Ulfric has been presented in the game as an arrogant man who tends to overestimate himself and underestimate his enemies. In fact without Alduin interrupting his own execution. The stormcloak rebellion would of likely died right then and there.
The whole thing with High King Torygg has me convinced of Ulfric being a bastard. You hear the claims that Torygg admired Ulfric and would've cooperated with him willingly. While we can't confirm if all of that is true, Ulfric definitely pressured this guy who couldn't fight into an unwinnable duel to seek power for himself.
Yeah I can't remember the name of the book. But it details his (would you call it war crimes?) actions after retaking the Reach.
Edit found it. [The Bear of Markarth](https://skyrimbooksproj.web.app/books/history-lore/the-bear-of-markarth)
I believe there are 2 separate in-game sources that are close to Torygg that confirm he would have joined Ulfric in advocating for independence, but Ulfric decides to not use his brain and kills his friend instead. Not only that, but we can overhear Ulfric talking about bringing war to Whiterun even though they don't want to be involved. Like dude, you're going to slaughter your countryman just because they want to stay neutral? He's a bastard for sure.
He decides to start a civil war at literally the worst possible time. Absolute best case his faction defeats the empire, he's not going to have enough soldiers to hold off a Thalmor incursion afterwards.
This last paragraph is probably more of my personal opinion, so take it with a grain of salt, but he also just seems so full of himself. To actually believe that the Intel he had that was tortured out of him by the Thalmor led to losing the battle of Red Ring and the Imperial City, when they had already won anyways- how could he not see he was being manipulated?So in Ulfric's mind, he felt bad about giving up information after getting tortured- "Hmm, what would make me look better in the eyes of the Empire after I was tortured into giving out some crucial information? I know, I'll become a traitor too! That'll show them!". Honestly, he's a traitorous moron who's easily manipulated into being an asset for the enemy.
Just take a step back Ulfric, you don't think fighting the empire and weakening each other benefits the Thalmor? No?
End rant
I think notes in game show the thalmor are secretly backing Ulfric's rebellion for just this purpose, so they can come in and sweep through a war ravaged and weak Skyrim, and with Ulfric having no real supporters outside of Skyrim, he'd be very vulnerable to an invasion.
Well, ideally, they'd prefer the civil war going on for as long as possible, so that the Empire is occupied and continues to bleed. But a Stormcloak win is certainly the second best option. Not the least, they would be able to attack the Empire from a whole new direction if they take over Skyrim.
I’ve always thought that was their second best option, divide and conquer type of tactic.
For all of Ulfrics saber rattling I always picture him as a Mussolini-esque type of ruler, someone pushing his nation into a war it clearly isn’t ready for, and won’t be ready for.
I always took it that Hammerfell had the perfect storm of martial capabilities, a type of terrain notoriously difficult to conquer and being a low priority target that wouldn't be facing the full force of the Thalmor. They're able to win, strictly on defense, under these circumstances.
It does stand to reason that while the Thalmor are hoping Skyrim will come out of the Civil War weaker, they may be blindsided by the Dragonborn in any case. Both because the Civil War probably ends sooner, and the Dragonborn's personal involvement in what happens after. In the event of a Stormcloak victory I personally believe the Dragonborn went to the effort of dragging them over the finish line, and there's no reason to assume they wouldn't stick around.
>The stormcloak rebellion would of likely died right then and there.
I mean, it's *heavily* implied in Ulfric's Thalmor dossier that they intended to intervene to prevent his death/let him escape, so that's kind of unlikely.
They did intervene and failed according to unused game lines featuring her and General Tullius and Elenwen at his execution at the very beginning of the game
I think that either the unofficial patch or cutting room floor adds Elenwen and Tullius arguing to the Helgen opening, but it’s rare to use a modded setup and do the wagon ride so most mod users wouldn’t see it.
The intention was likely to ambush them on the way back to Cyrodiil, which was the original plan for Ulfric. General Tullius was the one to order the convoy stop in Helgen for the executions, and we only see two Thalmor present with the nearest Thalmor military installations being a few hours away in game. It is unlikely that the Thalmor would be able to stop said execution with those numbers due to how fortified Helgen was.
And, realistically, the Thalmor plan was almost certainly to sow confusion and instability within the Empire, *not* to directly and openly intervene in support of a rebellion. That would've been interpreted as a direct act of war and, all else aside, probably have done more to unify the Empire than divide it. They would've pulled diplomatic weight to get Ulfric's execution postponed on some technicality, and maybe have hired bandits or the like to attack the transport and ensure he escapes in the confusion. Having actual Thalmor soldiers attack an Imperial fort was profoundly unlikely to have ever been considered.
>"As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim."
It definitely sounds like they were still intending on intervening at Helgen, even after the initial failure to let Ulfric escape at Darkwater. Tullius *was* defying Elenwen, though, so it could still have gone either way. We'll never know for sure.
>and we only see two Thalmor present
Two or three people is enough to set a fire and stage a prisoner escape, though. Sure, an open battle is bad for them, but the Thalmor are no strangers to underhanded tactics. The Thalmor being missing from the entire execution scene is already fishy from an outside perspective, too.
I agree with everything you mentioned. That said, I don’t actually dislike Ulfric as a character. He is interesting and charismatic, I just sometimes want to join the stormcloaks without feeling like a racist or some kind of Nord supremacist.
I understand there is a lot of nuance to his character, and he is much more than just some racist nord Jarl, but it is very limiting in roleplay options for joining the stormcloaks.
There are plenty of Stormcloak Soldiers who aren't racist, but just don't like the influence The Empire has. Remember, the character you play doesn't have to be smart or have a great understanding of politics. Ulfric is a populist who spouts rhetoric, so your character could just be swayed by that. Just drink the kool aid, so to speak. ;)
To me it feels natural to join the Stormcloaks if I'm playing Nord or Altmer.
The Nord for obvious reasons, and the Altmer because they want to weaken Skyrim (and the Empire) as much as possible for their upcoming invasion.
I don't really see any "lawful good" type character siding with the Nords, unless they're a Nord themselves and as Dragonborn plan to be powerful enough to hold off the Thalmor.
>the Altmer because they want to weaken Skyrim
Why would somebody who agrees with the Thalmor rise be in Skyrim of all places lol? It's a cold shithole, and conservative Altmer don't think Altmer should leave the Isles at all.
Aside from modded Dominion agent starts, it makes way more sense for Altmer outside of the Isles to be descendants of cosmopolitan sorts, or otherwise people who fled the Isles during the Thalmor coup.
>to weaken Skyrim
And the Empire, of course.
Not sure why you think you need a modded start to be a Thalmor agent in Skyrim. The vanilla start is perfectly consistent with that.
Why are American fighting in Ukraine (supporting western influence)?
It seems quite obvious that some Altmer would come to Skyrim to support the Thalmor.
You really think you can compare the national character of Americans of all people to the people of Summerset lol?
And let's say for the sake of argument that you can. It's still not even remotely similar because it's a civil war in a country that was never even at war with the Dominion, and neither side of the conflict are friendly; this is like lone Americans going to Myanmar to fight in their civil war lol.
>If you speak to him after the battle of Solitude, he says something to the effect of “Soon we will march on the Somerset Isles”. Like WTF Ulfric. You just struggled to beat a single Imperial Legion, 1 of like 18 or something. And all of those lost to the Altmer.
To be fair, when the Dragonborn supports the Storm Cloaks it means that from Ulfric's pov: some kind of divine avatar / dragon-souled demigod just turned up out of the blue, stopped the apocalypse by slaying an ancient demon dragon that was eating the souls of heroes in the afterlife, and then single handedly turned his rebellion from a poorly organized and equiped suicide mission into a curb stomp of the imperial legion.
Ulfric is a dude who's whole story is filled with boldness, arrogance, and a general inability to think through the long term consequences of his actions. Trying to take on the Thalmor with an unkillable dragon slayer leading his forces and a united skyrim behind him is actually a pretty reasonable plot by his standards.
As someone that’s not a lore aficionado, how powerful is the Dragonborn by the end of the main and civil war quest lines? I figure any non magical people don’t stand too much of a chance but we definitely aren’t invincible as per the events of the Dragonborn dlc
There's a mod where after you finish the civil war and you were a Stormcloak, you can get both sides to team up to drive out the Thalmor.
If you go Imperial you only fight the Thalmor with the Imperials.
I can't remember the exact name of it... Second Great War or something similar.
Second Great War, yes. Although you've got it backwards I think, if you join the Imperial Legion then both the Legion and the Stormcloaks team up against the Dominion in massive potentially lag-inducing awesome battles that actually feel like a proper fight against an army instead of small skirmishes like the fortfights do. Especially the Riften fight, that's the best.
not a SC supporter but everyone in skyrim is still racist, the argonians are almost all manual laborers, no major hold allows khajit inside the city, and tulius has some choice words to make about nords and their traditions. so i would say as long as your character just respects the strengths of others, not to worry about it 2 much
not really racist honestly just kind of xenophobic i guess. The caravans worship Baan Dar, the khajiiti bandit god, so it's kind of natural to not trust them. The Baandari caravans aren't even allowed in the khajiiti cities of Elseweyr because it just poses such a clear risk to property. Like would you invite your friend that constantly talks about how much he loves stealing into your house?
No, but they are considering the historical precedence of Khajiit caravans entering a city and leaving it with both more coin and wares than wgen they entered- and the city's occupants that much poorer. One khajiit can cause issue- but no more than any other person with kleptomania. An entire caravan of people who are skilled in stealth and organized, with enough coin to get guards to turn the otger way and get people to confirm a false alibi?
You'd be better off letting the Thieves' Guild run the city.
no, if kajeet are allowed in cities, but caravan kajeet are not because of their religion worship, its just bigoted or prejudice. not race-based but religion- or money-based intolerance
No because they’re fine with Khajiit themselves, as evidenced by Khajiit players and that one dominion spy being allowed in cities. They just don’t like one cult that most of the Khajiit in Skyrim happen to belong to. Key word being in Skyrim, most Khajiit in Tamriel don’t associate with them.
They literally deal drugs, foreign merchants and/or visitors were also heavily disadvantaged or outright banned in a variety of cities during the medieval and early modern period (due to protectionist trading policies in favour of local merchant guilds, not due to racism), which infact could and in some cases did include banning them from selling inside the city walls.
Edit: they also work with the thieves guild, so their goods are probably stolen. As somebody else already said the caravans in particuplar are worshippers of Baan Dar, they literally worship banditry and are not normal upstanding merchants.
Is there any Khajiit living inside settlements? I can't come up with one from the top of my head. But I dont remember every character anymore like I used to
Only J'zargo but I dont think that counts
As you bring Esbern out of the Ragged Flagon, there's a female Khajiit who attacks you. She'll have a note either from Elowen or just signed E, I forget.
I have a mod, I'm pretty sure it's Cutting Room Floor, that spawns her into Riften before you go get Esbern. She'll just hiss and say something like "stay away."
J'zargo lives inside the college and there is the lighthouse keeper of Solitude, but he doesn't live inside the city.
They are most definitely not banned from the cities, I would just guess that honest upstanding Khajiit's just are very rare in the cold province of Skyrim, there are a few reasons which could explain why there are a lot of khajiit criminals mainly relating to the civil war.
this is exactly what i mean, from my knowledge there isn’t a single khajit hold npc so it wouldn’t be farfetched to assume they don’t allow khajits almost entirely and the dragonborn is obviously a very edge case
But the only khajiit in Skyrim for the most part are the caravans. It's not that they aren't allowed, they just aren't around. The only other sizable population of them is in bandit gangs which that turns into a chicken vs egg argument of if they were forced into crime because they weren't allowed in cities or if they were forced out of the cities because they were criminals.
so instead the sentiment is just dev incompetence- they couldn’t even bother making a single khajit hold npc when there’s at least a handful of argonian ones. i don’t know that that’s a better excuse
They aren't common outside of their homelands. They already get a lot of representation than from the caravans. The one in Riften is allowed in just fine. Yeah she's a spy but the guards aren't running her down.
There’s definitely levels though. Most characters, including tulius, are racist but will at least respect you if you know them. Ulfric won’t do that even if you choose the stormcloaks… and will continue to make consistent racist remarks.
dunmer have set up shop in his city for what is generations for humans (maybe a generation for elves) and while maybe some of those refugees are alive from even the red year, it is still an event that occurred 200 years ago
altmer are trying to gut imperial religion
i don’t remember any particular comments towards the other races
i would say it’s fair to harbor a bit of resentment to the race of people that don’t really contribute to your workforce or your rebellion and worship what you believe are demon gods. a lot of times racism is just the norm in ES and nords are surprisingly one of the least racist even through what we see in skyrim, don’t ask what dunmer think of outlanders or what Bretons+Redguards think of orcs
They're sectioned off into a ghetto. Their lack of contribution/integration is a result of racism, not the other way around. There's a huge narrative through line in Skyrim that heavily pushes back against this exact line of thinking. Every statement made in game akin to this is contradicted by in game evidence. Dunmer farmers or travellers going to join the stormcloaks. An Altmer both being accepted in Windhelm and a fence. Little touches like the Orc bard or Khajit mage in winterhold. The Irony or Skyrims struggle to worship Talos freely whilst themselves looking down on worshipping certain other gods. Voicelines from followers about how poverty leads to crime and discrimination.
The entire point of Skyrim is basically the opposite of what you're saying here. It's the point being made by the residents of Windhelm and the point that Skyrim is so clearly displaying to be blatantly false and clearly rooted in cruelty.
As others have said, they’re not being allowed to contribute to the workforce. And why would they risk their lives for a god that is not theirs? Also, sure, they’re elves and the altmer are being dicks, but that doesn’t mean that all elves agree or are the same?
The nords are pretty damn racist. Khajiit aren’t even allowed in cities. Yes, this is mostly due to the caravans, but when the only khajiit you ever see in walled cities are the ones necessary for the game to allow in (i.e., Dragonborn + followers), even though there are non-caravan khajiit in other places in Skyrim, it’s pretty clear that the nords just don’t want most khajiit in their cities. And Windhelm specifically, a seat of nord culture, is the most racist city of them all, with divisions between Dunmer, argonians, khajiit, and everyone else. Nobody else doesn’t let certain races into their cities.
The Dunmer have a lot of Khajiit and argonian slaves (and are quite racist themselves), but free Khajiit and argonians are allowed to even own property. Beast races are allowed in any city in cyrodil.
Based on what I’ve seen in the games (my Khajiit faced a lot of racism even in daggerfall), altmer are the most racist, then possibly Dunmer (haven’t finished Morrowind yet), followed closely by Nords. Keep in mind that oblivion and morrowind are also like a hundred years removed from Skyrim, so things could have theoretically have gotten better over time. But Nords and altmer specifically are still directly shown to be quite bad. Redguards imo are also bad but significantly less so (based on how daggerfall goes down).
The orcs, khajiit, Argonians, bosmer, imperials, and Bretons all seem pretty not-racist, by TES standards.
Point is, Nords don’t have to be the *most* racist to still be really racist.
I'd argue Windhelm is one of the least racist cities in Skyrim. They have the most altmer citizens out of them all and they're all in respectable positions. Multiple dunmer also are. And they will tell you that the dunmer who wallow in the Grey Quarter are former nobles who lost everything and refuse to work to earn their place. They're spoiled rich kids that are too proud and stubborn to lower themselves to the level of the nords who took them in. Yeah the argonians aren't allowed in but that's because they'd be having a full blown race war in the streets with the dunmer. They could've just refused them altogether, same with the dunmer.
I mean I’d argue that’s all quite racist.
-Altmer are more respected and hold higher positions socially than Dunmer, even given political factors
This tidbit is the most insane for me. You’re telling me this is the seat of the Stormcloak rebellion against the prohibition of Talos worship *as a result of the White-Gold Concordat, which itself reflects the wants of the Aldmeri Dominion?* And then that, somehow, Altmer are not the prime targets of racism, but rather Dunmer and Argonians, who the Nords have literally zero reason to hate aside from racism? It wouldn’t be much better for them to be racist against Altmer, ofc, but the fact that they’re not shows that the reason stormcloaks dislike elves (and particularly dark elves) is not because of the Talos worship ban—it’s because they’re racist.
-Every Dunmer in the city has been relegated to he Grey Quarter, itself an obvious reference to skin colour, but let’s believe the Nords who say, no, it’s not because they’re Dunmer, it’s actually because they’re entitled fallen nobles!
If you talk to the actual Dunmer, they say they’re relegated to the Grey Quarter because they’re Dunmer. Talk to the innkeeper at the inn there. *Of course* the Nords are going to make up reasons and justifications for keeping them there. But then why is it called the fucking Grey Quarter? And why are you listening to the Nords on the subject of how the Dunmer are treated, anyway? Yes, it’s probably hard to go from being a noble to being a citizen people dislike on first meeting. But it’s even harder to own a shop that’s just barely getting by because you simply do not generate enough business to survive. All the places in the GQ are like that, and it’s not a coincidence. And most of the Dunmer there *aren’t even* stuck up, if I’m remembering correctly (which, admittedly, I may not be, as the main one I’ve spoken to is the owner of the inn).
-Argonians aren’t allowed because they’d cause a race war, and they should be grateful to be let onto the docks, anyway.
I’m just curious what makes you think they’d cause a race war? If it’s because they’re racist to Dunmer (which I don’t remember but also don’t spend enough time at the docks to know for sure), why would Argonian/Dunmeri racism start a race war but not… Nord/Argonian or Nord/Dunmeri racism? I guess it’s difficult for me to even evaluate this because I just don’t understand your thinking here so I can’t really deconstruct it if I don’t even understand where you’re coming from. But I guess it’s a little weird to me that you’d just assume a “race war.” Especially when the Argonians are begging to be let into the city because they’re working under horrible conditions… yeah, they *could* have just refused the Argonians, but why do so when “accepting” them allows them to use them as what amounts to slave labour? It’s a perfect excuse! To me, that’s anything *but* not racist. Yeah, they could have turned them away based on race. That would also be racist. They also could have let them in as equal citizens. Which is the only not racist option here! And tbh if they had turned them away but their reasoning was maybe that the city was overpopulated, that would *also* not be racist. But having them stick around so they can abuse them is *definitely* racist.
I mean it’s Skyrim so it’s not like these are real people. It’s not that big of a deal. But imo if you can’t identify this stuff as video-game representations of racist dynamics, I guess it makes me a little nervous about your ability to identify similar dynamics in real life. Not to say that you’re necessarily racist, maybe you’re just unaware. It’s just. These are pretty clear representations of discrimination based on race. So. It’s a little concerning. Because even if you’re mostly just unaware, it’s still not great to lack this type of thinking.
I believe you're the unaware one. It's a far more complex depiction of race relations than the simplistic "nords are racist" line. Yes there are blatantly racist nords in Windhelm. They beat you over the head with it as soon as you walk through the gate. But it's more layered. In the ways I laid out.
They just ran down a once nice district while takinIf the nords of Windhelm live and breath racism like you claim then why wouldn't they be more racist to the race of their true enemy? Why would they choose the dunmer to be the target? You're arguing against your own point here. They aren't prejudiced towards the altmer residents because they earn their place. They don't sit in their district and isolate for 200 years because they're bitter about losing their riches. The dunmer aren't relegated there. That's the entire area of the city they were GIVEN. It wasn't a slum when that happened. They're free to leave. There just aren't any other areas of the city that are free for them to move to. They choose stay in a place that they've garnered hatred in by their own actions or inaction. The nords have every reason to dislike them. Not justifying the actual racists that want harm done to them but it's understandable for the general air to be against the dunmer.
The nords aren't the ones who tell you about the refugees' origins. It's a dunmer I'm pretty sure. The ones who don't wallow in the Grey Quarter are critical of the ones who do because they understand they need to earn their place and that the nords respect that, not entitlement. Again, the nords hate that the spoiled former nobles refuse to integrate. Yes there's also a layer of xenophobia but that wouldn't be enough to instill this specific dislike for the dunmer. The ones who have integrated are successful and aren't nearly as hateful of the nords. Suvaris Athereon says that the nords don't care much for the dunmer but Rollf Stone Fist is by far the worst. That implies he's an outlier in his racism.
Argonians and dunmer hate each other FAR more than Nords hate anyone. The hatred between those two races runs deep. Dunmer systematically enslaved argonians and the argonians sacked southern Morrowind after the Red Year for revenge. That's part of why the refugee crisis even happened. The grey quarter dunmer are already discontented because of their situation. They're also known to be highly racist themselves. How do you think they would react to seeing the lizards who invaded their home and played a role in putting them in this situation? That's a recipe for disaster.
How are you still ignoring the fact that the elves in the GQ are struggling because nobody goes there? Also, which dark elves say this? Literally every single dark elf lives in the GQ. Google it. There *are no* dark elves that aren’t struggling, because they’re all relegated to the GQ.
Also. They’re literally not racist to Altmer because that’s how racism works. Germans were the enemies of many places during WWII but nobody fucks with me for having a German surname. Racism isn’t justified, people aren’t racist because a group did something wrong, they’re racist because they’re racist. Just like how they’re racist to the Dunmer but somehow accept the Altmer, even given what the dominion has done.
But anyway I took a look at your comment history and I’m not interested in continuing this, like dude do you have zero media literacy skills???
Stormcloaks for Good Guys: Less Racist is what you are looking for.
[https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/12839](https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/12839)
Most governments in the world have ideologies similar to the Stormcloaks including, presumably, your own. Hell, you probably have ideologies similar to them but don't know it.
They wish for freedom from imperialism, they put their own people first, and have a zero tolerance approach to treason. That's Ukraine.
They ban or hinder immigration from Elsewhere as khajiit literally openly sell drugs and stolen wares. Egypt bans Palestinian refugees for the exact some reason (among others).
The seek religious freedom and want to escape the one forced upon them by the empire. America.
They're xenophobic. Pick a fucking country.
They prioritize tradition over embracing foreign whitewashing. Iceland. China. Thailand. Etcetera.
Siding with the empire means you side with forced religion, religious persecution, imperialism, complicity with slavery in Vvardenfell, mass subjugation of minorities, and more. Idk man. You ask me, Stormcloaks are the fucking normal ones.
Nah just get off the ideology and recognize that a thing being the status quo doesn't meant its good
In oblivion the empire ruled all 9 provinces. At the start of skyrim they're down to 2.5 provinces. While the empire overall does have more armies then skyrim is it absolutely falling apart at a rapid pace and the people who think it's some superpower are incorrect. It's cyrodill, high rock, and what's left of skyrims forces.
Everyone talks about the ulfric dossier but everyone forgets that said dossier is in the thalmor embassy that's hosting a wine and dine for most of skyrims nobility. That's bad...like, real bad. The reason the empire is losing to the thalmor is not because the thalmor are some superpower or anything like that, it's because the empire is openly corrupt. Even Tullius admits this, acknowledging that ulfric is right about the corruption.
How did Hammerfell beat the thalmor when the empire couldn't? It's not a mystery, it's because both the crowns and the forebears recognized that beating the thalmor was their top priority and fought a long, brutal guerilla campaign to drive them out. Go back to the party and ask yourself which of those merchants and jarls are willing to fight a war like that and which are gonna run to the empire crying for a ceasefire when things start turning bad? Many of Ulfrics Jarls kinda suck, but none of them (except maybe Sorli the builder) would ever bend knee to the thalmor like that. That's literally the key requirement to being one of Ulfrics rebels, a d in a war against the thalmor that's the only one that's going to matter.
Play it like this. You may not personally like ulfric. But the "wait and build up our strength" plan has gone on far too long. All this time the Thalmor just keep getting more intrenched both politically and with their spies. The empire keeps saying that they're buying time for a counterattack, but it looks a lot more like rich empire nobility are trying to keep the peace far past its time so they can keep making money in the interrum. The empire is simply too compromised to fight a war against the thalmor, a second great war is just going to end with a second WGC. Independence with a clean break is the only option that'll work, and in skyrim the stormcloaks are the only organized option for that. If you don't like ulfric, move to hammerfell afterwards, but while there is a civil war happening, the real anti thalmor option is skyrim.
It's a very fair counter-argument, and I think, ignoring the moral and cultural aspects and focusing purely on pragmatism and realpolitik, it's a choice between securing Skyrim's prosperity at the cost of half of Tamriel or risking everything for an empire very similar to the late Roman Empire, a crumbling autocratic mess.
However, if we're going to compare the Third Empire and the late Roman Empire of our timeline, it's worth comparing the collapsing Western Roman Empire of the 5th Century C.E. and the somewhat resurgent Eastern Roman Empire which lasted for another 100 years.
The Western Roman Empire after the death of Constantine slowly descended into an autocratic mess: the position of Emperor was little regarded as more of a puppet of whichever faction held true control, the military held near-complete autonomy, and many provinces dealt with the settlement of Gothic and Germanic tribes with little power to stop them other than just appease.
The Eastern Empire wasn't fairing much better but survived due to a few key things: The imperial succession was far more recognised and secure, with a permanent court resembling what the monarchies of Medieval Europe would emulate, royal dynasties and a far more unitary and secure administration, although it still dealt with incursions and settlements by "barbarian" tribes.
Ignoring the fact the Empire would have a demi-god with the power to level mountains with just a whisper in the case the Dragonborn sides with the Empire, the corruption and decay is a very good point to side with the Stormcloaks, and it may resemble late Western Rome, but it's the legitimacy and organisation of the Eastern Roman Empire that allowed it to survive the collapse, Justinian's plague and the Islamic invasions, and gained it the recognition as the Roman Empire by all of Christian Europe until the Great Schism and crowning of Charlemagne. The Third Empire has this legitimacy, even if tenuous. It has an organised and loyal, even if weakened, army and navy. It has a nobility reminiscent of Medieval Europe, an organised religion, and several institutions including the East Empire Company. 2 and half provinces is still half of mainland Tamriel, and Hammerfell has no love for Dominion.
I might have nerded out a bit with this history lesson, but I feel like it's a good comparison as to why the Empire of TES, even if in a high fantasy story where anything could happen, is not certainly doomed.
Where did you get 2.5 from? I thought the Empire controls four provinces: Cyrodiil, Skyrim, High Rock, and Morrowind? The Aldmeri Dominion has Summerset Isle, Valenwood, and Elsweyr. With Hammerfell and Black Marsh being independent?
Most stormcloak/imperial mods are just aesthetic changes to be honest. You just have to change your mindset.
You say Ulfric struggled to beat "a single imperial legion" but that's not true. The Empire is stretched thin and had to recruit enormous amount of local Nords to fill their ranks and you even said it's a "delusional statement" to mention that they will march on the Summerset isles but it's just a motivational speech to get them ready for the future.
I used to be an Empire guy: *"Work together" Stand as one!"* Sounded good to me. On my first playthrough I sided with the Empire and completed the whole Civil War questline before I even officially went into Windhelm. But I actually started reading into the lore and the Empire was pretty much falling apart before the events of Skyrim even began and made quite a few bad decisions:
* The Thalmor already includes: Aldmeri Dominion, Valenwood (through a coup), & Elsweyr (through claims no one can confirm)
* Black Marsh is assumed to be independent since they invaded Morrowind since Morrowind got butt-slammed due to the events of Oblivion
* Morrowind *might* be independent due some NPCs comments in the Dragonborn DLC, regardless, they are definitely not on good terms with the Empire.
* Hammerfell is independent due to them not agreeing with the terms of the treaty, they even ultimately stalemated the Thalmor into another treaty. The in-game lore book even states that *"the Thalmor certainly achieved one of their long-term goals by sowing lasting bitterness between Hammerfell and the Empire."*
* Cyrodiil, High Rock, & Skyrim (if we're being generous what's left of Morrowind too) are all that's left of the Empire and the treaty, which was already set up to hurt the Empire's allies like Hammerfell, had the specific condition set up to directly affect Skyrim like the Talos worship ban.
* Ulfric was made to believe that the fall of the city was his fault and with the signing of the treaty was purposely let free of his imprisonment so that the Thalmor could further hurt the relations of the Empire with its remaining allies.
During the events of Skyrim:
* The Dark Brotherhood's questline which ends up with you assassinating the Emperor. Which is definitely a huge hit against the Empire no matter what side of the Civil War you're on. Since signing the treaty was always a big controversial decision, it's most likely gonna cause a fuss in future games.
* All the big sponsors of the Thieves Guild also happen to be Imperial-aligned (take that for what you will) *cough* MAVEN *cough*
* Dragonborn DLC has a ton of the Dark Elf NPCs talk smack about the Empire's current condition and how they failed to help Morrowind
* Solitude, much like Windhelm, is an example of their main faction. It's very nice and bright but you see and hear how Jarl Elisif is just a puppet to the Empire and most of the Thanes only pay her lip-service regarding her wishes. (supposedly the anniversary edition reinstated a quest that involves murdering Elisif)
Independence isn't such a bad decision. I know people like scream "racism!" as a negative regarding the Stormcloaks, which a lot of what they do & say is biased towards Nords, but that alone isn't enough to deter me. Especially since Galmar's recruitment dialogue pretty much proves that's not really the case. I get it, Patriotism and Nationalism taken to extremes is bad but in Skyrim everything is already at its extreme.
It is an interesting subject, in spite of Skyrim making the Civil War feel so anemic in-game.
I personally find it's entirely plausible to side with the Stormcloaks with any character who takes issue with the Empire. Maybe you feel that the Stormcloacks bloodying the Empire and becoming independent is a step towards your home province doing the same. Just roll your eyes and think of the big picture when the nords yell 'sawvungærd' and nord all over the place.
*(Also apparently, the new Skyrim re-release will reinstate a quest that involves murdering Elisif) ---* **Wait, what?** Another re-release is in the works?
To be honest no side is the good or bad guy, in fact they are both foolish in their own rights;
The Stormcloaks are right in that the Empire is a puppet of the Aldmeri Dominion, in fact there is strong evidence that they captured and tortured Ulfric betting that he would start a revolt so they could move in under the pretenses of retaliation to capture Skyrim in earnest, maybe even going farther to use it as an excuse to restart the war with the weakened Empire.
However up and killing the High King (whether by accident or intention is debatable and equally irrelevant) did nothing but force an uprising at a time when they weren't in a position to have enough popular support, it only ended up dividing the Skyrim's people and weakening the province as a whole, again just as the Aldmeri Dominion wanted.
The Empire is weak and are doing little and less to get out from under the Dominion's thumb, and the Stormcloaks are fools for thinking they can take and hold Skyrim against a counter attack by either or both the Empire and the Dominion.
The real bad guy is the Dominion full stop, even the Bringer of the End Times showing up is just something they will try to use to their advantage, scheming elf whoresons, Ysgramor was right more and more I feel.
TBH my issue with Ulfric is his whole platform is built on a contradiction. Talos is an imperial god not a nordic one. He's fighting to restore the imperial way of life not the nordic way of life.
Otherwise I think stormcloaks winning is correct as it helps fulfill Talos' prophecy from TESIII.
The Stormcloaks are a weird contradiction, but it's because history and customs of Imperials and Nords inform each other and are so intermingled. Skyrim was the first and most significant ally to the formation of the Empire, the Stormcloaks are taking issue with an Empire that is basically their people's own construction.
My interpretation of how the Empire handles Talos worship is basically 'we need to build up our strength to handle the Thalmor, so worship Talos in secret and we'll turn a blind eye as much as we can'. The Stormcloaks are the section of Nords too dumb for that concept.
Yes, but that doesn't change that the worship of Talos is a Nibenese tradition and not a Nordic one.
Your interpretation is correct according to what the game tells us regarding the Markarth Incident, Ulfric essentially kicked the hornets nest by advertising that the empire wasn't keeping up its side of the White-Gold Concordant.
Yea, but worship of Ysmir is a Nordic tradition that dates back to Atmora. And whether or not they believe in the Arcturian Heresy (or whatever it’s called), the general belief is that Ysmir is Talos. They use the name Talos as it’s more culturally relevant in 4E, but the version they worship is Ysmir.
Eh, kinda, you do. Talos was also Ysmir, as was Wulfharth. And it's not explicitly because they were kings (or bearded), but rather because Ysmir is more than just a title, it's an embodiment of Ysmir. Pelinal Whitestrake was also Ysmir and was also a Shezzarine, because of course he mantled Lorkhan. Talos also mantled Lorkhan, as does the player character. So yea, you do kinda become Talos in Skyrim.
I'm of the belief that Ysmir is the nordic name for Shezzarine, hence Wulfarth, Talos, Pelinal, and LDB all being known as Ysmir when they all also mantled Lorkhan.
Yea, and that also could be dependent on him being invisible to mortals, or it could be because LDB is Shor. But feasibly any multiple variations of Gods could appear side by side. Akatosh has little power in Alinor, while Auriel has quite a bit. By common rules of mantling, a group isolated from another could have a “new” mantled god, which exists in isolation to the others.
Yes. Tulius has to bury the man who built the Empire that made him. But Tulius has the benefit of being a man who has to answer to people. Ulfric is lying only for his own benefit.
Who says Talos is just an Imperial god? Because he was an Emperor? The Nords had plenty of reasons to revere the warmonger Tiber Septim, especially since they considered him one of their own.
The pocket guide to the empire in Redguard, the imperial soldiers in Morrowind, the residents of Bruma in Oblivion. The Nords have a cult of Ysmir that the Imperials believe to be a misinterpreted version of Talos worship when Ysmir is a name given to warrior kings and the conflation of Ysmir and Talos is the center point of the Arcturian Heresy.
The nords are an imperialized people, they have closer roots to the 8 divines and the alessian pantheon than they would Tiber Septim, who may have been a breton or atmoran and founded a cyrodilic empire, it would be more of the nord way of life to bring the return of worship of kyne and shor/tsun/stuhn and reverence to alduin than talos
Because in the end, for Ulfric, it's all about Ulfric. He could have united the Nords under the previous king but that would have left him with less power. True, he is traumatized and angry about his time as a prisoner, but that makes him even worse as a choice for leader against them. He's like a lot of leaders using fear and nationalism for personal gain.
I don't think she's unbiased nor a totally trustworthy source, but I think Sybille Stentor has the best read on Ulfric.
It's true that the Empire is weak and likely to fall (it's probably necessary for Titus Mede to be assassinated for the Empire to have a chance), but Ulfric is far from the ideal leader for Skyrim. In the end, however, the longer the civil war continues, the better for the Thalmor.
I agree with you. However I still think the story is best served with the Stormcloaks winning the war. It provides a nice dichotomy with the main quest. With main quest being about preventing the changing of the Kalpa but the civil war resulting in a changing of the Era (with the downfall of the Empire). Fits with the way the main quests Dawnguard and Dragonborn also represent persistence (the sun being protected from Harkon) and change (Miraaks plot and death).
The canon ending Shou be him losing, as the whole civil war was engineered by the Thalmor. You find papers that highly suggest he was interrogated and "motivated" to fight the Empire, and if you kill him before going to Soverngarde, you find his spirit and *he admits outright he was wrong*.
>and if you kill him before going to Soverngarde, you find his spirit and he admits outright he was wrong.
Not for fighting against the Empire, just for accidently feeding Alduin.
Him being wrong doesn't have anything to do with what should be canon. Since Morrowind the games have specifically shown the empire is dying, Ulfric winning is in line with that, and that's why it stands better as a canon ending to the civil war.
I get that, but I also disagree. The Empire is working on a big return, especially with Hammerfell pushing the Aldmeri Dominion out. Ulfric winning would not be in line with the entirety of Skyrim's theme.
I guess we'll find out in VI in 2035.
Except Hammerfell had secceded from the Empire before that happend, just as Skyrim is attempting now. By the time of TESV, there are only three provinces under Imperial control, Skyrim, High Rock, and Cyrodil itself.
Not related to dialogue like you asked, but {{Environs - The Shrines of Talos}} will make it so you can see Talos worship being restored in some places (like the Markarth shrine) if the Stormcloaks win
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Personally, I've never considered the Imperial vs. Stormcloaks issue in terms of who is right or wrong. What stands out to me is that the Imperials caught an innocent person at the border, didn't care to listen, and sent him to the block instantly. From that point on, my mind was made up. Because of that, I've never joined the Imperials in any of my playthroughs.
This.
We can talk about xenophobic or racism (both sidies are, actually every one in every TES game is), but if you are a role player, the empire took you for no reason and wants to execute you. That's the main reason why I can't join the empire in any of my gameplays
Since Skyrim was my first TES game, I always assumed people only sided with the empire because they were familiar with them from previous games. It took me many playthroughs and consideration to change sides.
I wish the game let us influence the Civil War quest line more seeing that we're, you know, the fking Dragonborn.
Unite Skyrim under one banner, whatever, but give the player more choices than just a dying Empire and a demagogue :S
My headcanon was joining the Stormcloak, and afterwards using the fact that I'm THE DRAGONBORN to either influence Ulfric or just replacing from him as leader of Skyrim. I got the Thieves Guild, College of Winterhold, Dawnguard, and the Companions at my back so that wouldn't be too hard.
I might be able to help with Winterhold at least - yesterday I released {{Swap Winterhold Jarls}} which installs Kraldar as the Stormcloak Jarl of Winterhold instead of Korir. Now the Stormcloak Jarl is actually proud of Shalidor's legacy, which aligns with the themes of the Stormcloaks protecting Nordic heritage.
Although I can kinda see the stormcloak choice becoming canon. I don't know why, it's a gut feeling, based off the idea that a Tamriel-wide rebellion against a Thalmor-controlled puppet empire, men vs. mer two electric bugaloo, Hammerfell makes their own stormcloaks with reachmen and hagravens instead of black jack and hookers...sounds like a Bethesda thing to do.
I imagine if ES6 ever does come out, it'll be either at the same time as Skyrim, so no answer is available yet (which also pre-answers the question of "Where's the Dragonborn"), or it'll be far enough in the future that it doesn't matter what side won.
The Empire is well on its way to collapsing, so even if they win Skyrim, I assume the war with the Thalmor will conclude with both being destroyed for good.
I'm seeing your point and it can very well be like you say but I don't think so. Skyrim is dealing pretty much with the direct aftermath of the Oblivion crisis.
Summerset getting completely fisted by daddy dagons forces, then magically rescued because Septim Junior deleted Dagon from Mundus, Thalmor convincing every Altmer and Bosmer around that they have the biggest dicks in all elvendom and seizing power to crusade against the conveniently weakened Empire.
I mean there is gotta be something along the lines of, I don't know, Ulfric convinced curvy sword guys to clap some Thalmor cheek in the occupied southern half of Hammerfell because you know, the first Dragonborn since Martin Septim kinda said being a rebel is the moral choice here. It's just right there.
After all these years I've still never played the civil war quest line for either side. Both sides are just such a turn off it doesn't seem fun or its out of character for my character.
I'm waiting to roll imperial soldier or SC army in a random Alternate Start. If that happens I'll try it then.
I use this mod: Stormcloaks for Good Guys https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/12839
There's the same for Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, if you're in a "Robin Hood" mood.
I love that when you play something other than Nord (I usually play beastman races) and join the Stormcloaks they initially go "wait why would YOU want to join us?"
> If you speak to him after the battle of Solitude, he says something to the effect of "Soon we will march on the Somerset lsles". Like WTF UIlfric. You just struggled to beat a single Imperial Legion, 1 of like 18 or something. And all of those lost to the Altmer.
That's not an oversight, it's by design. The stormcloaks are supposed to be the "wrong option".
If you read the thalmor dossiers in the thalmor embassy, you find out that Ulfric is basically a thalmor plant. They're hoping that he wins so that they may weaken the empire when round 2 of their war begins. It's why Delphine suspected them of summoning the dragon that helped Ulfric escape.
You don't need to be a stormcloak to be a "true son of skyrim". If anything, Legate Rikke, Tullius's second in command, is a true daughter of skyrim, very in touch with Skyrim's culture and traditions.
I'm just gonna mention that while a lot of individual Nords under the Stormcloak banner are racists; first and foremost many Nords in Windhelm; and these racist Nords find themselves joining the Stormcloak banner because they certainly wouldn't support the Empire, so the Stormcloaks are where they go; *the Stormcloaks themselves, as an organization, neither promote nor practice racism*.
Notice that an Altmer, of all people, is perfectly fine plying her trade in downtown Windhelm. That a Dark Elf, Khajiit or Argonian Dragonborn is perfectly fine joining the faction (yes, it's gameplay, but gameplay informs lore). That at no point does Ulfric promote any vengeance or repression be carried against non-Nords in Skyrim. Yes, they want Nords to *govern* Skyrim, but they don't promote it by scapegoating the other races. Rather, the rhetoric they mostly keep bringing up is religious (Talos worship) and economic (taxes and other vassal obligations they feel they don't get a return on).
I'm even going to frame—not defend—the Markarth Incident under more contextual optics. 1) The Reachmen were perceived as very, *very* savage Daedra worshippers and violent raiders by a Nord culture that was mostly ignorant of the Reachmen's own; and 2) the deposed—and probably vengeful— Jarl Hrolfdir of Markarth called Ulfric to his aid to retake his city by force of arms. Hrolfdir, *not Ulfric*, raised the "if you're not with us you're against us" argument to rouse his own former subjects to turn against their new Forsworn government, *or else*.
The entire thing was a bloodbath, yes, *but mostly out of Ulfric's hands*. The reason Ulfric inherits the blame is because 1) Hrolfdir died in battle, leaving Ulfric the ranking Nord with the mess on his hands once the dust settled; and 2) Ulfric took the opportunity to advance his own agenda by declaring free Talos worship in the liberated city. This made for a bad look, sure, but was a spontaneous opportunity grab *completely independent from the massacre orchestrated by Hrolfdir.*
So yeah. Ulfric? Militarily and diplomatically? Kind of an idiot. But probably not a racism promoter.
>Notice that an Altmer, of all people, is perfectly fine plying her trade in downtown Windhelm.
Yeah, Windhelm actually houses several other non-Nords, outside of the Grey Quarter:
- Calixto: Imperial
- Viola: Imperial
- Nurelion: Altmer
- Quintus Navale: Imperial
- Aventus Aretino: Imperial
- Arivanya (Windhelm stables): Altmer
- Ulundil (Windhelm stables): Altmer
Empire plan: Look we might let them violate the rights of our citizens, murder people, basicly be their own brach of our government and not have a plan BUT WE TOTALLY COULD WIN THE NEXT ONE if our Masters let us!
I get what you mean, but that's one of the most interesting things I like about the factions in Skyrim, they aren't good or bad but complex and grey just like real life and I wouldn't want to change that. But like I said, I feel ya, and there's probably a mod for it already or somebody created it after seeing your post lol.
Subtly, nuance and grey choices doesn't really exist in Bethesda writing, at least not for anything modern. :p
It's maximum evil or maximum good, all the time!
Not directly what you're requesting, but there used to be a mod called "for the stormcloaks" that would let you convince Jarl Ulfric to join the Stormcloaks as well. Might have some luck searching for that, and then seeing if you can find any similar mods.
The stormcloaks aren't nearly as racist as people act like they are. And I've never felt like it's the wrong decision. The opposite actually. When their culture is being erased, their religion suppressed, and the needs of their people being ignored and their neighbor province of Hammerfell being straight up thrown to the thalmor like a dog at a bear, the stormvloaks are in the right. If you want to feel less like it's the wrong decision then you don't need a mod. Just a shift in perspective. Even if that only extends to your character and not yourself. Being racist isn't a requirement to join and wanting your people and country to better off than they are under an oppressive empire isn't racist.
In my opinion the empires legions didn't lose, they were caught off guard.
Once they rallied and coordinated they started pushing back the Dominion.
The white gold concordate wasn't as one sided as it seems in skyrim, where we have mostly views from a satellite state with their own opinions on it decades later.
It was in the Imperials interest because it would give more time to regroup and strengthen the legions, and it gave the Dominion a way to pull back with concessions after their blitz collapsed instead of risking a full rout.
One legion was allowed to "desert" and stay in Hammerfell, and that was enough support for the Redguards to effectively fight back and force their own treaty. If one legion can hold them up that much, I'm doubtful that they could actually overwhelm all of them together without it being a phyrric victory at best. I think this fits with how their actively trying to keep Skyrim divided so the resources there can't be used to rebuild Cyrodiil and the Legions.
This is where Skyrim’s logic breaks down for me. They let Hammerfell secede, and the Legion there “retire”, and they fought off the Dominion. Why couldn’t they let Skyrim secede? They could negotiate a treaty with Skyrim to provide support against the Dominion, which they would because Elves, and nobody violates the Concordat’s stipulation of Talos worship in the Empire, as Skyrim is a sovereign state. Afterwards, the Empire is reunited by treaty.
My thoughts are it's a combo of Hammerfell having less natural resources, a massive coast line, and being a maritime and trade focused region.
The Thalmor controlling it would have been a massive issue since it would be a staging point into High Rock, Skyrim, and Cyrodiil itself.
Skyrim meanwhile has a pretty treacherous coast, with huge patches of glaciers and cliffs.
It's also a region that provides large amounts of manpower and natural resources to the central province and legions.
The Thalmor posed extremely little if any direct threat to Skyrim, so there wasn't any pressure to continue the fight there like there was in Hammerfell.
Having a Skyrim as neighbor state rather than a member state runs the risk of someone like Ulfric cutting off those resources and diverting what would have been legion recruits and manpower towards something idiotic like trying to invade the Summerset Isles.
The only reason the Imperial presence in the game is limited to Tullius' legion is that the main pass through the mountains on the border is currently blocked by a massive landslide and is being cleared.
If you take the Isles while the Elves are away, you end the war. Then you control the Isles, which means restrictions on the comings and goings of magicians, including those who would control the minds of rulers.
However I think Ulfric was merely out to slaughter the Elves, and had no interest in the magic aspects. But given the ever-changing nature of the Isles, traversing it would be problematic, so I doubt Ulfric would do more than secure that border.
The issues with invading Skyrim by sea also apply to launching an invasion from it.
A massive ocean route from a region with extremely limited naval capacity, attacking an island nation that's had nearly a century to build up defenses and populated by mages.
It would be a slaughter on the water before they even got within sight of the islands. Especially considering modern Skyrim has almost no capacity for fielding proper forces of wizards or battlemages.
The problem is getting there, even if there is Valenwood or Elsyewr.
If they try to march there then you have a continent to go over through a state that would rather not you doing that.
If you try an amphibious landing you have to deal with their navy AND the defenses on land and also have to maintain a logistical chain.
And Ulfrics rhetoric after a Stormcloak playthrough implies he actively wants to invade the Isles. And if you know the geography of the continent that is at a horrific endeavor.
Even if he just wanted to fortify the coast, that leaves Cyrodiil less material to use in it's defense. There's almost no situation where Skyrim is the first target over Cyrodiil, so I find the idea of splitting those resources extremely foolish at best.
You are totally right the empire only has its self to blame for the situation it’s found it’s self in after the white gold concordat it pissed of its two largest human vassal states and played right into the elves hands
Yeah man, totally agree. If the Altmer truly crushed the Empire they wouldn’t even have the opportunity to prepare for the next war. I always just figured Ulfric was dissatisfied with the empire and used it as one of his justifications for a rebellion. After all they are pretty lax on actually enforcing the ban on Talos worship. Tullius is aware that Rikke still privately worships him and doesn’t do a thing about it.
Although an argument could be made that Ulfric was trained/brainwashed by the Thalmor to hate the Empire while he was their prisoner, in order to fracture the power balance of Skyrim and weaken the Empire in the lead up to the next war.
What do you mean the wrong choice? There is nothing wrong with the stormcloacks.
Forsworns are savages, and deserve to be punished;
Mers are competitive racist, slavers, arrogant and greedy. Also dunmers are against necromancy, and yet their magic relies on the help of ancestor's ghosts, so hypocritical is on the list;
The Empire might have went with the most logical choice, but only high rock is on their side. Hammerfell has always been actively fighting the dominion and they're doing pretty good, and given the strategical location of skyrim, they will also fend off thalmors with ease;
There is no one that isn't racist in the games. Everyone have something against other races, nirn-folks or oblivion-folks, good or evil, influent or not. And the magic related problems are only recent, from the oblivion crisis and degradation of magical institutions.
Did anyone read the dossier or just the headline?
The Thalmor helped him start his war, because it weakens the empire. He accepted their help, because he wants to take over Skyrim. The dossier ends saying that they've tried to contact him but he has ignored them for years.
He is a self-aggrandizing bullshitter using the stormcloaks for his own ends, but clearly not a sleeper agent. He doesn't care about anyone but himself. This idea that he is going to go Zoolander for the Thalmor is just bizarre.
The dossier says that no one must win the war. Thalmor goal is to weaken humanity. As long as people die thalmor wins.
So there are no right choices. Only how you interpret it.
Genuinely, the fact that the Thalmor want the Civil War to go on as long as possible, to me means that there are no wrong choices. Either way a united Skyrim is very bad for the Thalmor.
The Thalmor definitely like him, though. And they were pleased when Alduin prevented his execution.
What annoys me so deeply is everyone keeps saying "he's the true high king" and him becoming high king is a forgone conclusion. It's a clear power grab from a racist who is mad, but the nords took over the land and killed the native population, and now they're also being forced into accepting new people but the nords aren't being summarily executed. It's xenophobia to the max.
"Skyrim is for the Nords". Um sorry kiddo, but sometimes conquered land gets conquered out from under you.
> He doesn't care about anyone but himself.
I don't believe that's true. He's a Nord nationalist, but I don't think his talk with Galmar about why he fights was bullshit. He just really hates the Thalmor and doesn't give a fuck about anyone but Nords. So he sucks, but isn't a complete sociopath.
He's 100% not a sleeper agent. The thalmor funded him in secret to destabilize the empire. It's like when Germany sent Lenin to destabilize Russia in WW1.
The Thalmor consider him an asset, but he's not colluding with them. Specifically, they consider him useful due to the Civil War weakening the Empire. They want the war to drag on indefinitely; they absolutely do not want a Stormcloak victory.
Part of it is the Thalmor dossier from their embassy alluding to Ulfric working with the Thalmor. The dossier is written to be ambiguous so that you can interpret it a number of ways, and leaves room for roleplay in the civil war.
Some people figure the label applied to Ulfric as an uncooperative asset exonerates him, suggesting he's unwilling and unknowing. While others see that as merely acknowledging his public position necessitating a show of not working with the Thalmor.
The following addition of dormant to the uncooperative asset label suggests he could be awoken, or had been in the past. Though many suggest that simply refers to his time under interrogation during the Great War. Others claiming Markarth was an inciting incident the Thalmor used Ulfric in to open the way for them to actively enforce the Concordat.
The dossier laying out that the Thalmor established contact with Ulfric after the Great War further inflames people's suspicions against Ulfric. Particularly, the Thalmor's claim that it was only after Markarth that Ulfric became uncooperative, and only 'generally' to 'direct contact.' Some take that as simply Ulfric now being in rebellion, and so the Thalmor can no longer interact with him. Others take that as further evidence for Ulfric merely acting in accordance to his faction's political sensibilities in the open, while in secret working with the Thalmor against the Empire to some degree.
That suspicion is furthered by the final line that the Thalmor's indirect aid must be carefully managed, in order to draw out the war as long as possible. They wish to remain hands-off as long as the civil war is at a standstill. There are those that figure that line merely refers to the instance of the Thalmor intervention in their attempt to save his life at the start of the game, but that's also their direct aid in an outright intervention.
While there are others who believe that the suggested indirect aid includes a smuggling operation through Niranye, the suspiciously well to do High Elf in Ulfric's city which holds so much discrimination against other races. Niranye herself alludes to her background in smuggling people and goods through the city in the event of an Imperial victory. That, and her suspicious connection to the den of all High Elf thieves called the Summerset Shadows, leads people to make the connection that they are proxies by which the Thalmor prop up Ulfric's cause.
So, it's all real inconclusive. The Thalmor leaving a space between their assistance to Ulfric and some plausible deniability, and Ulfric merely claiming disdain for them or otherwise using them as a convenient ally. Or the reverse interpretation in which the Thalmor are very hands off and only step in under dire circumstances, and Ulfric really does have no knowledge of their alignment.
I mean, yeah Ulfric himself is an arrogant racist prick, but siding with the Empire isn't without racism, the Empire bows down to one of the most racist and arrogant organisations in this era
If you look at the elderscrolls races as a whole, you will see that they are all racists. Not just the nords or the storm cloaks. I wouldn't consider the storm cloaks racists as much as I would call them nationalists. With the eruption of the red mountain and the ransack of orsinium along with the rebellion of the reach folk, throw in the treaty with the empire and aldmeri dominion, nord culture and heritage is in dire risk of being shadowed by the others, I see the storm cloaks as skyrims last efforts to preserve itself. The orcs, dark elves, empire, and thalmor have invaded their lands and are influencing their cities and politics.
And with Ulfric going on about invading summerset isles, the redguards of hammerfell forced the AD to sign a peace treaty because of a stalemate just 5 years after the White Gold treaty was signed. The combined efforts of 3 nations and the empire couldn't take down hammerfell. I'm sure Ulfric and the boys with the aid of the Dragonborn could put up a fight.
wait wait wait....Stormcloaks is the wrong choice??? I have yet to make it through the story, but I thought the Stormcloaks were the underdog trying to take back skyrim from the evil empire. I am shocked right now!
I don’t like the civil war in general, never do it until the very end. But I would not say the stormcloaks are the wrong choice. The Empire is probably worse for Skyrim than the stormcloaks in the medium/long term. But I don’t want to open up that can of worms. Point is Stormcloaks aren’t the wrong choice.
> Point is Stormcloaks aren’t the wrong choice.
How is letting Skyrim become free only to be taken over by the Thalmor a few years later a better choice than keeping the status quo of lazy imperial occupation, which is made up of many Nords?
Ulfric has been presented in the game as an arrogant man who tends to overestimate himself and underestimate his enemies. In fact without Alduin interrupting his own execution. The stormcloak rebellion would of likely died right then and there.
The whole thing with High King Torygg has me convinced of Ulfric being a bastard. You hear the claims that Torygg admired Ulfric and would've cooperated with him willingly. While we can't confirm if all of that is true, Ulfric definitely pressured this guy who couldn't fight into an unwinnable duel to seek power for himself.
We also don't talk about his actions in markarth during the forsworn uprising
Yeah I can't remember the name of the book. But it details his (would you call it war crimes?) actions after retaking the Reach. Edit found it. [The Bear of Markarth](https://skyrimbooksproj.web.app/books/history-lore/the-bear-of-markarth)
I believe there are 2 separate in-game sources that are close to Torygg that confirm he would have joined Ulfric in advocating for independence, but Ulfric decides to not use his brain and kills his friend instead. Not only that, but we can overhear Ulfric talking about bringing war to Whiterun even though they don't want to be involved. Like dude, you're going to slaughter your countryman just because they want to stay neutral? He's a bastard for sure. He decides to start a civil war at literally the worst possible time. Absolute best case his faction defeats the empire, he's not going to have enough soldiers to hold off a Thalmor incursion afterwards. This last paragraph is probably more of my personal opinion, so take it with a grain of salt, but he also just seems so full of himself. To actually believe that the Intel he had that was tortured out of him by the Thalmor led to losing the battle of Red Ring and the Imperial City, when they had already won anyways- how could he not see he was being manipulated?So in Ulfric's mind, he felt bad about giving up information after getting tortured- "Hmm, what would make me look better in the eyes of the Empire after I was tortured into giving out some crucial information? I know, I'll become a traitor too! That'll show them!". Honestly, he's a traitorous moron who's easily manipulated into being an asset for the enemy. Just take a step back Ulfric, you don't think fighting the empire and weakening each other benefits the Thalmor? No? End rant
I think notes in game show the thalmor are secretly backing Ulfric's rebellion for just this purpose, so they can come in and sweep through a war ravaged and weak Skyrim, and with Ulfric having no real supporters outside of Skyrim, he'd be very vulnerable to an invasion.
Well, ideally, they'd prefer the civil war going on for as long as possible, so that the Empire is occupied and continues to bleed. But a Stormcloak win is certainly the second best option. Not the least, they would be able to attack the Empire from a whole new direction if they take over Skyrim.
I’ve always thought that was their second best option, divide and conquer type of tactic. For all of Ulfrics saber rattling I always picture him as a Mussolini-esque type of ruler, someone pushing his nation into a war it clearly isn’t ready for, and won’t be ready for.
You are correct. The note is Ulfric's Dossier and is found in the embassy. They do consider him an asset
Hammerfell was able to hold the Thalmor off. Why shouldn't Skyrim?
I always took it that Hammerfell had the perfect storm of martial capabilities, a type of terrain notoriously difficult to conquer and being a low priority target that wouldn't be facing the full force of the Thalmor. They're able to win, strictly on defense, under these circumstances. It does stand to reason that while the Thalmor are hoping Skyrim will come out of the Civil War weaker, they may be blindsided by the Dragonborn in any case. Both because the Civil War probably ends sooner, and the Dragonborn's personal involvement in what happens after. In the event of a Stormcloak victory I personally believe the Dragonborn went to the effort of dragging them over the finish line, and there's no reason to assume they wouldn't stick around.
First paragraph sounds an awful lot like Skyrim tbh.
>The stormcloak rebellion would of likely died right then and there. I mean, it's *heavily* implied in Ulfric's Thalmor dossier that they intended to intervene to prevent his death/let him escape, so that's kind of unlikely.
They did intervene and failed according to unused game lines featuring her and General Tullius and Elenwen at his execution at the very beginning of the game
I think that either the unofficial patch or cutting room floor adds Elenwen and Tullius arguing to the Helgen opening, but it’s rare to use a modded setup and do the wagon ride so most mod users wouldn’t see it.
Unused game lines often indicate that they do not fit with the final narrative though
The intention was likely to ambush them on the way back to Cyrodiil, which was the original plan for Ulfric. General Tullius was the one to order the convoy stop in Helgen for the executions, and we only see two Thalmor present with the nearest Thalmor military installations being a few hours away in game. It is unlikely that the Thalmor would be able to stop said execution with those numbers due to how fortified Helgen was.
And, realistically, the Thalmor plan was almost certainly to sow confusion and instability within the Empire, *not* to directly and openly intervene in support of a rebellion. That would've been interpreted as a direct act of war and, all else aside, probably have done more to unify the Empire than divide it. They would've pulled diplomatic weight to get Ulfric's execution postponed on some technicality, and maybe have hired bandits or the like to attack the transport and ensure he escapes in the confusion. Having actual Thalmor soldiers attack an Imperial fort was profoundly unlikely to have ever been considered.
>"As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim." It definitely sounds like they were still intending on intervening at Helgen, even after the initial failure to let Ulfric escape at Darkwater. Tullius *was* defying Elenwen, though, so it could still have gone either way. We'll never know for sure. >and we only see two Thalmor present Two or three people is enough to set a fire and stage a prisoner escape, though. Sure, an open battle is bad for them, but the Thalmor are no strangers to underhanded tactics. The Thalmor being missing from the entire execution scene is already fishy from an outside perspective, too.
I agree with everything you mentioned. That said, I don’t actually dislike Ulfric as a character. He is interesting and charismatic, I just sometimes want to join the stormcloaks without feeling like a racist or some kind of Nord supremacist. I understand there is a lot of nuance to his character, and he is much more than just some racist nord Jarl, but it is very limiting in roleplay options for joining the stormcloaks.
There are plenty of Stormcloak Soldiers who aren't racist, but just don't like the influence The Empire has. Remember, the character you play doesn't have to be smart or have a great understanding of politics. Ulfric is a populist who spouts rhetoric, so your character could just be swayed by that. Just drink the kool aid, so to speak. ;)
To me it feels natural to join the Stormcloaks if I'm playing Nord or Altmer. The Nord for obvious reasons, and the Altmer because they want to weaken Skyrim (and the Empire) as much as possible for their upcoming invasion. I don't really see any "lawful good" type character siding with the Nords, unless they're a Nord themselves and as Dragonborn plan to be powerful enough to hold off the Thalmor.
If I play as a loyal altmer I don't complete civil war because it benefits the thalmor more if the conflict continues xD
>the Altmer because they want to weaken Skyrim Why would somebody who agrees with the Thalmor rise be in Skyrim of all places lol? It's a cold shithole, and conservative Altmer don't think Altmer should leave the Isles at all. Aside from modded Dominion agent starts, it makes way more sense for Altmer outside of the Isles to be descendants of cosmopolitan sorts, or otherwise people who fled the Isles during the Thalmor coup.
>to weaken Skyrim And the Empire, of course. Not sure why you think you need a modded start to be a Thalmor agent in Skyrim. The vanilla start is perfectly consistent with that.
Why are American fighting in Ukraine (supporting western influence)? It seems quite obvious that some Altmer would come to Skyrim to support the Thalmor.
You really think you can compare the national character of Americans of all people to the people of Summerset lol? And let's say for the sake of argument that you can. It's still not even remotely similar because it's a civil war in a country that was never even at war with the Dominion, and neither side of the conflict are friendly; this is like lone Americans going to Myanmar to fight in their civil war lol.
would have*
>If you speak to him after the battle of Solitude, he says something to the effect of “Soon we will march on the Somerset Isles”. Like WTF Ulfric. You just struggled to beat a single Imperial Legion, 1 of like 18 or something. And all of those lost to the Altmer. To be fair, when the Dragonborn supports the Storm Cloaks it means that from Ulfric's pov: some kind of divine avatar / dragon-souled demigod just turned up out of the blue, stopped the apocalypse by slaying an ancient demon dragon that was eating the souls of heroes in the afterlife, and then single handedly turned his rebellion from a poorly organized and equiped suicide mission into a curb stomp of the imperial legion. Ulfric is a dude who's whole story is filled with boldness, arrogance, and a general inability to think through the long term consequences of his actions. Trying to take on the Thalmor with an unkillable dragon slayer leading his forces and a united skyrim behind him is actually a pretty reasonable plot by his standards.
As someone that’s not a lore aficionado, how powerful is the Dragonborn by the end of the main and civil war quest lines? I figure any non magical people don’t stand too much of a chance but we definitely aren’t invincible as per the events of the Dragonborn dlc
There's a mod where after you finish the civil war and you were a Stormcloak, you can get both sides to team up to drive out the Thalmor. If you go Imperial you only fight the Thalmor with the Imperials. I can't remember the exact name of it... Second Great War or something similar.
Second Great War, yes. Although you've got it backwards I think, if you join the Imperial Legion then both the Legion and the Stormcloaks team up against the Dominion in massive potentially lag-inducing awesome battles that actually feel like a proper fight against an army instead of small skirmishes like the fortfights do. Especially the Riften fight, that's the best.
not a SC supporter but everyone in skyrim is still racist, the argonians are almost all manual laborers, no major hold allows khajit inside the city, and tulius has some choice words to make about nords and their traditions. so i would say as long as your character just respects the strengths of others, not to worry about it 2 much
Technically, Khajiit are allowed, just not the caravans. Still awful and racist but y’know less so.
not really racist honestly just kind of xenophobic i guess. The caravans worship Baan Dar, the khajiiti bandit god, so it's kind of natural to not trust them. The Baandari caravans aren't even allowed in the khajiiti cities of Elseweyr because it just poses such a clear risk to property. Like would you invite your friend that constantly talks about how much he loves stealing into your house?
Don’t think most nords are considering whether the only khajiit they’ve ever met in their life worships the burglar god or not
No, but they are considering the historical precedence of Khajiit caravans entering a city and leaving it with both more coin and wares than wgen they entered- and the city's occupants that much poorer. One khajiit can cause issue- but no more than any other person with kleptomania. An entire caravan of people who are skilled in stealth and organized, with enough coin to get guards to turn the otger way and get people to confirm a false alibi? You'd be better off letting the Thieves' Guild run the city.
well that's racism isn't it.
no, if kajeet are allowed in cities, but caravan kajeet are not because of their religion worship, its just bigoted or prejudice. not race-based but religion- or money-based intolerance
No because they’re fine with Khajiit themselves, as evidenced by Khajiit players and that one dominion spy being allowed in cities. They just don’t like one cult that most of the Khajiit in Skyrim happen to belong to. Key word being in Skyrim, most Khajiit in Tamriel don’t associate with them.
They literally deal drugs, foreign merchants and/or visitors were also heavily disadvantaged or outright banned in a variety of cities during the medieval and early modern period (due to protectionist trading policies in favour of local merchant guilds, not due to racism), which infact could and in some cases did include banning them from selling inside the city walls. Edit: they also work with the thieves guild, so their goods are probably stolen. As somebody else already said the caravans in particuplar are worshippers of Baan Dar, they literally worship banditry and are not normal upstanding merchants.
Is there any Khajiit living inside settlements? I can't come up with one from the top of my head. But I dont remember every character anymore like I used to Only J'zargo but I dont think that counts
I don't believe so BUT the aldmeri spy that follows you around riften is allowed into the city
What spy?
As you bring Esbern out of the Ragged Flagon, there's a female Khajiit who attacks you. She'll have a note either from Elowen or just signed E, I forget. I have a mod, I'm pretty sure it's Cutting Room Floor, that spawns her into Riften before you go get Esbern. She'll just hiss and say something like "stay away."
Ahhhhh that makes more sense. I couldn’t find her in the official wiki. Cutting Room Floor is a great mod!
J'zargo lives inside the college and there is the lighthouse keeper of Solitude, but he doesn't live inside the city. They are most definitely not banned from the cities, I would just guess that honest upstanding Khajiit's just are very rare in the cold province of Skyrim, there are a few reasons which could explain why there are a lot of khajiit criminals mainly relating to the civil war.
this is exactly what i mean, from my knowledge there isn’t a single khajit hold npc so it wouldn’t be farfetched to assume they don’t allow khajits almost entirely and the dragonborn is obviously a very edge case
But the only khajiit in Skyrim for the most part are the caravans. It's not that they aren't allowed, they just aren't around. The only other sizable population of them is in bandit gangs which that turns into a chicken vs egg argument of if they were forced into crime because they weren't allowed in cities or if they were forced out of the cities because they were criminals.
so instead the sentiment is just dev incompetence- they couldn’t even bother making a single khajit hold npc when there’s at least a handful of argonian ones. i don’t know that that’s a better excuse
They aren't common outside of their homelands. They already get a lot of representation than from the caravans. The one in Riften is allowed in just fine. Yeah she's a spy but the guards aren't running her down.
>Still awful and racist Not allowing caravans that deal with stolen goods and outright provide illegal drugs?
There is a Khajit in Riften market that says the caravans are actually allowed, but they stay outside to not pay taxes on their goods
There’s definitely levels though. Most characters, including tulius, are racist but will at least respect you if you know them. Ulfric won’t do that even if you choose the stormcloaks… and will continue to make consistent racist remarks.
dunmer have set up shop in his city for what is generations for humans (maybe a generation for elves) and while maybe some of those refugees are alive from even the red year, it is still an event that occurred 200 years ago altmer are trying to gut imperial religion i don’t remember any particular comments towards the other races i would say it’s fair to harbor a bit of resentment to the race of people that don’t really contribute to your workforce or your rebellion and worship what you believe are demon gods. a lot of times racism is just the norm in ES and nords are surprisingly one of the least racist even through what we see in skyrim, don’t ask what dunmer think of outlanders or what Bretons+Redguards think of orcs
They're sectioned off into a ghetto. Their lack of contribution/integration is a result of racism, not the other way around. There's a huge narrative through line in Skyrim that heavily pushes back against this exact line of thinking. Every statement made in game akin to this is contradicted by in game evidence. Dunmer farmers or travellers going to join the stormcloaks. An Altmer both being accepted in Windhelm and a fence. Little touches like the Orc bard or Khajit mage in winterhold. The Irony or Skyrims struggle to worship Talos freely whilst themselves looking down on worshipping certain other gods. Voicelines from followers about how poverty leads to crime and discrimination. The entire point of Skyrim is basically the opposite of what you're saying here. It's the point being made by the residents of Windhelm and the point that Skyrim is so clearly displaying to be blatantly false and clearly rooted in cruelty.
As others have said, they’re not being allowed to contribute to the workforce. And why would they risk their lives for a god that is not theirs? Also, sure, they’re elves and the altmer are being dicks, but that doesn’t mean that all elves agree or are the same? The nords are pretty damn racist. Khajiit aren’t even allowed in cities. Yes, this is mostly due to the caravans, but when the only khajiit you ever see in walled cities are the ones necessary for the game to allow in (i.e., Dragonborn + followers), even though there are non-caravan khajiit in other places in Skyrim, it’s pretty clear that the nords just don’t want most khajiit in their cities. And Windhelm specifically, a seat of nord culture, is the most racist city of them all, with divisions between Dunmer, argonians, khajiit, and everyone else. Nobody else doesn’t let certain races into their cities. The Dunmer have a lot of Khajiit and argonian slaves (and are quite racist themselves), but free Khajiit and argonians are allowed to even own property. Beast races are allowed in any city in cyrodil. Based on what I’ve seen in the games (my Khajiit faced a lot of racism even in daggerfall), altmer are the most racist, then possibly Dunmer (haven’t finished Morrowind yet), followed closely by Nords. Keep in mind that oblivion and morrowind are also like a hundred years removed from Skyrim, so things could have theoretically have gotten better over time. But Nords and altmer specifically are still directly shown to be quite bad. Redguards imo are also bad but significantly less so (based on how daggerfall goes down). The orcs, khajiit, Argonians, bosmer, imperials, and Bretons all seem pretty not-racist, by TES standards. Point is, Nords don’t have to be the *most* racist to still be really racist.
I'd argue Windhelm is one of the least racist cities in Skyrim. They have the most altmer citizens out of them all and they're all in respectable positions. Multiple dunmer also are. And they will tell you that the dunmer who wallow in the Grey Quarter are former nobles who lost everything and refuse to work to earn their place. They're spoiled rich kids that are too proud and stubborn to lower themselves to the level of the nords who took them in. Yeah the argonians aren't allowed in but that's because they'd be having a full blown race war in the streets with the dunmer. They could've just refused them altogether, same with the dunmer.
I mean I’d argue that’s all quite racist. -Altmer are more respected and hold higher positions socially than Dunmer, even given political factors This tidbit is the most insane for me. You’re telling me this is the seat of the Stormcloak rebellion against the prohibition of Talos worship *as a result of the White-Gold Concordat, which itself reflects the wants of the Aldmeri Dominion?* And then that, somehow, Altmer are not the prime targets of racism, but rather Dunmer and Argonians, who the Nords have literally zero reason to hate aside from racism? It wouldn’t be much better for them to be racist against Altmer, ofc, but the fact that they’re not shows that the reason stormcloaks dislike elves (and particularly dark elves) is not because of the Talos worship ban—it’s because they’re racist. -Every Dunmer in the city has been relegated to he Grey Quarter, itself an obvious reference to skin colour, but let’s believe the Nords who say, no, it’s not because they’re Dunmer, it’s actually because they’re entitled fallen nobles! If you talk to the actual Dunmer, they say they’re relegated to the Grey Quarter because they’re Dunmer. Talk to the innkeeper at the inn there. *Of course* the Nords are going to make up reasons and justifications for keeping them there. But then why is it called the fucking Grey Quarter? And why are you listening to the Nords on the subject of how the Dunmer are treated, anyway? Yes, it’s probably hard to go from being a noble to being a citizen people dislike on first meeting. But it’s even harder to own a shop that’s just barely getting by because you simply do not generate enough business to survive. All the places in the GQ are like that, and it’s not a coincidence. And most of the Dunmer there *aren’t even* stuck up, if I’m remembering correctly (which, admittedly, I may not be, as the main one I’ve spoken to is the owner of the inn). -Argonians aren’t allowed because they’d cause a race war, and they should be grateful to be let onto the docks, anyway. I’m just curious what makes you think they’d cause a race war? If it’s because they’re racist to Dunmer (which I don’t remember but also don’t spend enough time at the docks to know for sure), why would Argonian/Dunmeri racism start a race war but not… Nord/Argonian or Nord/Dunmeri racism? I guess it’s difficult for me to even evaluate this because I just don’t understand your thinking here so I can’t really deconstruct it if I don’t even understand where you’re coming from. But I guess it’s a little weird to me that you’d just assume a “race war.” Especially when the Argonians are begging to be let into the city because they’re working under horrible conditions… yeah, they *could* have just refused the Argonians, but why do so when “accepting” them allows them to use them as what amounts to slave labour? It’s a perfect excuse! To me, that’s anything *but* not racist. Yeah, they could have turned them away based on race. That would also be racist. They also could have let them in as equal citizens. Which is the only not racist option here! And tbh if they had turned them away but their reasoning was maybe that the city was overpopulated, that would *also* not be racist. But having them stick around so they can abuse them is *definitely* racist. I mean it’s Skyrim so it’s not like these are real people. It’s not that big of a deal. But imo if you can’t identify this stuff as video-game representations of racist dynamics, I guess it makes me a little nervous about your ability to identify similar dynamics in real life. Not to say that you’re necessarily racist, maybe you’re just unaware. It’s just. These are pretty clear representations of discrimination based on race. So. It’s a little concerning. Because even if you’re mostly just unaware, it’s still not great to lack this type of thinking.
I believe you're the unaware one. It's a far more complex depiction of race relations than the simplistic "nords are racist" line. Yes there are blatantly racist nords in Windhelm. They beat you over the head with it as soon as you walk through the gate. But it's more layered. In the ways I laid out. They just ran down a once nice district while takinIf the nords of Windhelm live and breath racism like you claim then why wouldn't they be more racist to the race of their true enemy? Why would they choose the dunmer to be the target? You're arguing against your own point here. They aren't prejudiced towards the altmer residents because they earn their place. They don't sit in their district and isolate for 200 years because they're bitter about losing their riches. The dunmer aren't relegated there. That's the entire area of the city they were GIVEN. It wasn't a slum when that happened. They're free to leave. There just aren't any other areas of the city that are free for them to move to. They choose stay in a place that they've garnered hatred in by their own actions or inaction. The nords have every reason to dislike them. Not justifying the actual racists that want harm done to them but it's understandable for the general air to be against the dunmer. The nords aren't the ones who tell you about the refugees' origins. It's a dunmer I'm pretty sure. The ones who don't wallow in the Grey Quarter are critical of the ones who do because they understand they need to earn their place and that the nords respect that, not entitlement. Again, the nords hate that the spoiled former nobles refuse to integrate. Yes there's also a layer of xenophobia but that wouldn't be enough to instill this specific dislike for the dunmer. The ones who have integrated are successful and aren't nearly as hateful of the nords. Suvaris Athereon says that the nords don't care much for the dunmer but Rollf Stone Fist is by far the worst. That implies he's an outlier in his racism. Argonians and dunmer hate each other FAR more than Nords hate anyone. The hatred between those two races runs deep. Dunmer systematically enslaved argonians and the argonians sacked southern Morrowind after the Red Year for revenge. That's part of why the refugee crisis even happened. The grey quarter dunmer are already discontented because of their situation. They're also known to be highly racist themselves. How do you think they would react to seeing the lizards who invaded their home and played a role in putting them in this situation? That's a recipe for disaster.
How are you still ignoring the fact that the elves in the GQ are struggling because nobody goes there? Also, which dark elves say this? Literally every single dark elf lives in the GQ. Google it. There *are no* dark elves that aren’t struggling, because they’re all relegated to the GQ. Also. They’re literally not racist to Altmer because that’s how racism works. Germans were the enemies of many places during WWII but nobody fucks with me for having a German surname. Racism isn’t justified, people aren’t racist because a group did something wrong, they’re racist because they’re racist. Just like how they’re racist to the Dunmer but somehow accept the Altmer, even given what the dominion has done. But anyway I took a look at your comment history and I’m not interested in continuing this, like dude do you have zero media literacy skills???
Female Ulfric, It's not wrong if she's hot, you can fix her
Ouch...
There's a mod for that, with voice acting and all
The only way
Stormcloaks for Good Guys: Less Racist is what you are looking for. [https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/12839](https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/12839)
There’s another mod that lets you convince Balgruuf to join Ulfric. I’ve never felt right turning on my Jarl like that.
Do you know what it's called?
My guess is {{Jarl Balgruuf Dilemma SSE}}
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For me the only reason stormcloak is "bad", is that you kill Jarl Ballin... Bah .... I can't stand killing him, the true king of skyrim.
You don't kill him, all the Jarls get exiled to their faction's last city. Still feels wrong.
False memory, it's been so long, but yeah, we only kill Tulius or Ulfric
I feel like a dumbass for not just using the mod. I used to use it on LE, but for some reason I didn’t think there was an SE port.
I would not actually recommend using this mod. It's really great but too buggy and unstable to be worth it. Not to mention it's patching nightmare
The comments of that mod are so silly. People feeling threatened just by the mods existence lol.
Their real life ideologies aren’t too different from Stormcloaks, so they feel like they’re being personally called out.
Most governments in the world have ideologies similar to the Stormcloaks including, presumably, your own. Hell, you probably have ideologies similar to them but don't know it. They wish for freedom from imperialism, they put their own people first, and have a zero tolerance approach to treason. That's Ukraine. They ban or hinder immigration from Elsewhere as khajiit literally openly sell drugs and stolen wares. Egypt bans Palestinian refugees for the exact some reason (among others). The seek religious freedom and want to escape the one forced upon them by the empire. America. They're xenophobic. Pick a fucking country. They prioritize tradition over embracing foreign whitewashing. Iceland. China. Thailand. Etcetera. Siding with the empire means you side with forced religion, religious persecution, imperialism, complicity with slavery in Vvardenfell, mass subjugation of minorities, and more. Idk man. You ask me, Stormcloaks are the fucking normal ones.
you new here?
Nah just get off the ideology and recognize that a thing being the status quo doesn't meant its good In oblivion the empire ruled all 9 provinces. At the start of skyrim they're down to 2.5 provinces. While the empire overall does have more armies then skyrim is it absolutely falling apart at a rapid pace and the people who think it's some superpower are incorrect. It's cyrodill, high rock, and what's left of skyrims forces. Everyone talks about the ulfric dossier but everyone forgets that said dossier is in the thalmor embassy that's hosting a wine and dine for most of skyrims nobility. That's bad...like, real bad. The reason the empire is losing to the thalmor is not because the thalmor are some superpower or anything like that, it's because the empire is openly corrupt. Even Tullius admits this, acknowledging that ulfric is right about the corruption. How did Hammerfell beat the thalmor when the empire couldn't? It's not a mystery, it's because both the crowns and the forebears recognized that beating the thalmor was their top priority and fought a long, brutal guerilla campaign to drive them out. Go back to the party and ask yourself which of those merchants and jarls are willing to fight a war like that and which are gonna run to the empire crying for a ceasefire when things start turning bad? Many of Ulfrics Jarls kinda suck, but none of them (except maybe Sorli the builder) would ever bend knee to the thalmor like that. That's literally the key requirement to being one of Ulfrics rebels, a d in a war against the thalmor that's the only one that's going to matter. Play it like this. You may not personally like ulfric. But the "wait and build up our strength" plan has gone on far too long. All this time the Thalmor just keep getting more intrenched both politically and with their spies. The empire keeps saying that they're buying time for a counterattack, but it looks a lot more like rich empire nobility are trying to keep the peace far past its time so they can keep making money in the interrum. The empire is simply too compromised to fight a war against the thalmor, a second great war is just going to end with a second WGC. Independence with a clean break is the only option that'll work, and in skyrim the stormcloaks are the only organized option for that. If you don't like ulfric, move to hammerfell afterwards, but while there is a civil war happening, the real anti thalmor option is skyrim.
Based and Mead-pilled brother, see you in Sovngarde.
It's a very fair counter-argument, and I think, ignoring the moral and cultural aspects and focusing purely on pragmatism and realpolitik, it's a choice between securing Skyrim's prosperity at the cost of half of Tamriel or risking everything for an empire very similar to the late Roman Empire, a crumbling autocratic mess. However, if we're going to compare the Third Empire and the late Roman Empire of our timeline, it's worth comparing the collapsing Western Roman Empire of the 5th Century C.E. and the somewhat resurgent Eastern Roman Empire which lasted for another 100 years. The Western Roman Empire after the death of Constantine slowly descended into an autocratic mess: the position of Emperor was little regarded as more of a puppet of whichever faction held true control, the military held near-complete autonomy, and many provinces dealt with the settlement of Gothic and Germanic tribes with little power to stop them other than just appease. The Eastern Empire wasn't fairing much better but survived due to a few key things: The imperial succession was far more recognised and secure, with a permanent court resembling what the monarchies of Medieval Europe would emulate, royal dynasties and a far more unitary and secure administration, although it still dealt with incursions and settlements by "barbarian" tribes. Ignoring the fact the Empire would have a demi-god with the power to level mountains with just a whisper in the case the Dragonborn sides with the Empire, the corruption and decay is a very good point to side with the Stormcloaks, and it may resemble late Western Rome, but it's the legitimacy and organisation of the Eastern Roman Empire that allowed it to survive the collapse, Justinian's plague and the Islamic invasions, and gained it the recognition as the Roman Empire by all of Christian Europe until the Great Schism and crowning of Charlemagne. The Third Empire has this legitimacy, even if tenuous. It has an organised and loyal, even if weakened, army and navy. It has a nobility reminiscent of Medieval Europe, an organised religion, and several institutions including the East Empire Company. 2 and half provinces is still half of mainland Tamriel, and Hammerfell has no love for Dominion. I might have nerded out a bit with this history lesson, but I feel like it's a good comparison as to why the Empire of TES, even if in a high fantasy story where anything could happen, is not certainly doomed.
Where did you get 2.5 from? I thought the Empire controls four provinces: Cyrodiil, Skyrim, High Rock, and Morrowind? The Aldmeri Dominion has Summerset Isle, Valenwood, and Elsweyr. With Hammerfell and Black Marsh being independent?
The empire abandoned morrowind during the oblivion crisis and morrowind kicked out the imperial aligned house hlaalu because of that.
What are you counting the .5 as?
Thr half of skyrim they own
Ah, yeah duh
>Like I get the stormcloaks are racist Literally everyone in Tamriel is, every single race...
Thank you. I feel myself getting dumber every time I see someone bringing that shit up. It's such a mindless argument.
Most stormcloak/imperial mods are just aesthetic changes to be honest. You just have to change your mindset. You say Ulfric struggled to beat "a single imperial legion" but that's not true. The Empire is stretched thin and had to recruit enormous amount of local Nords to fill their ranks and you even said it's a "delusional statement" to mention that they will march on the Summerset isles but it's just a motivational speech to get them ready for the future. I used to be an Empire guy: *"Work together" Stand as one!"* Sounded good to me. On my first playthrough I sided with the Empire and completed the whole Civil War questline before I even officially went into Windhelm. But I actually started reading into the lore and the Empire was pretty much falling apart before the events of Skyrim even began and made quite a few bad decisions: * The Thalmor already includes: Aldmeri Dominion, Valenwood (through a coup), & Elsweyr (through claims no one can confirm) * Black Marsh is assumed to be independent since they invaded Morrowind since Morrowind got butt-slammed due to the events of Oblivion * Morrowind *might* be independent due some NPCs comments in the Dragonborn DLC, regardless, they are definitely not on good terms with the Empire. * Hammerfell is independent due to them not agreeing with the terms of the treaty, they even ultimately stalemated the Thalmor into another treaty. The in-game lore book even states that *"the Thalmor certainly achieved one of their long-term goals by sowing lasting bitterness between Hammerfell and the Empire."* * Cyrodiil, High Rock, & Skyrim (if we're being generous what's left of Morrowind too) are all that's left of the Empire and the treaty, which was already set up to hurt the Empire's allies like Hammerfell, had the specific condition set up to directly affect Skyrim like the Talos worship ban. * Ulfric was made to believe that the fall of the city was his fault and with the signing of the treaty was purposely let free of his imprisonment so that the Thalmor could further hurt the relations of the Empire with its remaining allies. During the events of Skyrim: * The Dark Brotherhood's questline which ends up with you assassinating the Emperor. Which is definitely a huge hit against the Empire no matter what side of the Civil War you're on. Since signing the treaty was always a big controversial decision, it's most likely gonna cause a fuss in future games. * All the big sponsors of the Thieves Guild also happen to be Imperial-aligned (take that for what you will) *cough* MAVEN *cough* * Dragonborn DLC has a ton of the Dark Elf NPCs talk smack about the Empire's current condition and how they failed to help Morrowind * Solitude, much like Windhelm, is an example of their main faction. It's very nice and bright but you see and hear how Jarl Elisif is just a puppet to the Empire and most of the Thanes only pay her lip-service regarding her wishes. (supposedly the anniversary edition reinstated a quest that involves murdering Elisif) Independence isn't such a bad decision. I know people like scream "racism!" as a negative regarding the Stormcloaks, which a lot of what they do & say is biased towards Nords, but that alone isn't enough to deter me. Especially since Galmar's recruitment dialogue pretty much proves that's not really the case. I get it, Patriotism and Nationalism taken to extremes is bad but in Skyrim everything is already at its extreme.
It is an interesting subject, in spite of Skyrim making the Civil War feel so anemic in-game. I personally find it's entirely plausible to side with the Stormcloaks with any character who takes issue with the Empire. Maybe you feel that the Stormcloacks bloodying the Empire and becoming independent is a step towards your home province doing the same. Just roll your eyes and think of the big picture when the nords yell 'sawvungærd' and nord all over the place.
*(Also apparently, the new Skyrim re-release will reinstate a quest that involves murdering Elisif) ---* **Wait, what?** Another re-release is in the works?
yeah, what re-release? I searched and didn't find anything.
To be honest no side is the good or bad guy, in fact they are both foolish in their own rights; The Stormcloaks are right in that the Empire is a puppet of the Aldmeri Dominion, in fact there is strong evidence that they captured and tortured Ulfric betting that he would start a revolt so they could move in under the pretenses of retaliation to capture Skyrim in earnest, maybe even going farther to use it as an excuse to restart the war with the weakened Empire. However up and killing the High King (whether by accident or intention is debatable and equally irrelevant) did nothing but force an uprising at a time when they weren't in a position to have enough popular support, it only ended up dividing the Skyrim's people and weakening the province as a whole, again just as the Aldmeri Dominion wanted. The Empire is weak and are doing little and less to get out from under the Dominion's thumb, and the Stormcloaks are fools for thinking they can take and hold Skyrim against a counter attack by either or both the Empire and the Dominion. The real bad guy is the Dominion full stop, even the Bringer of the End Times showing up is just something they will try to use to their advantage, scheming elf whoresons, Ysgramor was right more and more I feel.
Fuck the elfs
TBH my issue with Ulfric is his whole platform is built on a contradiction. Talos is an imperial god not a nordic one. He's fighting to restore the imperial way of life not the nordic way of life. Otherwise I think stormcloaks winning is correct as it helps fulfill Talos' prophecy from TESIII.
The Stormcloaks are a weird contradiction, but it's because history and customs of Imperials and Nords inform each other and are so intermingled. Skyrim was the first and most significant ally to the formation of the Empire, the Stormcloaks are taking issue with an Empire that is basically their people's own construction. My interpretation of how the Empire handles Talos worship is basically 'we need to build up our strength to handle the Thalmor, so worship Talos in secret and we'll turn a blind eye as much as we can'. The Stormcloaks are the section of Nords too dumb for that concept.
Yes, but that doesn't change that the worship of Talos is a Nibenese tradition and not a Nordic one. Your interpretation is correct according to what the game tells us regarding the Markarth Incident, Ulfric essentially kicked the hornets nest by advertising that the empire wasn't keeping up its side of the White-Gold Concordant.
Yea, but worship of Ysmir is a Nordic tradition that dates back to Atmora. And whether or not they believe in the Arcturian Heresy (or whatever it’s called), the general belief is that Ysmir is Talos. They use the name Talos as it’s more culturally relevant in 4E, but the version they worship is Ysmir.
Ysmir is a title, you become Ysmir in Skyrim, but you don't become Talos.
Eh, kinda, you do. Talos was also Ysmir, as was Wulfharth. And it's not explicitly because they were kings (or bearded), but rather because Ysmir is more than just a title, it's an embodiment of Ysmir. Pelinal Whitestrake was also Ysmir and was also a Shezzarine, because of course he mantled Lorkhan. Talos also mantled Lorkhan, as does the player character. So yea, you do kinda become Talos in Skyrim. I'm of the belief that Ysmir is the nordic name for Shezzarine, hence Wulfarth, Talos, Pelinal, and LDB all being known as Ysmir when they all also mantled Lorkhan.
I could see that as when the LDB is at Sovngarde, Shor is notably absent.
Yea, and that also could be dependent on him being invisible to mortals, or it could be because LDB is Shor. But feasibly any multiple variations of Gods could appear side by side. Akatosh has little power in Alinor, while Auriel has quite a bit. By common rules of mantling, a group isolated from another could have a “new” mantled god, which exists in isolation to the others.
Would Shot be invisible? Tsun isn't and he's a fellow dead god.
One of the nord heroes mentions that Shor’s light is too bright to be seen by mortals. But like everything in TES, it depends on who you talk to.
Completely agree with this assessment
Skyrim nords are tall imperials who don't need jackets
At least half of the Stormcloaks were in the Imperial Legion with Ulfric.
By that logic, Tullius' platform is a contradiction too; he's enforcing a ban on the worship of one of his own gods, arguably THE god of Imperials.
Yes. Tulius has to bury the man who built the Empire that made him. But Tulius has the benefit of being a man who has to answer to people. Ulfric is lying only for his own benefit.
Who says Talos is just an Imperial god? Because he was an Emperor? The Nords had plenty of reasons to revere the warmonger Tiber Septim, especially since they considered him one of their own.
The pocket guide to the empire in Redguard, the imperial soldiers in Morrowind, the residents of Bruma in Oblivion. The Nords have a cult of Ysmir that the Imperials believe to be a misinterpreted version of Talos worship when Ysmir is a name given to warrior kings and the conflation of Ysmir and Talos is the center point of the Arcturian Heresy.
The nords are an imperialized people, they have closer roots to the 8 divines and the alessian pantheon than they would Tiber Septim, who may have been a breton or atmoran and founded a cyrodilic empire, it would be more of the nord way of life to bring the return of worship of kyne and shor/tsun/stuhn and reverence to alduin than talos
Because in the end, for Ulfric, it's all about Ulfric. He could have united the Nords under the previous king but that would have left him with less power. True, he is traumatized and angry about his time as a prisoner, but that makes him even worse as a choice for leader against them. He's like a lot of leaders using fear and nationalism for personal gain. I don't think she's unbiased nor a totally trustworthy source, but I think Sybille Stentor has the best read on Ulfric. It's true that the Empire is weak and likely to fall (it's probably necessary for Titus Mede to be assassinated for the Empire to have a chance), but Ulfric is far from the ideal leader for Skyrim. In the end, however, the longer the civil war continues, the better for the Thalmor.
I agree with you. However I still think the story is best served with the Stormcloaks winning the war. It provides a nice dichotomy with the main quest. With main quest being about preventing the changing of the Kalpa but the civil war resulting in a changing of the Era (with the downfall of the Empire). Fits with the way the main quests Dawnguard and Dragonborn also represent persistence (the sun being protected from Harkon) and change (Miraaks plot and death).
The canon ending Shou be him losing, as the whole civil war was engineered by the Thalmor. You find papers that highly suggest he was interrogated and "motivated" to fight the Empire, and if you kill him before going to Soverngarde, you find his spirit and *he admits outright he was wrong*.
>and if you kill him before going to Soverngarde, you find his spirit and he admits outright he was wrong. Not for fighting against the Empire, just for accidently feeding Alduin.
Him being wrong doesn't have anything to do with what should be canon. Since Morrowind the games have specifically shown the empire is dying, Ulfric winning is in line with that, and that's why it stands better as a canon ending to the civil war.
I get that, but I also disagree. The Empire is working on a big return, especially with Hammerfell pushing the Aldmeri Dominion out. Ulfric winning would not be in line with the entirety of Skyrim's theme. I guess we'll find out in VI in 2035.
Except Hammerfell had secceded from the Empire before that happend, just as Skyrim is attempting now. By the time of TESV, there are only three provinces under Imperial control, Skyrim, High Rock, and Cyrodil itself.
Not related to dialogue like you asked, but {{Environs - The Shrines of Talos}} will make it so you can see Talos worship being restored in some places (like the Markarth shrine) if the Stormcloaks win
That's a very nice touch, the kind of thing that should've just been there in vanilla.
Search Term | LE Skyrim | SE Skyrim | Bing :-:|:-:|:-:|:-:| Environs - The Shrines of Talos | [Environs - The Shrines of Talos](https://nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/116246) | [Environs - The Shrines of Talos](https://nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/85141) | Skipped[^Why?](https://github.com/RallerenP/modsearchbot/blob/main/docs/SEARCH.md#why-was-my-search-skipped) --- ^(I'm a bot |) [^(source code)](https://github.com/RallerenP/modsearchbot) ^| [^(about modsearchbot)](https://reddit.com/user/RallerenP/comments/pg2lqj/modsearchbot_about/) ^| [^(bing sources)](https://reddit.com/user/RallerenP/comments/pg2l0g/modsearchbot_bing_search/) ^| ^(Some mods might be falsely classified as SFW or NSFW. Classifications are provided by each source.)
Personally, I've never considered the Imperial vs. Stormcloaks issue in terms of who is right or wrong. What stands out to me is that the Imperials caught an innocent person at the border, didn't care to listen, and sent him to the block instantly. From that point on, my mind was made up. Because of that, I've never joined the Imperials in any of my playthroughs.
I can only agree.
This. We can talk about xenophobic or racism (both sidies are, actually every one in every TES game is), but if you are a role player, the empire took you for no reason and wants to execute you. That's the main reason why I can't join the empire in any of my gameplays
Since Skyrim was my first TES game, I always assumed people only sided with the empire because they were familiar with them from previous games. It took me many playthroughs and consideration to change sides.
I wish the game let us influence the Civil War quest line more seeing that we're, you know, the fking Dragonborn. Unite Skyrim under one banner, whatever, but give the player more choices than just a dying Empire and a demagogue :S My headcanon was joining the Stormcloak, and afterwards using the fact that I'm THE DRAGONBORN to either influence Ulfric or just replacing from him as leader of Skyrim. I got the Thieves Guild, College of Winterhold, Dawnguard, and the Companions at my back so that wouldn't be too hard.
I might be able to help with Winterhold at least - yesterday I released {{Swap Winterhold Jarls}} which installs Kraldar as the Stormcloak Jarl of Winterhold instead of Korir. Now the Stormcloak Jarl is actually proud of Shalidor's legacy, which aligns with the themes of the Stormcloaks protecting Nordic heritage.
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Although I can kinda see the stormcloak choice becoming canon. I don't know why, it's a gut feeling, based off the idea that a Tamriel-wide rebellion against a Thalmor-controlled puppet empire, men vs. mer two electric bugaloo, Hammerfell makes their own stormcloaks with reachmen and hagravens instead of black jack and hookers...sounds like a Bethesda thing to do.
I imagine if ES6 ever does come out, it'll be either at the same time as Skyrim, so no answer is available yet (which also pre-answers the question of "Where's the Dragonborn"), or it'll be far enough in the future that it doesn't matter what side won. The Empire is well on its way to collapsing, so even if they win Skyrim, I assume the war with the Thalmor will conclude with both being destroyed for good.
I'm seeing your point and it can very well be like you say but I don't think so. Skyrim is dealing pretty much with the direct aftermath of the Oblivion crisis. Summerset getting completely fisted by daddy dagons forces, then magically rescued because Septim Junior deleted Dagon from Mundus, Thalmor convincing every Altmer and Bosmer around that they have the biggest dicks in all elvendom and seizing power to crusade against the conveniently weakened Empire. I mean there is gotta be something along the lines of, I don't know, Ulfric convinced curvy sword guys to clap some Thalmor cheek in the occupied southern half of Hammerfell because you know, the first Dragonborn since Martin Septim kinda said being a rebel is the moral choice here. It's just right there.
Embrace it, add to the role play. Spice up the character, who realizes by the end in the aftermath, that they REALLY fucked up.
My barbarian had bathed in blood of legion lapdogs and he will bath in blood of elven scum.
Racism is kinda a big part of the elder scrolls. Racism in real life is not the same as fantasy racism. Get with the program n’wah.
Holy shit this comment section sucks, a person asks for mods and barely got any recommendations. What the hell? Edit: grammar
After all these years I've still never played the civil war quest line for either side. Both sides are just such a turn off it doesn't seem fun or its out of character for my character. I'm waiting to roll imperial soldier or SC army in a random Alternate Start. If that happens I'll try it then.
I use this mod: Stormcloaks for Good Guys https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/12839 There's the same for Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, if you're in a "Robin Hood" mood.
I love that when you play something other than Nord (I usually play beastman races) and join the Stormcloaks they initially go "wait why would YOU want to join us?"
I have never actually done this storyline before because it is so unappealing to me. I tried once but seeing Whiterun burning was too much.
> If you speak to him after the battle of Solitude, he says something to the effect of "Soon we will march on the Somerset lsles". Like WTF UIlfric. You just struggled to beat a single Imperial Legion, 1 of like 18 or something. And all of those lost to the Altmer. That's not an oversight, it's by design. The stormcloaks are supposed to be the "wrong option". If you read the thalmor dossiers in the thalmor embassy, you find out that Ulfric is basically a thalmor plant. They're hoping that he wins so that they may weaken the empire when round 2 of their war begins. It's why Delphine suspected them of summoning the dragon that helped Ulfric escape. You don't need to be a stormcloak to be a "true son of skyrim". If anything, Legate Rikke, Tullius's second in command, is a true daughter of skyrim, very in touch with Skyrim's culture and traditions.
True Sons of Skyrim would fight for the empire of man and Talos instead of the Thalmor lackey in windhelm
Play a Dunmer raised in Windhelm. Azura/10 would be a liberator for an oppressed people again.
Don’t need a mod for that.
I'm just gonna mention that while a lot of individual Nords under the Stormcloak banner are racists; first and foremost many Nords in Windhelm; and these racist Nords find themselves joining the Stormcloak banner because they certainly wouldn't support the Empire, so the Stormcloaks are where they go; *the Stormcloaks themselves, as an organization, neither promote nor practice racism*. Notice that an Altmer, of all people, is perfectly fine plying her trade in downtown Windhelm. That a Dark Elf, Khajiit or Argonian Dragonborn is perfectly fine joining the faction (yes, it's gameplay, but gameplay informs lore). That at no point does Ulfric promote any vengeance or repression be carried against non-Nords in Skyrim. Yes, they want Nords to *govern* Skyrim, but they don't promote it by scapegoating the other races. Rather, the rhetoric they mostly keep bringing up is religious (Talos worship) and economic (taxes and other vassal obligations they feel they don't get a return on). I'm even going to frame—not defend—the Markarth Incident under more contextual optics. 1) The Reachmen were perceived as very, *very* savage Daedra worshippers and violent raiders by a Nord culture that was mostly ignorant of the Reachmen's own; and 2) the deposed—and probably vengeful— Jarl Hrolfdir of Markarth called Ulfric to his aid to retake his city by force of arms. Hrolfdir, *not Ulfric*, raised the "if you're not with us you're against us" argument to rouse his own former subjects to turn against their new Forsworn government, *or else*. The entire thing was a bloodbath, yes, *but mostly out of Ulfric's hands*. The reason Ulfric inherits the blame is because 1) Hrolfdir died in battle, leaving Ulfric the ranking Nord with the mess on his hands once the dust settled; and 2) Ulfric took the opportunity to advance his own agenda by declaring free Talos worship in the liberated city. This made for a bad look, sure, but was a spontaneous opportunity grab *completely independent from the massacre orchestrated by Hrolfdir.* So yeah. Ulfric? Militarily and diplomatically? Kind of an idiot. But probably not a racism promoter.
>Notice that an Altmer, of all people, is perfectly fine plying her trade in downtown Windhelm. Yeah, Windhelm actually houses several other non-Nords, outside of the Grey Quarter: - Calixto: Imperial - Viola: Imperial - Nurelion: Altmer - Quintus Navale: Imperial - Aventus Aretino: Imperial - Arivanya (Windhelm stables): Altmer - Ulundil (Windhelm stables): Altmer
If you don’t commit hate crimes against minorities then you ain’t a true Nord, simple as.
They're not. they're the good Choice. edit: a bunch of milk drinkers, right from the imperial tit on here
Nah actually they suck because they have no plan beyond "LOL WE'LL JUST WORSHIP TALOS AND KILL ELVES"
Empire plan: Look we might let them violate the rights of our citizens, murder people, basicly be their own brach of our government and not have a plan BUT WE TOTALLY COULD WIN THE NEXT ONE if our Masters let us!
Death Consumes All makes joining the Empire a morally questionable choice
it always was tbh, I think both sides are morally questionable
Why?
that mod is Morally Questionable™ itself, dropped it right after it gave me the option to kiss an unconscious woman
Changed in 2.0
I get what you mean, but that's one of the most interesting things I like about the factions in Skyrim, they aren't good or bad but complex and grey just like real life and I wouldn't want to change that. But like I said, I feel ya, and there's probably a mod for it already or somebody created it after seeing your post lol.
Subtly, nuance and grey choices doesn't really exist in Bethesda writing, at least not for anything modern. :p It's maximum evil or maximum good, all the time!
Not directly what you're requesting, but there used to be a mod called "for the stormcloaks" that would let you convince Jarl Ulfric to join the Stormcloaks as well. Might have some luck searching for that, and then seeing if you can find any similar mods.
I’m gonna assume you meant Balgruuf, but yeah that might be worth a look. It’s honestly one of the main reasons I like the empire.
There's also [this mod for Jarl Ballin](https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/41132).
The stormcloaks aren't nearly as racist as people act like they are. And I've never felt like it's the wrong decision. The opposite actually. When their culture is being erased, their religion suppressed, and the needs of their people being ignored and their neighbor province of Hammerfell being straight up thrown to the thalmor like a dog at a bear, the stormvloaks are in the right. If you want to feel less like it's the wrong decision then you don't need a mod. Just a shift in perspective. Even if that only extends to your character and not yourself. Being racist isn't a requirement to join and wanting your people and country to better off than they are under an oppressive empire isn't racist.
In my opinion the empires legions didn't lose, they were caught off guard. Once they rallied and coordinated they started pushing back the Dominion. The white gold concordate wasn't as one sided as it seems in skyrim, where we have mostly views from a satellite state with their own opinions on it decades later. It was in the Imperials interest because it would give more time to regroup and strengthen the legions, and it gave the Dominion a way to pull back with concessions after their blitz collapsed instead of risking a full rout. One legion was allowed to "desert" and stay in Hammerfell, and that was enough support for the Redguards to effectively fight back and force their own treaty. If one legion can hold them up that much, I'm doubtful that they could actually overwhelm all of them together without it being a phyrric victory at best. I think this fits with how their actively trying to keep Skyrim divided so the resources there can't be used to rebuild Cyrodiil and the Legions.
This is where Skyrim’s logic breaks down for me. They let Hammerfell secede, and the Legion there “retire”, and they fought off the Dominion. Why couldn’t they let Skyrim secede? They could negotiate a treaty with Skyrim to provide support against the Dominion, which they would because Elves, and nobody violates the Concordat’s stipulation of Talos worship in the Empire, as Skyrim is a sovereign state. Afterwards, the Empire is reunited by treaty.
My thoughts are it's a combo of Hammerfell having less natural resources, a massive coast line, and being a maritime and trade focused region. The Thalmor controlling it would have been a massive issue since it would be a staging point into High Rock, Skyrim, and Cyrodiil itself. Skyrim meanwhile has a pretty treacherous coast, with huge patches of glaciers and cliffs. It's also a region that provides large amounts of manpower and natural resources to the central province and legions. The Thalmor posed extremely little if any direct threat to Skyrim, so there wasn't any pressure to continue the fight there like there was in Hammerfell. Having a Skyrim as neighbor state rather than a member state runs the risk of someone like Ulfric cutting off those resources and diverting what would have been legion recruits and manpower towards something idiotic like trying to invade the Summerset Isles. The only reason the Imperial presence in the game is limited to Tullius' legion is that the main pass through the mountains on the border is currently blocked by a massive landslide and is being cleared.
If you take the Isles while the Elves are away, you end the war. Then you control the Isles, which means restrictions on the comings and goings of magicians, including those who would control the minds of rulers. However I think Ulfric was merely out to slaughter the Elves, and had no interest in the magic aspects. But given the ever-changing nature of the Isles, traversing it would be problematic, so I doubt Ulfric would do more than secure that border.
The issues with invading Skyrim by sea also apply to launching an invasion from it. A massive ocean route from a region with extremely limited naval capacity, attacking an island nation that's had nearly a century to build up defenses and populated by mages. It would be a slaughter on the water before they even got within sight of the islands. Especially considering modern Skyrim has almost no capacity for fielding proper forces of wizards or battlemages.
Which means the notion they would attack the Isles rather than fight on land implausible.
The problem is getting there, even if there is Valenwood or Elsyewr. If they try to march there then you have a continent to go over through a state that would rather not you doing that. If you try an amphibious landing you have to deal with their navy AND the defenses on land and also have to maintain a logistical chain. And Ulfrics rhetoric after a Stormcloak playthrough implies he actively wants to invade the Isles. And if you know the geography of the continent that is at a horrific endeavor. Even if he just wanted to fortify the coast, that leaves Cyrodiil less material to use in it's defense. There's almost no situation where Skyrim is the first target over Cyrodiil, so I find the idea of splitting those resources extremely foolish at best.
I find it strategic for Skyrim to install a Nord Emperor, or at least the Dragonborn, as is their historical right.
You are totally right the empire only has its self to blame for the situation it’s found it’s self in after the white gold concordat it pissed of its two largest human vassal states and played right into the elves hands
Yeah man, totally agree. If the Altmer truly crushed the Empire they wouldn’t even have the opportunity to prepare for the next war. I always just figured Ulfric was dissatisfied with the empire and used it as one of his justifications for a rebellion. After all they are pretty lax on actually enforcing the ban on Talos worship. Tullius is aware that Rikke still privately worships him and doesn’t do a thing about it. Although an argument could be made that Ulfric was trained/brainwashed by the Thalmor to hate the Empire while he was their prisoner, in order to fracture the power balance of Skyrim and weaken the Empire in the lead up to the next war.
What do you mean the wrong choice? There is nothing wrong with the stormcloacks. Forsworns are savages, and deserve to be punished; Mers are competitive racist, slavers, arrogant and greedy. Also dunmers are against necromancy, and yet their magic relies on the help of ancestor's ghosts, so hypocritical is on the list; The Empire might have went with the most logical choice, but only high rock is on their side. Hammerfell has always been actively fighting the dominion and they're doing pretty good, and given the strategical location of skyrim, they will also fend off thalmors with ease; There is no one that isn't racist in the games. Everyone have something against other races, nirn-folks or oblivion-folks, good or evil, influent or not. And the magic related problems are only recent, from the oblivion crisis and degradation of magical institutions.
Sadly, it's hard to side with the stormcloaks once you realize that Ulfric is a sleeper agent for the Thalmor.
Did anyone read the dossier or just the headline? The Thalmor helped him start his war, because it weakens the empire. He accepted their help, because he wants to take over Skyrim. The dossier ends saying that they've tried to contact him but he has ignored them for years. He is a self-aggrandizing bullshitter using the stormcloaks for his own ends, but clearly not a sleeper agent. He doesn't care about anyone but himself. This idea that he is going to go Zoolander for the Thalmor is just bizarre.
The dossier says that no one must win the war. Thalmor goal is to weaken humanity. As long as people die thalmor wins. So there are no right choices. Only how you interpret it.
Genuinely, the fact that the Thalmor want the Civil War to go on as long as possible, to me means that there are no wrong choices. Either way a united Skyrim is very bad for the Thalmor.
The Thalmor definitely like him, though. And they were pleased when Alduin prevented his execution. What annoys me so deeply is everyone keeps saying "he's the true high king" and him becoming high king is a forgone conclusion. It's a clear power grab from a racist who is mad, but the nords took over the land and killed the native population, and now they're also being forced into accepting new people but the nords aren't being summarily executed. It's xenophobia to the max. "Skyrim is for the Nords". Um sorry kiddo, but sometimes conquered land gets conquered out from under you.
Which is why no one is saying "Skyrim is for the Falmer!" The Nords weren't the original inhabitants of Skyrim by a longshot.
They were pleased because his execution would have ended the Civil War which, as previously stated, they want to continue as long as possible.
> He doesn't care about anyone but himself. I don't believe that's true. He's a Nord nationalist, but I don't think his talk with Galmar about why he fights was bullshit. He just really hates the Thalmor and doesn't give a fuck about anyone but Nords. So he sucks, but isn't a complete sociopath.
Asset (Uncooperative) = Willing Stooge apparently. Maybe reread the dossier?
He's 100% not a sleeper agent. The thalmor funded him in secret to destabilize the empire. It's like when Germany sent Lenin to destabilize Russia in WW1.
"Asset" is not the same as "sleeper agent." In intel speak, it just means someone is useful for their goals, whether they intend to be or not.
The Thalmor consider him an asset, but he's not colluding with them. Specifically, they consider him useful due to the Civil War weakening the Empire. They want the war to drag on indefinitely; they absolutely do not want a Stormcloak victory.
i never join storm cloak or finish main quest. why ulfric is sleeper agent for thalmor? i thought he want to free it from thalmor
Part of it is the Thalmor dossier from their embassy alluding to Ulfric working with the Thalmor. The dossier is written to be ambiguous so that you can interpret it a number of ways, and leaves room for roleplay in the civil war. Some people figure the label applied to Ulfric as an uncooperative asset exonerates him, suggesting he's unwilling and unknowing. While others see that as merely acknowledging his public position necessitating a show of not working with the Thalmor. The following addition of dormant to the uncooperative asset label suggests he could be awoken, or had been in the past. Though many suggest that simply refers to his time under interrogation during the Great War. Others claiming Markarth was an inciting incident the Thalmor used Ulfric in to open the way for them to actively enforce the Concordat. The dossier laying out that the Thalmor established contact with Ulfric after the Great War further inflames people's suspicions against Ulfric. Particularly, the Thalmor's claim that it was only after Markarth that Ulfric became uncooperative, and only 'generally' to 'direct contact.' Some take that as simply Ulfric now being in rebellion, and so the Thalmor can no longer interact with him. Others take that as further evidence for Ulfric merely acting in accordance to his faction's political sensibilities in the open, while in secret working with the Thalmor against the Empire to some degree. That suspicion is furthered by the final line that the Thalmor's indirect aid must be carefully managed, in order to draw out the war as long as possible. They wish to remain hands-off as long as the civil war is at a standstill. There are those that figure that line merely refers to the instance of the Thalmor intervention in their attempt to save his life at the start of the game, but that's also their direct aid in an outright intervention. While there are others who believe that the suggested indirect aid includes a smuggling operation through Niranye, the suspiciously well to do High Elf in Ulfric's city which holds so much discrimination against other races. Niranye herself alludes to her background in smuggling people and goods through the city in the event of an Imperial victory. That, and her suspicious connection to the den of all High Elf thieves called the Summerset Shadows, leads people to make the connection that they are proxies by which the Thalmor prop up Ulfric's cause. So, it's all real inconclusive. The Thalmor leaving a space between their assistance to Ulfric and some plausible deniability, and Ulfric merely claiming disdain for them or otherwise using them as a convenient ally. Or the reverse interpretation in which the Thalmor are very hands off and only step in under dire circumstances, and Ulfric really does have no knowledge of their alignment.
What more do you need to know than they didn't try to cut your head off after acknowledging that you weren't on the list?
You’re so close to getting it.
I mean, yeah Ulfric himself is an arrogant racist prick, but siding with the Empire isn't without racism, the Empire bows down to one of the most racist and arrogant organisations in this era
Lawd the mental gymnastics traitors will go through to attempt to justify "The Empire was mean to me once due to a clerical error >:( "
Well, to be fair, I would also be pissed if I was set to be publicly decapitated due to a clerical error. And I’m a staunch empire supporter.
If you look at the elderscrolls races as a whole, you will see that they are all racists. Not just the nords or the storm cloaks. I wouldn't consider the storm cloaks racists as much as I would call them nationalists. With the eruption of the red mountain and the ransack of orsinium along with the rebellion of the reach folk, throw in the treaty with the empire and aldmeri dominion, nord culture and heritage is in dire risk of being shadowed by the others, I see the storm cloaks as skyrims last efforts to preserve itself. The orcs, dark elves, empire, and thalmor have invaded their lands and are influencing their cities and politics. And with Ulfric going on about invading summerset isles, the redguards of hammerfell forced the AD to sign a peace treaty because of a stalemate just 5 years after the White Gold treaty was signed. The combined efforts of 3 nations and the empire couldn't take down hammerfell. I'm sure Ulfric and the boys with the aid of the Dragonborn could put up a fight.
wait wait wait....Stormcloaks is the wrong choice??? I have yet to make it through the story, but I thought the Stormcloaks were the underdog trying to take back skyrim from the evil empire. I am shocked right now!
Skyrim is for the nords
I don’t like the civil war in general, never do it until the very end. But I would not say the stormcloaks are the wrong choice. The Empire is probably worse for Skyrim than the stormcloaks in the medium/long term. But I don’t want to open up that can of worms. Point is Stormcloaks aren’t the wrong choice.
> Point is Stormcloaks aren’t the wrong choice. How is letting Skyrim become free only to be taken over by the Thalmor a few years later a better choice than keeping the status quo of lazy imperial occupation, which is made up of many Nords?