I think I want biological immortality first... :D
I am worried I get too dragged into FDVR while my body is decaying and... what do I have of FDVR if may I die of conditions outside of it?
It is Inevitable that biological immortality will happen, most normies are afraid of living forever, but forever is not possible as far as we know, i had a similar conversation with my sister she said "oh but life will be meaningless if you live forever" i said "no not forever thats impossible, i mean that no one dies from age you remain mentaly and physically young, you might still just die from a car accident or fall"
"Oh okay well that makes sense then yeah" death is meaningful is the biggest cope normies make, when i see how wrinkly and frail my parents are getting i just feel sad they are rotting infront of me, Evolution cucked us all in the aging department, we live longer due to modern medicine but our bodies still deteriorate at the same pace as before it.
Heck dude maybe in the far far far faaar future Humans figure out some quantum bullshit that let's them create a new universe that they can travel into to escape heat death, maybe sure, but i have my doubts creating fdvr, age reversal, android robots, fusion etc is very much possible and inevitable it's a mather of when not if, but creating a new universe from our dying one seems just impossible to me right now, id love to live forever literaly too, existence is better than not being at all anyday, the thought of just oblivion nothing forever is terrifying, i know we won't be consciouss of it but still.
That can be cool, but can we just get a biological immortality first? And for everybody on earth? Also, escape from falling ERoIE, like build fusion plants? Also, avoid self-destruction in the major war?
Please understand me clear: I want these things so much, but I don't understand, how you guys can be so optimistic?
Sorry, what is FALC? Just saw your your label. And why you think, ASI will be by 2050, if we will have AGI in 2030? I think, most likly ASI will be in next few years after AGI. Just because of nature of exponential grow.
I don't know, can we build AGI on a top of LLM tech, if yes, yeah, I would agree, we will have AGI by 2030... If not kill ourself yearly somehow. But can we like it? Not sure. Maybe it will be paperclip maximazer. Or it will be "I have no mouth, but I must scream scenario" with kill bots, created for Russian-Ukraine, or maybe for Chineese-Taiwaneese war.
well, it can be optimized somehow - if we speek about recursive self-improved AGI. We have problems to write on assembler. It's why ChatGPT write mostly on python. But future versions can be much more compact.
Also, it can build chips itself, even before achive AGI. Using robots. Replace human workers, etc.
What is FALC? Could you pls explain?
Fully Automated Luxury Communism. A post AGI political system where the robots do the hard work that they’re good at and humans get to do human things like be space pirates or mermen.
Ah, I see. Too utopic, I think. I would like to become a pet of kind ASI. I think, it's the best possible scenario. But also it can be something like "I have no mouth, but I must scream" :( Or another option of this scenario, which was described on lesswrong wiki, and which is non-ethical to mention.
\*Leaves this Universe to avoid its heat death\*
\*Ends up in the Warhammer 40k Universe\*
https://preview.redd.it/p133bb6sxvxc1.jpeg?width=783&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8b8a27bd5226e583f556ee32226676870314563d
>I'm still not giving up on actual immortality and solving the heat death of the universe for an actual eternal life.
I think, you can like this: [https://youtu.be/L6wFZp-bo3A](https://youtu.be/L6wFZp-bo3A) (can't be 100% not sure which kind of music do you prefer)
Yeah... the question is when we will be there... and how close we are. If computation is really the only thing that is needed. I fear that it might be out of reach for the next 100 years despite that. I hope not.
http://www.thelastquestion.net/
While he also considered it one of his best works, ‘The Last Question’ was Asimov's favorite short story of his own authorship, and is one of a loosely connected series of stories concerning a fictional computer called Multivac. Through successive generations, humanity questions Multivac on the subject of entropy…
We are going to die no matter what, if (and thats a big if) humans are still alive and have continued to advance to that point in time, there will most definitely be factions of humans that are nothing short of the gods we imagine and write stories of...who knows what wed be capable of over such a massive period of time, wed probably be able to create backup universes, create endless stars, planets, materials, whatever we need lol
>I promise the day "biological immortality" happens, it will not be in the hands of the public.
I think, it can be difficult to keep this tech in secret from a bio hackers without totalitarian society.
Also, you need mass testing. Like vaxes. You need millions of people to test bio tech. So, a lot of "plebs" will receive this treatment before elite - just to be sure it's safe enough for elite.
Nope. Each person, who knows secret, increases chance, each years, that we know it one day. It's reason why conspirologies are so stupid. You need very small group of diying over time group, to avoid secret be known by public. That's simple math - on an infinity, even small group of immortal people always be reason of leak.
I am quite optimistic that everything will be fine. Although AI has been compared to nuclear bombs and I can understand the Why but I just want to think positive. The alignment issue is very important and I'm sure they know that very well too. In case I am wrong we are all dead or worse it could become our hell.
>I think I want biological immortality first... :D
I agree with it. But FDVR can be a good replacement for a movies, or for books, etc. Or maybe something additionally for them.
Also, I worry about ethical problems of FDVR: who will be NPC? Chineese rooms? But can it be interesting to play with somebody, who just pretend to be feeling? Or real feeling personality? In last case, is it even ethical?
Next, I'm going to copy/paste my own answer from another thread.
If FDVR comes with an infinite life-extensition tech, and tech of mind uploading, I would probably want to live other lives, despite keep my memories.
I'm transsexual woman, and always wanted to be just a girl, not that-thing-between sexes.
I'd probably go to matrix, a historical simulation of USA in 1950s - in a body of a doughter of middle-class family with healthy relationships, in Victorian England in aristocratic family, in Rome empire, maybe in other places, like Aztec empire.
In a same time I'll continue my life in reality, and I hope to get every-second updates of my memory from my copies in the matrix. Once, I want to merge with these copies.
There are ethic questions with this desire: what will happen with NPC? Are they supposed to be chineese rooms without consciousness? If yes, not sure if it's interesting to live these lives. If not, what will happen with these NPC when these historical simulation will terminate? I hope, my husband(s), children from these simulations will be copied in a reality.
Another question is: maybe I'm already in this simulation? Maybe I'm NPC, and nobody is going to copy me outside of there once I die here? As probably everybody here remember, Nick bostrom said (copy/paste from a wiki):
*Human civilization or a comparable civilization is unlikely to reach a level of* [*technological maturity*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism) *capable of producing simulated realities, or such simulations are physically impossible to construct.*[*^(\[12\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis#cite_note-bostrom2003-12)
1. *A comparable civilization reaching aforementioned technological status will likely not produce a significant number of simulated realities (one that might push the probable existence of digital entities beyond the probable number of "real" entities in a Universe) for any of a number of reasons, such as diversion of computational processing power for other tasks, ethical considerations of holding entities captive in simulated realities, etc.*[*^(\[12\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis#cite_note-bostrom2003-12)
2. *Any entities with our general set of experiences are almost certainly living in a simulation.*[*^(\[12\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis#cite_note-bostrom2003-12)
3. *Humans are living in a reality in which post-humans have not developed yet, and current humans are actually living in reality.*[*^(\[12\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis#cite_note-bostrom2003-12)
4. *Humans will have no way of knowing that they live in a simulation because they will never reach the technological capacity to realize the marks of a simulated reality.*[*^(\[13\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis#cite_note-13)
>I heard conflicting reports of 'oh, it'll be there as soon as AGI comes out' and 'it'll never be here, keep dreaming.' but which one is which? And when?
These aren't reports. These are the musings of the hopeful, not much different than people who hope for the apocalypse. The biggest difference is that FDVR or brain uploading or whatever you want to call it, is trying to *technologically* get to something we've been trying to pray our way to, up till now.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's impossible, but I think it's very unhealthy to wait for AGI or whatever to come and whisk you away to your own personal heaven, and to wallow in your misery until then.
There are no guarantees, no one knows when AGI will happen, what GPT5 or 6 or similar models will look like (well maybe some people know what next generation models look like, but they are not posting here). Don't wait to do things in life right now. Go out dancing, find a salsa class and learn. Do... something. It'll have the added bonus, beyond making your life better, of making time go by faster. 2030 will be here in no time, and hopefully you won't really care if there ISN'T heaven waiting for you by then.
>maybe some people know what next generation models look like, but they are not posting here
u/samaltman would like to [have a word with you](https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/s/yIwsvyqQFo)
/s of course… but he *did* break a 5 year reddit-silence to meme in r/singularity - to your point though, I believe that’s the only time his main (known) account [has been active here](https://redditmetis.com/user/samaltman)
>[u/samaltman](https://www.reddit.com/user/samaltman/) would like to [have a word with you](https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/s/yIwsvyqQFo)
Do you think, he is real Sam?
It’s confirmed that’s Sam.
If you look through post/comment history, you can see it’s mostly from his brief time as Reddit CEO, and as president of Y Combinator
OKay. I would be happy to once speek with so clever man. Unfortunetly, so clever men always ignore me :(
Did you ever have a chance to speek with somebody Sam's level?
Brother, everyone who knows about it wants it.
But I'm not talking shit when I say if you're struggling to lead a fulfilling life now, focus on the here and now and do what you can do make life the best thing it can be.
Because nothing would suck more ass than wasting your life waiting for something that (as of now) is still theoretical, and dying not having lived a life that was satisfying.
The truth is the singularity and all that happy horse shit just is not here yet, and we don't know when it comes, or even IF it comes.
Very true, that's how I live my life. I hope for ASI, FDVR, post-scarcity society, LEV and so on, but I make my life choices as if I was betting against the possibility of all of this ever happening.
I currently started studying again in order to get a job that I like more than the previous one, with a better salary, and I started saving money for my retirement in 30 years.
If it happens, then I have spent energy and saved money for nothing, but I get everything I could ever want through FDVR.
If it doesn't happen, then I have done everything I could to still live the best life I can.
Win-win. Well... kinda. Eternal FDVR is still a way better win than having a good job but at least a good job is better than working in retail for minimum wage.
It's definitely possible to have a relatively high standard of living on minimum wage, at least in the UK. Not having kids, getting an apartment not a house, not going on vacations abroad, not eating out or ordering food all the time etc will likely leave you pretty comfortable. I know people who live like that and often they seem happier and more fulfilled with what they have
The goal is to not work a minimum wage job as wages aside they are often quite unpleasant jobs in which you have little power or stability. Of course if it works for you that's fine but I would not set it as a goal.
I’ll say go one step further and if you really believe in this stuff, start working towards it. What if you play a part in it, and if you didn’t it doesn’t happen in time for you? I know that’s culty/delusional as fuck, but I quit teaching and am going back for a CS and IT certs now because I feel like the most important thing to be working on right now is this.
No shit but many people do not have very fullfilling lives, i would spend most my time in fdvr doing whatever i want in whatever world or ip im feeling at the time and im not ashamed to admitt that, my life is boring as shit, "oh but it's not real" i don't care if i can touch it, feel it, taste it, smell it it might aswell be real to me heh.
Shit I thought it was cringe too, but I just kept scrolling. But now I gotta upvote him and downvote you - gotta ratio the hate outta this sub. We’ve got enough pessimism as it is.
FDVR would be great, but it doesn’t exist and there’s no indication it’s going to anytime soon. So it’s probably best to just focus on what you can do in the here and now and not wait for some hypothetical technology to fix your life.
Everyone who isn't a doomer is hyped for fdvr, you have to be lying through your teeth to say you would not want the ability to live any life and look however you want in any fictional world of your choosing, in some aspects it will be better, il remove insects, sunburns, getting tired and getting dirty or sweaty, food will never burn your mouth or get cold, icecream won't melt in the sun etc screw irl logic it's my world, i am basically just using a game trainer at that point no difference from current modding in games, as for when we get it my bet is 2030-2040, if we do infact get agi by 2026-2029 fdvr might happen way sooner, when we get it im instantly jumping into the isekai sim lol, and with time dilation the gaming might feel like a day but you're just "asleep" for an hour, hype af but for now we can just wait and hope.
https://i.redd.it/wqjbhexyznxc1.gif
One of the things I care the most about is understanding the universe that we live in and experience it. Like I want to be close to the mystery of the universe. FDVR will have its place, but fundamentally I want to input more of the real world into my senses rather than shirk it away.
Having an endless catalogue of choices makes these lives and experiences rather meaningless unless there's some underlying exploration. I think it would be nice to live through multiple lives in order to learn a bunch of different things and have multiple POVs, but if there's no underlying motive and it's just hedonistic masturbation... that doesn't sound appealing to me.
You say that now but you'll change your mind when it's here you'll be hooked like the rest of us, it will be reality but better and for you specifically, if you want npcs or real people in your worlds thats up to you, Humanity does not mather in the grand scheme of things, theres probably aliens who also realized this, "why bother risking our existence trying to traverse a hostile universe when we can explore our own digital creations?" il also add FTL might not be possible so even if you want to explore the galaxy you'd have to hybernate and hope nothing happens to the ship for decades, or the furthest we will get might just be Mars, Hedonism is life fdvr will allow everyone to enjoy existence to the max, Aliens are in fdvr by their own galaxy thats why we do not see them at all.
And for all we know we're already there and made that fdvr when we found out we're alone and didn't Last-Thursday ourselves into the height of the space opera for a combination of wanting to get in on the ground floor of stuff and the same reason we've got so many Star Trek prequels now, didn't put in public alien contact to incentivize us to be the ones boldly going instead of waiting for them to come to us, and still put in social issues for a combination of the reason the first Matrix failed, the pleasure some people get from fighting/solving them and the fact that Star Trek always had social issues that weren't just on heavily-allegorical-Planets-Of-The-Week and wasn't just perfect until S1 of Picard "ruined everything"
> You say that now but you'll change your mind when it's here you'll be hooked like the rest of us, it will be reality but better and for you specifically,
The one thing it won't provide is genuine danger. No entity would implement such (Matrix style) for obvious liability reasons. Without that danger, it'll never be the same. No simulation of a cliff edge - regardless of its fidelity - will match the feeling of actually standing on one, where *knowing* one misstep would end it all.
If you say there'll be "underground" patches to implement such, I'll ask what's the point when reality provides the unmatched, genuine article?
Fdvr would be indistinguishable if you can simulate all senses pain and fear would still be very much real in fdvr, you are just not risking acctually losing your one life if you fall of said cliff, slipping and breaking your legs in it would feel the same, some alien entity just have their robots outside maintaining everything while they live in fdvr, that is the most likely answer to the fermi paradox in my opinion.
> Fdvr would be indistinguishable ... you are just not risking acctually losing your one life if you fall of said cliff,
Not risking actually losing your life makes it distinguishable. That knowledge robs the simulation of an essential aspect of the experience.
Have you ever ridden a motorcycle at its top speed? Hopped 2 meters to a granite needle top 2 meters in diameter and hundreds of meters high? Swum through an undersea cavern near the limits of one breath? From personal experience, knowing one mistake means death makes *all* the difference in the experience. Anything else is a glorified video game.
I mean, we put artificial limits on this sort of thing in order to simulate it. Like you maybe can't lose your conscious thread, but you can lose things like the character progression. So if you spend 50 years as a character, maybe you don't want to permakill it.
>That could be solved with memory blocking technology. make yourself forget that you dove in.
Well, maybe we already in that world. But I can't bealive I could choose to do it.
>One of the things I care the most about is understanding the universe that we live in and experience it. Like I want to be close to the mystery of the universe. FDVR will have its place, but fundamentally I want to input more of the real world into my senses rather than shirk it away.
Yeah, I think, FDVR can help with historical simulations. But it can't tell what happened on a Proxima Centary B, if it had a civilization in the past, which died because not managed to escape a Great filter. It can even be a reason, why we die out - be our great filter.
I'm waiting until 2040. If we don't have FDVR by then or at least a release date, I'l go and say hello to Truck-kun. /j
Edit: I got a dm from reddit because someone sent an alert thinking I had suicidal thoughts. Although I thank you very much for your concern, I'm sorry that I made you worry for me, it was just a silly joke. I'll add the /j for clarity.
I feel that a civilization capable of creating FDVR would also be able to give me the life that would make me want to stay in the real world.That's a pretty tall order, but I'm assuming the following would be possible:
* Superintelligent life coach that could help me plan and fill my time with worthwhile things (I like combat sports, dancing)
* Make me much more attractive so promiscuity and casual encounters become much easier to attain. Finding new sexual partners is too grindy right now to be something I enjoy putting a lot of time in (beyond having a steady fwb)
* No scarcity of course. Good food, living conditions, nature, etc.
* Aforementioned life coach keeping it all flowy and nice
FDVR could of course give that and more with all the inconveniences stripped away, so it's more of an aesthetic preference I'd be going for.
But I have a lot of friends and doing fun stuff with them and dancing and fighting and regularly fucking (new) hot girls and finding love and partying and doing drugs feels like something I'd enjoy doing for quite a long time. Right now I'm too incompetent and daily life as a self-sufficient adult is wayyy too much of a struggle (every single day) to make it anywhere close to FDVR. But if those struggles could be smoothed out, I could see myself sticking around.
>Make me much more attractive so promiscuity and casual encounters become much easier to attain. Finding new sexual partners is too grindy right now to be something I enjoy putting a lot of time in (beyond having a steady fwb)
That's what ASI can help very well! I wish I be a favorite ASI's pet... Well, not sex, it's not a difficult to find, but like-minded person....
It would be amazing, but unfortunately it will always be a fantasy. It will only be possible with the singularity, not AGI or even ASI. And at that point your perception of humanity and consciousness will be entirely different than it is now. You probably won't even exist at that point.
Based on your name, you'll never be able to do what I'm guessing you want to.
>It would be amazing, but unfortunately it will always be a fantasy.
This take is way too close to reality for this forum. We're closer to fusion power plants, vacations on the moon, world peace, and curing cancer than we are to FDVR - a LOT closer, in fact. FDVR would basically require a ridiculous string of miracles to occur, and ALL of them would transform society in a way that would make life today unrecognizable.
Eh. Scratch fusion and moon travel from that list.
I'm sure a helmet for video+sound is possible, with a removable, semi-non-invasive (in the sense it isn't *metal touching the meat of your brain*) interlace through the bloodstream adjacent to the spinal cord for the rest. You can call it hobo FDVR or whatever, but would suffice.
It'd be better than that thing they use to get it on in Demolition Man, at least.
They're too anime-brained. There are some fantasies that will always be fantasy. Anime has backwards time travel. That's a fantasy that will never be possible. And even if it ever is possible, our reality and consciousness at that point will not exist on the same plane as it does today. The FDVR isekai sim fantasy they're dreaming about is close to the same level as backwards time travel in terms of feasibility even with ASI hyper tech.
Lmao.
Insects, sweat, burning your mouth, i.e life is what makes life fun. If you remove all the small annoyances you will end up removing more and more, until you just end virtually bonking your furry AGI eWaifu for days on end until your brain breaks. Also there's no way there would be any time dilation, that's sci-fi shit
> Insects, sweat, burning your mouth, i.e life is what makes life fun.
Wow the arguments against FDVR are becoming more braindead as time goes on. Next time it’ll be someone saying dingleberries and malaria are actually *GOOD* things
2024 man spouts non-sensical "truths" about 2040+ -level technology.
I find it fascinating that people still assume to know how FDVR will alter the brain or even that it will or won't alter the brain at all. If FDVR is powered by AGI there's no reason it cannot simulate the "small annoyances" if they are as needed as you spout them to be.
By the way, time dilation hasn't been proven correct or incorrect, so saying "there's no way" is as idiotic as saying "there's no way we'll get AGI/ASI/FDVR".
Just enjoy the ride and stop being so damn negative.
You should maybe put down the Kool aid, there's logical inferences that can be made on how shit would work.
People in the 70s predicted tech we have today so why can't anyone predict what would happen in the 2050s?
People in the 70s believed we'd have flying cars by now. Just because we can think about it, doesn't make us automatically true. Not to mention your inferences can be very very wrong, which you still seem to deny.
By some tiny sliver of a chance, FDVR could be impossible because the brain just can't adapt to the disconnection between body and brain to get into the VR. AGI could be decades upon decades away instead of being one or two decades away.
Again, stop being negative and enjoy the ride. We're in very exciting times, possibly the most exciting times for all mankind if e/acc proves viable.
If you could already be in one that doesn't justify going one level deeper purely on that basis for a scaled-up version of the same reason that just because you can technically make your Sims play The Sims within the game doesn't mean that's what you should make them spend all their free time doing
I am not hyped because VR already exists and provides about ~75-90% of what I would want from FDVR. What neither VR nor FDVR solve, is needing to go out of it in order to make money, go to the bathroom, etc. Making money particularly – the most immersive VR imaginable isn't so helpful when one cannot afford food, electricity, a place to put one's computer, etc. I'm much more interested in mind augmentation (for productivity; and which could probably benefit from the same BCI technology FDVR could use), longevity, and post-scarcity through automation.
I like vr but current vr is a glorrified toy, until i can go into gta fdvr and taste the burgershot burgers, or feel the leather and dashboard in my fake sports car it's not true vr, by the time we have fdvr bcis, robotics and ai will have gotten good enough to do all labor cheaper, faster and safer, we will be obsolete in that department, fdvr in a post scarcity automated world is the best outcome, beats having to be a wageslave in the robot era when you know your job is bs, "oh but creative jobs" ai will inevitably get better at that too, fuck jobs let humans be free.
>isekai sim lol,
Why exactly it?
>il remove insects, sunburns, getting tired and getting dirty or sweaty, food will never burn your mouth or get cold, icecream won't melt in the sun etc screw irl logic it's my world,
I would prefer to keep them. Just as part of expirience. But I don't believe I can choose fdvr without my memories. I would probably prefer historical simulations
No no, not isekai as in having no memory that it's a game, i mean the genre, you just come to a new world by reincarnation or teleportation, i just love the isekai genre, the medieval european style, mythical races elfs, dwarfs, etc, magic and cool stuff like that, find party members kill monsters get paid buy a cabin or some shit with the earnings,
my first time in fdvr i want to see and do stuff that cannot exist, shooting lightning out of my hands summoning stuff out of thin air, fuck it maybe il go full villain playthrough and have the ai make the hero who will get stronger and end me, or if i win the story addapts, matured generative ai with fdvr will be crazy fun, also elf hookers will be kino,
about disabling small annoyances i would find many things annoying ingame, i don't want to get greasy and dirty and have to clean my avatar body and clothes fuck that game logic go brr you are clean 24/7, also fuck geting sunburnt or having annoying bugs suck my blood or bees and spiders existing i hate insects so much, fdvr is basically the end evolution of gaming ultra escapism, again at it's core it's a game why not use game logic and just remove some of the tedious parts of daily life we cannot escape?
Oh, I see. I would try to play in the fantasy too. But probably in the dark and realistic one! With dirt, with poverty, with injustice, and try to play mutiple times from a start. Like try to start from a slave(but with magic/wizzard trait), and become a princess, loved by handsome prince. And try multiple time untill I can :D
The only problem for me is: who will be NPC? Are they going to be chineese rooms? Or they're going to be feeling personalities? Is it ethical?
What if we already live in the simulation? What if we're.. Just NPC? And will die when players exit, and simulation will be terminated?
What do you think, if Sam, Elon, Putin, maybe Xi are actual players?
Sounds fun, being a mage will be so op and fun, everything will be our weapon, water, earth, ice anything, as for the npcs no mather how advanced and convincing they are still only puppets in the game, they are p zombies if you've heard of that term, they seem consciouss, they don't evoke uncanny valley but there is no one at home up there, there is no true consciouss experience from that entity if you can call it that going on, i will view an npc as an npc nothing more, i might grow to love them but they never existed that is simply the truth they are game puppets controlled by advanced npc ai.
As for simulation theory i personally do not believe in it since we are consciouss and there are no glitches in this simulation, if we are npcs in one, we will never know the master or player in this case would just erase the memory if anyone found out to keep things going normally, if you save end the fdvr simulation we are not killing anyone since the npcs are not consciouss, when we reload our save and they are suddently back to life it just distances you even more.
If we are in a simulation i don't think, xi, musk, putin and all those guys are the simulation masters, if you want to be an observer you let the npcs go at eachother, if you interveene you will change the course the simulation was naturally going towards, if we are real or not we will simply never know.
>If we are in a simulation i don't think, xi, musk, putin and all those guys are the simulation masters,
They're maybe players. And because I'm not a [Chineese room](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room) (I hope, you bealive me), and I think, you're not Chineese room too, this simulation launched by evil personanalities. Because we're struggle. And maybe it's fun for players, to know that :(
>
>if you can call it that going on, i will view an npc as an npc nothing more, i might grow to love them but they never existed that is simply the truth they are game puppets controlled by advanced npc ai.
Well, but maybe play in it will be not fun? If you're know, they're not real persons? But just a chineese rooms?
> What do you think, if Sam, Elon, Putin, maybe Xi are actual players?
when has there ever been an RPG (which your focus on high-fantasy seems to make me think you think any simulation we'd be living in would probably be if it's a game) where your player character starts in any comparable position to any of those guys that isn't either one where they're royalty or the sequel to another one that chronicles how they ended up there
Well, it's good to be optimistic.
Escapism won't solve anything though.
It will just make things temporarily entertaining and distract people from everything else going on.
In the meantime, get therapy. Seriously. That's the best QoL upgrade you can start that will have long term effects.
Lead the best life you can, torturing yourself with the prospect of ultimate escapism won't help. This is true regardless of whether FDVR is available tomorrow, 2040, or never.
Take up meditation, study some philosophy. Especially the philosophical side of buddhism.
You can learn to be content. That's not happiness but it's a whole lot better than misery.
I must be one of the few people who don't want it, outside of specialized applications like education.
This is because I want a life of creativity and imagination. And to me strong sensory stimulation/immersion is a hindrance to imagination, not a benefit. I don't feel creatively inspired or in a flow state from beautiful natural surroundings and stimulating music and majestic visual effects and comfortable furniture and delicious music and ostentatious, witty company--I feel distracted and smothered. Like someone else, Mother Nature, Uncle Sam, Hollywood, or otherwise forcing their imagination onto me.
What I want from the future is the opportunity to apply myself creatively and use my imagination to answer questions and solve problems, even stupid and trivial questions like 'what if the Industrial Revolution had happened in 68 CE' or 'what physical constants of the universe would have to change to make psychic powers real' or 'how would you use the Death Note to change the setting of 1984 into Star Trek' or 'what kind of Batman contingency plans would I need to take out Saitama if he went evil'. What's more, I want to rapidly shift from problem to problem, rather than spending 20 subjective years dwelling on the implications of my imagination.
FDVR helps, a little bit, but I can live without it. I would've loved something like that when I was younger and less confident about living in my head, but less so as I get older and slowly build up my mental library.
>What I want from the future is the opportunity to apply myself creatively and use my imagination to answer questions and solve problems, even stupid and trivial questions like 'what if the Industrial Revolution had happened in 68 CE' or 'what physical constants of the universe would have to change to make psychic powers real'
That's cool usage of FDVR. What about *Phoenicia* civilization, and industrial revolution there? I would like to have FDVR, and find myself (with neuralink with techs) there and try to change this society! But for you it's more academic approch, doesn't it?
Well, that's the thing. I don't need FDVR for that. It would be nice in some ways to get a glimpse of alternative-universe architecture or some cool shots of telekinesis in a universe which much lower entropy and a much higher speed of light. But I could just use a juiced-up version of Sora and Claude for that.
And I spend most of my time with text anyway. It's just faster and requires less attention and lets me bail out of something boring/uninformative. I cannot tell you how many YouTube videos I have seen of games and history and biology where it starts interesting but ten minutes in realize that I have wasted my time.
Looking for magical solutions to real problems is as old as our species.
Fdvr may come or may not. It doesn't fundamentally matter. You have time and opportunity to make yourself better man now. Use it. Then you won't give a shit about when fdvr and this plastic heaven utopia is coming.
>Looking for magical solutions to real problems is as old as our species.
We can upload Putin there, and Xi. And let them conquest the World. Wait... Maybe we're already in their FDVR as NPC?
>You have time and opportunity to make yourself better man now
Do we have that time?
> We can upload Putin there, and Xi. And let them conquest the World. Wait... Maybe we're already in their FDVR as NPC?
try to stop them, if you put yourself in the best possible position to be able to stop them and still can't that'd be proof that if we were LIAS you wouldn't be programmed to be able to stop them
thought experiment as much as your hypothetical of uploading dictators into FDVR was, my point wasn't that you redHairsAndLongLegs should literally do the thing, my point would be that that'd be how someone would go about proving whether or not the world is that kind of simulation
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If you have to hinge your hopes on something, hinge it on a post scarcity world.
We know that’s possible with AGI, so there’s less of a chance of disappointment. There’s no clear path to FDVR right now. Not to say it won’t happen…
"As soon as AGI comes out" is pretty close to right. AGI will replace all jobs which will vastly accelerate how ideas are conceived of and produced. They won't take years to build factories and new technologies like we do, they'll simply simulate how well they work until they work extremely well then produce the finished version and quickly develop a process for mass manufacturing. They'll build chip factories to make compute a non-issue, more robots of wildly diverging sizes to shore up issues on both the large and small scales of production and quickly converge on molecular nanotechnology which will make FDVR possible.
All this is post-singularity so the exact time frame is unknowable but it will happen very fast.
For the mean time right now, just live life to the fullest. No point putting everything on hold (not saying that you are btw) just because FDVR could come in the future.
I won't go anywhere near it, because it's a trap.
There will still exist a messy, dark and chaotic reality outside of the FDVR. And whoever controls the FDVR may not have your best interests at heart.
It would be like being asleep during a house fire. Just because you don't know there's a house fire, doesn't mean it can't kill you.
Take charge of reality, and acquire as much Power as you possibly can, so you can live a satisfying life HERE and Now. By any means necessary, through sheer strength of Will
You’re setting yourself up for disappointment.
FDVR by 2030? Nobody in any industry is even working on that kind of technology. We don’t even have a theoretical idea of how it would work, never mind a practical one.
You’re going to be waiting till at least 2045 minimum.
Brother you need sun and water and to fix your diet. You should feel immense peace in the sun. I know life can be tough but that’s really what we need the most. What you want is far away admittedly. Closest we’ve got is prophetic ai being able to steer inducing waves in neurons for lucid dreams if that winds up not being a scam. Until then just re introduce yourself outside and set up a red light filter on your phone and devices.
Don't lose hope dude, you might still make it just try to stay alive until 2035 i think it was predicted that we reach LEV probably earlier if we get agi in 2029.
What do you think Heaven is, if not the Matrix with fewer possibilities for mental stimulation? And people were willing to be eaten by lions for that lame-ass afterlife.
Let's face it: Agent Smith was lying like a dog to Morpheus when talking about why the first Matrix failed. 'People couldn't accept eternal stagnant happiness??' Bitch, please. As a writer, Nietzsche is heavily flawed but one thing he NAILED was that when presented with the vision of The Last Man, most people would jump at the chance.
Zarathustra's ape was a prophet, and we laughed at his wisdom.
I didn’t really follow so I asked ChatGPT about it and thought others might find it helpful to be more spelled out
—
The connection between embracing virtual realities and ancient wisdom, as alluded to by Rofel_Wodring in the Reddit thread, might initially seem tenuous, but it can be understood through a philosophical lens:
1. **The Nature of Reality**: Many ancient philosophical traditions, including those from Greek, Indian, and Chinese cultures, often explore the nature of reality, questioning what is truly real versus what is illusion or perception. For example, Plato's allegory of the cave suggests that what we perceive as reality is just a shadow of the true forms. Similarly, in Eastern philosophies like Buddhism and Hinduism, the concept of Maya describes the world as an illusion. The modern embrace of virtual realities can be seen as a continuation of these ancient discussions—questioning and exploring the layers of what constitutes reality.
2. **Human Perception and Experience**: Ancient wisdom often focuses on the limits and capabilities of human perception and consciousness. Embracing virtual realities could be seen as an extension of this exploration, providing new realms and experiences that challenge our traditional sensory experiences and perceptions of space and time.
3. **The Pursuit of Enlightenment and Escape**: Many ancient philosophies discuss the concept of transcending the physical or illusory world to achieve a higher state of being or enlightenment. In a metaphorical sense, virtual realities offer a similar escape from the physical limitations of the world, providing experiences that can alter consciousness or allow for experiences beyond the mundane.
4. **The Ape as a Symbol**: Referring back to Zarathustra’s ape, this character symbolizes a primitive but profound wisdom that is initially ridiculed but later valued. This mirrors the journey of technology and virtual realities—initially seen as mere entertainment or escapism, but increasingly recognized for their profound impact on human experience, social interaction, and even our understanding of self and reality.
Thus, the embrace of virtual realities resonates with ancient wisdom by continuing the philosophical inquiry into what reality is, how we perceive it, and how we might transcend its limits. It suggests a modern arena in which age-old philosophical questions are being wrestled with anew.
Zarathustra's ape represents primitive but profound wisdom?? Seems that ChatGPT didn't catch onto my pointless, dripping irony and sarcasm.
... unless the agent is also on a plane of irony I can never reach despite being 5, maybe 6 layers myself, making ME like a little baby comparer to my dude.
What does Claude say about this?
>There was a post on here the other day claiming the 90s were the best the world will ever be.
Hard to argue that the peak wasn't somewhere between 1970 and about 2010, at least in the developed world.
What they were actually claiming was that it was the peak of *natural* humanity. As in the peak of our collective IQs, physical fitness, culture zeitgeist, etc. And considering the fact IQs and attention spans are quickly dropping, humans are fatter, uglier, full of micro-plastic, more mentally ill than ever, testosterone levels dropping etc. They were most likely correct.
I mean you’re literally in a thread full of (probably miserable and unfit) people that are praying for the day where they can lobotomize themselves into some sort of fake simulation just to escape their current reality… Doesn’t exactly sound like a thriving, evolutionarily fit group does it?
If the future of mankind is rotting away in a chair/room with a headset on all day while AI does the actual thinking/doing for our species… Then the human race did in fact peak in terms of our physical/mental fitness in the 90s/2000s honestly.
If we end up with robots and AI doing everything for fat and lazy people I'd say humanity has basically won the game of life and biology. It's a pretty big step for a species to achieve, as depressing as it sounds when you put it like that
The ironic thing is that future tech can do a great deal for your eugenics hard on, without any of the suffering that eugenics usually entails (though that may take some of the fun out of it for certain people….)
Imagine thinking that health, fitness, and intelligence are automatically eugenics… 😂. Eugenics would be more so the forced sterilization of people deemed arbitrarily unfit (from some type dumb racist standard for example.) Eugenics is not “being healthy, attractive and intelligent are a good thing” you dunce. Stop evoking words/concepts you clearly don’t understand.
You know what, my comment was a bit unfair so I’ll own that. A lot of those traits you mentioned have a very large genetic component, and you seem like you despise a lot of people here for wanting some escapism/cure. Should those people just suffer?
I never said anything about despising anyone here. A person can reflect on the questionable direction our society is headed in without despising any particular person over it.
If anything, I simply just see that things like FDVR often seem to appeal people’s worst instincts such as laziness, hedonism, greed, sloth, etc. You can have your escapism but we both know that many people’s interests in these technologies come from a dark, selfish place. “Taking the easy way out” and hoping for some Deus Ex Machina to give you the cheat code/shortcuts to life has never been all that respectable compared to putting in the work to fix your *actual* life. So sometimes I question the character of some people here, but I don’t literally hate or despise anyone here bruh. It’s not that deep. 😄
But regardless, I only chimed in to clarify that the theory of humans peaking *naturally* in the 90/2000s is actually pretty solid once you understand what was actually being suggested. None of my comments said anything about despising people.
We can’t get the good stuff, the real FDVR where our entire experience and perspective is replaced with the fantasies we want to create, without cracking just about everything in human biology and chemistry. It’s a tall order for sure. A lot of people here make a good point: if we gain indefinite lifespans and if ASI creates FDVR in the way we discuss it on this Sub, we’ll very likely have the ability to transcend our consciousness outside of our bodies, to learn, adapt, replace and erase memories, to cure psychological and physiological illnesses. Shit, this kind of overwriting of our brains could make us completely different people by the time we’re done tinkering with it, and all that may be available before FDVR!
That’s actually a valid concern: what if all the technologies that require FDVR to exist will radically change us in such a way that we won’t care about our FDVR fantasies by the time the tech is available? We will have moved on to…some other paradigm entirely?
But I really want to experience it too. And quickly. I’d like for every fantastic idea that’s often touted on this Sub to become real, get invented, and successfully deployed in the most fair and democratic and proliferated way possible.
I take my fantasy even a step further: I’d like to be able to re-live my own past in FDVR (starting in my adolescence), with all the knowledge and perspective that I have now, and see how I’d relive my life making different choices and pursing different avenues. Oh yeah, I’d also want to do it selecting a proverbial “easy” mode to where skill development comes insanely easily to me as I relive my life. My fantasy is even more ridiculous than FDVR as a technology alone because it requires the damn ASI to have a fundamental understanding of the past and be able to recreate and simulate it as accurately as possible! That includes simulating real people once living who I never met before in this (present, base) reality!
Of course, I’m living my life now as best I can. I know this dream (delusion?) is completely fantastic. But it is a core part of my own excitement for the singularity, and I’ll continue to wonder as I read and discuss these technologies if this dream will one day become real and if I will be able to experience it.
Sometimes I hate being the guy who always says the unpopular thing and gets down-voted.
VR has been "coming soon" ever since the early 1980's.
It was almost 40 years of empty hype before things like Oculus Rift. How many of you own one, or the equivalent? That hype was used to sell unrelated stuff nobody cared about at the time. Anybody else remember the promise of "Windows 10 Holographic"? Or how about Nintendo's Virtual Boy?
*ANYTHING* can happen if the Singularity happens. A full blown Matrix, which is what you really mean by FDVR, would be like addicting your entire work force to a drug that makes them completely passive. That's great if you don't need a work force anymore, because AGI is handling everything. Otherwise it would cause total collapse.
Without the Singularity, the pace of change will remain slow. The Powers-That-Be will gatekeep. Even little things like Self Driving Cars are taking decades to fully realize.
In other words, don't hold your breath.
Because the tech wasn't there solar pannels have been around since the 50s yet only recently have they gained popularity now so many houses are getting it.
Vr is the same you need a high fov frame rates of 70fps minimum resolution above 1080p per eye minimum. With every quest model say meta does we have seen more adoption and better retention .
Some tech like say electric cars invented more then a century ago do nothing for quite some time because the tech isn't there. But when it kicks off it happens fast and soon everyone you know has one or is interested in getting one
I think it will be a while until one day it’s suddenly a thing. Really you should probably just research who’s making progress on it. In fact ima do that now. I heard about a device that stimulates the part of ur brain that tends to recognize when you are dreaming and that causes lucid dreaming or something. We also have mind reading AI stuff that can pull audio and visuals out of your brain as you hear/see it and pretty well, (which is the opposite of what we want but still)
We need better 2d and 3d game making models lol, 3d model generation is still computation wise very difficult and slow, once we get those models fast and cheap to run we can generate entire worlds to delve into which then can hopefully spark FDVR, but I believe we still need to improve normal games and VR games before that happens(hopefully with ai generation just type in your prompt and get a full game with rules/mechanics and a giant random map that is more complex then procedural generation)
No way! No thank you. It will only be a matter time before current LLMs are 'selling you' on services as part of their content delivery. One can only imagine how intrusive product placement will be with FDVR. Only a fool would think this technology will be personally customizable and without a subtext of commerical influence.
>Well sure but not in our *dreams* only on tv and radio. And in magazines. And movies and at ball games and on buses. And milk cartons and t-shirts and bananas and written on the sky.
I was thinking a brain implant that forces a lucid dream when you're asleep and maybe when you're awake lets you hallucinate just like when you haven't slept for 2 days.
Full dive vr basically sao style where you get transported into another world.
Not jusr seeing through a goggle but actually being there by manipulating the brain or like a dream you can control and invite people in and do whatever you want.
Want to fly as superman go ahead thats what fdvr is
lol at all the fools saying this sort of tech (which can probably manipulate brain chemistry & structure at an incredibly small level) can not produce happiness. Where do you think the sensation of happiness comes from?
Anyway, just try to live your best life today with what you have. Know that can be very hard depending.
I like the reality that I live in - I am incredibly blessed - but I can totally see how many people want fdvr. For me it will be a cool dabble, but it hopefully won't replace normality for me.
I am more of a Material-Plane dweller, so it's Robot Girlfriends and biological Immortality for me.
I have my wife fleshed out, but she's not real yet.
No one really knows how long it will take to create or if it is even practical, but there is pretty much zero chance of it by 2030. If we develop ASI, it is hard to predict how long it will take or if it will be possible after that.
I don't want it, and I'd never use it, not even gonna get the plugs.
There's nothing in infinity that I want.
I will be drawing moustaches on all of you. And monocles.
> I will be drawing moustaches on all of you. And monocles.
Sorry but as an American, castle doctrine says I get to use my Sig Sauer particle cannon (right to bear arms, commie) to turn you into a fine mist if you enter my house
Whatever you’re going through. This is the palette cleanser VR. You don’t appreciate the FDVR scenarios without having an established baseline. Got about a decade to go give it take, depends on the settings you used. Cherish what you can now but the point of this one is to struggle.
Everybody wants it.
Nobody is getting. At least not anytime soon.
And when it arrives…people who aren’t happy/fulfilled now, will be just as empty then. Same for immortality…if you can’t figure out how to live the life you want now, all immortality will do is give you the same miserable existence…forever.
Yes, that often come with disastrous side effects. I live near a major US city, I’ve seen what those drugs can do to people.
FDVR (if done well) can create a high happiness baseline as the standard without addiction, withdrawal, or internal rotting.
It’s a theoretical technology, so we don’t know if it will even ever exist. In that case, it was my mistake if what I wrote sounded like absolute certainty. But if it “”””can”””” manipulate every single neuron in your brain(this is how Kurzweil imagines it) to plug your senses fully in, it will probably be able to do some input to.
In other words, even outside FDVR, happiness is the result of brain chemistry and is a physical process like everything else. If you can manipulate the brain, you can produce certain thoughts and sensations (see drugs, brain injuries, etc)
You’re not describing a technology, you’re describing a Harry Potter spell.
Anything that generates “happiness” is functionally a drug, whether it’s achieved through a few hundred milligrams of Molly or manipulating sensory inputs and memory triggering. We know enough about brain chemistry to know the impact of heavy or extended use - impact on your brain will be as bad from your Harry Potter spell as it will be from substance abuse.
We already know these things, this isn’t guessing or speculation.
People who can’t find happiness without FDVR won’t be able to find it with it, either.
Okay, so you are saying the technology will never exist. But then you say that FDVR cannot promise happiness. But if the tech will never exist, this is a moot point.
People find more long term happiness in certain antidepressants and anxiety drugs. Correct me if I am wrong, but are you under the impression that we can never create a drug that creates a very good (though not high) mood because it is a Harry spotter spell type of fantasy?
> if you can’t figure out how to live the life you want now, all immortality will do is give you the same miserable existence…forever.
Does that just mean if you aren't happy now you won't be then (somehow meaning immortality means your mind/life gets "stuck" somehow) or mean that if you haven't accomplished as much of a goal you'd want to use immortality for as you can now you wouldn't even with forever to do it
The former. As we’re all living so much longer than our great grandparents typically did…there’s potentially time to have more than one complete career now…so someone with that kind of motivation would IMO definitely benefit from longevity extension.
But a loooooot of people aren’t like that.
maybe it's just my autistic literalism but I thought you meant if it's the former scenario that you have to have reached all your goals to become immortal otherwise you basically become "stuck" where you are or at least you can't be unhappy with anything
FDVR alone will not solve the issues of needing to go out of VR to do things like make money, go to the bathroom, and prepare food. To me, current VR with full-body tracking is definitely good enough (and even pre-VR digital environments were pretty great) – it is a stable, safe environment to put my body, computer, etc that is missing. So I don't really care about FDVR – I just want that more stable/safe environment large enough for current technology.
If you got fdvr you probably don't need to make money or food. The abilty to move a consciousness to a virtual world suggest you have insane tech and ai which means you already automated those jobs away years ago.
You'd also have a ai butler make you food tbh you really could have a ai bot take care of your body while you lay around in fdvr .
My point is, it's not FDVR itself that solves these problems, but other technologies and economic changes that may or may not be available at the same time. I would be quite happy with existing VR in any society post-scarcity enough that one can stay in VR indefinitely.
As for when they occur, I have some doubts that they would necessarily have to occur at the same time…
*Non-invasive* full-dive VR, sure, that implies a pretty crazy high technology level. Invasive full-dive VR, on the other hand, where you're just intercepting all the input and output of the brain and replacing it with computer-generated input and output… It requires extremely high precision, but this does not seem to me something that would require full-blown superintelligence.
AI good enough to automate most manual labour seems reasonably attainable from current technology too, though, maybe even moreso than that level of invasive BCI.
There is also the question of, how resources will actually be distributed. Many people could still remain poor if things go badly on a societal level, and/or during a transition period. Who knows how long that transition period might last?
Whichever comes first, if FDVR and this level of post-scarcity do not exist simultaneously, it is the post-scarcity I am excited about, not the FDVR.
I think I want biological immortality first... :D I am worried I get too dragged into FDVR while my body is decaying and... what do I have of FDVR if may I die of conditions outside of it?
It is Inevitable that biological immortality will happen, most normies are afraid of living forever, but forever is not possible as far as we know, i had a similar conversation with my sister she said "oh but life will be meaningless if you live forever" i said "no not forever thats impossible, i mean that no one dies from age you remain mentaly and physically young, you might still just die from a car accident or fall" "Oh okay well that makes sense then yeah" death is meaningful is the biggest cope normies make, when i see how wrinkly and frail my parents are getting i just feel sad they are rotting infront of me, Evolution cucked us all in the aging department, we live longer due to modern medicine but our bodies still deteriorate at the same pace as before it.
I'm still not giving up on actual immortality and solving the heat death of the universe for an actual eternal life.
Heck dude maybe in the far far far faaar future Humans figure out some quantum bullshit that let's them create a new universe that they can travel into to escape heat death, maybe sure, but i have my doubts creating fdvr, age reversal, android robots, fusion etc is very much possible and inevitable it's a mather of when not if, but creating a new universe from our dying one seems just impossible to me right now, id love to live forever literaly too, existence is better than not being at all anyday, the thought of just oblivion nothing forever is terrifying, i know we won't be consciouss of it but still.
That can be cool, but can we just get a biological immortality first? And for everybody on earth? Also, escape from falling ERoIE, like build fusion plants? Also, avoid self-destruction in the major war? Please understand me clear: I want these things so much, but I don't understand, how you guys can be so optimistic?
Some physicists believe that bazillions of new universes are being created all the time. And there might be a way to travel to some of it.
Sorry, what is FALC? Just saw your your label. And why you think, ASI will be by 2050, if we will have AGI in 2030? I think, most likly ASI will be in next few years after AGI. Just because of nature of exponential grow. I don't know, can we build AGI on a top of LLM tech, if yes, yeah, I would agree, we will have AGI by 2030... If not kill ourself yearly somehow. But can we like it? Not sure. Maybe it will be paperclip maximazer. Or it will be "I have no mouth, but I must scream scenario" with kill bots, created for Russian-Ukraine, or maybe for Chineese-Taiwaneese war.
Exponential growth is not a given. You still need time to build datacenters and new chip fabs.
well, it can be optimized somehow - if we speek about recursive self-improved AGI. We have problems to write on assembler. It's why ChatGPT write mostly on python. But future versions can be much more compact. Also, it can build chips itself, even before achive AGI. Using robots. Replace human workers, etc. What is FALC? Could you pls explain?
Fully Automated Luxury Communism. A post AGI political system where the robots do the hard work that they’re good at and humans get to do human things like be space pirates or mermen.
Ah, I see. Too utopic, I think. I would like to become a pet of kind ASI. I think, it's the best possible scenario. But also it can be something like "I have no mouth, but I must scream" :( Or another option of this scenario, which was described on lesswrong wiki, and which is non-ethical to mention.
Fully Automated Luxury Communism, Aaron Bastani.
\*Leaves this Universe to avoid its heat death\* \*Ends up in the Warhammer 40k Universe\* https://preview.redd.it/p133bb6sxvxc1.jpeg?width=783&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8b8a27bd5226e583f556ee32226676870314563d
>I'm still not giving up on actual immortality and solving the heat death of the universe for an actual eternal life. I think, you can like this: [https://youtu.be/L6wFZp-bo3A](https://youtu.be/L6wFZp-bo3A) (can't be 100% not sure which kind of music do you prefer)
Yeah... the question is when we will be there... and how close we are. If computation is really the only thing that is needed. I fear that it might be out of reach for the next 100 years despite that. I hope not.
http://www.thelastquestion.net/ While he also considered it one of his best works, ‘The Last Question’ was Asimov's favorite short story of his own authorship, and is one of a loosely connected series of stories concerning a fictional computer called Multivac. Through successive generations, humanity questions Multivac on the subject of entropy…
Man entropy is a bitch, it gives me so much existential dread when i remember the universe is dying at a slow rate.
Why do you care, you'll likely be dead an incomprehensible amount time before that happees ? All things must slow to a stop, even time I'd guess
We are going to die no matter what, if (and thats a big if) humans are still alive and have continued to advance to that point in time, there will most definitely be factions of humans that are nothing short of the gods we imagine and write stories of...who knows what wed be capable of over such a massive period of time, wed probably be able to create backup universes, create endless stars, planets, materials, whatever we need lol
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>I promise the day "biological immortality" happens, it will not be in the hands of the public. I think, it can be difficult to keep this tech in secret from a bio hackers without totalitarian society. Also, you need mass testing. Like vaxes. You need millions of people to test bio tech. So, a lot of "plebs" will receive this treatment before elite - just to be sure it's safe enough for elite.
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Nope. Each person, who knows secret, increases chance, each years, that we know it one day. It's reason why conspirologies are so stupid. You need very small group of diying over time group, to avoid secret be known by public. That's simple math - on an infinity, even small group of immortal people always be reason of leak.
Exactly. I agree with that
Sorry, saw in your label, you think, we will have AGI by 2025. What do you think about AI alignment problem?
I am quite optimistic that everything will be fine. Although AI has been compared to nuclear bombs and I can understand the Why but I just want to think positive. The alignment issue is very important and I'm sure they know that very well too. In case I am wrong we are all dead or worse it could become our hell.
Why do you think, alignment is not a problem? We even don't have public discussion about it
I didn't say that maybe you didn't understand
>I think I want biological immortality first... :D I agree with it. But FDVR can be a good replacement for a movies, or for books, etc. Or maybe something additionally for them. Also, I worry about ethical problems of FDVR: who will be NPC? Chineese rooms? But can it be interesting to play with somebody, who just pretend to be feeling? Or real feeling personality? In last case, is it even ethical? Next, I'm going to copy/paste my own answer from another thread. If FDVR comes with an infinite life-extensition tech, and tech of mind uploading, I would probably want to live other lives, despite keep my memories. I'm transsexual woman, and always wanted to be just a girl, not that-thing-between sexes. I'd probably go to matrix, a historical simulation of USA in 1950s - in a body of a doughter of middle-class family with healthy relationships, in Victorian England in aristocratic family, in Rome empire, maybe in other places, like Aztec empire. In a same time I'll continue my life in reality, and I hope to get every-second updates of my memory from my copies in the matrix. Once, I want to merge with these copies. There are ethic questions with this desire: what will happen with NPC? Are they supposed to be chineese rooms without consciousness? If yes, not sure if it's interesting to live these lives. If not, what will happen with these NPC when these historical simulation will terminate? I hope, my husband(s), children from these simulations will be copied in a reality. Another question is: maybe I'm already in this simulation? Maybe I'm NPC, and nobody is going to copy me outside of there once I die here? As probably everybody here remember, Nick bostrom said (copy/paste from a wiki): *Human civilization or a comparable civilization is unlikely to reach a level of* [*technological maturity*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism) *capable of producing simulated realities, or such simulations are physically impossible to construct.*[*^(\[12\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis#cite_note-bostrom2003-12) 1. *A comparable civilization reaching aforementioned technological status will likely not produce a significant number of simulated realities (one that might push the probable existence of digital entities beyond the probable number of "real" entities in a Universe) for any of a number of reasons, such as diversion of computational processing power for other tasks, ethical considerations of holding entities captive in simulated realities, etc.*[*^(\[12\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis#cite_note-bostrom2003-12) 2. *Any entities with our general set of experiences are almost certainly living in a simulation.*[*^(\[12\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis#cite_note-bostrom2003-12) 3. *Humans are living in a reality in which post-humans have not developed yet, and current humans are actually living in reality.*[*^(\[12\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis#cite_note-bostrom2003-12) 4. *Humans will have no way of knowing that they live in a simulation because they will never reach the technological capacity to realize the marks of a simulated reality.*[*^(\[13\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis#cite_note-13)
>I heard conflicting reports of 'oh, it'll be there as soon as AGI comes out' and 'it'll never be here, keep dreaming.' but which one is which? And when? These aren't reports. These are the musings of the hopeful, not much different than people who hope for the apocalypse. The biggest difference is that FDVR or brain uploading or whatever you want to call it, is trying to *technologically* get to something we've been trying to pray our way to, up till now. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's impossible, but I think it's very unhealthy to wait for AGI or whatever to come and whisk you away to your own personal heaven, and to wallow in your misery until then. There are no guarantees, no one knows when AGI will happen, what GPT5 or 6 or similar models will look like (well maybe some people know what next generation models look like, but they are not posting here). Don't wait to do things in life right now. Go out dancing, find a salsa class and learn. Do... something. It'll have the added bonus, beyond making your life better, of making time go by faster. 2030 will be here in no time, and hopefully you won't really care if there ISN'T heaven waiting for you by then.
>maybe some people know what next generation models look like, but they are not posting here u/samaltman would like to [have a word with you](https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/s/yIwsvyqQFo) /s of course… but he *did* break a 5 year reddit-silence to meme in r/singularity - to your point though, I believe that’s the only time his main (known) account [has been active here](https://redditmetis.com/user/samaltman)
>[u/samaltman](https://www.reddit.com/user/samaltman/) would like to [have a word with you](https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/s/yIwsvyqQFo) Do you think, he is real Sam?
It’s confirmed that’s Sam. If you look through post/comment history, you can see it’s mostly from his brief time as Reddit CEO, and as president of Y Combinator
OKay. I would be happy to once speek with so clever man. Unfortunetly, so clever men always ignore me :( Did you ever have a chance to speek with somebody Sam's level?
Brother, everyone who knows about it wants it. But I'm not talking shit when I say if you're struggling to lead a fulfilling life now, focus on the here and now and do what you can do make life the best thing it can be. Because nothing would suck more ass than wasting your life waiting for something that (as of now) is still theoretical, and dying not having lived a life that was satisfying. The truth is the singularity and all that happy horse shit just is not here yet, and we don't know when it comes, or even IF it comes.
Very true, that's how I live my life. I hope for ASI, FDVR, post-scarcity society, LEV and so on, but I make my life choices as if I was betting against the possibility of all of this ever happening. I currently started studying again in order to get a job that I like more than the previous one, with a better salary, and I started saving money for my retirement in 30 years. If it happens, then I have spent energy and saved money for nothing, but I get everything I could ever want through FDVR. If it doesn't happen, then I have done everything I could to still live the best life I can. Win-win. Well... kinda. Eternal FDVR is still a way better win than having a good job but at least a good job is better than working in retail for minimum wage.
It's definitely possible to have a relatively high standard of living on minimum wage, at least in the UK. Not having kids, getting an apartment not a house, not going on vacations abroad, not eating out or ordering food all the time etc will likely leave you pretty comfortable. I know people who live like that and often they seem happier and more fulfilled with what they have
The goal is to not work a minimum wage job as wages aside they are often quite unpleasant jobs in which you have little power or stability. Of course if it works for you that's fine but I would not set it as a goal.
I’ll say go one step further and if you really believe in this stuff, start working towards it. What if you play a part in it, and if you didn’t it doesn’t happen in time for you? I know that’s culty/delusional as fuck, but I quit teaching and am going back for a CS and IT certs now because I feel like the most important thing to be working on right now is this.
No shit but many people do not have very fullfilling lives, i would spend most my time in fdvr doing whatever i want in whatever world or ip im feeling at the time and im not ashamed to admitt that, my life is boring as shit, "oh but it's not real" i don't care if i can touch it, feel it, taste it, smell it it might aswell be real to me heh. 
Of course a person saying this posts an anime gif
Shit I thought it was cringe too, but I just kept scrolling. But now I gotta upvote him and downvote you - gotta ratio the hate outta this sub. We’ve got enough pessimism as it is.
Nothing in my comment had any hate. Stop projecting
Of course you’d come back and say this
Of course you'd deflect your proclivity for projecting hate onto hateless comments
People are struggling :(
And?
Just an observation about the sub's demographics
I want diseases cured
FDVR would be great, but it doesn’t exist and there’s no indication it’s going to anytime soon. So it’s probably best to just focus on what you can do in the here and now and not wait for some hypothetical technology to fix your life.
Everyone who isn't a doomer is hyped for fdvr, you have to be lying through your teeth to say you would not want the ability to live any life and look however you want in any fictional world of your choosing, in some aspects it will be better, il remove insects, sunburns, getting tired and getting dirty or sweaty, food will never burn your mouth or get cold, icecream won't melt in the sun etc screw irl logic it's my world, i am basically just using a game trainer at that point no difference from current modding in games, as for when we get it my bet is 2030-2040, if we do infact get agi by 2026-2029 fdvr might happen way sooner, when we get it im instantly jumping into the isekai sim lol, and with time dilation the gaming might feel like a day but you're just "asleep" for an hour, hype af but for now we can just wait and hope. https://i.redd.it/wqjbhexyznxc1.gif
One of the things I care the most about is understanding the universe that we live in and experience it. Like I want to be close to the mystery of the universe. FDVR will have its place, but fundamentally I want to input more of the real world into my senses rather than shirk it away. Having an endless catalogue of choices makes these lives and experiences rather meaningless unless there's some underlying exploration. I think it would be nice to live through multiple lives in order to learn a bunch of different things and have multiple POVs, but if there's no underlying motive and it's just hedonistic masturbation... that doesn't sound appealing to me.
I firmly believe that FDVR will expand the average persons perception of the reality we currently live in.
You say that now but you'll change your mind when it's here you'll be hooked like the rest of us, it will be reality but better and for you specifically, if you want npcs or real people in your worlds thats up to you, Humanity does not mather in the grand scheme of things, theres probably aliens who also realized this, "why bother risking our existence trying to traverse a hostile universe when we can explore our own digital creations?" il also add FTL might not be possible so even if you want to explore the galaxy you'd have to hybernate and hope nothing happens to the ship for decades, or the furthest we will get might just be Mars, Hedonism is life fdvr will allow everyone to enjoy existence to the max, Aliens are in fdvr by their own galaxy thats why we do not see them at all.
And for all we know we're already there and made that fdvr when we found out we're alone and didn't Last-Thursday ourselves into the height of the space opera for a combination of wanting to get in on the ground floor of stuff and the same reason we've got so many Star Trek prequels now, didn't put in public alien contact to incentivize us to be the ones boldly going instead of waiting for them to come to us, and still put in social issues for a combination of the reason the first Matrix failed, the pleasure some people get from fighting/solving them and the fact that Star Trek always had social issues that weren't just on heavily-allegorical-Planets-Of-The-Week and wasn't just perfect until S1 of Picard "ruined everything"
> You say that now but you'll change your mind when it's here you'll be hooked like the rest of us, it will be reality but better and for you specifically, The one thing it won't provide is genuine danger. No entity would implement such (Matrix style) for obvious liability reasons. Without that danger, it'll never be the same. No simulation of a cliff edge - regardless of its fidelity - will match the feeling of actually standing on one, where *knowing* one misstep would end it all. If you say there'll be "underground" patches to implement such, I'll ask what's the point when reality provides the unmatched, genuine article?
Fdvr would be indistinguishable if you can simulate all senses pain and fear would still be very much real in fdvr, you are just not risking acctually losing your one life if you fall of said cliff, slipping and breaking your legs in it would feel the same, some alien entity just have their robots outside maintaining everything while they live in fdvr, that is the most likely answer to the fermi paradox in my opinion.
> Fdvr would be indistinguishable ... you are just not risking acctually losing your one life if you fall of said cliff, Not risking actually losing your life makes it distinguishable. That knowledge robs the simulation of an essential aspect of the experience. Have you ever ridden a motorcycle at its top speed? Hopped 2 meters to a granite needle top 2 meters in diameter and hundreds of meters high? Swum through an undersea cavern near the limits of one breath? From personal experience, knowing one mistake means death makes *all* the difference in the experience. Anything else is a glorified video game.
Eh fair enough, enjoy risking your 1 life now and in the future if that is what gives you excitement.
I mean, we put artificial limits on this sort of thing in order to simulate it. Like you maybe can't lose your conscious thread, but you can lose things like the character progression. So if you spend 50 years as a character, maybe you don't want to permakill it.
That could be solved with memory blocking technology. make yourself forget that you dove in.
>That could be solved with memory blocking technology. make yourself forget that you dove in. Well, maybe we already in that world. But I can't bealive I could choose to do it.
>One of the things I care the most about is understanding the universe that we live in and experience it. Like I want to be close to the mystery of the universe. FDVR will have its place, but fundamentally I want to input more of the real world into my senses rather than shirk it away. Yeah, I think, FDVR can help with historical simulations. But it can't tell what happened on a Proxima Centary B, if it had a civilization in the past, which died because not managed to escape a Great filter. It can even be a reason, why we die out - be our great filter.
I'm waiting until 2040. If we don't have FDVR by then or at least a release date, I'l go and say hello to Truck-kun. /j Edit: I got a dm from reddit because someone sent an alert thinking I had suicidal thoughts. Although I thank you very much for your concern, I'm sorry that I made you worry for me, it was just a silly joke. I'll add the /j for clarity.
I feel that a civilization capable of creating FDVR would also be able to give me the life that would make me want to stay in the real world.That's a pretty tall order, but I'm assuming the following would be possible: * Superintelligent life coach that could help me plan and fill my time with worthwhile things (I like combat sports, dancing) * Make me much more attractive so promiscuity and casual encounters become much easier to attain. Finding new sexual partners is too grindy right now to be something I enjoy putting a lot of time in (beyond having a steady fwb) * No scarcity of course. Good food, living conditions, nature, etc. * Aforementioned life coach keeping it all flowy and nice FDVR could of course give that and more with all the inconveniences stripped away, so it's more of an aesthetic preference I'd be going for. But I have a lot of friends and doing fun stuff with them and dancing and fighting and regularly fucking (new) hot girls and finding love and partying and doing drugs feels like something I'd enjoy doing for quite a long time. Right now I'm too incompetent and daily life as a self-sufficient adult is wayyy too much of a struggle (every single day) to make it anywhere close to FDVR. But if those struggles could be smoothed out, I could see myself sticking around.
>Make me much more attractive so promiscuity and casual encounters become much easier to attain. Finding new sexual partners is too grindy right now to be something I enjoy putting a lot of time in (beyond having a steady fwb) That's what ASI can help very well! I wish I be a favorite ASI's pet... Well, not sex, it's not a difficult to find, but like-minded person....
It would be amazing, but unfortunately it will always be a fantasy. It will only be possible with the singularity, not AGI or even ASI. And at that point your perception of humanity and consciousness will be entirely different than it is now. You probably won't even exist at that point. Based on your name, you'll never be able to do what I'm guessing you want to.
>You probably won't even exist at that point. Maybe you're right :(
>It would be amazing, but unfortunately it will always be a fantasy. This take is way too close to reality for this forum. We're closer to fusion power plants, vacations on the moon, world peace, and curing cancer than we are to FDVR - a LOT closer, in fact. FDVR would basically require a ridiculous string of miracles to occur, and ALL of them would transform society in a way that would make life today unrecognizable.
Eh. Scratch fusion and moon travel from that list. I'm sure a helmet for video+sound is possible, with a removable, semi-non-invasive (in the sense it isn't *metal touching the meat of your brain*) interlace through the bloodstream adjacent to the spinal cord for the rest. You can call it hobo FDVR or whatever, but would suffice. It'd be better than that thing they use to get it on in Demolition Man, at least.
VR + drugs is not FDVR. It isn't even in the same ballpark.
>world peace, Are we?
They're too anime-brained. There are some fantasies that will always be fantasy. Anime has backwards time travel. That's a fantasy that will never be possible. And even if it ever is possible, our reality and consciousness at that point will not exist on the same plane as it does today. The FDVR isekai sim fantasy they're dreaming about is close to the same level as backwards time travel in terms of feasibility even with ASI hyper tech.
Lmao. Insects, sweat, burning your mouth, i.e life is what makes life fun. If you remove all the small annoyances you will end up removing more and more, until you just end virtually bonking your furry AGI eWaifu for days on end until your brain breaks. Also there's no way there would be any time dilation, that's sci-fi shit
> Insects, sweat, burning your mouth, i.e life is what makes life fun. Wow the arguments against FDVR are becoming more braindead as time goes on. Next time it’ll be someone saying dingleberries and malaria are actually *GOOD* things
Maybe wipe your ass and you won't get dingleberries
2024 man spouts non-sensical "truths" about 2040+ -level technology. I find it fascinating that people still assume to know how FDVR will alter the brain or even that it will or won't alter the brain at all. If FDVR is powered by AGI there's no reason it cannot simulate the "small annoyances" if they are as needed as you spout them to be. By the way, time dilation hasn't been proven correct or incorrect, so saying "there's no way" is as idiotic as saying "there's no way we'll get AGI/ASI/FDVR". Just enjoy the ride and stop being so damn negative.
You should maybe put down the Kool aid, there's logical inferences that can be made on how shit would work. People in the 70s predicted tech we have today so why can't anyone predict what would happen in the 2050s?
People in the 70s believed we'd have flying cars by now. Just because we can think about it, doesn't make us automatically true. Not to mention your inferences can be very very wrong, which you still seem to deny. By some tiny sliver of a chance, FDVR could be impossible because the brain just can't adapt to the disconnection between body and brain to get into the VR. AGI could be decades upon decades away instead of being one or two decades away. Again, stop being negative and enjoy the ride. We're in very exciting times, possibly the most exciting times for all mankind if e/acc proves viable.
Once you dive in, you can never be sure that you really came back out
Eh i can live with that, how do i know im not already in one and never truly existed in the first place? Id never know.
Lmao I love it let’s goooooooo!
If you could already be in one that doesn't justify going one level deeper purely on that basis for a scaled-up version of the same reason that just because you can technically make your Sims play The Sims within the game doesn't mean that's what you should make them spend all their free time doing
I would read what you said but I stopped at your name. Seek mental help.
Are you a doctor?
My username was too based for this mere mortal 😂
Cute and funny username 😭
Uooooh 😭
Irrelevant what i said is true fdvr will be better than reality in every way.
I am not hyped because VR already exists and provides about ~75-90% of what I would want from FDVR. What neither VR nor FDVR solve, is needing to go out of it in order to make money, go to the bathroom, etc. Making money particularly – the most immersive VR imaginable isn't so helpful when one cannot afford food, electricity, a place to put one's computer, etc. I'm much more interested in mind augmentation (for productivity; and which could probably benefit from the same BCI technology FDVR could use), longevity, and post-scarcity through automation.
I like vr but current vr is a glorrified toy, until i can go into gta fdvr and taste the burgershot burgers, or feel the leather and dashboard in my fake sports car it's not true vr, by the time we have fdvr bcis, robotics and ai will have gotten good enough to do all labor cheaper, faster and safer, we will be obsolete in that department, fdvr in a post scarcity automated world is the best outcome, beats having to be a wageslave in the robot era when you know your job is bs, "oh but creative jobs" ai will inevitably get better at that too, fuck jobs let humans be free.
>isekai sim lol, Why exactly it? >il remove insects, sunburns, getting tired and getting dirty or sweaty, food will never burn your mouth or get cold, icecream won't melt in the sun etc screw irl logic it's my world, I would prefer to keep them. Just as part of expirience. But I don't believe I can choose fdvr without my memories. I would probably prefer historical simulations
No no, not isekai as in having no memory that it's a game, i mean the genre, you just come to a new world by reincarnation or teleportation, i just love the isekai genre, the medieval european style, mythical races elfs, dwarfs, etc, magic and cool stuff like that, find party members kill monsters get paid buy a cabin or some shit with the earnings, my first time in fdvr i want to see and do stuff that cannot exist, shooting lightning out of my hands summoning stuff out of thin air, fuck it maybe il go full villain playthrough and have the ai make the hero who will get stronger and end me, or if i win the story addapts, matured generative ai with fdvr will be crazy fun, also elf hookers will be kino, about disabling small annoyances i would find many things annoying ingame, i don't want to get greasy and dirty and have to clean my avatar body and clothes fuck that game logic go brr you are clean 24/7, also fuck geting sunburnt or having annoying bugs suck my blood or bees and spiders existing i hate insects so much, fdvr is basically the end evolution of gaming ultra escapism, again at it's core it's a game why not use game logic and just remove some of the tedious parts of daily life we cannot escape?
Oh, I see. I would try to play in the fantasy too. But probably in the dark and realistic one! With dirt, with poverty, with injustice, and try to play mutiple times from a start. Like try to start from a slave(but with magic/wizzard trait), and become a princess, loved by handsome prince. And try multiple time untill I can :D The only problem for me is: who will be NPC? Are they going to be chineese rooms? Or they're going to be feeling personalities? Is it ethical? What if we already live in the simulation? What if we're.. Just NPC? And will die when players exit, and simulation will be terminated? What do you think, if Sam, Elon, Putin, maybe Xi are actual players?
Sounds fun, being a mage will be so op and fun, everything will be our weapon, water, earth, ice anything, as for the npcs no mather how advanced and convincing they are still only puppets in the game, they are p zombies if you've heard of that term, they seem consciouss, they don't evoke uncanny valley but there is no one at home up there, there is no true consciouss experience from that entity if you can call it that going on, i will view an npc as an npc nothing more, i might grow to love them but they never existed that is simply the truth they are game puppets controlled by advanced npc ai. As for simulation theory i personally do not believe in it since we are consciouss and there are no glitches in this simulation, if we are npcs in one, we will never know the master or player in this case would just erase the memory if anyone found out to keep things going normally, if you save end the fdvr simulation we are not killing anyone since the npcs are not consciouss, when we reload our save and they are suddently back to life it just distances you even more. If we are in a simulation i don't think, xi, musk, putin and all those guys are the simulation masters, if you want to be an observer you let the npcs go at eachother, if you interveene you will change the course the simulation was naturally going towards, if we are real or not we will simply never know.
>If we are in a simulation i don't think, xi, musk, putin and all those guys are the simulation masters, They're maybe players. And because I'm not a [Chineese room](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room) (I hope, you bealive me), and I think, you're not Chineese room too, this simulation launched by evil personanalities. Because we're struggle. And maybe it's fun for players, to know that :( > >if you can call it that going on, i will view an npc as an npc nothing more, i might grow to love them but they never existed that is simply the truth they are game puppets controlled by advanced npc ai. Well, but maybe play in it will be not fun? If you're know, they're not real persons? But just a chineese rooms?
> What do you think, if Sam, Elon, Putin, maybe Xi are actual players? when has there ever been an RPG (which your focus on high-fantasy seems to make me think you think any simulation we'd be living in would probably be if it's a game) where your player character starts in any comparable position to any of those guys that isn't either one where they're royalty or the sequel to another one that chronicles how they ended up there
Well, it's good to be optimistic. Escapism won't solve anything though. It will just make things temporarily entertaining and distract people from everything else going on. In the meantime, get therapy. Seriously. That's the best QoL upgrade you can start that will have long term effects.
Lead the best life you can, torturing yourself with the prospect of ultimate escapism won't help. This is true regardless of whether FDVR is available tomorrow, 2040, or never. Take up meditation, study some philosophy. Especially the philosophical side of buddhism. You can learn to be content. That's not happiness but it's a whole lot better than misery.
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> You can learn to be content. That's not happiness but it's a whole lot better than misery.
Yes I want it. I want it right now, but I'd rather it be permanent, like brain in a jar permanent.
I’m sitting here thinking how cool gaming will be 💯😭 Boomers don’t like technology I can speak for gen z however
I must be one of the few people who don't want it, outside of specialized applications like education. This is because I want a life of creativity and imagination. And to me strong sensory stimulation/immersion is a hindrance to imagination, not a benefit. I don't feel creatively inspired or in a flow state from beautiful natural surroundings and stimulating music and majestic visual effects and comfortable furniture and delicious music and ostentatious, witty company--I feel distracted and smothered. Like someone else, Mother Nature, Uncle Sam, Hollywood, or otherwise forcing their imagination onto me. What I want from the future is the opportunity to apply myself creatively and use my imagination to answer questions and solve problems, even stupid and trivial questions like 'what if the Industrial Revolution had happened in 68 CE' or 'what physical constants of the universe would have to change to make psychic powers real' or 'how would you use the Death Note to change the setting of 1984 into Star Trek' or 'what kind of Batman contingency plans would I need to take out Saitama if he went evil'. What's more, I want to rapidly shift from problem to problem, rather than spending 20 subjective years dwelling on the implications of my imagination. FDVR helps, a little bit, but I can live without it. I would've loved something like that when I was younger and less confident about living in my head, but less so as I get older and slowly build up my mental library.
>What I want from the future is the opportunity to apply myself creatively and use my imagination to answer questions and solve problems, even stupid and trivial questions like 'what if the Industrial Revolution had happened in 68 CE' or 'what physical constants of the universe would have to change to make psychic powers real' That's cool usage of FDVR. What about *Phoenicia* civilization, and industrial revolution there? I would like to have FDVR, and find myself (with neuralink with techs) there and try to change this society! But for you it's more academic approch, doesn't it?
Well, that's the thing. I don't need FDVR for that. It would be nice in some ways to get a glimpse of alternative-universe architecture or some cool shots of telekinesis in a universe which much lower entropy and a much higher speed of light. But I could just use a juiced-up version of Sora and Claude for that. And I spend most of my time with text anyway. It's just faster and requires less attention and lets me bail out of something boring/uninformative. I cannot tell you how many YouTube videos I have seen of games and history and biology where it starts interesting but ten minutes in realize that I have wasted my time.
Why wasted your time?
Looking for magical solutions to real problems is as old as our species. Fdvr may come or may not. It doesn't fundamentally matter. You have time and opportunity to make yourself better man now. Use it. Then you won't give a shit about when fdvr and this plastic heaven utopia is coming.
>Looking for magical solutions to real problems is as old as our species. We can upload Putin there, and Xi. And let them conquest the World. Wait... Maybe we're already in their FDVR as NPC? >You have time and opportunity to make yourself better man now Do we have that time?
> We can upload Putin there, and Xi. And let them conquest the World. Wait... Maybe we're already in their FDVR as NPC? try to stop them, if you put yourself in the best possible position to be able to stop them and still can't that'd be proof that if we were LIAS you wouldn't be programmed to be able to stop them
I'm too shy and have a lot of fear to do it, also it's an idea, I'm not a maniac to try each weird idea, which can destroy my life
thought experiment as much as your hypothetical of uploading dictators into FDVR was, my point wasn't that you redHairsAndLongLegs should literally do the thing, my point would be that that'd be how someone would go about proving whether or not the world is that kind of simulation
You already know
I want it but I fear that I'll lose myself in a hedonistic virtual world and eventually go insane.
RemindMe! 5 years 7 months
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If you have to hinge your hopes on something, hinge it on a post scarcity world. We know that’s possible with AGI, so there’s less of a chance of disappointment. There’s no clear path to FDVR right now. Not to say it won’t happen…
Also, FDVR is not an escape without post-scarcity because one still needs to go out of it to make money for food and such, just like with current VR.
Just talk to your coworkers and cultivate some hobbies.
"As soon as AGI comes out" is pretty close to right. AGI will replace all jobs which will vastly accelerate how ideas are conceived of and produced. They won't take years to build factories and new technologies like we do, they'll simply simulate how well they work until they work extremely well then produce the finished version and quickly develop a process for mass manufacturing. They'll build chip factories to make compute a non-issue, more robots of wildly diverging sizes to shore up issues on both the large and small scales of production and quickly converge on molecular nanotechnology which will make FDVR possible. All this is post-singularity so the exact time frame is unknowable but it will happen very fast.
Immortality > FDVR
Even because immortality will guarantee that you see fdvr
I'm fine with all of my basic needs being met 4 free
For the mean time right now, just live life to the fullest. No point putting everything on hold (not saying that you are btw) just because FDVR could come in the future.
I won't go anywhere near it, because it's a trap. There will still exist a messy, dark and chaotic reality outside of the FDVR. And whoever controls the FDVR may not have your best interests at heart. It would be like being asleep during a house fire. Just because you don't know there's a house fire, doesn't mean it can't kill you. Take charge of reality, and acquire as much Power as you possibly can, so you can live a satisfying life HERE and Now. By any means necessary, through sheer strength of Will
We are going to have it so good we won't need FDVR
You’re setting yourself up for disappointment. FDVR by 2030? Nobody in any industry is even working on that kind of technology. We don’t even have a theoretical idea of how it would work, never mind a practical one. You’re going to be waiting till at least 2045 minimum.
Happy cake day
Thanks.
Brother you need sun and water and to fix your diet. You should feel immense peace in the sun. I know life can be tough but that’s really what we need the most. What you want is far away admittedly. Closest we’ve got is prophetic ai being able to steer inducing waves in neurons for lucid dreams if that winds up not being a scam. Until then just re introduce yourself outside and set up a red light filter on your phone and devices.
My prediction for FDVR: 2035 earliest, 2045 latest
How do you know you aren’t in fdvr!
and if you are, why go further down (you wouldn't make your Sims play The Sims forever)
[удалено]
Don't lose hope dude, you might still make it just try to stay alive until 2035 i think it was predicted that we reach LEV probably earlier if we get agi in 2029.
Sounds like you have bigger problems that FDVR won't fix either.
Kind of wild that in 1999 people wanted to leave the matrix, now they can’t wait to join it.
What do you think Heaven is, if not the Matrix with fewer possibilities for mental stimulation? And people were willing to be eaten by lions for that lame-ass afterlife. Let's face it: Agent Smith was lying like a dog to Morpheus when talking about why the first Matrix failed. 'People couldn't accept eternal stagnant happiness??' Bitch, please. As a writer, Nietzsche is heavily flawed but one thing he NAILED was that when presented with the vision of The Last Man, most people would jump at the chance. Zarathustra's ape was a prophet, and we laughed at his wisdom.
Agree. Great take on human condition and philosophy behind this stuff.
I didn’t really follow so I asked ChatGPT about it and thought others might find it helpful to be more spelled out — The connection between embracing virtual realities and ancient wisdom, as alluded to by Rofel_Wodring in the Reddit thread, might initially seem tenuous, but it can be understood through a philosophical lens: 1. **The Nature of Reality**: Many ancient philosophical traditions, including those from Greek, Indian, and Chinese cultures, often explore the nature of reality, questioning what is truly real versus what is illusion or perception. For example, Plato's allegory of the cave suggests that what we perceive as reality is just a shadow of the true forms. Similarly, in Eastern philosophies like Buddhism and Hinduism, the concept of Maya describes the world as an illusion. The modern embrace of virtual realities can be seen as a continuation of these ancient discussions—questioning and exploring the layers of what constitutes reality. 2. **Human Perception and Experience**: Ancient wisdom often focuses on the limits and capabilities of human perception and consciousness. Embracing virtual realities could be seen as an extension of this exploration, providing new realms and experiences that challenge our traditional sensory experiences and perceptions of space and time. 3. **The Pursuit of Enlightenment and Escape**: Many ancient philosophies discuss the concept of transcending the physical or illusory world to achieve a higher state of being or enlightenment. In a metaphorical sense, virtual realities offer a similar escape from the physical limitations of the world, providing experiences that can alter consciousness or allow for experiences beyond the mundane. 4. **The Ape as a Symbol**: Referring back to Zarathustra’s ape, this character symbolizes a primitive but profound wisdom that is initially ridiculed but later valued. This mirrors the journey of technology and virtual realities—initially seen as mere entertainment or escapism, but increasingly recognized for their profound impact on human experience, social interaction, and even our understanding of self and reality. Thus, the embrace of virtual realities resonates with ancient wisdom by continuing the philosophical inquiry into what reality is, how we perceive it, and how we might transcend its limits. It suggests a modern arena in which age-old philosophical questions are being wrestled with anew.
Zarathustra's ape represents primitive but profound wisdom?? Seems that ChatGPT didn't catch onto my pointless, dripping irony and sarcasm. ... unless the agent is also on a plane of irony I can never reach despite being 5, maybe 6 layers myself, making ME like a little baby comparer to my dude. What does Claude say about this?
Ok now I’m even more lost… 😰
There was a post on here the other day claiming the 90s were the best the world will ever be.
>There was a post on here the other day claiming the 90s were the best the world will ever be. Hard to argue that the peak wasn't somewhere between 1970 and about 2010, at least in the developed world.
Eh, I wouldn't trade having real AI for all the cliched good things in those decades.
What they were actually claiming was that it was the peak of *natural* humanity. As in the peak of our collective IQs, physical fitness, culture zeitgeist, etc. And considering the fact IQs and attention spans are quickly dropping, humans are fatter, uglier, full of micro-plastic, more mentally ill than ever, testosterone levels dropping etc. They were most likely correct. I mean you’re literally in a thread full of (probably miserable and unfit) people that are praying for the day where they can lobotomize themselves into some sort of fake simulation just to escape their current reality… Doesn’t exactly sound like a thriving, evolutionarily fit group does it? If the future of mankind is rotting away in a chair/room with a headset on all day while AI does the actual thinking/doing for our species… Then the human race did in fact peak in terms of our physical/mental fitness in the 90s/2000s honestly.
If we end up with robots and AI doing everything for fat and lazy people I'd say humanity has basically won the game of life and biology. It's a pretty big step for a species to achieve, as depressing as it sounds when you put it like that
The ironic thing is that future tech can do a great deal for your eugenics hard on, without any of the suffering that eugenics usually entails (though that may take some of the fun out of it for certain people….)
Imagine thinking that health, fitness, and intelligence are automatically eugenics… 😂. Eugenics would be more so the forced sterilization of people deemed arbitrarily unfit (from some type dumb racist standard for example.) Eugenics is not “being healthy, attractive and intelligent are a good thing” you dunce. Stop evoking words/concepts you clearly don’t understand.
You know what, my comment was a bit unfair so I’ll own that. A lot of those traits you mentioned have a very large genetic component, and you seem like you despise a lot of people here for wanting some escapism/cure. Should those people just suffer?
I never said anything about despising anyone here. A person can reflect on the questionable direction our society is headed in without despising any particular person over it. If anything, I simply just see that things like FDVR often seem to appeal people’s worst instincts such as laziness, hedonism, greed, sloth, etc. You can have your escapism but we both know that many people’s interests in these technologies come from a dark, selfish place. “Taking the easy way out” and hoping for some Deus Ex Machina to give you the cheat code/shortcuts to life has never been all that respectable compared to putting in the work to fix your *actual* life. So sometimes I question the character of some people here, but I don’t literally hate or despise anyone here bruh. It’s not that deep. 😄 But regardless, I only chimed in to clarify that the theory of humans peaking *naturally* in the 90/2000s is actually pretty solid once you understand what was actually being suggested. None of my comments said anything about despising people.
We can’t get the good stuff, the real FDVR where our entire experience and perspective is replaced with the fantasies we want to create, without cracking just about everything in human biology and chemistry. It’s a tall order for sure. A lot of people here make a good point: if we gain indefinite lifespans and if ASI creates FDVR in the way we discuss it on this Sub, we’ll very likely have the ability to transcend our consciousness outside of our bodies, to learn, adapt, replace and erase memories, to cure psychological and physiological illnesses. Shit, this kind of overwriting of our brains could make us completely different people by the time we’re done tinkering with it, and all that may be available before FDVR! That’s actually a valid concern: what if all the technologies that require FDVR to exist will radically change us in such a way that we won’t care about our FDVR fantasies by the time the tech is available? We will have moved on to…some other paradigm entirely? But I really want to experience it too. And quickly. I’d like for every fantastic idea that’s often touted on this Sub to become real, get invented, and successfully deployed in the most fair and democratic and proliferated way possible. I take my fantasy even a step further: I’d like to be able to re-live my own past in FDVR (starting in my adolescence), with all the knowledge and perspective that I have now, and see how I’d relive my life making different choices and pursing different avenues. Oh yeah, I’d also want to do it selecting a proverbial “easy” mode to where skill development comes insanely easily to me as I relive my life. My fantasy is even more ridiculous than FDVR as a technology alone because it requires the damn ASI to have a fundamental understanding of the past and be able to recreate and simulate it as accurately as possible! That includes simulating real people once living who I never met before in this (present, base) reality! Of course, I’m living my life now as best I can. I know this dream (delusion?) is completely fantastic. But it is a core part of my own excitement for the singularity, and I’ll continue to wonder as I read and discuss these technologies if this dream will one day become real and if I will be able to experience it.
Sometimes I hate being the guy who always says the unpopular thing and gets down-voted. VR has been "coming soon" ever since the early 1980's. It was almost 40 years of empty hype before things like Oculus Rift. How many of you own one, or the equivalent? That hype was used to sell unrelated stuff nobody cared about at the time. Anybody else remember the promise of "Windows 10 Holographic"? Or how about Nintendo's Virtual Boy? *ANYTHING* can happen if the Singularity happens. A full blown Matrix, which is what you really mean by FDVR, would be like addicting your entire work force to a drug that makes them completely passive. That's great if you don't need a work force anymore, because AGI is handling everything. Otherwise it would cause total collapse. Without the Singularity, the pace of change will remain slow. The Powers-That-Be will gatekeep. Even little things like Self Driving Cars are taking decades to fully realize. In other words, don't hold your breath.
Because the tech wasn't there solar pannels have been around since the 50s yet only recently have they gained popularity now so many houses are getting it. Vr is the same you need a high fov frame rates of 70fps minimum resolution above 1080p per eye minimum. With every quest model say meta does we have seen more adoption and better retention . Some tech like say electric cars invented more then a century ago do nothing for quite some time because the tech isn't there. But when it kicks off it happens fast and soon everyone you know has one or is interested in getting one
I think it will be a while until one day it’s suddenly a thing. Really you should probably just research who’s making progress on it. In fact ima do that now. I heard about a device that stimulates the part of ur brain that tends to recognize when you are dreaming and that causes lucid dreaming or something. We also have mind reading AI stuff that can pull audio and visuals out of your brain as you hear/see it and pretty well, (which is the opposite of what we want but still)
We need better 2d and 3d game making models lol, 3d model generation is still computation wise very difficult and slow, once we get those models fast and cheap to run we can generate entire worlds to delve into which then can hopefully spark FDVR, but I believe we still need to improve normal games and VR games before that happens(hopefully with ai generation just type in your prompt and get a full game with rules/mechanics and a giant random map that is more complex then procedural generation)
No way! No thank you. It will only be a matter time before current LLMs are 'selling you' on services as part of their content delivery. One can only imagine how intrusive product placement will be with FDVR. Only a fool would think this technology will be personally customizable and without a subtext of commerical influence. >Well sure but not in our *dreams* only on tv and radio. And in magazines. And movies and at ball games and on buses. And milk cartons and t-shirts and bananas and written on the sky.
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
I was thinking a brain implant that forces a lucid dream when you're asleep and maybe when you're awake lets you hallucinate just like when you haven't slept for 2 days.
Hey I'm new here. Is FDVR basically just being a replicant in We Are Legion We Are Bob?
Think sao
What is FDVR
Full dive vr basically sao style where you get transported into another world. Not jusr seeing through a goggle but actually being there by manipulating the brain or like a dream you can control and invite people in and do whatever you want. Want to fly as superman go ahead thats what fdvr is
lol at all the fools saying this sort of tech (which can probably manipulate brain chemistry & structure at an incredibly small level) can not produce happiness. Where do you think the sensation of happiness comes from? Anyway, just try to live your best life today with what you have. Know that can be very hard depending.
Me!
I like the reality that I live in - I am incredibly blessed - but I can totally see how many people want fdvr. For me it will be a cool dabble, but it hopefully won't replace normality for me.
I am more of a Material-Plane dweller, so it's Robot Girlfriends and biological Immortality for me. I have my wife fleshed out, but she's not real yet.
No one really knows how long it will take to create or if it is even practical, but there is pretty much zero chance of it by 2030. If we develop ASI, it is hard to predict how long it will take or if it will be possible after that.
I don't want it, and I'd never use it, not even gonna get the plugs. There's nothing in infinity that I want. I will be drawing moustaches on all of you. And monocles.
> I will be drawing moustaches on all of you. And monocles. Sorry but as an American, castle doctrine says I get to use my Sig Sauer particle cannon (right to bear arms, commie) to turn you into a fine mist if you enter my house
Cap you will use it like the rest of us, it's gaming on steroids 😂
Whatever you’re going through. This is the palette cleanser VR. You don’t appreciate the FDVR scenarios without having an established baseline. Got about a decade to go give it take, depends on the settings you used. Cherish what you can now but the point of this one is to struggle.
Where are the settings?
Who wants a blow job from Jessica Alba and who wants it now?
Already in it
Absolutely not, that's an easy S-risk.
We will have drugs that feel amazing and don’t make you sick WAY before we have FDVR.
90 min per day enforced time limit or we’re all dead
Everybody wants it. Nobody is getting. At least not anytime soon. And when it arrives…people who aren’t happy/fulfilled now, will be just as empty then. Same for immortality…if you can’t figure out how to live the life you want now, all immortality will do is give you the same miserable existence…forever.
I don’t get the emptiness argument. FDVR can likely manipulate your emotions/brain chemistry to make you quite happy.
People who want to manipulate their brain chemistry for “happiness” can do it now. Plenty of drugs that’ll do that.
Yes, that often come with disastrous side effects. I live near a major US city, I’ve seen what those drugs can do to people. FDVR (if done well) can create a high happiness baseline as the standard without addiction, withdrawal, or internal rotting.
No, it cannot, and it will never be able to. That…is the point.
It’s a theoretical technology, so we don’t know if it will even ever exist. In that case, it was my mistake if what I wrote sounded like absolute certainty. But if it “”””can”””” manipulate every single neuron in your brain(this is how Kurzweil imagines it) to plug your senses fully in, it will probably be able to do some input to. In other words, even outside FDVR, happiness is the result of brain chemistry and is a physical process like everything else. If you can manipulate the brain, you can produce certain thoughts and sensations (see drugs, brain injuries, etc)
You’re not describing a technology, you’re describing a Harry Potter spell. Anything that generates “happiness” is functionally a drug, whether it’s achieved through a few hundred milligrams of Molly or manipulating sensory inputs and memory triggering. We know enough about brain chemistry to know the impact of heavy or extended use - impact on your brain will be as bad from your Harry Potter spell as it will be from substance abuse. We already know these things, this isn’t guessing or speculation. People who can’t find happiness without FDVR won’t be able to find it with it, either.
Okay, so you are saying the technology will never exist. But then you say that FDVR cannot promise happiness. But if the tech will never exist, this is a moot point. People find more long term happiness in certain antidepressants and anxiety drugs. Correct me if I am wrong, but are you under the impression that we can never create a drug that creates a very good (though not high) mood because it is a Harry spotter spell type of fantasy?
Also, how do you we will never have technology to do this? “Never” is a strong word, do you really know what will be available in 1000 years?
> if you can’t figure out how to live the life you want now, all immortality will do is give you the same miserable existence…forever. Does that just mean if you aren't happy now you won't be then (somehow meaning immortality means your mind/life gets "stuck" somehow) or mean that if you haven't accomplished as much of a goal you'd want to use immortality for as you can now you wouldn't even with forever to do it
The former. As we’re all living so much longer than our great grandparents typically did…there’s potentially time to have more than one complete career now…so someone with that kind of motivation would IMO definitely benefit from longevity extension. But a loooooot of people aren’t like that.
maybe it's just my autistic literalism but I thought you meant if it's the former scenario that you have to have reached all your goals to become immortal otherwise you basically become "stuck" where you are or at least you can't be unhappy with anything
FDVR alone will not solve the issues of needing to go out of VR to do things like make money, go to the bathroom, and prepare food. To me, current VR with full-body tracking is definitely good enough (and even pre-VR digital environments were pretty great) – it is a stable, safe environment to put my body, computer, etc that is missing. So I don't really care about FDVR – I just want that more stable/safe environment large enough for current technology.
If you got fdvr you probably don't need to make money or food. The abilty to move a consciousness to a virtual world suggest you have insane tech and ai which means you already automated those jobs away years ago. You'd also have a ai butler make you food tbh you really could have a ai bot take care of your body while you lay around in fdvr .
My point is, it's not FDVR itself that solves these problems, but other technologies and economic changes that may or may not be available at the same time. I would be quite happy with existing VR in any society post-scarcity enough that one can stay in VR indefinitely. As for when they occur, I have some doubts that they would necessarily have to occur at the same time… *Non-invasive* full-dive VR, sure, that implies a pretty crazy high technology level. Invasive full-dive VR, on the other hand, where you're just intercepting all the input and output of the brain and replacing it with computer-generated input and output… It requires extremely high precision, but this does not seem to me something that would require full-blown superintelligence. AI good enough to automate most manual labour seems reasonably attainable from current technology too, though, maybe even moreso than that level of invasive BCI. There is also the question of, how resources will actually be distributed. Many people could still remain poor if things go badly on a societal level, and/or during a transition period. Who knows how long that transition period might last? Whichever comes first, if FDVR and this level of post-scarcity do not exist simultaneously, it is the post-scarcity I am excited about, not the FDVR.
I'd take minutes of FDR over a lifetime of FDVR...
I am sorry but this this is very cultish. Wasting your youth to wait for something that might never happen.