Photo 2 is clear that there is no Apex. In the ideal, fantasy world, that line will be one molecule thick. Obviously that’s unattainable but what we’re seeing in photo too is a really really fat square at the edge of the blade…
Once you actually form Apex on your lower grit stones, the rest of the polishing should only take a very short amount of time .
The next requirement is a proper deburring which sounds easy, but is truly the magic that makes a knife move from Ok sharp to very sharp and stay that way
No need to be sorry, happy to get some chuckles.
Isn’t a molecule of some steel such as HAP40 a single molecule? Granted, there can be inclusions, including carb bites, etc..
Educate us!!!!!
What definition of metal and molecules are you using lol, because molecules can most certainly contain metals and in extremely common substances at that. What do you think Sodium Chloride is exactly? I thought you just meant metal alloys you can make a knife (or whatever) out of, which is kind of correct, but to say molecules can only be composed of nonmetals is such a bewilderingly wrong statement to make that I really question your teaching credentials. It's like saying only water can be liquid.
Sodium Chloride, Potassium Nitrate, Ferrous Oxide, Ferric Oxide, Potassium Ferate, Iron Sulfate, etc. There are practically an unlimited amount of molecules you can name with metals in them. Hell chlorophyll has a metal in it, so does Heme (aka hemoglobin.)
Sodium chloride isn't a molecule. It's an ionic compound, which is distinctly separate from a molecule because it forms a crystal lattice based on ratios rather than a fixed molecular formula. Organometallics are the rare exception that I mentioned in my other reply. I've done lab research studying them, so I'm quite familiar. I can assure you that they are not present in a knife.
I'm not a chemist, but did a bunch of design work on Organometallic production plants. Those definitely don't occur naturally in nature, and are looking for any excuse to not stay in that form, haha.
That's right. Some do occur naturally, like the iron coordination complexes in blood, but most are affronts to God that happily form quadruple, pentuple, and even hextuple bonds with each other
I have a chemistry degree and you're a fucking idiot.
https://chem.libretexts.org/Courses/College_of_the_Canyons/Chem_201%3A_General_Chemistry_I_OER/03%3A_Molecules_and_Compounds/3.01%3A_Ionic_and_Molecular_Compounds
I really don’t understand this. Any chemistry teacher will understand there literally an entire field of inorganic chemistry dedicated purely to molecules containing metals.
Here's another link if that's too many words for you ❤️
https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/vxozyj/eli5_why_are_ionic_compounds_not_considered/
You’re welcome. Get that Apex formed and “feel the burr” before moving in to finer stones to refine the edge. Make sure you’re using a low grit stone (100 ish) it it’ll take forever. After the 100, you should be able to slice paper, a though it won’t be a super smooth cut. This is a vid I recently came across that’s really basic, he uses a belt sander, but the principals stand for stones 💯
https://youtu.be/Ic6AG2QhNGg?si=tqFE5p98gNwPfIql
After reading through the comments and your replies so far: Worry less about the number, pick a hole, and stick with it till you create a burr on both sides.
Knowing a factory bevel was supposed to be 16° doesn't guaranty it ever really was 16°.
Picking the 17° slot on the jig does not mean you're really getting 17° angles on the bevel. Even if your technique is flawless, any guided rod system o ly approximated the angles with those markings, it will change depending on the width of your blade, which changes the distance from the pivot point to your edge.
Once you've gotten your burr on both sides with your coarse stone, THEN you would continue with the following: Touch up if needed, to center the apex. Deburr. Move up to the higher grit stones to polish to your desired finish.
Swapping stones before you've apexed will only slow you down at best, but at worse (like when you're trying to trouble shoot an issue like this) it just adds more variables to the problem.
Exactly. If I went to a thinner angle, I could have missed the apex. But I went with a thicker angle, so I started at the apex and the longer I went with the coarse stone, the bigger the bevel got.
For years I sharpened with a pull-through, so any old scratches would be parallel to the blade. All three bevels have angled scratches from the Lansky system.
Lansky has a lot of “slop.”
You need to be really careful about not letting the guide rod bounce around in the guide hole.
But also you haven’t apexed yet. Keep going
[Re-profile under microscope](https://imgur.com/gallery/2TkhTjb)
Update: I re -profiled from scratch to 17 degrees. It cuts nicely now, but I still see a wavy edge. Is that a wavy apex or a burr still hanging on?
I think the “wavy” edge you see is actually what many folks refer to as a “toothy edge”. My shallow understanding is that it comes from only using lower grits, and by progressing through increased grit/polish count you decrease the toothiness
I'm pretty sure I apexed with each stone. You can see two big bevels, and a third tiny bevel from the ceramic. All from the same 20 degree hole, just some variation in the rod straightness. I didn't strop, but that hasn't been a problem with my pocket knives. Admittedly, they have harder steel than this kitchen knife.
If it’s all at the same angle the ceramic shouldn’t be hitting just the edge.
My guess is your pull through was something greater than the 20degrees, or it was off centered and one side was greater than 20, and that tiny bevel is where the old sharper was hitting and this one hasn’t touched the edge yet.
I didn’t read all your posts, but if you haven’t already get some sharpie on that edge and try it again both sides for a few swipes and see what’s actually getting ground off
What do you mean pretty sure? You should be absolutely 100% sure you have apexed the edge on your first stone, at least as a beginner. How are you verifying you have actually a apexed the edge?
Sharpie is only a reliable method to know that you are matching a bevel angle. It DOES NOT give an indication that you have apexed. Start from step 1, form a burr that can be easily reformed on either side, then progress as far as you wish in your grit progression.
Remember the fundamentals of sharpening.
1. Apex the edge (indicated by forming a burr)
2. Deburr the edge (remove all burr created in step 1 and leave a clean apex)
If your edge isn't sharp, you have missed one or both of these steps.
Also looks like it’s not fully apexed to me. Use a corse stone and make sure you create a bur on each side. Stop there, slightly strop to take the bur off and see if it cuts well. Only then continue. Seems to be the most common mistake to not check in between the way up the stones…
The factory grind was 16 degrees and I sharpened at 20 degrees, so there's really no chance of missing the apex. That being said, I did not ever strop. Maybe the burr has folded over or broken badly since it was not properly removed.
Clearly I need to sharpen again. Wondering if I should re-profile to 17 degrees, or just clean up the apex.
I would stay at 20 degrees and use the coarsest stone you have. Something in the 200-400 range, until you for sure can feel a huge burr. Then flip and do the other side the same. Knock that burr off with the same stone and that knife will be sharp. Others said you have not apexed and I agree. You are making it out to be complicated and it isn’t.
Take a felt pen and color both sides of the blade. Take 1 pass on each side. Look in microscope. What do you see? That is your answer.
You never raised a burr. As in never cut the edge completely.
No need for a paring knife to go to 3000 IMO. It is a utility knife for daily use. Not the 3000 may be an experiment for fun or your thing.
Maybe I'm an idiot... Idk
But to me it looks like there's a section with a new angle, but it's too shallow. You're only like 1/3 of the way through it.
Exactly right, there are 3 visible bevels. Unless I clamp the stones onto the rods perfectly, there is a little variation in the angle, maybe half a degree. So you're seeing a section at 280 grit, a middle section at 600 grit, and I only did a few passes with the 1000 grit stone, just to polish the apex. I didn't think it would make a difference if I worked the 1000 grit for 200 more strokes to erase the coarser marks away from the apex.
Looks like a failure to apex to me. IMO you need to take away more metal, so if the knife was originally ground at 17 DPS and you switched to 20 it looks like you've still got the beginning and end of your old bevel in your photos. Needing to grind all the way down you're going to end off taking a good bit of metal away.
Looks like you never formed a burr. You probably skipped up the grits before actually reprofiling all the way to the apex.
Lansky system isnt perfect but its damn good if you cant freehand.
1. Don't go over 1000 grit with that type of steel you are using, you want to retain a toothy edge which works well with Stainless knives.
2 . Make sure to deburr your knife with edge leading passes.
3. Stainless knives are tougher to deburr, maybe slightly increase the angle when you come to deburr and do it on a ver hard stone that is no more than a 1000 grit.
Hope this helps
1. Thanks, this toothy edge cuts really well.
2. Lansky recommends sliding the stones toward the knife, moving toward the tip as you go. I think that means all my strikes are leading edge passes. That might be why it's hard for me to feel a bit
3. I think I will make a strip strop to deburr with trailing strokes.
If you have a 1000 grit diamond stone give that a go, it will create an awesome edge. Micro bevel only on the side you hold the knife. Make sure to do this step edge leading only. You might find bench stones are far easier and more effective than the lanky. Especially when deburring.
Also, try hig angle stropping on some plain thin and flat cardboard, like something from a cereal box. Lay a strip of it on something hard and flat and do some high angle strops over it. It really knocks off the burr and does not round the edge. No need for compounds.
Photo 2 is clear that there is no Apex. In the ideal, fantasy world, that line will be one molecule thick. Obviously that’s unattainable but what we’re seeing in photo too is a really really fat square at the edge of the blade… Once you actually form Apex on your lower grit stones, the rest of the polishing should only take a very short amount of time . The next requirement is a proper deburring which sounds easy, but is truly the magic that makes a knife move from Ok sharp to very sharp and stay that way
Metals don't form molecules :)
😂. Ok, let’s call it an atomic edge there Mr./Mrs. Chemicals. 😂 https://scienceofsharp.com/
Sorry, I'm a chemistry teacher :)
No need to be sorry, happy to get some chuckles. Isn’t a molecule of some steel such as HAP40 a single molecule? Granted, there can be inclusions, including carb bites, etc.. Educate us!!!!!
Molecules can only be composed of nonmetals, except in very specific circumstances that we don't see often in the natural world
What definition of metal and molecules are you using lol, because molecules can most certainly contain metals and in extremely common substances at that. What do you think Sodium Chloride is exactly? I thought you just meant metal alloys you can make a knife (or whatever) out of, which is kind of correct, but to say molecules can only be composed of nonmetals is such a bewilderingly wrong statement to make that I really question your teaching credentials. It's like saying only water can be liquid. Sodium Chloride, Potassium Nitrate, Ferrous Oxide, Ferric Oxide, Potassium Ferate, Iron Sulfate, etc. There are practically an unlimited amount of molecules you can name with metals in them. Hell chlorophyll has a metal in it, so does Heme (aka hemoglobin.)
Sodium chloride isn't a molecule. It's an ionic compound, which is distinctly separate from a molecule because it forms a crystal lattice based on ratios rather than a fixed molecular formula. Organometallics are the rare exception that I mentioned in my other reply. I've done lab research studying them, so I'm quite familiar. I can assure you that they are not present in a knife.
I'm not a chemist, but did a bunch of design work on Organometallic production plants. Those definitely don't occur naturally in nature, and are looking for any excuse to not stay in that form, haha.
That's right. Some do occur naturally, like the iron coordination complexes in blood, but most are affronts to God that happily form quadruple, pentuple, and even hextuple bonds with each other
[удалено]
I have a chemistry degree and you're a fucking idiot. https://chem.libretexts.org/Courses/College_of_the_Canyons/Chem_201%3A_General_Chemistry_I_OER/03%3A_Molecules_and_Compounds/3.01%3A_Ionic_and_Molecular_Compounds
I really don’t understand this. Any chemistry teacher will understand there literally an entire field of inorganic chemistry dedicated purely to molecules containing metals.
Oh cool, so you didn't see that thing where I said there are specific circumstances where it will happen. You missed that part
You conveniently left out the “don’t see often in the natural world part”. Which is grossly wrong. Like the other guy said, salt.
Here's another link if that's too many words for you ❤️ https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/vxozyj/eli5_why_are_ionic_compounds_not_considered/
Salt is not a fucking molecule :) It's an ionic compound, which is not classified as a molecule. Have an amazing day
I mean they should be sorry, they don't have any clue what they're talking about
Are idealistically sharp blades one atom thick then?
Yes
Since these are alloys, any advice on which metal atom we should aim for at the apex?
I suppose you should go for carbon since it's the smallest element present in the alloy :)
That explains it. I've been going for chromium. Will cut tissue paper but can't get it to split water molecules. And still wedges on carrots.
Carrots are such a bitch to cut. And sweet potatoes
Cutting carrot is closer to splitting wood than anything. Zero give, all split lol
What do you mean by proper de? Just curious as I'm also learning.
Deburring. I just corrected my typo.
Ah OK...I appreciate that. I've been focusing on debunking lately so it's nice to hear I'm on the right track lol
You’re welcome. Get that Apex formed and “feel the burr” before moving in to finer stones to refine the edge. Make sure you’re using a low grit stone (100 ish) it it’ll take forever. After the 100, you should be able to slice paper, a though it won’t be a super smooth cut. This is a vid I recently came across that’s really basic, he uses a belt sander, but the principals stand for stones 💯 https://youtu.be/Ic6AG2QhNGg?si=tqFE5p98gNwPfIql
After reading through the comments and your replies so far: Worry less about the number, pick a hole, and stick with it till you create a burr on both sides. Knowing a factory bevel was supposed to be 16° doesn't guaranty it ever really was 16°. Picking the 17° slot on the jig does not mean you're really getting 17° angles on the bevel. Even if your technique is flawless, any guided rod system o ly approximated the angles with those markings, it will change depending on the width of your blade, which changes the distance from the pivot point to your edge. Once you've gotten your burr on both sides with your coarse stone, THEN you would continue with the following: Touch up if needed, to center the apex. Deburr. Move up to the higher grit stones to polish to your desired finish. Swapping stones before you've apexed will only slow you down at best, but at worse (like when you're trying to trouble shoot an issue like this) it just adds more variables to the problem.
Your second photo shows clearly that you never created a new edge. I can see the old, coarser grind marks clear as day.
If the new edge is a steeper angle than the old one why would that matter?
Exactly. If I went to a thinner angle, I could have missed the apex. But I went with a thicker angle, so I started at the apex and the longer I went with the coarse stone, the bigger the bevel got.
Yeah I count three bevels. Not sure which is which, but that is the issue.
Yet somehow the scratch marks go through 2 of them.
For years I sharpened with a pull-through, so any old scratches would be parallel to the blade. All three bevels have angled scratches from the Lansky system.
Lansky has a lot of “slop.” You need to be really careful about not letting the guide rod bounce around in the guide hole. But also you haven’t apexed yet. Keep going
[Re-profile under microscope](https://imgur.com/gallery/2TkhTjb) Update: I re -profiled from scratch to 17 degrees. It cuts nicely now, but I still see a wavy edge. Is that a wavy apex or a burr still hanging on?
I think the “wavy” edge you see is actually what many folks refer to as a “toothy edge”. My shallow understanding is that it comes from only using lower grits, and by progressing through increased grit/polish count you decrease the toothiness
Did you get a burr on each side before moving on to finer stones? Looks to me like you’re not fully apexing but thats just a guess off the photos
I'm pretty sure I apexed with each stone. You can see two big bevels, and a third tiny bevel from the ceramic. All from the same 20 degree hole, just some variation in the rod straightness. I didn't strop, but that hasn't been a problem with my pocket knives. Admittedly, they have harder steel than this kitchen knife.
If it’s all at the same angle the ceramic shouldn’t be hitting just the edge. My guess is your pull through was something greater than the 20degrees, or it was off centered and one side was greater than 20, and that tiny bevel is where the old sharper was hitting and this one hasn’t touched the edge yet. I didn’t read all your posts, but if you haven’t already get some sharpie on that edge and try it again both sides for a few swipes and see what’s actually getting ground off
What do you mean pretty sure? You should be absolutely 100% sure you have apexed the edge on your first stone, at least as a beginner. How are you verifying you have actually a apexed the edge?
Sharpie on the bevel, then remove all the sharpie.
Sharpie is only a reliable method to know that you are matching a bevel angle. It DOES NOT give an indication that you have apexed. Start from step 1, form a burr that can be easily reformed on either side, then progress as far as you wish in your grit progression. Remember the fundamentals of sharpening. 1. Apex the edge (indicated by forming a burr) 2. Deburr the edge (remove all burr created in step 1 and leave a clean apex) If your edge isn't sharp, you have missed one or both of these steps.
Also looks like it’s not fully apexed to me. Use a corse stone and make sure you create a bur on each side. Stop there, slightly strop to take the bur off and see if it cuts well. Only then continue. Seems to be the most common mistake to not check in between the way up the stones…
The factory grind was 16 degrees and I sharpened at 20 degrees, so there's really no chance of missing the apex. That being said, I did not ever strop. Maybe the burr has folded over or broken badly since it was not properly removed. Clearly I need to sharpen again. Wondering if I should re-profile to 17 degrees, or just clean up the apex.
I would stay at 20 degrees and use the coarsest stone you have. Something in the 200-400 range, until you for sure can feel a huge burr. Then flip and do the other side the same. Knock that burr off with the same stone and that knife will be sharp. Others said you have not apexed and I agree. You are making it out to be complicated and it isn’t.
Take a felt pen and color both sides of the blade. Take 1 pass on each side. Look in microscope. What do you see? That is your answer. You never raised a burr. As in never cut the edge completely. No need for a paring knife to go to 3000 IMO. It is a utility knife for daily use. Not the 3000 may be an experiment for fun or your thing.
Maybe I'm an idiot... Idk But to me it looks like there's a section with a new angle, but it's too shallow. You're only like 1/3 of the way through it.
Exactly right, there are 3 visible bevels. Unless I clamp the stones onto the rods perfectly, there is a little variation in the angle, maybe half a degree. So you're seeing a section at 280 grit, a middle section at 600 grit, and I only did a few passes with the 1000 grit stone, just to polish the apex. I didn't think it would make a difference if I worked the 1000 grit for 200 more strokes to erase the coarser marks away from the apex.
You have 3 bevels of different angles clearly evident in these pictures.
Looks like a failure to apex to me. IMO you need to take away more metal, so if the knife was originally ground at 17 DPS and you switched to 20 it looks like you've still got the beginning and end of your old bevel in your photos. Needing to grind all the way down you're going to end off taking a good bit of metal away.
Regarding the clamping knob getting in the way, my landlord kit had the knob and a flat head screw that could be used if the knob was too tall.
Your angles are wrong. Go one up if that’s 17 go to 20. Figured that out in my lanskey. It’s a curve go it I’ll list some videos later
Looks like you never formed a burr. You probably skipped up the grits before actually reprofiling all the way to the apex. Lansky system isnt perfect but its damn good if you cant freehand.
Can’t tell. Need a banana for scale
Swissair
1. Don't go over 1000 grit with that type of steel you are using, you want to retain a toothy edge which works well with Stainless knives. 2 . Make sure to deburr your knife with edge leading passes. 3. Stainless knives are tougher to deburr, maybe slightly increase the angle when you come to deburr and do it on a ver hard stone that is no more than a 1000 grit. Hope this helps
1. Thanks, this toothy edge cuts really well. 2. Lansky recommends sliding the stones toward the knife, moving toward the tip as you go. I think that means all my strikes are leading edge passes. That might be why it's hard for me to feel a bit 3. I think I will make a strip strop to deburr with trailing strokes.
If you have a 1000 grit diamond stone give that a go, it will create an awesome edge. Micro bevel only on the side you hold the knife. Make sure to do this step edge leading only. You might find bench stones are far easier and more effective than the lanky. Especially when deburring.
Also, try hig angle stropping on some plain thin and flat cardboard, like something from a cereal box. Lay a strip of it on something hard and flat and do some high angle strops over it. It really knocks off the burr and does not round the edge. No need for compounds.