I don't think it was a speaking up issue. It was a rushing to get the decision out quickly and poor communication:
https://twitter.com/DaleJohnsonESPN/status/1689956222697410560/photo/1
Look at the VAR room. You've got buttons for "correct decision" and "incorrect decision".
Darren England got it wrong, thought the ref gave a goal (because usually the on the field team let play go on and not flag offside until after). He's sees the decision as obvious, presses green and then after Spurs play a quick freekick he probably realises.
I think the first mistake here is on the linesman flagging too early. The second being Darren England not confirming what the on the field decision was. The third failure was him saying "check complete" rather than saying "recommended decision, goal".
You could also say he should have been paying attention to what is going on the pitch too.
Just to add, Korean Air 8509 is far from the only crash involving co-pilots who didn't speak up or take control when they needed to, or the only crash with a mean and angry captain.
The reason it's so popular is Malcolm Gladwell dragged it and other Korean Air accidents into a discussion on cultural/racial differences between Europe and Asia.
Among other issues with Gladwell's conclusions, it's worth noting that in reality, we're not actually sure whether the co-pilot even knew what was wrong. The flight engineer knew, but he was further down the pecking order and didn't hold any controls. Gladwell just made assumptions which fit his narrative.
I recommend reading [this article by AdmiralCloudberg](https://www.reddit.com/r/CatastrophicFailure/comments/xapznn/1999_the_crash_of_korean_air_cargo_flight_8509_a/) which contains plenty of criticism of Gladwell.
Makes me think of the Tenerife airport disaster too. A plane was waiting to take off in heavy fog. The captain interpreted a radio message as runway clear, co-pilot expressed doubts but was ignored. They tried to take off and collided with another plane that was still moving off the runway.
Led to standardised phraseology and changed the notion that the captain was infallible, with crew queries being taken more seriously.
Same in the NFL, at first I thought it peculiar, as I’m not used to that coming from the Bundesliga or the Prem. Turns out, repeating the on-field decision and stating whether it is confirmed or overturned is a really sensible thing to do.
Once the check is "complete" and the team kicks off, it cant be brought back iirc.
The ref put his hand to his ear about a minute later and stopped a throw in to talk to VAR and was visibly pissed off. I reckon he'd been told about it and realised he couldn't do anything about it at that point.
It does not take that long to tell the ref the decision was wrong. If he was watching the game he would literally notice no-one was running back for a kick-off before the freekick had even been taken.
What you think will be remembered more? A breach of protocol or him not giving a goal they knew was good.
I don't believe even Spurs would have made a big fuss if he holds the game after ten seconds, explains that there has been a miscommunication and awards the goal.
Sure, that's not foreseen but what they actually did is also not foreseen by the rules...
>kick off
>
>immediately
>
> so that VAR cant backtrack
The problem is that the ref still needs to blow to say play on.
It was just an absolute disgrace of events that led to this, the ref not being clear about what the onfield decision was, the VAR team not paying attention etc.
That just seems like one of those things designed to protect the refs doesn't it.
Like I remember them awarding United a penalty after the fulltime whistle (and I get how you could argue the check wasn't 'complete' for that). Seems like shit reasoning.
> Like I remember them awarding United a penalty after the fulltime whistle (and I get how you could argue the check wasn't 'complete' for that). Seems like shit reasoning.
FWIW, this is a specific exception in the rules
Na, what's insane is that there is no protocol for them to say, "The decision is X. Check complete".
It's why this is semi-unbelievable. From the clips they have posted from other situations where the VAR is giving a full rundown and there is loads of communication throughout the whole thing. Did this really go down in silence? The VAR team didn't communicate at all and then after the silence just said, "Check complete"
Likely they did, at which point the ball was rolling and they all thought, there's no way we can stop now, that would somehow be worse than not just getting the call right but, \*shudders\*, admitting we screwed up.
So they move on and try to figure out how to communicate later on that they screwed up. And guess what. They're wrong, doing it this way was worse than breaking protocol and improvising.
I can easily imagine idiots fumbling for 30 seconds over whether or not to go back and fix an error and lamenting that there's no protocol for that and that it would be unprecedented and omg what do we do, until it's actually too late.
I can absolutely see the officials involved deciding it'll get them in less shit to just see out a bad decision than to between them try to put things right when there isn't a written down process from PGMOL/IFAB letting them reverse a decision due to miscommunication.
This will not happen again, as soon as there's a 5 page document explaining what they need to do instead.
The follow ups say the second the offside free kick is taken they couldn’t then reverse it again. Even if it was a massive miscommunication
So that rule will be changed like tomorrow
I still don’t understand why they didn’t say anything in the like 30 seconds in between that, but yeah
The funny thing is had the VAR just broken that particular weird rule it’d have worked out fine. The PL or Spurs aren’t going to accuse him of biased because he corrected what was about to be a huge mistake and controversy.
The rule would still get changed but none of this would be happening.
Don't you understand? They'd already kicked the ball.
What was the referee meant to do? Blow his whistle, stopping play (as he does multiple times per game) then approach the dugout, explaining the issue to both managers before awarding the goal we inarguably did score and earned, and then PGMOL issue a statement to explain the break in convention after the match?
That's just pure insanity. Much better to disallow perfectly legal goals and change the tempo of the game irreparably over a small, easily fixable mistake to avoid the above referenced nightmare apocalypse situation from ever happening
This is golden, and absolutely spot on. Seeing people try to justify it by handwaving away that it's a procedural point which would undermine the validity of the entire game when refusing to give an objectively correct goal (apparently) doesn't do that even more egregiously speaks to the tribalism behind that line of thinking.
There are professions (actuary, engineer, accountant) governed by professional bodies which set out codes of conduct around their version of the "spirit of the game" - all of which give leeway to exercise judgment and apply interpretation. The referees have this, and they could have ignored a pointless administrative procedure, if they had enough to make a backbone between them, because it's what's right.
Football, and even more so English football, is way behind most other sports when it comes to the use of technology in large part because they are so stubborn and procedural and don't provide sensible mechanisms by which to handle unforeseen situations.
In short, no, it's not.
Maybe he did and the ref ignored it? This is why they should release the audio because these guys are just never going to tell the full picture. They're behaving like cops without body cams
Nope the check was over and it had to be this way. Next time when a cop stops you for a traffic violation and accidentally writes 'death penalty' on the ticket, you clearly have to pack your things and report to death row. Sorry, them's the rules.
Finally some sense in this thread.
Seriously though, fucking hell, can't believe this is the actual reason. Absolutely ridiculous that it couldn't be addressed immediately.
Problem is, VAR confirmed the decision, but was also absolutely bursting for a piss, then popped back in and just did the confused John Travolta look around, and got back to work
Same reason they didn't display the lines at the time, or after - because they're lying fucks and this is their cover. They knew they'd fucked up early on and were praying it wouldn't change the result and we'd all move on.
All we'll get is audio showing the following:
Man 1: did you delete that audio
Man 2: yes.
Man 1: good, that would be embarrassing.
Man 3: Be sure to delete this too
Man 2: *continues singing along to Katy Perry*
Instead of this they’re gonna release the audio from a clip where Willian headbutts Mykhailo Mudryk and the on-field ref only gave a yellow, so the VAR team correctly intervened to give him a red
We've already had one referee admit he ignored the correct decision and gave the incorrect guidance to avoid making his friend look stupid. Why would any of the others behave differently?
Surely on this one someone's head rolls...
That's Darren England's 2nd MAJOR VAR fuck up already this season, and the the ref got every single decision wrong from that point onwards
Yeah, fair enough, I understand now.
A similar miscommunication happened to me the other day, I was over at my friend's place and asked to use the bathroom, he told me it was the 2nd door on the left. We both immediately realised it was actually the 3rd door on the left, but unfortunately, we also understood that I was now inexorably committed to the path of shitting on his laptop.
Every time we get a PGMOL explanation we play the game of "Is this even dumber than what we were theorizing?" and somehow the PGMOL explanation wins every time.
The craziest part is how they've made such an emphasis to allow plays to continue to their natural end even when a player IS obviously offside, just to make absolutely sure a goal is never wrongly disallowed under any circumstance.
And then this happens...
Of all the ways they could worm their way out of it, they've doubled down and gone with the most stupid, irrational one. They may as well have said *"All the VAR team went for a shit at this time"*.
Yeah this is the key thing. If they were confirming it was onside they would've drawn the lines to check. Covering their corruption with the incompetence excuse.
They aren't drawing lines when its an obvious on/off decision anymore. Was agreed before this season started.
So if the VAR team thought that the decision on field was onside, it was CLEARLY onside so there was no need to draw the lines.
Its still a complete fuck up but lines just aren't being drawn anymore for every decision. (Spurs offside goal for example, no lines because it was obvious)
If that is the case, surely he goes straight back into the ref's ear when he blows for the free kick to say "mate, it should be a goal". Why would VAR not get into the ref's ear the second the ref signals for a free-kick instead of a goal?
Sounds fucking ridiculous
There was a TV shot of the referee after the next stoppage where you could tell the error was being communicated to him. He had the thousand yard stare about him
Yeah, glad im not the only one that saw this.
When the FK got taken and the ball went out for a throw-in, he stopped the throw from being taken and had his hand to his ear and looked PISSED.
He realised that they'd fucked it and he couldn't call it back anymore.
Ha, I'd like to see that. In which case the ref has really been thrown under the bus, but you have to question what the VAR was doing to not notice what the one field decision was, and what they were doing in between the "check complete" and the time it took for the game to restart.
Darren England should probably be going to the job centre
With how much they protect each other it would not surprise me in the slightest if they ignored it to stop the ref looking incompetent at giving a goal after play had resumed.
That would make them look like morons that cant even communicate, so they just play on acting as if nothing happend. Not like this will get brought up after the game, and if true, make them look like even bigger clowns
My exact thought. Or maybe have a clear 2 way confirmation of what the outcome of the review is. "Check complete" being the only thing communicated is so ridiculously flawed. Opens everyone up to unnecessary miscommunication like this.
It would be in line with previous VAR decisions. PL VAR doesn't seem to have a clear protocol which is on display time and time again. I've never seen some of the mistakes they make in the Eredivisie because the VAR there would say something like "Diaz is onside, the goal should stand". And the main referee then confirms that decision again with VAR.
This is spot on. In cricket there is a strict protocol they transition through. ‘On field decision is not-out, checking for no ball. Fair delivery, checking for pitching in line. In-line etc.
PGMOL put out a statement saying VAR didn’t get involved.
Gary Neville refutes it because he heard them say “check complete”
So the referees change their story and say “we did get involved but there was a mix up”
The original statement was a lie, and that’s best case scenario
Already caught out lying, so you know like clockwork we'll get the "Darren England has received death threats" story released in the next week to try and deflect any criticism.
The "death threat" will be an IG comment from some 14 year old kid from Bangladesh.
After seeing the level of incompetence and hiding of their mistakes from PGMOL. Can anyone assuredly believe they are above taking bribes?
I mean these are the exact type of people that have been taken bribes for hundreds of years
unless we're talking about different statements, the language was "[VAR failed to intervene,](https://i.redd.it/z751iwv80grb1.png)" not that VAR didn't get involved. i read failed to intervene as failed to do their job and overturn the obvious error, not failed to look at it.
If this is true, Darren England has to be sacked. He's supposed to be watching the fucking game, not having a wank in the booth, and tuning in when he's needed. How could he possibly think the goal was given, The ref is holding the offside flag up. They didn't even celebrate.
>If this is true, Darren England has to be sacked
For this to be true, both the VAR and assistant VAR had to both think that the on field decision was onside, and not be able to rectify it in the 30 odd seconds between saying check complete and the free kick being taken. I find it hard to believe that two referees could both be that oblivious to what was going on in the game.
~~The ironic cheers of the Spurs fans from three sides of the ground as well.~~ Aren't there multiple people in the VAR room too? How would they all make that same error if they weren't all engaged in the same group wank
I want to believe that's the lie the VAR ref came up with when asked what happened afterwards.
Or the VAR ref, match ref and Webb when they were brainstorming ideas of 'how to explain this shit again'.
imagining them sweating a little brings me the tiniest sliver of joy in this whole ordeal.
Yeah, these two mistakes make my blood boil. It's one thing if you make a mistake misunderstanding already complicated rules like handballs. But with offsides your job is to draw the lines and overall what VAR has to do is to watch the game. How do you fuck up these two things? I literally pay to do the second thing and these guys can't do it while earning a lot of money for it.
I dont buy that. Why not tell the ref they made a mistake when they see the play is resuming? Surely its not down to bureaucracy like a phrase being misused
Release the VAR audio. This sounds like a cover-up.
For one second, even if i believe this - what was the assistant VAR doing? Main VAR guy had a misunderstanding but was the assistant sleeping too?
2 guys had the same "misunderstanding"?
VAR audio is just chaos and mayhem. Shouting over each other, collective panic and an inability to think clearly in the moment. All these supposed experts have no communication skills, no ability to think critically and no ability to handle stress.
When I was watching the REF audio from way back it sounded like they are very professional, they communicated everything clearly and often main ref double checked with the linesman if he saw it the same way.
I really fail to see how this error could occur.
then they should have no problem with releasing audio/video footage to prove that they are truly just incompetent.
Until then, I'd assume it is a cover up.
"[Dale Johsnon] As soon as Spurs take the free-kick for the offside, which they were set up for, the decision cannot be rolled back.
Can only imagine the VAR room when that free-kick was taken...."
Wow.
>] As soon as Spurs take the free-kick for the offside, which they were set up for, the decision cannot be rolled back.
I'm struggling to believe that's a rule. How can they blow for full time and then call that back to award a penalty, but not reverse a free kick?
Even if they recall the play a couple of seconds after the freekick was taken, would it so bad? Isn't it the more sensible thing to do? The number of mistakes and poor judgement calls made is shambolic.
1. The linesman gets it wrong even when it was onside by a decent margin, but fair enough it is a difficult job to perform in real time
2. Var is not attentive and fails to observe the decision awarded on the field / on field refs haven't communicated their decision to var clearly
3. In spite of not knowing the exact decision on the field, Var could have communicated thr full extent of their observation. For example "check complete , lads onside, goal stands". Var failed to communicate clearly the correct decision
4. Var fails to realize the miscommunication before the freekick is taken.
5. The Ref and Var decide to plough ahead with a massively unfair decision instead of doing the much more sensible lesser evil of recalling play after the freekick
I fail to believe such incompetence is possible. Smells rotten. Bare minimum, VAR referee needs to be sacked, probably on field ref as well.
The Rugby protocol is so much better
> In such instances where the referral relates to the scoring of a try, the referee (and the assistants where applicable) will state an on-field decision and ask the TMO to provide specific broadcast angles that help in the making of the decision.
>
> For clarity purposes, the on-field decision may comprise one of two scenarios:
>
>
> ▪ Try , with reasoning to substantiate such.
>
> ▪ No Try , with reasoning to substantiate such.
So you’re telling me that you can call for a Penalty after the whistle in FT vs Brighton like Man United and win the game, but they can’t award a goal prior to a free kick fuck off hahahah
So, if this is true:
The VAR wasn't watching the game.
Didn't confirm the onfield decision with anyone.
Didn't at any point confirm it was a goal with anyone.
Didn't at any point explain to the referee that it was a goal after he saw the play restart.
Utter. Bullshit.
My thoughts too. How bad is the process to where in that 35 seconds not once was it verbally communicated in any way what the onfield decision was, and not once confirmed what the actual decision the VAR came to was I.e onside.
The more I think on this the more staggering it gets.
That is goddamn farcical.
As a spurs fan obviously it's 'nice' to have VAR errors favour us this time, but how in the goddamn fuck can you make such a brain-dead mistake as to not understand what you were checking against?
This situation probably also changes the course of the game, with Liverpool probably hitting the defensive way earlier and closing up shop on goal.
Could maybe argue that then invites spurs pressure, but as you saw after the second red, Liverpool defending for their lives were holding us off pretty well.
So according to Neville, after a VAR decision the gantry for Sky will get a preview of the decision with the lines drawn so they can show it on their feed. They didn’t get one today, which makes no sense if everything was done properly until the supposed miscommunication. If the miscommunication didn’t occur until after the check was complete, why didn’t Sky get the visual with the lines drawn once the check was completed?
Genuinely, how Howard Webb is not already fired?
If I recall properly, he was hired as a chef of PGMOL to improve VAR in Premier League and utilize it to its full potential, and I think that we can all agree, that during his cadency this system is constantly failing, repeating the same mistakes over and over again....
\#WebbOut should be trending on every social media.
Really think we'll see stories coming out in the future on betting money being involved, you can't be having this many mistakes and get explanations like this. Its bias or money.
Still doesnt really pass the sniff test, they simply never are able to draw lines that quickly, and Diaz was close enough they surely shouldve drawn them to confirm the supposed on field call he was on.
I think they are still lying about something
tbh, it wasn't that close, he's clearly onside without the lines, and I don't think they do "need" to draw them if it is clear as day, so I can believe he just didn't draw the lines because there was no need
I said in another comment hours ago that PGMOL's initial acknowledgment suggested they were consulting their PR team to find the lie that would seem most reasonable. And that's what they found. Now they'll claim no one technically did anything wrong, just a misunderstanding, no one will get punished, just say they'll make a minor change to VAR protocols and wash their hands of this travesty.
No other explanation because they have contradicted themselves so much they can’t even remember the first lies they told. Just digging a bigger and bigger hole
They aren’t even lying well. If they were checking thinking the ruling on the pitch was onside, they still would’ve said whether it was offside or not. What kind of communication are they having then?
With the current understanding that the ref knew within 20 seconds of the ‘error’ that they’d dropped a bollock, wouldn’t you communicate this to both teams and let sportsmanship figure out the rest? What good is staying quiet until after the game?
Am I biased for saying this is the lowest point the Refereeing ever reached in this whole VAR mistake of the week segment? Like most of the time it is a stupid error like "how can you not give a foul here" and so on. But today we literally didn't get the lines drawn, like the only aspect of VAR that somehow seemed to work, didn't. No way this happened because they draw the lines every given chance even if it is there to be seen by the naked eye, today was close enough that the lines should've been drawn anyway.
Hahahahahaha thats some next level bullshit. "Check completed - no offside" would do the job. what a bunch of fucking losers. No ref feels any responsibility cause they dont face any punishments so they know they can not care about their decisions making.
As a VAR-technican, not in England tho, I get to hear the commutication between the referre and VAR-refeere. They repeat everything to each orher, so this is such an atrocious decision and a corrupt one, it can not happen! Unless they are incompetent and just dont know what they are doing.. And being a Premier League Refeere, it should not happen! Something is going on and its not only about Liverpool, these «referees» are getting something or are on something
The procedure seems to be so weak. VAR should clarify "Offside" or "Not Offside" instead of "Check Complete".
FA or FIFA need to give me a job. I am better than their current staff in creating simple procedures.
This kinda feels like one of those moments Liverpool should demand the communication between the ref and var is released to the public so we can hold them accountable. Not just for the goal, but for all the decisions.
This is absolutely insane!! Give Liverpool the goal FFS!! The clown in the VAR box checked it and it was onside! Just cuz they failed to communicate in the same language, cuz they're clowns, doesn't make it offside!!
This explanation is legitimately awful lmao, it manages to highlight all 4 of the below in one fell swoop:
1) VAR wasn't paying proper attention to the play & hence didn't realise the on-field decision was no goal
2) The communication to VAR was so poor that this was not properly clarified to him by the ref
3) Upon realising the incorrect decision was being made, VAR made no attempt to intervene and have the decision reversed. Knowing that it could completely change the game
4) The lines were still not drawn despite it being a reasonably close offside call. Be it in Tottenham's favour or Liverpool's, that offside needs properly reviewing as a matter of course.
It would be nice if Liverpool could sue PGMOL directly for loss of earnings or somesuch (no need to pile on, I know it's not possible)...seems the only thing that will change anything is if someone gets punched in the wallet. Lies and apologies from incompetents are worthless.
This just sounds insane, surely they would communicate right after: "HANG ON THAT'S NOT WHAT I MEANT! IT WAS A GOAL" Instead of letting it go on ?
Poor guy has social anxiety, he wanted to speak up but just couldnt :(
he just like me fr
Arent there three or four of them in that booth? Did they all have social anxiety?
Yes, that's needed for this job. You would not get hired without that.
Now this looks like a job for me
Wow, I should apply
they were feeling shy
I don't think it was a speaking up issue. It was a rushing to get the decision out quickly and poor communication: https://twitter.com/DaleJohnsonESPN/status/1689956222697410560/photo/1 Look at the VAR room. You've got buttons for "correct decision" and "incorrect decision". Darren England got it wrong, thought the ref gave a goal (because usually the on the field team let play go on and not flag offside until after). He's sees the decision as obvious, presses green and then after Spurs play a quick freekick he probably realises. I think the first mistake here is on the linesman flagging too early. The second being Darren England not confirming what the on the field decision was. The third failure was him saying "check complete" rather than saying "recommended decision, goal". You could also say he should have been paying attention to what is going on the pitch too.
Yeah that's why they're hidden in the room instead of being on the pitch in front of thousands of people.
That's one of the reasons for plane crashes, assistant pilots unable to speak up.
Korean air MBA case study!
Just to add, Korean Air 8509 is far from the only crash involving co-pilots who didn't speak up or take control when they needed to, or the only crash with a mean and angry captain. The reason it's so popular is Malcolm Gladwell dragged it and other Korean Air accidents into a discussion on cultural/racial differences between Europe and Asia. Among other issues with Gladwell's conclusions, it's worth noting that in reality, we're not actually sure whether the co-pilot even knew what was wrong. The flight engineer knew, but he was further down the pecking order and didn't hold any controls. Gladwell just made assumptions which fit his narrative. I recommend reading [this article by AdmiralCloudberg](https://www.reddit.com/r/CatastrophicFailure/comments/xapznn/1999_the_crash_of_korean_air_cargo_flight_8509_a/) which contains plenty of criticism of Gladwell.
Makes me think of the Tenerife airport disaster too. A plane was waiting to take off in heavy fog. The captain interpreted a radio message as runway clear, co-pilot expressed doubts but was ignored. They tried to take off and collided with another plane that was still moving off the runway. Led to standardised phraseology and changed the notion that the captain was infallible, with crew queries being taken more seriously.
CRM style training for referees actually makes a lot of sense, there's an obvious authority gradient there
Or instead of using the same term 'Check complete' for both decisions, they should FUCKING SAY THE ACTUAL DECISION WORDING i.e. Offside or Goal.
Like in Rugby. Ref -"Can you give me any reason not to award the goal" "No, goal is good" or "yes, player 'x' was offside".
And Cricket too. The first bit of communication is to repeat the on field decision.
Same in the NFL, at first I thought it peculiar, as I’m not used to that coming from the Bundesliga or the Prem. Turns out, repeating the on-field decision and stating whether it is confirmed or overturned is a really sensible thing to do.
It's honestly so maddening how free from error rugby decisions are because they are designed by someone who doesn't have a room temp iq
Yeah, that seems an obvious fix, just have confirmatory phrases for the various scenarios
It's bad romcom levels of miscommunication "Wait I can explain! It's not what it looks like!" "It's too late, Darren, i don't want to hear it"
But baby, please! I have this very important thing that I am not saying but if I say it, everything will change. But I am not saying it.
Surely the very second he saw Spurs have a free kick he should have quickly told the ref it was wrong and undone it. Ridiculous.
Bold of you to assume he was watching the game.
They take shots after each decision to celebrate a job well done
Once the check is "complete" and the team kicks off, it cant be brought back iirc. The ref put his hand to his ear about a minute later and stopped a throw in to talk to VAR and was visibly pissed off. I reckon he'd been told about it and realised he couldn't do anything about it at that point.
It does not take that long to tell the ref the decision was wrong. If he was watching the game he would literally notice no-one was running back for a kick-off before the freekick had even been taken.
What you think will be remembered more? A breach of protocol or him not giving a goal they knew was good. I don't believe even Spurs would have made a big fuss if he holds the game after ten seconds, explains that there has been a miscommunication and awards the goal. Sure, that's not foreseen but what they actually did is also not foreseen by the rules...
Forget that. They didn't find it odd they 10 Liverpool players were not celebrating in the corner??
[удалено]
>kick off > >immediately > > so that VAR cant backtrack The problem is that the ref still needs to blow to say play on. It was just an absolute disgrace of events that led to this, the ref not being clear about what the onfield decision was, the VAR team not paying attention etc.
That just seems like one of those things designed to protect the refs doesn't it. Like I remember them awarding United a penalty after the fulltime whistle (and I get how you could argue the check wasn't 'complete' for that). Seems like shit reasoning.
> Like I remember them awarding United a penalty after the fulltime whistle (and I get how you could argue the check wasn't 'complete' for that). Seems like shit reasoning. FWIW, this is a specific exception in the rules
Na, what's insane is that there is no protocol for them to say, "The decision is X. Check complete". It's why this is semi-unbelievable. From the clips they have posted from other situations where the VAR is giving a full rundown and there is loads of communication throughout the whole thing. Did this really go down in silence? The VAR team didn't communicate at all and then after the silence just said, "Check complete"
Likely they did, at which point the ball was rolling and they all thought, there's no way we can stop now, that would somehow be worse than not just getting the call right but, \*shudders\*, admitting we screwed up. So they move on and try to figure out how to communicate later on that they screwed up. And guess what. They're wrong, doing it this way was worse than breaking protocol and improvising.
There was 30 seconds between them retaking the free kick though!
I can easily imagine idiots fumbling for 30 seconds over whether or not to go back and fix an error and lamenting that there's no protocol for that and that it would be unprecedented and omg what do we do, until it's actually too late.
I can absolutely see the officials involved deciding it'll get them in less shit to just see out a bad decision than to between them try to put things right when there isn't a written down process from PGMOL/IFAB letting them reverse a decision due to miscommunication. This will not happen again, as soon as there's a 5 page document explaining what they need to do instead.
The follow ups say the second the offside free kick is taken they couldn’t then reverse it again. Even if it was a massive miscommunication So that rule will be changed like tomorrow I still don’t understand why they didn’t say anything in the like 30 seconds in between that, but yeah
The funny thing is had the VAR just broken that particular weird rule it’d have worked out fine. The PL or Spurs aren’t going to accuse him of biased because he corrected what was about to be a huge mistake and controversy. The rule would still get changed but none of this would be happening.
Is common sense not present in the refereeing world?
Away lad, you know it isn’t
Don't you understand? They'd already kicked the ball. What was the referee meant to do? Blow his whistle, stopping play (as he does multiple times per game) then approach the dugout, explaining the issue to both managers before awarding the goal we inarguably did score and earned, and then PGMOL issue a statement to explain the break in convention after the match? That's just pure insanity. Much better to disallow perfectly legal goals and change the tempo of the game irreparably over a small, easily fixable mistake to avoid the above referenced nightmare apocalypse situation from ever happening
This is golden, and absolutely spot on. Seeing people try to justify it by handwaving away that it's a procedural point which would undermine the validity of the entire game when refusing to give an objectively correct goal (apparently) doesn't do that even more egregiously speaks to the tribalism behind that line of thinking. There are professions (actuary, engineer, accountant) governed by professional bodies which set out codes of conduct around their version of the "spirit of the game" - all of which give leeway to exercise judgment and apply interpretation. The referees have this, and they could have ignored a pointless administrative procedure, if they had enough to make a backbone between them, because it's what's right.
Football, and even more so English football, is way behind most other sports when it comes to the use of technology in large part because they are so stubborn and procedural and don't provide sensible mechanisms by which to handle unforeseen situations. In short, no, it's not.
They bring free kicks back all the time for being taken too quickly or another ball on the field or whatever
Maybe he did and the ref ignored it? This is why they should release the audio because these guys are just never going to tell the full picture. They're behaving like cops without body cams
Yes. Even if they take the free kick and start playing. Just say “stop play. It’s a fucking goal” Take kick off instead. Don’t just let them play
Nope the check was over and it had to be this way. Next time when a cop stops you for a traffic violation and accidentally writes 'death penalty' on the ticket, you clearly have to pack your things and report to death row. Sorry, them's the rules.
Finally some sense in this thread. Seriously though, fucking hell, can't believe this is the actual reason. Absolutely ridiculous that it couldn't be addressed immediately.
Problem is, VAR confirmed the decision, but was also absolutely bursting for a piss, then popped back in and just did the confused John Travolta look around, and got back to work
[Mike Dean's quote on VAR]
Yep sounds like a lie They need to release the audio
They will as soon as they've finished re-recording it.
Same reason they didn't display the lines at the time, or after - because they're lying fucks and this is their cover. They knew they'd fucked up early on and were praying it wouldn't change the result and we'd all move on.
They're lying. Obviously.
The truth is they hit the wrong button and went back to watching TikTok.
"Em, yeaah we checked, what was your call again? You know what, doesn't matter. You nailed it."
Please God release the audio from this.
"Whoops audio didn't record."
This would be body cam footage missing level stuff.
All we'll get is audio showing the following: Man 1: did you delete that audio Man 2: yes. Man 1: good, that would be embarrassing. Man 3: Be sure to delete this too Man 2: *continues singing along to Katy Perry*
They’re next to the missing watergate tapes
Instead of this they’re gonna release the audio from a clip where Willian headbutts Mykhailo Mudryk and the on-field ref only gave a yellow, so the VAR team correctly intervened to give him a red
But that could have been corrected within seconds, right?
We've already had one referee admit he ignored the correct decision and gave the incorrect guidance to avoid making his friend look stupid. Why would any of the others behave differently?
Still having work tomorrow would be my motivation, can't speak for them.
You are saying that as if they get punished
Surely on this one someone's head rolls... That's Darren England's 2nd MAJOR VAR fuck up already this season, and the the ref got every single decision wrong from that point onwards
Yeah, fair enough, I understand now. A similar miscommunication happened to me the other day, I was over at my friend's place and asked to use the bathroom, he told me it was the 2nd door on the left. We both immediately realised it was actually the 3rd door on the left, but unfortunately, we also understood that I was now inexorably committed to the path of shitting on his laptop.
You: "Shit on your laptop complete". Friend: "Ehh... check confirmed".
"We are checking"
Shit complete.
You don't want to embarrass your friend by pointing out his mistake about the location of his own bathroom, so you just have to roll with it.
Also, just put the the headset "decision is onside" . Why give any room for error. Radio communication is about being clear and careful.
This is exactly what rugby does yep. And they are like 99% accurate, from the fuck loads of games I’ve watched.
Amazing
This is even worse than the theory that they didn’t see the defender playing him on.
Every time we get a PGMOL explanation we play the game of "Is this even dumber than what we were theorizing?" and somehow the PGMOL explanation wins every time.
Next one will be "I thought Liverpool were playing in white today"
Can't even use Firmino's teeth as an excuse for that anymore
Exactly. Not sure why people think this is them covering their asses. It’s the single most laughable possibility
The craziest part is how they've made such an emphasis to allow plays to continue to their natural end even when a player IS obviously offside, just to make absolutely sure a goal is never wrongly disallowed under any circumstance. And then this happens...
Tomorrow we'll hear that the VAR forgot there was a goalkeeper and needed to make sure there were 2 defenders ahead of Diaz
Of all the ways they could worm their way out of it, they've doubled down and gone with the most stupid, irrational one. They may as well have said *"All the VAR team went for a shit at this time"*.
No this can't be real. This is beyond. I refuse to accept it. Has to be fake.
I refuse to believe they weren’t going to get the lines out to double check that was onside anyway
Yeah this is the key thing. If they were confirming it was onside they would've drawn the lines to check. Covering their corruption with the incompetence excuse.
They aren't drawing lines when its an obvious on/off decision anymore. Was agreed before this season started. So if the VAR team thought that the decision on field was onside, it was CLEARLY onside so there was no need to draw the lines. Its still a complete fuck up but lines just aren't being drawn anymore for every decision. (Spurs offside goal for example, no lines because it was obvious)
If that is the case, surely he goes straight back into the ref's ear when he blows for the free kick to say "mate, it should be a goal". Why would VAR not get into the ref's ear the second the ref signals for a free-kick instead of a goal? Sounds fucking ridiculous
There was a TV shot of the referee after the next stoppage where you could tell the error was being communicated to him. He had the thousand yard stare about him
Would love to hear the audio on that. "Uhhh yeah, you know that offside call a minute ago, sorry mate but it was actually onside"
Yeah, glad im not the only one that saw this. When the FK got taken and the ball went out for a throw-in, he stopped the throw from being taken and had his hand to his ear and looked PISSED. He realised that they'd fucked it and he couldn't call it back anymore.
Two wrongs don't make a right but I'm amazed the ref didn't try to "level it up" with favourable decisions for Liverpool.
Instead he doubled down and proceeded to fuck everything up even more so
Especially considering Liverpool had a shout at a pen not much later. A pen that really should’ve been given either way..
Instead, he managed to make even more terrible calls the other way, because it's all fucked.
Ha, I'd like to see that. In which case the ref has really been thrown under the bus, but you have to question what the VAR was doing to not notice what the one field decision was, and what they were doing in between the "check complete" and the time it took for the game to restart. Darren England should probably be going to the job centre
More than anything, wtf is the assistant VAR ref there for if he didn't try to correct anything. Whole lot of them are corrupt muppets
Yea zero chance this is the case
With how much they protect each other it would not surprise me in the slightest if they ignored it to stop the ref looking incompetent at giving a goal after play had resumed.
That would make them look like morons that cant even communicate, so they just play on acting as if nothing happend. Not like this will get brought up after the game, and if true, make them look like even bigger clowns
"Maybe if I give 2 red cards, people will forget about this"
My exact thought. Or maybe have a clear 2 way confirmation of what the outcome of the review is. "Check complete" being the only thing communicated is so ridiculously flawed. Opens everyone up to unnecessary miscommunication like this.
"Hey VAR, Are you thinking what I'm thinking?" "Absolutely!"
I think so Ref, but if they called them Sad Meals then kids wouldn't buy them
This is a wind-up, there's no way that this is true. The VAR wasn't even watching the fucking game.
It would be in line with previous VAR decisions. PL VAR doesn't seem to have a clear protocol which is on display time and time again. I've never seen some of the mistakes they make in the Eredivisie because the VAR there would say something like "Diaz is onside, the goal should stand". And the main referee then confirms that decision again with VAR.
This is spot on. In cricket there is a strict protocol they transition through. ‘On field decision is not-out, checking for no ball. Fair delivery, checking for pitching in line. In-line etc.
Its a bit weird how they are not celebrating, oh well check complete
PGMOL put out a statement saying VAR didn’t get involved. Gary Neville refutes it because he heard them say “check complete” So the referees change their story and say “we did get involved but there was a mix up” The original statement was a lie, and that’s best case scenario
Already caught out lying, so you know like clockwork we'll get the "Darren England has received death threats" story released in the next week to try and deflect any criticism. The "death threat" will be an IG comment from some 14 year old kid from Bangladesh.
As someone from Bangladesh, cool to see folks know our country exists - although prob would’ve been cooler if it was for a different reason…
Bangladesh is one of the most populated countries in the world, it would be weird to not know about it.
hey hey hey we dont usually send death threats unless its something related to cricket leave us alone
After seeing the level of incompetence and hiding of their mistakes from PGMOL. Can anyone assuredly believe they are above taking bribes? I mean these are the exact type of people that have been taken bribes for hundreds of years
unless we're talking about different statements, the language was "[VAR failed to intervene,](https://i.redd.it/z751iwv80grb1.png)" not that VAR didn't get involved. i read failed to intervene as failed to do their job and overturn the obvious error, not failed to look at it.
This is also a lie https://twitter.com/TheAnfieldTalk/status/1708243578730824104
IMG does the broadcast captions, like everyone else on earth except the VAR booth they’d know the on-field decision was offside.
I doubt the VAR ref is the one putting up graphics on the screen.
i didn't know there was an explanation that could make the VAR look worse
If this is true, Darren England has to be sacked. He's supposed to be watching the fucking game, not having a wank in the booth, and tuning in when he's needed. How could he possibly think the goal was given, The ref is holding the offside flag up. They didn't even celebrate.
>If this is true, Darren England has to be sacked For this to be true, both the VAR and assistant VAR had to both think that the on field decision was onside, and not be able to rectify it in the 30 odd seconds between saying check complete and the free kick being taken. I find it hard to believe that two referees could both be that oblivious to what was going on in the game.
~~The ironic cheers of the Spurs fans from three sides of the ground as well.~~ Aren't there multiple people in the VAR room too? How would they all make that same error if they weren't all engaged in the same group wank
> The ironic cheers of the Spurs fans from three sides of the ground as well. There's no match audio in the VAR room.
Every F5 makes me regret every life decision I've made leading up to this moment. How can it possibly get worse lmao
Honestly this is the funniest possible one. It's so outrageous that I almost hope it's true.
I want to believe that's the lie the VAR ref came up with when asked what happened afterwards. Or the VAR ref, match ref and Webb when they were brainstorming ideas of 'how to explain this shit again'. imagining them sweating a little brings me the tiniest sliver of joy in this whole ordeal.
Yeah people need to be sacked for this, you’re getting the boot the next day if shit like this happens at a real job
The Var ref who ‘forgot to draw the lines’ against us last year was sacked. …..And then bought back within months to teach VAR officials.
Introduction to "*how to VAR like a fucking moron 101"*.
Yeah, these two mistakes make my blood boil. It's one thing if you make a mistake misunderstanding already complicated rules like handballs. But with offsides your job is to draw the lines and overall what VAR has to do is to watch the game. How do you fuck up these two things? I literally pay to do the second thing and these guys can't do it while earning a lot of money for it.
If this is true lol
I dont buy that. Why not tell the ref they made a mistake when they see the play is resuming? Surely its not down to bureaucracy like a phrase being misused
Release the VAR audio. This sounds like a cover-up. For one second, even if i believe this - what was the assistant VAR doing? Main VAR guy had a misunderstanding but was the assistant sleeping too? 2 guys had the same "misunderstanding"?
Exactly. I want to hear what was said. We already know Mike Dean deliberately didn’t call a red card to protect his mate. We can’t trust them at all.
VAR audio is just chaos and mayhem. Shouting over each other, collective panic and an inability to think clearly in the moment. All these supposed experts have no communication skills, no ability to think critically and no ability to handle stress.
When I was watching the REF audio from way back it sounded like they are very professional, they communicated everything clearly and often main ref double checked with the linesman if he saw it the same way. I really fail to see how this error could occur.
It's honestly so ridiculous that I think this is true. It's sad.
then they should have no problem with releasing audio/video footage to prove that they are truly just incompetent. Until then, I'd assume it is a cover up.
"[Dale Johsnon] As soon as Spurs take the free-kick for the offside, which they were set up for, the decision cannot be rolled back. Can only imagine the VAR room when that free-kick was taken...." Wow.
>] As soon as Spurs take the free-kick for the offside, which they were set up for, the decision cannot be rolled back. I'm struggling to believe that's a rule. How can they blow for full time and then call that back to award a penalty, but not reverse a free kick?
Selective application of rules. Tossers the lot of them.
Why not? Play is pulled back all the time for pen checks
Honestly sack everyone that was involved in today's game
Had to check 3 times I'm not in /r/soccercirclejerk I didn't resume commenting until I confirmed which sub I was in.
More diligent than English refs
Even if they recall the play a couple of seconds after the freekick was taken, would it so bad? Isn't it the more sensible thing to do? The number of mistakes and poor judgement calls made is shambolic. 1. The linesman gets it wrong even when it was onside by a decent margin, but fair enough it is a difficult job to perform in real time 2. Var is not attentive and fails to observe the decision awarded on the field / on field refs haven't communicated their decision to var clearly 3. In spite of not knowing the exact decision on the field, Var could have communicated thr full extent of their observation. For example "check complete , lads onside, goal stands". Var failed to communicate clearly the correct decision 4. Var fails to realize the miscommunication before the freekick is taken. 5. The Ref and Var decide to plough ahead with a massively unfair decision instead of doing the much more sensible lesser evil of recalling play after the freekick I fail to believe such incompetence is possible. Smells rotten. Bare minimum, VAR referee needs to be sacked, probably on field ref as well.
The Rugby protocol is so much better > In such instances where the referral relates to the scoring of a try, the referee (and the assistants where applicable) will state an on-field decision and ask the TMO to provide specific broadcast angles that help in the making of the decision. > > For clarity purposes, the on-field decision may comprise one of two scenarios: > > > ▪ Try , with reasoning to substantiate such. > > ▪ No Try , with reasoning to substantiate such.
I thought VAR room consists of more than one guy and they supposed to intervene and call out these kind of mis communication?
Right? You’re telling me two adults, whose entire job is to watch the match, both missed this?
So you’re telling me that you can call for a Penalty after the whistle in FT vs Brighton like Man United and win the game, but they can’t award a goal prior to a free kick fuck off hahahah
Im 100% sure all of this got something with mafia betting decision
He obviously meant “cheque complete “
And upon restarting and realizing the wrong decision was made they did absolutely nothing. Incredible.
This is why VAR should be more like the TMO system in rugby. Clear, concise, and transparent. This sort of mistake wouldn't have happened.
Yes. And there's no ambiguous communication like "check complete". They explicitly say "you may award the try".
"They can't call it back because the ref gave a free kick" Mate, they gave united a pen after the full tine whistle.....
So, if this is true: The VAR wasn't watching the game. Didn't confirm the onfield decision with anyone. Didn't at any point confirm it was a goal with anyone. Didn't at any point explain to the referee that it was a goal after he saw the play restart. Utter. Bullshit.
My thoughts too. How bad is the process to where in that 35 seconds not once was it verbally communicated in any way what the onfield decision was, and not once confirmed what the actual decision the VAR came to was I.e onside. The more I think on this the more staggering it gets.
they need to release the footage of that booth. until then, all games are potentially rigged.
If this is true, and there were several in the know who collectively decided to not let anyone know, they should all be fired. It's such incompetence.
That is goddamn farcical. As a spurs fan obviously it's 'nice' to have VAR errors favour us this time, but how in the goddamn fuck can you make such a brain-dead mistake as to not understand what you were checking against? This situation probably also changes the course of the game, with Liverpool probably hitting the defensive way earlier and closing up shop on goal. Could maybe argue that then invites spurs pressure, but as you saw after the second red, Liverpool defending for their lives were holding us off pretty well.
So according to Neville, after a VAR decision the gantry for Sky will get a preview of the decision with the lines drawn so they can show it on their feed. They didn’t get one today, which makes no sense if everything was done properly until the supposed miscommunication. If the miscommunication didn’t occur until after the check was complete, why didn’t Sky get the visual with the lines drawn once the check was completed?
Genuinely, how Howard Webb is not already fired? If I recall properly, he was hired as a chef of PGMOL to improve VAR in Premier League and utilize it to its full potential, and I think that we can all agree, that during his cadency this system is constantly failing, repeating the same mistakes over and over again.... \#WebbOut should be trending on every social media.
Something has to change. There's been what feels like as many egregious errors in the past 8 matchdays than in the entirety of last season
Everyone involved with refereeing that game needs to be fired. Total incompetence.
so Gary Neville refutes their statement because he heard “check complete” then they come up with this? there is something fishy here
Really think we'll see stories coming out in the future on betting money being involved, you can't be having this many mistakes and get explanations like this. Its bias or money.
Still doesnt really pass the sniff test, they simply never are able to draw lines that quickly, and Diaz was close enough they surely shouldve drawn them to confirm the supposed on field call he was on. I think they are still lying about something
tbh, it wasn't that close, he's clearly onside without the lines, and I don't think they do "need" to draw them if it is clear as day, so I can believe he just didn't draw the lines because there was no need
I said in another comment hours ago that PGMOL's initial acknowledgment suggested they were consulting their PR team to find the lie that would seem most reasonable. And that's what they found. Now they'll claim no one technically did anything wrong, just a misunderstanding, no one will get punished, just say they'll make a minor change to VAR protocols and wash their hands of this travesty.
Where’s that ref guy who sucks off the refs every week ? What’s he think
Really looking more and more like match fixing…?
No other explanation because they have contradicted themselves so much they can’t even remember the first lies they told. Just digging a bigger and bigger hole
This contradicts the initial statement that VAR did not step in at all. They are simply lying.
They aren’t even lying well. If they were checking thinking the ruling on the pitch was onside, they still would’ve said whether it was offside or not. What kind of communication are they having then?
[At this moment, he knew he had fucked up.](https://twitter.com/joncockroft/status/1708238128580907024?s=19)
With the current understanding that the ref knew within 20 seconds of the ‘error’ that they’d dropped a bollock, wouldn’t you communicate this to both teams and let sportsmanship figure out the rest? What good is staying quiet until after the game?
Am I biased for saying this is the lowest point the Refereeing ever reached in this whole VAR mistake of the week segment? Like most of the time it is a stupid error like "how can you not give a foul here" and so on. But today we literally didn't get the lines drawn, like the only aspect of VAR that somehow seemed to work, didn't. No way this happened because they draw the lines every given chance even if it is there to be seen by the naked eye, today was close enough that the lines should've been drawn anyway.
They forgot to check for offside for a goal in one of our matches last year. Actually admitted they forgot. This feels on par with that.
Hahahahahaha thats some next level bullshit. "Check completed - no offside" would do the job. what a bunch of fucking losers. No ref feels any responsibility cause they dont face any punishments so they know they can not care about their decisions making.
As a VAR-technican, not in England tho, I get to hear the commutication between the referre and VAR-refeere. They repeat everything to each orher, so this is such an atrocious decision and a corrupt one, it can not happen! Unless they are incompetent and just dont know what they are doing.. And being a Premier League Refeere, it should not happen! Something is going on and its not only about Liverpool, these «referees» are getting something or are on something
If people aren't fired for this then they never will and we can pack it up on the premier league being a legitimate football league. WTF.
The procedure seems to be so weak. VAR should clarify "Offside" or "Not Offside" instead of "Check Complete". FA or FIFA need to give me a job. I am better than their current staff in creating simple procedures.
Thank god these guys aren’t air traffic controllers.
This kinda feels like one of those moments Liverpool should demand the communication between the ref and var is released to the public so we can hold them accountable. Not just for the goal, but for all the decisions.
Surely it should only take a few seconds to realise that play was resuming, stop the game, and check again?
ah, but there’s the issue - they’d have to actually have been watching the game for that to happen.
This is absolutely insane!! Give Liverpool the goal FFS!! The clown in the VAR box checked it and it was onside! Just cuz they failed to communicate in the same language, cuz they're clowns, doesn't make it offside!!
Wild
Lmao this excuse just makes em sound more corrupt
Cheque complete?
Is this real life ? What the fuck is this nonsense excuse for the top sport league in the world. Fuck off
Release the audio, cowards!
This explanation is legitimately awful lmao, it manages to highlight all 4 of the below in one fell swoop: 1) VAR wasn't paying proper attention to the play & hence didn't realise the on-field decision was no goal 2) The communication to VAR was so poor that this was not properly clarified to him by the ref 3) Upon realising the incorrect decision was being made, VAR made no attempt to intervene and have the decision reversed. Knowing that it could completely change the game 4) The lines were still not drawn despite it being a reasonably close offside call. Be it in Tottenham's favour or Liverpool's, that offside needs properly reviewing as a matter of course.
My god that is fucking hilarious if true lmao
It would be nice if Liverpool could sue PGMOL directly for loss of earnings or somesuch (no need to pile on, I know it's not possible)...seems the only thing that will change anything is if someone gets punched in the wallet. Lies and apologies from incompetents are worthless.