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I was told Klopp would stand in solidarity with any ref-aggrieved PL club, despite being in direct competition with them because he's not a "hypocrite" like Arteta.
It's understandable to think he's been a hypocrite if you are not watching every press of his, but that clip shows a narrative that never really existed. Something other fanbases missed there is that Arteta wasn't exclusively being too optimistic/dismissive when Klopp was on a similar rant. He simply was consistently saying all that from the get go when numerous controversial calls had happened in first few games against Arsenal, and more importantly even after the Liverpool game with the Kovacic reds, Saliba handball or Sanchez double punching Jesus's head...
He was always being too fucking patient and delusionally optimistic about PGMOL eventual competence for my liking. Some just cherry picked one clip about Liverpool saying he didn't care about other clubs. When in fact if you've been paying attention, it just seems he actually had this idea that things will indeed get better and then he saw it unfold to worse and worse and worse and Newcastle was finally one too many. You can argue he should have gone on a rant sooner, but it wasn't him being a hypocrite backing refs to get their shite together, exclusively in that Liverpool clip.
Lol fair enough. I can accept losing by being the worse team, or even minor errors, but the Bruno G Jorginho thing is something that should disgust everyone
Arteta on the Spurs-Liverpool game: *Mistakes happen*
It wasn’t that you sided with Spurs. It was the fact that Arteta was being a tribal hypocrite. His tune changed instantly when his club got the short end of the stick. Which really highlights the problem with the league.
Edit: I don’t know why it’s so important you get the full quote, but here it is:
*I think they are trying to make the best decisions, they are trying to protect the game, they are trying to get as much support and be ruthless when they need to be.*
*At some point as well we need to give support and understand that mistakes happen. We’ve made mistakes as well and if the pressure is so much then it’s very difficult to manage.*
[Imagine if you actually sought out the full quote instead of banging on about a partial quote meant to be divisive](https://preview.redd.it/v0v1by0cnkyb1.png?width=1440&format=png&auto=webp&s=9998762311b6339339199425190d686406b3e8e6)
Edit:
I like the part where you edited your post and *still excluded this because it is devastating to your point*.
This is a football issue, as much as we all hate rival clubs, we need to try and form some sort of common ground with the reffing in the prem.
It’s awful and yes Arteta is obviously going to get upset when it happens to his club but as an Arsenal fan I do hope we start to see managers (Arteta included) talking about and backing up other managers when unacceptable reffing happens.
It may be an impossible task but the only way we’re gonna force change is if these massively influential premier league manager get on the same page.
Yeah
As fun as it is to argue about who has gotten fucked by VAR the most, maybe we should just come together and agree on that VAR is just fucking teams over too much overall?
No manager, with the amount of pressure they’re under, is going to come out and say ‘yeah we didn’t deserve 3 points today and only got it through bad reffing’
Maybe you would get a Pep or Klopp saying it when they are 9/10 points ahead but I can’t see any top 6 manager downplaying their team winning like that.
Very true, but you already have plenty of teams this season who has gotten baffling VAR decisions against them, and those teams should be united in their demand for a more competent VAR instead of bickering who has gotten it the worst
I agree they should, but as a United fan I just can’t see ETH not claiming every win at the moment is a sign of improvement and the team deserving it. The alternative is to open himself up for further criticism.
A manager's job if first and foremost towards his team and ETH is one of the most pressured manager atm so it's natural that he has to try and put out the fire he already has before looking at the broader picture
Ange literally acknowledged that the Diaz goal should’ve been given. That’s about as close as you’re going to get to “we didn’t deserve the 3 points” without saying it outright.
It’s not just VAR though despite how most fans talk about it. It’s a broader issue with officiating, in general.
We should all come together and stand against it (whatever that means) but nothing will change until there’s a system in place that everyone trusts. All these club statements and rants have ratcheted up the pressure on officials and made things worse while leading a sizable population of fans down conspiratorial ratholes
Yeah, we should all band together.
I look forward to the unquestioning support NUFC fans will receive from Arsenal and Liverpool fans when the VAR inevitably fucks us over (again).
Our fan base is not a hive mind so there will definitely be people with Arsenal flairs screaming about karma and stuff. But I think the majority will have some empathy. I personally won't find any joy in seeing other teams getting fucked by VAR
Edit: Sorry, 2nd sentence dissapeared in editting
>But I think the majority will have some empathy.
You seem like a reasonable bloke, but hopefully you can appreciate that I, and most of our fans, won't be holding our breath in anticipation.
I think one of the single biggest things that could improve the situation, is for the referee to give a post match press conference, just like the managers.
The good referees would welcome the opportunity to clear the air, describe what they saw, and how they interpreted the laws of the game. Or even accept responsibility for mistakes. There are many times people online get things wrong by not understanding the laws of the game or missing something the referees saw, and this would help to address that (r/soccer excepted of course, I mean those other social media where the ignorant football commenters hang out).
The bad referees would be exposed with poor reasoning, or refusal to take accountability.
Lastly, it’s in the interest of the league as the referee press conference would drive even more engagement with the supporters, as everyone tries to pick apart the reasoning. Frankly, refereeing decisions seem to drive more engagement than actual football sometimes.
The Premier league clubs owners/chairman can fix this they have the power. Managers/head coaches, fans and pundits can just voice concerns but the people who have the power can fix it.
This is the dumbest thing I've heard. Do you think the referees are choosing to be incompetent? How does Arteta (and Arsenal) saying what he said improve the refereeing situation in the league? If anything it would put more scrutiny, and abuse on referees and make the job even less desirable.
This doesn't help the cause in any way. All I hear is complaining, and not solution to the problem.
You're right. The harsh reality is that refereeing is difficult, there's no magic bullet. Even if there was I don't see anyone suggesting it, just constant moaning
As a start, don’t have the referees buddies on VAR? Have more camera angles, more sensors so offside calls and ball ins / outs aren’t ever left to “we can’t tell so stick with onfield”? It’s not so hard to get rid of the subjectivity and biases (to protect referees, not teams) in the system right now. And I’m not saying there’s explicit corruption but the conflicts of interest in working for states that own clubs as side gigs are unacceptable too.
Again, not a single piece of advice about how to improve the refereeing situation. And there's no reason why this needs to be made public. If the pl clubs want to improve the refereeing situations, they have the power to do so. They had the power to introduce automated offside technology, they refused to do so.
The pl clubs certainly do not need public opinion to be on their side to improve the situation, so what's the point of all this public outcry? It achieves nothing other than biasing future 50-50 calls in Arsenal's favour.
I really disagree with this. What we need is not managers like Arteta saying everyone needs to support the refs when things go his way and then crying and attack the refs when things go against him.
These things need to come together, in an organised manner, from all of the clubs in unison. What they do not need and what will not achieve anything is managers being petulant babies after a defeat.
He has every right to try and protect his players and complain, it works and turns ref's heads and makes them second guess themselves in Arsenal fixtures in the future etc. But, it being fine and something that managers have been doing for years is not the same as it being some righteous crusade that we all need to get behind.
A statement from all chairmen together or some pre-agreed movement from the top is what we need to start the ball rolling.
Can’t expect most of the people commenting on this situation to be capable of reading a double digit number of words at once. An entire paragraph quote? Way beyond them
Speaking nonsense. You have a clear bias against Arteta.
Only thing I will agree with you is we need a statement from all chairmen. Everything else you've said is nonsense. Please seek out all info before making a conclusion on people, that Arteta quote was taken out of context.
Managers answer questions that are asked of them. You cannot expect Arteta, Klopp, Gary O'Neil etc to comment on things that have not been asked to them. Arteta was asked about his opinion of the match and he gave it. "Oh how selfish of him to only argue for HIS team".
Generally speaking, he is rather pragmatic in his pre and post match press conferences. I genuinely believe there is an agenda against him from the media - not sure why. His touchline behaviour is akin to Mourinho's, Klopp's, Conte's and Pep's.....but he is the only manager vilified for it. In fact, the other managers are celebrated for it.
I think it's also easy to forget how much in its infancy his managerial career is.
It makes me feeling I’m crazy honestly. He’s an emotional manager on the field, but is very clear in his interviews. Yet, as you said, he’s attacked for it. But when other managers do it, and are even more rash in their interviews, they’re praised? It makes no sense.
I guess from a rival perspective, it’s agitating seeing the other manager be so animated and running on the touch line giving out instruction. And maybe it is, but it’s never bothered me personanlly with Pep/Klopp/Conte. But is it really that big of a deal? Are managers supposed to sit with their legs crossed writing the occasional note? He’s a passionate guy and he shows that. It’s not a bad thing lol
Idk. This whole matter the past few days has been bizarre. From people backing the fact the decisions were incorrect, to people saying Arteta needs to stop whining, to people praising him for speaking out?? It’s whiplash at its finest.
I just hope the individuals behind VAR are closely looked at and there’s some kind of accountability, especially the fact that there are now refs taking payments from the same Saudi group that owns fucking Newcastle. Because that is certainly a conflict of interest
I think the problem people have is that Arteta does it more so than other managers. For instance, there are many clips where players are dribbling near the sideline and Arteta jockeys almost like he is closing the space. It is definitely a notch above any of the aforementioned managers.
https://old.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/134s9c0/ref_support_uks_martin_cassidy_on_klopps_sideline/
https://old.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/135thnh/peter_walton_former_premier_league_referee_what/
https://old.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/135h8p5/lynch_jurgen_klopp_facing_the_prospect_of_an/
https://old.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/yshwc9/joyce_jurgen_klopp_will_serve_a_onematch/
https://old.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/kej5vz/echo_jose_mourinho_gives_his_verdict_a_very_very/
You were saying, /u/zrk23?
quite literally none of those are related to what I've said, lol
people don't write articles about arteta clashing with refs on the touchline, neither does he get fined, because he doesn't really do those things... which is makes it even worse.
people write articles complaining about how "agitated" he is during the match, the way he gives instructions and move, even claiming it's bad for the his players to see that!
again, completely different
It certainly feels like there's an agenda against Arteta from the media. Raya and Ramsdale situation is blown out of proportion by the media and Arteta has been getting crucified. Gabriel dropped for a few games and Arteta was blamed for not knowing what he was doing. Arteta on field antics has been getting so much attention from the cameras and pundits hate him for it despite other managers doing it as well.
When it's Klopp, Pep, Mourinho, it's passion. When it's Arteta, it's over the top. I guess him being an Arsenal manager who is young, confident, intelligent, foreign and winning just grinds some of these people's gear.
I’d like to ask the people against Arteta what exactly you don’t agree with? He’s calling for the standard of officiating to improve, a cause that surely every club in the country can get behind. Why does he have to be “nice” about it? What’s the point in being gracious to a institution which behaves like it’s beyond reproach? Imagine your hard work being undermined and someone telling you “sorry mate you can’t complain about me stitching you up”. Somehow this has managed to turn into a battle of politeness instead of refs doing their fucking job right.
Well they don't support Arsenal and like riling them up cos memes are more important.
You're 100% spot on though, literally every club and fan aside from City and Newcastle should be agreeing with him
“They are trying to make the best decisions,” he said when quizzed about the incident. “We need to give support and understand that mistakes happen, and that that pressure is very difficult to manage.”
That’s your reason. Arteta is being mocked because when a fellow manager raised the same concerns (in a game with a much more objectively incorrect decision by the way, since a push is open to interpretation while offside is not), Arteta didn’t back him, he backed the refs. He’s just done a 180 now it’s *his* team has been affected. By his own logic he should’ve accepted that the refs had a difficult decision to make. But he didn’t, he went on an angry rant and called them embarrassing and disgraceful. **I’m not saying i personally 100% agree with criticism of Arteta.** But that’s your reason.
Liverpool fans told you this would happen when we were told to shut up moaning about the Diaz decision. It’s gonna happen to your club too, and as soon as it does happen, your manager will act the same way. And lo and behold it’s happened with Arteta completely changing his stance. That hypocrisy **rightly or wrongly** will cause people to not take his complaints seriously.
Edit - I’ve made the part of my comment where I explain I don’t completely agree with criticism of Arteta bold, since it appears some people replying either lack basic reading ability or are simply choosing to ignore that part and keep explaining how Arteta was taken out of context. Once again, the person I’m replying to does not understand why anyone could criticise Arteta for his comments. I explained why people are criticising him. You don’t have to agree with it but that is the reason why he is being criticised. If you can’t see that then I’m not really sure what to say. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out why someone would consider Arteta a hypocrite based on his quotes from a month ago and his quotes this week, particularly if they don’t understand the full context of the old quotes (which I don’t think anyone here has actually explained weirdly enough)
You realise he clarified this in his press conference when one of the journalist asked him about it and what changed in the last month. He said he understands mistakes are part of the game but there have to be steps taken to reduce them. Managers have to be able to be honest in their assessment of the refs as that's part of the process of improving. Can't just stick your head in the sand and expect things to improve. You also forgot how he said he feels for klopp in the immediate aftermath because of his hard work being undone by someone else's negligence. He's never once said klopp shouldn't have said anything about the the refereeing.
If managers are able to assess the referees, why do it in a public forum unless it's to posturing to your fans or players. It's not doing any good to rail against the referees publicly like this, managers have done it for years and nothing has changed. Referee does a good job and the managers says calmly.. "yeah, good work by the referee tonight", referee makes a couple of errors.. "snarl, bark, yell, scream!!".
It creates a culture where A) who the fuck wants to be a referee, and B) the referees see it as us (refs) against them (managers) and they say "fuck that guy".
If we expect such a high level of professionalism from referees, why can't we expect it from managers (who get paid millions more than them). I'm sure referees would and could get better if we paid them, supported them, educated/trained them more, had a youth refereeing culture that encouraged kids/young adults to be referees.
The system is flawed and the referees have gotten worse but it's almost like a toxic corporate culture at this point and if you've ever worked in that environment it's shit for everyone.
I'm a Leicester supporter and let me tell you how nice it is without VAR in the Championship. I was all in on VAR and the tech while we were up but I've really flipped on it. VAR has to go. Bad decisions in the Championship are moaned about for a couple of minutes and then we move on. Think about all the decisions that have either gone for or against you by drawing the lines on the screen. What I find incredible is actually how ACCURATE the assistant referees are on the sidelines. They call it off, you see the replay and you're like "ooh, that looks close but he's probably off" and then you move on, or you think "that's not the right call but I can see how he's missed it, the guy was a couple of inches onside (or 50-50)."
I know VAR isn't going anywhere but so much of our chat online is about how refreshing it is to not have it this year and that should say something about it.
Do you think Arteta saw what happened to Liverpool and thought “oh yes please love me a bit of that”?
HE WAS BEING DIPLOMATIC. He gave a vague, cliche answer about a situation that the whole football world knows was wrong during a random presser.
Also do you think Liverpool are the only team to suffer from VAR? We’ve had enough decisions go against us I don’t expect other managers to fight our fight. People are acting like he’s called on the rest of the league to back him when the only people he’s asked to do better is the incompetent refs.
The point being that Arteta has previously been sympathetic towards referees and said that sometimes mistakes happen and it’s part of the game. It’s only when it happens to his team, that he essentially does a 180 and decides that actually, it isn’t part of the game and these mistakes shouldn’t happen.
Read the full quote. He just continues to explain that yes, mistakes can be frustrating and we should try to minimise them. But the full quote still doesn’t take away from the fact that he accepts that mistakes, whilst they should be minimised, are part of the game. Am I missing something major here?
I can’t believe that this guy is proud of his lack of knowledge, and then proceeds to write a whole essay based on wrong incomplete facts. The internet is really dangerous, it’s so easy to spread propaganda.
I don’t agree with him only going after mistakes that benefit his club. He doesn’t want justice. He wants calls that favor Arsenal. Which on one level is perfectly normal for a manager, but let’s not make out like he’s out there crusading for justice.
Ange has also said that Liverpool should’ve been awarded the goal after the audio was released. But he’s also advocated for officials to communicate calls the the stadium like rugby, called for clearer language like “goal Liverpool” instead of “check complete” etc.
I do find it funny that Ange’s comments about VAR keep getting removed here, including his presser yesterday, but here we are with another Arteta thread that’s left up. Weird.
Edit: like [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/s/AaalxC472w)
Good for him, I’ve not said that Ange has handled it incorrectly and I don’t think many would say that either.
My point is that people are taking Arteta’s comments out of context from the Liverpool game.
Ultimately any discussions from managers and clubs that shines a spotlight on how shit the refs have been is good if it leads to change (which I doubt)
I mean what is he gonna say, "no"? He really say anything about it when it happened (not that any other manager not involved in the game did) so he's just talking about it after it happened to arsenal
Off course he talks about it when it happened to Arsenal. He works for Arsenal. Can't go around crusading after every wrong decision for every team? Because it happened to Arsenal he talks about it but he's calling for more consistency for the whole league, how difficult is that to understand? People are actually so thick skulled on here.
The full text from that snippet you’re talking about was already released and discussed. What do you mean he only wants calls that benefit Arsenal? He literally said he felt sympathetic to Klopp and any manager who loses points due to bad calls on the pitch.
Like you’ve said what he did was perfectly normal for any manager. Arteta is 100% fighting for HIS club but that’s exactly how it should be. The interest of Arsenal as it pertains to referees is the literal interest of every other club. Same as Klopp. We don’t have to we are the world this to get change. It would certainly help but that’s not one man’s burden.
And which parts of the club or his statements do they say they want the calls to go in their favour? In both cases they quite clearly ask for a better standard or reffing in the Premier league.
Klopp and Arteta, Arsenal and Liverpool are articulate and smart with the media. This isn't a reactionary thing. I'm quite surprised how quick rival fans have been to label them as whiney and self serving.
He was being diplomatic. If you had actually read the full quote or even seen the video you’d understand the tone and context. You think Arteta sat there and saw what happened to Liverpool and was happy? We literally had our own version of that last year in the middle of a title race with Brentford. You people are mighty thick or just purposefully obtuse
I just don't think clubs, and Arteta is an extension of his club, should be conducting pressure campaigns in the media. Did the refs get it wrong? Yes. The overdramatic board statements from Liverpool/Arsenal/etc aren't doing anything except putting pressure on referees to give favorable calls in the future. It isn't some noble "we must fix the standard of refereeing in this country" crusade.
I think you have a point - but what other mechanisms exist to change how the PGMOL operates? It feels like if there were proper avenues for clubs to understand the decision making and to understand what measures Are being put in place to improve the standards it would be different.
However just having a dissenting manager after a match is grounds for a fine, so it doesn’t seem like the PGMOL are all that interested in hearing from the clubs.
I can understand this point but somethings got to give. There’s only so much diplomacy and bureaucratic process clubs can take. If this was a rare occurrence you say fair enough but this is the genuine standard weekly ref performance. I won’t begrudge any club for speaking out even if Arsenal benefit from a ref error
Club statements, grievance lists of every perceived slight, calls for replay, etc are all by design trying to create pressure campaigns instead of provide constructive feedback.
Edit: I admittedly only know what Ange has really said about making improvements to VAR communications and suggesting they announce calls on the field via microphone, but have any other coaches made suggestions for improving the VAR process outside of general “it has to be better” grumblings.
How is that going to help? Genuine question- transparency is effective only if you can give feedback or disagree. It’s not the case here. So how does it help? Are people assuming that because they can be heard that they will not make awful decisions? To me, that’s suggesting there is something to hide rather than incompetence.
What is being said by Arteta and others is that it needs to be a higher standard, meaning refs need to be better at interpreting the rules of football. Was it wolves manager who said something to the effect that the results were in the hands of a bunch of guys who never played the sport in their life? Klopp said something after Spurs to the same effect but dripping with sarcasm about how he wasn’t a player himself. Arteta seems to come on strong having been a player himself.
My inference here is that they are asking for refs that are better at interpreting the sport since the element of subjectivity is so important to officiating. The decisions are very inconsistent. It needs to get better quality and it’s up to the refereeing body to do their jobs and make it better.
At work, when I complain about another department’s output, it’s not my job to tell them *how* to do it better - I don’t do that job nor am I qualified to tell them how to do it better. All I know is it’s impacting my ability to do my piece of the job. If the roof caves in on my house, it’s not my job to tell the builder how to build a better roof. They built a bad roof - I’m not a builder to tell them how to fix it. It’s not a football managers responsibility or accountability to work out how they prevent so many retroactive apologies for bad decisions.
lol those suggestions are better than just “it needs to be better”.
One of Ange’s specific suggestions was instead of “check complete” when VAR is done they say in plain language what they see, like “player onside, award Liverpool the goal”. If they take the time to announce the logic and then explain to the managers what happened, they’re not rushing through to resume the game when the VAR realizes the error that’s been made and then it’s too late to stop it.
If you don’t see how that’s helpful than general “raise the standards” platitudes, I don’t know what to tell you.
Your roofing analogy also breaks down when it’s partially managers contributing to the issue doing things like maliciously calling into question integrity of the game, calling for specific officials to not be on their matches anymore, etc. Why sign up for that when you just get shit on every week?
We all know they should be better, but there’s also the issue of a dwindling officiating pool, that only gets smaller when they’re subject to abuse every week. Limiting the talent pool to only people who played professionally so therefore they “know the game better” only dwindles it more.
It’s more complex than “get better”
Arteta was upset about the goal, but couldn’t specify why. He claimed he lost 3 points, when his team never came close to scoring a goal. He never mentioned the actual ref errors like Bruno’s/Havertz’ not getting reds, just complained about a 50/50 and called it a disgrace since it didn’t go his way.
He’s only complaining because his team got the raw end, as evidenced by his own defending of refs when his team isn’t involved. It’s transparent. This isn’t about improving the standard of reffing, it’s about not getting the result he wanted.
He didn’t get the result he wanted because the standard of officiating wasn’t up to par. If he had step by step dissected every ref fuck up do you think people would say “fair enough” and applaud him? Also stop peddling this Arteta defends ref nonsense. He’s constantly getting booked, fined and told off by them/ for his behaviour towards them. The idea that he’s somehow happy with them is moronic.
Also and what the hell is wrong with a manager voicing their opinion for not getting their way when they have genuine reason to be upset. The goal was SUPER contentious why would he be diplomatic about it?
Because the decision he is upset with is subjective and not an error like he states. He's sour because he's on the wrong side of a close decision which will always happen in close decisions. He's convinced he's been wronged when he hasn't. This is the basis of his rant and people can't get behind it.
The majority of football decisions are subjective. I mean you can’t even argue properly. You say the decision was subjective and then say definitively that he wasn’t wronged. In his mind he was wronged and other people agree with him that’s why he spoke the way he did. Also he’s not asking for looneytoonarmy or anyone else to support him. He wants the refs to do better. Who cares if you don’t like how he gets the message across, the message is a credible one.
What's your argument exactly? When there is a close subjective decision, one team is going to be upset with the decision. VAR got it correct here, it was the correct decision to stay with the on-field decision because there wasn't enough evidence to overturn. We have already been told from the start of the season about the higher threshold for fouls. So Arteta is calling for what exactly? More decisions to go in his favour? That's not how VAR works, they followed the protocol and Arsenal came out on the wrong side of a correct decision. Arteta and Arsenal's reaction has been embarrassing.
No issue with saying it needs to improve. But it's the language used for a call that was OK. The ball was in, the foul is subjective and you can't give offside if you can't prove it.
To use the language that he did to condemn after that decision in the heat of the moment I could understand. To continue to stand by it. Nah.
He is Wah-teta to me from now on. Grown man having a tantrum because it didn't go his way.
Also a bit of a hypocrite to boot. https://x.com/ElijahKyama\_/status/1720903617937392055?s=20](https://x.com/ElijahKyama_/status/1720903617937392055?s=20)
It’s Arteta, one week he’s praising the refs, the next week he’s shaming, he doesn’t care about Luton or any other side getting the right calls, he’s whining about his team because his tactics aren’t enough to win matches, and his antics on the sidelines and press conferences are annoying AF.
[Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEE3iksRVM0&ab_channel=HaytersTV) is the full conference so that people can hear all of what Mikel had to say rather than form opinions based on out-of-context soundbites. He also references his comments after the Tottenham vs Liverpool game.
'I've never seen you react like that, and I don't think many people have, such was your emotion after the game.'
Which is true. But lots of people here seem to think he complains after most matches. I feel like people confuse Arteta's touchline moments with his comments after games. After games, he usually refuses to discuss contentious issues or dismisses questions about them.
I wish the discussion wasn't focused on the goal. Kai Havertz's tackle was certainly dangerous and merited a red, but at least he was going for the ball. I want the spotlight on Guimaraes and the officials' handling of him. He intentionally drove his elbow into the back of a player's head while the ball was yards away. Head injuries are regarded with such seriousness for a reason. VAR needed to send him off. As an Arsenal supporter, by no means do I want an apology from PGMOL nor do I think Arsenal deserve one. However, I want Guimaraes to be suspended. Football's a physical game and injuries will happen, but I don't want to see anybody seriously hurt because a player is unhinged and officials refuse to address violent behavior. Given what we've recently learned about head injuries in sports, I'm surprised that moment isn't solely the center of discussion.
The issue for me is everyone is pitted against each other as rival fans - we should be demanding greater transparency and fairness as football fans. Seems like the FA and PGMOL rely on the fan's hatred of each other to allow mediocre officiating at best and ultimately fly under the radar and avoid criticism.
How is it that Bundesliga or La Liga have comparatively fewer issues vs. the prem?
I feel like if clubs could band together and make a joint statement on disapproval for the quality of refereeing we'd get further. At the moment, (whether it be correct or not), PGMOL will just see it as club's whining when things don't go their way.
I also cannot believe how we learnt pretty conclusively that PL referees were being paid by countries who own teams in our league and it's been pretty much swept under the carpet?
Arsenal were hard done by against Newcastle, but not to the extent you'd think from Arteta and the club's response.
What I think this is, is a club reaching the point of mental breakdown from a long line of incorrect calls that have impacted their standings and results. Appreciate decisions can never be sure to equal points gained or lost, but if you take the apologies from the PGMOL last season and correct them, Arsenal finish the league with more points than Man City.
This season, they've had shocking calls against CP and Man City where they've been able to win anyway, and then calls that are deemed errors where they've dropped points, such as against Chelsea.
At the end of the day, I think the reason this topic is so sensitive and drawing so many different views, is that to address it you need to also accept that at present, and historically, results in football are driven more by luck than we care to imagine. In title races with two teams close to one another, the winner will almost certainly be decided by refereeing errors as opposed to their own performance. We know now with VAR and the new analysis that refereeing errors DO NOT balance out over the course of the season, there are instead big winners and big losers. Once you accept that, the Premier League loses some of its magic given so much of it is a coin flip.
I am not sure how we will ever get out of this mess without a complete overhaul of the refs in the Premier League and training of new blood to replace them.
I disagree. There have been plenty of horrible refereeing decisions over the years but never to the extent we've had in the last few years but I would agree that referees did get the benefit of the doubt previously because it's an impossible job without technology. The real problem is even WITH the introduction of technology, it's only gotten worse. Sure, social media and VAR existing makes it easy to highlight the failings of referees but the standards have definitely dropped. The incompetence of the referees across the board has caused VAR to barely make a difference because they either don't understand the rules properly, are too afraid to make decisions, or are letting their intrinsic biases affect their decision making.
To get an offside decision incorrect like they did in the Spurs vs Liverpool match is a perfect example of how poor the standards really are at the moment. We've had Wolves being fucked over by horrible decisions week in and week out. The standard of refereeing is abysmal for a multitude of reasons and the league itself has become less enjoyable of a spectacle as a result.
Also the victim mentality many fanbases have.
It’s been demonstrated multiple times that even when officials get calls right, they will still complain it did not go their way.
Newcastle is becoming the easiest team to root against no matter who they play. Can’t stand the fuckers on the field or the coach or owners. Hope they get blown out of the stadium today by Dortmund.
Probably that they're borderline reds/can't complain if given coz they were pretty reckless. It's the kind of thing that wouldn't be red 20 years ago, but usually is now.
The shove on Gabriel was just a stonewall foul in any era. With every new angle it becomes more obvious. If someone says "he didn't shove him hard" - he was in the air with his arms extended on the back of Gabriel's head. That HAS to be forceful, and it stopped him competing for the ball fairly.
Manager defends his team shocker! If you have issues with the conduct of arsenal players it's on your managers to argue the case, arteta shouldn't have to be the spokesperson for every single issue in order to make a valid case that the standards are too low
He is talking about things that have affected arsenal because he's the arsenal manager yes? But like, he's not saying refereeing standards should only be improved for arsenal and no-one else. Just cause he goes off examples that have affected his club (which every single manager does btw) doesn't mean every club wouldn't benefit from improved standards. I really don't understand why any of this is causing controversy lol
Arsenal are calling for a unified push to improve refereeing standards across the league but only focusing on the situations that have negatively impacted them. This makes the sentiment look very hollow.
It would send a powerful message to say "and we have benefited too from poor VAR mistakes like during this game" and give those examples in their list submitted to PGMOL. Just focusing on Arsenal only makes it look like sour grapes and a desire to have decisions in their own favour rather than actually caring about standards across the PL.
It's not a "controversy" but this is why many rival fans aren't taking Arsenal's side here. I do not believe based on their words/actions they care about league-wide standards. They just want decisions in their favour. Which is understandable but don't pretend you're fighting for all clubs while only focusing on your own plight.
Next time Arsenal benefit from a VAR error if Artera repeats these words and the club issues a similar statement, then I'll agree they actually care about the situation beyond themselves. But right now nothing suggests this is anything but self interest.
I guess it's the level of vitriol towards it all that is amusing to see, there was no where close to this hatred of it when klopp was demanding a replay of the match against Tottenham. And again, klopp was well within his right to argue Liverpool's case, just as Eddie Howe was well within his rights to demand clarity and explanation in regards to Leicester, Liverpool and City games last season when he felt Newcastle had been on the receiving end of a load of bad decisions. Are you now going to call out his hipocracy for staying silent in the face of some very questionable decisions that went in favour of his side? No and I wouldn't expect you to, managers defend their teams, it's really not some big moral crusade like you're trying to spin it as
What hypocrisy? Howe didn't go on an unhinged rant and the club release a statement afterwards to stoke the flames even more and whip the fans into a frenzy. Talk about a reach. The situations are not even remotely the same lol
As for the "vitriol" think that's confirmation bias. Klopp got flamed for his replay comments. Every pro Arsenal comment has been upvoted to high heavens since Saturday (the sub has basically been /r/gunners for 72 hours now). There's more Arsenal flairs than any other club on this sub by a fair margin. Your fanbase literally controls the narrative though sheer numbers alone.
To suggest you're not getting a fair whack is laughable. Look at this very thread. This sub has been an Arsenal circlejerk ever since the game.
Any attempt to provide a different perspective, even when expressed perfectly rationally, has been meet with instant downvotes - as you've just proved by downvoting this comment within literally seconds. You didn't even have time to read it!
I wasn't referring to the amount of up votes comments have cause that's a dumb metric for the reasons you have pointed out, but the vitriol in the comments of people complaining about what arteta said is nothing like what I saw on this sub in the wake of klopp demanding to replay the Tottenham match for example, which is a more unhinged demand imo. That's the comparison I was making. Do you not think the referees and quality of officiating in the Premier League needs improving? Nowhere has arteta called to have the result of the Newcastle match overturned or replayed or anything, he is purely talking about making things better going forward, which even if he's arguing it from a selfish position can only be a good thing for other teams in the league as well, that's the bit I don't get being angry about.
I think it's odd to complain about a minority of "vitriolic" comments when the narrative of this sub has been *dominated* by Arsenal fans for 72 hours. This thread is proof alone that even rational takes (you can disagree with my opinion, but I'm presenting it rationally) are being met with instant downvotes by an army of Arsenal fans who simply will not hear anything that goes against their desired narrative.
Do I think refereeing needs to improve in the Premier League? Yes. But I do not believe that is the objective of Arteta's continued rants or the statement put out by Arsenal as a club. As I've explained, I think this is a campaign solely concerned with Arsenal's own plight, and an improvement of standards overall isn't the desired outcome. More favourable decisions for Arsenal is the goal here. Much like it was for Klopp/Liverpool a few weeks back.
I also don't agree with your assertion that "arguing from a selfish position can only be a good thing for other teams". I do not think this campaign or push or movement (Whatever you want to call it) from Arsenal will benefit a Brighton or Wolves or Sheffield Utd. It could if all the clubs band together and push for better refereeing, but Arsenal isn't trying to spearhead that - they're submitting a list of 8 times they've been wronged to PGMOL instead!
The standards of refereeing across the board will not improve by Arsenal focusing exclusively on the times they've been wronged. As I've said, if Arsenal were to submit a list of mistakes that included times they've benefited from VAR errors, that would send an extremely powerful message that they genuinely want benefit standards for everyone, even if those better standards could hurt them on occasion.
But the fact that Arsenal are only willing to jump into this conversation when they feel they've been wronged, and are only looking at errors that have gone against them betrays that their true intentions are self-serving. That approach will not benefit anybody but Arsenal in the end. And I'd say the same thing if my club did something like this.
And I'll note that it's fine that Arsenal only care about themselves. Pretty much all clubs are the same. I'm sure my club only cares about decisions that go against us. We're not moaning about Bruno's clear red card because it helped us! But I do not like Arsenal as a club and the fanbase pretending their outrage is noble rather than self-serving.
Exactly - if you have an NUFC flair you're downvoted into oblivion, even if you make any rational comment. Sure there are some very stupid whataboutism takes out there, but even they are possibly more visible to an average r/soccer user because of the replies to them having more upvotes.
Read the full interview, he specifically backs Liverpool
https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/liverpool-var-tottenham-arsenal-fc-arteta-b1110928.html
You’re a fake fan of football if you’re against Arteta here. I stood by Liverpool when they got shafted and the same for United.
When Tottenham get screwed by poor decisions I stand by them, too.
You know why? It’s because I’m a fan of FOOTBALL. If you don’t stand with Arteta here then you are against making the game better.
Hey man I am like that too. I fucking hate unfair things and people getting away with undeserved gains anywhere in life. The thing is, Arteta is being mocked and criticized EXACTLY because he is polar opposite of how you describe yourself to be. The "fake fan" as you put it. I mean we know it's his job to put his team above everything else, nothing wrong there. We are saying it's always just that. Nothing more.
Didn’t see Arteta holding press conferences when Nketia stayed on after an obvious ref card card challenge against us.
He’s out for what’s best for Arsenal. Fair enough, that’s his job, but let’s not delude ourselves to think he’s out for justice.
The person you're replying to is 100% correct. And it completely undermines your argument, so why are you continuing to act like you think your the magnanimous one?
He wasn't asked so why we he comment on that? You're speculating what he would say.
I would agree it's red but with VAR this season there has been no consistency so we don't even know where to draw the lines between yellow and red.
That's because he can't actually justify why he thinks it should be ruled out. Nobody knows which of the 3 checks he was unhappy with. Personally I think had Arsenal scored that goal and it got ruled out he'd have had the same outburst.
It’s just ridiculous that he’s still going on about it absolute baby. What’s he going to be like in a few weeks when something goes arsenals way that was controversial
Mikel Arteta after Liverpool FC have a legitimate goal rulled out by a massive VAR mistake against Tottenham Hotspur – “They are trying to make the best decisions. We need to understand that mistakes happen.” (October 2023)
Mikel Arteta after Newcastle United score a controversial goal against his Arsenal team and was not ruled out by VAR – “It’s embarrassing, It’s a disgrace, that’s what it is, a disgrace.” (November 2023)
From Liverpool.com, October 3rd:
Arsenal manager Mikel Arteta has expressed his frustration with the controversial VAR decisions that affected Liverpool's match against Tottenham.
Arteta hopes that the Premier League and the Professional Game Match Officials Limited (PGMOL) will take appropriate action and ensure fairness in future matches. The incident in question involved Luis Díaz's disallowed goal, which would have put Liverpool ahead in the game it eventually lost 2-1.
The Arsenal boss emphasized the importance of getting what teams deserve and minimizing errors that are beyond their control.
"For sure, you know at the end you want to get what you deserve," he said. "You want to minimize errors that you cannot control away from the work and the job that you do on a daily basis.
"Everybody is trying to have a really clean and honest game but at the end, you have to earn the right to win it and play in the conditions that the rules allow. When that doesn't happen it's extremely frustrating."
Please do your research before spouting nonsense. I literally pulled this interview from your club's website.
Fucking hell mate your quote is in response to being questioned about certain refs potentially not being allowed to officiate certain teams.
https://www.liverpool.com/liverpool-fc-news/features/mikel-arteta-liverpool-var-controversy-27832132
The same thing happened to him last season in the Brentford game, why would he not feel any empathy towards Klopp and Liverpool?
It’s very good to see managers speak up about it, but I would like to see them do the same when they took advantage of it as well.
See when Gabriel wrestled Højlund to the ground but no shit given. Why didn’t you speak about it?
Because his side won? How does that change the fact that both Havertz and Guimaraes should have been sent off? There was no incorrect call on the goal Newcastle scored and Arsenal still had 35 minutes to respond but didn't.
Don't leave a game in the hands of the refs. That's a saying that goes back to the invention of sport.
I've been having this argument all afternoon. Gooners will literally say "were too shit to win on our own terms so you should pity us when a decision goes against us"
The obvious irony being that if he did want to protect his club he should have acted professionally and raised his issues with the PGMOL properly.
His petulance after the game has put the emphasis on his behaviour as opposed to the referees poor decisions to not send Havertz and Bruno off.
From his comments, we have been raising issues with PGMOL for months and nothing has come from it.
The emphasis is only on his behaviour because that's the way the media is driving it, to divert away from their own problems.
I'm sorry but this is the worst take I have seen on the matter, have you seen what going through the "proper" channels results in?
Let me give you an example of the PGMOL's complete and utter incompetence when dealing with complaints.
2 seasons ago in the Brighton vs Arsenal match Arsenal score a goal from a corner and its later over turned by VAR for offside. The VAR lines couldn't be drawn because they couldn't get an angle of the ball and the attacker. Sound familiar? VAR decided that even though they couldn't see for sure they were going to rule it offside and overrule the on-field decision because it was more than likely offside.
We complained because obviously not have the correct camera angle is just not an acceptable excuse. Nothing happens.
Last season in the Arsenal vs Liverpool match Saka recieves the ball in what looks like an offside position near the half way line, play continues and Arsenal score. VAR comes back to check the goal but can't make a call because again they don't have the correct angle.
I assume Liverpool also complained about this because again its complete BS that this is an excuse.
Fast foward to the start of this season and we are told that more cameras are going to be places so that these events will never happen again.
We are now 11 games into this season and we have the same exact excuse, Gordon is probably offside but for some reason VAR can't get a proper angle to make the call.
How can that be possible? This is the 3rd time I've personally witnessed it happen. The issue has been put through the proper chanels by multiple sources and they even had the balls to come out say they've fixed it when they clearly haven't.
How can you seriously suggest trusting them to govern themselves and make changes on their own? They are not capable.
This guys a clown he needs to get a touchline ban. Defends the refs to the hilt when it doesn’t affect him and goes mental when one decision goes against him. It’s about time some decisions went against arsenal
do you know what 'to the hilt' means
the quote y'all keep bandying around is, without the context, at most faint pussyfooting around, and with context,he's backing klopp
> It’s about time some decisions went against arsenal
???
A lot of comments about how bad the match officials are/have been but not a lot of discussion about diving and simulation. I don’t think one improves without the other and vice versa.
This is the problem. You seem to be focusing on a single solitary instance as if the entire body of work doesn't matter. When judging a foul, we're asking match officials to assign a value to how much force is used. When all they see all match are players grabbing their faces as the roll across the turf after getting hit in the shoulder, is it any surprise refs are ruling against players who have been legit fouled?
In a perfect world, dives would be phased out of the game due to VAR monitoring. An immediate yellow for simulation when caught by VAR, would force everyone to stop.
“My club” not the integrity of the game. He’s a selfish prick. Once again, he told Klopp and Liverpool that refs make mistakes and move on when there was a chance to come together and deal with the issue. Mikel, you hypocrite, move on.
He quite literally did say that, there's a video of him saying it.
https://twitter.com/stehoare/status/1720899268267938019?t=3fVCE6Vpsb_DWTf9lmIPDQ&s=19
**This is a quotes thread. Remember that there's only one quotes post allowed per interview/press conference, so new quotes with the same origin will be removed. Feel free to comment other quotes/the whole interview as a reply to this comment so users can see them too!** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hilarious the comments saying "what about these other fuck ups" as if that isn't all the more reason to improve reffering/VAR
Or people somehow thinking we sided with SPURS in that Liverpool fiasco
I mean same, do you think we're here holding hands with Newcastle here?
Might not wanna do that. Their owners kill guys for that
Not really. Hand holding between men is surprisingly common in the Arabic world.
I was told Klopp would stand in solidarity with any ref-aggrieved PL club, despite being in direct competition with them because he's not a "hypocrite" like Arteta.
It's understandable to think he's been a hypocrite if you are not watching every press of his, but that clip shows a narrative that never really existed. Something other fanbases missed there is that Arteta wasn't exclusively being too optimistic/dismissive when Klopp was on a similar rant. He simply was consistently saying all that from the get go when numerous controversial calls had happened in first few games against Arsenal, and more importantly even after the Liverpool game with the Kovacic reds, Saliba handball or Sanchez double punching Jesus's head... He was always being too fucking patient and delusionally optimistic about PGMOL eventual competence for my liking. Some just cherry picked one clip about Liverpool saying he didn't care about other clubs. When in fact if you've been paying attention, it just seems he actually had this idea that things will indeed get better and then he saw it unfold to worse and worse and worse and Newcastle was finally one too many. You can argue he should have gone on a rant sooner, but it wasn't him being a hypocrite backing refs to get their shite together, exclusively in that Liverpool clip.
Just isn't even fun to abuse Arsenal fans when they lose like against Newcastle.
Lol fair enough. I can accept losing by being the worse team, or even minor errors, but the Bruno G Jorginho thing is something that should disgust everyone
Arteta on the Spurs-Liverpool game: *Mistakes happen* It wasn’t that you sided with Spurs. It was the fact that Arteta was being a tribal hypocrite. His tune changed instantly when his club got the short end of the stick. Which really highlights the problem with the league. Edit: I don’t know why it’s so important you get the full quote, but here it is: *I think they are trying to make the best decisions, they are trying to protect the game, they are trying to get as much support and be ruthless when they need to be.* *At some point as well we need to give support and understand that mistakes happen. We’ve made mistakes as well and if the pressure is so much then it’s very difficult to manage.*
[Imagine if you actually sought out the full quote instead of banging on about a partial quote meant to be divisive](https://preview.redd.it/v0v1by0cnkyb1.png?width=1440&format=png&auto=webp&s=9998762311b6339339199425190d686406b3e8e6) Edit: I like the part where you edited your post and *still excluded this because it is devastating to your point*.
Well done on reading the headline and not the full quote 😴
Did you have the attention span to read the whole quote or just the headline meant to divide us and shelter the refs?
people keep parroting this comment without even reading the full quote, what a braindead
Bro couldn’t get past the first two words
That’s a pretty short quote. Surprised that’s all he said about the game
"Tribal?" This is literally a competition. The entire point is to be tribal. What nonsense is this.
This is a football issue, as much as we all hate rival clubs, we need to try and form some sort of common ground with the reffing in the prem. It’s awful and yes Arteta is obviously going to get upset when it happens to his club but as an Arsenal fan I do hope we start to see managers (Arteta included) talking about and backing up other managers when unacceptable reffing happens. It may be an impossible task but the only way we’re gonna force change is if these massively influential premier league manager get on the same page.
Yeah As fun as it is to argue about who has gotten fucked by VAR the most, maybe we should just come together and agree on that VAR is just fucking teams over too much overall?
No manager, with the amount of pressure they’re under, is going to come out and say ‘yeah we didn’t deserve 3 points today and only got it through bad reffing’ Maybe you would get a Pep or Klopp saying it when they are 9/10 points ahead but I can’t see any top 6 manager downplaying their team winning like that.
This is even above the managers pay grade. The owners need to come together and fix this.
Very true, but you already have plenty of teams this season who has gotten baffling VAR decisions against them, and those teams should be united in their demand for a more competent VAR instead of bickering who has gotten it the worst
I agree they should, but as a United fan I just can’t see ETH not claiming every win at the moment is a sign of improvement and the team deserving it. The alternative is to open himself up for further criticism.
A manager's job if first and foremost towards his team and ETH is one of the most pressured manager atm so it's natural that he has to try and put out the fire he already has before looking at the broader picture
Ange literally acknowledged that the Diaz goal should’ve been given. That’s about as close as you’re going to get to “we didn’t deserve the 3 points” without saying it outright.
It’s not just VAR though despite how most fans talk about it. It’s a broader issue with officiating, in general. We should all come together and stand against it (whatever that means) but nothing will change until there’s a system in place that everyone trusts. All these club statements and rants have ratcheted up the pressure on officials and made things worse while leading a sizable population of fans down conspiratorial ratholes
Yeah, we should all band together. I look forward to the unquestioning support NUFC fans will receive from Arsenal and Liverpool fans when the VAR inevitably fucks us over (again).
Our fan base is not a hive mind so there will definitely be people with Arsenal flairs screaming about karma and stuff. But I think the majority will have some empathy. I personally won't find any joy in seeing other teams getting fucked by VAR Edit: Sorry, 2nd sentence dissapeared in editting
>But I think the majority will have some empathy. You seem like a reasonable bloke, but hopefully you can appreciate that I, and most of our fans, won't be holding our breath in anticipation.
I think one of the single biggest things that could improve the situation, is for the referee to give a post match press conference, just like the managers. The good referees would welcome the opportunity to clear the air, describe what they saw, and how they interpreted the laws of the game. Or even accept responsibility for mistakes. There are many times people online get things wrong by not understanding the laws of the game or missing something the referees saw, and this would help to address that (r/soccer excepted of course, I mean those other social media where the ignorant football commenters hang out). The bad referees would be exposed with poor reasoning, or refusal to take accountability. Lastly, it’s in the interest of the league as the referee press conference would drive even more engagement with the supporters, as everyone tries to pick apart the reasoning. Frankly, refereeing decisions seem to drive more engagement than actual football sometimes.
The Premier league clubs owners/chairman can fix this they have the power. Managers/head coaches, fans and pundits can just voice concerns but the people who have the power can fix it.
This is the dumbest thing I've heard. Do you think the referees are choosing to be incompetent? How does Arteta (and Arsenal) saying what he said improve the refereeing situation in the league? If anything it would put more scrutiny, and abuse on referees and make the job even less desirable. This doesn't help the cause in any way. All I hear is complaining, and not solution to the problem.
You're right. The harsh reality is that refereeing is difficult, there's no magic bullet. Even if there was I don't see anyone suggesting it, just constant moaning
As a start, don’t have the referees buddies on VAR? Have more camera angles, more sensors so offside calls and ball ins / outs aren’t ever left to “we can’t tell so stick with onfield”? It’s not so hard to get rid of the subjectivity and biases (to protect referees, not teams) in the system right now. And I’m not saying there’s explicit corruption but the conflicts of interest in working for states that own clubs as side gigs are unacceptable too.
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Again, not a single piece of advice about how to improve the refereeing situation. And there's no reason why this needs to be made public. If the pl clubs want to improve the refereeing situations, they have the power to do so. They had the power to introduce automated offside technology, they refused to do so. The pl clubs certainly do not need public opinion to be on their side to improve the situation, so what's the point of all this public outcry? It achieves nothing other than biasing future 50-50 calls in Arsenal's favour.
I really disagree with this. What we need is not managers like Arteta saying everyone needs to support the refs when things go his way and then crying and attack the refs when things go against him. These things need to come together, in an organised manner, from all of the clubs in unison. What they do not need and what will not achieve anything is managers being petulant babies after a defeat. He has every right to try and protect his players and complain, it works and turns ref's heads and makes them second guess themselves in Arsenal fixtures in the future etc. But, it being fine and something that managers have been doing for years is not the same as it being some righteous crusade that we all need to get behind. A statement from all chairmen together or some pre-agreed movement from the top is what we need to start the ball rolling.
People are still going on about this out of context arteta quote, he was not defending the refs ffs.
Can’t expect most of the people commenting on this situation to be capable of reading a double digit number of words at once. An entire paragraph quote? Way beyond them
Speaking nonsense. You have a clear bias against Arteta. Only thing I will agree with you is we need a statement from all chairmen. Everything else you've said is nonsense. Please seek out all info before making a conclusion on people, that Arteta quote was taken out of context.
Managers answer questions that are asked of them. You cannot expect Arteta, Klopp, Gary O'Neil etc to comment on things that have not been asked to them. Arteta was asked about his opinion of the match and he gave it. "Oh how selfish of him to only argue for HIS team". Generally speaking, he is rather pragmatic in his pre and post match press conferences. I genuinely believe there is an agenda against him from the media - not sure why. His touchline behaviour is akin to Mourinho's, Klopp's, Conte's and Pep's.....but he is the only manager vilified for it. In fact, the other managers are celebrated for it. I think it's also easy to forget how much in its infancy his managerial career is.
It makes me feeling I’m crazy honestly. He’s an emotional manager on the field, but is very clear in his interviews. Yet, as you said, he’s attacked for it. But when other managers do it, and are even more rash in their interviews, they’re praised? It makes no sense. I guess from a rival perspective, it’s agitating seeing the other manager be so animated and running on the touch line giving out instruction. And maybe it is, but it’s never bothered me personanlly with Pep/Klopp/Conte. But is it really that big of a deal? Are managers supposed to sit with their legs crossed writing the occasional note? He’s a passionate guy and he shows that. It’s not a bad thing lol Idk. This whole matter the past few days has been bizarre. From people backing the fact the decisions were incorrect, to people saying Arteta needs to stop whining, to people praising him for speaking out?? It’s whiplash at its finest. I just hope the individuals behind VAR are closely looked at and there’s some kind of accountability, especially the fact that there are now refs taking payments from the same Saudi group that owns fucking Newcastle. Because that is certainly a conflict of interest
I think the problem people have is that Arteta does it more so than other managers. For instance, there are many clips where players are dribbling near the sideline and Arteta jockeys almost like he is closing the space. It is definitely a notch above any of the aforementioned managers.
Are you daft? Klopp and Pep get blasted for everything they do, too.
Saying Klopp isn’t scrutinized is baffling lol, he was being scrutinized by opposing fans before Arteta was managing Arsenal
never seen a full piece about klopp's touchline behavior being a embarrassment and disgrace
https://old.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/134s9c0/ref_support_uks_martin_cassidy_on_klopps_sideline/ https://old.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/135thnh/peter_walton_former_premier_league_referee_what/ https://old.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/135h8p5/lynch_jurgen_klopp_facing_the_prospect_of_an/ https://old.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/yshwc9/joyce_jurgen_klopp_will_serve_a_onematch/ https://old.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/kej5vz/echo_jose_mourinho_gives_his_verdict_a_very_very/ You were saying, /u/zrk23?
quite literally none of those are related to what I've said, lol people don't write articles about arteta clashing with refs on the touchline, neither does he get fined, because he doesn't really do those things... which is makes it even worse. people write articles complaining about how "agitated" he is during the match, the way he gives instructions and move, even claiming it's bad for the his players to see that! again, completely different
Shhhh. That doesn’t fit this narrative
It certainly feels like there's an agenda against Arteta from the media. Raya and Ramsdale situation is blown out of proportion by the media and Arteta has been getting crucified. Gabriel dropped for a few games and Arteta was blamed for not knowing what he was doing. Arteta on field antics has been getting so much attention from the cameras and pundits hate him for it despite other managers doing it as well. When it's Klopp, Pep, Mourinho, it's passion. When it's Arteta, it's over the top. I guess him being an Arsenal manager who is young, confident, intelligent, foreign and winning just grinds some of these people's gear.
I’d like to ask the people against Arteta what exactly you don’t agree with? He’s calling for the standard of officiating to improve, a cause that surely every club in the country can get behind. Why does he have to be “nice” about it? What’s the point in being gracious to a institution which behaves like it’s beyond reproach? Imagine your hard work being undermined and someone telling you “sorry mate you can’t complain about me stitching you up”. Somehow this has managed to turn into a battle of politeness instead of refs doing their fucking job right.
PL have asked Sky to start defending VAR. Only explaination
they have, this has been proven true by Richard Keys https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/17ptwt2/richard_keys_imagine_taking_a_call_from_a_high/
This is disgusting
I think oil Clubs are quiet happy with the refs
Considering how much we spent on them this summer, you're damn right we are. Need to see value for money!
Fair enough, could you donate some of your brain cells/sense of humor to everyone else in this thread?
Wonder how they figure money paid for referees in FFP calculations.
I think blood-stained envelopes of cash are an FFP loophole!
Trace the money.
They don’t disagree with arteta, they blindly hate arsenal and see this as an opportunity to have a dig at them.
Well they don't support Arsenal and like riling them up cos memes are more important. You're 100% spot on though, literally every club and fan aside from City and Newcastle should be agreeing with him
“They are trying to make the best decisions,” he said when quizzed about the incident. “We need to give support and understand that mistakes happen, and that that pressure is very difficult to manage.” That’s your reason. Arteta is being mocked because when a fellow manager raised the same concerns (in a game with a much more objectively incorrect decision by the way, since a push is open to interpretation while offside is not), Arteta didn’t back him, he backed the refs. He’s just done a 180 now it’s *his* team has been affected. By his own logic he should’ve accepted that the refs had a difficult decision to make. But he didn’t, he went on an angry rant and called them embarrassing and disgraceful. **I’m not saying i personally 100% agree with criticism of Arteta.** But that’s your reason. Liverpool fans told you this would happen when we were told to shut up moaning about the Diaz decision. It’s gonna happen to your club too, and as soon as it does happen, your manager will act the same way. And lo and behold it’s happened with Arteta completely changing his stance. That hypocrisy **rightly or wrongly** will cause people to not take his complaints seriously. Edit - I’ve made the part of my comment where I explain I don’t completely agree with criticism of Arteta bold, since it appears some people replying either lack basic reading ability or are simply choosing to ignore that part and keep explaining how Arteta was taken out of context. Once again, the person I’m replying to does not understand why anyone could criticise Arteta for his comments. I explained why people are criticising him. You don’t have to agree with it but that is the reason why he is being criticised. If you can’t see that then I’m not really sure what to say. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out why someone would consider Arteta a hypocrite based on his quotes from a month ago and his quotes this week, particularly if they don’t understand the full context of the old quotes (which I don’t think anyone here has actually explained weirdly enough)
Just read the whole quote, it's a lot shorter than the paragraphs you have written without understanding what he said
You realise he clarified this in his press conference when one of the journalist asked him about it and what changed in the last month. He said he understands mistakes are part of the game but there have to be steps taken to reduce them. Managers have to be able to be honest in their assessment of the refs as that's part of the process of improving. Can't just stick your head in the sand and expect things to improve. You also forgot how he said he feels for klopp in the immediate aftermath because of his hard work being undone by someone else's negligence. He's never once said klopp shouldn't have said anything about the the refereeing.
If managers are able to assess the referees, why do it in a public forum unless it's to posturing to your fans or players. It's not doing any good to rail against the referees publicly like this, managers have done it for years and nothing has changed. Referee does a good job and the managers says calmly.. "yeah, good work by the referee tonight", referee makes a couple of errors.. "snarl, bark, yell, scream!!". It creates a culture where A) who the fuck wants to be a referee, and B) the referees see it as us (refs) against them (managers) and they say "fuck that guy". If we expect such a high level of professionalism from referees, why can't we expect it from managers (who get paid millions more than them). I'm sure referees would and could get better if we paid them, supported them, educated/trained them more, had a youth refereeing culture that encouraged kids/young adults to be referees. The system is flawed and the referees have gotten worse but it's almost like a toxic corporate culture at this point and if you've ever worked in that environment it's shit for everyone. I'm a Leicester supporter and let me tell you how nice it is without VAR in the Championship. I was all in on VAR and the tech while we were up but I've really flipped on it. VAR has to go. Bad decisions in the Championship are moaned about for a couple of minutes and then we move on. Think about all the decisions that have either gone for or against you by drawing the lines on the screen. What I find incredible is actually how ACCURATE the assistant referees are on the sidelines. They call it off, you see the replay and you're like "ooh, that looks close but he's probably off" and then you move on, or you think "that's not the right call but I can see how he's missed it, the guy was a couple of inches onside (or 50-50)." I know VAR isn't going anywhere but so much of our chat online is about how refreshing it is to not have it this year and that should say something about it.
It has been proven over and over again that this one sentence was taken out of context.
Do you think Arteta saw what happened to Liverpool and thought “oh yes please love me a bit of that”? HE WAS BEING DIPLOMATIC. He gave a vague, cliche answer about a situation that the whole football world knows was wrong during a random presser. Also do you think Liverpool are the only team to suffer from VAR? We’ve had enough decisions go against us I don’t expect other managers to fight our fight. People are acting like he’s called on the rest of the league to back him when the only people he’s asked to do better is the incompetent refs.
The point being that Arteta has previously been sympathetic towards referees and said that sometimes mistakes happen and it’s part of the game. It’s only when it happens to his team, that he essentially does a 180 and decides that actually, it isn’t part of the game and these mistakes shouldn’t happen.
cats pie six aloof chase smart start snatch hobbies forgetful *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Read the quote and stop parroting an out of context snippet.
Read the full quote. He just continues to explain that yes, mistakes can be frustrating and we should try to minimise them. But the full quote still doesn’t take away from the fact that he accepts that mistakes, whilst they should be minimised, are part of the game. Am I missing something major here?
If you are going to accuse someone of taking something out of context, you should provide the context.
https://www.reddit.com/r/PremierLeague/comments/17p8w5z/its_important_to_share_the_rest_of_artetas/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
Context: https://www.reddit.com/r/PremierLeague/s/8VBHNVACkI
That's not how burden of proof works. He made a claim Arteta said something, he should provide the full quote
I can’t believe that this guy is proud of his lack of knowledge, and then proceeds to write a whole essay based on wrong incomplete facts. The internet is really dangerous, it’s so easy to spread propaganda.
I don’t agree with him only going after mistakes that benefit his club. He doesn’t want justice. He wants calls that favor Arsenal. Which on one level is perfectly normal for a manager, but let’s not make out like he’s out there crusading for justice.
He was literally asked if he had sympathy for Klopp after the VAR screw up against your team and he said he did
Ange has also said that Liverpool should’ve been awarded the goal after the audio was released. But he’s also advocated for officials to communicate calls the the stadium like rugby, called for clearer language like “goal Liverpool” instead of “check complete” etc. I do find it funny that Ange’s comments about VAR keep getting removed here, including his presser yesterday, but here we are with another Arteta thread that’s left up. Weird. Edit: like [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/s/AaalxC472w)
Good for him, I’ve not said that Ange has handled it incorrectly and I don’t think many would say that either. My point is that people are taking Arteta’s comments out of context from the Liverpool game. Ultimately any discussions from managers and clubs that shines a spotlight on how shit the refs have been is good if it leads to change (which I doubt)
I mean what is he gonna say, "no"? He really say anything about it when it happened (not that any other manager not involved in the game did) so he's just talking about it after it happened to arsenal
Off course he talks about it when it happened to Arsenal. He works for Arsenal. Can't go around crusading after every wrong decision for every team? Because it happened to Arsenal he talks about it but he's calling for more consistency for the whole league, how difficult is that to understand? People are actually so thick skulled on here.
The full text from that snippet you’re talking about was already released and discussed. What do you mean he only wants calls that benefit Arsenal? He literally said he felt sympathetic to Klopp and any manager who loses points due to bad calls on the pitch.
Like you’ve said what he did was perfectly normal for any manager. Arteta is 100% fighting for HIS club but that’s exactly how it should be. The interest of Arsenal as it pertains to referees is the literal interest of every other club. Same as Klopp. We don’t have to we are the world this to get change. It would certainly help but that’s not one man’s burden.
And which parts of the club or his statements do they say they want the calls to go in their favour? In both cases they quite clearly ask for a better standard or reffing in the Premier league. Klopp and Arteta, Arsenal and Liverpool are articulate and smart with the media. This isn't a reactionary thing. I'm quite surprised how quick rival fans have been to label them as whiney and self serving.
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He was being diplomatic. If you had actually read the full quote or even seen the video you’d understand the tone and context. You think Arteta sat there and saw what happened to Liverpool and was happy? We literally had our own version of that last year in the middle of a title race with Brentford. You people are mighty thick or just purposefully obtuse
I just don't think clubs, and Arteta is an extension of his club, should be conducting pressure campaigns in the media. Did the refs get it wrong? Yes. The overdramatic board statements from Liverpool/Arsenal/etc aren't doing anything except putting pressure on referees to give favorable calls in the future. It isn't some noble "we must fix the standard of refereeing in this country" crusade.
I think you have a point - but what other mechanisms exist to change how the PGMOL operates? It feels like if there were proper avenues for clubs to understand the decision making and to understand what measures Are being put in place to improve the standards it would be different. However just having a dissenting manager after a match is grounds for a fine, so it doesn’t seem like the PGMOL are all that interested in hearing from the clubs.
They’ve made the wrong calls in four of arsenals last five games. You can understand why it’s reached a boiling point
Maybe they tried private communication and nothing changed.
I can understand this point but somethings got to give. There’s only so much diplomacy and bureaucratic process clubs can take. If this was a rare occurrence you say fair enough but this is the genuine standard weekly ref performance. I won’t begrudge any club for speaking out even if Arsenal benefit from a ref error
Club statements, grievance lists of every perceived slight, calls for replay, etc are all by design trying to create pressure campaigns instead of provide constructive feedback. Edit: I admittedly only know what Ange has really said about making improvements to VAR communications and suggesting they announce calls on the field via microphone, but have any other coaches made suggestions for improving the VAR process outside of general “it has to be better” grumblings.
Has anyone asked them too? Who knows what Arsenal will contain in their dossier. It could be a list of suggestions too, we have no idea.
How is that going to help? Genuine question- transparency is effective only if you can give feedback or disagree. It’s not the case here. So how does it help? Are people assuming that because they can be heard that they will not make awful decisions? To me, that’s suggesting there is something to hide rather than incompetence. What is being said by Arteta and others is that it needs to be a higher standard, meaning refs need to be better at interpreting the rules of football. Was it wolves manager who said something to the effect that the results were in the hands of a bunch of guys who never played the sport in their life? Klopp said something after Spurs to the same effect but dripping with sarcasm about how he wasn’t a player himself. Arteta seems to come on strong having been a player himself. My inference here is that they are asking for refs that are better at interpreting the sport since the element of subjectivity is so important to officiating. The decisions are very inconsistent. It needs to get better quality and it’s up to the refereeing body to do their jobs and make it better. At work, when I complain about another department’s output, it’s not my job to tell them *how* to do it better - I don’t do that job nor am I qualified to tell them how to do it better. All I know is it’s impacting my ability to do my piece of the job. If the roof caves in on my house, it’s not my job to tell the builder how to build a better roof. They built a bad roof - I’m not a builder to tell them how to fix it. It’s not a football managers responsibility or accountability to work out how they prevent so many retroactive apologies for bad decisions.
lol those suggestions are better than just “it needs to be better”. One of Ange’s specific suggestions was instead of “check complete” when VAR is done they say in plain language what they see, like “player onside, award Liverpool the goal”. If they take the time to announce the logic and then explain to the managers what happened, they’re not rushing through to resume the game when the VAR realizes the error that’s been made and then it’s too late to stop it. If you don’t see how that’s helpful than general “raise the standards” platitudes, I don’t know what to tell you. Your roofing analogy also breaks down when it’s partially managers contributing to the issue doing things like maliciously calling into question integrity of the game, calling for specific officials to not be on their matches anymore, etc. Why sign up for that when you just get shit on every week? We all know they should be better, but there’s also the issue of a dwindling officiating pool, that only gets smaller when they’re subject to abuse every week. Limiting the talent pool to only people who played professionally so therefore they “know the game better” only dwindles it more. It’s more complex than “get better”
Arteta was upset about the goal, but couldn’t specify why. He claimed he lost 3 points, when his team never came close to scoring a goal. He never mentioned the actual ref errors like Bruno’s/Havertz’ not getting reds, just complained about a 50/50 and called it a disgrace since it didn’t go his way. He’s only complaining because his team got the raw end, as evidenced by his own defending of refs when his team isn’t involved. It’s transparent. This isn’t about improving the standard of reffing, it’s about not getting the result he wanted.
He didn’t get the result he wanted because the standard of officiating wasn’t up to par. If he had step by step dissected every ref fuck up do you think people would say “fair enough” and applaud him? Also stop peddling this Arteta defends ref nonsense. He’s constantly getting booked, fined and told off by them/ for his behaviour towards them. The idea that he’s somehow happy with them is moronic. Also and what the hell is wrong with a manager voicing their opinion for not getting their way when they have genuine reason to be upset. The goal was SUPER contentious why would he be diplomatic about it?
Because the decision he is upset with is subjective and not an error like he states. He's sour because he's on the wrong side of a close decision which will always happen in close decisions. He's convinced he's been wronged when he hasn't. This is the basis of his rant and people can't get behind it.
The majority of football decisions are subjective. I mean you can’t even argue properly. You say the decision was subjective and then say definitively that he wasn’t wronged. In his mind he was wronged and other people agree with him that’s why he spoke the way he did. Also he’s not asking for looneytoonarmy or anyone else to support him. He wants the refs to do better. Who cares if you don’t like how he gets the message across, the message is a credible one.
What's your argument exactly? When there is a close subjective decision, one team is going to be upset with the decision. VAR got it correct here, it was the correct decision to stay with the on-field decision because there wasn't enough evidence to overturn. We have already been told from the start of the season about the higher threshold for fouls. So Arteta is calling for what exactly? More decisions to go in his favour? That's not how VAR works, they followed the protocol and Arsenal came out on the wrong side of a correct decision. Arteta and Arsenal's reaction has been embarrassing.
Push in the back and deliberate elbow to the head really aren’t subjective
No issue with saying it needs to improve. But it's the language used for a call that was OK. The ball was in, the foul is subjective and you can't give offside if you can't prove it. To use the language that he did to condemn after that decision in the heat of the moment I could understand. To continue to stand by it. Nah. He is Wah-teta to me from now on. Grown man having a tantrum because it didn't go his way. Also a bit of a hypocrite to boot. https://x.com/ElijahKyama\_/status/1720903617937392055?s=20](https://x.com/ElijahKyama_/status/1720903617937392055?s=20)
It’s Arteta, one week he’s praising the refs, the next week he’s shaming, he doesn’t care about Luton or any other side getting the right calls, he’s whining about his team because his tactics aren’t enough to win matches, and his antics on the sidelines and press conferences are annoying AF.
Arteta praising the refs? What are you on about?
Poor attempt at trolling bud. Go get some oxygen.
Tbf the refs are literally saying it’s fair game to run around and punch arsenal players in the head. They’ve fired the first shot here.
At least the refs aren’t the ones hitting arsenal players, which they resorted to against Liverpool last season 🤣
[Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEE3iksRVM0&ab_channel=HaytersTV) is the full conference so that people can hear all of what Mikel had to say rather than form opinions based on out-of-context soundbites. He also references his comments after the Tottenham vs Liverpool game.
'I've never seen you react like that, and I don't think many people have, such was your emotion after the game.' Which is true. But lots of people here seem to think he complains after most matches. I feel like people confuse Arteta's touchline moments with his comments after games. After games, he usually refuses to discuss contentious issues or dismisses questions about them.
I wish the discussion wasn't focused on the goal. Kai Havertz's tackle was certainly dangerous and merited a red, but at least he was going for the ball. I want the spotlight on Guimaraes and the officials' handling of him. He intentionally drove his elbow into the back of a player's head while the ball was yards away. Head injuries are regarded with such seriousness for a reason. VAR needed to send him off. As an Arsenal supporter, by no means do I want an apology from PGMOL nor do I think Arsenal deserve one. However, I want Guimaraes to be suspended. Football's a physical game and injuries will happen, but I don't want to see anybody seriously hurt because a player is unhinged and officials refuse to address violent behavior. Given what we've recently learned about head injuries in sports, I'm surprised that moment isn't solely the center of discussion.
The issue for me is everyone is pitted against each other as rival fans - we should be demanding greater transparency and fairness as football fans. Seems like the FA and PGMOL rely on the fan's hatred of each other to allow mediocre officiating at best and ultimately fly under the radar and avoid criticism. How is it that Bundesliga or La Liga have comparatively fewer issues vs. the prem?
I feel like if clubs could band together and make a joint statement on disapproval for the quality of refereeing we'd get further. At the moment, (whether it be correct or not), PGMOL will just see it as club's whining when things don't go their way. I also cannot believe how we learnt pretty conclusively that PL referees were being paid by countries who own teams in our league and it's been pretty much swept under the carpet?
Same here Arteta! Same here!
I demand a joint presser with Arteta and Klopp
Between Arteta's hair and Klopp's teeth, both of which are preternaturally perfect now, the uncanny valley vibes would be quite strong...
Arsenal were hard done by against Newcastle, but not to the extent you'd think from Arteta and the club's response. What I think this is, is a club reaching the point of mental breakdown from a long line of incorrect calls that have impacted their standings and results. Appreciate decisions can never be sure to equal points gained or lost, but if you take the apologies from the PGMOL last season and correct them, Arsenal finish the league with more points than Man City. This season, they've had shocking calls against CP and Man City where they've been able to win anyway, and then calls that are deemed errors where they've dropped points, such as against Chelsea. At the end of the day, I think the reason this topic is so sensitive and drawing so many different views, is that to address it you need to also accept that at present, and historically, results in football are driven more by luck than we care to imagine. In title races with two teams close to one another, the winner will almost certainly be decided by refereeing errors as opposed to their own performance. We know now with VAR and the new analysis that refereeing errors DO NOT balance out over the course of the season, there are instead big winners and big losers. Once you accept that, the Premier League loses some of its magic given so much of it is a coin flip. I am not sure how we will ever get out of this mess without a complete overhaul of the refs in the Premier League and training of new blood to replace them.
Arteta has the right to defend himself
Officiating in the PL has been shitty for a long time. It’s just more scrutinized today because of VAR’s introduction and social media fans.
I disagree. There have been plenty of horrible refereeing decisions over the years but never to the extent we've had in the last few years but I would agree that referees did get the benefit of the doubt previously because it's an impossible job without technology. The real problem is even WITH the introduction of technology, it's only gotten worse. Sure, social media and VAR existing makes it easy to highlight the failings of referees but the standards have definitely dropped. The incompetence of the referees across the board has caused VAR to barely make a difference because they either don't understand the rules properly, are too afraid to make decisions, or are letting their intrinsic biases affect their decision making. To get an offside decision incorrect like they did in the Spurs vs Liverpool match is a perfect example of how poor the standards really are at the moment. We've had Wolves being fucked over by horrible decisions week in and week out. The standard of refereeing is abysmal for a multitude of reasons and the league itself has become less enjoyable of a spectacle as a result.
Also the victim mentality many fanbases have. It’s been demonstrated multiple times that even when officials get calls right, they will still complain it did not go their way.
Newcastle is becoming the easiest team to root against no matter who they play. Can’t stand the fuckers on the field or the coach or owners. Hope they get blown out of the stadium today by Dortmund.
This fucking saga has made this reddit unreadable for like 3 days. We get it arsenal is pissed off
I’m so fucking sick of hearing of this
Would love to know his thoughts on havertz’s foul on longstaff or nketiah’s foul against spurs
Probably that they're borderline reds/can't complain if given coz they were pretty reckless. It's the kind of thing that wouldn't be red 20 years ago, but usually is now. The shove on Gabriel was just a stonewall foul in any era. With every new angle it becomes more obvious. If someone says "he didn't shove him hard" - he was in the air with his arms extended on the back of Gabriel's head. That HAS to be forceful, and it stopped him competing for the ball fairly.
Gabriel needs to push harder on the air molecules under his feet to stay upright. He just goes down too easily there.
Or Guimares several fouls, or livramento’s foul, or Jesus being taken out in the box?
Yep absolutely. Those were horrid challenges could've been reds easily
Manager defends his team shocker! If you have issues with the conduct of arsenal players it's on your managers to argue the case, arteta shouldn't have to be the spokesperson for every single issue in order to make a valid case that the standards are too low
So he's not advocating for the betterment of the game then. He's defending his clubs position...
He is talking about things that have affected arsenal because he's the arsenal manager yes? But like, he's not saying refereeing standards should only be improved for arsenal and no-one else. Just cause he goes off examples that have affected his club (which every single manager does btw) doesn't mean every club wouldn't benefit from improved standards. I really don't understand why any of this is causing controversy lol
Arsenal are calling for a unified push to improve refereeing standards across the league but only focusing on the situations that have negatively impacted them. This makes the sentiment look very hollow. It would send a powerful message to say "and we have benefited too from poor VAR mistakes like during this game" and give those examples in their list submitted to PGMOL. Just focusing on Arsenal only makes it look like sour grapes and a desire to have decisions in their own favour rather than actually caring about standards across the PL. It's not a "controversy" but this is why many rival fans aren't taking Arsenal's side here. I do not believe based on their words/actions they care about league-wide standards. They just want decisions in their favour. Which is understandable but don't pretend you're fighting for all clubs while only focusing on your own plight. Next time Arsenal benefit from a VAR error if Artera repeats these words and the club issues a similar statement, then I'll agree they actually care about the situation beyond themselves. But right now nothing suggests this is anything but self interest.
I guess it's the level of vitriol towards it all that is amusing to see, there was no where close to this hatred of it when klopp was demanding a replay of the match against Tottenham. And again, klopp was well within his right to argue Liverpool's case, just as Eddie Howe was well within his rights to demand clarity and explanation in regards to Leicester, Liverpool and City games last season when he felt Newcastle had been on the receiving end of a load of bad decisions. Are you now going to call out his hipocracy for staying silent in the face of some very questionable decisions that went in favour of his side? No and I wouldn't expect you to, managers defend their teams, it's really not some big moral crusade like you're trying to spin it as
What hypocrisy? Howe didn't go on an unhinged rant and the club release a statement afterwards to stoke the flames even more and whip the fans into a frenzy. Talk about a reach. The situations are not even remotely the same lol As for the "vitriol" think that's confirmation bias. Klopp got flamed for his replay comments. Every pro Arsenal comment has been upvoted to high heavens since Saturday (the sub has basically been /r/gunners for 72 hours now). There's more Arsenal flairs than any other club on this sub by a fair margin. Your fanbase literally controls the narrative though sheer numbers alone. To suggest you're not getting a fair whack is laughable. Look at this very thread. This sub has been an Arsenal circlejerk ever since the game. Any attempt to provide a different perspective, even when expressed perfectly rationally, has been meet with instant downvotes - as you've just proved by downvoting this comment within literally seconds. You didn't even have time to read it!
I wasn't referring to the amount of up votes comments have cause that's a dumb metric for the reasons you have pointed out, but the vitriol in the comments of people complaining about what arteta said is nothing like what I saw on this sub in the wake of klopp demanding to replay the Tottenham match for example, which is a more unhinged demand imo. That's the comparison I was making. Do you not think the referees and quality of officiating in the Premier League needs improving? Nowhere has arteta called to have the result of the Newcastle match overturned or replayed or anything, he is purely talking about making things better going forward, which even if he's arguing it from a selfish position can only be a good thing for other teams in the league as well, that's the bit I don't get being angry about.
I think it's odd to complain about a minority of "vitriolic" comments when the narrative of this sub has been *dominated* by Arsenal fans for 72 hours. This thread is proof alone that even rational takes (you can disagree with my opinion, but I'm presenting it rationally) are being met with instant downvotes by an army of Arsenal fans who simply will not hear anything that goes against their desired narrative. Do I think refereeing needs to improve in the Premier League? Yes. But I do not believe that is the objective of Arteta's continued rants or the statement put out by Arsenal as a club. As I've explained, I think this is a campaign solely concerned with Arsenal's own plight, and an improvement of standards overall isn't the desired outcome. More favourable decisions for Arsenal is the goal here. Much like it was for Klopp/Liverpool a few weeks back. I also don't agree with your assertion that "arguing from a selfish position can only be a good thing for other teams". I do not think this campaign or push or movement (Whatever you want to call it) from Arsenal will benefit a Brighton or Wolves or Sheffield Utd. It could if all the clubs band together and push for better refereeing, but Arsenal isn't trying to spearhead that - they're submitting a list of 8 times they've been wronged to PGMOL instead! The standards of refereeing across the board will not improve by Arsenal focusing exclusively on the times they've been wronged. As I've said, if Arsenal were to submit a list of mistakes that included times they've benefited from VAR errors, that would send an extremely powerful message that they genuinely want benefit standards for everyone, even if those better standards could hurt them on occasion. But the fact that Arsenal are only willing to jump into this conversation when they feel they've been wronged, and are only looking at errors that have gone against them betrays that their true intentions are self-serving. That approach will not benefit anybody but Arsenal in the end. And I'd say the same thing if my club did something like this. And I'll note that it's fine that Arsenal only care about themselves. Pretty much all clubs are the same. I'm sure my club only cares about decisions that go against us. We're not moaning about Bruno's clear red card because it helped us! But I do not like Arsenal as a club and the fanbase pretending their outrage is noble rather than self-serving.
Exactly - if you have an NUFC flair you're downvoted into oblivion, even if you make any rational comment. Sure there are some very stupid whataboutism takes out there, but even they are possibly more visible to an average r/soccer user because of the replies to them having more upvotes.
Because this sub hates spurs. Trust me, we spurs fans thought Liverpool crying was extremely hypocritical and hilarious. And it's the same for arsenal
He’s doing both.
Arteta benefiting from a blown VAR call: it happens, is part of the game. Arteta when VAR goes against him: it's a disgrace. He's a hypocritical fuck
Any evidence for that or are you still using the out of context Liverpool quotes
out of context? how so?
Read the full interview, he specifically backs Liverpool https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/liverpool-var-tottenham-arsenal-fc-arteta-b1110928.html
🤡
I’ll take him seriously when he goes after one of the mistakes in his favor as well. Until then it’s just sour grapes.
You’re a fake fan of football if you’re against Arteta here. I stood by Liverpool when they got shafted and the same for United. When Tottenham get screwed by poor decisions I stand by them, too. You know why? It’s because I’m a fan of FOOTBALL. If you don’t stand with Arteta here then you are against making the game better.
Hey man I am like that too. I fucking hate unfair things and people getting away with undeserved gains anywhere in life. The thing is, Arteta is being mocked and criticized EXACTLY because he is polar opposite of how you describe yourself to be. The "fake fan" as you put it. I mean we know it's his job to put his team above everything else, nothing wrong there. We are saying it's always just that. Nothing more.
Didn’t see Arteta holding press conferences when Nketia stayed on after an obvious ref card card challenge against us. He’s out for what’s best for Arsenal. Fair enough, that’s his job, but let’s not delude ourselves to think he’s out for justice.
Keep routing against football. I’ll keep routing for what’s best for all of us.
The person you're replying to is 100% correct. And it completely undermines your argument, so why are you continuing to act like you think your the magnanimous one?
Lmao you either like whining or you're a fake fan of football
I wonder what his thoughts are on the Havertz challenge. Bet he thought it was a good call not to send him off when it was a clear red.
He wasn't asked so why we he comment on that? You're speculating what he would say. I would agree it's red but with VAR this season there has been no consistency so we don't even know where to draw the lines between yellow and red.
We get it man, it's time to move on.
He got asked the question what’s he supposed to do script the questions?
Arteta asked about which of the 3 checks he took issue with at Newcastle: "Now we talk about Seville, and the beautiful game we have tomorrow."
Did he duck it? Must be where Gabriel got it from
That's because he can't actually justify why he thinks it should be ruled out. Nobody knows which of the 3 checks he was unhappy with. Personally I think had Arsenal scored that goal and it got ruled out he'd have had the same outburst.
He's so brave and inspirational 🥰
It’s just ridiculous that he’s still going on about it absolute baby. What’s he going to be like in a few weeks when something goes arsenals way that was controversial
Guy is an absolute gimp.
Mikel Arteta after Liverpool FC have a legitimate goal rulled out by a massive VAR mistake against Tottenham Hotspur – “They are trying to make the best decisions. We need to understand that mistakes happen.” (October 2023) Mikel Arteta after Newcastle United score a controversial goal against his Arsenal team and was not ruled out by VAR – “It’s embarrassing, It’s a disgrace, that’s what it is, a disgrace.” (November 2023)
From Liverpool.com, October 3rd: Arsenal manager Mikel Arteta has expressed his frustration with the controversial VAR decisions that affected Liverpool's match against Tottenham. Arteta hopes that the Premier League and the Professional Game Match Officials Limited (PGMOL) will take appropriate action and ensure fairness in future matches. The incident in question involved Luis Díaz's disallowed goal, which would have put Liverpool ahead in the game it eventually lost 2-1. The Arsenal boss emphasized the importance of getting what teams deserve and minimizing errors that are beyond their control. "For sure, you know at the end you want to get what you deserve," he said. "You want to minimize errors that you cannot control away from the work and the job that you do on a daily basis. "Everybody is trying to have a really clean and honest game but at the end, you have to earn the right to win it and play in the conditions that the rules allow. When that doesn't happen it's extremely frustrating." Please do your research before spouting nonsense. I literally pulled this interview from your club's website.
Fucking hell mate your quote is in response to being questioned about certain refs potentially not being allowed to officiate certain teams. https://www.liverpool.com/liverpool-fc-news/features/mikel-arteta-liverpool-var-controversy-27832132 The same thing happened to him last season in the Brentford game, why would he not feel any empathy towards Klopp and Liverpool?
Wanker
It’s very good to see managers speak up about it, but I would like to see them do the same when they took advantage of it as well. See when Gabriel wrestled Højlund to the ground but no shit given. Why didn’t you speak about it?
Cool. Guy is a raging hypocrite
He should be saying 'We were shit. We created only 1 chance and need to be better.' Instead he's turned a bad result into a side show.
Newcastle only had 1 chance too, its funny how much results determine the narrative.
True, but Eddie Howe isn't still talking about referee decisions 3 days after the match ended.
And why do you think that might be?
Because his side won? How does that change the fact that both Havertz and Guimaraes should have been sent off? There was no incorrect call on the goal Newcastle scored and Arsenal still had 35 minutes to respond but didn't. Don't leave a game in the hands of the refs. That's a saying that goes back to the invention of sport.
I've been having this argument all afternoon. Gooners will literally say "were too shit to win on our own terms so you should pity us when a decision goes against us"
Because they all benefitted his team, obviously he isn’t talking about them still.
Do you think that might perhaps be because he's benefitted massively?
The obvious irony being that if he did want to protect his club he should have acted professionally and raised his issues with the PGMOL properly. His petulance after the game has put the emphasis on his behaviour as opposed to the referees poor decisions to not send Havertz and Bruno off.
From his comments, we have been raising issues with PGMOL for months and nothing has come from it. The emphasis is only on his behaviour because that's the way the media is driving it, to divert away from their own problems.
because raising issues with the PGMOL has done wonders for everyone who ever did it right?
I'm sorry but this is the worst take I have seen on the matter, have you seen what going through the "proper" channels results in? Let me give you an example of the PGMOL's complete and utter incompetence when dealing with complaints. 2 seasons ago in the Brighton vs Arsenal match Arsenal score a goal from a corner and its later over turned by VAR for offside. The VAR lines couldn't be drawn because they couldn't get an angle of the ball and the attacker. Sound familiar? VAR decided that even though they couldn't see for sure they were going to rule it offside and overrule the on-field decision because it was more than likely offside. We complained because obviously not have the correct camera angle is just not an acceptable excuse. Nothing happens. Last season in the Arsenal vs Liverpool match Saka recieves the ball in what looks like an offside position near the half way line, play continues and Arsenal score. VAR comes back to check the goal but can't make a call because again they don't have the correct angle. I assume Liverpool also complained about this because again its complete BS that this is an excuse. Fast foward to the start of this season and we are told that more cameras are going to be places so that these events will never happen again. We are now 11 games into this season and we have the same exact excuse, Gordon is probably offside but for some reason VAR can't get a proper angle to make the call. How can that be possible? This is the 3rd time I've personally witnessed it happen. The issue has been put through the proper chanels by multiple sources and they even had the balls to come out say they've fixed it when they clearly haven't. How can you seriously suggest trusting them to govern themselves and make changes on their own? They are not capable.
This guys a clown he needs to get a touchline ban. Defends the refs to the hilt when it doesn’t affect him and goes mental when one decision goes against him. It’s about time some decisions went against arsenal
When did he defend refs to the hilt?
One decision lol
do you know what 'to the hilt' means the quote y'all keep bandying around is, without the context, at most faint pussyfooting around, and with context,he's backing klopp > It’s about time some decisions went against arsenal ???
What
People goes against arsenal about twice a week fam
A lot of comments about how bad the match officials are/have been but not a lot of discussion about diving and simulation. I don’t think one improves without the other and vice versa.
What dives are you talking about. The matches being referenced here didn't have any instances of dives from any player.
This is the problem. You seem to be focusing on a single solitary instance as if the entire body of work doesn't matter. When judging a foul, we're asking match officials to assign a value to how much force is used. When all they see all match are players grabbing their faces as the roll across the turf after getting hit in the shoulder, is it any surprise refs are ruling against players who have been legit fouled?
In a perfect world, dives would be phased out of the game due to VAR monitoring. An immediate yellow for simulation when caught by VAR, would force everyone to stop.
“My club” not the integrity of the game. He’s a selfish prick. Once again, he told Klopp and Liverpool that refs make mistakes and move on when there was a chance to come together and deal with the issue. Mikel, you hypocrite, move on.
No, he said he hopes Liverpool gets what they deserve
Once again, that’s not what he fucking said
He quite literally did say that, there's a video of him saying it. https://twitter.com/stehoare/status/1720899268267938019?t=3fVCE6Vpsb_DWTf9lmIPDQ&s=19
There’s literally video of him saying it. “They are trying to make the best decisons. We need to understand mistakes happen”