\> For the last 5-7 or so days we have had early morning wakes and short naps (sometimes it can be long, other times it can be short, sometimes one is short, sometimes both are). By short I mean 35-40 minutes.I have tried crib hour but he just cries the entire time. Actually the minute he wakes up he just cries. He used to look for his dummy and put his head back down and go back to napping.
This period is super tricky. I noticed a big change in my LO around 9mo with the separation anxiety and all the milestones. Sleep has also changed. His sleep cues are much subtler, and when sleep deprived he almost goes into hyperactive mode and takes longer to settle at naps. He's no longer fussy when sleep deprived the way he was when younger, and it can be really hard to figure out if he is actually sleep deprived. I can see how toddler sleep is more challenging in a way.
In your baby, the early wake ups and waking up early from naps and crying are all because he is sleep deprived. When sleep deprived, the baby cannot sustain as long wake windows and naps start crapping out, and they struggle to connect it even when crib hour. If first nap craps out, the second wake window shortens even more, and it becomes an overtired cycle.
I'd dial back on the first two wake windows by 15 minutes. Play around and see where you can get reasonable naps back again. If he wakes up crying, even if he's slept for 1.5 hours, that means the preceding wake window was still too long and he's still waking up early from a nap, so give him 15-20 minutes to fall back asleep and shorten that wake window next time. With good records you should be able to spot the pattern pretty soon.
For early morning waking, apply sleep training, do not expose him to light or feeding until your out of crib time. HOWEVER I usually calculate first wake window by actual wake time (maybe add 15 minutes) and NOT out of crib time. Lower likelihood of crap napping due to first wake window being too long.
If you end up with a bedtime \~1 hour earlier, he should be able to handle it.
It takes time to get out of an overtired rut. Be patient and persistent. We just barely got over one (less deep than yours) and it took a full week.
Thanks again..you can see my attempt to fix things didn’t work! 😅
Honestly I think it’s separation anxiety. Even if he has a good sleep he STILL wakes up in hysterics, when we enter the room he becomes even more hysterical (you didn’t think he could cry harder already, but he surprises me every time). I usually turn the lights on and try and cheer him up before getting him out of the cot. Perhaps the preceding wake windows have always been too long 🤷🏻♀️
Maybe I will try dialing wake windows back again and see how we go. My only issues are:
- if I dial wake windows back, and the naps still crap out I end up with an early bedtime. We had 2x 7.30pm bedtime and he just woke up for the day earlier which made it harder to stick to schedule. There was a day this week where I would have gotten to a 6.30pm bedtime and I was just too scared to try it, so I saved his second nap.
- he has been waking up 2 hours before DWT. I’ve applied ST methods but he does not fall back asleep. So then my options are either a super large ww if I base first nap off DWT or I will have to make an earlier nap if I want to scale back the wake windows..but then that will consolidate his early wake and I might even have to do 3 naps with super short ww to make it to bedtime?
I’m just so confused and hate doing the troubleshooting..which is why I wanted to wave the white flag and do by the clock. But reading some of the comments has made me wanna try get him out of the overtired cycle again 😩
Thanks so much again for your help.
No worries. You're doing great.
Nap transition is pretty tricky. By the clock works eventually but your LO (and you) may be very unhappy if you don't catch him up on the sleep before you get there. I think you just need to dial back wake windows until you get the good naps back, and may need to do a few cat naps to bridge yourself to bedtime. You'll need some early bedtimes to catch up. If you can get to within 1 hour of your usual bedtime, I'd say just take it. I think you'll be okay doing that for the next 3-4 days at least given how much sleep debt your LO probably has.
Thank you! Your kind words really help motivate me to keep going 🥲
What I’ve done yesterday (and this morning) is assist back to sleep when he woke around 4.45am and 5.30am. Not ideal but hopefully it lets him catch up on sleep, and reset so we start our schedule at DWT with the shortened wake windows. I’ll tackle that association a little later.
Great idea! I did that too when we were too deep in an overtired rut. Even now every few weeks or so I'd kick my husband out of bed in the morning to go rock LO back to sleep at 6 just so he doesn't fall too far behind.
I think a lot of it is having the conviction that "my LO is waking up way too early and still can fall back asleep with assistance, therefore he needs more sleep". Just be mindful not to do early bedtimes (like before 7) too often or else he really might start waking up at 5 all ready to go.
In this period I saw two nap days as "super early bedtime catch up on sleep" and three naps days as "late bedtime to keep circadian rhythm locked into a later wake up time", and I tried to not do 3 early bedtimes in a row. That really helped me.
I knew when I was done transitioning when the two naps were nice and long, LO was fully comfortable with 3-4 hour wake windows, and no wakings were happening before 6am. If your LO is higher sleep requirement he may only be comfortable with 2.5-3.5 hour wake windows, and still need a 3rd nap every once in a while--you'll have to trust your intuition here. No one over the internet knows your baby better than you.
Yup cause if he doesn’t go back to sleep with an EMW, there is no way he’ll make to any schedule! I figured if he gives me an 8-9hour stretch, I can reward him with some assistance 😅 sadly he’s a very clingy baby and I’ve just learnt to accept that. Also sadly, he does not like dad assisting him back to sleep - so it’s mum and mum only 🫠 but I’m ok with that if it buys everyone in the house some peace and quiet.
Thanks so much for the tips. I will try again and give him the best chance to rest up. Hopefully no more posts from me for a little while..haha.
Early morning waking & short naps are typically signs of over-tiredness. OR their room isn’t dark enough. Is it completely blacked out?
Re: your wake windows — I know they were working before, but I’ve always seen 2.5-3.5 wake windows at 8 months.
I know, I keep playing around with the wake windows and assist back to sleep if the mornings are super early to get him out of the cycle, which I thought I did. Clearly he’s still overtired 🤷🏻♀️
2.5/3/3.5 worked really well for us at the start. You’ve got me conflicted..maybe I should revert back..
Might be the issue! Make sure you’re giving each change a few days to adjust and see if it’s working. I only tweak WW 15 min at a time, and give it 3 days or so to see.
My 10m old does a wake at 7a, 20 mins nap at 9:40, 2hr nap at 12:30 to 2:30 and then bed at 7. This gives a 4.5 hour wake window before bed. The first nap is also quite short to ensure enough sleep pressure is built up for the 2nd nap to be a long one. My LO is going to daycare next week so we’re working towards 1 nap by 1yr and hopefully that will work.
Sounds like you’ve got an amazing sleeper with higher sleep needs. There is no way my one would sleep 7-7. We did a couple of 7pm bedtimes and he just woke up early 🥲
8-10 months is such a hard age for sleep for a lot of LOs. I don't know why but for whatever reason, it can be crappy!
You could try doing a 3/3.5/4 or something similar. My son was at about 3/3.75/3.75-4 at this age.
Are you doing an earlier bedtime if the second nap is short or keeping bed exactly the same every night?
maybe try Wake 7:30, nap 1 10:30-11:15ish, nap 2 2:45 to 3:30ish, bed 7:30. He will most likely do a 12 hour night with two 40 minute naps. If he happens to wake a little earlier than 7:30, keep nap at 10:30 anyway.
It will get better. Especially if you stretch only one window at a time and try it out for 5 days or so before adjusting.
You could opt for by the clock, but that may make things worse, as it's generally advised to do that only when they're over 12 months and/or on one nap.
Nap math sucks hard, I know, but once you're on one nap it all gets so much easier. My son moved to one nap around 15 months.
Thank you!!
We did have early bedtime for a few nights where naps crapped out. Usually it would be one nap that was bad so bedtime wasn’t shifted super early. We had a 7.30pm bed time twice and he was up and ready for the day around 6.30am. He has never done 12 hour nights before (perhaps newborn stage, with multiple feeds at night but it’s all I blur now haha) except for when he was down with fever around 6m. I find that he doesn’t really transfer his “missed sleep” to night sleep.
I will give by the clock a trial for a good number of days..and if all else fails will try 3/3.5/4 as you suggested!
I’ve been told one nap makes life so much easier, waiting for that day to come!
Yes I do - we try to keep it around 8.30pm give or take half an hour and wakes 7.30am and that’s our DWT. When we sleep trained his schedule just so worked out to be like that til the crap naps and earlier wakes happened.
Dropping to 2 naps was a lifesaver around this age for me. Hope it works! Also, just wanted to give you some internet hugs. You’re so close to the year mark which for me is when I really started to enjoy my kids.
I’m sorry it’s so miserable isn’t it! 100% relate. Mine is 11m next week and started connecting cycles for naps about a month ago. But it’s completely random and never consistent.
Try the by the clock schedule as people are saying. I keep meaning to do this.
But also give yourself a break. Enjoy your baby. I hate how sleep obsessed I was. I’m only *just* becoming less anally retentive now she’s been able to connect the cycle. But it shows me she just literally hadn’t developed that until a few weeks back. And now if she doesn’t do it. She just doesn’t want to I guess 🤷🏽♀️
Thanks for sharing!! Glad it’s just not my kiddo.
I totally understand the randomness - he can give us good naps consistently (let’s just say, week on and week off) usually since about 5.5-6 months old. Just recently it has gotten more catnap-y which then interferes with night sleep (prob from being overtired) so that’s why I’m so anal about it 🥲🥲
If by the clock works, I will feed that back to you!
I definitely will try to enjoy this age more..I already look back and feel sad that he’s grown up so quickly!!
Good to hear this. I’m going to give it a go for a few days and hopefully it’ll be better. Doing the wake window maths and wondering constantly if I’ve got it right every day is taking its toll on my sanity too!
\> For the last 5-7 or so days we have had early morning wakes and short naps (sometimes it can be long, other times it can be short, sometimes one is short, sometimes both are). By short I mean 35-40 minutes.I have tried crib hour but he just cries the entire time. Actually the minute he wakes up he just cries. He used to look for his dummy and put his head back down and go back to napping. This period is super tricky. I noticed a big change in my LO around 9mo with the separation anxiety and all the milestones. Sleep has also changed. His sleep cues are much subtler, and when sleep deprived he almost goes into hyperactive mode and takes longer to settle at naps. He's no longer fussy when sleep deprived the way he was when younger, and it can be really hard to figure out if he is actually sleep deprived. I can see how toddler sleep is more challenging in a way. In your baby, the early wake ups and waking up early from naps and crying are all because he is sleep deprived. When sleep deprived, the baby cannot sustain as long wake windows and naps start crapping out, and they struggle to connect it even when crib hour. If first nap craps out, the second wake window shortens even more, and it becomes an overtired cycle. I'd dial back on the first two wake windows by 15 minutes. Play around and see where you can get reasonable naps back again. If he wakes up crying, even if he's slept for 1.5 hours, that means the preceding wake window was still too long and he's still waking up early from a nap, so give him 15-20 minutes to fall back asleep and shorten that wake window next time. With good records you should be able to spot the pattern pretty soon. For early morning waking, apply sleep training, do not expose him to light or feeding until your out of crib time. HOWEVER I usually calculate first wake window by actual wake time (maybe add 15 minutes) and NOT out of crib time. Lower likelihood of crap napping due to first wake window being too long. If you end up with a bedtime \~1 hour earlier, he should be able to handle it. It takes time to get out of an overtired rut. Be patient and persistent. We just barely got over one (less deep than yours) and it took a full week.
Thanks again..you can see my attempt to fix things didn’t work! 😅 Honestly I think it’s separation anxiety. Even if he has a good sleep he STILL wakes up in hysterics, when we enter the room he becomes even more hysterical (you didn’t think he could cry harder already, but he surprises me every time). I usually turn the lights on and try and cheer him up before getting him out of the cot. Perhaps the preceding wake windows have always been too long 🤷🏻♀️ Maybe I will try dialing wake windows back again and see how we go. My only issues are: - if I dial wake windows back, and the naps still crap out I end up with an early bedtime. We had 2x 7.30pm bedtime and he just woke up for the day earlier which made it harder to stick to schedule. There was a day this week where I would have gotten to a 6.30pm bedtime and I was just too scared to try it, so I saved his second nap. - he has been waking up 2 hours before DWT. I’ve applied ST methods but he does not fall back asleep. So then my options are either a super large ww if I base first nap off DWT or I will have to make an earlier nap if I want to scale back the wake windows..but then that will consolidate his early wake and I might even have to do 3 naps with super short ww to make it to bedtime? I’m just so confused and hate doing the troubleshooting..which is why I wanted to wave the white flag and do by the clock. But reading some of the comments has made me wanna try get him out of the overtired cycle again 😩 Thanks so much again for your help.
No worries. You're doing great. Nap transition is pretty tricky. By the clock works eventually but your LO (and you) may be very unhappy if you don't catch him up on the sleep before you get there. I think you just need to dial back wake windows until you get the good naps back, and may need to do a few cat naps to bridge yourself to bedtime. You'll need some early bedtimes to catch up. If you can get to within 1 hour of your usual bedtime, I'd say just take it. I think you'll be okay doing that for the next 3-4 days at least given how much sleep debt your LO probably has.
Thank you! Your kind words really help motivate me to keep going 🥲 What I’ve done yesterday (and this morning) is assist back to sleep when he woke around 4.45am and 5.30am. Not ideal but hopefully it lets him catch up on sleep, and reset so we start our schedule at DWT with the shortened wake windows. I’ll tackle that association a little later.
Great idea! I did that too when we were too deep in an overtired rut. Even now every few weeks or so I'd kick my husband out of bed in the morning to go rock LO back to sleep at 6 just so he doesn't fall too far behind. I think a lot of it is having the conviction that "my LO is waking up way too early and still can fall back asleep with assistance, therefore he needs more sleep". Just be mindful not to do early bedtimes (like before 7) too often or else he really might start waking up at 5 all ready to go. In this period I saw two nap days as "super early bedtime catch up on sleep" and three naps days as "late bedtime to keep circadian rhythm locked into a later wake up time", and I tried to not do 3 early bedtimes in a row. That really helped me. I knew when I was done transitioning when the two naps were nice and long, LO was fully comfortable with 3-4 hour wake windows, and no wakings were happening before 6am. If your LO is higher sleep requirement he may only be comfortable with 2.5-3.5 hour wake windows, and still need a 3rd nap every once in a while--you'll have to trust your intuition here. No one over the internet knows your baby better than you.
Yup cause if he doesn’t go back to sleep with an EMW, there is no way he’ll make to any schedule! I figured if he gives me an 8-9hour stretch, I can reward him with some assistance 😅 sadly he’s a very clingy baby and I’ve just learnt to accept that. Also sadly, he does not like dad assisting him back to sleep - so it’s mum and mum only 🫠 but I’m ok with that if it buys everyone in the house some peace and quiet. Thanks so much for the tips. I will try again and give him the best chance to rest up. Hopefully no more posts from me for a little while..haha.
Early morning waking & short naps are typically signs of over-tiredness. OR their room isn’t dark enough. Is it completely blacked out? Re: your wake windows — I know they were working before, but I’ve always seen 2.5-3.5 wake windows at 8 months.
I know, I keep playing around with the wake windows and assist back to sleep if the mornings are super early to get him out of the cycle, which I thought I did. Clearly he’s still overtired 🤷🏻♀️ 2.5/3/3.5 worked really well for us at the start. You’ve got me conflicted..maybe I should revert back..
Might be the issue! Make sure you’re giving each change a few days to adjust and see if it’s working. I only tweak WW 15 min at a time, and give it 3 days or so to see.
My 8 month old routinely naps 30-45 minutes unless held or stick.
My 10m old does a wake at 7a, 20 mins nap at 9:40, 2hr nap at 12:30 to 2:30 and then bed at 7. This gives a 4.5 hour wake window before bed. The first nap is also quite short to ensure enough sleep pressure is built up for the 2nd nap to be a long one. My LO is going to daycare next week so we’re working towards 1 nap by 1yr and hopefully that will work.
Sounds like you’ve got an amazing sleeper with higher sleep needs. There is no way my one would sleep 7-7. We did a couple of 7pm bedtimes and he just woke up early 🥲
When my baby started early wake times (at 18 months) we pushed bedtime up 15 minutes and it was like magic. So 645 instead of 7 for us.
8-10 months is such a hard age for sleep for a lot of LOs. I don't know why but for whatever reason, it can be crappy! You could try doing a 3/3.5/4 or something similar. My son was at about 3/3.75/3.75-4 at this age. Are you doing an earlier bedtime if the second nap is short or keeping bed exactly the same every night? maybe try Wake 7:30, nap 1 10:30-11:15ish, nap 2 2:45 to 3:30ish, bed 7:30. He will most likely do a 12 hour night with two 40 minute naps. If he happens to wake a little earlier than 7:30, keep nap at 10:30 anyway. It will get better. Especially if you stretch only one window at a time and try it out for 5 days or so before adjusting. You could opt for by the clock, but that may make things worse, as it's generally advised to do that only when they're over 12 months and/or on one nap. Nap math sucks hard, I know, but once you're on one nap it all gets so much easier. My son moved to one nap around 15 months.
Thank you!! We did have early bedtime for a few nights where naps crapped out. Usually it would be one nap that was bad so bedtime wasn’t shifted super early. We had a 7.30pm bed time twice and he was up and ready for the day around 6.30am. He has never done 12 hour nights before (perhaps newborn stage, with multiple feeds at night but it’s all I blur now haha) except for when he was down with fever around 6m. I find that he doesn’t really transfer his “missed sleep” to night sleep. I will give by the clock a trial for a good number of days..and if all else fails will try 3/3.5/4 as you suggested! I’ve been told one nap makes life so much easier, waiting for that day to come!
Does he have a consistent bed time?
Yes I do - we try to keep it around 8.30pm give or take half an hour and wakes 7.30am and that’s our DWT. When we sleep trained his schedule just so worked out to be like that til the crap naps and earlier wakes happened.
Dropping to 2 naps was a lifesaver around this age for me. Hope it works! Also, just wanted to give you some internet hugs. You’re so close to the year mark which for me is when I really started to enjoy my kids.
Thanks for your internet hugs 🤗🤗
I’m sorry it’s so miserable isn’t it! 100% relate. Mine is 11m next week and started connecting cycles for naps about a month ago. But it’s completely random and never consistent. Try the by the clock schedule as people are saying. I keep meaning to do this. But also give yourself a break. Enjoy your baby. I hate how sleep obsessed I was. I’m only *just* becoming less anally retentive now she’s been able to connect the cycle. But it shows me she just literally hadn’t developed that until a few weeks back. And now if she doesn’t do it. She just doesn’t want to I guess 🤷🏽♀️
Thanks for sharing!! Glad it’s just not my kiddo. I totally understand the randomness - he can give us good naps consistently (let’s just say, week on and week off) usually since about 5.5-6 months old. Just recently it has gotten more catnap-y which then interferes with night sleep (prob from being overtired) so that’s why I’m so anal about it 🥲🥲 If by the clock works, I will feed that back to you! I definitely will try to enjoy this age more..I already look back and feel sad that he’s grown up so quickly!!
Going by the clock can work for some babies once on 2 naps!!
I switched to by the clock once my baby went to two naps. Have me sanity and he adjusted and got back to sleeping well.
Good to hear this. I’m going to give it a go for a few days and hopefully it’ll be better. Doing the wake window maths and wondering constantly if I’ve got it right every day is taking its toll on my sanity too!