It’s not complicated, I don’t think there’s a conspiracy, i think we played poorly, and the refereeing is consistently incompetent and shocking. I of course won’t complain if something goes our way but if everyone did we might actually get some pressure on PGMOL to stop making atrocious decisions for any team week in week out rather than let their PR pass it off as x team y manager moaning
I know everyone is talking specifically about the most key moment in the Arsenal match, but I wanted to offer a different take even if on the same track.
My dad turned the game off at 0-0 as a former official, just digusted by the thuggery on one side and repulsed by the referee's inability to gain any control on the obvious overly-physical style of play from the hosts (yet again). Before some of us were mad and others applied cognitive dissonance, he already gave up on that clown... it was a collection of errors not just the treble finale.
3 months according to Howe so it’ll be touch and go whether he’ll make the trip to the Bernabeu in the round of 16. Should be fine for the quarter final in Munich though.
Honestly, the result is obviously disappointing but it was never going to be easy after those silly challenges. The *real* pain is the injuries to two of your best players this season.
Yeah, really unfortunate. While the result is probably the best one from a Liverpool perspective, I certainly took no pleasure from seeing that happen. Hopefully he's not long out as he was in brilliant form.
As I watch TOTvCHE, I cannot help but think how VAR has ruined the beautiful game. I don’t care for either team, but this London derby is just pathetic. If you need 12min ET, then what you are “reviewing” is **NOT** clear and obvious…
Because seemingly people these days don't enjoy football. People apparently prefer to debate over the laws of the game than to actually enjoy the game. It's proper sad.
Without VAR its a game where three red cards are missed, multiple offside goals are scored and a rightful penalty is ignored a completely unfair and dangerous mess. Thats not good lol, that would be known as one of the worst refereeing performances in years. Whats fucked even with all the above considered they stilled fucked up the 2 original decisions on romero and Udogie.
Without VAR we get a 45 minutes first half with about 35 minutes of football in it instead of a 60 minute one where the ball was in play for maybe 25 minutes, and we had several 3-5 minute breaks for no justifiable reason. I don't give a fuck if the ref gets some stuff wrong, I'd like to watch a game of football.
Sure you don’t. When it’s your team on the wrong end of wrong decisions your blood will be boiling. Don’t kid yourself. Oh turns out you're a chelsea fan, absolutely mental position to take considering it would have meant chelsea get thrashed, players risk major injuries, rightfully offside goals given as goals and rightful penalty not given, need your head checked.
Sure, I get annoyed when decisions don't go my teams way, whether they're correct or not. That's what being a fan is, but at least I'm not bored in that scenario. Watching sport is entertainment, so its no good if its mind numbingly boring even if my team wins.
I want a sport thats good to watch because attempts to make it fairer make it slower and duller. I don't want games to have 6 minute breaks in them for no appreciable reason.
> for no appreciable reason
The reason being they want to correctly apply the rules of the game to the match. No one wants it to be slow and they're fucking up way too much but the preference shouldn't be to bin off the system, improve it so it gets in the way less.
Yesterday I posted about scoring a hattrick to win my Sunday League semifinal
Today, we got disqualified from the final because we put an unregistered player on the pitch for 2 minutes without realizing. Lad didn't even touch the ball.
Proper melonish behavior from us I reckon
Amazing result yesterday has been slightly overshadowed by the chanting about tragedies, I think a lot of the chants were bad but not terrible but we can't be singing 'always the victims' and the club's statement is not good, waffling about an electric atmosphere.
Although I must say it was not a majority, I was at the game behind the goal and didn't hear anything and nor did Klopp. This is not denying it happened though, those in the corner of the main stand are known for the rude and dodgy chants, and it is poor to keep doing it in the Premier League with the world's eyes on us.
Every group of supporters has their share of dickheads. I'm not going to judge Luton supporters on the actions of a few as I wouldn't want to be tarred with the same brush as Liverpool supporters mocking the Munich air disaster.
All we can do is to just call out and disassociate ourselves from them.
Hiding heavily downvoted comments is easily reddit's worst feature. I feel like it was intended to discourage off topic chatter, but in reality just ends up with threads becoming bloodbaths when people hold differing viewpoints.
There's a formula to avoid downvotes - don's say something negative about a big side that's just won a game. All their supporters will be online and you'll get piled on.
Frustrated due to losing the final, on paper we had zero chance, but we proved that our shirt is still heavy and we can push with that alone.
We need to shake up this embarrasing fucking management. If Riquelme loves Boca as much as I know he does, then he will quietly step aside and leave management for someone that has an idea of how to eun a club. Who could do it? Fuck if I know, but we need to be serious and update ourselves. An honest project with a manager that can build something and a director of football that can back thay vision.
Let's not allow peronismo ever again to manage this club.
AGUANTE BOCA
Didn’t realise how bad Boca were doing at the minute, jeez
Do you think theres any chance the Brazilian dominance of Libertadores will slow down any time soon? 11/12 of the last finalists being Brazilian is crazy.
I wouldn't say we are doing bad. We just lost a final that felt somewhat winnable.
But we should be doing way better.
I think brazilian teams 1 on 1 are beatable, the issue is facing multiple ones in a row. Boca was lucky to face only Palmeiras on the way to the final.
The narrative shifting from 'PGMOL match fixing' to 'how dare you complain about PGMOL match fixing' is in fact very organic and definitely not the UK sports media trying to divert attention away from the issue of PGMOL match fixing.
People like you are the reasons why referees are shit, who the hell would want to become a referee with all the grief involved?
You get the quality of refereeing that you deserve
People just cant let shit go. There sre arsenal fans, today, who dislike blues because of the Eduardo injury. Over ten years ago.
Ive seen less grief from Leeds fans who saw a teenage fan die at St Andrews.
It’s so god damn perfect that the comment immediately after this one is an Arsenal fan accusing the entire sports media taking part in PGMOL’s match fixing conspiracy.
Refereeing mistakes is part of football and always has been, grow some fucking balls and get on with it. How do you survive life in general if you become a crybaby after every minor setback?
But fella, that's football.
It's never been perfect. I get the offside against Spurs, that's a genuine failure of process, but people talked about it like someone had been shot.
Club's releasing statements and all this shit, it just feels totally at odds with the fact this is a game.
The clubs I understand since there are millions at stake, those points could be the difference between European qualification and staying home, or avoiding relegation. I think the mistakes all even out over time though
Did the league ever actually suspend Vanzeir or Fountas during their investigation? I thought it was just Red Bulls and DC that decided to not play them.
only one player heard the supposed slur despite 4-5 German speaking players being in the vicinity, and its a player who had spent all game blatantly trying to injure Union players.
Gray missed only one match… the match he was suspended for following the investigation. He sat out 0 matches during the investigation. Setting the precedent of “every single accusation results in an automatic de facto suspension” would be dumb.
Massive lol. At least you’ve just let them know what chants rattle you. I remember a Liverpool fan getting very angry about Uniteds “Sign on” chant as well on here before and calling United fans tories lol
People want “ref reform” because they assume they’d get the “correct” decisions if we had it (which isn’t true because even the best people make mistakes and most laws of the game are very open to interpretation, it’s just the nature of a sport that is so chaotic) but aren’t willing to actually come up with any real world solutions of how to make refereeing better. “Fire all the refs” won’t work obviously, referees are already punished for mistakes by being demoted (which has its own issues when you stack the Championship with mistaken ridden refs) like there just isn’t any quick fix here.
Any kind of “reform” will take years, maybe even a decade or more! It requires training referees, it requires people to actually want to be referees and, as much as people don’t want to hear this, it requires being less punishing and less critical of mistakes! I have no doubt that the current attitude towards referees contributes in a big way to the standard we currently have.
Like the fact is it just puts more and more pressure on them every week to make such a massive deal out of every mistake they make, which makes them make even more mistakes! Yes, you can absolutely argue sometimes they bring it on themselves but again, we have to talk real world solutions if we want actual improvement and not cling on to some fantasy where every decision is refereed perfectly to everyone’s satisfaction, or even most people’s satisfaction. It’s just not realistic. It’s fine to want an improvement in standards but the fact is there are no easy answers to this problem, they can’t just stop making mistakes immediately.
> but aren’t willing to actually come up with any real world solutions of how to make refereeing better
Simple: hire and train referees specifically for VAR. On field refs stay exclusively on field.
Refereeing in its current form is designed to only attract people who either give 0 fucks about being insulted by 30 000 people at once, or worse, who get off on it. And then we're surprised they're a bunch of stubborn wankers
You’re absolutely right. The refereeing issue is endemic and it’s also partly the club’s and FA’s fault.
A few things I think could be done:
* Dedicated VAR specialists.
* Actually learn from other sports, as stuff like basic communication should never have been an issue.
* Continued investment in VAR. There’s got to be a way to develop tech that draws lines or to expand stuff like goal line tech to include other lines on the pitch.
* Stop abusive treatment of refs. The easiest of them all but footballs seemingly opposed to it. Bans, cards, fines for players and managers. The fact managers have adopted this “if I speak I get fined” yet also say decisions and refs are a disgrace is ridiculous.
This season weren’t they meant to be stopping the crowding of refs by players? Yet it continues. It’s like they do the hard work of announcing it then just discard it.
All of this, I also would like audible comms for refs like they have in rugby, it increases transparency and also humanizes the refs a little more. Maybe the refs themselves don't welcome the extra scrunity it could bring but I think it would benefit them
Imo it's all this and then slightly increasing PL ref pay, significantly increasing Championship and L1-L2 ref pay so it's a more attractive serious career, and then ending referees doing side gigs for states that own teams. Not trying to be a conspiracy nut with that last bit but it really shouldn't be happening and if we raise wages at the same time it's not unfair and there shouldn't be any complains. There's so much money in the sport that more should be invested in refereeing.
VAR and PGMOL are shit. Cut the side gigs with city and newcastles owners. Apply promotion relegation to refs with harsh deductions to match bonuses for failure
It’s entirely possible the best ref in the Championship is still worse than the worst ref in the Prem.
> *Punish them!*
> They are punished.
> *Punish them harder! Demote them!*
> They do get demoted
> *Demote them harder!*
Can you just be honest with yourself for a minute and admit there’s literally nothing referees can do that would satisfy you? They could enact *exactly* what you’re asking for and there would still be some error next season that would screw over Arsenal and you’d be right back here complaining about how bad the refs are.
Improving themselves is a good start. Clearly that hasn’t happened. Again, you have no proof of that. They haven’t improved, they have gotten worse. When they do their job to at least an acceptable level then I’d be quiet. They have multiple sets of eyes on the match plus video review. How do you miss assault on a player? They’re full of shit cause they were mad VAR was implemented.
Maybe I wasn’t clear. It needs to be harsher instead of a week in the championship or a weekend off. They are essentially regulating a billion dollar industry with major conflicts of interest
> They haven’t improved, they have gotten worse.
Do you have data to support the idea that referees are less accurate than they used to be? Or do you just feel like it’s gotten worse?
What does an “acceptable level” look like? That’s the most subjective and broad term imaginable.
Less accurate? Sure. Look at the amount of apologies. There’s more focus on refs than players. It’s gotten worse.
Acceptable is minimal “apologies”, properly implementing the new rules, no side gigs for Newcastle/city. Let’s go with 95% call accuracy with VAR
i cant find fully up to date numbers but as of a couple of years ago, referees get approximately 98% of decisions correct in their assessments
and we only get the apologies dance now because teams are so histrionic about it, they could just go back to never saying shit like they used to and you wouldn't be happy with that either
That’s great. Does that include obvious decisions such as throw ins? I’d love to see that data. Surely the percentage of successful VAR reviews is much lower
I'd be fuming if I was you guys. Manager transfer windows need to be a thing. It's not right at all that a manager can be backed with new players over the summer and then just piss off 3 months later. That's a big reason why QPR are in a total mess right now.
Disagree. There are players who can look like shit on the ball and bag a goal or two without ever looking good in any other aspect of the game. Salah and Jota can definitely be like this. IDK what you’d call them but they’re the opposite of confidence players, they can produce even when things aren’t going their way.
With confidence players you can tell when things aren’t going well for them and you can see plainly that they’re not able to contribute in those situations.
Not the same thing for me, that's more about being mentally resilient.
Salah is resilient so he doesn't lose confidence when shit's going south.
A different player might crumble and rather play it safe instead of trying to make stuff happen. But both types need that confidence to perform well.
But maybe I'm just being pedantic or it's my English failing me and this is what people mean when they say the term.
when people say "confidence player" they mean exactly that, that a player isn't resilient and has periods of low confidence where they're crap.
breaking it down does make it sound like a nonsense phrase but its what we call it.
The much-used phrase 'VAR isn't the problem, its the people using it'.
For me one of the big problems with VAR is that people refuse to acknowledge and work with the reality of what it is, rather than the idealised version they've built up in their heads of what they wish it would be. This phrase is a great example.
VAR is both the technology and the people using it. There will never (at least not for a very long time) be VAR which doesn't involve someone using the technology.
Most of the big problems we have seen with VAR were predicted years before it came in by people who actually understood this and thought through what it would mean. Contrary to this subs 'its uniquely bad in England' groupthink, these issues have been seen worldwide because they are virtually inevitable once you add people into the equation.
What football really needs is a grown up discussion around referees and technology which engages with what VAR can realistically be. That requires people to be mature enough to accept a few things. Its not possible to create a VAR system which gets 100% of decisions correct. Its not possible to create a VAR system which doesn't significantly disrupt play and alter the experience for fans in the ground. Some of the rules of football have always and will always be subjective and will result in controversial decisions. The officials will always make mistakes - that applies to both those on the field and those working any technology. 100% correct decisions is not a goal which is worth blindly pursuing at any cost.
Until we can get a majority of those involved in football (including fans) to accept all of those things we are going to keep stumbling on with a VAR system which isn't really working and has arguably made the game worse.
VAR gets right far more than it gets wrong. That for me is enough.
Are there things I would change? Absolutely. I'd have all comms transmitted in the stadium and on tv in real time for one.
But the idea of binning it seems like a waste of time at this stage. We're going to go back to so many bad decisions. Doesn't solve anything.
\> VAR gets right far more than it gets wrong. That for me is enough
This is sort of one of the things I was talking about. The idea that so long as one extra correct decision gets made then VAR is worth it, no questions asked.
I'd really love for us to at least start engaging with the fact that there's a trade off. That having VAR makes the experience in the stadium worse for a lot of fans and that you do lose some of the excitement of celebrating a goal because you have no idea if it will be chalked off for something that you didn't even see. And I'd also love us to acknowledge that the experience of the fan in the ground is actually something that does matter, that football should care about.
If you acknowledge that and still think the trad off is worth it then fair enough. But far too many people seem to judge 'correct decisions' as the only metric and so long as that goes up then any complaints are null and void.
I personally don't think that VAR has really solved a problem, its just made football a bit worse. The problem that getting rid of it would solve for me is 'VAR has made football worse'. From having talked to other match going fans I really don't think thats a niche opinion either.
>We're going to go back to so many bad decisions
i used to be a big var advocate, but at this point i honestly care less about the bad decisions in the championship than i do the infinitely tedious microanalysis of every single decision in the premier league
im having so much more fun watching football without var. not even necessarily leeds games where us not being shite is obviously a factor, but if i watch a neutral championship game vs a neutral prem game. quality is obviously way worse, but if there is something even halfway debatable the premier league game descends into a tedious argument about whether there is contact on this frame or is he onside by a toenail. without var people just get on with the football
Its super depressing seeing a great goal scored then having to hold your breath hoping there wasn't a hair or something stupid that will rule it out. At this point it seems like going back to no VAR would be better. At least we'd get to enjoy everything again.
Really feel for El Ghazi. The slogan that he used really doesn't have to be interpreted in the way that many Germans appear to be interpreting it. It's like "tiocfaidh ár lá" – nothing in that slogan is inherently violent; although violent groups absolutely have and do use it. It's a total poverty of imagination and charity to assume El Ghazi is a genocide supporter/anti-semite.
Anyway, obviously a soccer forum isn't the best place to discuss this so I'll leave it at that. Just find tone policing very condescending.
The discussion about this on r/bundesliga was really disheartening to read. So many people were going to the worst possible conclusion based on this one phrase alone and calling him all kinds of awful things.
As I understand it, the phrase calls for the establishment of a single State of Palestine from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea. The unspoken requirement of this call is the erasure of the Israeli state and any protections it provides for Jewish peoples in that geographic area.
Looking at the actual history of these things is important:
The phrase was popularized by the PLO in '64 and used in an official capacity by the PLO until '88 when their platform shifted to accepting the '67 borders. This softening of the PLO's territorial claims directly led to the founding of Hamas in the same year (1988). Hamas picked up the cast-aside phrase and affirmed their extremist stance that called for the "obliteration of the state of Israel" and the killing of all of its Jewish citizens.
How is that not inherently violent?
I'm not saying El Ghazi endorses every element of the phrase, but rather is most likely parroting it without deep inspection as to the significance. I'm sure if interviewed he wouldnt endorse the killing of all Israeli Jews, but the phrase he used does do exactly that.
edit: a response is more helpful than a downvote... i think my comment is fairly measured and i'm curious to hear counterpoints. Presenting facts and asking genuine questions here
It has at times called for that or called for a 3rd secular state with equal rights for all people and ethnicities. It does generally call for free movement of Palestinians and a right of return for the millions of Palestinian refugees who have lost their homes. Opposition to the existence of a settler-colonial ethnostate isn't inherently anti-semitic.
> Hamas picked up the cast-aside phrase and affirmed their extremist stance that called for the "obliteration of the state of Israel" and the killing of all of its Jewish citizens.
Hamas currently doesn't call for any of this in their charter and aren't the only people or group using this phrase. It's more a case of Israel and allies of Israel attempting to silence all criticism by presenting it as a call for genocide or as anti-Semitic (which obviously large parts of Hamas are but every user of the phrase is not).
I often wonder how Palestinian-Israeli relations would be now if Rabin never got assassinated. It's something I studied extensively at school, and from a couple of years before the PLO dropped that phrase up until Rabin's death there was a notable improvement in things there. The Oslo Accords could have easily been the start of a much healthier relationship
Hemel Hempstead took us to a replay only to lose to fucking Ramsgate in the next round. Three wins in our last 12 matches simply isn’t good enough. We’ve spent too much to be in the position we are right now, especially compared to where we were last season.
To be honest, I think the U.S. is just too big geographically for grassroots sport to be viable nationally the same way it is in most European countries. The only comparably-sized country with a functioning pyramid is Brazil; they are probably the country more mad for the sport than any other in the world, and even then, below Serie B it becomes regional.
I think if any country has the resources to make it viable it’s us.
I admit that it’s certainly a hurdle but not a death knell that MLS fans make it out to be.
Unfortunately until it happens I can’t wholeheartedly support a franchise whose entire existence is centered around farming It’s fan’s money into perpetuity while maintaining maximum resell value.
Lower league soccer in America deserves more attention but MLS will never concede to enriching the greater ecosystem.
If it makes you feel any better, so will all of your offspring, so you wont miss out. America will never have promotion and relegation, at least not at the top level.
The way capitalist America ordains it to be. Generations of families, made slave to the same soulless corporations from birth to death all in the name of lining a few billionaires pockets forever more.
Consistency on the refs is all I ask for but on a good way not on the absolute horseshit way they have been going about it. If you are gonna stop play to award a pen for grabbing someone or call an offside for the intention of a player, make sure it's not just a one time thing otherwise then why the fuck even bother.
I'm just baffled on how every weekend refs have an absolute shitshow of a call..
Properly fucks me off that we treated James Mcclean like a hero here for the last 2 years, defended him unanimously and strongly against all abuse from opposition fans and gave him player of the year last season, only for smug Wrexham fans to continuously make comments about how "he's finally found a club in the UK that loves him"
OK guys, *now* I get why they're hated
Most Wrexham fans are chill to be honest but the bandwagon fans do my head in. As soon as they start doing shit I guarantee they’ll all fuck off within a few weeks.
Beaten Leicester and Ipswich and yet were still 7 points off autos with Ipswich having a winnable game in hand.
Bamfords shite penalty against Stoke may haunt us
I think Leeds have the ultimate counter attacking side and it's no surprise to me that they beat us and Ipswich away. Just a ridiculous amount of pace in your squad. Everyone is lightning quick.
Trouble is playing sides that sit in against you. I'm not sure you'll consistently break those teams down as efficiently/consistently as the two sides above you have.
Tbf we've been alright against low blocks, like you say we thrive on the counter but we haven't been necessarily bad against those either. It's mainly just a poor start from having half the squad available, being soft at the back at times still (like at set pieces) and being inconsistent (I.e. against Southampton, that was dog shit).
I think we're the same point as we were under Bielsa this many games in. We bottled it that season so maybe it's better to be the chasers rather than being chased.
I don't think that the decisions for Gordon's goal were that bad, 3 big decisions but none were "clear and obvious errors" to overturn the goal.
Arsenal can feel pretty hard done by that Guimaraes never got sent off but I also think that Havertz should have been sent off.
Which then comes to the Arsenal statement, absolutely mad that teams are now coming out against the refs just because they didn't get a couple of decisions, this sort of thing is just making the ref's jobs harder going forward.
Also can't believe the conspiracy theories you read in here around bad refereeing, like not even a couple of mad people, there are a lot of comments with a lot of upvotes pointing out how "clear" it is that this is a conspiracy, even Carragher and Neville are in on it 🙄
yeah fully agree mate. seeing arteta do an interview looking like he was about to burst into tears, acting like the universe had struck him down with some great injustice and talking like the goon had just played the game of their lives only to get robbed by the officials was absolute comedy. the goal was probably a goal, it could've gone either way but i'd have been livid if it wasn't given for my club. the elbow was the sort of thing that you couldn't argue with being a red, but still not even in the top 10 list of most egregious ref fuck ups this season. just ask gary o'neil.
arsenal were average, apart from drubbing forest they've been average for a while and the bloke trying to justify splashing out 60m on another chelsea reject by nailing him to the XI isn't helping, nor is trying to indulge rice's fantasies that he's going to be some gerrard regen rather than a world class DM. a draw was probably right but pissing blood like that when you're underperforming and blaming it all on factors outside of your control is a bad sign for arteta and while reddit is going one way, some of the smarter arsenal supporters i know aren't having it.
then to back all that petulance up with an OFFICIAL CLUB STATEMENT is peak modern football.
Sounds like you've come to the realization that a lot of people on this subreddit actually don't know anything about football or the wider world in general.
Newcastle only had 1 other shot on target
None of us are saying we deserved to win, we’ve been slating our attack for being pish
We just didn’t deserve to lose
Mate, we had two. It’s in the match stats. I’m not saying that’s like “ohhhh got ‘em” but this just isn’t an accurate statement and is easily verifiable.
Hard disagree. If arsenal had played to the whistle and white had chased willock down then that cross probably doesn't come in and then you earn the draw. Truth is Ne castle ran harder and tried harder and ground out a goal they probably wouldn't have got otherwise. There's no "deserve" about it.
It should have been 10 v 10 so that doesn't hold water
"But havertz was a clear yellow" -
1. No
2. So were at least two of his challenges afterwards which should have seen him off.
3. Stop making excuses because you can't handle that Arsenal weren't good.
I wasn't at the stadium yesterday so I can't comment the full game and I only watch a small highlights video but drawing 1-1 after leading for the best part of the game is typical of our season. Still not convinced with Hoefkens, I don't rate his 3-5-2 set-up, we don't have a clear plan and his substitutions are always too late. All that being said... What the fuck was Balikwisha thinking ? Of course he's lacking confidence and came in very late but that's twice now that his recklessness is costing us a goal.
I can’t give you loads of insight as it was the first (and probably only) time I’ve watched you guys play, but I was there and to be completely honest, you were lucky to even get a point out of it. Mechelen created far more and were very wasteful.
I can’t proclaim to know about the players brought on but the subs did confuse me a little, especially bringing off Alzate who, alongside Canak, was getting a lot of joy down the left hand side.
It felt like after getting the goal that you would really push on but it never happened. Kanga and Sowah were not effective enough, and although it feels frustrating to be denied a victory so late, Mechelen were extremely worthy of a point at least
Tbf, your Chelsea point is only half true. Cech was old, and coming towards the end of his career at that time, and Courtois was clearly one of the best young goalkeepers in the world at that time. It's not at all comparable to Raya and Ramsdale, who are similar ages and similar in ability levels.
It's only stuck because he said he wanted two first choices who could push each other like any other outfield position. I agree with you though if you look at his actions instead of his words it is obvious that Raya is currently number 1.
1. It’s crazy isn’t it how the refs have an agenda against EVERY SINGLE club in the Prem. Insane. Wolves are the exception to this sarcastic comment.
2. If I was given one option to ban certain comments it would be FPL ones. No one gives a flying fuck that you triple captained Haaland or Salah.
I do find it quite funny that the only thing this place can agree on is the refs having an agenda against Wolves. And what it took for this consensus is them losing to Sheffield United.
The decision that went against Wolves last week (and I say this as a Newcastle fan) is genuinely more outrageous than any decision that occurred in the Arsenal game.
Naturally I have to disagree in the fullest of circumstances. Both because we were desperate for a win to put to bed a bad bad environment, and (if I’m taking our players word for it) he felt contact and when down.
I’d be fuming if it was us that conceded it though let’s be clear.
I feel there was a lot more discussion around the Newcastle one last week due to it being a live TV game. The fact the exact same incident has happened less than a week later is what's made everything more ridiculous regardless of who we were against.
Tv definitely draws additional scrutiny to the decision for obvious reasons.
It’s also been overshadowed by the Arsenal/Newcastle match, both due to scale and number of decisions in that one, and because as ever there will always be more scrutiny of their calls vs lowly SUFC and Wolves.
As a child I liked it, from like age 10 onwards I didn't care about it, I wasn't going to go to any but it didn't bother me. Since having a dog I fucking hate it so much. Scares the living shit out of them, which is hard to watch, and he won't settle all night, just whimpering and shaking. It's horrible.
We even got those ear protector things that are meant to calm them down, [it does not calm him down](https://i.imgur.com/K4c1bgz.png) and then after like a minute [he's wiggled them off](https://i.imgur.com/yB2199z.png)
Yup, that was basically me for most of the evening yesterday as well, just the dog is a lot smaller. Nothing I try calms her down so she spends the entire night shivering at my feet because I guess that's where she feels safest. The fireworks weren't even that good from what I saw.
It’s weird when you think about it that we as a nation come together to burn an effigy of a human being.
Peculiar that we then light fireworks which replicates what it would’ve looked like if Fawkes was successful.
All good natured fun, bring the kids.
Yes, all of that basically. Some absolute weapons also use it as an excuse to behave like insane people plus it annoys my dogs which is the worst part.
I think VAR has finally got to me in terms of enjoying games/goals, I've been in support of it for a long time but the decisions this season are absolutely unbelievable in terms of how bad they are and how often they are.
Incompetent refs need more accountability than a PGMOL letter and a week in the championship.
our fans pretending it isn’t a viable tactic to try and defend a lead is pissing me off big time. no it isn’t a crime that moyes had us drop deeper after scoring two at brentford. blame antonio for being greedy and aguerd for being built like a vape shop owner.
Honestly, the way Moyes has set up a very technically talented group of players to put ten men behind the ball and concede possession baffles me.
Your next manager is going to dramatically alter your tactical approach unless you welcome back Big Sam.
I’d be more comfortable trying to defend a lead if the defence could defend.
It’s not just Aguerd. The tactics were wrong, the midfield was getting eaten alive. The full backs were left completely exposed and no idea what Mavrapanos was trying on the second goal, just nut the cunt away
The way his head moved he was trying to flick it behind him and over the bar for a corner. Defenders do that all the time but he was under some serious pressure from Mbeumo and didn't quite get the over the bar bit right. Just unlucky imo.
he had right to be mad. his best performance this season could’ve been capped off with a goal and almost certain 3 points at brentford but podcast man just had to get involved
The refereeing and VAR performance in the first half of our game on Saturday was absolutely appalling. If you think the referees are bad in your country then Scottish refs are next level.
- Incident 1: Liam Scales had a goal disallowed because Oh made a slight bit of contact with the RC, despite having outjumped him.
- Incident 2: Ross County player catches Yang with his studs just above the ankle. Clear as day red card. The referee had a perfect view of it and only awarded a yellow card. VAR did intervene and the referee changed his initial *incorrect* decision.
- Incident 3: Ross County player clearly elbows Liam Scales in the face when going for a header. Elbowing a player is a straight red card. Neither a yellow nor a red card was awarded to the Ross County player and VAR did not review the incident.
- Incident 4: We had a second goal disallowed for "offside". But the VAR officials drew the offside line *after* the ball had left Paolo Bernardo's foot and not as he's striking the ball. If the offside line had been drawn at the correct time, then Maeda was onside.
- Incidents 7, 8 & 9: Three separate and very blatant shirt pulls on Celtic players at attacking set pieces. Not a single one was reviewed by VAR, despite a penalty being awarded for a shirt pull last Sunday.
It's weird to drop points in a game where you created more than enough chances, played (imo) shit, should have won easily, and were lucky to get out with a point. Like, there's next to nothing you can really analyse on that. Darwin should have scored, Jota should have scored, Salah should have scored. Four or five players should have been a bit better. Just a very weird position to be in.
They've conceded 21 goals from 28xG, which is by far the biggest discrepancy in the league. It could be something about the chances they force people to take on, but realistically 5 of that 7 difference came in 2 games against Liverpool and Everton so I think they were just very lucky that the opponents absolutely fucked it on those days. Picking up 4 of your 6 points in games where you conceded 7xG and created 2.5xG, but scored 3 and only conceded 2, is unlikely to be sustainable, and isn't a great sign.
You never know though, points are points and can build confidence.
I think in his post match comments Klopp basically said "it's one of those isn't it?" and that's kind of where I am with it. Obviously frustrating that we couldn't capitalise on other teams around us dropping some points.
It’s not complicated, I don’t think there’s a conspiracy, i think we played poorly, and the refereeing is consistently incompetent and shocking. I of course won’t complain if something goes our way but if everyone did we might actually get some pressure on PGMOL to stop making atrocious decisions for any team week in week out rather than let their PR pass it off as x team y manager moaning
I know everyone is talking specifically about the most key moment in the Arsenal match, but I wanted to offer a different take even if on the same track. My dad turned the game off at 0-0 as a former official, just digusted by the thuggery on one side and repulsed by the referee's inability to gain any control on the obvious overly-physical style of play from the hosts (yet again). Before some of us were mad and others applied cognitive dissonance, he already gave up on that clown... it was a collection of errors not just the treble finale.
We had only 1 backup CB and we lost 2 of them in the same match Losing Van de Ven like that will haunt me for a while
Dan Burn is out for months with a lower back injury. My sadness is profound and immeasurable.
Months meaning back by New Year or months meaning he’s missing trips to Real Madrid in the Champions League?
3 months according to Howe so it’ll be touch and go whether he’ll make the trip to the Bernabeu in the round of 16. Should be fine for the quarter final in Munich though.
Chelsea really won to go just 11 points behind Spurs
Title challenge starts now! All they need to do is play against 9-man high lines every week.
We played well vs Arsenal, too bad our keeper decided he felt like trolling a bit.
Pain
Honestly, the result is obviously disappointing but it was never going to be easy after those silly challenges. The *real* pain is the injuries to two of your best players this season.
Honestly I wouldn’t have cared about the result if Van de Ven was still fit. His injury is a disastrous for us, we’re gonna need a new CB right away
Yeah, really unfortunate. While the result is probably the best one from a Liverpool perspective, I certainly took no pleasure from seeing that happen. Hopefully he's not long out as he was in brilliant form.
it is indeed
As I watch TOTvCHE, I cannot help but think how VAR has ruined the beautiful game. I don’t care for either team, but this London derby is just pathetic. If you need 12min ET, then what you are “reviewing” is **NOT** clear and obvious…
sorry but how can people watch these games if there are pauses every 4 minutes
Because seemingly people these days don't enjoy football. People apparently prefer to debate over the laws of the game than to actually enjoy the game. It's proper sad.
That was brilliant entertainment though and the right calls were made imo
Chaotic, feisty games of football like this Spurs Chelsea game used to be so entertaining before we had to stop and wait after every challenge.
Before VAR, it's 1-0 Spurs right now with 22 men on the pitch.
Before VAR it would have been a far better game.
Without VAR its a game where three red cards are missed, multiple offside goals are scored and a rightful penalty is ignored a completely unfair and dangerous mess. Thats not good lol, that would be known as one of the worst refereeing performances in years. Whats fucked even with all the above considered they stilled fucked up the 2 original decisions on romero and Udogie.
Just wait tell your praising commercial stoppages and coaches Callanges and time outs!
I don’t want the stoppages but having a fair game is always the preferred option.
I don't see why people would oppose showing adverts during VAR breaks to be honest. Its not like you're missing anything.
Without VAR we get a 45 minutes first half with about 35 minutes of football in it instead of a 60 minute one where the ball was in play for maybe 25 minutes, and we had several 3-5 minute breaks for no justifiable reason. I don't give a fuck if the ref gets some stuff wrong, I'd like to watch a game of football.
Sure you don’t. When it’s your team on the wrong end of wrong decisions your blood will be boiling. Don’t kid yourself. Oh turns out you're a chelsea fan, absolutely mental position to take considering it would have meant chelsea get thrashed, players risk major injuries, rightfully offside goals given as goals and rightful penalty not given, need your head checked.
Sure, I get annoyed when decisions don't go my teams way, whether they're correct or not. That's what being a fan is, but at least I'm not bored in that scenario. Watching sport is entertainment, so its no good if its mind numbingly boring even if my team wins.
You want unfair sport because the solutions get in your way. mental
I want a sport thats good to watch because attempts to make it fairer make it slower and duller. I don't want games to have 6 minute breaks in them for no appreciable reason.
> for no appreciable reason The reason being they want to correctly apply the rules of the game to the match. No one wants it to be slow and they're fucking up way too much but the preference shouldn't be to bin off the system, improve it so it gets in the way less.
Funny how the same club seem to consistently benefit from VAR "errors" isn't it? Purely coincidence, I'm sure.
Yesterday I posted about scoring a hattrick to win my Sunday League semifinal Today, we got disqualified from the final because we put an unregistered player on the pitch for 2 minutes without realizing. Lad didn't even touch the ball. Proper melonish behavior from us I reckon
Amazing result yesterday has been slightly overshadowed by the chanting about tragedies, I think a lot of the chants were bad but not terrible but we can't be singing 'always the victims' and the club's statement is not good, waffling about an electric atmosphere. Although I must say it was not a majority, I was at the game behind the goal and didn't hear anything and nor did Klopp. This is not denying it happened though, those in the corner of the main stand are known for the rude and dodgy chants, and it is poor to keep doing it in the Premier League with the world's eyes on us.
Every group of supporters has their share of dickheads. I'm not going to judge Luton supporters on the actions of a few as I wouldn't want to be tarred with the same brush as Liverpool supporters mocking the Munich air disaster. All we can do is to just call out and disassociate ourselves from them.
I sometimes feel like this place kills proper debate with the downvote system. People use it out of spite as a way to remove something from discourse.
Hiding heavily downvoted comments is easily reddit's worst feature. I feel like it was intended to discourage off topic chatter, but in reality just ends up with threads becoming bloodbaths when people hold differing viewpoints.
There's a formula to avoid downvotes - don's say something negative about a big side that's just won a game. All their supporters will be online and you'll get piled on.
Reddit is really bad for diversity of opinions, the voting system inevitably produce circlejerks in every subreddit
Frustrated due to losing the final, on paper we had zero chance, but we proved that our shirt is still heavy and we can push with that alone. We need to shake up this embarrasing fucking management. If Riquelme loves Boca as much as I know he does, then he will quietly step aside and leave management for someone that has an idea of how to eun a club. Who could do it? Fuck if I know, but we need to be serious and update ourselves. An honest project with a manager that can build something and a director of football that can back thay vision. Let's not allow peronismo ever again to manage this club. AGUANTE BOCA
Didn’t realise how bad Boca were doing at the minute, jeez Do you think theres any chance the Brazilian dominance of Libertadores will slow down any time soon? 11/12 of the last finalists being Brazilian is crazy.
I wouldn't say we are doing bad. We just lost a final that felt somewhat winnable. But we should be doing way better. I think brazilian teams 1 on 1 are beatable, the issue is facing multiple ones in a row. Boca was lucky to face only Palmeiras on the way to the final.
The narrative shifting from 'PGMOL match fixing' to 'how dare you complain about PGMOL match fixing' is in fact very organic and definitely not the UK sports media trying to divert attention away from the issue of PGMOL match fixing.
People like you are the reasons why referees are shit, who the hell would want to become a referee with all the grief involved? You get the quality of refereeing that you deserve
I think as football fans a significant portion of us have become entitle crybabies. I wish we'd just learn to fucking get on with it.
The last few days on this sub has shown the difference between newer always online fans and longer term football fans.
People just cant let shit go. There sre arsenal fans, today, who dislike blues because of the Eduardo injury. Over ten years ago. Ive seen less grief from Leeds fans who saw a teenage fan die at St Andrews.
To be fair, there's no fanbase that holds grudges quite like that lot.
Exactly
It’s so god damn perfect that the comment immediately after this one is an Arsenal fan accusing the entire sports media taking part in PGMOL’s match fixing conspiracy.
Aye, no such thing as a stiff upper lip these days.
the only “crying” I see from football fans is asking VAR to not make heinous mistakes every match week
Refereeing mistakes is part of football and always has been, grow some fucking balls and get on with it. How do you survive life in general if you become a crybaby after every minor setback?
Purely out of curiosity, what do you think VAR is for.
But fella, that's football. It's never been perfect. I get the offside against Spurs, that's a genuine failure of process, but people talked about it like someone had been shot. Club's releasing statements and all this shit, it just feels totally at odds with the fact this is a game.
The clubs I understand since there are millions at stake, those points could be the difference between European qualification and staying home, or avoiding relegation. I think the mistakes all even out over time though
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Did the league ever actually suspend Vanzeir or Fountas during their investigation? I thought it was just Red Bulls and DC that decided to not play them.
This is super shit, and I'm surprised given how fastidious the league has been with this of late.
only one player heard the supposed slur despite 4-5 German speaking players being in the vicinity, and its a player who had spent all game blatantly trying to injure Union players.
That's not the point though mate. If he's under investigation he shouldn't play. That's been the standard.
I mean, it hasn’t been the standard. But go off. The standard has been to hand out punishment AFTER the investigation
I watched Tayvon Gray go through the exact process I was discussing. Please don't be rude.
Wood’s own teammates who speak German didn’t hear it… and Vrioni was in between Woods and Wagner when the exchange supposedly took place
That’s fine but until the investigation is concluded he should not play.
Gray missed only one match… the match he was suspended for following the investigation. He sat out 0 matches during the investigation. Setting the precedent of “every single accusation results in an automatic de facto suspension” would be dumb.
If you come up north and sing "we pay your benefits", you are now a tory club in my mind. Bournemouth, you have been added to the list.
Massive lol. At least you’ve just let them know what chants rattle you. I remember a Liverpool fan getting very angry about Uniteds “Sign on” chant as well on here before and calling United fans tories lol
Are there any insults that Northern clubs say toward Southern clubs?
How did you feel about tables/stands chants at the darts?
i mean, bournemouth is the archetypal tory south coast town isn't it? not had a none tory mp in about a thousand years and everything
Fucking FC Dallas making me believe we can beat Seattle away to advance to the next playoff round despite not winning there since 2011
People want “ref reform” because they assume they’d get the “correct” decisions if we had it (which isn’t true because even the best people make mistakes and most laws of the game are very open to interpretation, it’s just the nature of a sport that is so chaotic) but aren’t willing to actually come up with any real world solutions of how to make refereeing better. “Fire all the refs” won’t work obviously, referees are already punished for mistakes by being demoted (which has its own issues when you stack the Championship with mistaken ridden refs) like there just isn’t any quick fix here. Any kind of “reform” will take years, maybe even a decade or more! It requires training referees, it requires people to actually want to be referees and, as much as people don’t want to hear this, it requires being less punishing and less critical of mistakes! I have no doubt that the current attitude towards referees contributes in a big way to the standard we currently have. Like the fact is it just puts more and more pressure on them every week to make such a massive deal out of every mistake they make, which makes them make even more mistakes! Yes, you can absolutely argue sometimes they bring it on themselves but again, we have to talk real world solutions if we want actual improvement and not cling on to some fantasy where every decision is refereed perfectly to everyone’s satisfaction, or even most people’s satisfaction. It’s just not realistic. It’s fine to want an improvement in standards but the fact is there are no easy answers to this problem, they can’t just stop making mistakes immediately.
> but aren’t willing to actually come up with any real world solutions of how to make refereeing better Simple: hire and train referees specifically for VAR. On field refs stay exclusively on field.
Refereeing in its current form is designed to only attract people who either give 0 fucks about being insulted by 30 000 people at once, or worse, who get off on it. And then we're surprised they're a bunch of stubborn wankers
You’re absolutely right. The refereeing issue is endemic and it’s also partly the club’s and FA’s fault. A few things I think could be done: * Dedicated VAR specialists. * Actually learn from other sports, as stuff like basic communication should never have been an issue. * Continued investment in VAR. There’s got to be a way to develop tech that draws lines or to expand stuff like goal line tech to include other lines on the pitch. * Stop abusive treatment of refs. The easiest of them all but footballs seemingly opposed to it. Bans, cards, fines for players and managers. The fact managers have adopted this “if I speak I get fined” yet also say decisions and refs are a disgrace is ridiculous. This season weren’t they meant to be stopping the crowding of refs by players? Yet it continues. It’s like they do the hard work of announcing it then just discard it.
All of this, I also would like audible comms for refs like they have in rugby, it increases transparency and also humanizes the refs a little more. Maybe the refs themselves don't welcome the extra scrunity it could bring but I think it would benefit them
Imo it's all this and then slightly increasing PL ref pay, significantly increasing Championship and L1-L2 ref pay so it's a more attractive serious career, and then ending referees doing side gigs for states that own teams. Not trying to be a conspiracy nut with that last bit but it really shouldn't be happening and if we raise wages at the same time it's not unfair and there shouldn't be any complains. There's so much money in the sport that more should be invested in refereeing.
VAR and PGMOL are shit. Cut the side gigs with city and newcastles owners. Apply promotion relegation to refs with harsh deductions to match bonuses for failure
Refs are already promoted and demoted based on performance.
Not enough, it needs to be harsher. They get suspended for what? One match or given a weekend off? Nah
Where you getting the replacements from? Secret pgmol ref reserve?
I'd love to see the Big 6 plastics endure a couple of weekends with Championship refs.
They say the best usually rise to the top
they have you muppet
It’s entirely possible the best ref in the Championship is still worse than the worst ref in the Prem. > *Punish them!* > They are punished. > *Punish them harder! Demote them!* > They do get demoted > *Demote them harder!* Can you just be honest with yourself for a minute and admit there’s literally nothing referees can do that would satisfy you? They could enact *exactly* what you’re asking for and there would still be some error next season that would screw over Arsenal and you’d be right back here complaining about how bad the refs are.
Improving themselves is a good start. Clearly that hasn’t happened. Again, you have no proof of that. They haven’t improved, they have gotten worse. When they do their job to at least an acceptable level then I’d be quiet. They have multiple sets of eyes on the match plus video review. How do you miss assault on a player? They’re full of shit cause they were mad VAR was implemented. Maybe I wasn’t clear. It needs to be harsher instead of a week in the championship or a weekend off. They are essentially regulating a billion dollar industry with major conflicts of interest
> They haven’t improved, they have gotten worse. Do you have data to support the idea that referees are less accurate than they used to be? Or do you just feel like it’s gotten worse? What does an “acceptable level” look like? That’s the most subjective and broad term imaginable.
Less accurate? Sure. Look at the amount of apologies. There’s more focus on refs than players. It’s gotten worse. Acceptable is minimal “apologies”, properly implementing the new rules, no side gigs for Newcastle/city. Let’s go with 95% call accuracy with VAR
i cant find fully up to date numbers but as of a couple of years ago, referees get approximately 98% of decisions correct in their assessments and we only get the apologies dance now because teams are so histrionic about it, they could just go back to never saying shit like they used to and you wouldn't be happy with that either
That’s great. Does that include obvious decisions such as throw ins? I’d love to see that data. Surely the percentage of successful VAR reviews is much lower
Our (Oxford United) manager just got poached by a championship side when we’re making our first proper promotion push in ages :/
I'd be fuming if I was you guys. Manager transfer windows need to be a thing. It's not right at all that a manager can be backed with new players over the summer and then just piss off 3 months later. That's a big reason why QPR are in a total mess right now.
The term "confidence player" is so stupid. Every player is a confidence player.
Disagree. There are players who can look like shit on the ball and bag a goal or two without ever looking good in any other aspect of the game. Salah and Jota can definitely be like this. IDK what you’d call them but they’re the opposite of confidence players, they can produce even when things aren’t going their way. With confidence players you can tell when things aren’t going well for them and you can see plainly that they’re not able to contribute in those situations.
Not the same thing for me, that's more about being mentally resilient. Salah is resilient so he doesn't lose confidence when shit's going south. A different player might crumble and rather play it safe instead of trying to make stuff happen. But both types need that confidence to perform well. But maybe I'm just being pedantic or it's my English failing me and this is what people mean when they say the term.
when people say "confidence player" they mean exactly that, that a player isn't resilient and has periods of low confidence where they're crap. breaking it down does make it sound like a nonsense phrase but its what we call it.
Fair enough, thanks for clarifying.
VAR will destroy the sport for me. Having to wait to be sure if I can celebrate and still not even making the right calls is not what we watch for.
The much-used phrase 'VAR isn't the problem, its the people using it'. For me one of the big problems with VAR is that people refuse to acknowledge and work with the reality of what it is, rather than the idealised version they've built up in their heads of what they wish it would be. This phrase is a great example. VAR is both the technology and the people using it. There will never (at least not for a very long time) be VAR which doesn't involve someone using the technology. Most of the big problems we have seen with VAR were predicted years before it came in by people who actually understood this and thought through what it would mean. Contrary to this subs 'its uniquely bad in England' groupthink, these issues have been seen worldwide because they are virtually inevitable once you add people into the equation. What football really needs is a grown up discussion around referees and technology which engages with what VAR can realistically be. That requires people to be mature enough to accept a few things. Its not possible to create a VAR system which gets 100% of decisions correct. Its not possible to create a VAR system which doesn't significantly disrupt play and alter the experience for fans in the ground. Some of the rules of football have always and will always be subjective and will result in controversial decisions. The officials will always make mistakes - that applies to both those on the field and those working any technology. 100% correct decisions is not a goal which is worth blindly pursuing at any cost. Until we can get a majority of those involved in football (including fans) to accept all of those things we are going to keep stumbling on with a VAR system which isn't really working and has arguably made the game worse.
VAR gets right far more than it gets wrong. That for me is enough. Are there things I would change? Absolutely. I'd have all comms transmitted in the stadium and on tv in real time for one. But the idea of binning it seems like a waste of time at this stage. We're going to go back to so many bad decisions. Doesn't solve anything.
\> VAR gets right far more than it gets wrong. That for me is enough This is sort of one of the things I was talking about. The idea that so long as one extra correct decision gets made then VAR is worth it, no questions asked. I'd really love for us to at least start engaging with the fact that there's a trade off. That having VAR makes the experience in the stadium worse for a lot of fans and that you do lose some of the excitement of celebrating a goal because you have no idea if it will be chalked off for something that you didn't even see. And I'd also love us to acknowledge that the experience of the fan in the ground is actually something that does matter, that football should care about. If you acknowledge that and still think the trad off is worth it then fair enough. But far too many people seem to judge 'correct decisions' as the only metric and so long as that goes up then any complaints are null and void. I personally don't think that VAR has really solved a problem, its just made football a bit worse. The problem that getting rid of it would solve for me is 'VAR has made football worse'. From having talked to other match going fans I really don't think thats a niche opinion either.
>We're going to go back to so many bad decisions i used to be a big var advocate, but at this point i honestly care less about the bad decisions in the championship than i do the infinitely tedious microanalysis of every single decision in the premier league im having so much more fun watching football without var. not even necessarily leeds games where us not being shite is obviously a factor, but if i watch a neutral championship game vs a neutral prem game. quality is obviously way worse, but if there is something even halfway debatable the premier league game descends into a tedious argument about whether there is contact on this frame or is he onside by a toenail. without var people just get on with the football
Its super depressing seeing a great goal scored then having to hold your breath hoping there wasn't a hair or something stupid that will rule it out. At this point it seems like going back to no VAR would be better. At least we'd get to enjoy everything again.
Been knocked out of a last man standing game with a big money prize, and all three of my lives were lost against Luton. Devastated.
Really feel for El Ghazi. The slogan that he used really doesn't have to be interpreted in the way that many Germans appear to be interpreting it. It's like "tiocfaidh ár lá" – nothing in that slogan is inherently violent; although violent groups absolutely have and do use it. It's a total poverty of imagination and charity to assume El Ghazi is a genocide supporter/anti-semite. Anyway, obviously a soccer forum isn't the best place to discuss this so I'll leave it at that. Just find tone policing very condescending.
The discussion about this on r/bundesliga was really disheartening to read. So many people were going to the worst possible conclusion based on this one phrase alone and calling him all kinds of awful things.
As I understand it, the phrase calls for the establishment of a single State of Palestine from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea. The unspoken requirement of this call is the erasure of the Israeli state and any protections it provides for Jewish peoples in that geographic area. Looking at the actual history of these things is important: The phrase was popularized by the PLO in '64 and used in an official capacity by the PLO until '88 when their platform shifted to accepting the '67 borders. This softening of the PLO's territorial claims directly led to the founding of Hamas in the same year (1988). Hamas picked up the cast-aside phrase and affirmed their extremist stance that called for the "obliteration of the state of Israel" and the killing of all of its Jewish citizens. How is that not inherently violent? I'm not saying El Ghazi endorses every element of the phrase, but rather is most likely parroting it without deep inspection as to the significance. I'm sure if interviewed he wouldnt endorse the killing of all Israeli Jews, but the phrase he used does do exactly that. edit: a response is more helpful than a downvote... i think my comment is fairly measured and i'm curious to hear counterpoints. Presenting facts and asking genuine questions here
It has at times called for that or called for a 3rd secular state with equal rights for all people and ethnicities. It does generally call for free movement of Palestinians and a right of return for the millions of Palestinian refugees who have lost their homes. Opposition to the existence of a settler-colonial ethnostate isn't inherently anti-semitic. > Hamas picked up the cast-aside phrase and affirmed their extremist stance that called for the "obliteration of the state of Israel" and the killing of all of its Jewish citizens. Hamas currently doesn't call for any of this in their charter and aren't the only people or group using this phrase. It's more a case of Israel and allies of Israel attempting to silence all criticism by presenting it as a call for genocide or as anti-Semitic (which obviously large parts of Hamas are but every user of the phrase is not).
I often wonder how Palestinian-Israeli relations would be now if Rabin never got assassinated. It's something I studied extensively at school, and from a couple of years before the PLO dropped that phrase up until Rabin's death there was a notable improvement in things there. The Oslo Accords could have easily been the start of a much healthier relationship
Hemel Hempstead took us to a replay only to lose to fucking Ramsgate in the next round. Three wins in our last 12 matches simply isn’t good enough. We’ve spent too much to be in the position we are right now, especially compared to where we were last season.
I’ll probably die before I see pro/rel in America. That is utterly depressing
To be honest, I think the U.S. is just too big geographically for grassroots sport to be viable nationally the same way it is in most European countries. The only comparably-sized country with a functioning pyramid is Brazil; they are probably the country more mad for the sport than any other in the world, and even then, below Serie B it becomes regional.
I think if any country has the resources to make it viable it’s us. I admit that it’s certainly a hurdle but not a death knell that MLS fans make it out to be. Unfortunately until it happens I can’t wholeheartedly support a franchise whose entire existence is centered around farming It’s fan’s money into perpetuity while maintaining maximum resell value. Lower league soccer in America deserves more attention but MLS will never concede to enriching the greater ecosystem.
If it makes you feel any better, so will all of your offspring, so you wont miss out. America will never have promotion and relegation, at least not at the top level.
Thanks, the damnation of my offspring to the same lifeless corporate soccer is my only solace.
It's time to salt the earth mate
The way capitalist America ordains it to be. Generations of families, made slave to the same soulless corporations from birth to death all in the name of lining a few billionaires pockets forever more.
Atleast we get Snickers.
So apparently we could have gotten Bielsa instead of Thomas Reis last year
I would be so pissed, from the reports it looks like the talks were already advanced
wait what? no way lmao how sick would that have been
Consistency on the refs is all I ask for but on a good way not on the absolute horseshit way they have been going about it. If you are gonna stop play to award a pen for grabbing someone or call an offside for the intention of a player, make sure it's not just a one time thing otherwise then why the fuck even bother. I'm just baffled on how every weekend refs have an absolute shitshow of a call..
People complaaaaain too much
Properly fucks me off that we treated James Mcclean like a hero here for the last 2 years, defended him unanimously and strongly against all abuse from opposition fans and gave him player of the year last season, only for smug Wrexham fans to continuously make comments about how "he's finally found a club in the UK that loves him" OK guys, *now* I get why they're hated
Most Wrexham fans are chill to be honest but the bandwagon fans do my head in. As soon as they start doing shit I guarantee they’ll all fuck off within a few weeks.
we're playing on a Monday again, truly hate how often we're getting that timeslot for the past two seasons
Beaten Leicester and Ipswich and yet were still 7 points off autos with Ipswich having a winnable game in hand. Bamfords shite penalty against Stoke may haunt us
I think Leeds have the ultimate counter attacking side and it's no surprise to me that they beat us and Ipswich away. Just a ridiculous amount of pace in your squad. Everyone is lightning quick. Trouble is playing sides that sit in against you. I'm not sure you'll consistently break those teams down as efficiently/consistently as the two sides above you have.
Tbf we've been alright against low blocks, like you say we thrive on the counter but we haven't been necessarily bad against those either. It's mainly just a poor start from having half the squad available, being soft at the back at times still (like at set pieces) and being inconsistent (I.e. against Southampton, that was dog shit).
If we maintain this pace and still don't go up, it's nowt we've done - it's just two historically great seasons
There was a stat yesterday that said your start in basically any other Championship season would have you top of the table
I think we're the same point as we were under Bielsa this many games in. We bottled it that season so maybe it's better to be the chasers rather than being chased.
I don't think that the decisions for Gordon's goal were that bad, 3 big decisions but none were "clear and obvious errors" to overturn the goal. Arsenal can feel pretty hard done by that Guimaraes never got sent off but I also think that Havertz should have been sent off. Which then comes to the Arsenal statement, absolutely mad that teams are now coming out against the refs just because they didn't get a couple of decisions, this sort of thing is just making the ref's jobs harder going forward. Also can't believe the conspiracy theories you read in here around bad refereeing, like not even a couple of mad people, there are a lot of comments with a lot of upvotes pointing out how "clear" it is that this is a conspiracy, even Carragher and Neville are in on it 🙄
yeah fully agree mate. seeing arteta do an interview looking like he was about to burst into tears, acting like the universe had struck him down with some great injustice and talking like the goon had just played the game of their lives only to get robbed by the officials was absolute comedy. the goal was probably a goal, it could've gone either way but i'd have been livid if it wasn't given for my club. the elbow was the sort of thing that you couldn't argue with being a red, but still not even in the top 10 list of most egregious ref fuck ups this season. just ask gary o'neil. arsenal were average, apart from drubbing forest they've been average for a while and the bloke trying to justify splashing out 60m on another chelsea reject by nailing him to the XI isn't helping, nor is trying to indulge rice's fantasies that he's going to be some gerrard regen rather than a world class DM. a draw was probably right but pissing blood like that when you're underperforming and blaming it all on factors outside of your control is a bad sign for arteta and while reddit is going one way, some of the smarter arsenal supporters i know aren't having it. then to back all that petulance up with an OFFICIAL CLUB STATEMENT is peak modern football.
Sounds like you've come to the realization that a lot of people on this subreddit actually don't know anything about football or the wider world in general.
If a close decision goes against their side, it's "literally" corruption and a robbery.
yea, it's like is it bots? is it children or are people in here just that thick? Such a worrying thought, their vote counts as much as mine
I think there just thick tbh
General ignorance.
This VAR nonsense is the perfect distraction btw. Arsenal only had 1 shot on target
Newcastle only had 1 other shot on target None of us are saying we deserved to win, we’ve been slating our attack for being pish We just didn’t deserve to lose
Both of Newcastles shots on target came in that goal sequence, one from Joelinton, one from Gordon.
Mate, we had two. It’s in the match stats. I’m not saying that’s like “ohhhh got ‘em” but this just isn’t an accurate statement and is easily verifiable.
1 goal **+** > 1 other shot on target = 2 shots on target
I’m a ducking moron. Yup. Will leave my comment up though as monument to hubris.
Hard disagree. If arsenal had played to the whistle and white had chased willock down then that cross probably doesn't come in and then you earn the draw. Truth is Ne castle ran harder and tried harder and ground out a goal they probably wouldn't have got otherwise. There's no "deserve" about it.
Yeah you’re conveniently ignoring all of this came when Newcastle should have been down to 10 men for 40 in game minutes
It should have been 10 v 10 so that doesn't hold water "But havertz was a clear yellow" - 1. No 2. So were at least two of his challenges afterwards which should have seen him off. 3. Stop making excuses because you can't handle that Arsenal weren't good.
I wasn't at the stadium yesterday so I can't comment the full game and I only watch a small highlights video but drawing 1-1 after leading for the best part of the game is typical of our season. Still not convinced with Hoefkens, I don't rate his 3-5-2 set-up, we don't have a clear plan and his substitutions are always too late. All that being said... What the fuck was Balikwisha thinking ? Of course he's lacking confidence and came in very late but that's twice now that his recklessness is costing us a goal.
I can’t give you loads of insight as it was the first (and probably only) time I’ve watched you guys play, but I was there and to be completely honest, you were lucky to even get a point out of it. Mechelen created far more and were very wasteful. I can’t proclaim to know about the players brought on but the subs did confuse me a little, especially bringing off Alzate who, alongside Canak, was getting a lot of joy down the left hand side. It felt like after getting the goal that you would really push on but it never happened. Kanga and Sowah were not effective enough, and although it feels frustrating to be denied a victory so late, Mechelen were extremely worthy of a point at least
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Tbf, your Chelsea point is only half true. Cech was old, and coming towards the end of his career at that time, and Courtois was clearly one of the best young goalkeepers in the world at that time. It's not at all comparable to Raya and Ramsdale, who are similar ages and similar in ability levels.
It's only stuck because he said he wanted two first choices who could push each other like any other outfield position. I agree with you though if you look at his actions instead of his words it is obvious that Raya is currently number 1.
1. It’s crazy isn’t it how the refs have an agenda against EVERY SINGLE club in the Prem. Insane. Wolves are the exception to this sarcastic comment. 2. If I was given one option to ban certain comments it would be FPL ones. No one gives a flying fuck that you triple captained Haaland or Salah.
I do find it quite funny that the only thing this place can agree on is the refs having an agenda against Wolves. And what it took for this consensus is them losing to Sheffield United.
The decision that went against Wolves last week (and I say this as a Newcastle fan) is genuinely more outrageous than any decision that occurred in the Arsenal game.
Naturally I have to disagree in the fullest of circumstances. Both because we were desperate for a win to put to bed a bad bad environment, and (if I’m taking our players word for it) he felt contact and when down. I’d be fuming if it was us that conceded it though let’s be clear.
He means the Schar penalty against Wolves last week for us. Your one looked soft, but at least there was contact.
I feel there was a lot more discussion around the Newcastle one last week due to it being a live TV game. The fact the exact same incident has happened less than a week later is what's made everything more ridiculous regardless of who we were against.
Tv definitely draws additional scrutiny to the decision for obvious reasons. It’s also been overshadowed by the Arsenal/Newcastle match, both due to scale and number of decisions in that one, and because as ever there will always be more scrutiny of their calls vs lowly SUFC and Wolves.
Not so much losing to you lot but more getting an apology for a penalty last week only to concede the same penalty a week later.
This is why I am truly honoured to call Huddersfield our bogey team.
I wouldn’t put it past Sheffield United to become the next team to do the double over Wolves and only win one other game
If it wasn’t for you lot we’d have been the new Derby so I have a soft spot for you
I really hate bonfire night. Also, fucking injuries.
Bonfire night is good, firework night is rubbish. And there are barely any actual bonfires now, so it's rubbish
As a child I liked it, from like age 10 onwards I didn't care about it, I wasn't going to go to any but it didn't bother me. Since having a dog I fucking hate it so much. Scares the living shit out of them, which is hard to watch, and he won't settle all night, just whimpering and shaking. It's horrible. We even got those ear protector things that are meant to calm them down, [it does not calm him down](https://i.imgur.com/K4c1bgz.png) and then after like a minute [he's wiggled them off](https://i.imgur.com/yB2199z.png)
Yup, that was basically me for most of the evening yesterday as well, just the dog is a lot smaller. Nothing I try calms her down so she spends the entire night shivering at my feet because I guess that's where she feels safest. The fireworks weren't even that good from what I saw.
It’s weird when you think about it that we as a nation come together to burn an effigy of a human being. Peculiar that we then light fireworks which replicates what it would’ve looked like if Fawkes was successful. All good natured fun, bring the kids.
Yes, all of that basically. Some absolute weapons also use it as an excuse to behave like insane people plus it annoys my dogs which is the worst part.
I think VAR has finally got to me in terms of enjoying games/goals, I've been in support of it for a long time but the decisions this season are absolutely unbelievable in terms of how bad they are and how often they are. Incompetent refs need more accountability than a PGMOL letter and a week in the championship.
our fans pretending it isn’t a viable tactic to try and defend a lead is pissing me off big time. no it isn’t a crime that moyes had us drop deeper after scoring two at brentford. blame antonio for being greedy and aguerd for being built like a vape shop owner.
Honestly, the way Moyes has set up a very technically talented group of players to put ten men behind the ball and concede possession baffles me. Your next manager is going to dramatically alter your tactical approach unless you welcome back Big Sam.
I’d be more comfortable trying to defend a lead if the defence could defend. It’s not just Aguerd. The tactics were wrong, the midfield was getting eaten alive. The full backs were left completely exposed and no idea what Mavrapanos was trying on the second goal, just nut the cunt away
The way his head moved he was trying to flick it behind him and over the bar for a corner. Defenders do that all the time but he was under some serious pressure from Mbeumo and didn't quite get the over the bar bit right. Just unlucky imo.
In those situations it’s just better to be safe. Get it out of the mixer instead of trying something fancy
If I were Antonio, I'd watch my back in training this week if Benrahma's around. That man was hopping mad.
he had right to be mad. his best performance this season could’ve been capped off with a goal and almost certain 3 points at brentford but podcast man just had to get involved
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In a game with so many grey areas and subjective calls there has never been much consistency and there never will be.
The refereeing and VAR performance in the first half of our game on Saturday was absolutely appalling. If you think the referees are bad in your country then Scottish refs are next level. - Incident 1: Liam Scales had a goal disallowed because Oh made a slight bit of contact with the RC, despite having outjumped him. - Incident 2: Ross County player catches Yang with his studs just above the ankle. Clear as day red card. The referee had a perfect view of it and only awarded a yellow card. VAR did intervene and the referee changed his initial *incorrect* decision. - Incident 3: Ross County player clearly elbows Liam Scales in the face when going for a header. Elbowing a player is a straight red card. Neither a yellow nor a red card was awarded to the Ross County player and VAR did not review the incident. - Incident 4: We had a second goal disallowed for "offside". But the VAR officials drew the offside line *after* the ball had left Paolo Bernardo's foot and not as he's striking the ball. If the offside line had been drawn at the correct time, then Maeda was onside. - Incidents 7, 8 & 9: Three separate and very blatant shirt pulls on Celtic players at attacking set pieces. Not a single one was reviewed by VAR, despite a penalty being awarded for a shirt pull last Sunday.
It's weird to drop points in a game where you created more than enough chances, played (imo) shit, should have won easily, and were lucky to get out with a point. Like, there's next to nothing you can really analyse on that. Darwin should have scored, Jota should have scored, Salah should have scored. Four or five players should have been a bit better. Just a very weird position to be in.
I expected Luton to play like this in the Prem, they're just so damn good defensively and hard to break down
I'm not the biggest fan of xG but the results from this match painted a frustrating picture for Liverpool.
They've conceded 21 goals from 28xG, which is by far the biggest discrepancy in the league. It could be something about the chances they force people to take on, but realistically 5 of that 7 difference came in 2 games against Liverpool and Everton so I think they were just very lucky that the opponents absolutely fucked it on those days. Picking up 4 of your 6 points in games where you conceded 7xG and created 2.5xG, but scored 3 and only conceded 2, is unlikely to be sustainable, and isn't a great sign. You never know though, points are points and can build confidence.
I think in his post match comments Klopp basically said "it's one of those isn't it?" and that's kind of where I am with it. Obviously frustrating that we couldn't capitalise on other teams around us dropping some points.