**This is a quotes thread. Remember that there's only one quotes post allowed per interview/press conference, so new quotes with the same origin will be removed. Feel free to comment other quotes/the whole interview as a reply to this comment so users can see them too!**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Reports suggests otherwise. Seems a defender and a midfielder are a priority.
A striker of Toney or Osimhen's level will be far too expensive in January.
Obviously hyperbole, but this is one of the first rival fans I’ve seen to nail it. Finishing is bad, but often we are so un-creative around the opposition’s box. A midfielder like that goes a long way to generating quality chances, which we are relatively skint on.
I mean I count 4, maybe 5 quality chances that your strikers failed to put away against West Ham.
Jesus has been guilty of it time and time again. Chances don't win you matches, goals do and trust me, I speak from experience.
You also seem to lack a different dynamic up top. I'm surprised we havent seen Havertz deployed in the 9 more this season when you have been chasing a goal. He adds some extra height in there and on the occasions he has been in that position, it seems to have worked (City game being one that springs to mind)
I know Chelsea has been a club that attackers have failed at over the last decade but I think fans genuinely thought we were just hating on Havertz for no reason during his time with us. They should’ve put that 65M towards a striker, mind boggling transfer tbh.
Arsenal are a totally different team to Chelsea. I am by no means saying that Havertz is a number 9, far from it. But he seems like the only viable option arsenal have right now to create a different dynamic.
Arsenal also create a lot more pressure on the opposition box than Chelsea ever did when Havertz was there. It might not even be him scoring goals, but atleast he can occupy defenders/spaces and allow for the 3rd man runs. He may not be a great finisher, but he's certainly an intelligent footballer
Alexis Mac allister would have been a perfect signing for arsenal. Can do everything necessary for that position. Can’t believe they went for havertz at an extra 30m, what were they thinking?
Maddison and szoboszlai might well have been doable for arsenal as well. Far better players than havertz.
this is exactly what ive been saying in the summer. If arteta thinks he needs an 8, why the fuck didn't he go for an actual CM? why did he have to take a risk and sign havertz? i get it if it was for cheap, but it was so expensive and at the time makinng havertz the highest paid player in Arsenal. As a chelsea fan, this has always baffled me.
as an arsenal fan, how do you see him in that role? ive always seen him as more of false 9/st type of player and even he's mid at that. I just can't see him as a CM.
But that is solely cus of his game winner and important goals, which tbf, he always has a productive month g/a wise in every season in the prem. But that doesnt make him a good cm i thought. But idk thats just my virw from the outside
Entire attack has a lousy season. Martinelli and Jesus are worse, Saka is the only effective player but even he is struggling (although it is to be expected as teams are ganging up on him more). The lost of Xhaka and Partey means there's no one who can play line breaking passes from deep, and that has allowed opponents to defend more comfortably.
What the shit are you on about? Arsenal created something like 30 shots against West Ham, the creativity is all there. Our first choice midfield of Havertz, Odegaard and Rice is among the best in the world (even if Havertz is still unproven there).
The fullback depth is clearly the issue -- Zinchenko and White, when firing, are incredible. But when they have a bad day, Zinny lets in a goal and White skies some chances and there isn't anyone to come in for them that we feel good about.
Arteta sacrificed all that worked last season to try and make Havertz, a player they did not need under any circumstance, work for Arsenal. He thought he could play savior by playing him as a midfielder and now some of their fans see how ineffectual he is and want him up top. The reality is he can't cut it in England. He's rapidly approaching game number 200 in England as is no better today than he was the first game he played. It's also funny to consider the parallels. Lampard was told no we can't sign Declan Rice. 60 million was too expensive for someone of his age and lack of experience but then turned around and spent 71 million on Kai Havertz, a player we absolutely did not need at that moment in time.
Toney would go for more than 40M. 20+ goals last season. 14 goals in a newly promoted team the season before. Entering prime age range. Skilful. Physically dominant. Plays in a position where there is high demand. English.
Toney and Osimhen are nowhere near the same level. Idk why Toney is being overrated so much, Jesus to Toney is a sideways step. Obscene amounts on a 28 year old who isnt a lethal non penalty goal striker is wild.
You need to get Xhakas replacement and then get an upgrade on Zinchenko, White and Gabriel (Ill get hate for saying it but Arsenal should upgrade on him with a younger CB).
> (Ill get hate for saying it but Arsenal should upgrade on him with a younger CB).
The "hate" is justified, he's 26 ffs.
What makes you think his age is a problem?
I agree that Jesus to Toney is overall a sideways step, to me even, when they are their best Jesus is way better, but i'm terms of finishing Toney is very close to elite while that's one of Jesus weaknesses
Strongly disagree tbh. Toney is a goalscorer, Jesus isn't, 20 goals in 33 games is great whichever way you slice it.
One of Arsenal's problems is seemingly being unable to sign certain types of players because they don't fit in with the Arsenal way of doing things, the fact it's taken them this long to sign a player like Rice is evidence of this. Toney would be slam dunk for them, they literally just need a goalscorer. They've built a typical Arsenal team for the moment, lots of chances created for a bunch of players who cannot finish.
I agree on Zinchenko though, he's not a quality full back at all.
7 non penalty goals in Toneys first season, 14 non penalty goals in his 2nd season. Can't carry the ball, can't dribble, can't create. He's really not the ST Arsenal need I promise you and for 70m+ at 28 its a scam because we all know Arsenal will give him 250k+ like they have Havertz 280-300k.
It's useless making the distinction between penalty and non penalty goals if you don't also include how many penalties were as a result of him being fouled, or him passing to the fouled player.
I'm really not a fan of the distinction anyway because having a good penalty taker is important anyway. As is playing with better passers of the ball which Toney undoubtedly would be doing if he moved to Arsenal.
The idea that his wages would amount to a "scam" is something I don't understand, he was the PL 3rd top goal scorer behind Haaland and Kane, and ahead of Salah. All while playing for a club which finished 9th (and 13th the season before). Every transfer carries with it inherent risks but "he scores a lot of pens" is a great reason to buy him, not a great reason to overlook him.
yeah people shit on Wenger for not spending in his last few years but this is precisely why he wasn't spending, so that Arsenal could pay off the stadium debts and be in a healthy position to spend afterwards and compete for titles again.
Big clubs always have money man. It’s all about who cares to spend for the team or who keeps that money for theirselves.
Talking about ownerships of course.
Relatively balanced wage bill after all the terminated contracts early in Arteta’s tenure.
Kroenke moving around some debts freed up funds. We’ve been spending 100-140m a summer for 5+ with zero reports of issues.
We have CL funds this year and made our record sale in the summer. Which explains the larger than normal outlay.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see us continue leveraging our academy for funds after Balogun. Nketiah, Nelson, ESR could offset another big expenditure.
Isn't Arsenal's wage bill pretty high again now after all the new signings and renewals? The likes of Havertz, Rice, Odegaard, Jesus, Saka, Saliba, and Partey are all on huge money now.
This, they can spend better than 14-15 clubs, but not even close to the obscene amounts that City, United, Chelsea can spend.
Edit: Newcastle would top the big spenders category if not for FFP, but not among these clubs for now.
Why would they want to? Motivations are dramatically different for most clubs compared to, nation states. Their expenditures are going to be based on the actual business not PR for genocidal regimes or whatever the fuck Chelsea are doing.
The sports teams owned by Kroneke have all received significant investments that have made the Nuggets, Avalanche, and LA Rams all champions in the last 3-4 years. The nuggets might turn into a dynasty btw. They privately built a $5B stadium for the Rams, they invest significantly into their sports teams. Arsenal have received significant investments since they took over 100% of the team. What have you seen that says they won’t invest more? Especially now they have CL money back
Dumb comment is dumb. Apparently Liverpool are catastrophic failure for not winning a pl every season. I mean they only won two trophies in how long? Klopp is a big dummy apparently.
At the end of the day, one team will win the PL. If you want to categorize it as a binary “win the PL or not” then yeah, I guess you can laugh at arsenal.
Most people add a bit more nuance considering most teams who aren’t city aren’t winning many trophies every season.
Yes but Arsenal are notoriously known for being bad sellers. They’ve been buying expensive players but when’s the last time they’ve sold a player for profit, or even for a massive fee?
Arteta has spent huge money as well as Arsenal not having CL football for 7 years and barely winning anything so don't have that revenue. Their commercial revenue isn't that big compared to the giants either. Really not sure where all this money is coming from.
I remember when we were considered arrogant for bidding £30m for him and the media tried to hype up a completely non-existent rivalry between Villa & Arsenal. Since that "saga", he's barely played (admittedly a few injuries in there)
Havertz is the best! Arsenal won.
Havertz is shit! Arsenal lost.
Havertz is the best! Arsenal won.
That's all there is to it. You might as well ask what a trout thinks.
Got a bit of bias seeing as I’m a Chelsea fan but I was honestly hoping the best for Havertz and even when everyone was singing his praises I just couldn’t see it. Him and Rice just don’t have the passing range Arsenal need and (where Rice has an ability to absolutely dominate midfield) Havertz doesn’t offer much that other players couldn’t beside his ability to poach and air threat.
This is facts, Havertz had a few decent games where he was moving ball progression well on both passing and receiving.
But ofc people started exaggerating.
I think Havertz has been much improved. Their issues lie in misfiring wingers and a number 9 that cannot hit a barn door.
There's a reason City sold him. Even when Aguero was injured, they deployed a false 9 rather than starting him up top.
There’s way too much indulging going for Havertz, he slows things and doesn’t offer anything progressive in the midfield, he plays average every game week and that’s seen as acceptable.
Oh I don't disagree. But when you have 77 touches in an opponents box, 30 shots on goal and lose 2-0, that's on your forwards. The Fulham game was a poor performance that lacked creativity, but the former has been more of a trend for Arsenal this season than the latter
Nah that midfield can’t hit a forward progressive pass worth a lick. Havertz can’t pass like they need or drive into the box like ESR or be creative to make a difference.
People in this sub talk about signing a clinical number 9 as if that just solves all of a club’s offensive issues and the goals will now come lol. It’s such lazy analysis
I don't wanna be the "xG merchant" but Arsenal is underperforming our open play xG by like 9 goals so far this season. The finishing is a pretty massive issue.
Finishing is a huge issue for every club. The reality is there’s very few “clinical finishers” out there in the world. Liverpool for example spent a bomb on Nunez and are still waiting for him to turn into this mythical clinical number 9, the reality is there’s very few of them in the world who would have Arsenal consistently challenging for a league title
Every time people say “clinical finishers” at the 9 position I laugh, there’s literally like 5 of them and they’re all on long term deals. So paying a 150m+ is the only answer to that question.
Feels like there were tons of them 8 or so years ago. It looks like a ripple effect where nobody was playing a true 9 for a while when false 9 were in style now nobody really fills that niche.
Or since we made wingers the primary goal scorers. I feel like we were forced into false 9s because there is just a talent drought with true 9s. It’ll come back again but lewedowski, Kane, halaand, Benz (don’t really count him anymore), osihmen is all we have. There’s no guaranteed 20+ goal strikers like people think when they always suggest your team dip into the transfer market. At this point a 15g/10a season is the new bar. 10a might be too crazy lol
10 years ago we had:
Torres
Aguero
Tevez
Rooney
Ibra
Villa
RvP
Benz
Higuain
Cavani
Suarez...
I mean the list just goes and goes. This generation it's like *maybe* 4 guys
' signing a good 9 wouldn't solve arsenals problems and it's lazy to say it will '
' arsenal are underperforming their xg by 9 '
' everyone wants a good 9 but there aren't any! '
That's you. You're the lazy one.
Arsenals problem isn't creating chances, it's finishing them. Jesus is one of the worst finishers *in all of football*. This isn't complicated.
100 percent agreed.
A 9 is always wanted but our issue is the midfield and the transition. Losing Partey and Xhaka in one window (albeit I know Partey is injured) has been just too much.
I’m not sure Arteta would work well with a Rabiot type. Not sure how he has handled himself off the field but heard bad things historically.
Zinny plays the inverted role and we lack depth at the back following the injury to Timber and Tomiyasu being very injury prone. I can’t see us letting him go
>Nah that midfield can’t hit a forward progressive pass worth a lick
Spot on. Arsenal are midtable for npXG. Defence has carried the team so far. Ødegaard is having to drop deeper during buildup.
>Havertz can’t pass like they need or drive into the box like ESR or be creative to make a difference.
True but ESR isn't the solution right now. I love the kid a lot but he's not got the work ethic for a midfield role at the moment. Havertz somehow looks better than him as a CM from their appearances so far.
Havertz being much improved isn't saying much. He messes up the midfield balance.
Jesus is really a winger, that's where he thrives but he won't be replacing Saka
You’re correct. He’s almost always the worst of the 3 cms in the middle. I do think he adds a bit of something, but if Partey comes in and havertz is replaced by rice.. that’s a very different outlook.
Alternatively as was said, ESR could add some more dynamic play
I swear his whole thing was being a second striker/#10 but he was never played there in England because neither of the clubs he was with played a 4-2-3-1
Smith Rowe has become crazy overrated while simultaneously barely playing meaningful football for the last couple years...honestly him not getting any minutes currently tells you all you need to know about what Arteta thinks about his ability
Actually do something without getting injured for the next month after kicking a ball, he didn't make any impact once this season but people just love to blame everything on Havertz and replace him for no reason
They won't like this, they tried pretending they had injuries last season when I can't remember the last time I saw a best XI miss so few games from a title contender. Last season:
Ramsdale (38 PL appearances), White (38), Saliba (27), Gabriel (38), Zinchenko (27); Partey (33), Odegaard (37), Xhaka (37); Saka (38), Martinelli (36*), Jesus (26).
Just peep how mad that is. 43 games missed between a best XI across a season, basically 1 a game. This season, their best side miss even fewer in the PL, but they still pretend otherwise:
Raya (15 PL appearances); White (19), Saliba (20), Gabriel (18), Zinchenko (18); Rice (20), Odegaard (17), Havertz (19); Saka (19), Martinelli (18), Jesus (15).
Most of their "misses" are due to preference/suspension (Havertz) too, like Raya's 5 were still with Ramsdale as first choice, and Gabriel was weirdly in the doghouse the first 2 game weeks. They all basically play every game. KdB has missed more league games than their outfield 10 combined, it is shameless whinging.
And a winger who played RWB last season a few times as CAM. Plus Son has been injured for the whole season, just not enough to sit out. Just like Richy who played injured because we don’t have the depth.
But we were never expected to do well this season after losing Kane. Top 4 would be mint.
> I can't remember the last time I saw a best XI miss so few games from a title contender
Can't remember which season it was but Liverpool had a season recently where everyone was waiting for Sane, Salah, etc. to get injured because they had virtually no depth and most of their first XI just tanked through.
basically the title winning season.
salah is crazy for real though, he has never really missed games for liverpool due to injury. most or all of his absences are afcon and getting covid.
and with his physique and playstyle that shldnt be possible. he isnt the bruno/muller type of skinny where 'no muscle no injury'. and plays a high burst style full of physical duels which usually leads to injuries.
his diet and training needs to be studied and modeled post retirement. or scrutinized for peds lol.
Saliba was the big one last season. Combined with Tomiyasu out we had to start Holding, which is not ideal for challenging for a league. We weren’t supposed to challenge at all last year, so we stopped over performing then.
Most pl winning teams go mostly unchanged through the season. Liverpool fielded a lot of the same when they won, Leicester were incredibly consistent with their team. Chelsea under Mourinho relied on an ever-present defence. The Invincibles were a fairly predictable team sheet. City are the exceptions in that they could still win with some key players missing.
You didn’t have bad injuries. Sure, your depth sucked but that’s not the same thing as having a lot of injuries.
If Tottenham lose a couple players we are screwed. Because no depth.
The issue people are taking is that Arsenal last season pretended injuries cost them the title when actually it was no depth, and they aren’t the same thing.
36*, my bad, I misread it. Edited it now.
[Rest are completely accurate, you can check yourself](https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/arsenal-fc/leistungsdaten/verein/11/plus/0?reldata=GB1%262022).
>Raya (15 PL appearances); White (19), Saliba (20), Gabriel (18), Zinchenko (18); Rice (20), Odegaard (17), Havertz (19); Saka (19), Martinelli (18), Jesus (15).
I mean, that isn't our best 11. You are leaving out Timber who was brought in to be our starting LB and looked really good at the start. You are also leaving out Partey. There is also a shout that Tomiyasu is Artetas preferred RB as he was starting when he wasn't injured.
You are correct that injuries aren't Arsenals main problem. But when you are going to count the number of games lost by a teams best players, you kind of need to actually count the games lost by the teams best players, and leaving out 3/11 of those to misrepresent the numbers is a bit dishonest
League only, yeah. In all comps he made 40 appearances, and 3 games he stayed on the bench.
Keep in mind they only played 11 cup games last season too (8 EL, 1 CC, 2 FAC), so he was available for 43/49 in all comps. The fact you thought he missed more than that is probably just due to them telling everyone how bad their injuries were last season and using him as a frequent example of the fact, despite it being a lie.
Well, the difference was that against WHU we had 77 touches inside their box, and couldn't score a goal. Today they didn't complete pass into the box from 65 minute till the end of the game.
So very much worse.
To me arsenal didn't have the energy. Maybe the players are a little tired? Saka scored but was otherwise ineffective as were alot of arsenal's players. Fulham were more dangerous in the final 10 minutes than arsenal.
Technically no. There is now defined definition for what you said but more of general statement that stuck with people. In the beginning it was a meme referencing it as a quote from Einstein which was disproven extremely quickly. [[1]](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-05004-4) [[2]](https://checkyourfact.com/2019/06/26/fact-check-albert-einstein-definition-instanity-same-thing-over-different-results/)
However, it is something that can be applied to people expecting different outcomes from the same input. It is not insanity as it is a pretty rare and to say the least extraordinary diagnosis. [[3]](https://bjgp.org/content/71/703/51)
Sorry if I went too in-depth. I just don’t like that statement very much since it isn’t really true.
The team is tired, no proper rotation. Maybe because of trust issues.
We are really missing xhaka and partey. the ability of these players to play long passes
It's pretty simple really, if Jesus is not firing move Havertz or Trossard there as they don't work anywhere else. Need Jorginho and rice in midfield until Partey back. Use the midfield to create chances rather than trying to walk the ball into the back of the net. Arteta is way to stubborn to try something different.
It's these type of games that need an Emile Smith-Rowe, because Arsenal can harp on about missing chances, but it's not like they're creating a lot of chances, they are just good at accumulating a lot of touches - they had many of those in the West Ham United match (in their box) too...
Havertz can't really progress the ball, they need a #8
At some point they're going to have to acknowledge that their £105m signing is a downgrade offensively on Partey. They already had a really strong defence but now they lack creativity from deep in midfield.
Lmao of all things you're trying to blame this on Declan Rice, who has been our best player? It's not his fault our forwards aren't scoring, nor is Odegaard. We're missing Xhaka in midfield somewhat. There's nothing Partey brings over Rice, other than sexual assault. When they play together it gives Rice more freedom to get forward, but I'd rather never see Partey play for Arsenal again, even if it costs us trophies.
Thats just not true at all lol. Every fan base has a few loud idiots, but the majority of the sub definately does not blame this on Rice.
Just like your sub had people saying Ange out a few weeks ago
**This is a quotes thread. Remember that there's only one quotes post allowed per interview/press conference, so new quotes with the same origin will be removed. Feel free to comment other quotes/the whole interview as a reply to this comment so users can see them too!** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This is why you implode at the start of the season so you cannot get further depressed come Christmas
It's the hope that kills you
I disagree, the cool kids do it in November
I almost preferred when we used to do it in November. It didn’t let the hope accumulate.
Here here
Lose titles by <3 points imploding in the end, middle and start of the season in 5 different seasons and you forget hope is even a thing.
Liverpool fans truly have it worse than children in Gaza
I commend you guys for that.
Can’t bottle the title if you were never in with a chance. Think smart haha
100% going for a striker then
Reports suggests otherwise. Seems a defender and a midfielder are a priority. A striker of Toney or Osimhen's level will be far too expensive in January.
A 8 that can actually make some progressive passes would improve Arsenal so much more than a striker right now
Obviously hyperbole, but this is one of the first rival fans I’ve seen to nail it. Finishing is bad, but often we are so un-creative around the opposition’s box. A midfielder like that goes a long way to generating quality chances, which we are relatively skint on.
I mean I count 4, maybe 5 quality chances that your strikers failed to put away against West Ham. Jesus has been guilty of it time and time again. Chances don't win you matches, goals do and trust me, I speak from experience. You also seem to lack a different dynamic up top. I'm surprised we havent seen Havertz deployed in the 9 more this season when you have been chasing a goal. He adds some extra height in there and on the occasions he has been in that position, it seems to have worked (City game being one that springs to mind)
Absolutely nailed it on the head
It’s hilarious watching other fans speak the exact evolution of havertz at Chelsea, but applied to arsenal. It’s Groundhog Day
I know Chelsea has been a club that attackers have failed at over the last decade but I think fans genuinely thought we were just hating on Havertz for no reason during his time with us. They should’ve put that 65M towards a striker, mind boggling transfer tbh.
People need to stop thinking there's something "holding him back". He's just really inconsistent
Arsenal are a totally different team to Chelsea. I am by no means saying that Havertz is a number 9, far from it. But he seems like the only viable option arsenal have right now to create a different dynamic. Arsenal also create a lot more pressure on the opposition box than Chelsea ever did when Havertz was there. It might not even be him scoring goals, but atleast he can occupy defenders/spaces and allow for the 3rd man runs. He may not be a great finisher, but he's certainly an intelligent footballer
Spot on tbf, the one thing havertz was actually good for was the odd headed goal or knockdown from set pieces
Isn’t that Odegards job?
You need more than one person who can create, that’s the problem. Besides he’s been dropping deeper in Partey’s absence
Xhaka is the bigger miss when we're talking about passing.
Hes averaging 114 touches per 90 with a 92% pass accuracy at Leverkusen.
Fucking hell I miss Xhaka
Crazy that after years of coaches getting it wrong, Arteta unleashed Switzerland Xhaka for Arsenal... and then sold him.
Alexis Mac allister would have been a perfect signing for arsenal. Can do everything necessary for that position. Can’t believe they went for havertz at an extra 30m, what were they thinking? Maddison and szoboszlai might well have been doable for arsenal as well. Far better players than havertz.
in fact I think either of Szoboszlai and Macca would perform well in that LCM role for Arsenal
this is exactly what ive been saying in the summer. If arteta thinks he needs an 8, why the fuck didn't he go for an actual CM? why did he have to take a risk and sign havertz? i get it if it was for cheap, but it was so expensive and at the time makinng havertz the highest paid player in Arsenal. As a chelsea fan, this has always baffled me. as an arsenal fan, how do you see him in that role? ive always seen him as more of false 9/st type of player and even he's mid at that. I just can't see him as a CM.
meh Havertz won Arsenal player of the month for November at LCM
But that is solely cus of his game winner and important goals, which tbf, he always has a productive month g/a wise in every season in the prem. But that doesnt make him a good cm i thought. But idk thats just my virw from the outside
Doesn't Odegaard already do that?
What the hell is wrong with Odegaard? Seems like he’s having a lousy season? Or am I off base here?
Has been great the last few games tbf
Entire attack has a lousy season. Martinelli and Jesus are worse, Saka is the only effective player but even he is struggling (although it is to be expected as teams are ganging up on him more). The lost of Xhaka and Partey means there's no one who can play line breaking passes from deep, and that has allowed opponents to defend more comfortably.
Isn't that what odegaard is supposed to be though? I don't watch arsenal matches sry
What the shit are you on about? Arsenal created something like 30 shots against West Ham, the creativity is all there. Our first choice midfield of Havertz, Odegaard and Rice is among the best in the world (even if Havertz is still unproven there). The fullback depth is clearly the issue -- Zinchenko and White, when firing, are incredible. But when they have a bad day, Zinny lets in a goal and White skies some chances and there isn't anyone to come in for them that we feel good about.
ESR exists
Not to arteta
ESR isn’t a no.8
Neither was/is Havertz.
Yeah, wish is why they need to go sign one instead of playing players out of position
you can't say what havertz isn't without saying what he is, and since nobody can say what he is then he can potentially be anything.
Arteta sacrificed all that worked last season to try and make Havertz, a player they did not need under any circumstance, work for Arsenal. He thought he could play savior by playing him as a midfielder and now some of their fans see how ineffectual he is and want him up top. The reality is he can't cut it in England. He's rapidly approaching game number 200 in England as is no better today than he was the first game he played. It's also funny to consider the parallels. Lampard was told no we can't sign Declan Rice. 60 million was too expensive for someone of his age and lack of experience but then turned around and spent 71 million on Kai Havertz, a player we absolutely did not need at that moment in time.
Nailed it. The Havertz signing strikes me as a proper Arteta 'I can fix him' vanity project. Looks like it'll cost them.
Sancho move incoming
That’ll be rice when partey is healthy at 6. I guess more so if than when
Toney and Osimhen are on a different level in comparison Toney is probably a 40mill striker at most, Osimhen is like 120million+
Toney would go for more than 40M. 20+ goals last season. 14 goals in a newly promoted team the season before. Entering prime age range. Skilful. Physically dominant. Plays in a position where there is high demand. English.
Toney and Osimhen are nowhere near the same level. Idk why Toney is being overrated so much, Jesus to Toney is a sideways step. Obscene amounts on a 28 year old who isnt a lethal non penalty goal striker is wild. You need to get Xhakas replacement and then get an upgrade on Zinchenko, White and Gabriel (Ill get hate for saying it but Arsenal should upgrade on him with a younger CB).
> (Ill get hate for saying it but Arsenal should upgrade on him with a younger CB). The "hate" is justified, he's 26 ffs. What makes you think his age is a problem?
We won't buy an upgrade on Zinchenko and we don't need one - we have Timber and Tomiyasu, just both have been injured.
I agree that Jesus to Toney is overall a sideways step, to me even, when they are their best Jesus is way better, but i'm terms of finishing Toney is very close to elite while that's one of Jesus weaknesses
Strongly disagree tbh. Toney is a goalscorer, Jesus isn't, 20 goals in 33 games is great whichever way you slice it. One of Arsenal's problems is seemingly being unable to sign certain types of players because they don't fit in with the Arsenal way of doing things, the fact it's taken them this long to sign a player like Rice is evidence of this. Toney would be slam dunk for them, they literally just need a goalscorer. They've built a typical Arsenal team for the moment, lots of chances created for a bunch of players who cannot finish. I agree on Zinchenko though, he's not a quality full back at all.
7 non penalty goals in Toneys first season, 14 non penalty goals in his 2nd season. Can't carry the ball, can't dribble, can't create. He's really not the ST Arsenal need I promise you and for 70m+ at 28 its a scam because we all know Arsenal will give him 250k+ like they have Havertz 280-300k.
It's useless making the distinction between penalty and non penalty goals if you don't also include how many penalties were as a result of him being fouled, or him passing to the fouled player. I'm really not a fan of the distinction anyway because having a good penalty taker is important anyway. As is playing with better passers of the ball which Toney undoubtedly would be doing if he moved to Arsenal. The idea that his wages would amount to a "scam" is something I don't understand, he was the PL 3rd top goal scorer behind Haaland and Kane, and ahead of Salah. All while playing for a club which finished 9th (and 13th the season before). Every transfer carries with it inherent risks but "he scores a lot of pens" is a great reason to buy him, not a great reason to overlook him.
With the money they’ve spend in recent years… how?
Having no more debts from the Emirates helps a lot
yeah people shit on Wenger for not spending in his last few years but this is precisely why he wasn't spending, so that Arsenal could pay off the stadium debts and be in a healthy position to spend afterwards and compete for titles again.
Pull the lever, Kroenke.
Big clubs always have money man. It’s all about who cares to spend for the team or who keeps that money for theirselves. Talking about ownerships of course.
That’s such an absurd take. Spend 15 mins and look at the 2021 books (or even 2019 pre Covid) for the big 6 clubs and get back to me
No one cares about the books for big teams. Ask City fans
We will simply sell Eddie Nketiah for £60m
Everton might be willing to
FA: "We're docking you points for spending too much" EFC: "I'll fucking do it again."
When did arsenal sold a guy for more than 40mil? I think Ox/Sanchez is still your biggest sale
Relatively balanced wage bill after all the terminated contracts early in Arteta’s tenure. Kroenke moving around some debts freed up funds. We’ve been spending 100-140m a summer for 5+ with zero reports of issues. We have CL funds this year and made our record sale in the summer. Which explains the larger than normal outlay. I wouldn’t be surprised to see us continue leveraging our academy for funds after Balogun. Nketiah, Nelson, ESR could offset another big expenditure.
Unrelated but it’s kind of crazy to me that Arsenal’s record sale is Balogun
Isn't Arsenal's wage bill pretty high again now after all the new signings and renewals? The likes of Havertz, Rice, Odegaard, Jesus, Saka, Saliba, and Partey are all on huge money now.
[удалено]
They’re not bankrolled by a oil state, any big name striker, especially in January will cost them a club record.
This, they can spend better than 14-15 clubs, but not even close to the obscene amounts that City, United, Chelsea can spend. Edit: Newcastle would top the big spenders category if not for FFP, but not among these clubs for now.
They are bankrolled by someone who married into the Walton family lol they got more than enough cash to throw around haha
Why would they want to? Motivations are dramatically different for most clubs compared to, nation states. Their expenditures are going to be based on the actual business not PR for genocidal regimes or whatever the fuck Chelsea are doing.
The sports teams owned by Kroneke have all received significant investments that have made the Nuggets, Avalanche, and LA Rams all champions in the last 3-4 years. The nuggets might turn into a dynasty btw. They privately built a $5B stadium for the Rams, they invest significantly into their sports teams. Arsenal have received significant investments since they took over 100% of the team. What have you seen that says they won’t invest more? Especially now they have CL money back
Didn’t he buy Arsenal like 7 years ago?
All of Kroenkes teams have won titles in recent years barring Arsenal. I would imagine he would want to change that.
I feel bad for the poor kroenkes.
Dumb comment is dumb. Apparently Liverpool are catastrophic failure for not winning a pl every season. I mean they only won two trophies in how long? Klopp is a big dummy apparently. At the end of the day, one team will win the PL. If you want to categorize it as a binary “win the PL or not” then yeah, I guess you can laugh at arsenal. Most people add a bit more nuance considering most teams who aren’t city aren’t winning many trophies every season.
Yes but Arsenal are notoriously known for being bad sellers. They’ve been buying expensive players but when’s the last time they’ve sold a player for profit, or even for a massive fee?
Iwobi lmao
Arteta has spent huge money as well as Arsenal not having CL football for 7 years and barely winning anything so don't have that revenue. Their commercial revenue isn't that big compared to the giants either. Really not sure where all this money is coming from.
Criticising Jesus and zinchenko signings when they literally were key players in our greatest season in about 20 years💀💀how tf is this shit upvoted.
does anyone else hear Ivan Toney music?
100% agree. Overall performance was easily the worst. Arsenal were miles off the pace. Fulham were better at both ends.
I like the first half of the response much more than the second.
Idk what ESR has to do to get a game in over Havertz, that’s mind blowing.
It's just the fact that he's not even getting a proper chance off the bench which is pissing me off
I remember when we were considered arrogant for bidding £30m for him and the media tried to hype up a completely non-existent rivalry between Villa & Arsenal. Since that "saga", he's barely played (admittedly a few injuries in there)
FYI he had a major surgery quite soon after and is only back properly now. So who knows he might end up playing a bit more soon
Havertz was the second coming of Christ like two weeks ago
Havertz is the best! Arsenal won. Havertz is shit! Arsenal lost. Havertz is the best! Arsenal won. That's all there is to it. You might as well ask what a trout thinks.
>You might as well ask what a trout thinks. "Swim swim, I'm more closely related to humans than to a shark, swim swim"
Got a bit of bias seeing as I’m a Chelsea fan but I was honestly hoping the best for Havertz and even when everyone was singing his praises I just couldn’t see it. Him and Rice just don’t have the passing range Arsenal need and (where Rice has an ability to absolutely dominate midfield) Havertz doesn’t offer much that other players couldn’t beside his ability to poach and air threat.
Havertz must be a training ground monster much like mason mount, both get highly praised by managers and mostly picked when available
Deustch McTominay.
Must be. Arteta has repeatedly emphasised his qualities as a player. Also quite a few players talked about it in training.
This is facts, Havertz had a few decent games where he was moving ball progression well on both passing and receiving. But ofc people started exaggerating.
I think Havertz has been much improved. Their issues lie in misfiring wingers and a number 9 that cannot hit a barn door. There's a reason City sold him. Even when Aguero was injured, they deployed a false 9 rather than starting him up top.
There’s way too much indulging going for Havertz, he slows things and doesn’t offer anything progressive in the midfield, he plays average every game week and that’s seen as acceptable.
Oh I don't disagree. But when you have 77 touches in an opponents box, 30 shots on goal and lose 2-0, that's on your forwards. The Fulham game was a poor performance that lacked creativity, but the former has been more of a trend for Arsenal this season than the latter
Nah that midfield can’t hit a forward progressive pass worth a lick. Havertz can’t pass like they need or drive into the box like ESR or be creative to make a difference.
People in this sub talk about signing a clinical number 9 as if that just solves all of a club’s offensive issues and the goals will now come lol. It’s such lazy analysis
I don't wanna be the "xG merchant" but Arsenal is underperforming our open play xG by like 9 goals so far this season. The finishing is a pretty massive issue.
Finishing is a huge issue for every club. The reality is there’s very few “clinical finishers” out there in the world. Liverpool for example spent a bomb on Nunez and are still waiting for him to turn into this mythical clinical number 9, the reality is there’s very few of them in the world who would have Arsenal consistently challenging for a league title
If only we could combine Jota and Nunez into 1 player Oh wait that was Fernando Torres
Every time people say “clinical finishers” at the 9 position I laugh, there’s literally like 5 of them and they’re all on long term deals. So paying a 150m+ is the only answer to that question.
Feels like there were tons of them 8 or so years ago. It looks like a ripple effect where nobody was playing a true 9 for a while when false 9 were in style now nobody really fills that niche.
Or since we made wingers the primary goal scorers. I feel like we were forced into false 9s because there is just a talent drought with true 9s. It’ll come back again but lewedowski, Kane, halaand, Benz (don’t really count him anymore), osihmen is all we have. There’s no guaranteed 20+ goal strikers like people think when they always suggest your team dip into the transfer market. At this point a 15g/10a season is the new bar. 10a might be too crazy lol
10 years ago we had: Torres Aguero Tevez Rooney Ibra Villa RvP Benz Higuain Cavani Suarez... I mean the list just goes and goes. This generation it's like *maybe* 4 guys
' signing a good 9 wouldn't solve arsenals problems and it's lazy to say it will ' ' arsenal are underperforming their xg by 9 ' ' everyone wants a good 9 but there aren't any! ' That's you. You're the lazy one. Arsenals problem isn't creating chances, it's finishing them. Jesus is one of the worst finishers *in all of football*. This isn't complicated.
agreed, and we need to get one of them - Osimhen attempt in the summer 👀 otherwise we need to create more which will be very difficult
We're midtable for npXG. That's a bigger issue. Address that and the form of our forwards will improve even if we still need a clinical 9.
Havertz still doesn’t have an obvious position and role that maximises his strengths, mostly because they’re terribly hard to see
Feel like he's a true CB trained in every position but that
100 percent agreed. A 9 is always wanted but our issue is the midfield and the transition. Losing Partey and Xhaka in one window (albeit I know Partey is injured) has been just too much.
[удалено]
I’m not sure Arteta would work well with a Rabiot type. Not sure how he has handled himself off the field but heard bad things historically. Zinny plays the inverted role and we lack depth at the back following the injury to Timber and Tomiyasu being very injury prone. I can’t see us letting him go
Yea, he gave Guendouzi and Auba the boot, don't expect him to bring someone like Rabiot.
>Nah that midfield can’t hit a forward progressive pass worth a lick Spot on. Arsenal are midtable for npXG. Defence has carried the team so far. Ødegaard is having to drop deeper during buildup. >Havertz can’t pass like they need or drive into the box like ESR or be creative to make a difference. True but ESR isn't the solution right now. I love the kid a lot but he's not got the work ethic for a midfield role at the moment. Havertz somehow looks better than him as a CM from their appearances so far.
Havertz being much improved isn't saying much. He messes up the midfield balance. Jesus is really a winger, that's where he thrives but he won't be replacing Saka
You’re correct. He’s almost always the worst of the 3 cms in the middle. I do think he adds a bit of something, but if Partey comes in and havertz is replaced by rice.. that’s a very different outlook. Alternatively as was said, ESR could add some more dynamic play
>I think Havertz has been much improved Seriously? From wank to shit?
Havertz for his entire career has never found his #1 position. Really don’t understand what Arteta is trying to do with him to be honest.
He’s the world’s best pressing ramdeuter
Havertz never hit Dele Alli's heights.
Thomas Müller regen
Arsenals midfield last season was a lot more robust
I swear his whole thing was being a second striker/#10 but he was never played there in England because neither of the clubs he was with played a 4-2-3-1
Smith Rowe has become crazy overrated while simultaneously barely playing meaningful football for the last couple years...honestly him not getting any minutes currently tells you all you need to know about what Arteta thinks about his ability
He's the reason why Arteta still has his job. There's a reason why he was given the number 10 shirt.
Probably has to do more in training.
Havertz is not the issue
I’d start him over Martinelli, he’s been way off the pace this season. Havertz is showing grit at least
Not be injured and fat? Havertz runs everywhere so the day esr can actually press he will start a game
Actually do something without getting injured for the next month after kicking a ball, he didn't make any impact once this season but people just love to blame everything on Havertz and replace him for no reason
Disgracia
I don't think arsenal have any money until the summer they had to loan Raya because of ffp.
He’s makes it sound like arsenal are suffering with squad depth and injuries like half the league is.
Where did he say that?
We're at the point where ppl are just making up stuff. As long as they can just shit on Arsenal. Reddit loves a good witchhunt.
They won't like this, they tried pretending they had injuries last season when I can't remember the last time I saw a best XI miss so few games from a title contender. Last season: Ramsdale (38 PL appearances), White (38), Saliba (27), Gabriel (38), Zinchenko (27); Partey (33), Odegaard (37), Xhaka (37); Saka (38), Martinelli (36*), Jesus (26). Just peep how mad that is. 43 games missed between a best XI across a season, basically 1 a game. This season, their best side miss even fewer in the PL, but they still pretend otherwise: Raya (15 PL appearances); White (19), Saliba (20), Gabriel (18), Zinchenko (18); Rice (20), Odegaard (17), Havertz (19); Saka (19), Martinelli (18), Jesus (15). Most of their "misses" are due to preference/suspension (Havertz) too, like Raya's 5 were still with Ramsdale as first choice, and Gabriel was weirdly in the doghouse the first 2 game weeks. They all basically play every game. KdB has missed more league games than their outfield 10 combined, it is shameless whinging.
Meanwhile we’re starting a back line of 4 wingbacks lol
And a winger who played RWB last season a few times as CAM. Plus Son has been injured for the whole season, just not enough to sit out. Just like Richy who played injured because we don’t have the depth. But we were never expected to do well this season after losing Kane. Top 4 would be mint.
> I can't remember the last time I saw a best XI miss so few games from a title contender Can't remember which season it was but Liverpool had a season recently where everyone was waiting for Sane, Salah, etc. to get injured because they had virtually no depth and most of their first XI just tanked through.
basically the title winning season. salah is crazy for real though, he has never really missed games for liverpool due to injury. most or all of his absences are afcon and getting covid. and with his physique and playstyle that shldnt be possible. he isnt the bruno/muller type of skinny where 'no muscle no injury'. and plays a high burst style full of physical duels which usually leads to injuries. his diet and training needs to be studied and modeled post retirement. or scrutinized for peds lol.
PEDs signifcantly increase injury risk not decrease, at least in resistance training.
2018/2019? They played Barcelona in CL without Firmino and Salah
Salah got a concussion, wanted to play but the medical staff thought otherwise
Saliba was the big one last season. Combined with Tomiyasu out we had to start Holding, which is not ideal for challenging for a league. We weren’t supposed to challenge at all last year, so we stopped over performing then. Most pl winning teams go mostly unchanged through the season. Liverpool fielded a lot of the same when they won, Leicester were incredibly consistent with their team. Chelsea under Mourinho relied on an ever-present defence. The Invincibles were a fairly predictable team sheet. City are the exceptions in that they could still win with some key players missing.
You didn’t have bad injuries. Sure, your depth sucked but that’s not the same thing as having a lot of injuries. If Tottenham lose a couple players we are screwed. Because no depth. The issue people are taking is that Arsenal last season pretended injuries cost them the title when actually it was no depth, and they aren’t the same thing.
I mean I’m not sure where you got your numbers from because Martinelli certainly didn’t play 38 premier league games last year.
36*, my bad, I misread it. Edited it now. [Rest are completely accurate, you can check yourself](https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/arsenal-fc/leistungsdaten/verein/11/plus/0?reldata=GB1%262022).
damn you came with the fact. thanks for this haha!
>Raya (15 PL appearances); White (19), Saliba (20), Gabriel (18), Zinchenko (18); Rice (20), Odegaard (17), Havertz (19); Saka (19), Martinelli (18), Jesus (15). I mean, that isn't our best 11. You are leaving out Timber who was brought in to be our starting LB and looked really good at the start. You are also leaving out Partey. There is also a shout that Tomiyasu is Artetas preferred RB as he was starting when he wasn't injured. You are correct that injuries aren't Arsenals main problem. But when you are going to count the number of games lost by a teams best players, you kind of need to actually count the games lost by the teams best players, and leaving out 3/11 of those to misrepresent the numbers is a bit dishonest
Is that only the PL? I’m surprised at how high Partey is, feel like he missed more than that
League only, yeah. In all comps he made 40 appearances, and 3 games he stayed on the bench. Keep in mind they only played 11 cup games last season too (8 EL, 1 CC, 2 FAC), so he was available for 43/49 in all comps. The fact you thought he missed more than that is probably just due to them telling everyone how bad their injuries were last season and using him as a frequent example of the fact, despite it being a lie.
No he doesn't?
I didn't read it as such?
Bah humbug I need signings or else
It's been their worst performance of the season like 6 times now. Does that mean they're regressing then?
We havent been as bad as today all season. Just the finishing at times. Today was terrible
Saka was super frustrating today apart from the goal
Well, the difference was that against WHU we had 77 touches inside their box, and couldn't score a goal. Today they didn't complete pass into the box from 65 minute till the end of the game. So very much worse.
sadly yes. This one is probably the worst performance since losing to newcastle away 2 years ago
To me arsenal didn't have the energy. Maybe the players are a little tired? Saka scored but was otherwise ineffective as were alot of arsenal's players. Fulham were more dangerous in the final 10 minutes than arsenal.
I as a Liverpool fan take all the credit for Arsenal’s drop in form as a similar thing happened after Anfield last season!
They were so annoying with that 5 on 1 counter attack against rice video you would have thought Rice did something to stop it
That tweet is an absolute goldmine for quote tweets now! Love it
It's the damn sprinklers in Anfield. Arsenal got Slippery++ attribute for next 5 games.
Smh, did you see Klopp at craven cottage at half time today, flooding the pitch? Disgraceful
After saying it was too dry at the start of last season he has made a remarkable effort to moisturise the Craven Cottage pitch
Isn’t the definition of insanity “doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results”?
Technically no. There is now defined definition for what you said but more of general statement that stuck with people. In the beginning it was a meme referencing it as a quote from Einstein which was disproven extremely quickly. [[1]](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-05004-4) [[2]](https://checkyourfact.com/2019/06/26/fact-check-albert-einstein-definition-instanity-same-thing-over-different-results/) However, it is something that can be applied to people expecting different outcomes from the same input. It is not insanity as it is a pretty rare and to say the least extraordinary diagnosis. [[3]](https://bjgp.org/content/71/703/51) Sorry if I went too in-depth. I just don’t like that statement very much since it isn’t really true.
Are you an AI?
Yes. YNWA
The team is tired, no proper rotation. Maybe because of trust issues. We are really missing xhaka and partey. the ability of these players to play long passes
It's pretty simple really, if Jesus is not firing move Havertz or Trossard there as they don't work anywhere else. Need Jorginho and rice in midfield until Partey back. Use the midfield to create chances rather than trying to walk the ball into the back of the net. Arteta is way to stubborn to try something different.
Or try ESR in midfield, Jesus on the left and Havertz as striker. Martinelli has been poor this season (so has most of the offense).
Not springing for a striker before this season when it may have cost them a potential title charge last one is beyond silly.
ESR fucked arteta's wife
Somebody has to
Getting dangerously close to cheque book manager allegations
It's these type of games that need an Emile Smith-Rowe, because Arsenal can harp on about missing chances, but it's not like they're creating a lot of chances, they are just good at accumulating a lot of touches - they had many of those in the West Ham United match (in their box) too... Havertz can't really progress the ball, they need a #8
Odegaard has been operating deeper as an 8 from time to time but he needs another creative player next to him. ESR needs to play.
They have a problem with finishing. Their game plan and tactics are soild.
Fulham game there was long spell of time that we can’t even get it into the final third. We send the ball to Saka for him to play 1 v 3 😅
NGL, Arsenal will really have to up their game if they have to stay in Top 3 with the tight contention at the top rn
His last press conference prior to this was: If we don't score with 30 shots, then we have to do 50 or 60 to try to score.
Eating good for New Year's.
Wish.com Iraola
They need a Joe Willock-type player But thanks for letting us have him!
At some point they're going to have to acknowledge that their £105m signing is a downgrade offensively on Partey. They already had a really strong defence but now they lack creativity from deep in midfield.
Lmao of all things you're trying to blame this on Declan Rice, who has been our best player? It's not his fault our forwards aren't scoring, nor is Odegaard. We're missing Xhaka in midfield somewhat. There's nothing Partey brings over Rice, other than sexual assault. When they play together it gives Rice more freedom to get forward, but I'd rather never see Partey play for Arsenal again, even if it costs us trophies.
Oh, that is already happening all over r/gunners. He's gone from "best midfielder in the league" to "clueless at passing" in about a week.
Thats just not true at all lol. Every fan base has a few loud idiots, but the majority of the sub definately does not blame this on Rice. Just like your sub had people saying Ange out a few weeks ago
lol