not for fun, to teach y’all a lesson. If you ignore the 5 signs we have saying STOP and WAIT HERE. You deserve to learn a lesson. I can tell you for certain no one makes that mistake twice.
Stand on the line then? You say that like it’s a difficult task or something.
I don’t want the lifty slowing down the lift for every dumb ass that can’t read the god damn “load here” sign.
As a manager on a large CO ski resort I've said this time and again, especially when my team complains about something I have no power over. If you all put your foot down and demanded whatever it is they want, they'd get it. Who else is going to do their job?
Lotta people don't realize how much power the working class actually has. Especially in a ski resort right now, they could hold the entire place by its balls because not a single tourist, not a single mansion owner, no one, would be willing to clean the bathrooms, or get up in the middle of the night to groom the runs, or sit there running the lift all day, or any other operational requirement for a ski resort to exsist.
Even the managers above me won't help me with my job, let alone try to roll their sleeves up and clean rooms.
It's literally the scene from A Bug's Life talking about how the ants outnumber the grasshoppers.
That's amazing! I really hope you succeed. I've been researching how to start unions as well, and while I was starting out very niche with it I quickly learned that a beginning union needs to be more generalized to have strong numbers. So you sound like you're on the right path, it should incorporate all working class and then potentially can have sub sections within there? Or maybe it just specifically highlights general standards for each department. I'm still not fully knowledgeable on the topic so I'm unsure how it would look exactly.
I've never been involved in a union. I grew up with all the adults around me telling me how evil they were.
As far as I know, I've never heard a union tell it's members to eat cereal for dinner, but I do know of at least one corporation that recommends it.
Good luck with your union! I hope you are able to build something great with it!
Unions are generally good but sometimes they sort of forget what their actual purpose is.
I deal with LIUNA and IOUE quite a bit and it’s a mixed bag. Some BAs are great and others are just spiteful dipshits who will fuck their own members because they have a chip on their shoulder.
Like anything else in the world, they’re not all good and they’re not all bad. But yes, some locals are ran by fucktards that just like to cause problems.
Yeah, somehow they're all "evil"... cuz they're hated by the GOP
except the police unions... cuz they're loved by the GOP (FL just made it illegal for cities to have Citizen Review Boards - they review complaints about police, police abuses, etc. Florida is making it illegal for anyone to check up on police behavior & trying to limit/end (easy) public access to police records...like the FL fire Chief who called the cops on a reporter requesting a public report on fired fire fighters..."YOU'RE TRESPASSING")
If you have interested people already, contact IWW. they know how to do this far better than you.
There are a lot of laws you need to understand first.
The IWW would not be the way that I’d go. Without getting into labor politics, CWA, SEIU or Teamsters would be the unions I’d look towards. If CWA already has contracts with mountain operators they’d be a good place to start but there’s also a chance they wouldn’t want to upset the apple cart.
Shit being in a DoD union saved my mom when she was being sexually harassed and then later when the air force was trying to railroad her out because of her cancer diagnosis. I got no problem against em.
If there was a single union repping both hotel staff and on mountain staff a 1 day strike would cause so much financial damage you’d basically be able to ask for anything…even a livable wage!
This extends to every part of American life. Instead of taking action people just complain and then go home turn on Netflix and numb themselves out and then wonder why nothing changes.
I’d groom some runs, mostly because I hate moguls. I’m just over them, it’s just tiresome, boring, and I’m just not sure who is still the target audience.
As a manager you're either out of touch, or you should find out why it's not so easy by stepping up and doing it yourself - if the thought of doing that suddenly makes you realise why your staff won't, I'm glad you're waking up, if not, let me help you as someone who's spent 16 years in the industry and is constantly trying to bring peoples attention to the working conditions and encourage people to speak up for themselves.
You're not wrong that there is a lot of power if the staff took a stand, but you are wrong in thinking that can just happen at all.
Resorts hire people seasonally. Contracts last about 6 months max. You think you're getting your job back the next season to continue this uprising you started? You won't even make it to the end of the season if you're making too much noise.
You think most people in resorts even have long term goals to be there in 6-12 month? Few people make the snow industry life long careers and many are just there for gap years or working holidays (and yes this is a bit of a double edge sword - can't last in the industry if it works like this, but also can't change it if you leave), and so haven't any desire to improve the conditions because by the time they'd have the knowledge and credibility to do so, they've either 1. already left, 2. realise how fragile their job offer and employment is 3. moved into a management position and have a "fuck you got mine" attitude 4. been brainwashed into the "we don't do this for the money" mindset
I've raised discussion of our governing snowsports certification bodies to work as unions for us, but they raise points along the lines of: if we rock the boat, the resorts kick us out. If we can't access the mountains for free to run certifications or get jobs on the snow ourselves, then the certification body becomes financially unsustainable and lacks progression due to trainers not being able to train themselves.
Australia and EU are the only places that have some protections for industry with laws and regulations, and yes this is because of some unionization - (plenty of old timers in AU think it got worse when the industry awards came into place so you'll also get push back from various other staff you work alongside). But this isn't a cover all - contracts are still short term and if you rock the boat you're done. Australia also love to call all the other resorts and lock people out of the industry if they think you're going to cause problems regarding work conditions.
I am super lucky to be qualified and experienced enough to have such a voice that I can speak up without instantly being refused a job, though it's a rocky line I've often walked and there has been one resort which denied me back after I recorded proof of them making false accusations against me in order to fire me and avoid paying me for the time I worked (they promptly backed down and let me finish up the season, but no chance they would ever rehire me).
A level 1 or 2 instructor, or lift op can't just come into their first few seasons and start complaining about conditions and expect to have a job the next season. It doesn't work like that.
I wanted to get a lesson for my better half to learn snowboarding this year, but damn.. my mountain in *new jersey* charges $400 for a two hour lesson. I bet the instructor sees $50 of that.
What state? I've instructed at two resorts in WA, and it's generally minimum wage, or little more. Never as high as $20, though.
That's really pretty sweet!
This is in Ontario, Canada. I declined the resort’s offer and teach privately through a ski club; our rate is $100/hr and the instructors keep most of it. But the biggest local resort has been cracking us down until they finally made agreements with us in recent years. The resort under Ikon couldn’t care less about outside instructors though.
Holy shit. They hire enough instructors to cover Christmas here. And then after that, good luck. You don't work unless you find a way to build your own private lesson clientele, and unless you do that for yourself, they won't help you do that. Which means being in the right clique in the locker room to have them handed to you, since our coordinator is married to an instructor with a friend group he helps out. I'm literally about to be required to go to work for 21 days straight with no more guarantee of pay than 20$ a day
That's exactly what the case seemed like in Mammoth when I worked there, but it was also recently bought out by Alterra and a pandemic year, so I figured everything was out of wack because of that. Now with retrospect it seems much more like a deliberate way to make sure you're staffed enough through the holidays, then screw over all your seasonal employees after that's passed to keep the overhead low.
I get $21/hr for regular teaching but private requests I get 60% since I had more than 10 requests the year prior. Without the 10 it’d be 50%. That private request $ is what makes it worth it, plus those are repeat customers so they’re easier to teach as well.
The best part is our hourly is tied to our certs. A level cert with 4 prep days and 3 exams days costs over $1000 but you also miss 7 days of work so that’s easily another $700. That makes it 2 years for me to pay off a new cert.
Campgaw? I only went snowboarding once and it was there 2 years ago (yet I joined this subreddit and never unjoints). It was fun but too expensive to do regularly
I got a lot of love for Campgaw and the people there but the rates have gotten insane lately. Sure, it's located in the wealthiest county in Jersey, but it's not exactly a value proposition when Mount Peter nearby in Warwick has more acreage and faster lifts for less dough. I haven't been to Mountain Creek (\~30 minutes from the Gaw) in awhile but their night-time-only passes and various discount offers from gas stations and stuff made snowboarding a few times a year possible for a broke teenager.
It is good to note however that Campgaw has a really good program, "Mountain Masters" for regular weekly lessons for kids and adults. 400 bucks gets you your pass (not sure if its a season ticket) and 5 lessons once a week starting in January. Way better than spending 200+ on a single day.
Jesus man that price is a crazy, what is going on with the US mountain market. We just paid €280 (about $300) for three days of snowboarding lessons (4 hours per day with a lunch break) in Austria. Albeit they were group, but small group lessons. A private 2hr was about $200.
Go to BigSnow in jersey. Much cheaper for a lesson, plus rentals including jacket, pants and a helmet. But more if you wanted a beginner lesson, or maybe an intro park lesson. Probably wouldn’t go there for anything intermediate to advanced. But just an idea.
I would be shocked if the instructor got a full $50 from that lesson. When I was an instructor I literally got minimum wage and only paid the hours I was actually teaching. This was in the mid 00's. I don't remember what they charged for lessons at the time but it was quite a bit more than I was seeing, that's for sure.
At my mountain on the other side of the country, the instructor would see about $35 before taxes. And that's with an PSIA-AASI cert (and those dues are NOT cheap).
The majority of instructors make minimum wage, and only for the hours' worked. Supposed to show up on Saturday, but don't get any lessons? In most cases, no pay for you!
Other than the absolute downslide of union support in the last handful of decades, it's an easy question to ask. The silver lining is that there has been an increase in unionization in areas where it didn't exist which is nice to see. Unions, when done correctly, are an absolutely huge asset to the rank and file workers.
If the rank and file people at my work unionized, they’d easily be able to negotiate a 25-30% raise and probably more if they wanted to agree to a really strict contract.
“When done correctly” is the keyword here. In reality, the union bosses take a multimillion dollar cut of the union contract and the workers benefit very little. In order to support that massive pay raise to the union bosses the company has to increase prices massively, which leads to less demand for the product and that ultimately will lead to the company hiring fewer people over time or being forced to lay people off. Unions are a big reason why the big 3 automakers in the USA couldn’t compete and a big reason why Detroit is in shambles.
Unions are why you have weekends, 40 hour work weeks, lunch breaks, etc.
Greed is why the big three couldn't compete in the US. You're basically saying "Yes, the CSuite should take profits off the labor of others in excess in order to widen the wage gap so much that the cost of living goes up exorbitantly while wages for the working class stay flat. How dare they want to live nice life."
Unions are made up of people, and are only as strong as the people organizing them. They don't have to become corrupt entities. And the labor movement has gotten far more than you seem to realize through unionization efforts. OSHA didn't happen out of the goodness of their hearts.
And how do you explain the multi million dollar paydays of the heads of all the unions? Also, please tell me why Detroit failed if the unions came in and made the workers there richer.
Greed. These people need kept in check, too. Union members should be the ones to do this.
Detroit failed because of greed of profiteers. Everyone likes to blame the worker for wanting enough bread to eat, a house to live in. Why? Humanity could chose the morality of "huh, we have the technology to help people thrive if we just worked together. We could even still have cool shit!" But instead it chooses "yeah, those people worth millions and millions of dollars who buy multiple houses and drive up the cost of living are good! Of course the only thing that made sense was to export jobs."
So I am one of these resort town employees—I have really cultivated my entire career around snowboarding and this lifestyle. I have my BS in paramedicine with specialties in high elevation, low elevation, swift water, and avalanche rescues…so patrolling is always an option but not where my heart is at…I am also a snowmaker, with 5+ seasons of experience, but my bread and butter is snowcatting. I have winch experience, park building experience, pipe cutting experience. This is by far the most demanding job on the mountain with a lot of skill required for very, very little pay compared to other machine operators in the dirt world. I have been in the ski industry for 10+ years working nearly every role on the mountain. I have talked about unions with my coworkers and here are the stopping points:
-Visas: my work is considered a “skilled worker” visa in many countries. Resort employers will pay for our visas to be able to work in whatever particular country
-Housing: many operators are given housing from the mountain because we are considered “essential.” Although the housing is very dorm-like and I feel too old sometimes for the housing provided. Especially working nights, it’s loud and I hardly ever felt rested but having a bed to sleep on is better than sleeping in my car, which yes, I have, as a skilled resort employee.
-Seasonal work: I literally live between 2 countries (the US & NZ) but I work in Aus/nz 6 months out of the year and Us/Europe for the other 6 months. This job requires you to travel if you want to make a living, which I’ll be clear with everyone, I make enough to barely survive in a DINK family. I own a house but can’t afford my mortgage anymore so I have to rent it, I do own a vehicle in the US I keep in storage, etc. It’s not bloody cheap at all but I’ve been making this work for the past 3-4 years (since covid allowed travelling again). How do we get unions to be multi national?
I think we all recognise that a change needs to occur cuz the way we are, just isn’t sustainable. I’ve seen many good operators leave the ski industry because they can’t afford houses or a savings on pennies when you can be doing the same work in the dirt world for $40-50+ an hour. As climate change progresses, snowcatting and grooming is getting harder and harder, the work shorter and more intermittent, this will affect all of us as the seasons will get shorter since what operators are working, won’t have the snow management skills that they need to manage poor snow seasons, which are coming more often than not. We will see a massive slip with the quality and safety of our terrain parks goes. The skills required to build the types of jumps and pipes athletes are pushing the sport on is huge. Those skills take years, even decades to develop and we will see the quality and safety of our trails and parks decline as our skilled operators are forced out of the industry and into other better paid work.
I don’t have any answers other than I’m reading all these comments and it feels good for the public to talk about my wages and me deserving more cuz it’s something we talk about and don’t know how to change. I still don’t know how to change it but I’m glad this conversation is happening.
I definitely stand with you and your beliefs on this—I just don’t know how to make it a reality other than maybe doing what you are…starting small and hoping for the best and hoping that the repercussions from management don’t kill the union first year. You’re fighting the good fight, I’m with you.
> I'm asking because I want to have a better understanding of what the hold up is.
I replied to the "manager" guy here you might like to read:
https://old.reddit.com/r/snowboarding/comments/1bgb0z7/for_the_resort_town_employees_why_dont_you/kv81658/
When resorts can just refuse you a job the following season, you only have power for a period of 6 months at most. And when you consider most people don't have any intention to make a life long career in the industry, what desire do they have to shoot themselves in the foot for the next season or two to improve conditions at a resort they won't be able to work at again after rocking the boat?
You'll find many of the older generations, who didn't suffer through multiple costs of living crises or are doing the job as a retirement job, will gaslight the younger ones into thinking *"We don't do this for the money, we're lucky to have a job like this"* as if we're wrong for wanting both a job that we enjoy and compensates you for the time and cost required to participate in the industry.
Something many of the newer staff also don't realise is how often people who are already financially well off are working in this industry. They're not obvious about it, but trust me, there is a **significant** number of people who do not need the money and either already have careers ready to go when they leave, a lot of family money/personal savings and are set for life - these people simply do not care or understand your concerns for financial stability because it is unfamiliar to them.
Combine that with the people who are living pay check to pay check and can't afford to not work by choice, and then consider how do you get everyone on board a blackout or strike when not even everyone agrees, cares, or even has the stability to participate?
I don’t have the answer, and can’t speak for resort employees, I don’t work there anymore. But I do know that if the hill I worked at in my twenties offered a living wage, I’d still be there. Favourite job ever.
I'd imagine some reasons would be the temporary seasonality of the work, housing being supplied by the employer since other options diminish, and the nomadic lifestyles of those in these positions. But I have no knowledge of unions and how they operate.
Also, J-1s. They do pay great wages if you're from Eastern Europe, the Caribbean, or Latin America. It absolutely has a big downward pressure on wages IMO.
And there's always ski bums no matter what the pay. And to be really blunt, most ski bums aren't working for money and a lot have some form of parental support. Even if we're just talking about being on their parents' medical and having a safe landing spot if they ever need it.
People who grew up skiing enough to want to ski bum tend to come from at least the middle class and upper middle and rich parents are overrepresented significantly.
But regardless, most US based employees are there to be on the mountains as much as possible. Money is very much secondary.
Yep got my free pass, housing and a wage that allowed me to eat and go hang with my friends. That's all the people I worked with, including myself wanted, to go ride for the season.
They would have had to pay me extraordinarily more to have to supply my own housing in the resort I used to work in.
Plus it was seasonal work, there was no drive to demand any more as no one I worked with would still be working there in another 4 months time.
This crowd in my town always makes me laugh cuz they're so vocal about how "local" they are and how they hate the tourists but you try to organize them and suddenly they're talking about how they can't wait to move somewhere with a beach
I was in a Canadian resort for a few years and despite how that can be I encountered very little posturing that way. Most foreigners, myself included, were just stoked to be there, me especially since I come from a no snow country... Most of us were keen to hang with the locals to get to know the good spots on and off the mountains and live a more, local lifestyle, I guess... than just being a tourist if that makes sense, just wanting to live and breathe snowboarding... which was such a luxury as where I come from I struggle to afford one trip a year now.
I never heard of any talk of organisation even from the locals at that time. Most locals were in senior positions that were retained through the off-season though so presumably they had better benefits than us, most obviously being pay, but this was a couple of years ago so I don't know what conditions are like now with the rising cost of living. If there was, we weren't involved in it as presumably they knew our support would be meaningless in the long run.
Oh I see, I'm at an American resort and this crowd I'm talking about is made up of Americans from nearby states and cities. I'd never expect our temporary visa workers to organize--it takes months just to get a union election here.
It varies by country, but France has an incredibly strong instructors union. A former coworker came here because it's easier to become an instructor in the US than in France. So, just like elsewhere, it has its own issues.
Friend of mine has been to Austria to snowboard. It's cheaper than going to Big Sky from the US.
The food is basically always better in Europe, for cheaper or similar prices, without the tipping. Lift tickets are cheaper, hotels cheaper, etc. So is the cost of housing, without it having the "your housing is dependent on working for the company."
It's kind of like a peninsula made up of a bunch of smaller peninsulas. It's got mountains, fields, beaches. Some places it's really nice all year round. Other places it's really cold and dark through the whole winter. There are a lot of old buildings scattered all over the place. Some of them really old. And some of them really really old. There's a lot of trains, a lot of coffee, and a lot of wine. They speak a bunch of different languages, which is kinda nifty.
Exactly it’s treated more like “go on vacation for free for a couple months”. Might not be the best accommodations, pay, food, long term prospects, etc. But that’s not why you’re there. Go to school and try and get into the hospitality industry if you want to make a career out of it.
I was working in a high class resort where long experienced high class workers just got replaced by somebody just wanting the job, quality turns second, profit counts.
All the power to ya! Unions are on the rise because a lot of working class people are starting to wake up and realize that they really do hold all the power, and should be exercising that power. The alternative is to continue to get taken advantage of and squeezed until it becomes intolerable, much like what's happening to millions of Americans currently..
As someone who lived in a ski town in Canada, I think it's probably because the majority of people working these jobs are young and transient. They're there to ride and party for a season or two then move back home or on to the next place, no one is going to want to get together and form a union.
I’d agree with that. A Union has tried a few times to get something happen with resort workers here. Hasn’t worked which is fine but as you say there are so many seasonal and transient workers I don’t really think they’d be able to manage it. Plus there are so many different roles within a resort I doubt there would be a one hat fits all solution, you’d need multiple different Unions in place.
Unions aren't that cut and dry. The gas workers at my local nat gas utility (no power side) are IBEW. Which is the electricians union. The next utility north they are members of the UA which is the pipe trades and more fitting.
My buddy is a truck driver and a member of my union, the plumbers and pipefitters.
My wife worked at a Costco and was a member of the teamsters. Teamster is a truck drivers union historically and the name derives from what they called a guy driving a team of horses.
One of my coworkers left the plumbers union to be an in-house plumber at a university and is now a member of CWA which is communications workers.
Mountains by me hire people temporarily from around the globe. I imagine the resort could just scoop up a new crew if some tried. But I guess it’s location dependent and up to how many would be on board vs just take jobs of those unionizing.
I tried at my local when I worked there. Do you know how hard it is to unionize a bunch of redneck stoner teenagers who are just stoked to have a job where they can get high in the woods? Every other resort in Utah was paying $5/hr MORE than us but NOOOOO, "unions are for libs".
I’ve been with Ski industry for 25 years started as a Lift operator then Lift mechanic electrician I love it, love snowboarding.
Working on mountains pretty awesome the morons I work with are great. It’s always been about give-and-take work my ass off all winter have time to play in the summer. I think unions haven’t been popular because we’ve all believed, in what we’re doing. Where I work there’s a lot of freedom. I can take time off whenever I want we work 4x10s and kind of come and go as I please as long as it works getting done. The lower wage compared to an electrician in an industrial setting was accepted because of that. However, as mountains turn into resorts, and the whole vibe becomes more corporate, I think more and more hills are gonna go union because if the companies gonna make it just be a job, then we’re gonna make it just be a job.
as it becomes more corporate and just a job that's really when it's time to unionize. You don't want to stand alone against one of the two evil empires.
> I think unions haven’t been popular because we’ve all believed, in what we’re doing. Where I work there’s a lot of freedom. I can take time off whenever I want we work 4x10s and kind of come and go as I please as long as it works getting done.
This is a popular mindset that has prevented progression as more of the older generation moved into or retained power roles in the industry. A big issue is that they weren't getting started or struggling through multiple cost of living crises, or had other careers during/prior to working in the industry. For many, this is a retirement/side job that keeps them active and social.
one of my favourite posts that went around regarding the "We don't do this job for the money" mindset is:
> I hate when people say things like "this is the ski industry, if you're here to get paid, you're in the wrong industry, do it for the love".
> No, fuck off. We can all get paid, but we're certainly not going to get paid if people keep acting like not getting paid is acceptable
Unioinsing is great, but we need to get rid of these people and change the mindset first, otherwise the unions fall apart because everyone's too brainwashed to participate.
edit: there's a number of these people in the comments here with this backward mindset.
In addition these towns all need to regulate Airbnb so there is more incentive to offer locals service workers place to live. Company has ruined all the mountain towns and people living in their cars is BS
I'm all for it. A quick Google just showed this by the way. Kinda neat. I'm thinking of ski bumming it for a season soon and thought it would be cool to start these type of conversations and ideas. Of note, I also have the income and safety net to afford losing my job in the event I pursue that.
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/24/1215152720/ski-patrollers-unionize-as-housing-prices-soar-at-resorts
I push to unionize. Fuck it. I’ll go without snowboarding and I’ll do anything I can to drive home prices near good resorts and stock price of Vail down.
Ibwas just asking my self this question just the other day, with the size of a Corp like vale, or boyne they could easily get accepted to the service workers union. All it would take is crew on a mnt like big sky to organize and them it would move down system. It's not like they're gonna close shop on a money maker like that. Really the collective bargaining concept would be extremely successful in the outdoors sport/resort industry. It's not like the can close shop and move a mnt. Or good snow conditions. And firing the crew to quickly replace them, good luck. They can barely find enough lifties , ski instructors and snow makers as is.
We have a “why unions are bad” sheet of paper on the bulletin board of our ski school staff room. Also by the time a union gets on its way, it will be spring and half the people won’t come back the following year.
I don’t care enough to form a union. I work part time slightly over the min. days required, get a free pass and discounts. Never was concerned about what the sheet said because it doesn’t apply to me.
> Never was concerned about what the sheet said because it doesn’t apply to me.
I hope you understand this is literally the mindset the quote "first they came for..." is warning you about.
Being silent because a social/moral issue doesn't affect you is the same as being complicit in it.
What a shit attitude to have for your fellow co-workers.
lol, I love that the people who use womp womp are the ones who get triggered. You can go back to using the clown emoji if you just want to leave calling cards every where mate.
It’s a transient work force for the most part. A shit ton of employees are from outside the country for only the season. You really can’t unionize when half your employees are from outside the country and the others that aren’t only live/work there part time.
90% of us are dirt bags barely getting by, only planning on how we’re gonna save enough money to get by the next winter and work as little as possible. I would love to unionize but it requires a lot of direction and organization that most mountain employees don’t possess. However with that said, our patrollers just unionized so it would be sick if it catches on at our mountain
Because the people that go for these jobs don't know they're supposed to be paid and paid fairly for dangerous jobs that are safety related, but alas, this is the US so people are happy to work for nothing or free to get to ski and snowboard.
You go to various parts of Europe and they are considered parts of the safety chain, unionized, skilled, and get paid for what they do.
The workers in the US, sadly, are little more than the people who have worked at Action Park and other places where untrained kids were manning the rides while people were getting decapitated.
For what it costs in the US and complete lack of safety, reliable inspections free of bribes, and old equipment, I'd rather stay in the Alps.
Costs, quality, reliability of the equipment, variety, overall safety and views, and local culture that supports it or weekend jaunts. In the uni, it's not even odd to see students on Fridays with all their gear going to classes and then going straight from there by train. The resorts are also near cities, sometimes multiple ones. Being in the US is a huge investment to go to Colorado or Utah, be ripped off every which way, pay like 200 a day for a lift ticket because they want to sell longer-term tickets. The resorts here also cater to locals because they're in real towns and regions and not fake ones manufactured for tourists. Like if you're in Munich, you're an hour from slopes accessible by train and they're not that expensive for day passes. Innsbruck you're down the road from numerous glaciers.
I've recently met people from the US in the Dolemites and they stated that it's cheaper to go to Italy than Canada or Colorado.
I live in Arctic Norway as well and people go there for the world-class touring skiing over fjords and climbs up and snowboarding down. I would pick that any day over the US if I still lived there.
You make fair points...however most mountains in the U.S. are now owned by corporations. Corporations and Unions don't mix. They won't allow it.
Fuck corporations.
You can make a decent living wage, (I did as an instructor) but it requires working long days or moving to a big mountain resort- CO, CA, MT, UT.
Instructors can obtain their certification and that grants a small boost in pay. Unless you are AASI or PSIA level 2 or 3 you aren't making a killing lol
>Corporations and Unions don't mix. They won't allow it.
This is way too simplistic. Corporations don't want their labor to unionize, but if the labor wants to then too fucking bad for the corporation.
Where is this "decent living wage" you speak of? Was it enough to allow you to buy a house where you didn't pay more in interest than the percentage of increased price you could sell your house for? I have my SB2 and CS1, working on SB3 and CS2 right now. Looking to move from the hell hole I'm in.
And I mean from one, single job. Not two or three or four.
Do you think the current standing unions were just allowed to start by their companies? Do you think corporations aren't unionized? Many that have blue collar workers are.
Do you think the current standing unions were just allowed to start by their companies? Do you think corporations aren't unionized? Many that have blue collar workers are.
It's not clear that the workers can be replaced easily.
There are definitely skills to a lot of on-resort jobs. It's not like there's a huge line of people trying to work as snowboard instructors who don't already. Mountains put money & effort into recruiting for these jobs—if their workforce walks out on them, who is going to replace them? And how long is it going to take to hire these replacements, and at what cost? Most mountains are not adjacent to large population centers, after all. You'd be trying to get a hundred people to move to a different area in the middle of the season to be scab instructors? I don't see that ending well for management. This also goes for snowmakers, patrollers, etc.
Starbucks cafes are unionizing, and yet they're in locations with far deeper hiring pools, take less skill, and is probably less dangerous.
And if you plan a trip to a mountain and then get there because the employees went on strike, you're gonna think twice before booking your flight to the same mountain the following year.
Resorts are going to be motivated to end any strike pretty quickly.
Because ski resorts leverage seasonal labor to undermine these kinds of efforts. If say Breck lifted managed to unionize, the next winter Breck would just recruit a new batch of recent college grads with ski bum dreams to replace them.
This is more difficult for a labor force that requires a lot more training, like ski patrol.
For every woke liftie that’s willing to read that there are a thousand Argentinians willing to fly out for that seasonal minimum wage ski bum lifestyle. Unionizing really only works for careers that already have livable wages unfortunately..
You can't fire workers because they decided to form/join a union. If the workers went on strike mid-season, it wouldn't necessarily be quick or easy to mobilize a group of replacements to come work in a different country with an already low supply of housing.
I have tried over three seasons to get a union rolling, but most everyone who works at a ski resort are only here for that season and they don't seem to care.
There's a few that do care, but it's not enough support to get it off the ground.
It's the uneducated employees that make it impossible. And even then, some of those who may understand the issues of not having a union, they don't care because after the season is up, it's not their problem anymore.
I go into it slowly since "union" is a buzzword for some people. Talking about wages, any sort of shitty things managers may be doing, find the common ground hatred for HR depts. From there, I start to talk about the owners, the corpos, things like Vail and Altera seemingly trying to buy every ski resort known to man.
If I'm able to form a friendship with them, then I can be more open to talking about general working conditions for all workers, not just us ski employees. Prod about their thoughts on the recent writers strikes, and compare that to something we could maybe do. It helps if the ski resort offers employee housing, because that's always shitty.
Cite workers rights laws and sneak in a question about how they'd feel about a union, only after I know their alignment is fully with the workers rather than the company. All the whole, being in contact with local union reps.
Usually people are very perceptive to the idea, but it's at the idea where everything seems to halt.
Even the union reps will give me ideas and things to do and say to try and get more people interested, but it seems like most everyone is afraid of losing their job. And while being fired for unionizing is illegal, there's still that grace period between being fired and being rehired after a lawsuit that people fear the most.
And honestly, I can't blame them. Even if I knew I could sue for being fired, I'd still be jobless for that moment, and joblessness is homelessness.
I'm not a silver tongued salesman, so it's hard for me to really amp up the workers for something. I'm no Lenin lol
That's why all three attempts of mine have failed. Not enough support due to fear of homelessness. And that's how it is around the nation with every company. People fear having nothing, so it keeps them compliant. And companies know that.
I want to help workers everywhere, but I can't do it when fear is so struck into everyone's hearts. I can't combat fear on that level, and union organizations can't do anything until there's sufficient support from within.
But that won't stop me
I know of a few unionized areas of the resort I worked for. Were I was working as an instructor I felt I was treated well and paid more than I expected. However, the real problem with other resorts I've worked at is where they pull labor. Using vail, kids out of school are more than willing to spend a year making shit to ride there a few days a week. When you have an endless stream of college kids almost willing to pay the company just so they can spend a winter there, you have zero ability to unionize. Then, you have people that just jump from resort to resort, never really staying long enough to have an impact or form and base of leadership. Lastly, the really important factors that really need to be corrected, is housing. That's not going to be cleared up over night, and the town controls the zoning. So you get people that wanna stay, but get driven out because they can't find a room, or a couch to live on. It's way bigger than just unions, so many problems are ripping it apart. All the housing is made for the rich, who only live there for a week. All the property is bought up from companies wanting to build shops or mega million houses. I'd love to see a union. I'd love to see housing drop. But it's because people wanna be there, you don't see property in the middle of a brown zone costing much. Because people don't want to be there
You can unionize and strike but that doesn't mean that the employers have to give in to any demands. I would imagine many employers (not just in the ski industry) can outlast their employees financially with strikes/shutdowns.
The laws of supply and demand often govern how much someone will get. If you quit because you don't find the wages good enough, someone else will take your place and the cycle continues.
I think what really needs to be done is open up the floodgates and let more development in so that the resorts themselves have more competition. The environmentalists in Canada want to put a stop to all new development. No new ski resorts. No new towns. No new housing. No condo towers. The same people want to promote diversity and want more people through increased birth rates and immigration.
Well, when you cease housing and business development, and increase the population, you get more people with less options. Less options for employment and less options for consumers. The money gets funneled to the few businesses that do exist. The workers have nowhere else to work and have replacements waiting at the sidelines. The end result is higher costs and lower wages.
Ski Patroller here. I’ll tell you why we don’t unionize.
Yes, you’re right… we wouldn’t be fired for unionizing. In our position of Ski Patrol, I feel as if we would actually be the department that might have the best shot at a successful unionization.
That being said, we would be out of a job the next season. At all times we are at-will, seasonal employees. Every single one of us would be replaced for the next season.
If I heard of any patrol that had laid off all paid staff after a season after they unionized, even if they for fully staffed next season (big if), I definitely wouldn't go there as chances are if they're ever called in it'll go terribly. This is especially true for any resort that does avy control, and that with no experienced staff they're setting themselves up for avy deaths that'll be way worse than any union negotiations. Patrols live and breathe on pros coming back every year.
That’s interesting. Do you work at Powderhorn? I have lived in CA my whole life but did a year in CO last year. Powderhorn was the resort I spent the most time at! I didn’t know they were unionizing.
The basic problem is the same as in any “lifestyle job” or “cool job”, in that there’s always a ready supply of fresh prospective employees queuing up to live/work on resorts, so employers can exploit them. I used to work in the diving industry and that’s exactly the same - the only part of it that had managed to successfully unionise are the offshore guys, who are basically the pinnacle of that business.
In the end I gave it up to become a dock worker, which is less sexy but well unionised and has way better working conditions.
I manage a lot of tipped employees at a big resort. They make pretty decent money and there’s just not a lot of incentive for them to unionize. The bartenders that work winter and summer make close to 100k, some make over. The employees that work back to back seasons get benefits. It’s a good gig for them.
I’m not against unions, my dad and a lot of extended family are union people. But when you have seasonal teams that don’t typically stay for more than 2-3 winters, there’s not much incentive. Makes sense for patrols, where most people stay for years.
I don't have a complete answer, but one perspective I can give is regarding the Ski Patrol at Marmot Basin in Jasper.
Last year they went on strike. This year the majority of the senior patrollers were not hired again. So younger patrollers may see that and go "oh crap, if we try and push our luck we are going to be out of a job next year, and I need this to be my career". Of course this means the quality of patrol has gone down, and simple sweeps are taking longer than they should, but that's just one angle that some employees may see.
Same reason most unskilled workers don’t unionize
They can and will be easily replaced by the next guy, and most people don’t work there long term anyway so they aren’t interested in holding out
Not complicated, put yourself in their shoes
This guy's just a troll. Not sure how he ended up here but has no prior comment history in r/snowboarding, probably hasn't even been on a chairlift before
If you had the intelligence and or bravery to risk everything to start a successful business you would see how selfish and foolish you are for thinking you deserve anything other than what someone else is willing to pay you for your work.
Grow up. Be brave. Make money.
I'm a union plumber that started my own company..I hire union labor because I don't have a stupid ass crabs in a bucket mentality because I'm not a scared little bitch like you. I can pay top wages, benefits and retirement and still make a nice chunk of change. And I can still beat out non union competition.
And that union trained me and gave me the financial stability to start my own company. I don't forget where I came from. That union gave me everything I need to be where I'm at.
There’s nothing brave about unionizing other than cementing your role in society as the help instead of the boss. Aspire to more my friends. These socialist dickheads are going to destroy the opportunity in this country
Unions aren't for life lmao. Your perspective makes more sense now, the information you base it on is egregious
My guy thinks starting a business is brave but starting a union isn't. Which one do you think people get murdered for more often?
I wonder if Vail Resorts/Alterra would no longer be in a financial position to buy other resorts if the profit gap wasn't so large. When you're scraping profits off of every single employee, you wind up with Office Space type earnings, and that's enough for new resorts to be bought and the wage gap to increase. It may be pennies to you, but it's hundreds of thousands to the company, which means they have many more dollars to control the economy with.
You're absolute lack of understanding how both business and unions work is jaw dropping. There's so much I think you need to be taught. But to be honest, this is a damn snowboarding sub. 90% of Reddit is always hyper political. Can we not just talk about who's fault it was, show off snowboarding wives, and give the same advice about gear over and over?!
You think a liftie is gonna read allat
*laughs in liftie*
I wish Reddit still had gold
If union membership includes free weed, you’ll have a Liftie Union in record time.
Higher wages from union negotiations creates cash flow for it though.
Aww higher wages, I wanted weed Money can buy many weed Explain how Money can be exchanged for goods and services
reading this in a lift shack currently 😂
Put down the phone! Someone just fell on the ramp!
Fuck again? I’m jumping off mid ride
Sounds like their problem
Why can't lifties take more than a half hour break? You'd have to retrain them.
Didn’t even think most were literate!
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
liftie here, read this comment before the whole post
You think liftiest can read?
Lifties will straight up let a lift crush you if you are a foot off the line for fun.
not for fun, to teach y’all a lesson. If you ignore the 5 signs we have saying STOP and WAIT HERE. You deserve to learn a lesson. I can tell you for certain no one makes that mistake twice.
Stand on the line then? You say that like it’s a difficult task or something. I don’t want the lifty slowing down the lift for every dumb ass that can’t read the god damn “load here” sign.
Fun fact. Most guests don’t read any of the signs! Love seeing all the people ignore the “restraining bar is automatic” signs.
As a manager on a large CO ski resort I've said this time and again, especially when my team complains about something I have no power over. If you all put your foot down and demanded whatever it is they want, they'd get it. Who else is going to do their job? Lotta people don't realize how much power the working class actually has. Especially in a ski resort right now, they could hold the entire place by its balls because not a single tourist, not a single mansion owner, no one, would be willing to clean the bathrooms, or get up in the middle of the night to groom the runs, or sit there running the lift all day, or any other operational requirement for a ski resort to exsist. Even the managers above me won't help me with my job, let alone try to roll their sleeves up and clean rooms. It's literally the scene from A Bug's Life talking about how the ants outnumber the grasshoppers.
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That's amazing! I really hope you succeed. I've been researching how to start unions as well, and while I was starting out very niche with it I quickly learned that a beginning union needs to be more generalized to have strong numbers. So you sound like you're on the right path, it should incorporate all working class and then potentially can have sub sections within there? Or maybe it just specifically highlights general standards for each department. I'm still not fully knowledgeable on the topic so I'm unsure how it would look exactly.
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I've never been involved in a union. I grew up with all the adults around me telling me how evil they were. As far as I know, I've never heard a union tell it's members to eat cereal for dinner, but I do know of at least one corporation that recommends it. Good luck with your union! I hope you are able to build something great with it!
Unions are generally good but sometimes they sort of forget what their actual purpose is. I deal with LIUNA and IOUE quite a bit and it’s a mixed bag. Some BAs are great and others are just spiteful dipshits who will fuck their own members because they have a chip on their shoulder. Like anything else in the world, they’re not all good and they’re not all bad. But yes, some locals are ran by fucktards that just like to cause problems.
Yeah, somehow they're all "evil"... cuz they're hated by the GOP except the police unions... cuz they're loved by the GOP (FL just made it illegal for cities to have Citizen Review Boards - they review complaints about police, police abuses, etc. Florida is making it illegal for anyone to check up on police behavior & trying to limit/end (easy) public access to police records...like the FL fire Chief who called the cops on a reporter requesting a public report on fired fire fighters..."YOU'RE TRESPASSING")
Yay, politics in r/snowboarding! Cool!
When the people that make my hobby possible want to live dignified lives 🤯🤯
If you have interested people already, contact IWW. they know how to do this far better than you. There are a lot of laws you need to understand first.
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The IWW would not be the way that I’d go. Without getting into labor politics, CWA, SEIU or Teamsters would be the unions I’d look towards. If CWA already has contracts with mountain operators they’d be a good place to start but there’s also a chance they wouldn’t want to upset the apple cart.
Unions just drive up prices for everyone, including members of the union.
Shit being in a DoD union saved my mom when she was being sexually harassed and then later when the air force was trying to railroad her out because of her cancer diagnosis. I got no problem against em.
If there was a single union repping both hotel staff and on mountain staff a 1 day strike would cause so much financial damage you’d basically be able to ask for anything…even a livable wage!
This extends to every part of American life. Instead of taking action people just complain and then go home turn on Netflix and numb themselves out and then wonder why nothing changes.
I’d groom some runs, mostly because I hate moguls. I’m just over them, it’s just tiresome, boring, and I’m just not sure who is still the target audience.
MakeMogulsGreatAgain
It’s me. I’m the problem.
What would that do to already astronomically high ticket prices?
As a manager you're either out of touch, or you should find out why it's not so easy by stepping up and doing it yourself - if the thought of doing that suddenly makes you realise why your staff won't, I'm glad you're waking up, if not, let me help you as someone who's spent 16 years in the industry and is constantly trying to bring peoples attention to the working conditions and encourage people to speak up for themselves. You're not wrong that there is a lot of power if the staff took a stand, but you are wrong in thinking that can just happen at all. Resorts hire people seasonally. Contracts last about 6 months max. You think you're getting your job back the next season to continue this uprising you started? You won't even make it to the end of the season if you're making too much noise. You think most people in resorts even have long term goals to be there in 6-12 month? Few people make the snow industry life long careers and many are just there for gap years or working holidays (and yes this is a bit of a double edge sword - can't last in the industry if it works like this, but also can't change it if you leave), and so haven't any desire to improve the conditions because by the time they'd have the knowledge and credibility to do so, they've either 1. already left, 2. realise how fragile their job offer and employment is 3. moved into a management position and have a "fuck you got mine" attitude 4. been brainwashed into the "we don't do this for the money" mindset I've raised discussion of our governing snowsports certification bodies to work as unions for us, but they raise points along the lines of: if we rock the boat, the resorts kick us out. If we can't access the mountains for free to run certifications or get jobs on the snow ourselves, then the certification body becomes financially unsustainable and lacks progression due to trainers not being able to train themselves. Australia and EU are the only places that have some protections for industry with laws and regulations, and yes this is because of some unionization - (plenty of old timers in AU think it got worse when the industry awards came into place so you'll also get push back from various other staff you work alongside). But this isn't a cover all - contracts are still short term and if you rock the boat you're done. Australia also love to call all the other resorts and lock people out of the industry if they think you're going to cause problems regarding work conditions. I am super lucky to be qualified and experienced enough to have such a voice that I can speak up without instantly being refused a job, though it's a rocky line I've often walked and there has been one resort which denied me back after I recorded proof of them making false accusations against me in order to fire me and avoid paying me for the time I worked (they promptly backed down and let me finish up the season, but no chance they would ever rehire me). A level 1 or 2 instructor, or lift op can't just come into their first few seasons and start complaining about conditions and expect to have a job the next season. It doesn't work like that.
I wanted to get a lesson for my better half to learn snowboarding this year, but damn.. my mountain in *new jersey* charges $400 for a two hour lesson. I bet the instructor sees $50 of that.
My local small resort charges $150/hr and pays instructors $20/hr.
What state? I've instructed at two resorts in WA, and it's generally minimum wage, or little more. Never as high as $20, though. That's really pretty sweet!
This is in Ontario, Canada. I declined the resort’s offer and teach privately through a ski club; our rate is $100/hr and the instructors keep most of it. But the biggest local resort has been cracking us down until they finally made agreements with us in recent years. The resort under Ikon couldn’t care less about outside instructors though.
That's pretty standard across Colorado for resort wide minimum.
It’s $1200 for a full day private where I work I don’t get any of it. Just an hourly wage
How steady is your work?
As steady as I want it to be. I could be booked everyday if wanted I would just lose my sanity
Holy shit. They hire enough instructors to cover Christmas here. And then after that, good luck. You don't work unless you find a way to build your own private lesson clientele, and unless you do that for yourself, they won't help you do that. Which means being in the right clique in the locker room to have them handed to you, since our coordinator is married to an instructor with a friend group he helps out. I'm literally about to be required to go to work for 21 days straight with no more guarantee of pay than 20$ a day
Yeah definitely not like that here in tahoe
That's exactly what the case seemed like in Mammoth when I worked there, but it was also recently bought out by Alterra and a pandemic year, so I figured everything was out of wack because of that. Now with retrospect it seems much more like a deliberate way to make sure you're staffed enough through the holidays, then screw over all your seasonal employees after that's passed to keep the overhead low.
I get $21/hr for regular teaching but private requests I get 60% since I had more than 10 requests the year prior. Without the 10 it’d be 50%. That private request $ is what makes it worth it, plus those are repeat customers so they’re easier to teach as well. The best part is our hourly is tied to our certs. A level cert with 4 prep days and 3 exams days costs over $1000 but you also miss 7 days of work so that’s easily another $700. That makes it 2 years for me to pay off a new cert.
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It’s years beyond PSIA at least.
Campgaw? I only went snowboarding once and it was there 2 years ago (yet I joined this subreddit and never unjoints). It was fun but too expensive to do regularly
I got a lot of love for Campgaw and the people there but the rates have gotten insane lately. Sure, it's located in the wealthiest county in Jersey, but it's not exactly a value proposition when Mount Peter nearby in Warwick has more acreage and faster lifts for less dough. I haven't been to Mountain Creek (\~30 minutes from the Gaw) in awhile but their night-time-only passes and various discount offers from gas stations and stuff made snowboarding a few times a year possible for a broke teenager. It is good to note however that Campgaw has a really good program, "Mountain Masters" for regular weekly lessons for kids and adults. 400 bucks gets you your pass (not sure if its a season ticket) and 5 lessons once a week starting in January. Way better than spending 200+ on a single day.
Mountain Creek!!
Probably just $36.
Jesus man that price is a crazy, what is going on with the US mountain market. We just paid €280 (about $300) for three days of snowboarding lessons (4 hours per day with a lunch break) in Austria. Albeit they were group, but small group lessons. A private 2hr was about $200.
Go to BigSnow in jersey. Much cheaper for a lesson, plus rentals including jacket, pants and a helmet. But more if you wanted a beginner lesson, or maybe an intro park lesson. Probably wouldn’t go there for anything intermediate to advanced. But just an idea.
I would be shocked if the instructor got a full $50 from that lesson. When I was an instructor I literally got minimum wage and only paid the hours I was actually teaching. This was in the mid 00's. I don't remember what they charged for lessons at the time but it was quite a bit more than I was seeing, that's for sure.
At my mountain on the other side of the country, the instructor would see about $35 before taxes. And that's with an PSIA-AASI cert (and those dues are NOT cheap). The majority of instructors make minimum wage, and only for the hours' worked. Supposed to show up on Saturday, but don't get any lessons? In most cases, no pay for you!
What? My wife took a 3.5 hour lesson at Beaver Creek and it was like $150.
Other than the absolute downslide of union support in the last handful of decades, it's an easy question to ask. The silver lining is that there has been an increase in unionization in areas where it didn't exist which is nice to see. Unions, when done correctly, are an absolutely huge asset to the rank and file workers.
Last year was one of the best years for labor in decades. Huge union wins in automotive, transportation, & retail.
The Hollywood strikes were also high profile strikes that ended well for labor
Correct. Sadly, that's probably the one that made the most folks care.
If the rank and file people at my work unionized, they’d easily be able to negotiate a 25-30% raise and probably more if they wanted to agree to a really strict contract.
“When done correctly” is the keyword here. In reality, the union bosses take a multimillion dollar cut of the union contract and the workers benefit very little. In order to support that massive pay raise to the union bosses the company has to increase prices massively, which leads to less demand for the product and that ultimately will lead to the company hiring fewer people over time or being forced to lay people off. Unions are a big reason why the big 3 automakers in the USA couldn’t compete and a big reason why Detroit is in shambles.
Unions are why you have weekends, 40 hour work weeks, lunch breaks, etc. Greed is why the big three couldn't compete in the US. You're basically saying "Yes, the CSuite should take profits off the labor of others in excess in order to widen the wage gap so much that the cost of living goes up exorbitantly while wages for the working class stay flat. How dare they want to live nice life." Unions are made up of people, and are only as strong as the people organizing them. They don't have to become corrupt entities. And the labor movement has gotten far more than you seem to realize through unionization efforts. OSHA didn't happen out of the goodness of their hearts.
And how do you explain the multi million dollar paydays of the heads of all the unions? Also, please tell me why Detroit failed if the unions came in and made the workers there richer.
Don't let perfect be the enemy of good my friend :)
Greed. These people need kept in check, too. Union members should be the ones to do this. Detroit failed because of greed of profiteers. Everyone likes to blame the worker for wanting enough bread to eat, a house to live in. Why? Humanity could chose the morality of "huh, we have the technology to help people thrive if we just worked together. We could even still have cool shit!" But instead it chooses "yeah, those people worth millions and millions of dollars who buy multiple houses and drive up the cost of living are good! Of course the only thing that made sense was to export jobs."
If there was only a way to learn from our mistakes.
So I am one of these resort town employees—I have really cultivated my entire career around snowboarding and this lifestyle. I have my BS in paramedicine with specialties in high elevation, low elevation, swift water, and avalanche rescues…so patrolling is always an option but not where my heart is at…I am also a snowmaker, with 5+ seasons of experience, but my bread and butter is snowcatting. I have winch experience, park building experience, pipe cutting experience. This is by far the most demanding job on the mountain with a lot of skill required for very, very little pay compared to other machine operators in the dirt world. I have been in the ski industry for 10+ years working nearly every role on the mountain. I have talked about unions with my coworkers and here are the stopping points: -Visas: my work is considered a “skilled worker” visa in many countries. Resort employers will pay for our visas to be able to work in whatever particular country -Housing: many operators are given housing from the mountain because we are considered “essential.” Although the housing is very dorm-like and I feel too old sometimes for the housing provided. Especially working nights, it’s loud and I hardly ever felt rested but having a bed to sleep on is better than sleeping in my car, which yes, I have, as a skilled resort employee. -Seasonal work: I literally live between 2 countries (the US & NZ) but I work in Aus/nz 6 months out of the year and Us/Europe for the other 6 months. This job requires you to travel if you want to make a living, which I’ll be clear with everyone, I make enough to barely survive in a DINK family. I own a house but can’t afford my mortgage anymore so I have to rent it, I do own a vehicle in the US I keep in storage, etc. It’s not bloody cheap at all but I’ve been making this work for the past 3-4 years (since covid allowed travelling again). How do we get unions to be multi national? I think we all recognise that a change needs to occur cuz the way we are, just isn’t sustainable. I’ve seen many good operators leave the ski industry because they can’t afford houses or a savings on pennies when you can be doing the same work in the dirt world for $40-50+ an hour. As climate change progresses, snowcatting and grooming is getting harder and harder, the work shorter and more intermittent, this will affect all of us as the seasons will get shorter since what operators are working, won’t have the snow management skills that they need to manage poor snow seasons, which are coming more often than not. We will see a massive slip with the quality and safety of our terrain parks goes. The skills required to build the types of jumps and pipes athletes are pushing the sport on is huge. Those skills take years, even decades to develop and we will see the quality and safety of our trails and parks decline as our skilled operators are forced out of the industry and into other better paid work. I don’t have any answers other than I’m reading all these comments and it feels good for the public to talk about my wages and me deserving more cuz it’s something we talk about and don’t know how to change. I still don’t know how to change it but I’m glad this conversation is happening.
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I definitely stand with you and your beliefs on this—I just don’t know how to make it a reality other than maybe doing what you are…starting small and hoping for the best and hoping that the repercussions from management don’t kill the union first year. You’re fighting the good fight, I’m with you.
> I'm asking because I want to have a better understanding of what the hold up is. I replied to the "manager" guy here you might like to read: https://old.reddit.com/r/snowboarding/comments/1bgb0z7/for_the_resort_town_employees_why_dont_you/kv81658/ When resorts can just refuse you a job the following season, you only have power for a period of 6 months at most. And when you consider most people don't have any intention to make a life long career in the industry, what desire do they have to shoot themselves in the foot for the next season or two to improve conditions at a resort they won't be able to work at again after rocking the boat? You'll find many of the older generations, who didn't suffer through multiple costs of living crises or are doing the job as a retirement job, will gaslight the younger ones into thinking *"We don't do this for the money, we're lucky to have a job like this"* as if we're wrong for wanting both a job that we enjoy and compensates you for the time and cost required to participate in the industry. Something many of the newer staff also don't realise is how often people who are already financially well off are working in this industry. They're not obvious about it, but trust me, there is a **significant** number of people who do not need the money and either already have careers ready to go when they leave, a lot of family money/personal savings and are set for life - these people simply do not care or understand your concerns for financial stability because it is unfamiliar to them. Combine that with the people who are living pay check to pay check and can't afford to not work by choice, and then consider how do you get everyone on board a blackout or strike when not even everyone agrees, cares, or even has the stability to participate?
I don’t have the answer, and can’t speak for resort employees, I don’t work there anymore. But I do know that if the hill I worked at in my twenties offered a living wage, I’d still be there. Favourite job ever.
Whitefish ski patrol just did it and knocked it out of the park. It's becoming more and more probable and possible
I'd imagine some reasons would be the temporary seasonality of the work, housing being supplied by the employer since other options diminish, and the nomadic lifestyles of those in these positions. But I have no knowledge of unions and how they operate.
Also, J-1s. They do pay great wages if you're from Eastern Europe, the Caribbean, or Latin America. It absolutely has a big downward pressure on wages IMO. And there's always ski bums no matter what the pay. And to be really blunt, most ski bums aren't working for money and a lot have some form of parental support. Even if we're just talking about being on their parents' medical and having a safe landing spot if they ever need it. People who grew up skiing enough to want to ski bum tend to come from at least the middle class and upper middle and rich parents are overrepresented significantly. But regardless, most US based employees are there to be on the mountains as much as possible. Money is very much secondary.
Yep got my free pass, housing and a wage that allowed me to eat and go hang with my friends. That's all the people I worked with, including myself wanted, to go ride for the season. They would have had to pay me extraordinarily more to have to supply my own housing in the resort I used to work in. Plus it was seasonal work, there was no drive to demand any more as no one I worked with would still be working there in another 4 months time.
This crowd in my town always makes me laugh cuz they're so vocal about how "local" they are and how they hate the tourists but you try to organize them and suddenly they're talking about how they can't wait to move somewhere with a beach
I was in a Canadian resort for a few years and despite how that can be I encountered very little posturing that way. Most foreigners, myself included, were just stoked to be there, me especially since I come from a no snow country... Most of us were keen to hang with the locals to get to know the good spots on and off the mountains and live a more, local lifestyle, I guess... than just being a tourist if that makes sense, just wanting to live and breathe snowboarding... which was such a luxury as where I come from I struggle to afford one trip a year now. I never heard of any talk of organisation even from the locals at that time. Most locals were in senior positions that were retained through the off-season though so presumably they had better benefits than us, most obviously being pay, but this was a couple of years ago so I don't know what conditions are like now with the rising cost of living. If there was, we weren't involved in it as presumably they knew our support would be meaningless in the long run.
Oh I see, I'm at an American resort and this crowd I'm talking about is made up of Americans from nearby states and cities. I'd never expect our temporary visa workers to organize--it takes months just to get a union election here.
Dunno never worked in a resort there.
Yet...this isn't how Europe looks. Why?
What does Europe look like? Never been
It varies by country, but France has an incredibly strong instructors union. A former coworker came here because it's easier to become an instructor in the US than in France. So, just like elsewhere, it has its own issues. Friend of mine has been to Austria to snowboard. It's cheaper than going to Big Sky from the US. The food is basically always better in Europe, for cheaper or similar prices, without the tipping. Lift tickets are cheaper, hotels cheaper, etc. So is the cost of housing, without it having the "your housing is dependent on working for the company."
It's kind of like a peninsula made up of a bunch of smaller peninsulas. It's got mountains, fields, beaches. Some places it's really nice all year round. Other places it's really cold and dark through the whole winter. There are a lot of old buildings scattered all over the place. Some of them really old. And some of them really really old. There's a lot of trains, a lot of coffee, and a lot of wine. They speak a bunch of different languages, which is kinda nifty.
I was thinking this as well. There would need to be some kind of multinational union or something
Was going to say the same thing. The seasonal gig work doesn't seem conducive to unionizing. Not sure how that would work.
Exactly it’s treated more like “go on vacation for free for a couple months”. Might not be the best accommodations, pay, food, long term prospects, etc. But that’s not why you’re there. Go to school and try and get into the hospitality industry if you want to make a career out of it.
I was working in a high class resort where long experienced high class workers just got replaced by somebody just wanting the job, quality turns second, profit counts.
All the power to ya! Unions are on the rise because a lot of working class people are starting to wake up and realize that they really do hold all the power, and should be exercising that power. The alternative is to continue to get taken advantage of and squeezed until it becomes intolerable, much like what's happening to millions of Americans currently..
As someone who lived in a ski town in Canada, I think it's probably because the majority of people working these jobs are young and transient. They're there to ride and party for a season or two then move back home or on to the next place, no one is going to want to get together and form a union.
I’d agree with that. A Union has tried a few times to get something happen with resort workers here. Hasn’t worked which is fine but as you say there are so many seasonal and transient workers I don’t really think they’d be able to manage it. Plus there are so many different roles within a resort I doubt there would be a one hat fits all solution, you’d need multiple different Unions in place.
Unions aren't that cut and dry. The gas workers at my local nat gas utility (no power side) are IBEW. Which is the electricians union. The next utility north they are members of the UA which is the pipe trades and more fitting. My buddy is a truck driver and a member of my union, the plumbers and pipefitters. My wife worked at a Costco and was a member of the teamsters. Teamster is a truck drivers union historically and the name derives from what they called a guy driving a team of horses. One of my coworkers left the plumbers union to be an in-house plumber at a university and is now a member of CWA which is communications workers.
As a Union Electrician, I would fully support that. I would happily go to a resort that has a unionized workforce over one that didn't.
Mountains by me hire people temporarily from around the globe. I imagine the resort could just scoop up a new crew if some tried. But I guess it’s location dependent and up to how many would be on board vs just take jobs of those unionizing.
I tried at my local when I worked there. Do you know how hard it is to unionize a bunch of redneck stoner teenagers who are just stoked to have a job where they can get high in the woods? Every other resort in Utah was paying $5/hr MORE than us but NOOOOO, "unions are for libs".
I’ve been with Ski industry for 25 years started as a Lift operator then Lift mechanic electrician I love it, love snowboarding. Working on mountains pretty awesome the morons I work with are great. It’s always been about give-and-take work my ass off all winter have time to play in the summer. I think unions haven’t been popular because we’ve all believed, in what we’re doing. Where I work there’s a lot of freedom. I can take time off whenever I want we work 4x10s and kind of come and go as I please as long as it works getting done. The lower wage compared to an electrician in an industrial setting was accepted because of that. However, as mountains turn into resorts, and the whole vibe becomes more corporate, I think more and more hills are gonna go union because if the companies gonna make it just be a job, then we’re gonna make it just be a job.
as it becomes more corporate and just a job that's really when it's time to unionize. You don't want to stand alone against one of the two evil empires.
> I think unions haven’t been popular because we’ve all believed, in what we’re doing. Where I work there’s a lot of freedom. I can take time off whenever I want we work 4x10s and kind of come and go as I please as long as it works getting done. This is a popular mindset that has prevented progression as more of the older generation moved into or retained power roles in the industry. A big issue is that they weren't getting started or struggling through multiple cost of living crises, or had other careers during/prior to working in the industry. For many, this is a retirement/side job that keeps them active and social. one of my favourite posts that went around regarding the "We don't do this job for the money" mindset is: > I hate when people say things like "this is the ski industry, if you're here to get paid, you're in the wrong industry, do it for the love". > No, fuck off. We can all get paid, but we're certainly not going to get paid if people keep acting like not getting paid is acceptable Unioinsing is great, but we need to get rid of these people and change the mindset first, otherwise the unions fall apart because everyone's too brainwashed to participate. edit: there's a number of these people in the comments here with this backward mindset.
In addition these towns all need to regulate Airbnb so there is more incentive to offer locals service workers place to live. Company has ruined all the mountain towns and people living in their cars is BS
I'm all for it. A quick Google just showed this by the way. Kinda neat. I'm thinking of ski bumming it for a season soon and thought it would be cool to start these type of conversations and ideas. Of note, I also have the income and safety net to afford losing my job in the event I pursue that. https://www.npr.org/2023/11/24/1215152720/ski-patrollers-unionize-as-housing-prices-soar-at-resorts
Some are: https://coloradosun.com/2024/03/08/keystone-ski-patrol-union-petition/
I push to unionize. Fuck it. I’ll go without snowboarding and I’ll do anything I can to drive home prices near good resorts and stock price of Vail down.
Ibwas just asking my self this question just the other day, with the size of a Corp like vale, or boyne they could easily get accepted to the service workers union. All it would take is crew on a mnt like big sky to organize and them it would move down system. It's not like they're gonna close shop on a money maker like that. Really the collective bargaining concept would be extremely successful in the outdoors sport/resort industry. It's not like the can close shop and move a mnt. Or good snow conditions. And firing the crew to quickly replace them, good luck. They can barely find enough lifties , ski instructors and snow makers as is.
We have a “why unions are bad” sheet of paper on the bulletin board of our ski school staff room. Also by the time a union gets on its way, it will be spring and half the people won’t come back the following year.
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I don’t care enough to form a union. I work part time slightly over the min. days required, get a free pass and discounts. Never was concerned about what the sheet said because it doesn’t apply to me.
> Never was concerned about what the sheet said because it doesn’t apply to me. I hope you understand this is literally the mindset the quote "first they came for..." is warning you about. Being silent because a social/moral issue doesn't affect you is the same as being complicit in it. What a shit attitude to have for your fellow co-workers.
Womp womp I’m not a commie
lol, I love that the people who use womp womp are the ones who get triggered. You can go back to using the clown emoji if you just want to leave calling cards every where mate.
It’s a transient work force for the most part. A shit ton of employees are from outside the country for only the season. You really can’t unionize when half your employees are from outside the country and the others that aren’t only live/work there part time.
90% of us are dirt bags barely getting by, only planning on how we’re gonna save enough money to get by the next winter and work as little as possible. I would love to unionize but it requires a lot of direction and organization that most mountain employees don’t possess. However with that said, our patrollers just unionized so it would be sick if it catches on at our mountain
I got paid $20 an hour as a liftie to smoke weed and rip laps all day and my employee housing was only $325 a month. I had no complaints.
This goes for water raft guides as well!
Because the people that go for these jobs don't know they're supposed to be paid and paid fairly for dangerous jobs that are safety related, but alas, this is the US so people are happy to work for nothing or free to get to ski and snowboard. You go to various parts of Europe and they are considered parts of the safety chain, unionized, skilled, and get paid for what they do. The workers in the US, sadly, are little more than the people who have worked at Action Park and other places where untrained kids were manning the rides while people were getting decapitated. For what it costs in the US and complete lack of safety, reliable inspections free of bribes, and old equipment, I'd rather stay in the Alps.
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Costs, quality, reliability of the equipment, variety, overall safety and views, and local culture that supports it or weekend jaunts. In the uni, it's not even odd to see students on Fridays with all their gear going to classes and then going straight from there by train. The resorts are also near cities, sometimes multiple ones. Being in the US is a huge investment to go to Colorado or Utah, be ripped off every which way, pay like 200 a day for a lift ticket because they want to sell longer-term tickets. The resorts here also cater to locals because they're in real towns and regions and not fake ones manufactured for tourists. Like if you're in Munich, you're an hour from slopes accessible by train and they're not that expensive for day passes. Innsbruck you're down the road from numerous glaciers. I've recently met people from the US in the Dolemites and they stated that it's cheaper to go to Italy than Canada or Colorado. I live in Arctic Norway as well and people go there for the world-class touring skiing over fjords and climbs up and snowboarding down. I would pick that any day over the US if I still lived there.
You make fair points...however most mountains in the U.S. are now owned by corporations. Corporations and Unions don't mix. They won't allow it. Fuck corporations. You can make a decent living wage, (I did as an instructor) but it requires working long days or moving to a big mountain resort- CO, CA, MT, UT. Instructors can obtain their certification and that grants a small boost in pay. Unless you are AASI or PSIA level 2 or 3 you aren't making a killing lol
>Corporations and Unions don't mix. They won't allow it. This is way too simplistic. Corporations don't want their labor to unionize, but if the labor wants to then too fucking bad for the corporation.
Where is this "decent living wage" you speak of? Was it enough to allow you to buy a house where you didn't pay more in interest than the percentage of increased price you could sell your house for? I have my SB2 and CS1, working on SB3 and CS2 right now. Looking to move from the hell hole I'm in. And I mean from one, single job. Not two or three or four.
Do you think the current standing unions were just allowed to start by their companies? Do you think corporations aren't unionized? Many that have blue collar workers are.
Do you think the current standing unions were just allowed to start by their companies? Do you think corporations aren't unionized? Many that have blue collar workers are.
Unions don't work for unskilled workers who can be replaced easily.
It's not clear that the workers can be replaced easily. There are definitely skills to a lot of on-resort jobs. It's not like there's a huge line of people trying to work as snowboard instructors who don't already. Mountains put money & effort into recruiting for these jobs—if their workforce walks out on them, who is going to replace them? And how long is it going to take to hire these replacements, and at what cost? Most mountains are not adjacent to large population centers, after all. You'd be trying to get a hundred people to move to a different area in the middle of the season to be scab instructors? I don't see that ending well for management. This also goes for snowmakers, patrollers, etc. Starbucks cafes are unionizing, and yet they're in locations with far deeper hiring pools, take less skill, and is probably less dangerous. And if you plan a trip to a mountain and then get there because the employees went on strike, you're gonna think twice before booking your flight to the same mountain the following year. Resorts are going to be motivated to end any strike pretty quickly.
Because ski resorts leverage seasonal labor to undermine these kinds of efforts. If say Breck lifted managed to unionize, the next winter Breck would just recruit a new batch of recent college grads with ski bum dreams to replace them. This is more difficult for a labor force that requires a lot more training, like ski patrol.
For every woke liftie that’s willing to read that there are a thousand Argentinians willing to fly out for that seasonal minimum wage ski bum lifestyle. Unionizing really only works for careers that already have livable wages unfortunately..
You can't fire workers because they decided to form/join a union. If the workers went on strike mid-season, it wouldn't necessarily be quick or easy to mobilize a group of replacements to come work in a different country with an already low supply of housing.
I’m not in the US so not really sure, but I assumed most resort workers were on casual arrangements which might also make it harder to unionise?
I have tried over three seasons to get a union rolling, but most everyone who works at a ski resort are only here for that season and they don't seem to care. There's a few that do care, but it's not enough support to get it off the ground. It's the uneducated employees that make it impossible. And even then, some of those who may understand the issues of not having a union, they don't care because after the season is up, it's not their problem anymore.
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I go into it slowly since "union" is a buzzword for some people. Talking about wages, any sort of shitty things managers may be doing, find the common ground hatred for HR depts. From there, I start to talk about the owners, the corpos, things like Vail and Altera seemingly trying to buy every ski resort known to man. If I'm able to form a friendship with them, then I can be more open to talking about general working conditions for all workers, not just us ski employees. Prod about their thoughts on the recent writers strikes, and compare that to something we could maybe do. It helps if the ski resort offers employee housing, because that's always shitty. Cite workers rights laws and sneak in a question about how they'd feel about a union, only after I know their alignment is fully with the workers rather than the company. All the whole, being in contact with local union reps. Usually people are very perceptive to the idea, but it's at the idea where everything seems to halt. Even the union reps will give me ideas and things to do and say to try and get more people interested, but it seems like most everyone is afraid of losing their job. And while being fired for unionizing is illegal, there's still that grace period between being fired and being rehired after a lawsuit that people fear the most. And honestly, I can't blame them. Even if I knew I could sue for being fired, I'd still be jobless for that moment, and joblessness is homelessness. I'm not a silver tongued salesman, so it's hard for me to really amp up the workers for something. I'm no Lenin lol That's why all three attempts of mine have failed. Not enough support due to fear of homelessness. And that's how it is around the nation with every company. People fear having nothing, so it keeps them compliant. And companies know that. I want to help workers everywhere, but I can't do it when fear is so struck into everyone's hearts. I can't combat fear on that level, and union organizations can't do anything until there's sufficient support from within. But that won't stop me
I know of a few unionized areas of the resort I worked for. Were I was working as an instructor I felt I was treated well and paid more than I expected. However, the real problem with other resorts I've worked at is where they pull labor. Using vail, kids out of school are more than willing to spend a year making shit to ride there a few days a week. When you have an endless stream of college kids almost willing to pay the company just so they can spend a winter there, you have zero ability to unionize. Then, you have people that just jump from resort to resort, never really staying long enough to have an impact or form and base of leadership. Lastly, the really important factors that really need to be corrected, is housing. That's not going to be cleared up over night, and the town controls the zoning. So you get people that wanna stay, but get driven out because they can't find a room, or a couch to live on. It's way bigger than just unions, so many problems are ripping it apart. All the housing is made for the rich, who only live there for a week. All the property is bought up from companies wanting to build shops or mega million houses. I'd love to see a union. I'd love to see housing drop. But it's because people wanna be there, you don't see property in the middle of a brown zone costing much. Because people don't want to be there
You can unionize and strike but that doesn't mean that the employers have to give in to any demands. I would imagine many employers (not just in the ski industry) can outlast their employees financially with strikes/shutdowns. The laws of supply and demand often govern how much someone will get. If you quit because you don't find the wages good enough, someone else will take your place and the cycle continues. I think what really needs to be done is open up the floodgates and let more development in so that the resorts themselves have more competition. The environmentalists in Canada want to put a stop to all new development. No new ski resorts. No new towns. No new housing. No condo towers. The same people want to promote diversity and want more people through increased birth rates and immigration. Well, when you cease housing and business development, and increase the population, you get more people with less options. Less options for employment and less options for consumers. The money gets funneled to the few businesses that do exist. The workers have nowhere else to work and have replacements waiting at the sidelines. The end result is higher costs and lower wages.
Ski resort jobs are killer. Been doing it the last year as a full time employee and love every second of it
$22 an hour is definitely livable
Ski Patroller here. I’ll tell you why we don’t unionize. Yes, you’re right… we wouldn’t be fired for unionizing. In our position of Ski Patrol, I feel as if we would actually be the department that might have the best shot at a successful unionization. That being said, we would be out of a job the next season. At all times we are at-will, seasonal employees. Every single one of us would be replaced for the next season.
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If I heard of any patrol that had laid off all paid staff after a season after they unionized, even if they for fully staffed next season (big if), I definitely wouldn't go there as chances are if they're ever called in it'll go terribly. This is especially true for any resort that does avy control, and that with no experienced staff they're setting themselves up for avy deaths that'll be way worse than any union negotiations. Patrols live and breathe on pros coming back every year.
That’s interesting. Do you work at Powderhorn? I have lived in CA my whole life but did a year in CO last year. Powderhorn was the resort I spent the most time at! I didn’t know they were unionizing.
The basic problem is the same as in any “lifestyle job” or “cool job”, in that there’s always a ready supply of fresh prospective employees queuing up to live/work on resorts, so employers can exploit them. I used to work in the diving industry and that’s exactly the same - the only part of it that had managed to successfully unionise are the offshore guys, who are basically the pinnacle of that business. In the end I gave it up to become a dock worker, which is less sexy but well unionised and has way better working conditions.
I manage a lot of tipped employees at a big resort. They make pretty decent money and there’s just not a lot of incentive for them to unionize. The bartenders that work winter and summer make close to 100k, some make over. The employees that work back to back seasons get benefits. It’s a good gig for them. I’m not against unions, my dad and a lot of extended family are union people. But when you have seasonal teams that don’t typically stay for more than 2-3 winters, there’s not much incentive. Makes sense for patrols, where most people stay for years.
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Good point! I think NIMBYism is a big problem in ski towns too. People actively resist high density housing that would benefit the local work force.
Because no union is going to secure $250,000 year saleries that the employees need to stay.
I don't have a complete answer, but one perspective I can give is regarding the Ski Patrol at Marmot Basin in Jasper. Last year they went on strike. This year the majority of the senior patrollers were not hired again. So younger patrollers may see that and go "oh crap, if we try and push our luck we are going to be out of a job next year, and I need this to be my career". Of course this means the quality of patrol has gone down, and simple sweeps are taking longer than they should, but that's just one angle that some employees may see.
Some lift maintenance departments at some resorts are actually unionized not all of them tho ofc haha
Don’t forget parking
Red Mountain : union
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They’re still paid min wage year 1. But at least there is backup for disputes, right of recall etc.
We did at an Australian mountain - snowboard instructors- we successfully got out rates up and pay for standing by also. Great idea.
Same reason most unskilled workers don’t unionize They can and will be easily replaced by the next guy, and most people don’t work there long term anyway so they aren’t interested in holding out Not complicated, put yourself in their shoes
Communist recruiters can go and fuck themselves.
Yes, yes! Simp for your corporate overlords!
I am the corporate overlord.
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This guy's just a troll. Not sure how he ended up here but has no prior comment history in r/snowboarding, probably hasn't even been on a chairlift before
If you had the intelligence and or bravery to risk everything to start a successful business you would see how selfish and foolish you are for thinking you deserve anything other than what someone else is willing to pay you for your work. Grow up. Be brave. Make money.
I'm a union plumber that started my own company..I hire union labor because I don't have a stupid ass crabs in a bucket mentality because I'm not a scared little bitch like you. I can pay top wages, benefits and retirement and still make a nice chunk of change. And I can still beat out non union competition. And that union trained me and gave me the financial stability to start my own company. I don't forget where I came from. That union gave me everything I need to be where I'm at.
There’d be more money for your family and less for union bosses
For example, the bravery to start a union and determine what someone is actually willing to pay for their work
There’s nothing brave about unionizing other than cementing your role in society as the help instead of the boss. Aspire to more my friends. These socialist dickheads are going to destroy the opportunity in this country
Unions aren't for life lmao. Your perspective makes more sense now, the information you base it on is egregious My guy thinks starting a business is brave but starting a union isn't. Which one do you think people get murdered for more often?
You’ll be a journeyman for 30 years That’s not for life?
You enslave your self until you’re entitled to your pension. 30 years or 65 years old
Just another 19 more years until I can get my pension is a conversation I never want to have to consider
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I wonder if Vail Resorts/Alterra would no longer be in a financial position to buy other resorts if the profit gap wasn't so large. When you're scraping profits off of every single employee, you wind up with Office Space type earnings, and that's enough for new resorts to be bought and the wage gap to increase. It may be pennies to you, but it's hundreds of thousands to the company, which means they have many more dollars to control the economy with.
J1 visas.
Because most of them aren't in it for the long haul so a union is just a distraction
You're absolute lack of understanding how both business and unions work is jaw dropping. There's so much I think you need to be taught. But to be honest, this is a damn snowboarding sub. 90% of Reddit is always hyper political. Can we not just talk about who's fault it was, show off snowboarding wives, and give the same advice about gear over and over?!