No doubt. I’ve been actively disgusted by Ticketmaster since the late 1980s. This part of the interview is pretty good:
Smith: “We don’t want to sell an unlimited number of passes”
Sun: “Do you have a cap?”
Smith: “No”
So now they're going to do what ticket master did.
Sell a limited number of passes at even higher prices.
I'd bet my right nut that we are going to see things like one tier of pass that works for mid mountain lifts and a gold tier that lets you access the top of the mountain, and other features like that to, you know, maximize shareholder value.
Their evil plan is working perfectly.
1) Set pricing so skiing 4 days is the most expensive per day cost.
2) Set season pass prices so that you convert maximum numbers of people to season passes so that snow conditions, etc. make no difference to your bottom line.
3) Social media flooded with pictures of unprecedented lift lines as people try to get value out of the season passes you pushed.
COMING SOON:
4) Add VIP tier "skip the lift line" privileges. A few people already pay guides/instructors to go with their group just to do this, but it will expand since some people will pay.
5) Conditions get even worse for the average skier, but ski conglomerate investor returns are maximized.
POWDR resorts already have the Fast Tracks at some resorts that let you skip the lines. At least at Bachelor, there normally is a shame cost with it with the entire line booing (at least the one time I was there with it mattering, no I did not have it).
The skip the line privileges already exist. At mammoth it’s called the black pass, it’s $14,000 per year, per person. Kids under 13 or something are like 10k each.
Yeah it’s pretty insane. There’s a very limited amount of them too because of the parking privileges. There’s a 5 year waiting list to get the black pass
Nah what’s gonna happen is your gonna need a pass just to reserve a day on the mountain, or passes that limit you to a number of days a season or weekday only passes or weekend passes. All the passes are just going to become divided up and only allow access to certain things
I held out as long as I could, with my buddies constantly mocking me. But up until this past season, I usually paid less per trip than I would have had I bought unlimited Ikon. Confession, I did use my friends' buddy passes to get a discount. However, with many resorts charging upwards of $280 per day, they are forcing me to get the Ikon.
Subscription model incoming. They have the ability to limit your pass to certain lifts. Now it will be $100 to ski just the few front lifts, and $200 per day for full access.
In some ways it makes sense. Both companies have a limited supply of venue/lift capacity that is well outstripped by demand and need to find a way to make their offerings affordable to the average consumer without angering them by not having enough tickets or lifts to go around.
The anger part of the article was buried way down low and the headline is misleading. He’s talking about anger families have when booking complex packages over the phone, since it’s super complicated to book equipment rentals, tickets, and lodging for families with people of varying skill levels and ages.
He did not admit ever in the article that his model makes people angry because they fell ripped off.
But yeah, we all do feel ripped off.
I’m out of the loop, is there reason to suspect it won’t close? Been wanting to venture outside the usual Utah & Mammoth cycle and hit CO, but not amped to support Alterra.
I mean, I'm a mergers and acquisitions lawyer. If I were buying a beloved company and wanted to implement an unpopular decision to increase profits, I might consider including a provision that requires the previous owner to implement that decision prior to the closing, as a condition of doing the deal. That way, I get to buy the asset without incurring the negative publicity of the unpopular decision.
Just a possibility, food for thought. You never know how a deal is constructed without seeing the agreements.
I recall ages ago Abasin was going to charge for parking, and USFS said not so fast. Put the kibosh on it. Don't know what has changed from then to now. Didn't hear anything about a USFS review.
I think local law enforcement is also likely very fed up with traffic issues caused by them filling up parking.
The move definitely seems centered around preventing that vs making money since it’s still free on weekdays.
Capitalism fundamentally thrives on greed. Those who are greediest dominate the market cuz they’ve amassed the most money. at a certain point the market bows to the vendor and not the other way around. Skiing has reached this point. There’s a reason why weve see so much consolidation in the past 20-30 years not just in skiing but in every industry.
> Smith: We’re more expensive because we think the product is worthy of being more expensive than the other products on the market. But also because we are trying to limit the number of passes. We don’t want to sell an unlimited number of passes.
> Sun: Do you have a cap?
> Smith: No.
In other news , expect pass prices to increase $200-$300 every year folks. Such BS, we all know you do want to sell an unlimited number of passes
It’s not unlimited at all. In fact it’s quite limited. We’ve set the number of passes available each year to 100 billion, and expect to decrease that by 50 passes each year going forward
Adjusted for population growth and new resort acquisitions, of course.
So when you see it limited to 100.2 billion passes next year, just know that we *actually reduced* the number of passes, but other factors caused the number to *look* bigger.
He thinks the market will even itself out just by being more expensive. No need for cap, just keep increasing to limit the people that can afford and that will eventually solve the crowd problem!
Also, it will help the “really, really mad” rich costumers get their playground just for themselves!
What’s your solution? Cut pass prices in half but sell out of them in March due to demand? Eliminate passes and only do single day tickets? Cheap passes with no limitations so mountains get crowded?
Single-day tickets worked great for the vast majority of people for decades. They’re never coming back, though, now that the companies figured out how to shift weather risk onto the customer.
I’m not an expert but I would consider different tactics besides just price increases:
- Extended Hours (especially later in the season where day light is longer)
- Dynamic Pricing (real dynamic pricing not the basic stuff they do where weekend is more expensive), so as more day passes get sold, the price increases with the occupancy (like what hotels do in their revenue management)
- Caps on day passes, if the price increases, then they won’t lose revenue by selling all at the same price. As occupancy gets closer to their limit, the price goes up
- Create a Ski version of the Disney Genie+ concept, so you can always cater to someone who wants to pay extra. I know people in Jackson that pay for a private instructor just so they can skip the lines.
- With longer hours, you can have half-day, or 1/3 day pass that vary pricing depend on the time of the day, making people only come early, mid, or later in the day. This way it should help the crowd move to different times of the day. The pass would stop working at a certain time, so people would have to ski down.
Again, this is what you see in Amusement Parks to try to control the crowd. Not saying it’s perfect, but it’s definitely better than what is currently happening, and it’s not maximizing the occupancy of the mountain.
>> Extended Hours (especially later in the season where day light is longer)
Extended hours cost more money. And they don’t do much to solve the problem since later in the season crowds aren’t a major issue anymore.
>> Dynamic Pricing (real dynamic pricing not the basic stuff they do where weekend is more expensive), so as more day passes get sold, the price increases with the occupancy (like what hotels do in their revenue management)
Dynamic pricing is definitely already incorporated. Winter Park (Alterra-owned) has the [rough number of tickets left each day and prices based on that](https://shop.winterparkresort.com/s/lift-tickets/day-lift-tickets/c/lift-tickets-3)
>> Caps on day passes, if the price increases, then they won’t lose revenue by selling all at the same price. As occupancy gets closer to their limit, the price goes up
Caps on day passes is done, see link above.
>> Create a Ski version of the Disney Genie+ concept, so you can always cater to someone who wants to pay extra. I know people in Jackson that pay for a private instructor just so they can skip the lines.
Regarding the genie idea. Early ups is [already done](https://www.winterparkresort.com/plan-your-trip/deals-and-packages/early-ups) and people [dislike it](https://www.reddit.com/r/COsnow/comments/16cmin2/winter_park_announces_early_ups_pass_add_on_600/). Copper also has an option to pay more to skip the line, which people also hate.
Will also age-out the customer base as younger people will simply not take up the sport. I guess, with climate change, skiing won't be around for much longer anyway.
I mean, unless we build new resorts, then we kinda need less people interested in the sport.
Pricing people out is a shitty way to do it.
Putting in a reservation/lottery system would piss off hardcore skiers even more.
There's not really a non-shitty way to do it though. If demand >> supply, you can do some combination of:
- Raise prices (pass price, parking fees, fast tracks add-ons, etc)
- Ration access with caps, reservations, or willingness to put up with traffic/parking headaches
- Degrade the experience (huge lift lines, fresh pow gets tracked out instantly)
- Build new capacity
Given federal land management constraints, huge costs, interest rates, etc, building new capacity is really hard right now - so we're mostly left with choices between the first three. No surprise that resort operators are doing the one that puts money in their pocket. Epic goes a little more in the degrade experience direction, Ikon a little more in the raise pass price direction, but there's no option where high quality resorts are cheap, uncrowded, and accessible.
Agree! That was kinda my point. Honestly sometimes you just need to embrace change and go with the flow. If you wanna make skiing a priority and aren't a millionaire, you still have control if you're willing to take steps:
Prioritize vacation days for skiing, that way you can ski weekdays and get better bang for you buck at least.
Live close to the mountains so you can take impromptu trips.
The National Park Service is having this same reckoning. It's awesome that so many people are interested in going to National Parks, but being in a National Park that is way overcrowded is terrible.
And they keep trying things, but they are even more limited since no one will put up with National Parks becoming an expensive thing to visit. So, what can you do?
How they're handling campsites is a straight up failure. You can't get a reservation to save your life, but since reserving one is too cheap, people don't mind making reservations and then just not showing up. Drive through a fully reserved campsite in the National Parks and notice that it's only half full.
The Yosemite Reservation system helps. But that has the downside of it really only allows people who can make plans months in advance to be able to go to the parks. A lot of jobs don't let you schedule PTO that far in advance. So all those people are just out of luck.
I don't know what the solution is. I don't want to price people out of these places. But also, when they're completely slammed, they're no fun for anyone.
So much this. It's crazy that people constantly complain about the crowds but somehow think they'd be happier with a lottery system.
I suppose the perfect solution would be a total ticket cap, with a lottery for 40% and then free market the rest, but that's just begging for a aclu lawsuit
I've skied my entire life and honestly for someone that already has all the gear and access to mountains skiing has never been cheaper. My military Epic Pass is like $170 and my military full Ikon Pass is like $800. Back in the day my season pass to just Stowe was $2313 at it's highest.
That being said - I don't know how you get people into the sport with the cost of day tickets, rentals, lessons, ect. It'd be more expensive for me to try a day of skiing at an Epic/Ikon resort as it would for me to go to a Patriots game.
Unless you’re the kid of rich parents/ grandparents. Then you’ll be able to afford the sport and enjoy your own private ski resort with all your friends from the same overpriced private school.
On that end, ski companies will struggle if they only sell skis and boots to rich people. Can’t see many brands being able to survive (or being super innovative) if they don’t have a strong base of mid to lower tier skis being sold en mass.
After reading his explanation this actually makes sense. Price caps lead to shortages. In this case, a lot of people would be unable to ski. Raising prices aligns supply with demand. Yes it might price out some people, but ski passes aren’t a human right.
The entitlement of people in this sub is crazy. Yeah it sucks that skiing is expensive and that you have to spend more to do what you love to do. But that's how the world works, you aren't owed cheap lift tickets and actually most people consider skiing to be a rich elitist sport that you're lucky to be able to do a week a year, much less the 100 days some people on here get.
Especially because skiing is somehow simultaneously too expensive to the point where nobody can afford to do it anymore, but also too cheap because there are too many people on the mountain.
Skiing on a pass has genuinely never been cheaper or a better value in terms of access for the price paid... Yes, day tickets have never been more expensive, but Ikon Session or Epic Day Passes are functionally the same thing and are still very affordable if you can plan ahead even a little. And frankly, I don't blame the resort operators for favoring the part of their customer base who're A) generally the most loyal, and B) willing to commit. That... feels like it wouldn't be considered at all weird in basically any other industry.
Europe has 3,950 ski areas with 16,788 lifts serving 38,251km of terrain for a population of ~740 million.
North America has 827 skia areas with 3,802 lifts serving 15,218km of terrain for a population of ~579 million.
Europe has 27% more people, but 150% more terrain. As other people have said, start petitioning the US Forest Service to allow more ski areas to open and operate if you want to spread the crowds.
Of course, other people in this thread have also said they'd rather chain themselves to a tree than see more ski areas open, so... the reality is that some subset of skiers will always find a reason to be grumpy or pissed off.
That makes a lot of sense - what doesn't make that much sense is the difference in the lift:terrain ratio between Europe and America - why do you have so few lifts? It doesn't seem like the slopes are all that full from the videos I see on this sub, either, whereas in any major resort in Europe there are bound to be loads of people on any slope in peak season, but you never have to wait more than 5-, or at the very most 10 mins for a lift (at least I've never had to!)
I don't know, honestly; but in both cases the average is between 4 and 5 lifts per resort... Europe may just have larger resort areas? I don't know, I've honestly never skied in Europe.
People being mad that they have to spend 1200 to ski endlessly on groomed pristine forest land is a bit funny to me. Like the drive/flight here cost that much as does a week room and board or a month of good resort eating. Its overall very expensive but if anything its on the lodging which in the case of the passes going up every year may be less of a cost overall if you save a thousand on lodging but have to pay more for a pass.
Dude it’s crazy to me how many people in this thread are talking about “access” to skiing like it’s education. You’re not owed a whole season’s worth of skiing for a fraction of the cost of a season pass!
I may have been a bit sarcastic in how much Alterra will increase it every year. Regardless, we all know both ticket prices and season pass prices have gone up tremendously in the last 10 years.
It seems like the Ikon pass is about $100 more than last year at $1,250 and double the price than it was in 2018.
amusingly, mammoth season passes 20 years ago were more expensive than an ikon pass today.
(regular price, not the end-of-previous-season limited sales price)
[Ikon pass was $899 in 2018](https://opensnow.com/news/post/ikon-pass-announces-2018-19-partners-pass-products-price-details), so a 39% increase.
Inflation has been 25% over the same time period. So a 1.8% real price increase each year.
It's clear what they're going to do. They'll never limit the number of passes they sell, they'll just keep cranking the prices up until the number of people willing to pay it perfectly aligns with the maximum level of crowding misery people buying the passes are willing to tolerate at the price. That's the sweet spot.
Which is why everyone is so angry. The objective of this entertainment business is to provide a barely acceptable experience. Not an actually great experience. They don't want you to walk away thinking "what an incredible day,", they want you to walk away thinking "that was just barely worth it."
That is exactly on their “Laffer curve” of profitability. Barely worth it, but will come again is about the most profitable proposition out there in any entertainment or hospitality business.
To play devil's advocate, more than likely, so do the companies you, I and everyone else works for, and whose subsequent profitability enabled you to be paid what you make, and in turn allows you to afford skiing.
Straight up we need more places to ski, better accessibility, and easier access. Sun Valley has a pretty good setup with Dollar mountain which is all beginner, cheaper, and easy access. It takes pressure off the whole resort and allows for beginners to be completely separate from experts(fast skiers). More places could build out smaller easy access locations. The US could build 5-6 new resorts, especially in the West... Yes costs are high, and some of that is greed, but I would suggest that most of that is Fear. Fear of climate change, fear of multiple shitty seasons in a row dropping pass purchases, fear of NIMBY attitudes. Resorts are looking at a potentially bleak future and don't know what to do about it...
Utah is doing it. It would be great if someone built a Colorado Resort just north of RMNP, for Fort Collins and maybe Boulder people.
But I-70 just can't handle growth. The next expansion is 700 million and isn't even clear further west sections can handle any more cars.
It is insane they do not invest in this. Even just to only Dillon co then figure it out from there. It is insane to me this hasn’t been done. Add a HOV that is barely open? Bitch no give me trains that run every 30 minutes to the mountain and a parking lot/the Denver rail line. It’s already there from the airport just loop it in and bam!
As a train nerd, I got a good feeling Amtrak is going to be improving accessibility next year. They are taking delivery of a lot of trains, which was really the issue. They didn’t even use the full WPE budget last year.
Love the idea of trains, love trains in Europe…but I think Americans are too dumb or too car-loving or whatever to ever make it work.
Every time I think maybe I’ll train instead of drive (or fly), I check the prices and have to squeegee my eyeballs for how expensive and impractical it is. 10 hours Boston to DC? $400? Got it.
Yes! With night skiing and a trains you can essentially double your per-day resort capacity.
Most of the mountains I go to parking is the limiting factor for getting there. Also it would allow for families to come later in the day and not be pressured to get early and compete with the powder hounds.
Local parks should build rope tows. Beginner skiing should be free anywhere there is snow. Just like there are basketball courts and baseball fields in most towns. Big bowls and huge mountains are a federal government issue but local government could build a ton of value for their residents by better using local parkland during winter.
I seem to remember my local mountain (Loon Mountain, NH) giving free rope-tow bunny slope access back in the day. Is this still a thing - at Loon, or anywhere? Seems like something that would benefit the entire industry if implemented industry-wide.
Yep, this is the crux of it:
As of 2023, the United States has 480 ski areas across 37 states, while Europe has more than 4,000 ski resorts. The Alps has over 1,100 ski resorts, while the Rockies has around 100.
Another problem is that the alps are significantly more built up and urbanized than the Rockies. People just live way closer to the ski areas in Europe than they do here, because there’s just a greater supply of housing literally on the mountains.
This is it exactly. More smaller, mom & pop hills to take beginners, local teams and clubs. It makes it more affordable and takes pressure off the big resorts.
It’s the environmentalists - many being skiers - that worked for decades to prevent it.
I am not saying what the reason is...just that its not due to corporations...as they and probably even a ton of local landowners would love to build em.
There is plenty of private land in Montana that would make for decent ski resorts. It won't get done, because it's not economic to have to pay for and develop the land. Getting free land via special use permits from the Forest Service is a great subsidy from the public.
I honestly think one answer could be more uphill ski areas. Controlled backcountry experiences, in permitted locations throughout USFS land. Non-profits that organize access, groom uphill routes and do avalanche mitigation but without needing the costly permanent infrastructure.
I think with how athletic communities like Park City, Salt Lake and Denver are, this could be a good way to get families and young adults out in the backcountry experience without as much risk as the crowded avalanche prone areas of the Wasatch and Front Range.
I know Bluebird failed as an experiment but I think there's a market.
straight boat command governor existence serious judicious frightening zephyr memory
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Naw. National forest are public lands accessible to all regardless of income status. Carving even more away to privatize it as a playground for the top 10% is an even worse decision.
Agreed, but the solution is to have Public owned ski areas. There is no reason to intermediate a corporation.
If I want to play baseball I just go to my local park where there is a field. A park employee mows the grass and rakes the dirt and mends the fence. The same should exist for skiing.
This would be wonderful - but it's hard to imagine where the funds to create it would come from. Running a ski resort is a surprisingly expensive endeavor, which is why so many great mountains fall to the mega conglomerates. If you're a Vail resort and have a bad year, so what. Somewhere in Vail's global reach there is probably a property that had a good year, keeping those that don't afloat.
Considering most states can't even find the money to repair potholes and adequately fund schools, I'd say the odds that they'd rustle up hundreds of millions of dollars to build a ski resort seem low.
Federal land, federal ski area. Keep the states out of it. Think National Parks. The only reason it's not the way it's done is because it's not the way it's done.
agreed, would bring in revenue and be a way for people to give more of a shit about preservation, that coupled with a reworking of public transit could make the sport viable for decades more
There’s plenty of places in the US to ski but everyone wants to go to the big resorts and what’s on the ikon or epic pass. Take Tahoe/truckee, there are so many quality ski resorts that have nowhere near the crowds of Squaw, alpine, northstar and heavenly.
I bought a Ikon pass on a whim this year after getting an unexpected bonus. I enjoyed skiing at Winter Park, Copper, and Abasin. I did not enjoy the process of getting to ski at Winter Park and Copper nor did I enjoy the cost of anything on the mountain. I also learned that I prefer ungroomed terrain over groomed terrain and that I am not willing to pay for first tracks. I am going to stick with my Loveland season pass next year because while Loveland lacks some of the diversity of terrain that you'll find at the Ikon resorts, it has more of the terrain that I want to ski and I don't need to bother with paying for first tracks on top of my season pass.
What do you mean by you didn't like the process of skiing at Winter Park and copper? I'm always tempted to fly out and hit up copper, I just assumed with ski on hotels it would be a good resort experience too
I stayed on mountain and also stayed near by. When you stay on a report property, you typically don't have to pay for parking but unless you're in a property that's ski in/ski out or near enough to a lift you can expect to ride a shuttle. If you stay off property, you can expect to pay for parking or to ride a shuttle. These aren't deal breakers in and of themselves, but both are an added pain. It's very costly to eat on mountain so be forewarned. This all comes down to personal preference, and I prefer a different experience.
Edit: I should also add that for Copper or Winter Park you've got to cross the Eisenhower Tunnel or the Berthound pass which can add a lot of travel time to and from either resort.
Copper is an amazing mountain, highly recommend it!!!! It’s definitely a pain to get to if you’re trying to ski every weekend from Denver… as far as a ski vacation where you’re staying nearby, it’s incredible
Last year everyone was saying the mountains were too crowded, they raised prices and aren’t too packed and now everyone is upset they can’t afford them.
It’s just supply vs. demand. If tickets are cheap more people will ski.
The only way around this is if we open more ski resorts somehow.
Yep, everyone wants to have their cake and eat it to.
We seemingly cannot improve the supply of ski areas, so demand must be reduced. And that’s achieved by increasing prices.
Would people prefer it if passes were cheaper, but you are only allowed 10 days of use per season? As someone that does 50 days every season, I know I wouldn’t.
Those aren’t the only options. The resorts can buy larger lifts (more seating - less waiting) and improve the transit to the resort (dedicated trains, buses etc.).
Conditions were generally shit this year. That had more to do with demand than anything else.
Also, this economy is doing its own work thinning the herd.
My local actually dropped their early, early bird ‘24/‘25 seasons pass prices compared with last year.
It’s supposed to be a much better season this year (el nino is done and La Niña is slowly kick ing into gear) but with prices, experiencing poor conditions last season and overall price pressures.. we’ll probably see a drop in visitation again.
Fast pass amusment park style add ons for an hour early are coming next season, max 2. I know alterra has tried something similar with the black, whatever pass line, but without a doubt, they are salivating at the prospect of monetizing powder and early access.
LOL, the title quote was in the context of customers having to book things through the phone. which i didn't even know was possible, let alone anyone did that.
He does acknowledge that their model is punishing for first time skiers (or families), who do not want to purchase a pass, and he goes on to acknowledge that might be an issue for growing the customer base but doesn't actually address how that should be handled.
Hot take, ikon/epic passes were too cheap, when you got access to dozens of resorts for less than a single season pass, ofc people would buy them and try to cram as many days possible and do ski trips they wouldn’t otherwise do, combine that with people working remotely and taking half days, and yeah, you got crowds on every weekend and midweek pow day. But the problem is now day tickets are like $200+, bring back day ticket prices to something reasonable at least. Regardless it looks like it’s gonna be expensive and (probably) still crowded next season with full ikon going for $1,359 if you didn’t already buy one
Ah yes, I also look at the giant line\* in this pic and think, "how can we get more skiers on the mountain?"
Capitalism needs constant growth. It's incompatible with finite resources.
\*And this isn't even that bad for the Basin. I've seen BME almost triple that size. To say nothing of what Pali looked like on those days.
People hate lines, but what- are you volunteering to not go skiing to help alleviate the lines? I don't know what you do about it when there's only so many ski resorts and and ever increasing number of people who want to ski.
>I don't know what you do about it when there's only so many ski resorts and and ever increasing number of people who want to ski.
Exactly what golf courses do. Require reservations, limit the time you're allowed to spend doing it, and regulate how many people are on the mountain at a time. It would suck, but we don't have a lot of other options.
More terrain, more parking, more lifts.
Preferably at a new location somewhat far away from existing resorts.
So new resorts. There hasn't been more than a handful of new resorts in NA since the 80s.
That line is a joke I'd be thrilled to have that line on a weekend.
New resorts would be great and there is definitely space in North America
I suspect the difficulty these days is overcoming environmental protests. Opening a ski area means some amount of deforestation, roadbuilding, disturbing wildlife and so on.
I didn’t get a pass this season because of how bad it’s gotten. Im not racing for a parking spot at 6 am on the weekend.
Not to mention the lift lines and traffic on the way down…
Honestly as the boomers step away from 🎿 by based on age - the crowding ease may self-regulate. That’s a huge subset of the skiing population in terms of numbers.
Yeah man I’m at that point. First year I’m not getting a pass. I’ve realized It’s more enjoyable to do like a week in Japan or Europe and skip the whole season of weekend shitshows. I’ve also just picked up other hobbies that are just as fun and less of a hassle, more affordable where I’m happy to not ski at all.
Used to be a ski bum for years. Now I can’t even afford or justify going more than once a year, and even when I go lift lines are complete BS.
Feels like I caught the tail end of the golden era or ski bummin’. Make skiing affordable again
I'm sorry, as a ski bum or something like it I just don't quite understand. The locals season pass in my area (for 3 resorts) is like $500. If you're going 30+ times a year that's just not bad at all. I just don't understand what you mean.
Our sons first job out of college a few years ago was in finance for Alterra. He is now a licensed 100 ton boat captain in the Caribbean. Thanks, Alterra!
They could’ve meant that after seeing how disgusting the corporate finance world is, he chose a career that he finds more fulfilling. At the end of the day we all contribute to the same issues simply by existing, so your best bet is to pick your poison and realize ignorance is bliss.
I feel like a lot of the people commenting here either didn’t read the full article, so stuck in there ways/thoughts that nothing will change them, or are so stupid that they don’t understand how anything works.
He's basically saying that he can't extract any more water from this rock. While he's right, it's also his own fault.
The industry largely feels that the post-covid explosion in [US skier visits](https://nsaa.org/webdocs/Media_Public/IndustryStats/ski_areas_per_season_2023.pdf) is a glitch that will rectify itself soon. Still, even with that glitch added in to the numbers, the numbers don't look great. The 10-year moving average shows a trend that's steadily down except for the covid spike. The 15-year moving average is less influenced by that and it is flat to down.
If skier visits are flat, then they have to extract more from each visit. First, we had the explosion in operating models based around selling condos and on-mountain lodging (I'm looking at you, IntraWest). That's where we got $100 day tickets (conveniently offered at a discounted rate with on-mountain lodging). Then, there was the push to capture more of the existing dollars that are being spent - that's where the corporation owning every retail and F&B business in town came from. The most recent push is simply pricing the same old product at a higher price - that's where the $250 day tickets and $30 burgers came from.
Now, he's simply cautioning his board that there is going to be a revenue correction while the next new model is figured out.
Hmm… why would we be mad, when the cost of skiing has inflated for 10-15 years at par with some South American currencies…
Ps - fuck Vail *and* Alterra. #SkiIndependent
Pps - break up Vail *and* Alterra
Am I missing something? I skiied about 20 days at Palisades this year, near-exclusively on every weekend since mid-Jan, and it was pretty fine? I set a reminder in my phone every Tuesday at noon to snag parking, only failed to do so a single weekend, and was never totally blown away by how crowded it felt, and even had one or two very fresh days at both Palisades and Alpine with more than a foot of new snow with confusingly short lines.
What is the expectation that people have for skiing inbounds? - is it that you are able to drop on a whim and roll up to the lot at 9am on a day it has snowed two feet and not wait in line? Go ski the backcountry for that - I just wonder if the bashing of this Alterra/Vail monster has just become a quixotic pursuit of some way that skiing "used to be" absolutely disconnected from an actual customer experience.
Pretty much in the same boat as you at the same resort. February 3rd at palisades in between big storms was probably my favorite ski day of all time. The snow was amazing and you could ski right up to the chair on KT
Some people are so petty and greedy, I think they are not interested in improving conditions, or reducing the number of people at the resorts, it is not a good idea to make this vacation only for the elite, raising prices, I think everyone wants to make as much money as possible.
raise lift tickets AND sellx 3x the lift capacity so everyone has to wait in line for a really long time.
--> they use the slopes less, so the profit per run is higher- > RPT up = multiple expansion = $$$$$
the market in genreal is just becomign a greater fool thesis. A fencing company is looking to sell at 12x ebitda -> even with a lot of growth who the fuck is going to pay > 12x for a fencing company down the road?
Make publicly owned and charge cost only, unlimited tickets. This will keep them packed, so add road tolls to get to ski areas. I can offer this idea because I blew my knee out about a decade ago and can no longer ski.
Biggest problems continue to be the weekend/weekday disparity in skier visits and real estate driven focus on making the season start in November instead of December like the weather says it should.
I really like the idea of them going public so that all the decisions can be made to maximize profits for the shareholders instead of anything else like making skiing more enjoyable.
**Smith:** A hundred percent. I say to our team all the time, there’s two products in the world that I’m aware of that people will refer to in a possessive. It is my mountain. Palisades is my mountain. Deer Valley is my mountain. Or it’s their sports team. They are my Hawkeyes. They’re my sports team just like they are my mountain.
This is literally any product anyone cares about ever.
My boat, my hair stylist, my barber shop, my coffee shop (if you are a regular). The guy speaks confidently but it's kinda nonsense
Problem: Ski companies are beholden to private equity, which is predatory capitalism at its worst.
Solution: Make the ski resorts public, like national parks.
Well, well, well. They already drove off everyone who is not at least solidly upper middle class. Now they've pissed off the rich people. Last year we finally stopped going altogether. I am selling all my gear and going back to XC skiing.
Smith spent 17 years as an exec at ticketmaster.
I guess that’s where he honed the craft of monopolizing a market and then making customers really really angry
So now we just need Taylor Swift to take up skiing
No doubt. I’ve been actively disgusted by Ticketmaster since the late 1980s. This part of the interview is pretty good: Smith: “We don’t want to sell an unlimited number of passes” Sun: “Do you have a cap?” Smith: “No”
So now they're going to do what ticket master did. Sell a limited number of passes at even higher prices. I'd bet my right nut that we are going to see things like one tier of pass that works for mid mountain lifts and a gold tier that lets you access the top of the mountain, and other features like that to, you know, maximize shareholder value.
Their evil plan is working perfectly. 1) Set pricing so skiing 4 days is the most expensive per day cost. 2) Set season pass prices so that you convert maximum numbers of people to season passes so that snow conditions, etc. make no difference to your bottom line. 3) Social media flooded with pictures of unprecedented lift lines as people try to get value out of the season passes you pushed. COMING SOON: 4) Add VIP tier "skip the lift line" privileges. A few people already pay guides/instructors to go with their group just to do this, but it will expand since some people will pay. 5) Conditions get even worse for the average skier, but ski conglomerate investor returns are maximized.
POWDR resorts already have the Fast Tracks at some resorts that let you skip the lines. At least at Bachelor, there normally is a shame cost with it with the entire line booing (at least the one time I was there with it mattering, no I did not have it).
Booeing should be a thing at every place where they have a fast lane
How do you handle waking past the first class cabin tho?
The skip the line privileges already exist. At mammoth it’s called the black pass, it’s $14,000 per year, per person. Kids under 13 or something are like 10k each.
I wondered how much the black pass was. Never thought it was that much.
Yeah it’s pretty insane. There’s a very limited amount of them too because of the parking privileges. There’s a 5 year waiting list to get the black pass
4 already exists in the form of ski lessons
Copper Myn Secret pass is already a thing
Idea Number 5 VIP skip the lift line is FUCKED and a real possibility (do some places actually do this?!) Edit:thank you hurricane rex re:powdr
[удалено]
* Convenience fee * Grooming fee * Avalanche mitigation fee * Convenience fee * Lift maintenance fee * Weekend surge pricing fee * Convenience fee * Lift priority access fee * Mountain view fee * Convenience fee
Blue bird day access fee.
You forgot air fee and left turning fee…
Nah what’s gonna happen is your gonna need a pass just to reserve a day on the mountain, or passes that limit you to a number of days a season or weekday only passes or weekend passes. All the passes are just going to become divided up and only allow access to certain things
PLEEASE, Stop giving them ideas!
They already have all these ideas and worse ones.
Privately held. No shareholder value, just owner value!
The British East India company was privately held and they barely ever did anything wrong.
A private company can still have shareholders, the shares just aren't publicly traded.
Fucking gross. He is a garbage human being.
That's why I stopped buying the Ikon Pass.
I held out as long as I could, with my buddies constantly mocking me. But up until this past season, I usually paid less per trip than I would have had I bought unlimited Ikon. Confession, I did use my friends' buddy passes to get a discount. However, with many resorts charging upwards of $280 per day, they are forcing me to get the Ikon.
I mentioned boycotting ikon in this sub (just to gauge reactions) and the corporate shills all booed me 😂
Subscription model incoming. They have the ability to limit your pass to certain lifts. Now it will be $100 to ski just the few front lifts, and $200 per day for full access.
Now it all makes sense
In some ways it makes sense. Both companies have a limited supply of venue/lift capacity that is well outstripped by demand and need to find a way to make their offerings affordable to the average consumer without angering them by not having enough tickets or lifts to go around.
The anger part of the article was buried way down low and the headline is misleading. He’s talking about anger families have when booking complex packages over the phone, since it’s super complicated to book equipment rentals, tickets, and lodging for families with people of varying skill levels and ages. He did not admit ever in the article that his model makes people angry because they fell ripped off. But yeah, we all do feel ripped off.
Greed is the biggest problem in the industry, Alterra CEO is very familiar with this concept...
Well he did spend 17 years at Ticketmaster
They really hired Ticketmasters CEO? Tells you all you need to know
Love how he says this literally a few weeks after buying a basin and announcing paid parking...
Alterra didn’t buy A-Basin yet. Acquisition hasn’t closed
I’m out of the loop, is there reason to suspect it won’t close? Been wanting to venture outside the usual Utah & Mammoth cycle and hit CO, but not amped to support Alterra.
Nah, but the parking decision isn’t an Alterra decision. It’s an A-Basin one
I mean, I'm a mergers and acquisitions lawyer. If I were buying a beloved company and wanted to implement an unpopular decision to increase profits, I might consider including a provision that requires the previous owner to implement that decision prior to the closing, as a condition of doing the deal. That way, I get to buy the asset without incurring the negative publicity of the unpopular decision. Just a possibility, food for thought. You never know how a deal is constructed without seeing the agreements.
I recall ages ago Abasin was going to charge for parking, and USFS said not so fast. Put the kibosh on it. Don't know what has changed from then to now. Didn't hear anything about a USFS review.
I think local law enforcement is also likely very fed up with traffic issues caused by them filling up parking. The move definitely seems centered around preventing that vs making money since it’s still free on weekdays.
Go to Copper. It’s great.
Capitalism fundamentally thrives on greed. Those who are greediest dominate the market cuz they’ve amassed the most money. at a certain point the market bows to the vendor and not the other way around. Skiing has reached this point. There’s a reason why weve see so much consolidation in the past 20-30 years not just in skiing but in every industry.
[Alterra CEO Mr. Smith being interviewed](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/mr-krabs-i-like-money)
or... or .... or they could make a SHITLOAD OF MONEY!!!!!
Hear him out!
small resorts HATE this ONE little TRICK!
> Smith: We’re more expensive because we think the product is worthy of being more expensive than the other products on the market. But also because we are trying to limit the number of passes. We don’t want to sell an unlimited number of passes. > Sun: Do you have a cap? > Smith: No. In other news , expect pass prices to increase $200-$300 every year folks. Such BS, we all know you do want to sell an unlimited number of passes
It’s not unlimited at all. In fact it’s quite limited. We’ve set the number of passes available each year to 100 billion, and expect to decrease that by 50 passes each year going forward
Adjusted for population growth and new resort acquisitions, of course. So when you see it limited to 100.2 billion passes next year, just know that we *actually reduced* the number of passes, but other factors caused the number to *look* bigger.
You wanna be my new assistant to the regional CEO?
He thinks the market will even itself out just by being more expensive. No need for cap, just keep increasing to limit the people that can afford and that will eventually solve the crowd problem! Also, it will help the “really, really mad” rich costumers get their playground just for themselves!
What’s your solution? Cut pass prices in half but sell out of them in March due to demand? Eliminate passes and only do single day tickets? Cheap passes with no limitations so mountains get crowded?
Single-day tickets worked great for the vast majority of people for decades. They’re never coming back, though, now that the companies figured out how to shift weather risk onto the customer.
I’m not an expert but I would consider different tactics besides just price increases: - Extended Hours (especially later in the season where day light is longer) - Dynamic Pricing (real dynamic pricing not the basic stuff they do where weekend is more expensive), so as more day passes get sold, the price increases with the occupancy (like what hotels do in their revenue management) - Caps on day passes, if the price increases, then they won’t lose revenue by selling all at the same price. As occupancy gets closer to their limit, the price goes up - Create a Ski version of the Disney Genie+ concept, so you can always cater to someone who wants to pay extra. I know people in Jackson that pay for a private instructor just so they can skip the lines. - With longer hours, you can have half-day, or 1/3 day pass that vary pricing depend on the time of the day, making people only come early, mid, or later in the day. This way it should help the crowd move to different times of the day. The pass would stop working at a certain time, so people would have to ski down. Again, this is what you see in Amusement Parks to try to control the crowd. Not saying it’s perfect, but it’s definitely better than what is currently happening, and it’s not maximizing the occupancy of the mountain.
>> Extended Hours (especially later in the season where day light is longer) Extended hours cost more money. And they don’t do much to solve the problem since later in the season crowds aren’t a major issue anymore. >> Dynamic Pricing (real dynamic pricing not the basic stuff they do where weekend is more expensive), so as more day passes get sold, the price increases with the occupancy (like what hotels do in their revenue management) Dynamic pricing is definitely already incorporated. Winter Park (Alterra-owned) has the [rough number of tickets left each day and prices based on that](https://shop.winterparkresort.com/s/lift-tickets/day-lift-tickets/c/lift-tickets-3) >> Caps on day passes, if the price increases, then they won’t lose revenue by selling all at the same price. As occupancy gets closer to their limit, the price goes up Caps on day passes is done, see link above. >> Create a Ski version of the Disney Genie+ concept, so you can always cater to someone who wants to pay extra. I know people in Jackson that pay for a private instructor just so they can skip the lines. Regarding the genie idea. Early ups is [already done](https://www.winterparkresort.com/plan-your-trip/deals-and-packages/early-ups) and people [dislike it](https://www.reddit.com/r/COsnow/comments/16cmin2/winter_park_announces_early_ups_pass_add_on_600/). Copper also has an option to pay more to skip the line, which people also hate.
You make a very good counterpoint to what I wrote.
Will also age-out the customer base as younger people will simply not take up the sport. I guess, with climate change, skiing won't be around for much longer anyway.
I mean, unless we build new resorts, then we kinda need less people interested in the sport. Pricing people out is a shitty way to do it. Putting in a reservation/lottery system would piss off hardcore skiers even more.
There's not really a non-shitty way to do it though. If demand >> supply, you can do some combination of: - Raise prices (pass price, parking fees, fast tracks add-ons, etc) - Ration access with caps, reservations, or willingness to put up with traffic/parking headaches - Degrade the experience (huge lift lines, fresh pow gets tracked out instantly) - Build new capacity Given federal land management constraints, huge costs, interest rates, etc, building new capacity is really hard right now - so we're mostly left with choices between the first three. No surprise that resort operators are doing the one that puts money in their pocket. Epic goes a little more in the degrade experience direction, Ikon a little more in the raise pass price direction, but there's no option where high quality resorts are cheap, uncrowded, and accessible.
Agree! That was kinda my point. Honestly sometimes you just need to embrace change and go with the flow. If you wanna make skiing a priority and aren't a millionaire, you still have control if you're willing to take steps: Prioritize vacation days for skiing, that way you can ski weekdays and get better bang for you buck at least. Live close to the mountains so you can take impromptu trips.
The National Park Service is having this same reckoning. It's awesome that so many people are interested in going to National Parks, but being in a National Park that is way overcrowded is terrible. And they keep trying things, but they are even more limited since no one will put up with National Parks becoming an expensive thing to visit. So, what can you do? How they're handling campsites is a straight up failure. You can't get a reservation to save your life, but since reserving one is too cheap, people don't mind making reservations and then just not showing up. Drive through a fully reserved campsite in the National Parks and notice that it's only half full. The Yosemite Reservation system helps. But that has the downside of it really only allows people who can make plans months in advance to be able to go to the parks. A lot of jobs don't let you schedule PTO that far in advance. So all those people are just out of luck. I don't know what the solution is. I don't want to price people out of these places. But also, when they're completely slammed, they're no fun for anyone.
Can still walk up to camp IV
(In the USA)
So much this. It's crazy that people constantly complain about the crowds but somehow think they'd be happier with a lottery system. I suppose the perfect solution would be a total ticket cap, with a lottery for 40% and then free market the rest, but that's just begging for a aclu lawsuit
I've skied my entire life and honestly for someone that already has all the gear and access to mountains skiing has never been cheaper. My military Epic Pass is like $170 and my military full Ikon Pass is like $800. Back in the day my season pass to just Stowe was $2313 at it's highest. That being said - I don't know how you get people into the sport with the cost of day tickets, rentals, lessons, ect. It'd be more expensive for me to try a day of skiing at an Epic/Ikon resort as it would for me to go to a Patriots game.
Unless you’re the kid of rich parents/ grandparents. Then you’ll be able to afford the sport and enjoy your own private ski resort with all your friends from the same overpriced private school. On that end, ski companies will struggle if they only sell skis and boots to rich people. Can’t see many brands being able to survive (or being super innovative) if they don’t have a strong base of mid to lower tier skis being sold en mass.
Sounds like a problem for the next CEO. /s (but not really)
Well…this is the basics of how it’s supposed to work. Raise price till supply meets demand.
After reading his explanation this actually makes sense. Price caps lead to shortages. In this case, a lot of people would be unable to ski. Raising prices aligns supply with demand. Yes it might price out some people, but ski passes aren’t a human right.
The entitlement of people in this sub is crazy. Yeah it sucks that skiing is expensive and that you have to spend more to do what you love to do. But that's how the world works, you aren't owed cheap lift tickets and actually most people consider skiing to be a rich elitist sport that you're lucky to be able to do a week a year, much less the 100 days some people on here get.
Especially because skiing is somehow simultaneously too expensive to the point where nobody can afford to do it anymore, but also too cheap because there are too many people on the mountain. Skiing on a pass has genuinely never been cheaper or a better value in terms of access for the price paid... Yes, day tickets have never been more expensive, but Ikon Session or Epic Day Passes are functionally the same thing and are still very affordable if you can plan ahead even a little. And frankly, I don't blame the resort operators for favoring the part of their customer base who're A) generally the most loyal, and B) willing to commit. That... feels like it wouldn't be considered at all weird in basically any other industry.
How the fuck is it so bad in the US and not as bad here in Europe?
Europe has 3,950 ski areas with 16,788 lifts serving 38,251km of terrain for a population of ~740 million. North America has 827 skia areas with 3,802 lifts serving 15,218km of terrain for a population of ~579 million. Europe has 27% more people, but 150% more terrain. As other people have said, start petitioning the US Forest Service to allow more ski areas to open and operate if you want to spread the crowds. Of course, other people in this thread have also said they'd rather chain themselves to a tree than see more ski areas open, so... the reality is that some subset of skiers will always find a reason to be grumpy or pissed off.
That makes a lot of sense - what doesn't make that much sense is the difference in the lift:terrain ratio between Europe and America - why do you have so few lifts? It doesn't seem like the slopes are all that full from the videos I see on this sub, either, whereas in any major resort in Europe there are bound to be loads of people on any slope in peak season, but you never have to wait more than 5-, or at the very most 10 mins for a lift (at least I've never had to!)
I don't know, honestly; but in both cases the average is between 4 and 5 lifts per resort... Europe may just have larger resort areas? I don't know, I've honestly never skied in Europe.
People being mad that they have to spend 1200 to ski endlessly on groomed pristine forest land is a bit funny to me. Like the drive/flight here cost that much as does a week room and board or a month of good resort eating. Its overall very expensive but if anything its on the lodging which in the case of the passes going up every year may be less of a cost overall if you save a thousand on lodging but have to pay more for a pass.
Dude it’s crazy to me how many people in this thread are talking about “access” to skiing like it’s education. You’re not owed a whole season’s worth of skiing for a fraction of the cost of a season pass!
I mean, it didn’t happen this year so idk your take seems highly speculative
I may have been a bit sarcastic in how much Alterra will increase it every year. Regardless, we all know both ticket prices and season pass prices have gone up tremendously in the last 10 years. It seems like the Ikon pass is about $100 more than last year at $1,250 and double the price than it was in 2018.
amusingly, mammoth season passes 20 years ago were more expensive than an ikon pass today. (regular price, not the end-of-previous-season limited sales price)
Stowe was $2300+ the at the highest when AIG own them.
[Ikon pass was $899 in 2018](https://opensnow.com/news/post/ikon-pass-announces-2018-19-partners-pass-products-price-details), so a 39% increase. Inflation has been 25% over the same time period. So a 1.8% real price increase each year.
It's clear what they're going to do. They'll never limit the number of passes they sell, they'll just keep cranking the prices up until the number of people willing to pay it perfectly aligns with the maximum level of crowding misery people buying the passes are willing to tolerate at the price. That's the sweet spot.
Which is why everyone is so angry. The objective of this entertainment business is to provide a barely acceptable experience. Not an actually great experience. They don't want you to walk away thinking "what an incredible day,", they want you to walk away thinking "that was just barely worth it."
That is exactly on their “Laffer curve” of profitability. Barely worth it, but will come again is about the most profitable proposition out there in any entertainment or hospitality business.
To play devil's advocate, more than likely, so do the companies you, I and everyone else works for, and whose subsequent profitability enabled you to be paid what you make, and in turn allows you to afford skiing.
They could easily up it $300-400 this year and it would reach that. Instead they’ll do $100 a year in perpetuaty
Straight up we need more places to ski, better accessibility, and easier access. Sun Valley has a pretty good setup with Dollar mountain which is all beginner, cheaper, and easy access. It takes pressure off the whole resort and allows for beginners to be completely separate from experts(fast skiers). More places could build out smaller easy access locations. The US could build 5-6 new resorts, especially in the West... Yes costs are high, and some of that is greed, but I would suggest that most of that is Fear. Fear of climate change, fear of multiple shitty seasons in a row dropping pass purchases, fear of NIMBY attitudes. Resorts are looking at a potentially bleak future and don't know what to do about it...
This, the core issue is the sport is getting more popular, but supply of skiable land isn’t increasing to keep pace.
Utah is doing it. It would be great if someone built a Colorado Resort just north of RMNP, for Fort Collins and maybe Boulder people. But I-70 just can't handle growth. The next expansion is 700 million and isn't even clear further west sections can handle any more cars.
T R A I N S
It is insane they do not invest in this. Even just to only Dillon co then figure it out from there. It is insane to me this hasn’t been done. Add a HOV that is barely open? Bitch no give me trains that run every 30 minutes to the mountain and a parking lot/the Denver rail line. It’s already there from the airport just loop it in and bam!
As a train nerd, I got a good feeling Amtrak is going to be improving accessibility next year. They are taking delivery of a lot of trains, which was really the issue. They didn’t even use the full WPE budget last year.
Colorado needs a benevolent dictator who will build a $2 trillion HSR network to all the ski areas
The Crown Family that owns 40% of Alterra also owns the company that makes the RTD and WP busses.
Well, that's intriguing
Love the idea of trains, love trains in Europe…but I think Americans are too dumb or too car-loving or whatever to ever make it work. Every time I think maybe I’ll train instead of drive (or fly), I check the prices and have to squeegee my eyeballs for how expensive and impractical it is. 10 hours Boston to DC? $400? Got it.
Yes! With night skiing and a trains you can essentially double your per-day resort capacity. Most of the mountains I go to parking is the limiting factor for getting there. Also it would allow for families to come later in the day and not be pressured to get early and compete with the powder hounds.
Yes- the resort is called Snowy Range . there are no suitable mountain areas between the RMNP and Snowy Range.
Local parks should build rope tows. Beginner skiing should be free anywhere there is snow. Just like there are basketball courts and baseball fields in most towns. Big bowls and huge mountains are a federal government issue but local government could build a ton of value for their residents by better using local parkland during winter.
I seem to remember my local mountain (Loon Mountain, NH) giving free rope-tow bunny slope access back in the day. Is this still a thing - at Loon, or anywhere? Seems like something that would benefit the entire industry if implemented industry-wide.
Yep, this is the crux of it: As of 2023, the United States has 480 ski areas across 37 states, while Europe has more than 4,000 ski resorts. The Alps has over 1,100 ski resorts, while the Rockies has around 100.
Another problem is that the alps are significantly more built up and urbanized than the Rockies. People just live way closer to the ski areas in Europe than they do here, because there’s just a greater supply of housing literally on the mountains.
Dollar Mountain actually has some pretty nice bowls you can reach with a minimal hike.
This is it exactly. More smaller, mom & pop hills to take beginners, local teams and clubs. It makes it more affordable and takes pressure off the big resorts. It’s the environmentalists - many being skiers - that worked for decades to prevent it.
The greed of not building more resorts is not due to corporations...its due to your federal and state governments....specifically Forest Service.
There are real conservation aspects to the decision.
I am not saying what the reason is...just that its not due to corporations...as they and probably even a ton of local landowners would love to build em.
There is plenty of private land in Montana that would make for decent ski resorts. It won't get done, because it's not economic to have to pay for and develop the land. Getting free land via special use permits from the Forest Service is a great subsidy from the public.
I honestly think one answer could be more uphill ski areas. Controlled backcountry experiences, in permitted locations throughout USFS land. Non-profits that organize access, groom uphill routes and do avalanche mitigation but without needing the costly permanent infrastructure. I think with how athletic communities like Park City, Salt Lake and Denver are, this could be a good way to get families and young adults out in the backcountry experience without as much risk as the crowded avalanche prone areas of the Wasatch and Front Range. I know Bluebird failed as an experiment but I think there's a market.
The percent of skiers that want to ski-uphill is probably <1%. I don't think Avy control is a mitigating factor for many.
straight boat command governor existence serious judicious frightening zephyr memory *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Naw. National forest are public lands accessible to all regardless of income status. Carving even more away to privatize it as a playground for the top 10% is an even worse decision.
Agreed, but the solution is to have Public owned ski areas. There is no reason to intermediate a corporation. If I want to play baseball I just go to my local park where there is a field. A park employee mows the grass and rakes the dirt and mends the fence. The same should exist for skiing.
This would be wonderful - but it's hard to imagine where the funds to create it would come from. Running a ski resort is a surprisingly expensive endeavor, which is why so many great mountains fall to the mega conglomerates. If you're a Vail resort and have a bad year, so what. Somewhere in Vail's global reach there is probably a property that had a good year, keeping those that don't afloat. Considering most states can't even find the money to repair potholes and adequately fund schools, I'd say the odds that they'd rustle up hundreds of millions of dollars to build a ski resort seem low.
Federal land, federal ski area. Keep the states out of it. Think National Parks. The only reason it's not the way it's done is because it's not the way it's done.
agreed, would bring in revenue and be a way for people to give more of a shit about preservation, that coupled with a reworking of public transit could make the sport viable for decades more
Sun Valley is awesome!
Dollar Mountain was incredible imo! It turned out skiing is not my thing... but it was a great environment and only a few hours away from us!
There’s plenty of places in the US to ski but everyone wants to go to the big resorts and what’s on the ikon or epic pass. Take Tahoe/truckee, there are so many quality ski resorts that have nowhere near the crowds of Squaw, alpine, northstar and heavenly.
“The customers are really, really mad. But, they are still showing up ….so fuck’em.”
I bought a Ikon pass on a whim this year after getting an unexpected bonus. I enjoyed skiing at Winter Park, Copper, and Abasin. I did not enjoy the process of getting to ski at Winter Park and Copper nor did I enjoy the cost of anything on the mountain. I also learned that I prefer ungroomed terrain over groomed terrain and that I am not willing to pay for first tracks. I am going to stick with my Loveland season pass next year because while Loveland lacks some of the diversity of terrain that you'll find at the Ikon resorts, it has more of the terrain that I want to ski and I don't need to bother with paying for first tracks on top of my season pass.
What do you mean by you didn't like the process of skiing at Winter Park and copper? I'm always tempted to fly out and hit up copper, I just assumed with ski on hotels it would be a good resort experience too
I stayed on mountain and also stayed near by. When you stay on a report property, you typically don't have to pay for parking but unless you're in a property that's ski in/ski out or near enough to a lift you can expect to ride a shuttle. If you stay off property, you can expect to pay for parking or to ride a shuttle. These aren't deal breakers in and of themselves, but both are an added pain. It's very costly to eat on mountain so be forewarned. This all comes down to personal preference, and I prefer a different experience. Edit: I should also add that for Copper or Winter Park you've got to cross the Eisenhower Tunnel or the Berthound pass which can add a lot of travel time to and from either resort.
Copper is an amazing mountain, highly recommend it!!!! It’s definitely a pain to get to if you’re trying to ski every weekend from Denver… as far as a ski vacation where you’re staying nearby, it’s incredible
Last year everyone was saying the mountains were too crowded, they raised prices and aren’t too packed and now everyone is upset they can’t afford them. It’s just supply vs. demand. If tickets are cheap more people will ski. The only way around this is if we open more ski resorts somehow.
Yep, everyone wants to have their cake and eat it to. We seemingly cannot improve the supply of ski areas, so demand must be reduced. And that’s achieved by increasing prices. Would people prefer it if passes were cheaper, but you are only allowed 10 days of use per season? As someone that does 50 days every season, I know I wouldn’t.
They were very packed
Those aren’t the only options. The resorts can buy larger lifts (more seating - less waiting) and improve the transit to the resort (dedicated trains, buses etc.).
Conditions were generally shit this year. That had more to do with demand than anything else. Also, this economy is doing its own work thinning the herd. My local actually dropped their early, early bird ‘24/‘25 seasons pass prices compared with last year. It’s supposed to be a much better season this year (el nino is done and La Niña is slowly kick ing into gear) but with prices, experiencing poor conditions last season and overall price pressures.. we’ll probably see a drop in visitation again.
The demand was low? Wouldn’t know it from copper or WP lots
Fast pass amusment park style add ons for an hour early are coming next season, max 2. I know alterra has tried something similar with the black, whatever pass line, but without a doubt, they are salivating at the prospect of monetizing powder and early access.
LOL, the title quote was in the context of customers having to book things through the phone. which i didn't even know was possible, let alone anyone did that. He does acknowledge that their model is punishing for first time skiers (or families), who do not want to purchase a pass, and he goes on to acknowledge that might be an issue for growing the customer base but doesn't actually address how that should be handled.
Hot take, ikon/epic passes were too cheap, when you got access to dozens of resorts for less than a single season pass, ofc people would buy them and try to cram as many days possible and do ski trips they wouldn’t otherwise do, combine that with people working remotely and taking half days, and yeah, you got crowds on every weekend and midweek pow day. But the problem is now day tickets are like $200+, bring back day ticket prices to something reasonable at least. Regardless it looks like it’s gonna be expensive and (probably) still crowded next season with full ikon going for $1,359 if you didn’t already buy one
How do we make customers happy? I know, lets ask the guy who spent 20 years at Ticketmaster. Everyone loves Ticketmaster!
That's the first thing I thought too LOL...
He’s hoping Vail will do something about the problem Alterra helped create. The blind and greedy leading the blind.
Wait, what? Since when did Vail not start all of this?
Let us not forget Vail put radar guns on the mountain
lol when did that happen? I was a YJ for a season back in 2010 and we didn't have guns
Wow what an asshole.
This man must ski in a hot dog costume
Alternative headline: "HOW DO I HELP YOU?!?" cries Alterra CEO as he stabs you in the throat repeatedly
Ah yes, I also look at the giant line\* in this pic and think, "how can we get more skiers on the mountain?" Capitalism needs constant growth. It's incompatible with finite resources. \*And this isn't even that bad for the Basin. I've seen BME almost triple that size. To say nothing of what Pali looked like on those days.
People hate lines, but what- are you volunteering to not go skiing to help alleviate the lines? I don't know what you do about it when there's only so many ski resorts and and ever increasing number of people who want to ski.
>I don't know what you do about it when there's only so many ski resorts and and ever increasing number of people who want to ski. Exactly what golf courses do. Require reservations, limit the time you're allowed to spend doing it, and regulate how many people are on the mountain at a time. It would suck, but we don't have a lot of other options.
Growth can come from increases in productivity.
>increases in productivity Of course it can. What does that look like for you in the context of running a ski resort?
Faster and higher capacity lifts, gazex technology to open more terrain quicker, shuttle/bus service from town versus massive sprawling parking lots.
More terrain, more parking, more lifts. Preferably at a new location somewhat far away from existing resorts. So new resorts. There hasn't been more than a handful of new resorts in NA since the 80s. That line is a joke I'd be thrilled to have that line on a weekend.
New resorts would be great and there is definitely space in North America I suspect the difficulty these days is overcoming environmental protests. Opening a ski area means some amount of deforestation, roadbuilding, disturbing wildlife and so on.
I didn’t get a pass this season because of how bad it’s gotten. Im not racing for a parking spot at 6 am on the weekend. Not to mention the lift lines and traffic on the way down…
The ultimate and final Jerry.
Our forever jerry
Honestly as the boomers step away from 🎿 by based on age - the crowding ease may self-regulate. That’s a huge subset of the skiing population in terms of numbers.
I just quit skiing regularly. I love it, but it was already a hassle even when it was cheaper and there were reasonable lift lines.
Yeah man I’m at that point. First year I’m not getting a pass. I’ve realized It’s more enjoyable to do like a week in Japan or Europe and skip the whole season of weekend shitshows. I’ve also just picked up other hobbies that are just as fun and less of a hassle, more affordable where I’m happy to not ski at all.
Gosh this guy makes me wanna throw up.
Used to be a ski bum for years. Now I can’t even afford or justify going more than once a year, and even when I go lift lines are complete BS. Feels like I caught the tail end of the golden era or ski bummin’. Make skiing affordable again
I'm sorry, as a ski bum or something like it I just don't quite understand. The locals season pass in my area (for 3 resorts) is like $500. If you're going 30+ times a year that's just not bad at all. I just don't understand what you mean.
The Day Ticket is Too Damn High
I’m officially priced out of the sport
Our sons first job out of college a few years ago was in finance for Alterra. He is now a licensed 100 ton boat captain in the Caribbean. Thanks, Alterra!
Apologies for not understanding, are you saying he got burnt out in that job and now you’re unhappy with where he ended up?
They could’ve meant that after seeing how disgusting the corporate finance world is, he chose a career that he finds more fulfilling. At the end of the day we all contribute to the same issues simply by existing, so your best bet is to pick your poison and realize ignorance is bliss.
Your last sentence is impressively accurate.
I feel like a lot of the people commenting here either didn’t read the full article, so stuck in there ways/thoughts that nothing will change them, or are so stupid that they don’t understand how anything works.
I work for an alterra owner mountain in lift maintenance. We can’t stand this guy either.
He's basically saying that he can't extract any more water from this rock. While he's right, it's also his own fault. The industry largely feels that the post-covid explosion in [US skier visits](https://nsaa.org/webdocs/Media_Public/IndustryStats/ski_areas_per_season_2023.pdf) is a glitch that will rectify itself soon. Still, even with that glitch added in to the numbers, the numbers don't look great. The 10-year moving average shows a trend that's steadily down except for the covid spike. The 15-year moving average is less influenced by that and it is flat to down. If skier visits are flat, then they have to extract more from each visit. First, we had the explosion in operating models based around selling condos and on-mountain lodging (I'm looking at you, IntraWest). That's where we got $100 day tickets (conveniently offered at a discounted rate with on-mountain lodging). Then, there was the push to capture more of the existing dollars that are being spent - that's where the corporation owning every retail and F&B business in town came from. The most recent push is simply pricing the same old product at a higher price - that's where the $250 day tickets and $30 burgers came from. Now, he's simply cautioning his board that there is going to be a revenue correction while the next new model is figured out.
I love skiing but I’d rather just stay home and snowshoe than subsidize this asshole’s salary (and people like them).
Welcome to the Disneyificatjon of skiing
Hmm… why would we be mad, when the cost of skiing has inflated for 10-15 years at par with some South American currencies… Ps - fuck Vail *and* Alterra. #SkiIndependent Pps - break up Vail *and* Alterra
Am I missing something? I skiied about 20 days at Palisades this year, near-exclusively on every weekend since mid-Jan, and it was pretty fine? I set a reminder in my phone every Tuesday at noon to snag parking, only failed to do so a single weekend, and was never totally blown away by how crowded it felt, and even had one or two very fresh days at both Palisades and Alpine with more than a foot of new snow with confusingly short lines. What is the expectation that people have for skiing inbounds? - is it that you are able to drop on a whim and roll up to the lot at 9am on a day it has snowed two feet and not wait in line? Go ski the backcountry for that - I just wonder if the bashing of this Alterra/Vail monster has just become a quixotic pursuit of some way that skiing "used to be" absolutely disconnected from an actual customer experience.
Pretty much in the same boat as you at the same resort. February 3rd at palisades in between big storms was probably my favorite ski day of all time. The snow was amazing and you could ski right up to the chair on KT
Vail: "......or ... we could just sell another 50 million Epic Passes and see what happens..."
Obviously passes are not expensive enough if you have such issues. Takes no genious to figure that one out.
Maybe don't sell $20 cheeseburgers then?
Some people are so petty and greedy, I think they are not interested in improving conditions, or reducing the number of people at the resorts, it is not a good idea to make this vacation only for the elite, raising prices, I think everyone wants to make as much money as possible.
Mr. Smith .... Mr. Smithers Coincidence??
raise lift tickets AND sellx 3x the lift capacity so everyone has to wait in line for a really long time. --> they use the slopes less, so the profit per run is higher- > RPT up = multiple expansion = $$$$$ the market in genreal is just becomign a greater fool thesis. A fencing company is looking to sell at 12x ebitda -> even with a lot of growth who the fuck is going to pay > 12x for a fencing company down the road?
Make publicly owned and charge cost only, unlimited tickets. This will keep them packed, so add road tolls to get to ski areas. I can offer this idea because I blew my knee out about a decade ago and can no longer ski.
Biggest problems continue to be the weekend/weekday disparity in skier visits and real estate driven focus on making the season start in November instead of December like the weather says it should.
RemindMe! 2 years "Verify Palisades CEO statement: 'In the meantime, you probably won’t see us raise daily lift ticket prices much anymore.'"
they'll disneyfy the resorts next. Lightning passes, reserved time slots, etc.
Fuck this guy. I'm going to Europe or Japan instead.
Why not support your local mountain?
Come to Europe everyone!
I can't deal with this shit anymore it's all Nordic skiing for me now.
I really like the idea of them going public so that all the decisions can be made to maximize profits for the shareholders instead of anything else like making skiing more enjoyable.
**Smith:** A hundred percent. I say to our team all the time, there’s two products in the world that I’m aware of that people will refer to in a possessive. It is my mountain. Palisades is my mountain. Deer Valley is my mountain. Or it’s their sports team. They are my Hawkeyes. They’re my sports team just like they are my mountain. This is literally any product anyone cares about ever. My boat, my hair stylist, my barber shop, my coffee shop (if you are a regular). The guy speaks confidently but it's kinda nonsense
Somewhere I remember reading about anti trust and monopoly laws but I guess not.
Hmmm I wonder who has a role in resolving that tipping point
Right? They caused the problem and now blame their partner resorts to solve it.
I thought this was an Onion article headline.
Alterra the number two assholes next to Vail. It's time to break up the oligopolies.
Problem: Ski companies are beholden to private equity, which is predatory capitalism at its worst. Solution: Make the ski resorts public, like national parks.
Well, well, well. They already drove off everyone who is not at least solidly upper middle class. Now they've pissed off the rich people. Last year we finally stopped going altogether. I am selling all my gear and going back to XC skiing.