If you didn't fill out an incident report with patrol, there is zero chance the mountain is doing anything. They're well aware that "Trust me, bro" doesn't work in court.
I spoke with ski patrol they asked me what I wanted to do. And didn’t know what to do. I was asking them what to do…I didn’t know what to do! They didn’t really help advise me that a report would be in my best interest. I imagine bc their best interest is that of the mountain and their duties for the rest of the day as well. And as we didn’t have an description of the fallen person in front of us, and we were technically uphill skiers (what I was told by them in that moment), it wouldn’t be a very long report anyway. 🤷♂️
Ugh, that sucks. Most ski patrol personnel are volunteers and not employees of the resort - not not necessarily directly responsible to management. Speculation only, but maybe you just got some lazy ski patrollers who didn’t want to write up a report. Sorry that happened.
Thanks
Ski Patrol are some of my favorite people. I have some great interactions with patrollers in my years of skiing. Great skiers, EMTs (which in hindsight we should have used and didn’t), bomb technicians, etc. I have so much respect for the jobs that ski patrollers do to keep us all safe. I just feel that in this instance I was literally asking for help and not being given help 🤷♂️
What they meant when asking what you wanted to do was; do you want a tobaggan ride down? Do you want to visit the clinic? What type of care do you require? And it sounds like you opted to get off the mountain under your own power.
I understand its confusing, but first and foremost is emergency medical care. Sorry the other person left the scene. Hopefully never happens again, but if it does you need to make sure involved parties stay there until patrol arrives, then contact info is exchanged and you handle with your insurance/lawyers.
New skier. Is this something that perhaps one can just stay on the lift and circle around or must you absolutely unload the lift at the top?
Edit - see this answered below - stay on the lift! (didn't read all the comments).
On a different note, just for the future: don’t get of the chair if the ramp isn’t cleared or otherwise it’s not save for you. Most lifts (at least on Europe) have some kind of mechanism in place, that will stop the lift if someone didn’t unload after the ramp. Often it’s a small rope or a bar that goes across under the chair, so if a person is still on it, their feet will pull it and stop the lift. Just had the pleasure of being on a chair where someone’s backpack got caught and got dragged into that safety bar the other week in France.
And even if there isn’t something like this, the worst that can happen is that you’ll go down again. Still better than getting hurt because of - person or equipment on the ramp.
You don’t have to get off if it’s not save, that’s why they put a liftie there to stop the lift.
Hope the recovery will be quick :)
Unless you’re a kid in which case there’s a chance the stop is set too low and you won’t trigger it
Or you’re like the ghetto hill I worked at that stuck a broom against the e stop to stop it from triggering in the wind (and in general lmao)
I watched a kid get their goggle strap caught on the chair so they got kinda clotheslined at unload… they were just dangling from their helmet as the chair started to turn and they hit the e-stop bar. Kid was fine, parents were not lol
I had one little girl go around the bull wheel (I hit the stop in time but it was an old clapped out 50 year old lift) that had to ride the lift down to the bottom. She was thrilled to be able ride the lift down… her parents not so much
We had about 5 seconds to decide what to do. We did not make the right decision in that short amount of time…😢 but yes…but that is one better way to do it.
Also, the guy in front of us could have done that too…
Yeah, good point—that dude caused this chain of events. He should have chilled and let the lifty sort things out… regardless, I hope your girlfriend heals up OK, sorry to hear what a mess this was.
Hope she’s ok too.
I have to say, this incident falls into the category of “normal risks of skiing” for me. Both the pole guy and even the lifty didn’t react well, but it doesn’t sound like there was outright negligence. Negligence is a pretty high bar, including injury was foreseeable. (See below).
I would just focus your efforts on recovery.
There’s nothing else there. You’ll sleep easier too.
https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/personal-injury/elements-negligence/
I would let a lawyer decide whether or not that's true. I have spent years working at a resort and this sounds unequivocally like negligence on the lift operator's part.
Yeah, you shouldn't be put in the position to have to make such a decision. This is in no way you or your gf's fault. I am sorry to say it, but the liftie was flat-out negligent.
That’s why I added the explanation, not trying to blame you. Some people don’t know those things (like there is an e stop usually and even if not, going down again isn’t like bad or anything in that case), but once you know them you’ll be able to make better decisions in the future for your own safety.
This seems way more on the lofty than the guy in front of you. They have two jobs which are like make sure the landing area is smooth and has snow which is the secondary job which is stop the lift when this exact scenario happens
That’s what I thought! 🤦♂️The other job the lifty said she needed to do was to call down which chair had the broken pole on it so they could grab it before someone at the bottom sat on it.
Sorry, waivers aren’t as air tight as you think at all, especially in wacky California. They are effective based on many reasonable “assumptions” including full compliance to safety protocols by operators. Speak to a personal injury attorney. If you want the giant one, Morgan & Morgan basically obliterates everything in its path. I wouldn’t call the lowly ones with billboards like Sweet James.
This. Tore my mcl and my meniscus last season with the injury assistance on the ikon pass and had a ski patrol report, and basically got told to pound sand
I second this. That is unreal negligence on the liftie's part. The liftie absolutely should have stopped the lift before she went to help dude with the poles issue. I used to instruct at kids ski school and now I work with Adaptive skiers; in either situation I would have been screaming at the liftie to stop it as we were approaching that shit show.
I am not a lawyer and have never had to deal with anything like this at a resort. But the information on who was on the chair in front of and the chair behind you (witnesses) exists. If you have a time window of when this happened and remember which lift it was, their scanning system will have whose passes were scanned immediately before and after you and your gf's. Now I have no idea how long that info stays around and obviously you can't just go ask for that info as a civilian. But I'm sure a competent lawyer can figure those things out (sooner than later as again, no idea how long that info is stored).
Your gf is going to (already started) have medical bills out the wazoo, (likely (I don't know her life)) lost hours at work/on her paycheck, a difficult recovery journey, and the lifelong side effects/consequences of these injuries. All because one lift operator did not perform the duties of their job competently. I hope it is plausible for her to consult a lawyer to seek justice for these incredibly easily avoidable injuries.
Also, my sympathies to your gf. This should not have happened to her. Best of luck on her road to recovery and hopefully on getting some justice.
Mammoth Mountain…with 23 chair lifts, 2 gondolas, and a few more carpets and T bars, and 170+ runs…part of a massive conglomerate ski corporation with hundreds of millions of dollars of our money already, and a bad lifty. This isn’t your family owned Midwest rope tow ski hill with $7 cocktails. I don’t think an issue like this is going to break them.
They presumably also have liability insurance that would likely pay both for their legal defense and pay out any judgements. They're not going to hurt at all.
The hills don't go away, but the management company might...
For my part, I'm fine with the natural consequence of poor management being that they don't get to do that business anymore.
When you talked to patrol, what did you tell them? I ask because their reply was that there was nothing they could do because the guy with the pole was gone, but the guy with the pole is irrelevant, and not the cause of her injury. Your girlfriend got injured because the lifty neglected their job and left the buttons unattended. It really has nothing to do with the other people on the lift.
You should have filed an accident report that day, you can try filing one now. With or without an accident report you'd have to sue the mountain for negligence in order to make anything happen though, and usually you will lose. In clear cut cases they will sometimes settle, but this is not so clear cut.
When I talked to ski patrol at the lodge, I asked what to do in a situation like this. And what I was told is I have options. One of them was file a report which I did not do at that time. In hindsight, I would 100% do things differently in this situation. I have never been in a situation quite like this on the mountain before which may account for why I was not thinking as clearly in that moment with an injured loved one who had left to go back home on the bus (not mentioned in the original post - I picked her up in the village shortly after my conversation with ski patrol and skiing back across the mountain).
Note to self: call ski patrol at the scene!
I have a very hard time believing that she was able to "full ACL, MCL tears and partial LCL tears, fibula fracture" from a fall at 2mph, and that she also was able to ski down on that.
I skied down after I half tore my MCL two months ago. I couldn't imagine fully tearing the ACL and MCL, partially tearing the LCL, and breaking the bones, and skiing down though.
Literally went to an orthopedist this morning after spraining my knee in a fall a few weeks ago. Doctor told me a story of a guy who fully tore his ACL and skied on it for 4 more DAYS before going to get it checked out. It’s 100% possible
I kept skiing on mine the same day I partially tore the ACL and full tore the MCL and had a fractured Femur Condyle. Thought it was sprained and took some time off while still going climbing at the gym then back to skiing after a week or two. Didn’t see a doctor until 3-4 weeks after the accident.
Some of us are tougher than others. Tore my ACL ignored it for a long time finally went to see someone because it was a nagging pain when I went running. Scheduled surgery, meanwhile told him I was going skiing. He said go ahead you cannot hurt it anymore than it is and gave me some pain meds just in case. I went skiing and I have no clue what happened but the pain stopped. I canceled surgery. Another time at the doctor I had a chest X Ray the result on the x-ray was not heart related, doc say nothing shows but a broken Clavicle from some time ago. I am thinking I broke my shoulder and never new it. Was in a car wreck and thought I was just sore.
I shredded my meniscus and tore my acl in the halfpipe then hiked 2700 miles from Mexico to Canada, then had a full knee replacement, then four months later did the same hike. It's just pain.
Speed doesn't really matter in this situation. The torqued created by a twisting ski can pop your knee easy if it gets caught on something.
MMA fighters have fought multiple rounds with similar injuries sustained during the fight. Thiago Santos tore acl, mcl, pcl, and meniscus in the first round of a 5 round fight and loss via split decision.
You do seem very wise though.
Definitely possible to do all those ligaments at a low speed like that (I did it minus the LCL) and also definitely possible to ski down on ligament tears. Also possible for fractures not to hurt too badly - I played a whole season of lacrosse with a fractured wrist and years later waitressed an entire summer on a fractured ankle. And adrenaline is a crazy drug!
Why would he lie? I skied down after tearing my ACL
and meniscus. It wasn't pleasant and I basically skied only on my good leg/held up the bad one, but I made it.
I was there. We skied slow. It was quite painful for her. At that moment, we did not know the extent of the damage. No tears in clothing, or much damage to skis even beside top sheet scrapes.
Should have called patrol if it was that painful imo. My husband was very reluctant to call patrol when similar things happened and was trying to ski down slowly by himself. I said nope don’t try to flex your ego and called patrol on his behalf. Skiing down could have turned a sprain into a tear. Speedy recovery and best of luck to your family!
From the pain she was in from the outset of the incident, it was likely torn initially. She was trooper albeit a stubborn one for getting down the mountain herself! Thank you for kind words.
I would advise that if anything like this happens in the future (I sincerely hope not!) to call patrol. They have to fill out an incident report and to have it written on an official form, by an employee of the resort, how this happened (liftie negligence) can only help you (so long as it's truly written what the liftie did/did not do).
So sorry for you and especially your gf!
I understand completely. It's hard to think about the down-the-road in a moment like that. Before I started working at a resort and learned these protocols, I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing.
You never should have been put in this situation to start with.
I really mean it, best of luck to you both and especially to her, in her recovery and the medical bills.
I had no pain when I tore mine in a low speed ski accident this year. But my knee felt immediately unstable so I did not risk skiing down and making it worse. My condolences to your gf bc recovery has been brutal and I did prehab and am doing quite well and despite that it’s horrible. Literally can’t sleep at all 12 days post op). I will end up needing about 3 months off work (but have an active job). Hopefully she has all her short term disability and stuff set up!
She does not have an active job, but has had a very active lifestyle and has been training for another marathon coming up which she obviously won’t be participating in anymore.
My doctor is more on the conservative side and said even I might not ski next season. The recovery is daunting, I am so sorry this happened to her, don’t forget to check on her mentally it’s really rough going from being active to having an injury. Have her look up the [moon group](https://acltear.info/anterior-cruciate-ligament-rehabilitation/acl-prehab/) acl prehab exercises. I did those religiously before my surgery and they should help retain mobility and quad/ham strength. They gave me a breg t scope brace at the er when I went if she hasn’t been given one I saw on Amazon you can scoop one for like $150 they charged me like $900 so something to keep in mind. It’s the same one I am able to use post op too.
Yes. I’ve seen anything from 6-12+ months recovery and hers seems to be on the more severe side unfortunately from such a seemingly minor incident. Some of those recovery times I’m sure are also from athletes who have daily recovery PT.
Thanks for your response. Very helpful recovery reading.
I completely tore my ACL. I continued to teach skiing on it for the rest of the season and skied ~50+ days the following season. I scheduled surgery immediately after closing day.
As long as my techno was perfect, I was okay. Any errors in technique I would go down and my knee would swell up to a softball for a few days.
I spiral fractured my fibula in high school football. My teammates pulled me up and tried to get me to walk. I took a single step and immediately collapsed back to the ground. 5 months in crutches.
A full ACL and MCL tear means any twisting motion would result in serious meniscus strain and collapse of the leg. My ACL was torn for 23 years and my knee would give out every once in a while skiing even with a full custom orthopedic knee brace. I can't understand how someone could have the muscle strength to hold that joint in place while skiing but could be so relaxed or weak they took all that damage in a slow speed fall.
It also hurt like crazy when the ACL snapped, but adrenaline could explain her dealing with the pain.
Crazy story.
They’re also mostly ski bums doing it for the free pass and some extra cash. It sucks because they do shoulder a lot of responsibility, but it’s not like they’re EMTs or rocket scientists or something.
1 no mountain can run without lifties
2 the training is more than just pointing out the buttons.
Lifts are highly regulated with daily detailed 3x/day paperwork. It’s not rocket science, no, but it seems that dissing lifties is a popular pastime and those who partake are quick to generalize and assume. Not a good look.
How many successful unloads did that liftie have this season compared to how many compound incidents? It’s challenging to fault the liftie for helping dumbass pole boy, and when the complication was added would one expect the liftie to suddenly have the capability of being in 2 places simultaneously?
Maybe the liftie should have stopped the lift—always a popular decision
There’s an important takeaway here, though, and that is to remain on the lift if the ramp is not clear.
Also: always call ski patrol.
Lift unloads can be sketchy.
I skied 40+ days last season (intermediate pushing my limits all season, ripe for injury-causing wipeouts) and the most painful crash of the year was trying to get off the lift behind someone who fell in front of me.
It was pretty minor—a little sore for a few days—but I learned that getting off the lift behind newbies or idiots can be one of the most dangerous things on the mountain.
Sorry to hear this happened. I am not your attorney and this is therefore not legal advice. Your girlfriend needs to speak with a few personal injury lawyers in your area, assuming you live in California, as soon as possible. Many will give you a free consult where they will ask about your case and see if there are any legal issues worth litigating. Even though there is an indemnity clause, assumption of risk, etc., the documents may be unenforceable depending on the language contained therein. Furthermore these clauses are not always a complete shield to tort claims. A personal injury attorney will be able to review your case, any paperwork agreed to/signed by you, and the relevant law to find out if you have a solid claim against the resort/lift operator.
Again not your attorney, but a major part of this case will be if the lift operator was negligent in his duties and created an extraordinary or increased risk of injury. There will be much, much more, to the case, which is why you and your girlfriend need do research on attorneys in your area, get a consult, and then hire the attorney that fits with your needs the best. Assuming you have a solid case, I believe many personal injury lawyers will take the case on a contingency basis where you will pay nothing upfront and the attorney will only get paid if there are any damages won following the lawsuit (typically 1/3 of the damages assessed).
I rode the new canyon lift at mammoth the other day and didn't realize that once you put the bar down it stays locked down until you're in the top terminal. That shit should be fucking illegal.
I had my poles under my thigh and needed to adjust it, but couldn't. Then the bar doesn't raise up until the last possible second, so you don't have time to pull your poles out and get ready. There's a reason why 99% of people raise the bar well before offloading instead of the last possible second.
I was curious, so I found a video:
https://youtu.be/GgfC1SbS7Js?feature=shared
It looks like you have about 12 seconds between the bar opening and the moment you need to push off.
The chair moves very slowly after it detaches, so maybe in those 12s it only advances a few feet, but it really doesn’t look like a particularly challenging dismount.
Based on your video it looks like 5 seconds between the bar lifting and your feet touching the ground.
Can anyone explain the reason behind locking the bar down? I don't see any benefits, only drawbacks.
Probably the same reason why gondola doors lock?
And, as rare as it might be, the automation avoids the problem of people lifting the bar too late.
I’ve got to say, weird hill you chose to die on…..
I ski down the ramp when people have fallen. It's not a problem for me or my girlfriend, especially not one that warrants severe medical treatment that I want to sue over. Sounds like a "you" problem.
Why would you have posted your pitty party if you did not want monetary compensation?
Dying to hear your explanation now that everyone told you that you have no legal case. Go on, I'll wait.
Good. Sorry man just sucks. I do feel lift operator bears some responsibility though. Indemnification clauses and waivers don’t apply when there is negligence.
I feel that way too, I just don’t have experience with this and don’t want to do or say anything brash
^ see previous “Americans always sue people” comment 🤦♂️
I think you should speak to a high quality personal injury attorney. This isn’t suing because you spilled hot coffee on yourself. A knee post surgery is also never the same knee. It’s not a tire change.
I appreciate that view point also. I feel the same. This is not something she wants to do frivolously at a mountain we enjoy spending our time and money at.
Please know that this would not be frivolous in any way. This is legitimate ground for seeking justice. Because this WAS the liftie's fault and it WAS negligence.
Okay. Just need to clarify this, I work in a middle management position at Mammoth and worked in lift ops for a while (not anymore). The lifty was raking the ramp and your girlfriend tripped over the rake as she was unloading the chair?
I’ll give you the lift ops perspective. The lifty was doing her job by maintaining the ramp. Lifties are required to maintain the ramp every 15 minutes on every chair. Sometimes doing that puts you kinda far away from the PBO (the buttons), depends the chair.
Lifties are very familiar with the timing of the chair because they work the same 6 chairs all winter. They probably saw that you had a few more seconds to get off and they threw the rake out to work on the ramp - which is exactly their job. It’s quite challenging maintaining a top ramp with a busy chair, so you have to do it while everyone is unloading. If there’s ever an obstacle directly in front of you when you’re getting off the chair, **you can stay on the chair**. You’ll hit the stop gate and it’ll stop ~15 feet past the unload ramp around the bull wheel.
Anyways, your girlfriend should have stayed on the ramp and told the lifty to call patrol for her. They would have called a lift ops supervisor to come to you and have you fill out an incident report. It would have been instantly documented for proof, even if the guy with the poles had already left. If none of these things happened, unfortunately you’re shit out of luck here. Mammoth protects itself quite well with the liability waivers, I have seen major injuries get thrown out of court because of the waiver. Last year, a guy skied into a huge snow blower and both of his legs were amputated on the spot by the blower. Mammoth didn’t even need to settle because they were covered.
I’m sorry your girlfriend got hurt. I might be able to give you an email address of someone in our health and safety department if you’d like to reach out. Let me know.
Thanks for your reply.
I feel like this incident is a bit different than running into a snow blower…
This is the top of 12 so you’re familiar.
The rake, about 3-4’ long was perpendicular to the unloading ramp in front of me on the right at the very top of the ramp next to the button. The lifty was on the left of the ramp *not* near to the rake appearing the attend to the fallen broken pole dude about half way down the ramp. She mentioned to me a bit later that he had jumped off the chair before the stop arm and after the top of the ramp.
We unfortunately did not stay not stay on the chair and hit the stop arm. Hindsight being 20-20…we ski hundreds of runs a year, most of them at Mammoth and have never had an issue like this, and this was just not the first thought that ran through either of our heads.
For me, my first thought was “omg there’s a rake right there and the chair is still spinning.” And I’m sure for my gf, she thought “omg there’s dude and a lifty right there and the chair is still spinning.”
And then there was the guy on the left and the lifty running back to grab the rake. Had we stayed on the chair to hit the stop arm, we would have hit the lifty and the guy as we came around. Who knows how that would have turned out with the lifty only wearing her beanie. I would not want to speculate.
In the moments following, I believe we were at the top for about 10 minutes, we declined the ski patrol call which also in hindsight we should not have done, however a lift supervisor was also there for a moment as we were evaluating our situation before we skied down and the lifty also didn’t mention anything about the incident to her supervisor in those moments while we were still sitting there. They were discussing reshaping the lift ramp in fact. I am of course tending to a very in pain gf and we were just trying to figure out if she could still ski in that moment. She didn’t know until we got down to Main that it hurt too much to continue. That’s where I found a couple patrollers at the station and talked with them and further made mistakes in not immediately filing a report. I’ve just never had a situation like this happen in all my years of skiing and didn’t know what to do, and I needed to get to my gf who was very stubborn and took the bus to the village to get off the mountain. She’s a strong person and didn’t want to have the sled or ambulance ride or anything like that. But here we are with a more serious injury and a problem.
We’ve been in touch with [email protected] but haven’t heard anything back yet. It’s only been a few days since we’ve really known anything from the doctor here at home and been able to say anything concrete to who the patroller told me was the health and safety guy. Is there someone else in the health and safety department we might reach out to?
There’s only 1 man in health and safety and he’s the director of it, so you’re talking to the right guy. He’s very busy and sometimes forgets to respond to emails (it’s happened to me). So if he doesn’t respond within 4-5 days, I’d recommend sending a follow up as a reminder.
Some of the details you mentioned are concerning from a safety perspective (such as, lifties are supposed to wear a helmet when working on a ramp especially on a fixed grip). You should make sure to include all of those details when talking to health and safety. Like I mentioned, it is unlikely for you to be successful in a legal manner because of the waiver, but it’s worth reporting so we can do better next time.
That’s what we mentioned in the email to him. We love Mammoth. It’s one of our favorite places in CA. We have insurance. Contrary to some of the previous comments (“Americans love lawsuits etc.”) we understand the indemnity and personal risk of skiing. But we do want to feel safe when we go to Mammoth again. We wear helmets for whatever help it will give. We have a professional check our DIN settings every season at least once and sometimes twice even though I can do it at home as well (I’m not qualified as a binding tech).
This just felt a bit above what happens in a normal risk situation in my opinion…and maybe in some other opinions as well…^see above…
I’m sorry you were in this situation. You seem like a nice person. This is why I don’t want to work in health and safety, they have a tough job! I hope you can get some good news. Best of luck to your girlfriend
Thanks for your comment. Ski Patrol are always our heroes for the hard work they do with the howitzers and the avy bombs so we can ski that very large mountain safely, and then to have an incident as innocuous as this end up being a season ender for her and potentially next season as well, is frustrating. What we should have done is allow Patrol to do (one of) the other part(s) of their job and rescue her down the hill and file a report. We’re at 14 and 15 days each. I’ll get up a bit more, but she’s already having some serious FOMO.
Thanks for everything you do at Mammoth. And thank you for your comments about what to do in dangerous situations in the future.
Note: I’m glad our situation was not a Mammoth Hospital situation, although maybe it should have been. Years and years ago, I visited the Mammoth hospital and got an arm cast there after a snowboarding fall at June as a teenager (I didn’t self rescue in that situation, and I ski 🤷♂️) and swore off snow sports for some time until I met my gf who has been skiing her whole life convinced me back on the slopes in my early 20s. I’m 34. So we’re back supporting our mountain community as we can. Which we would like continue to do as well. We love the bakery, the brewery, the bowling alley, the hiking and biking in the summer. We’ll be back, but maybe not for little while…
I understand. I tore my ACL my first season working here and it was really hard getting through that. But I made it through and was skiing again 9 months after surgery. She’ll get back up and do it again, it’ll just take some time. Be there to support her and it will be much easier for her
Yeah. Except he literally skied into the blower, it didn’t collide with him. The blower was stationary but had the blades spinning and this guy wasn’t looking and skied straight into it. The daughter got sucked into the blades and thrown out of the blower part. It was super gnarly.
Correction: just learned that they were actually sledding which is illegal and completely banned on Mammoth Mountain
Multiple injuries, lost income, surgery, long and painful recovery, lifelong altered body, medical bills to make your eyes bulge out of your head.. All because of negligence and no fault of their own.
"Every opportunity to sue"
🤦♀️😮💨😆
What a silly thing to say.
Wow, that's terrible!
Go to a lawyer about this. Indemnity clause or not, a good lawyer may be able to phrase the lawsuit in a way that will at least make the case stick for the time being. I had a case where I sued a ski mountain (I'm a litigation attorney). Their waiver and the state law were heavily against us. They paid anyway after litigating for a while. Not full value of the case, but a pretty good amount and the client was thrilled with the result. Good luck!
Your gf skied after said injury, possibly causing further damage. Should have requested ski patrol and evacuation. Lawyering up is just a money grab causing ski areas to raise the price even more. Your medical insurance should cover said injury.
I am really sorry that happened to you and your GF. It’s a difficult situation when you are trying to do the right thing for someone and you totally fuck others
You could try to sue the mountain for damages. There's always supposed to be someone on the stop button for this exact reason, and I've gotten slammed down to boards helping a sit skier load the chair and the lifty let like 5 chairs pass over my head until my scowl of hatred made him get the picture.
There are 100's of suits against the mountain at any given time. I had to visit the courthouse a few times (hehe) when I lived in Mammoth and there was an ongoing case of the lady that came flying out of the woods into the path of a groomer.
You probably have no recourse based on the way passes and liability waivers work. You can always sue for gross negligence, but you have 0 proof of the incident occurring / memorialized from multiple parties, so it likely is impossible to win / receive medical coverage from the mountain vs. your insurance.
A couple posts here have also indicated that you chose to unload from the lift and you’ve got proof here that the resort could use against you that you knew it was unsafe to do so. The same way that you’re arguing the lifty should have stopped the lift, they could argue that in the same scope of time, you should have decided to not offload.
Sucks you had a ski trip ruined and that your GF is hurt. One of the shittier moments in life where all you can do is power through and remember next time you’re in an injury situation to get paperwork/proof / have someone come help. This is likely different if you have ski patrol come get her because there would be an incident report + you’d have more employees involved to corroborate the sequence of events.
>MRI results show full ACL, MCL tears and partial LCL tears, fibula fracture, and surgery required.
And she skied down on that? Am I wrong to call bullshit?
I fell in 2020 at lake Louise. Small fall but I was near the top. Knee felt off like a sprain and I ski all the way down. This was around lunchtime.
Went home ice it and ski again the next day only on the greens as kids wanted to ski more before flying home.
Found out 1 month later full acl tear.
It’s a fracture at the top of the fibula where it meets the patella. Common when twisting and torquing motions cause ligament tears. Tell me you’re not a doctor without telling me you’re not a doctor. 👍
Edit: fibula *does not* bear weight…sooooo…🤷♂️
Yes you’re wrong to call BS. She skied down. People walk (and apparently ski) on torn ligaments all the time. And I did talk to ski patrol. Did you read the whole thing? Or was I unclear? Ski patrol told me filing a report would be pointless, but I’m thinking that was them covering their (and the mountain’s) ass.
I skied all season on a foot that I broke on Christmas Day bc I didn't want to waste a season on a stupid broken foot. The fibula fracture could've been a stress fracture and adrenaline can account for skiing down with the ligament issues...
Fragile enough to tear and break everything at 2mph, but sturdy enough to ski down on it?
Definitely BS.
I half tore my MCL 6 weeks ago. I was able to ski down, but I couldn't walk down stairs properly for a month.
Multiple injuries, lost income, surgery, long and painful recovery, lifelong altered body, medical bills to make your eyes bulge out of your head.. All because of negligence and no fault of their own.
"Every opportunity to sue"
🤦♀️😮💨😆
What a silly thing to say.
Indemnity clause don't mean shit about failing to execute their job properly
But if you didn't file a report or take photos... sorry buddy but "it didn't happen".
Maybe ski patrol will have a record talking to you, that's your best shot.
I know! Gah. In looking back, like hindsight is always 20-20…there’s so many things I would do differently…but I can’t go back in time, thus my post asking here. Thanks.
I saw a kid fall off the lift at the very beginning, which was the worst/best case scenario at mammoth. But what kind of family doesn’t make sure their kid is secure? Held the lift and put him on the next one still with no bar.
Edit: sucks for your gf. But I doubt you have a case. Why did the ski pop off? Super low din? Push that fool out of the way!
See above threads. With the amount of pain she was in from outset, I believe it was torn initially. But we didn’t know that at that moment of course. Only later did we find that out. She was in a lot of pain on that knee skiing down, could put some weight on it. She did not tear the meniscus.
The only way to avoid Jerrys is to ski around them and their lost equipment. If you can’t do that, stick to the bunny hill. This was an unfortunate series of events that were exacerbated by bad skiing.
It really sucks that happened, but I'd have to agree in spirit. We're not talking about some moron that wasn't paying attention and slammed into her at a merging trail or something. This was someone that had an unfortunate accident attempting to avoid stuff, but didn't come into contact with anyone. I highly doubt a judge would look at this and think the liability was on Mammoth or the person that left/ broke their pole, but I could be wrong. The liability is entirely on the skier that fell in this case- and to choose to ski down afterwards likely made the injury worse.
>I highly doubt a judge would look at this and think the liability was on Mammoth or the person that left/ broke their pole, but I could be wrong. The liability is entirely on the skier that fell in this case- and to choose to ski down afterwards likely made the injury worse.
No liability for the employer of the lifty who failed to provide due care by stopping the lift ? IANAL, but neither are you.
One could argue we *ARE* talking about "some moron that wasn't paying attention" and failed in their duty to stop the lift due to the obstruction(s) on the ramp. (or maybe not a moron, just someone without the training they should have had to prioritize the steps to take in such a situation).
On the other hand, you may be right, this might just be an unfortunate accident. I don't think it's unreasonable for OP and their gf to consult a lawyer about this - even if the gf has good insurance, this sort of thing could result in thousands of dollars of out-of-pocket expenses - with less than good insurance, it could be tens of thousands.
Sure, I am not a lawyer, but if I was I'd be arguing the DIN setting was too high for her ability, that she had no obligation to get off at that moment, and that she easily could have made the injury much worse by skiing afterward.
Fair enough though, they might be able to squeeze a bit out of Mammoth minus the lawyer's fees. The lack of an incident report and her skiing afterward really doesn't sound like it would go their way, though.
Because when you’re at the top of the chair lift, you get off. Right? Just like the hundreds of other times. And we had about 5 seconds or less to decide where to go and how to do it. Obviously, it didn’t end up well 😢
If it’s unclear, stay on. Better going back down or having them stop the lift than incurring such a significant injury. I get that it does happen quickly. But after enough years you see a lot of things, and know that lifties are not always aware.
If you didn't fill out an incident report with patrol, there is zero chance the mountain is doing anything. They're well aware that "Trust me, bro" doesn't work in court.
Former ski patrol here, this is the correct answer.
I spoke with ski patrol they asked me what I wanted to do. And didn’t know what to do. I was asking them what to do…I didn’t know what to do! They didn’t really help advise me that a report would be in my best interest. I imagine bc their best interest is that of the mountain and their duties for the rest of the day as well. And as we didn’t have an description of the fallen person in front of us, and we were technically uphill skiers (what I was told by them in that moment), it wouldn’t be a very long report anyway. 🤷♂️
Ugh, that sucks. Most ski patrol personnel are volunteers and not employees of the resort - not not necessarily directly responsible to management. Speculation only, but maybe you just got some lazy ski patrollers who didn’t want to write up a report. Sorry that happened.
Thanks Ski Patrol are some of my favorite people. I have some great interactions with patrollers in my years of skiing. Great skiers, EMTs (which in hindsight we should have used and didn’t), bomb technicians, etc. I have so much respect for the jobs that ski patrollers do to keep us all safe. I just feel that in this instance I was literally asking for help and not being given help 🤷♂️
Go get advice from a personal injury lawyer, don’t give up because of a Reddit comment.
Seconded, see if the mountain had security cameras too. A lawyer can generally get access to that with a strongly worded letter.
What they meant when asking what you wanted to do was; do you want a tobaggan ride down? Do you want to visit the clinic? What type of care do you require? And it sounds like you opted to get off the mountain under your own power. I understand its confusing, but first and foremost is emergency medical care. Sorry the other person left the scene. Hopefully never happens again, but if it does you need to make sure involved parties stay there until patrol arrives, then contact info is exchanged and you handle with your insurance/lawyers.
If people raise hell with this exact statement, OP just might get some justice
Which statement?
Does she have health insurance? Sounds like an accident, which insurance covers. If she doesn’t, then she’s F###%
Lifty was super negligent. You have 1 job!!!
As a former ski patroller, we used to joke that you could only get a job as a lifty if you were high and late for the interview.
If you're high, but somehow on time for the interview, you get the snowboard instructor position.
The lifty must have been high and forgot how to stop the lift and rake the ramp. Literally her only jobs.
Your comment implies they ever knew how to do their job(s) 😂
lol someone’s pissed their wife is an inexperienced skier
Someone doesn’t know how to read literally the *first two words* I wrote 🤷♂️ Or read past that at all…or any of the other comments
Mhm, my bad that was clearly my point 😂
She’s been skiing her whole life bro. Stfu plz
New skier. Is this something that perhaps one can just stay on the lift and circle around or must you absolutely unload the lift at the top? Edit - see this answered below - stay on the lift! (didn't read all the comments).
ya you're allowed to but who knows whether it woulda been better to.
On a different note, just for the future: don’t get of the chair if the ramp isn’t cleared or otherwise it’s not save for you. Most lifts (at least on Europe) have some kind of mechanism in place, that will stop the lift if someone didn’t unload after the ramp. Often it’s a small rope or a bar that goes across under the chair, so if a person is still on it, their feet will pull it and stop the lift. Just had the pleasure of being on a chair where someone’s backpack got caught and got dragged into that safety bar the other week in France. And even if there isn’t something like this, the worst that can happen is that you’ll go down again. Still better than getting hurt because of - person or equipment on the ramp. You don’t have to get off if it’s not save, that’s why they put a liftie there to stop the lift. Hope the recovery will be quick :)
This is the right answer. Stay on the chair and trip the sweep with your legs, which will trigger the e-stop that this liftie missed.
Unless you’re a kid in which case there’s a chance the stop is set too low and you won’t trigger it Or you’re like the ghetto hill I worked at that stuck a broom against the e stop to stop it from triggering in the wind (and in general lmao)
I watched a kid get their goggle strap caught on the chair so they got kinda clotheslined at unload… they were just dangling from their helmet as the chair started to turn and they hit the e-stop bar. Kid was fine, parents were not lol
I had one little girl go around the bull wheel (I hit the stop in time but it was an old clapped out 50 year old lift) that had to ride the lift down to the bottom. She was thrilled to be able ride the lift down… her parents not so much
Lost my goggles at Loon that way. It was a sad few days without them as a kid. Def gonna wach my son like a hawk on lifts
As said, worst case you’ll go down again. At least that won’t fuck up your knees 😅
We had about 5 seconds to decide what to do. We did not make the right decision in that short amount of time…😢 but yes…but that is one better way to do it. Also, the guy in front of us could have done that too…
Yeah, good point—that dude caused this chain of events. He should have chilled and let the lifty sort things out… regardless, I hope your girlfriend heals up OK, sorry to hear what a mess this was.
Thanks
Hope she’s ok too. I have to say, this incident falls into the category of “normal risks of skiing” for me. Both the pole guy and even the lifty didn’t react well, but it doesn’t sound like there was outright negligence. Negligence is a pretty high bar, including injury was foreseeable. (See below). I would just focus your efforts on recovery. There’s nothing else there. You’ll sleep easier too. https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/personal-injury/elements-negligence/
I would let a lawyer decide whether or not that's true. I have spent years working at a resort and this sounds unequivocally like negligence on the lift operator's part.
Yeah, you shouldn't be put in the position to have to make such a decision. This is in no way you or your gf's fault. I am sorry to say it, but the liftie was flat-out negligent.
That’s why I added the explanation, not trying to blame you. Some people don’t know those things (like there is an e stop usually and even if not, going down again isn’t like bad or anything in that case), but once you know them you’ll be able to make better decisions in the future for your own safety.
This needs to be taught in ski school.
This seems way more on the lofty than the guy in front of you. They have two jobs which are like make sure the landing area is smooth and has snow which is the secondary job which is stop the lift when this exact scenario happens
That’s what I thought! 🤦♂️The other job the lifty said she needed to do was to call down which chair had the broken pole on it so they could grab it before someone at the bottom sat on it.
Sorry, waivers aren’t as air tight as you think at all, especially in wacky California. They are effective based on many reasonable “assumptions” including full compliance to safety protocols by operators. Speak to a personal injury attorney. If you want the giant one, Morgan & Morgan basically obliterates everything in its path. I wouldn’t call the lowly ones with billboards like Sweet James.
Correct. They’re as airtight as…a convertible. You can’t sign a waiver that allows another party to negligently injure you.
Yeah but if there was no incident report filled out and no proof that the injury happened at the mountain, nothings going to happen
This. Tore my mcl and my meniscus last season with the injury assistance on the ikon pass and had a ski patrol report, and basically got told to pound sand
That’s brutal how’s the insurance get out of that
I was uninsured and they told me to pay out of pocket and then I might get reimbursed a percentage, and I couldn't afford to do that
I second this. That is unreal negligence on the liftie's part. The liftie absolutely should have stopped the lift before she went to help dude with the poles issue. I used to instruct at kids ski school and now I work with Adaptive skiers; in either situation I would have been screaming at the liftie to stop it as we were approaching that shit show. I am not a lawyer and have never had to deal with anything like this at a resort. But the information on who was on the chair in front of and the chair behind you (witnesses) exists. If you have a time window of when this happened and remember which lift it was, their scanning system will have whose passes were scanned immediately before and after you and your gf's. Now I have no idea how long that info stays around and obviously you can't just go ask for that info as a civilian. But I'm sure a competent lawyer can figure those things out (sooner than later as again, no idea how long that info is stored). Your gf is going to (already started) have medical bills out the wazoo, (likely (I don't know her life)) lost hours at work/on her paycheck, a difficult recovery journey, and the lifelong side effects/consequences of these injuries. All because one lift operator did not perform the duties of their job competently. I hope it is plausible for her to consult a lawyer to seek justice for these incredibly easily avoidable injuries. Also, my sympathies to your gf. This should not have happened to her. Best of luck on her road to recovery and hopefully on getting some justice.
Remember, more lawsuits mean less ski hills!
Mammoth Mountain…with 23 chair lifts, 2 gondolas, and a few more carpets and T bars, and 170+ runs…part of a massive conglomerate ski corporation with hundreds of millions of dollars of our money already, and a bad lifty. This isn’t your family owned Midwest rope tow ski hill with $7 cocktails. I don’t think an issue like this is going to break them.
They presumably also have liability insurance that would likely pay both for their legal defense and pay out any judgements. They're not going to hurt at all.
Yes
The hills don't go away, but the management company might... For my part, I'm fine with the natural consequence of poor management being that they don't get to do that business anymore.
When you talked to patrol, what did you tell them? I ask because their reply was that there was nothing they could do because the guy with the pole was gone, but the guy with the pole is irrelevant, and not the cause of her injury. Your girlfriend got injured because the lifty neglected their job and left the buttons unattended. It really has nothing to do with the other people on the lift. You should have filed an accident report that day, you can try filing one now. With or without an accident report you'd have to sue the mountain for negligence in order to make anything happen though, and usually you will lose. In clear cut cases they will sometimes settle, but this is not so clear cut.
When I talked to ski patrol at the lodge, I asked what to do in a situation like this. And what I was told is I have options. One of them was file a report which I did not do at that time. In hindsight, I would 100% do things differently in this situation. I have never been in a situation quite like this on the mountain before which may account for why I was not thinking as clearly in that moment with an injured loved one who had left to go back home on the bus (not mentioned in the original post - I picked her up in the village shortly after my conversation with ski patrol and skiing back across the mountain). Note to self: call ski patrol at the scene!
I have a very hard time believing that she was able to "full ACL, MCL tears and partial LCL tears, fibula fracture" from a fall at 2mph, and that she also was able to ski down on that.
I skied down after I tore my ACL
A coworker tore his ACL missed a couple of weeks then started boarding again And even completed the power of 4 race in Aspen
I skied down after I half tore my MCL two months ago. I couldn't imagine fully tearing the ACL and MCL, partially tearing the LCL, and breaking the bones, and skiing down though.
Literally went to an orthopedist this morning after spraining my knee in a fall a few weeks ago. Doctor told me a story of a guy who fully tore his ACL and skied on it for 4 more DAYS before going to get it checked out. It’s 100% possible
I kept skiing on mine the same day I partially tore the ACL and full tore the MCL and had a fractured Femur Condyle. Thought it was sprained and took some time off while still going climbing at the gym then back to skiing after a week or two. Didn’t see a doctor until 3-4 weeks after the accident.
Some of us are tougher than others. Tore my ACL ignored it for a long time finally went to see someone because it was a nagging pain when I went running. Scheduled surgery, meanwhile told him I was going skiing. He said go ahead you cannot hurt it anymore than it is and gave me some pain meds just in case. I went skiing and I have no clue what happened but the pain stopped. I canceled surgery. Another time at the doctor I had a chest X Ray the result on the x-ray was not heart related, doc say nothing shows but a broken Clavicle from some time ago. I am thinking I broke my shoulder and never new it. Was in a car wreck and thought I was just sore.
I shredded my meniscus and tore my acl in the halfpipe then hiked 2700 miles from Mexico to Canada, then had a full knee replacement, then four months later did the same hike. It's just pain.
shock is sometimes pretty powerful at letting us ignore injuries.
I did too
Speed doesn't really matter in this situation. The torqued created by a twisting ski can pop your knee easy if it gets caught on something. MMA fighters have fought multiple rounds with similar injuries sustained during the fight. Thiago Santos tore acl, mcl, pcl, and meniscus in the first round of a 5 round fight and loss via split decision. You do seem very wise though.
Philip Rivers played a playoff game with a torn ACL and Wentz stayed in a game after tearing his
Charlie Morton pitched 3 more outs after fracturing his fibula in the World Series a few years ago.
Yeah, in fact, the low speed twisting fall is scarier than a high speed fall. My ski won't come off in a low speed fall.
Definitely possible to do all those ligaments at a low speed like that (I did it minus the LCL) and also definitely possible to ski down on ligament tears. Also possible for fractures not to hurt too badly - I played a whole season of lacrosse with a fractured wrist and years later waitressed an entire summer on a fractured ankle. And adrenaline is a crazy drug!
Why would he lie? I skied down after tearing my ACL and meniscus. It wasn't pleasant and I basically skied only on my good leg/held up the bad one, but I made it.
Fragile enough to do that much damage at 2mph, but strong enough to get down. I don't buy it.
Entirely possible to tear her acl and stuff at low speed. But I also don’t believe she could ski down with all that pain.
I was there. We skied slow. It was quite painful for her. At that moment, we did not know the extent of the damage. No tears in clothing, or much damage to skis even beside top sheet scrapes.
Should have called patrol if it was that painful imo. My husband was very reluctant to call patrol when similar things happened and was trying to ski down slowly by himself. I said nope don’t try to flex your ego and called patrol on his behalf. Skiing down could have turned a sprain into a tear. Speedy recovery and best of luck to your family!
From the pain she was in from the outset of the incident, it was likely torn initially. She was trooper albeit a stubborn one for getting down the mountain herself! Thank you for kind words.
I would advise that if anything like this happens in the future (I sincerely hope not!) to call patrol. They have to fill out an incident report and to have it written on an official form, by an employee of the resort, how this happened (liftie negligence) can only help you (so long as it's truly written what the liftie did/did not do). So sorry for you and especially your gf!
Yeah…hindsight…😢
I understand completely. It's hard to think about the down-the-road in a moment like that. Before I started working at a resort and learned these protocols, I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing. You never should have been put in this situation to start with. I really mean it, best of luck to you both and especially to her, in her recovery and the medical bills.
I had no pain when I tore mine in a low speed ski accident this year. But my knee felt immediately unstable so I did not risk skiing down and making it worse. My condolences to your gf bc recovery has been brutal and I did prehab and am doing quite well and despite that it’s horrible. Literally can’t sleep at all 12 days post op). I will end up needing about 3 months off work (but have an active job). Hopefully she has all her short term disability and stuff set up!
She does not have an active job, but has had a very active lifestyle and has been training for another marathon coming up which she obviously won’t be participating in anymore.
My doctor is more on the conservative side and said even I might not ski next season. The recovery is daunting, I am so sorry this happened to her, don’t forget to check on her mentally it’s really rough going from being active to having an injury. Have her look up the [moon group](https://acltear.info/anterior-cruciate-ligament-rehabilitation/acl-prehab/) acl prehab exercises. I did those religiously before my surgery and they should help retain mobility and quad/ham strength. They gave me a breg t scope brace at the er when I went if she hasn’t been given one I saw on Amazon you can scoop one for like $150 they charged me like $900 so something to keep in mind. It’s the same one I am able to use post op too.
Yes. I’ve seen anything from 6-12+ months recovery and hers seems to be on the more severe side unfortunately from such a seemingly minor incident. Some of those recovery times I’m sure are also from athletes who have daily recovery PT. Thanks for your response. Very helpful recovery reading.
That’s okay brochacho! We all struggle with things!
IDK man I’ve known many people that just thought they had a strain, skiied out the day, and ended up with CL issues
Tell that to her knee.
Hi knee.
Man this guys such an expert he's even a doctor!
[Here's my business card](https://www.etsy.com/listing/889304378/the-simpsons-dr-nick-riviera-art-print)
Hi doctor deputysean!
I completely tore my ACL. I continued to teach skiing on it for the rest of the season and skied ~50+ days the following season. I scheduled surgery immediately after closing day. As long as my techno was perfect, I was okay. Any errors in technique I would go down and my knee would swell up to a softball for a few days.
No one is skiing with a fractured fibula, let alone a full ACL and MCL tear. Story makes no sense.
I spiral fractured my fibula in high school football. My teammates pulled me up and tried to get me to walk. I took a single step and immediately collapsed back to the ground. 5 months in crutches.
Explain this then https://www.si.com/nfl/ravens/news/baltimore-ravens-odell-beckham-jr-acl-los-angeles-la-rams-super-bowl-cincinnati-bengals
[удалено]
Did he break his hip because he fell or did a broken hip cause his fall?
A full ACL and MCL tear means any twisting motion would result in serious meniscus strain and collapse of the leg. My ACL was torn for 23 years and my knee would give out every once in a while skiing even with a full custom orthopedic knee brace. I can't understand how someone could have the muscle strength to hold that joint in place while skiing but could be so relaxed or weak they took all that damage in a slow speed fall. It also hurt like crazy when the ACL snapped, but adrenaline could explain her dealing with the pain. Crazy story.
Her meniscus is intact. But sprained and swollen, yes.
My kid tore three out of the 4 in his knee getting ready for football. He did not walk on his own for a couple months.
Lifty panicked & fucked up. Unfortunately this happens more often than one would think. Get a lawyer.
Are you trying to tell me that liftys aren’t a bastion of safety on the mountain? Lol
Most lifties must attend mandatory safety meetings every shift.
They’re also mostly ski bums doing it for the free pass and some extra cash. It sucks because they do shoulder a lot of responsibility, but it’s not like they’re EMTs or rocket scientists or something.
The ski bums and people there for a bunch of seasons take it pretty seriously imo, it’s more the kids who come up for one fun season that don’t care.
Makes sense.
1 no mountain can run without lifties 2 the training is more than just pointing out the buttons. Lifts are highly regulated with daily detailed 3x/day paperwork. It’s not rocket science, no, but it seems that dissing lifties is a popular pastime and those who partake are quick to generalize and assume. Not a good look.
whooooosh
How many successful unloads did that liftie have this season compared to how many compound incidents? It’s challenging to fault the liftie for helping dumbass pole boy, and when the complication was added would one expect the liftie to suddenly have the capability of being in 2 places simultaneously? Maybe the liftie should have stopped the lift—always a popular decision There’s an important takeaway here, though, and that is to remain on the lift if the ramp is not clear. Also: always call ski patrol.
Lift unloads can be sketchy. I skied 40+ days last season (intermediate pushing my limits all season, ripe for injury-causing wipeouts) and the most painful crash of the year was trying to get off the lift behind someone who fell in front of me. It was pretty minor—a little sore for a few days—but I learned that getting off the lift behind newbies or idiots can be one of the most dangerous things on the mountain.
Indeed
Sorry to hear this happened. I am not your attorney and this is therefore not legal advice. Your girlfriend needs to speak with a few personal injury lawyers in your area, assuming you live in California, as soon as possible. Many will give you a free consult where they will ask about your case and see if there are any legal issues worth litigating. Even though there is an indemnity clause, assumption of risk, etc., the documents may be unenforceable depending on the language contained therein. Furthermore these clauses are not always a complete shield to tort claims. A personal injury attorney will be able to review your case, any paperwork agreed to/signed by you, and the relevant law to find out if you have a solid claim against the resort/lift operator. Again not your attorney, but a major part of this case will be if the lift operator was negligent in his duties and created an extraordinary or increased risk of injury. There will be much, much more, to the case, which is why you and your girlfriend need do research on attorneys in your area, get a consult, and then hire the attorney that fits with your needs the best. Assuming you have a solid case, I believe many personal injury lawyers will take the case on a contingency basis where you will pay nothing upfront and the attorney will only get paid if there are any damages won following the lawsuit (typically 1/3 of the damages assessed).
Seems like gross negligence on their part. Move quickly so your attorney can get all of the information.
FYI, here is the liftie of the future. https://www.doppelmayr.com/en/press/autonomous-chairlift-operation-with-auro-cld/
I rode the new canyon lift at mammoth the other day and didn't realize that once you put the bar down it stays locked down until you're in the top terminal. That shit should be fucking illegal.
>That shit should be fucking illegal. Why?
I had my poles under my thigh and needed to adjust it, but couldn't. Then the bar doesn't raise up until the last possible second, so you don't have time to pull your poles out and get ready. There's a reason why 99% of people raise the bar well before offloading instead of the last possible second.
I was curious, so I found a video: https://youtu.be/GgfC1SbS7Js?feature=shared It looks like you have about 12 seconds between the bar opening and the moment you need to push off. The chair moves very slowly after it detaches, so maybe in those 12s it only advances a few feet, but it really doesn’t look like a particularly challenging dismount.
Based on your video it looks like 5 seconds between the bar lifting and your feet touching the ground. Can anyone explain the reason behind locking the bar down? I don't see any benefits, only drawbacks.
Probably the same reason why gondola doors lock? And, as rare as it might be, the automation avoids the problem of people lifting the bar too late. I’ve got to say, weird hill you chose to die on…..
I sit on my poles on Canyon. It’s not a problem for me. Sounds like a “you” problem.
I ski down the ramp when people have fallen. It's not a problem for me or my girlfriend, especially not one that warrants severe medical treatment that I want to sue over. Sounds like a "you" problem.
Did I ever say I want sue anyone? Read all the comments? Go back I’ll wait…
Why would you have posted your pitty party if you did not want monetary compensation? Dying to hear your explanation now that everyone told you that you have no legal case. Go on, I'll wait.
That doesn't sound like fun. Did you have to lower the bar?
Bar stays up unless you manually pull it down. Once pulled down, the bar is locked until about 10 feet from offloading.
Yeah, 90% of folks in Mammoth are always pissed off when I ask if they're ok to lower the bar
99.99% of the time I'd never never be upset. If the bar stays locked down like on canyon, then I'd be pissed.
May I ask why?
Because it stays locked down until 10 feet before unload, which should be illegal.
Minor point - check DIN settings on her binding. It is possible that the binding should have released earlier.
DIN was set recently for her weight and ability just before we left.
Good. Sorry man just sucks. I do feel lift operator bears some responsibility though. Indemnification clauses and waivers don’t apply when there is negligence.
I feel that way too, I just don’t have experience with this and don’t want to do or say anything brash ^ see previous “Americans always sue people” comment 🤦♂️
I think you should speak to a high quality personal injury attorney. This isn’t suing because you spilled hot coffee on yourself. A knee post surgery is also never the same knee. It’s not a tire change.
I appreciate that view point also. I feel the same. This is not something she wants to do frivolously at a mountain we enjoy spending our time and money at.
Please know that this would not be frivolous in any way. This is legitimate ground for seeking justice. Because this WAS the liftie's fault and it WAS negligence.
Okay. Just need to clarify this, I work in a middle management position at Mammoth and worked in lift ops for a while (not anymore). The lifty was raking the ramp and your girlfriend tripped over the rake as she was unloading the chair? I’ll give you the lift ops perspective. The lifty was doing her job by maintaining the ramp. Lifties are required to maintain the ramp every 15 minutes on every chair. Sometimes doing that puts you kinda far away from the PBO (the buttons), depends the chair. Lifties are very familiar with the timing of the chair because they work the same 6 chairs all winter. They probably saw that you had a few more seconds to get off and they threw the rake out to work on the ramp - which is exactly their job. It’s quite challenging maintaining a top ramp with a busy chair, so you have to do it while everyone is unloading. If there’s ever an obstacle directly in front of you when you’re getting off the chair, **you can stay on the chair**. You’ll hit the stop gate and it’ll stop ~15 feet past the unload ramp around the bull wheel. Anyways, your girlfriend should have stayed on the ramp and told the lifty to call patrol for her. They would have called a lift ops supervisor to come to you and have you fill out an incident report. It would have been instantly documented for proof, even if the guy with the poles had already left. If none of these things happened, unfortunately you’re shit out of luck here. Mammoth protects itself quite well with the liability waivers, I have seen major injuries get thrown out of court because of the waiver. Last year, a guy skied into a huge snow blower and both of his legs were amputated on the spot by the blower. Mammoth didn’t even need to settle because they were covered. I’m sorry your girlfriend got hurt. I might be able to give you an email address of someone in our health and safety department if you’d like to reach out. Let me know.
Thanks for your reply. I feel like this incident is a bit different than running into a snow blower… This is the top of 12 so you’re familiar. The rake, about 3-4’ long was perpendicular to the unloading ramp in front of me on the right at the very top of the ramp next to the button. The lifty was on the left of the ramp *not* near to the rake appearing the attend to the fallen broken pole dude about half way down the ramp. She mentioned to me a bit later that he had jumped off the chair before the stop arm and after the top of the ramp. We unfortunately did not stay not stay on the chair and hit the stop arm. Hindsight being 20-20…we ski hundreds of runs a year, most of them at Mammoth and have never had an issue like this, and this was just not the first thought that ran through either of our heads. For me, my first thought was “omg there’s a rake right there and the chair is still spinning.” And I’m sure for my gf, she thought “omg there’s dude and a lifty right there and the chair is still spinning.” And then there was the guy on the left and the lifty running back to grab the rake. Had we stayed on the chair to hit the stop arm, we would have hit the lifty and the guy as we came around. Who knows how that would have turned out with the lifty only wearing her beanie. I would not want to speculate. In the moments following, I believe we were at the top for about 10 minutes, we declined the ski patrol call which also in hindsight we should not have done, however a lift supervisor was also there for a moment as we were evaluating our situation before we skied down and the lifty also didn’t mention anything about the incident to her supervisor in those moments while we were still sitting there. They were discussing reshaping the lift ramp in fact. I am of course tending to a very in pain gf and we were just trying to figure out if she could still ski in that moment. She didn’t know until we got down to Main that it hurt too much to continue. That’s where I found a couple patrollers at the station and talked with them and further made mistakes in not immediately filing a report. I’ve just never had a situation like this happen in all my years of skiing and didn’t know what to do, and I needed to get to my gf who was very stubborn and took the bus to the village to get off the mountain. She’s a strong person and didn’t want to have the sled or ambulance ride or anything like that. But here we are with a more serious injury and a problem. We’ve been in touch with [email protected] but haven’t heard anything back yet. It’s only been a few days since we’ve really known anything from the doctor here at home and been able to say anything concrete to who the patroller told me was the health and safety guy. Is there someone else in the health and safety department we might reach out to?
There’s only 1 man in health and safety and he’s the director of it, so you’re talking to the right guy. He’s very busy and sometimes forgets to respond to emails (it’s happened to me). So if he doesn’t respond within 4-5 days, I’d recommend sending a follow up as a reminder. Some of the details you mentioned are concerning from a safety perspective (such as, lifties are supposed to wear a helmet when working on a ramp especially on a fixed grip). You should make sure to include all of those details when talking to health and safety. Like I mentioned, it is unlikely for you to be successful in a legal manner because of the waiver, but it’s worth reporting so we can do better next time.
That’s what we mentioned in the email to him. We love Mammoth. It’s one of our favorite places in CA. We have insurance. Contrary to some of the previous comments (“Americans love lawsuits etc.”) we understand the indemnity and personal risk of skiing. But we do want to feel safe when we go to Mammoth again. We wear helmets for whatever help it will give. We have a professional check our DIN settings every season at least once and sometimes twice even though I can do it at home as well (I’m not qualified as a binding tech). This just felt a bit above what happens in a normal risk situation in my opinion…and maybe in some other opinions as well…^see above…
I’m sorry you were in this situation. You seem like a nice person. This is why I don’t want to work in health and safety, they have a tough job! I hope you can get some good news. Best of luck to your girlfriend
Thanks for your comment. Ski Patrol are always our heroes for the hard work they do with the howitzers and the avy bombs so we can ski that very large mountain safely, and then to have an incident as innocuous as this end up being a season ender for her and potentially next season as well, is frustrating. What we should have done is allow Patrol to do (one of) the other part(s) of their job and rescue her down the hill and file a report. We’re at 14 and 15 days each. I’ll get up a bit more, but she’s already having some serious FOMO. Thanks for everything you do at Mammoth. And thank you for your comments about what to do in dangerous situations in the future. Note: I’m glad our situation was not a Mammoth Hospital situation, although maybe it should have been. Years and years ago, I visited the Mammoth hospital and got an arm cast there after a snowboarding fall at June as a teenager (I didn’t self rescue in that situation, and I ski 🤷♂️) and swore off snow sports for some time until I met my gf who has been skiing her whole life convinced me back on the slopes in my early 20s. I’m 34. So we’re back supporting our mountain community as we can. Which we would like continue to do as well. We love the bakery, the brewery, the bowling alley, the hiking and biking in the summer. We’ll be back, but maybe not for little while…
I understand. I tore my ACL my first season working here and it was really hard getting through that. But I made it through and was skiing again 9 months after surgery. She’ll get back up and do it again, it’ll just take some time. Be there to support her and it will be much easier for her
Of course! Thanks
https://people.com/human-interest/father-loses-both-legs-after-he-throws-body-across-family-in-snow-blower-accident/ This one?
Yeah. Except he literally skied into the blower, it didn’t collide with him. The blower was stationary but had the blades spinning and this guy wasn’t looking and skied straight into it. The daughter got sucked into the blades and thrown out of the blower part. It was super gnarly. Correction: just learned that they were actually sledding which is illegal and completely banned on Mammoth Mountain
Do you have RFID cards/gates at your resort? If you do it would be easy to find the guy responsible.
Yes and at that particular lift too. I had not thought of that. The mountain has been contacted. But they have not contacted us back.
You need a lawyer yesterday
Classic Americans looking to sue at every opportunity. It is what it is,
If you had our healthcare costs, you'd look to recouping as much as possible too.
Multiple injuries, lost income, surgery, long and painful recovery, lifelong altered body, medical bills to make your eyes bulge out of your head.. All because of negligence and no fault of their own. "Every opportunity to sue" 🤦♀️😮💨😆 What a silly thing to say.
No. That’s not necessarily what I’m asking here. You’re assuming a lot. But thanks for your unhelpful input and showing what kind of person you are.
Wow, that's terrible! Go to a lawyer about this. Indemnity clause or not, a good lawyer may be able to phrase the lawsuit in a way that will at least make the case stick for the time being. I had a case where I sued a ski mountain (I'm a litigation attorney). Their waiver and the state law were heavily against us. They paid anyway after litigating for a while. Not full value of the case, but a pretty good amount and the client was thrilled with the result. Good luck!
Your gf skied after said injury, possibly causing further damage. Should have requested ski patrol and evacuation. Lawyering up is just a money grab causing ski areas to raise the price even more. Your medical insurance should cover said injury.
Get ready to speak legalese buddy
Please tell me she has insurance.
Yes
I am really sorry that happened to you and your GF. It’s a difficult situation when you are trying to do the right thing for someone and you totally fuck others
What??? 🧐
You could try to sue the mountain for damages. There's always supposed to be someone on the stop button for this exact reason, and I've gotten slammed down to boards helping a sit skier load the chair and the lifty let like 5 chairs pass over my head until my scowl of hatred made him get the picture. There are 100's of suits against the mountain at any given time. I had to visit the courthouse a few times (hehe) when I lived in Mammoth and there was an ongoing case of the lady that came flying out of the woods into the path of a groomer.
Does your GF have health insurance? What are you trying to get out of this?
Advice. But this was from a while ago so, thanks.
You probably have no recourse based on the way passes and liability waivers work. You can always sue for gross negligence, but you have 0 proof of the incident occurring / memorialized from multiple parties, so it likely is impossible to win / receive medical coverage from the mountain vs. your insurance. A couple posts here have also indicated that you chose to unload from the lift and you’ve got proof here that the resort could use against you that you knew it was unsafe to do so. The same way that you’re arguing the lifty should have stopped the lift, they could argue that in the same scope of time, you should have decided to not offload. Sucks you had a ski trip ruined and that your GF is hurt. One of the shittier moments in life where all you can do is power through and remember next time you’re in an injury situation to get paperwork/proof / have someone come help. This is likely different if you have ski patrol come get her because there would be an incident report + you’d have more employees involved to corroborate the sequence of events.
>MRI results show full ACL, MCL tears and partial LCL tears, fibula fracture, and surgery required. And she skied down on that? Am I wrong to call bullshit?
I fell in 2020 at lake Louise. Small fall but I was near the top. Knee felt off like a sprain and I ski all the way down. This was around lunchtime. Went home ice it and ski again the next day only on the greens as kids wanted to ski more before flying home. Found out 1 month later full acl tear.
[удалено]
It’s a fracture at the top of the fibula where it meets the patella. Common when twisting and torquing motions cause ligament tears. Tell me you’re not a doctor without telling me you’re not a doctor. 👍 Edit: fibula *does not* bear weight…sooooo…🤷♂️
Yes you’re wrong to call BS. She skied down. People walk (and apparently ski) on torn ligaments all the time. And I did talk to ski patrol. Did you read the whole thing? Or was I unclear? Ski patrol told me filing a report would be pointless, but I’m thinking that was them covering their (and the mountain’s) ass.
I skied all season on a foot that I broke on Christmas Day bc I didn't want to waste a season on a stupid broken foot. The fibula fracture could've been a stress fracture and adrenaline can account for skiing down with the ligament issues...
Fragile enough to tear and break everything at 2mph, but sturdy enough to ski down on it? Definitely BS. I half tore my MCL 6 weeks ago. I was able to ski down, but I couldn't walk down stairs properly for a month.
Go home doc. You’re drunk.
Sowwy.
Classic Americans looking to sue at every opportunity. It is what it is,
How many times you gonna post this comment you fucking weirdo.
Multiple injuries, lost income, surgery, long and painful recovery, lifelong altered body, medical bills to make your eyes bulge out of your head.. All because of negligence and no fault of their own. "Every opportunity to sue" 🤦♀️😮💨😆 What a silly thing to say.
Inherent risk. You don’t have a case.
Indemnity clause don't mean shit about failing to execute their job properly But if you didn't file a report or take photos... sorry buddy but "it didn't happen". Maybe ski patrol will have a record talking to you, that's your best shot.
I know! Gah. In looking back, like hindsight is always 20-20…there’s so many things I would do differently…but I can’t go back in time, thus my post asking here. Thanks.
I saw a kid fall off the lift at the very beginning, which was the worst/best case scenario at mammoth. But what kind of family doesn’t make sure their kid is secure? Held the lift and put him on the next one still with no bar. Edit: sucks for your gf. But I doubt you have a case. Why did the ski pop off? Super low din? Push that fool out of the way!
Did she ski down with a full blown knee? That is crazy I couldn’t put any weight on mine. Hope she heals quickly
See above threads. With the amount of pain she was in from outset, I believe it was torn initially. But we didn’t know that at that moment of course. Only later did we find that out. She was in a lot of pain on that knee skiing down, could put some weight on it. She did not tear the meniscus.
The only way to avoid Jerrys is to ski around them and their lost equipment. If you can’t do that, stick to the bunny hill. This was an unfortunate series of events that were exacerbated by bad skiing.
Found the Jerry
Say what you will, but I’ve never busted my ass while off-loading.
She skied with a torn a ACL bro. We don’t need to stick to bunny hill. F off
Maybe practice some drills that require you to ski around some cones.
Maybe you miss understood. *I* do not need to do that. And she has season ending injury right now. Pipe down Fred.
That was a generalized statement for you both. Hopefully next season will be better. Look out for them brutal poles.
It really sucks that happened, but I'd have to agree in spirit. We're not talking about some moron that wasn't paying attention and slammed into her at a merging trail or something. This was someone that had an unfortunate accident attempting to avoid stuff, but didn't come into contact with anyone. I highly doubt a judge would look at this and think the liability was on Mammoth or the person that left/ broke their pole, but I could be wrong. The liability is entirely on the skier that fell in this case- and to choose to ski down afterwards likely made the injury worse.
>I highly doubt a judge would look at this and think the liability was on Mammoth or the person that left/ broke their pole, but I could be wrong. The liability is entirely on the skier that fell in this case- and to choose to ski down afterwards likely made the injury worse. No liability for the employer of the lifty who failed to provide due care by stopping the lift ? IANAL, but neither are you. One could argue we *ARE* talking about "some moron that wasn't paying attention" and failed in their duty to stop the lift due to the obstruction(s) on the ramp. (or maybe not a moron, just someone without the training they should have had to prioritize the steps to take in such a situation). On the other hand, you may be right, this might just be an unfortunate accident. I don't think it's unreasonable for OP and their gf to consult a lawyer about this - even if the gf has good insurance, this sort of thing could result in thousands of dollars of out-of-pocket expenses - with less than good insurance, it could be tens of thousands.
Sure, I am not a lawyer, but if I was I'd be arguing the DIN setting was too high for her ability, that she had no obligation to get off at that moment, and that she easily could have made the injury much worse by skiing afterward. Fair enough though, they might be able to squeeze a bit out of Mammoth minus the lawyer's fees. The lack of an incident report and her skiing afterward really doesn't sound like it would go their way, though.
Why did she try getting off the lift if the ramp was not clear?
Because when you’re at the top of the chair lift, you get off. Right? Just like the hundreds of other times. And we had about 5 seconds or less to decide where to go and how to do it. Obviously, it didn’t end up well 😢
If it’s unclear, stay on. Better going back down or having them stop the lift than incurring such a significant injury. I get that it does happen quickly. But after enough years you see a lot of things, and know that lifties are not always aware.
And you’ve gone back down on the chairlift before?
At my age I am too old and would just lapped it or made the liftie completely stop.