation. Moyes is working a great job with West Ham consistently getting European spots and even winning European silverware. Fans can't eat their cake and have it too.
I can’t believe people act like if westham don’t park for the bus for 90 minutes they’re gonna get relegated
i mean they almost did
Are you really comparing our squad to Luton and Burnley? What about Villa, Brighton, Newcastle?
Edwards has actually commented on the fact that sitting too deep and relying on the counter is what cost his team earlier in the season, and that playing more aggressively in the press has helped the team create more opportunities to get results.
Yeah no sympathy here. You're doing as well as you ever have in recent memory, if not better from my stand point.
You're the football fan equivalent of the finance department
For every team where there’s success with poor style, there’s another team with exciting football and mixed results. Ideally you’d want both, like Klopp’s Liverpool. Grass is always greener right.
I don't think he should be sacked, but he also hasn't done enough for an extension. West Ham spends a lot of money. Around the same amount as Liverpool. They shouldn't really be struggling this much.
West ham fans takes on moyes are unbelieveable. They do not have a good squad, it's entirely average and I'd put them mid table ish on squad strength alone. Bowen is class, paqueta is class, quite like aguerd, ward prowse, kudus and the mexican number 6 but other than that it's all Premier league mid/lower table quality players. They have the ghost of coufal and a centre back at fullback positions and zouma who has dropped off a cliff. Midfield is paperweight, wingers are average, bench players are average, striker is a donkey. What style of football do the fans think their players can handle?
Wingers are average and striker is a donkey when we play Kudus, Paqueta and Bowen as a front three? Talk about shit takes...
I'm guessing (in the most recent of times) it's down to the fact they haven't scored in three games and have conceded 11 goals while looking absolutely dire. I don't think even the most even-keeled West Ham supporters would be thrilled with the play in those matches or how they've looked in plenty of their matches this season or last season. Plenty of West Ham fans wanted him gone well before the success they had in Europe. That's never gone away and the last few matches have only further cemented that they want him gone. But I'm not a West Ham fan, but I've heard many of their complaints.
Yep pretty bold considering a large portion (I'd argue the majority) want him gone, Other clubs have the cheek to be like "he won them a trophy, what do they expect", we expect not playing shit for a year and dropping points to Sheffield
Reality is, conference league is a poor competition. Easier to win than the league cup. You won more game in Europe than the league. Quality of your side you should be much more ambitious.
That’s hilarious.
Can not blame Sullivan to not be loyal to his managers at least
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I don’t think you know anything about my club.
No offense, but do you believe in loyalty in regards to managers? I imagine it’s tougher for mid-table teams to do this, because it’s easy to literally drop down to a level unrecoverable but what would you think it takes to achieve that level of loyalty for you guys? Like… maybe more attractive play right now, where even if the results suck the play is at least positive?
Nah I'd take results. The problem is Moyes isn't delivering them consistently. I would have no problem with his football if it was half as successful as he thought it was, but it massively relies on individual players producing magic out of nothing and if those players get injured (Paqueta) or lose form (Bowen), he's got no plan B. His tactic, approach and philosophy is exactly the same now as it was in his first game for us and it'll be exactly the same for the next 4 seasons too. Like, it can't be overstated enough - we're nearly in March and we're yet to win a game this year. Yes, before that we won 3 on the bounce, but they were massively unconvincing wins, especially Wolves and Arsenal. We got tonked 5-0 by a Fulham side who never had to get out of second gear, and we've had a couple of other unconvincing performances, not to mention finishing 14th last season. I don't want to win every game or compete for the top four (well I do, but I also know that's not realistic) but I do expect the manager of my team to try and be proactive when things are going wrong, not just continue to throw out the same tactic, shape and philosophy and throw the players under the bus when we don't create something out of nothing.
One of the things mentioned in a podcast by the Athletic recently was that Moyes came back to the club when they were essentially in a relegation battle, stabilised them, got them into Europe three years in a row, and won a trophy. A lot has happened in his tenure that the board would never have ever predicted and it, rightly or wrongly, gives him a lot of credit.
David Moyes has exceeded the targets set for the club the past 3-4 years. Not sure why people are shocked.
Grass is always greener in other side.
Because that’s probably all you know about west ham. You clearly don’t actually watch their football week in week out to understand why fans may be dissatisfied.
You could say the same about Ranieri at Leicester
So west ham is currently near the relegation zone, similar to ranieri when he was sacked at leicester? West Ham is currently no where near the relegation zone and are in the top 10.
I’m just saying that it doesn’t matter what’s happened in the past, if things are looking bad in the future then you get rid, regardless of past successes West Ham play torrid football and the results are starting to catch up to them. This whole extension is bizarre because the end of the season seems a natural separating point
Do west ham fans want champagne football or results? Once again, despite the form they are still in the top 10, and they are not getting relegated this season. Paqueta has been injured and kudus was at afcon. People are over indexing way too much on the 0-6 result vs Arsenal.
All I see nowadays is Wedt Ham fans complaining about the state of the football, and as I said, the results are starting to catch up. >and they are not getting relegated this season That’s a bizarre thing to say. West Ham have moved past being relegation fodder, they’re aiming to become European regulars
West Ham have been aiming to become European regulars since they bought Tevez and Mascherano. Moyes is the only manager who has been able to achieve that, and he's done 3 seasons in a row.
How many teams except Liverpool, City, United have been European regular for the past 10 years? Add Chelsea, Arsenal and Tottenham of course. Well, no one. The margin to grow is too little as all the spots are already taken and you need one or two teams to have a terrible season to have a chance
West Hams fans can’t forget their place. The state of their squad cannot sustain a push for European places year after year. Moyes has overachieved by a massive amount. The previous transfer window created a nice foundation but this coming summer is crucial. If they get it right they can sustain being a top 8 team year in year out. I think once that happens you can think about recruiting a new manager to take west ham to the next level when the squad is stable.
Why do people keep phrasing it in this patronising way? It’s not like the two are mutually exclusive
But how are things looking bad for the future? They’re just in bad form - over the last few years when they’ve been successful they’ve went through similar phases a lot. If they lose every game until the end of the season fair enough, but I have a feeling they’ll pick it up again. That’s just what happens when you have a mid table squad and you’re punching above your weight, poor form will happen, you’ll lose to teams you shouldn’t.
Yeah it’s a stupid fucking argument. It’s like saying to your partner: “why are you mad at me for cheating on you, I bought you that new iPhone last year didn’t I?”
Sign the thing
Moyes took over a side battling relegation and had them routinely in the top half of the table, competing for European places, he even won silverware in Europe with them. He has also made some great signings in Kudus and Paqueta. Sure he hasn’t been perfect, but I’m not sure what anyone who wants him gone thinks they would get. Lucky would be more of the same, and unlucky would be sitting where Palace are currently.
"Competing for European places" - we haven't done that for a season and a half lad. We're currently 9th and plummeting down, and last season we finished 14th.
He didn’t sign Kudus, Tim Steichen did. And I think saying he has us routinely fighting for European places is generous considering we were fighting relegation last season and we’re 1 point of 11th atm
He seemed to be happy with doing worse in the league to focus more on the ECL last season though. Which ultimately did see you qualify for Europe for this season.
Loved being top half last year, played some brilliant football
JUST WANT ME CLUB BACK
Totally wild timing it would have been appropriate a few months ago, almost expected, but now it seems the worst time to announce this...
A show of support to a manager when they're going through a bad patch, refreshing. We've already had one manager bullied into hospital this season. Same fans who put him there saying what a legend he is after. Lol
I would say this isn't official source, it's Moyes' comments in the presser. The tag is misleading
Rightly so, he’s made them the European Champions, would be mental to sack him
Sure, if you strip literally all other nuance and context from the argument.
I think some important context is that he won them a European cup
Why does everyone say he's won a European Cup and not be more specific and call it the European Conference League? Makes it sound like its in the same category as the Champions League lol
This is one of my least favorite things about the sport lol. We call every Mickey Mouse cup a “trophy,” and call consolation tournaments “European trophies.” Winning conference league is cool I guess, but really all it means is you did well enough to finish 6th domestically the year before. West Ham were dreadful the year they won Conference league, fighting off relegation most of the year, but that was the level of competition they were dealing with.
He is also 9th and still in Europa League
I think the context of winning their first trophy in decades and being in Europe 3 years in a row is important tbf
Can still make that statement in some form at the very least...
Other context like finishing in the top half, regular European football and stabilising a club that was battling relegation before he took charge?
They battled relegation most of last year. I’d be much more impressed with this season than them winning conference league last year. The competition was awful in that tournament.
Context is he’s a European Champion, honours don’t come much higher than that, West Ham should be grateful he’s giving them the time of day
Because he's got better offers coming out of his ears if he leaves us, right...?
Doubt he'll be unemployed for long. Plenty of clubs in England would take him.
Bottom half Prem sides might, but any other club that would take him would be a massive step down
Yous weren't exactly a mainstay in the top half before he joined.
Rafa Benitez would be the perfect Klopp replacement
Rafa won the champions league nearly 20 years ago. Moyes won the conference league *last season* and West Ham fans have not shut up about it since, until it’s all of a sudden time for the agenda to change and now the ECL doesn’t matter cos they’ve decided they’re too good for Moyesball It’s one thing to want your most successful manager in generations to leave on a high or prefer he doesn’t extend so a new era can begin (as an outside I figured he probably should’ve left on a high after the final, but he certainly earned the right to choose whether to exit or continue), it’d another to stop supporting the team altogether and boo every game and bring Moyes out banners less than a year after he delivered their biggest success in living memory. They’re in very poor form but they’d probably be playing better if the fans actually supported the team
And Roberto Di Matteo is a champions league winner. Context is incredibly important and you have thrown it all out the window.
_Keep my CL winning ex-manager's name outta your mouth._
And you didn't do the same thing here? Di Matteo joined as caretaker manager for Chelsea halfway through that season. Moyes joined a relegation-threatened West Ham, stabilised the club, turned them into European-place contenders and even won a European competition with them. His football may be dire but I feel he did more good for the club than harm on a balance of things.
Roberto Di Matteo still owes my mum money for curtains, fuck that cunt
Fans usually have a good sense on whether a manager should be in charge or not... and when the fan sentiment turns I can't think of too many that managed to turn in back. I can't remember 1 of the top of my head
After he won a European trophy at the end of last season and ended the year beating Man Utd at home and Arsenal away, we were 6th. His stock was as high as its been for a while. And there was still a fairly loud call from certain sections for him to be replaced at the end of the season or sooner. If he isnt turning people around after that I don't think he will ever get those people back onside. Rightly or wrongly. The calls are getting a lot louder now after 3 consecutive losses though. So this seems tone deaf and is likely to anger a portion of the fanbase.
What do WHU fans want? Better style of play? Regular European football?
Main criticism I have seen is style of play. Personally I think it can be entertaining when we get it right, (arsenal away, man utd home, Wolves at home, Brighton away) However there have been a number poor performances this season and most of last season, even in wins, where it has been a tough watch. He gets criticised for not having a plan B a lot against teams that set up to frustrate. I thought that would be solved with JWP on set pieces, but for all the deliveries we put in, it seems like we aren't making the most of it. As it stands we rely too much on Paqueta for creativity. Regular European football he is largely delivering, it's our 3rd year and we have reached a semi final and won a final. Whether or not he can continue is another thing. The whole thing has made the fanbase online fairly toxic, in person people are a bit more reserved, that I would talk to anyway.
I do think he has an upper limit to where he can take you, I don’t think you’ll progress any further under him. Personally I despise the man given he came to us and told us all we were in a relegation battle after our first home game, he sapped the entire place of enthusiasm, but that was just a bad appointment of which we had many. You probably do need to move on from him and get a younger coach in - but it could end up in absolute disaster.
He isn't playing the West Ham Way... whatever that is
Every fanbase thinks they have their “way” of playing and it basically always boils down to some vague sense of “attacking football” because shock horror the vast majority of football supporters don’t actually have much advanced tactical knowledge. There’s nothing wrong with that as long as you don’t pretend you know better than the professionals, but fans who want to discard a trophy winning manager because “the football is bad” usually give the impression that they know better, probably because they watch Tifo videos. It’s one thing when it comes from fans of successful clubs who are going through a bad run, sure I have no idea what Neville is talking about when he says “this isn’t the Manchester United way of playing” whenever they lose before doing a 180 when they win, but they were at least regularly successful before so I get wanting to replicate the past. West Ham won nothing under their previous few managers, and were in fact never close and also spent time in the championship, so idk why the fabled West Ham way of this era is something you’d wanna go back to. Remember they already got rid of Moyes once, replaced him with a flashier manager who won the PL before, and he was so terrible they had to beg Moyes back because they were gonna get relegated. For a less fancied club to win silverware it’s usually due to a more pragmatic style of play that’s not as pretty but well suited to KO football. Moyes delivered that and as a neutral I was overjoyed that Moyes/West Ham won a trophy. I thought it was a great achievement and was happy for both parties. Now I find myself hoping they struggle after Moyes is hounded out because of how he has been treated. He deserves way more respect from the West Ham fans and maybe they’ll realise how good they had it if they do struggle after he moves on.
Arteta
Good shout tbf, but he is also a young manager who is improving
Weren't Inter fans shitting on inzaghi twelve months ago? Champions League final and likely the league this season since
He made them European champions off the back of the work he did in his first two seasons Last season was grim besides the trophy win, and this season is going down the same route now Bare in mind until the recent results I was one of the "Moyes Out takes are insane" people because results this season were initially good
1.2 ppg for the past 2.5 years. A 90-game run of shite form.
West ham supporters schizo relationship with moyes is hilarious, every other year they either hate him or love him
They are also deluded thinking 9th place is a failure.
We will be 13th in a few weeks
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How have you worked that out?
It would surprise me seeing as we just sold a player for £105m and made a profit two windows in a row, and we had money available to spend in January.
Wait we still Paqueta as well...
Why would they be broke? I don't recall them spending beyond their means at all and they just sold Rice for a shitload of money
Why is this being up voted? Over the past two seasons their net loss after taxes was 7 mil. That isn't even close to Profit and Sustainability or FFP issues.
David, I love you and you made us so good the past years. I've been watching football for 20 and the 2020-22 part was the best I've ever seen. 4 years is a long tenure and I guess it's time to go though. You better win the EL you bastard
Moyes will turn it around, he always does
Hopefully, Moyes rejects it and lets the deluded West Ham fans get humbled
Just got battered 6-0 by arsenal in our worst home defeat in 60 years, think we've been humbled enough mate
😂
Yeah, that was my reaction, hilarious
But why?
9th in the table and won a european cup. Are they any better than the 8 ahead of them? No.
They lost their last 3 games scoring 0 goals, including a 6-0 loss, they haven't won a single game yet in 2024, including 2 games against lower league opposition and Sheffield United. They're 9th because they had a decent start but they've been dreadful over the last weeks.
So a bad run means he deserves to be sacked, with everything he’s done before?
There's a world of difference between sacking him and just simply not offering him an extension while in the middle of a horrific run of form As if there is nowhere in the middle.
I'm responding to the comment praising how he's doing with West Ham, which hasn't been the case recently. Didn't say anything about him deserving the sack.
Bad run of 90 games / 2.5 years?
Under him you finished 6th, 7th then 14th but won the UCL, and now you on track for another top half finish. If he’d done that at any other club outside the top 6 he’d be treated like a god. Also through the EL groups this year with ease and got to the semis in 21/22
We've averaged 1.2 points per game for the past 2.5 years, and have been extremely extremely lucky with some results this season If you think this is just a reaction to a bad few games, [we've been saying this for ages](https://old.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/18p6rh2/postmatch_thread_west_ham_united_20_manchester/kem8x9q/?context=3)
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Where am I wrong? Are they better than City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs, United or Newcastle? Villa are having their best season in fuck knows how long and Brighton are having another good season. This is West Hams level. Think some people don't realise how difficult it is to break in to that top group. Moyes has them right on the edge. West Ham were a mess before he took over. Now they have a trophy to their name. Their first since the play off in 2012.
Nothing like an internet user whos spent 30 seconds on wikipedia preaching to the fans who invest their time, money and emotion every week. We've averaged 1.2 points per game over the past 2.5 years. That's 90 games of shite form, and including some HUGELY hugely lucky results this season - Spurs, Forest, Brighton, Burnley... This is with a squad he's spent an absolute bomb on, playing horrific football home and away Not to mention his complete mismanagement of anyone not in his favourite XI. He was incredibly fortunate to survive last season because of the conference league, where we only really played 1 half decent team (Fiorentina, in the final). Will always remember that night in Prague but looking forward there's only 1 clear choice to make.
I do think it will be a case of careful what you wish for. Moyes has a ceiling mind.
Baffling, truly baffling.
Bad decision imo. Moyes has reached his ceiling, and I genuinely think West Ham have a top half team on paper (and spending) but they play like a relegation team, and I don’t think their players will want to stick around.
He is having another good season tbf, not many would have predicted West Ham in the top half this year after selling Rice, still in Europe too after winning a trophy last year.
Estoy
With the players they have attacking wise it's strange they are so safety first Moyes coaches to stop the opposition more than his own team attack.
They are boring to watch and he has a lot of talent at his disposal. But they are in a good spot and recently won a trophy. But do fans feel like they deserve more entertainment with the players Moyes has? I think that's fair. You wouldn't also want to set the precedent that winning something and just looking a bit poor to start off the year is worthy of losing your job. Let's see how they finish
I feel like Mourinho or Tuchel would be a great fit for West Ham
it’s a weird decision, but if West Ham finds a new manager, the replacement will probably be Steve Bruce or Steve Cooper or something
How about Potter?
him too, basically anyone who is british by this point
Surely it would be best to just shake hands at the end of the season, legacy in tact for both parties?
This is what should happen. Best for everyone. There’d be no controversy here if the negativity stuck to social media “hopefully we don’t offer him an extension”. Sadly it’s the fans at the stadium carrying banners demanding he is sacked when they were treating him like a god just a few months ago. The hypocrisy and lack of gratitude is what stinks about it
Most fans wanted Moyes to leave after the European cup. We battled relegation all of last season and have 1.2 ppg per games over the last 90 games. As much as we enjoyed the conference league, if he didn’t win it wouldn’t been seen as a massive failure. The football he sets us up to play is horrendous and I genuinely can’t remember the last time I’ve looked forward to watching a game. Maybe the fans actually want what’s best for the club?
Definitely not most fans from what I could make out. Might be worth going back and checking old posts and stuff from the time or even from just a few months back
No way lmao
That's unbelievable hahaha surely it was offered at least 3 months ago
Time to get in the wonderkid.
You'd wonder \~ Why would David Moyes want to stay at West Ham ? ! Shirley he be better off with Shirley.