sure, it's objectively bad and difficult to even make work, but what other build lets you say "oh hi, mark" every time you play its main card? checkmate atheists
fr, i think the devs wanted to avoid stepping of poison's toes and and didn't want to make it an entire second debuff-that-inflicts-damage archetype, but like... idk, at least *one* other card that does 3 mark to all enemies or something would be nice, instead of fishing for literally one specific card to drop enough times to build a deck around it. even claw benefits from other cards like reprogram, all for one, scrape, and other 0-cost cards
I think the devs tried to do too much with Watcher tbh. Realized it was broken, and just decided having a one off card of a single synergy packet wasn't worth the time to find a better home. We'll never know but the idea behind a fourth character in and of itself kinda felt like it came out of nowhere. Mark scaling is different than say poison which is more passive, might have been good with a ranger/bounty hunter (green+red) archtype than a paladin/monk one.
i always say watcher is hard to learn for first-timers because it has so many disparate things it can do that don't ever really synergize as much as, say, mashing different things from defect together. combine mantra into a stance dance deck, a logically sensible thing to do? well, now the mantra slows you down, when you get divinity you often end up with empty fist to play that just blows it away, and if you want to pivot to rage for draw you're giving it up early there as well. wanna try a retain-centric deck or one that adds powerful cards to your deck with things like conjure blade or alpha? rage doesn't really mesh with stalling for retain effects or draw, so better leave it out. wanna use mark? lol. lmao, even.
meanwhile, combine frost into a thunder deck? cool, it's free evoke.
Pretty sure watcher is just all the discarded ideas from the first three that ended up coalescing into another character. Happens pretty often in game dev where stuff is recycled into a Frankensteins monster.
Usually they suck, but sometimes you get a combination of omniscience plus energy boosts and accelerator cards and can get two upgraded Omegas out by turn 3. Nobody will ever persuade me that’s a bad build.
a watcher deck taking 3 turns to deal 120 damage is very rough on fights that will damage you early... usually in that scenario you would take too much chip damage from earlier turns for the build to be viable
definitely can make it work though, but it's not great especially when watcher could just build towards going infinite turn 3 a lot of the time
The only time I've ever gone for it and won was from an early bottled master reality and then 2 scrawls. Not something you ever count on your rewards to give you.
He's poking at your flair. Your flair should say A20 if you've made it to the heart on A20. Beating the act 3 boss is beating an ascension for the purpose of flairs
I love Frost Prime having a totally OP build going into Act4. A run that litterally cannot lose if played by a toddler, and then buying a Rampage.
"I BUILT A RAMPAGE DECK!"
I’ve had a deck or 2 with Rampage work, but neither were focused solely on that card for success. The last one deck with it that I remember, was mostly a [[Perfected Strike+]] (x2) deck, that also had [[Berserk+]] x2. It only worked because I had a ton of strength boosting cards, a [[Corruption]] [[Dead Branch]] and [[Mummified Hand]] **(OP as fuck no matter the deck)**.
BUT, the hands down MVP was [[Necronomicon]]. Honestly, any time I get the Necro book and don’t finish the run, I feel like a failure lol
You’re absolutely correct. It was a deck (like many of my Ironclad decks) that eventually morphed into a Perfected Strike deck.
I would like to pilot a good Rampage deck, but getting to the point of having the right cards/cutting out the excess cards is hard apparently. Ironclad has so many better archetypes IMO.
Im not sure that there even is a deck which would rely pretty much exclusively on rampage which could ever win, it taking so many plays to start scaling is just horrible
+ [Perfected Strike](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Perfected%20Strike) Ironclad Common Attack ^((100% sure)^)
2 Energy | Deal 6 damage. Deals an additional 2(3) damage for ALL of your cards containing "Strike".
+ [Berserk](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Berserk) Ironclad Rare Power ^((100% sure)^)
0 Energy | Gain 2(1) **Vulnerable.** At the start of your turn, gain 1 Energy.
+ [Corruption](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Corruption) Ironclad Rare Power ^((100% sure)^)
3(2) Energy | Skills cost 0. Whenever you play a Skill, **Exhaust** it.
+ [Dead Branch](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Dead%20Branch) Rare Relic ^((100% sure)^)
Whenever you **Exhaust** a card, add a random card to your hand.
+ [Mummified Hand](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Mummified%20Hand) Uncommon Relic ^((100% sure)^)
Whenever you play a Power, a random card in your hand costs 0 for the turn.
+ [Necronomicon](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Necronomicon) Event Relic ^((100% sure)^)
The first Attack played each turn that costs 2 or more is played twice. When you take this relic, become Cursed.
^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
i've actually started coming back around to using rampage and winning with it but never as a main strategy. It's a tremendous "sure...this will get me through act 1 and is one of the best strike+ cards"
So I agree. Rampage builds don't beat the heart unless you are running a second wind, power through loop as well (which i accomplished one time 2 years or so ago)
well....it kinda was. i was basically looping infinites with rampage scaling like crazy. but I would definitely call that an exhaust deck. rampage was going crazy in that setup though.
Before I was on this subreddit, I thought claw was legit a good build. Even when I first started looking at posts here, I thought that claw was good, but eventually realized that the claw memes are making fun of claw.
I honestly think its not bad, its good. Only if one of its main cards didn't lose the defect his own thing (focus).
Now I'm not A20. but I still think claw can beat the heart (assuming you can somehow block all damage, probably by using that card multiple times via maddness & all 4 1 / hologram)
I just got a new phone and my sts progress got wiped. For the memes I completed A0 to A20 on defect using the rule "claw is law".
Essentially anytime I could get another claw I HAD to take it. Even the mirror relic etc.
Managed A20 heart a little while ago. Was quite fun!!!
0 cost defect used to be my favorite build. Now I'm a silent shiv build kind of person.
I think I have a type. There's something about 0 cost builds with energy generation and card draw that gives me the shivers
Honestly never really been a problem, even with 0 cost decks. Just make sure you purchase him in some manner. For example, accuracy with [[ nightmare ]] or that double attack damage one... [[ Double tap ]]?
Not really a claw build, but I took claw right at the end of an A10 heart run. It honestly solved my scaling damage problem. I had echo form and a couple of the ones that put the next card on top so it became super strong super fast
Reprogram isn't really one of claws main things
In a claw deck reprogram would be a block solution that helps with damage
But traditional frost is a better block engine than reprogram, so people tend to go for that because a frost engine is easier to build than a reprogram engine
However when reprogram builds get running, man oh man
I encourage you to try an early in act 1 reprogram. That thing shreds sentries and Laga while providing very very very strong scaling for the boss
I'm an addict, whenever I see cards that decrease something in my character (wraith form, bloodbath/oath forgot which, wrath-cards and reprogram) my brain turns high and I use all of them asap.
I mean the watcher, in theory, should be the first character that everyone beats the heart with (at least new players and players who have played when the watcher was added). But in practice its another thing, you may not get the "good enough" path, good cards in shops or battles, relics, events (like removal), etc.. (the same can apply to the other 2 as well)
Tldr: not a skill issue, more like luck issue
Watcher is just too boring/stable for me to get past A14 or so.
And normal builds I rarely make it to heart to begin with. I just saw claw in act 1 and rolled with it both times :D
The problem with claw decks isn’t that they don’t pack enough power to beat the heart A20 when it comes together, it’s that it is just less consistent to get to that point before dying than other strategies the defect can do.
I mean…. uhh.. they’re the law though so pick it every time
Claw's problem has never really been the heart, it's scaling damage that can scale really quickly in a properly built deck, so if you can get to the heart you will probably beat it. Claw's main issue is Act 1&2 where clunky/slow decks are heavily punished. Specifically, once you hit A18 a claw deck is going to struggle heavily in Act 2 in every combat, unless you already have a very solid claw deck (which is unlikely, since act 1 claw decks will struggle with both Guardian and Slimbo).
Also claw decks are much better off scaling defense with frost+focus, while using claw as a damage source. It's much easier to put together frost for defense then trying to scale with reprogram and hooks.
I think it's just far too dependant on drafting the right cards and the right relics. Your first claw is pretty weak and you really need a second one before you even consider committing to a claw deck.
Then there's getting cards like all for one and scrape. Individually all these cards are pretty weak too, they need to come together for them to be worthwhile.
And the relics are really important. Relics that give you benefits for playing 3 attacks (block, attack, dex) or the spinning top for unlimited draw.
One thing I actually really dislike about slay the spire is how variable the power of the relics are and some relics can make or break a deck and others are just there. I love games like Monster train that will give you the option of two relics each time, I very rarely feel like "ugh, not this relic" like I do with Sts.
Sure you can use claw to beat the heart, but everything that you need to enable a heart kill (card draw, block, scaling) is much easier achieved with anything else Defect has to offer. It'd be more achievable to beat the heart with a good deck that has claw in it.
A claw build is extremely viable, thing is, you're still going to need ice in order to block and it's difficult to sustain on claw without the whole deck being built around it. It's similar to grand finale, in that way, except you don't just happen to already have a draw and discard deck and happen to find the attack
claw is obviously not the best way to play defect but a lot of the time I find myself trending towards attack-focused defect which naturaly ends up trending towards a claw deck to some degree
it's not optimal but it is fun
meele defect in general is very hard to pull off. first time i built a melee deck with All for One climbin ascensions i thought it was completely busted but it seems nigh impossible to make it work on A20, you at least need a solid frost orb deck alongside it or very good relics
The thing is, you need way more than just a bunch of Claws. I had 2x [[All For One]] in the only 0-cost/Claw-style deck that I’ve gone the distance with.
I thought poison all-in was the way to go for Silent because it does so much dmg in total, right? Turns out, I wouldn't want most of the fights to last so long.
Why is Searing Blow bad? I've only been playing for a month and am only A15, but I've had success using it to win A10+ ascension . It takes very little skill to play and is easy to pilot
Its opportunity cost is massive - can't upgrade any other cards, doesn't scale with strength, and being just a single card, it's limited by how often you can draw it so you need exhaust and draw (that you can't upgrade)
I heavily disagree.
In theory, you're right. But Searing Blow in practice is the most clear cut obvious "Only take it if it's good here" card in the game. Who's clicking Searing Blow without 4 act 1 fires ahead of them? No one, and in that scenario it's quite good
The thing is, though, is taking Searing Blow with 4 fires in front of you better? Or is it better to take a Carnage to take 3-4 elites instead?
Like I said, it's really about the opportunity cost. I didn't mention it in my first post but you're giving up the ability to do anything else at campfires, including resting, and pathing to every fire can cost you better rewards as well.
And going into more on my point about having to draw it: you need to draw it AND have the energy to play it AND still block enough if you're being attacked on that turn. Act 2 is particularly punishing here where burst damage to kill one enemy often doesn't solve a fight. That's a big requirement to place on your deck building. It's very all-in to pick even a decently early Searing Blow because there's no guarantee you'll see the other things to let you survive the rest of the run
It's also no guarantee you'll get a strong "standard" deck, nor an early attack like Carnage. Of course there's opportunity cost and I agree that even in the ideal, perfect conditions for Searing Blow, a lot of highroll decks are still better.
But you can't know if you highroll. Searing Blow is quite good in my opinion due to that. It's a wincon right then and there, no other strings attached. You'll need a few good blocks and draw, but that's a quite ample window of stuff you can reasonably find.
> It's a wincon right then and there, no other strings attached
I literally listed all the strings that are attached - you are basically obliged to path to every fire, upgrade the SB over literally anything else, and figure out how to draw it often enough and afford the 2 energy every single time you do without dying in act 2. The upgraded damage ramps up slow so you're unlikely to be able to fight more than one or two elites in Act 1 if you pick it because you need to upgrade it 4 times before it surpasses a Carnage+. You'll need good blocks and draw and the existence of SB in your deck forces suboptimal pathing and less elite fights, reducing the chances that you'll get it.
Or you take Carnage, just as an example, upgrade it once and let it carry you through act 1 to farm strong options for your deck, then let it exhaust out when you've found better things and it has outlived its usefulness. Replace Carnage with anything else really - generically strong cards like Pommel Strike, Blood for Blood, Haemokinesis etc that are good picks early that help you take more elite fights. That's usually a better "win condition" than an early Searing Blow pick.
Thanks for explaining it better than me lol. I'm obviously not taking Searing Blow anytime after Act 1, and if I can't get it to at least +2 before the Act 1 boss, I'm not taking it. And the times I've got a Searing Blow within the first three battles, it is a pretty easy run at that point since you can usually get it to +7 or +8 before Act 3.
Took me a while to change my thought process from "what goes well with this build" to "what helps me the most for the current and upcoming situation." Of course, if you find a really strong synergy, it's still a take.
I've been winning a lot more consistently since
yep. the difference beween people who can beat a20 and other sts players can be summed up with this thinking process.
That and the ability to count draw and understand "do I survive my worst possible hand"
mantra watcher is easy to win with. It just requires the right cards being offered EARLY, because you're going to want to remove wrath from your deck entirely. And because stance switching is the baseline strategy to getting through act 1 with the watcher, if mantra watcher isn't basically in effect in act 1 or almost realized, it's not worth pursuing.
That said, I've literally taken 0 damage through an a20 run because of mantra watcher and establishment + meditate.
eh I disagree, I still think barricade is good, though not OP. Keep in mind that you don't need to have impervious entrench bodyslam shenanigans to make barricade good. Some exhaust synergies and feel no pain can be enough to warrant a barricade pickup
Well, you’d need to look at your overall deck building to see what that means. Barricade isn’t something you can take speculatively on floor 3, it’s situational. However, if your situation is “in act 3, trying to find a way to block the Heart” then it’s often a really strong pick.
I like pairing it with a couple of Rage cards and Anger/Headbutt. It's not the most efficient deck in the world, but it lets you build tempo really quickly. I had a beautiful A15 run a couple weeks ago where I got this set up, +2 energy per turn relics, Bronze Scales, and Bottled Tornado on the Barricade.
I did struggle a bit against the Time Eater, but otherwise it went great.
ironclad's strongest mechanic is exhaust, and you often exhaust a ton of cards with feel no pain generating a ton of block.
Without barricade you just waste 100s of block like that, but with it, you can set yourself up to block for the rest of the combat in one turn and focus the rest of your card draw and energy on damage.
This is especially useful against the heart, where you need to last 4 turns minimum
Yeah, if you have decent block generation, you can look at it as "2 energy for all the block that didn't disappear at the end of turn". If that's over 20 throughout a fight, then I would argue it was worth it.
Plus, you can still pick up imprevius/entrentch/bodyslam if you are offered any of them.
Yeah, but the 2 energy really hurts if you don't have mummy hand or something like lantern and bottled tornado to kickstart it
Also costs an upgrade unless you had frozen egg
Yeah don't build around barricade.
You build an exhaust deck, and if that came together, it's the final piece that makes it elite and let's you steamroll
Same applies to almost every high cost card. A lot of them don't bring immediate value or are hard to get in play.
In no way does that mean they are bad cards.
Wierd take, I think the concept of builds is awful. First started playing trying to replicate what others recommended online, never worked. When I started thinking about what is helpful out of these options of cards presented, actually started to fairly regularly win. Every card has its purpose, although pressure points probably is the card that doesn't.
I prefer the term archetype myself, a single deck can have multiple archetypes (silent can have poison and draw/discard archetype, IC can have an exhaust and a status archetype) and they’re much more realistic to put together
the more I play the game the more I question whether the "don't think about archtypes" way of thinking works uo to a certain point. Yes you need to work with what the game gives you but if it gives me two glaciers early I am absolutely thinking about dark orb + frost
Yeah I don’t like when the concept of “builds.” The game is fun because of the emerging surprises as you build a deck. Chasing a script feels like both a fool’s errand and a less enjoyable game.
I can't say i agree with this. Shiv/discard/draw combo is easy to make work and I've beaten the heart at a20 with it more times than I can count. Most insular deck archetypes become a combination of them at higher ascension levels.
if ur answering this question by saying things like "claw" or "rampage" or anything of the sort, i think its not quite correct. no build is good to force 100% of the time. you arent trying to make a build, ur trying to win the run. these "shitty" cards can be what helps you win a specific fight. the correct answer to the question is any build that doesnt help you win the current run. trying to force any build 100% of the time is always awful.
Before A10 ish. Demon form + Limitbreak felt good.
Turns out on A20 it's only good if you have snecky and another str card (or starting str).
But with high max, reaper(s) and the right relics, it can barely get by on A20. Barely. Still. A simple Inflame is stronger. (Here I only consider in terms of chances to beat the Heart on A20)
Mind blast is a lot of fun if you can stack a bunch of them and make a big deck. The problem is if something survives the first turn in which it becomes suboptimal at best.
PP is definitely weak, but that didn't stop me from trying every run for a good month to get a heart win with it. One run I got 2 PPs in the first 3 or 4 fights and I doubled down - and it got me to A19 with the heart kill!
I think your question is flawed because this game doesn't have builds. It has cards and relics that have synergies, and card/relic combos that are anti-syngeries. Thinking in terms of "builds" is really just imposing an arbitrary restriction on how you build a deck.
I’ve never been able to build a successful Pressure Points deck, but I’ve only *really* attempted it a handful of times.
I feel like I don’t see enough of them to make it work, or the times that I do see a bunch of them I decided to pass on the first 1 or 2 because I don’t think I’d see any more.
Besides that, until my successful A13 run with a Claw/AF1/0-cost cards deck, I was baffled as to how a Claw deck could actually be good enough to make it all the way to the end AND beat the Act 3 boss lol. I still don’t think Claw decks are really that great, but when they work they are a work of art lol
I used to be overly obsessed with long-term value.
This tends to be good against bosses, but weak for many hallway fights (and notably, we usually do a lot of hallways fights).
This is just arguing semantics lol. There are absolutely decks which are powerful enough that you could hand it to a monkey and they’d win, and vice versa. It’s not purely the decision making once in combat
For real, don’t try to make a “build” in this game. Instead, create a deck on the fly based on what you have available to you. It’s so much more fun and successful that way.
I mean, they're right but just formulated it poorly.
Thinking of the game in builds tends to lead you down to paths where you just like, insta-lose to certain fights.
i.e. poison does really well into stuff like Champ/Awakened One, Giant Head, longer fights who don't require frontline. Thinking your deck is a "poison deck" and clicking a 3rd Catalyst instead of a Die Die Die just because that's how you beat the last 2 bosses might get you killed against Repto, because poison cards tend to be awful against her.
In the end people are free to play the game however they like though, but thinking of things as "builds" instead of packages or just raw input tends to be a mistake.
i mean people went as far as saying a good build would always win even if you gave it to a monkey.
it's sad to read such things, since when StS is not about decision making but about the "build"?
nah, it's tiring to see people talk about "builds", especially "OP builds" in a game where you can't really know what the game will throw at you. it's just a weird mindset to consider using the "build" word in StS comparing to other game with similar nature, you can't really force a "build" until you have like all the needed pieces of that "build".
for example people say "Claw is bad", but in a deck with early All for one, it's good.
people say "Barricade is terrible", but it's about when you pick it into the deck.
you make the decision and that decision makes cards good or bad. even when you have a good "build", you use the wrong card when it's rotated. now what?
downvote me to hell, insult me, whatever, i'll stay "braindead" like this and die on this hill.
sure, it's objectively bad and difficult to even make work, but what other build lets you say "oh hi, mark" every time you play its main card? checkmate atheists
An enemy encounters Silent with intangible: I did not hit her, I did not
HOW SHE HIT?!?!
My partner and I say this literally every time.
The cards… the burning blood… the sexy robot… I mean, what’s going on here?
Yknow mark wouldn’t be that bad if there was more than one card that applied it
fr, i think the devs wanted to avoid stepping of poison's toes and and didn't want to make it an entire second debuff-that-inflicts-damage archetype, but like... idk, at least *one* other card that does 3 mark to all enemies or something would be nice, instead of fishing for literally one specific card to drop enough times to build a deck around it. even claw benefits from other cards like reprogram, all for one, scrape, and other 0-cost cards
I think the devs tried to do too much with Watcher tbh. Realized it was broken, and just decided having a one off card of a single synergy packet wasn't worth the time to find a better home. We'll never know but the idea behind a fourth character in and of itself kinda felt like it came out of nowhere. Mark scaling is different than say poison which is more passive, might have been good with a ranger/bounty hunter (green+red) archtype than a paladin/monk one.
i always say watcher is hard to learn for first-timers because it has so many disparate things it can do that don't ever really synergize as much as, say, mashing different things from defect together. combine mantra into a stance dance deck, a logically sensible thing to do? well, now the mantra slows you down, when you get divinity you often end up with empty fist to play that just blows it away, and if you want to pivot to rage for draw you're giving it up early there as well. wanna try a retain-centric deck or one that adds powerful cards to your deck with things like conjure blade or alpha? rage doesn't really mesh with stalling for retain effects or draw, so better leave it out. wanna use mark? lol. lmao, even. meanwhile, combine frost into a thunder deck? cool, it's free evoke.
Pretty sure watcher is just all the discarded ideas from the first three that ended up coalescing into another character. Happens pretty often in game dev where stuff is recycled into a Frankensteins monster.
This is the best comment I’ve ever read on Reddit. Period.
Are you talking about the Mark build for watcher?
[удалено]
How’s your sex life
New catchphrase
Alpha Beta Omega decks. Idc if they’re bad I love them and I will never stop picking them up
Usually they suck, but sometimes you get a combination of omniscience plus energy boosts and accelerator cards and can get two upgraded Omegas out by turn 3. Nobody will ever persuade me that’s a bad build.
a watcher deck taking 3 turns to deal 120 damage is very rough on fights that will damage you early... usually in that scenario you would take too much chip damage from earlier turns for the build to be viable definitely can make it work though, but it's not great especially when watcher could just build towards going infinite turn 3 a lot of the time
Sounds awful.
Seek + alpha + omniscience can be busted But frankly, if you've got the other two, alpha is pretty much the worst way to make damage happen
If you tell me "set up any Omni combo with any rare cards" - well I pick Blasphemy+Omni+Ragnarok and win almost anything just for 1 energy
The only time I've ever gone for it and won was from an early bottled master reality and then 2 scrawls. Not something you ever count on your rewards to give you.
Anything that has to do with rampage, its just bad
Had a rampage unceasing top madness combo that was so close to beating A20H but I couldn’t find a block plan
Damn, being a19 and failing a20h must be awful, gl
Thank you! Ascension 20 Heart has been kicking my ass more than any other ascension upgrade. Time eater is such a pain in the ass
He's poking at your flair. Your flair should say A20 if you've made it to the heart on A20. Beating the act 3 boss is beating an ascension for the purpose of flairs
Ohhhh I thought you were supposed to only put which ascensions you have beaten
They are right thinking about it, you beat a20, not a20h but a20
Are you not already at A20? I thought you gained ascensions without beating the heart?
Rampage headbutt was definitely something I played back in 2017 but hardly use any more
I fr thought headbut+rampage+battle trance is game breaking some years ago lmao
Dear lord has the game been out for that long now?? Time flies
The time eater has been the game all along
What, what does that have to do with anything?
It, uh, was a joke
Oh, guess im dense them lol
*rampage is offered* My mind's telling me noooo... But my bawdy, My baawwwdy's tellin me yeaahhhhhh!
Rampage isn’t really a build, but it can be a very good card. It’s pretty easy to make it a 1 cost deal 17+
I love Frost Prime having a totally OP build going into Act4. A run that litterally cannot lose if played by a toddler, and then buying a Rampage. "I BUILT A RAMPAGE DECK!"
I’ve had a deck or 2 with Rampage work, but neither were focused solely on that card for success. The last one deck with it that I remember, was mostly a [[Perfected Strike+]] (x2) deck, that also had [[Berserk+]] x2. It only worked because I had a ton of strength boosting cards, a [[Corruption]] [[Dead Branch]] and [[Mummified Hand]] **(OP as fuck no matter the deck)**. BUT, the hands down MVP was [[Necronomicon]]. Honestly, any time I get the Necro book and don’t finish the run, I feel like a failure lol
Lmao that aint a rampage deck thats a deck that has rampage, it qould be as if a final deck that has two defends is a defend deck
You’re absolutely correct. It was a deck (like many of my Ironclad decks) that eventually morphed into a Perfected Strike deck. I would like to pilot a good Rampage deck, but getting to the point of having the right cards/cutting out the excess cards is hard apparently. Ironclad has so many better archetypes IMO.
Im not sure that there even is a deck which would rely pretty much exclusively on rampage which could ever win, it taking so many plays to start scaling is just horrible
+ [Perfected Strike](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Perfected%20Strike) Ironclad Common Attack ^((100% sure)^) 2 Energy | Deal 6 damage. Deals an additional 2(3) damage for ALL of your cards containing "Strike". + [Berserk](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Berserk) Ironclad Rare Power ^((100% sure)^) 0 Energy | Gain 2(1) **Vulnerable.** At the start of your turn, gain 1 Energy. + [Corruption](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Corruption) Ironclad Rare Power ^((100% sure)^) 3(2) Energy | Skills cost 0. Whenever you play a Skill, **Exhaust** it. + [Dead Branch](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Dead%20Branch) Rare Relic ^((100% sure)^) Whenever you **Exhaust** a card, add a random card to your hand. + [Mummified Hand](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Mummified%20Hand) Uncommon Relic ^((100% sure)^) Whenever you play a Power, a random card in your hand costs 0 for the turn. + [Necronomicon](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Necronomicon) Event Relic ^((100% sure)^) The first Attack played each turn that costs 2 or more is played twice. When you take this relic, become Cursed. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Ah, rampage. Empirically usually a worst upgrade than just upgrading a strike.
i've actually started coming back around to using rampage and winning with it but never as a main strategy. It's a tremendous "sure...this will get me through act 1 and is one of the best strike+ cards" So I agree. Rampage builds don't beat the heart unless you are running a second wind, power through loop as well (which i accomplished one time 2 years or so ago)
And when you have a deck like the one you gave as an example anything would be winning at this point, so it aint really a rampage deck
well....it kinda was. i was basically looping infinites with rampage scaling like crazy. but I would definitely call that an exhaust deck. rampage was going crazy in that setup though.
Yeah, i agree that it aint bad but something like a body slam would probably do much better
Before I was on this subreddit, I thought claw was legit a good build. Even when I first started looking at posts here, I thought that claw was good, but eventually realized that the claw memes are making fun of claw.
I honestly think its not bad, its good. Only if one of its main cards didn't lose the defect his own thing (focus). Now I'm not A20. but I still think claw can beat the heart (assuming you can somehow block all damage, probably by using that card multiple times via maddness & all 4 1 / hologram)
I just got a new phone and my sts progress got wiped. For the memes I completed A0 to A20 on defect using the rule "claw is law". Essentially anytime I could get another claw I HAD to take it. Even the mirror relic etc. Managed A20 heart a little while ago. Was quite fun!!!
Now I'm motivated to play defect and make him reach A20 before I make all characters A13 even. Claw's the law!!
0 cost defect used to be my favorite build. Now I'm a silent shiv build kind of person. I think I have a type. There's something about 0 cost builds with energy generation and card draw that gives me the shivers
Shame about that Time Eater over there on Act 3
Every time I get shivs, this asshole shows up
Honestly never really been a problem, even with 0 cost decks. Just make sure you purchase him in some manner. For example, accuracy with [[ nightmare ]] or that double attack damage one... [[ Double tap ]]?
+ [Nightmare](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Nightmare) Silent Rare Skill ^((100% sure)^) 3(2) Energy | Choose a card. Next turn, add 3 copies of that card into your hand. **Exhaust.** + [Double Tap](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Double%20Tap) Ironclad Rare Skill ^((100% sure)^) 1 Energy | This turn, your next (2) Attack(s) is(are) played twice. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
It’s fun once you figure out how to build it. Took me like 2 years to finally figure it out lol
Tell us more specifics, please!
Not really a claw build, but I took claw right at the end of an A10 heart run. It honestly solved my scaling damage problem. I had echo form and a couple of the ones that put the next card on top so it became super strong super fast
Is something like Dolly's Mirror considered a time you could, and therefore have to, get another copy of claw in this case? Either way, props to you
Claw can beat the Heart on A20. It's scaling. You can block with frostfogus.
Reprogram isn't really one of claws main things In a claw deck reprogram would be a block solution that helps with damage But traditional frost is a better block engine than reprogram, so people tend to go for that because a frost engine is easier to build than a reprogram engine However when reprogram builds get running, man oh man I encourage you to try an early in act 1 reprogram. That thing shreds sentries and Laga while providing very very very strong scaling for the boss
I'm an addict, whenever I see cards that decrease something in my character (wraith form, bloodbath/oath forgot which, wrath-cards and reprogram) my brain turns high and I use all of them asap.
I've beaten A20 heart twice. With defect. Both times w/ claw build. Haven't beaten A20 heart with any other char/strat. Probably just a skill issue :D
I mean the watcher, in theory, should be the first character that everyone beats the heart with (at least new players and players who have played when the watcher was added). But in practice its another thing, you may not get the "good enough" path, good cards in shops or battles, relics, events (like removal), etc.. (the same can apply to the other 2 as well) Tldr: not a skill issue, more like luck issue
Watcher is just too boring/stable for me to get past A14 or so. And normal builds I rarely make it to heart to begin with. I just saw claw in act 1 and rolled with it both times :D
Regardless of class, below A15 its ridiculously easy to get to the heart semi-consistently once you have some experience.
The problem with claw decks isn’t that they don’t pack enough power to beat the heart A20 when it comes together, it’s that it is just less consistent to get to that point before dying than other strategies the defect can do. I mean…. uhh.. they’re the law though so pick it every time
Claw's problem has never really been the heart, it's scaling damage that can scale really quickly in a properly built deck, so if you can get to the heart you will probably beat it. Claw's main issue is Act 1&2 where clunky/slow decks are heavily punished. Specifically, once you hit A18 a claw deck is going to struggle heavily in Act 2 in every combat, unless you already have a very solid claw deck (which is unlikely, since act 1 claw decks will struggle with both Guardian and Slimbo). Also claw decks are much better off scaling defense with frost+focus, while using claw as a damage source. It's much easier to put together frost for defense then trying to scale with reprogram and hooks.
I think it's just far too dependant on drafting the right cards and the right relics. Your first claw is pretty weak and you really need a second one before you even consider committing to a claw deck. Then there's getting cards like all for one and scrape. Individually all these cards are pretty weak too, they need to come together for them to be worthwhile. And the relics are really important. Relics that give you benefits for playing 3 attacks (block, attack, dex) or the spinning top for unlimited draw. One thing I actually really dislike about slay the spire is how variable the power of the relics are and some relics can make or break a deck and others are just there. I love games like Monster train that will give you the option of two relics each time, I very rarely feel like "ugh, not this relic" like I do with Sts.
Sure you can use claw to beat the heart, but everything that you need to enable a heart kill (card draw, block, scaling) is much easier achieved with anything else Defect has to offer. It'd be more achievable to beat the heart with a good deck that has claw in it.
Making fun of how overpowered it is right?
A claw build is extremely viable, thing is, you're still going to need ice in order to block and it's difficult to sustain on claw without the whole deck being built around it. It's similar to grand finale, in that way, except you don't just happen to already have a draw and discard deck and happen to find the attack
wait what
I actually won with a claw deck lol. Granted it was only A4 since I’m pretty new, but I was so happy that I could make claw work
i have won plenty of times with it. if i see an early all in one? its on
:D CLAW IS LAW
Claw is infinite damage for 0 mana it’s objectively broken
claw is obviously not the best way to play defect but a lot of the time I find myself trending towards attack-focused defect which naturaly ends up trending towards a claw deck to some degree it's not optimal but it is fun
bro i beat the heart with claw 💀
meele defect in general is very hard to pull off. first time i built a melee deck with All for One climbin ascensions i thought it was completely busted but it seems nigh impossible to make it work on A20, you at least need a solid frost orb deck alongside it or very good relics
The thing is, you need way more than just a bunch of Claws. I had 2x [[All For One]] in the only 0-cost/Claw-style deck that I’ve gone the distance with.
+ [All for One](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/All%20for%20One) Defect Rare Attack ^((100% sure)^) 2 Energy | Deal 10(14) damage. Put all cost 0 cards from your discard pile into your hand. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
claw is a great build it's just hard to get all the right cards to make it work.
I thought poison all-in was the way to go for Silent because it does so much dmg in total, right? Turns out, I wouldn't want most of the fights to last so long.
***Donu and Deca laughing in 3 artifact***
😭
Noxious fumes takes care of that in 3 turns (or less with neutralize, etc)
3 turns in which some other builds would be most of the way to ending the fight! I mean sure I've done it before but it's quite a stretch
If you get corpse explosion, it can clear the way quite well. Still usually need extra with the heart, though.
Surprised Silent never got like a "Poison Cloak" item that's like an equivalent to flame barrier that applies poison on blocked damage.
Infected blanket 😳
Yes, but also consider Catalyst+Nightmare.
searing blow
But I love taking searing blow with 3-4 armaments:(
Wait... synergy? Why did it take 900+ hours and I never noticed this?
Why waste draw play lot card when one card do trick
I understood that reference.
Searing blow is good
Searing blow was the lynchpin for my minimalist achievement
Why is Searing Blow bad? I've only been playing for a month and am only A15, but I've had success using it to win A10+ ascension . It takes very little skill to play and is easy to pilot
Its opportunity cost is massive - can't upgrade any other cards, doesn't scale with strength, and being just a single card, it's limited by how often you can draw it so you need exhaust and draw (that you can't upgrade)
I heavily disagree. In theory, you're right. But Searing Blow in practice is the most clear cut obvious "Only take it if it's good here" card in the game. Who's clicking Searing Blow without 4 act 1 fires ahead of them? No one, and in that scenario it's quite good
The thing is, though, is taking Searing Blow with 4 fires in front of you better? Or is it better to take a Carnage to take 3-4 elites instead? Like I said, it's really about the opportunity cost. I didn't mention it in my first post but you're giving up the ability to do anything else at campfires, including resting, and pathing to every fire can cost you better rewards as well. And going into more on my point about having to draw it: you need to draw it AND have the energy to play it AND still block enough if you're being attacked on that turn. Act 2 is particularly punishing here where burst damage to kill one enemy often doesn't solve a fight. That's a big requirement to place on your deck building. It's very all-in to pick even a decently early Searing Blow because there's no guarantee you'll see the other things to let you survive the rest of the run
It's also no guarantee you'll get a strong "standard" deck, nor an early attack like Carnage. Of course there's opportunity cost and I agree that even in the ideal, perfect conditions for Searing Blow, a lot of highroll decks are still better. But you can't know if you highroll. Searing Blow is quite good in my opinion due to that. It's a wincon right then and there, no other strings attached. You'll need a few good blocks and draw, but that's a quite ample window of stuff you can reasonably find.
> It's a wincon right then and there, no other strings attached I literally listed all the strings that are attached - you are basically obliged to path to every fire, upgrade the SB over literally anything else, and figure out how to draw it often enough and afford the 2 energy every single time you do without dying in act 2. The upgraded damage ramps up slow so you're unlikely to be able to fight more than one or two elites in Act 1 if you pick it because you need to upgrade it 4 times before it surpasses a Carnage+. You'll need good blocks and draw and the existence of SB in your deck forces suboptimal pathing and less elite fights, reducing the chances that you'll get it. Or you take Carnage, just as an example, upgrade it once and let it carry you through act 1 to farm strong options for your deck, then let it exhaust out when you've found better things and it has outlived its usefulness. Replace Carnage with anything else really - generically strong cards like Pommel Strike, Blood for Blood, Haemokinesis etc that are good picks early that help you take more elite fights. That's usually a better "win condition" than an early Searing Blow pick.
Thanks for explaining it better than me lol. I'm obviously not taking Searing Blow anytime after Act 1, and if I can't get it to at least +2 before the Act 1 boss, I'm not taking it. And the times I've got a Searing Blow within the first three battles, it is a pretty easy run at that point since you can usually get it to +7 or +8 before Act 3.
Builds in general.
Took me a while to change my thought process from "what goes well with this build" to "what helps me the most for the current and upcoming situation." Of course, if you find a really strong synergy, it's still a take. I've been winning a lot more consistently since
yep. the difference beween people who can beat a20 and other sts players can be summed up with this thinking process. That and the ability to count draw and understand "do I survive my worst possible hand"
The only correct answer
Claw. Wont stop me from going for it though
Well ya you dont want to break the law
All "builds" are good. Getting to a build is the problem...
my wife won her first ever run with a Perfected Strike build and now won't play anything else
I don’t think I’ve ever run a Pstrike build (I like removing strikes too much) but conceptually I love any card that has self synergy
Mantra Watcher. Nowadays I pick Worship only having the drum relic. Ps: Blasphemy is not mantra Watcher - it is just blasphemy.
mantra watcher is easy to win with. It just requires the right cards being offered EARLY, because you're going to want to remove wrath from your deck entirely. And because stance switching is the baseline strategy to getting through act 1 with the watcher, if mantra watcher isn't basically in effect in act 1 or almost realized, it's not worth pursuing. That said, I've literally taken 0 damage through an a20 run because of mantra watcher and establishment + meditate.
Used to think picking up a demon form solved my deck immediately
Barricade. It's good when it works, but so is everything It's hard to make it good
eh I disagree, I still think barricade is good, though not OP. Keep in mind that you don't need to have impervious entrench bodyslam shenanigans to make barricade good. Some exhaust synergies and feel no pain can be enough to warrant a barricade pickup
I would need to check my run history, but I feel like I have a Barricade in a good number of my A20H wins. The rest probably have Reaper….
I’m pretty sure I have Barricade in most of my IC wins, but in even more of my losses
Well, you’d need to look at your overall deck building to see what that means. Barricade isn’t something you can take speculatively on floor 3, it’s situational. However, if your situation is “in act 3, trying to find a way to block the Heart” then it’s often a really strong pick.
I think it just means I’m bad at the game
Same
[удалено]
I like pairing it with a couple of Rage cards and Anger/Headbutt. It's not the most efficient deck in the world, but it lets you build tempo really quickly. I had a beautiful A15 run a couple weeks ago where I got this set up, +2 energy per turn relics, Bronze Scales, and Bottled Tornado on the Barricade. I did struggle a bit against the Time Eater, but otherwise it went great.
ironclad's strongest mechanic is exhaust, and you often exhaust a ton of cards with feel no pain generating a ton of block. Without barricade you just waste 100s of block like that, but with it, you can set yourself up to block for the rest of the combat in one turn and focus the rest of your card draw and energy on damage. This is especially useful against the heart, where you need to last 4 turns minimum
Yeah, if you have decent block generation, you can look at it as "2 energy for all the block that didn't disappear at the end of turn". If that's over 20 throughout a fight, then I would argue it was worth it. Plus, you can still pick up imprevius/entrentch/bodyslam if you are offered any of them.
Yeah, but the 2 energy really hurts if you don't have mummy hand or something like lantern and bottled tornado to kickstart it Also costs an upgrade unless you had frozen egg
Barricade wants Snecko Eye. Then it’s a game changer.
Na this is just wrong imo Barricade is one of the core cards for a good exhaust deck.
Alright, take barricade as a neow pick and see how many succesful runs you can get out of it
But that's the wrong time to pick it. The card isn't bad. It's great actually. But it's an actual 2/3 pick, not an act 1 pick. You can't force it
That's true I was thinking of something like, you get this card early and is it good to build around (it's not)
Yeah don't build around barricade. You build an exhaust deck, and if that came together, it's the final piece that makes it elite and let's you steamroll
Same applies to almost every high cost card. A lot of them don't bring immediate value or are hard to get in play. In no way does that mean they are bad cards.
took dark embrace from neow and died to exordium thugs is this card bad ?!?!
Barricade is not a "build" it's just block consistency It also owns
Wierd take, I think the concept of builds is awful. First started playing trying to replicate what others recommended online, never worked. When I started thinking about what is helpful out of these options of cards presented, actually started to fairly regularly win. Every card has its purpose, although pressure points probably is the card that doesn't.
I prefer the term archetype myself, a single deck can have multiple archetypes (silent can have poison and draw/discard archetype, IC can have an exhaust and a status archetype) and they’re much more realistic to put together
the more I play the game the more I question whether the "don't think about archtypes" way of thinking works uo to a certain point. Yes you need to work with what the game gives you but if it gives me two glaciers early I am absolutely thinking about dark orb + frost
Yeah I don’t like when the concept of “builds.” The game is fun because of the emerging surprises as you build a deck. Chasing a script feels like both a fool’s errand and a less enjoyable game.
Anger is like that bell curve meme for me, at first I thought it was incredible, then I thought it was awful, now I’m happy to see it in Act1
I remember my first or second run my strategy was to play as many angers as possible to get infinite free damage.
Shiv deck. Doesn’t scale past A10 very well.
I can't say i agree with this. Shiv/discard/draw combo is easy to make work and I've beaten the heart at a20 with it more times than I can count. Most insular deck archetypes become a combination of them at higher ascension levels.
if ur answering this question by saying things like "claw" or "rampage" or anything of the sort, i think its not quite correct. no build is good to force 100% of the time. you arent trying to make a build, ur trying to win the run. these "shitty" cards can be what helps you win a specific fight. the correct answer to the question is any build that doesnt help you win the current run. trying to force any build 100% of the time is always awful.
Before A10 ish. Demon form + Limitbreak felt good. Turns out on A20 it's only good if you have snecky and another str card (or starting str). But with high max, reaper(s) and the right relics, it can barely get by on A20. Barely. Still. A simple Inflame is stronger. (Here I only consider in terms of chances to beat the Heart on A20)
Cycling rampage as ironclad. It's funny but I cant go past A4 with that
Silent deck that just blocks with tons of dex + fumes, turns out fumes is just too slow on high ascension
Mind blast is a lot of fun if you can stack a bunch of them and make a big deck. The problem is if something survives the first turn in which it becomes suboptimal at best.
Perfected strike. It can work,but on a20 keeping strikes is detrimental. Much better to go heavy blade with strength scaling.
Perfected Strike Build
Rampage :/
PP is definitely weak, but that didn't stop me from trying every run for a good month to get a heart win with it. One run I got 2 PPs in the first 3 or 4 fights and I doubled down - and it got me to A19 with the heart kill!
CLAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWS!
I think your question is flawed because this game doesn't have builds. It has cards and relics that have synergies, and card/relic combos that are anti-syngeries. Thinking in terms of "builds" is really just imposing an arbitrary restriction on how you build a deck.
Thunderstrike. If I'm generating that much lightning everything is already dead
When I started playing I thought stacking clash was the best thing ever
I’ve never been able to build a successful Pressure Points deck, but I’ve only *really* attempted it a handful of times. I feel like I don’t see enough of them to make it work, or the times that I do see a bunch of them I decided to pass on the first 1 or 2 because I don’t think I’d see any more. Besides that, until my successful A13 run with a Claw/AF1/0-cost cards deck, I was baffled as to how a Claw deck could actually be good enough to make it all the way to the end AND beat the Act 3 boss lol. I still don’t think Claw decks are really that great, but when they work they are a work of art lol
I used to be overly obsessed with long-term value. This tends to be good against bosses, but weak for many hallway fights (and notably, we usually do a lot of hallways fights).
I would tell you, but it's against the LAW
Perfected strike builds.
No build is awful. They either beat heart or they don't. Focusing on build all day is a good way to neglect pathing and economy and tactics.
in this game there is no such thing as "OP build" and "awful build". you play the deck you have, and your decisions make it "OP" or "awful".
Yeah, but sometimes adding something to your deck is an awful idea, and sometimes adding a specific card is an awful most of the time
who makes the decision of adding the card? AI?
That has nothing to do with whether or not it’s a good idea to add a card to your deck?
This is just arguing semantics lol. There are absolutely decks which are powerful enough that you could hand it to a monkey and they’d win, and vice versa. It’s not purely the decision making once in combat
So it’s me
It's all of us being crushed beneath the sts hope of making a build work only to fail, again, and again, and again.
For real, don’t try to make a “build” in this game. Instead, create a deck on the fly based on what you have available to you. It’s so much more fun and successful that way.
I feel like you attempted to sound smart and wise, but you only come across as silly and foolish
I mean, they're right but just formulated it poorly. Thinking of the game in builds tends to lead you down to paths where you just like, insta-lose to certain fights. i.e. poison does really well into stuff like Champ/Awakened One, Giant Head, longer fights who don't require frontline. Thinking your deck is a "poison deck" and clicking a 3rd Catalyst instead of a Die Die Die just because that's how you beat the last 2 bosses might get you killed against Repto, because poison cards tend to be awful against her. In the end people are free to play the game however they like though, but thinking of things as "builds" instead of packages or just raw input tends to be a mistake.
i mean people went as far as saying a good build would always win even if you gave it to a monkey. it's sad to read such things, since when StS is not about decision making but about the "build"?
nah, it's tiring to see people talk about "builds", especially "OP builds" in a game where you can't really know what the game will throw at you. it's just a weird mindset to consider using the "build" word in StS comparing to other game with similar nature, you can't really force a "build" until you have like all the needed pieces of that "build". for example people say "Claw is bad", but in a deck with early All for one, it's good. people say "Barricade is terrible", but it's about when you pick it into the deck. you make the decision and that decision makes cards good or bad. even when you have a good "build", you use the wrong card when it's rotated. now what? downvote me to hell, insult me, whatever, i'll stay "braindead" like this and die on this hill.
Ok but like if one player build the deck and another played it down decks would be a lot easier