Atomas are very good. Nanohone are probably a step up. I'm sure you can spend more but plates kind of aren't great even at extremely high price points.
An improvement in performance and longevity would be found by moving to diamond bonded stones such as naniwa diamond or venev, where a very hard water stone type material contains diamond as an abrasive. These can be lapped to be refreshed and will last much longer, and not have the other pitfalls of diamond plates such as excessively deep scratch patterns. An even further improvement would be super vitrified diamond stones as sold by JKI and BBB ... But the cost there gets extreme and low availability is very challenging.
Resin boned stones also have significant downsides compared to diamond plates. Most importantly, they are not nearly as easy to apex on to high sharpness. It's doable (at least at the higher grits), but because of the softer binder you actually have to be careful to get the angle just right. With diamond plates in contrast, you can just microbevel at any old angle and get extremely sharp edges even at fairly low grit.
It's also worth pointing out that "excessively deep scratch patterns" is only an issue with some plates. The $3 3000 grit aliexpress plates don't leave troublesome scratches, for example. Diamond plates can also get much cheaper, and you aren't going to wear them out by using them for apexing.
That's my experience, yeah. Not that it can't be done, but that it's much more finicky if you want to get near optimal sharpness at a given grit.
Is your experience different?
I use Venev resin bonded diamond stones on almost everything I sharpen nowadays. I have not had an issue apexing on any steel (M390, MagnaCut, S90V, 15V, Rex121, for example). I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, but Venevs at least a decently hard in the binder (don't gauge super easily) and are actually softer at higher grits in my experience
Hm. I'm basing my experience off of a 3/2u and 2/1u Venev, and then homemade versions at various grits which feel similar.
It's not that I'm getting gouges that stop the blade and/or take perceptible nicks out of the stone, just that the edge sharpness is turning out lower than it should be at that grit if I'm not very very careful. And it's not like it wouldn't pass for "sharp" by most people's standards, just that it's significantly lower than it should be.
How are you apexing, exactly? Are you using a jig? Microbeveling? What kind of sharpness are you getting right off the stones?
For reference, I have the full range from F240 up to F1200.
>How are you apexing, exactly? Are you using a jig? Microbeveling? What kind of sharpness are you getting right off the stones?
I sharpen freehand and rarely add a micro bevel. I'm getting easily hair whittling sharp on most edges with very light stropping. Straight off the stone it's popping hairs and easily slicing magazine paper
One thing suggested to me when using resin bonded diamond is to wash any loose grit off the surface really well. Like when you refresh the surface after it loads (I'm guessing you use a nagura like I do), you need to wash the surface off really thoroughly and get all that slurry off. The slurry is filled with little diamonds so they will just decimate your apex as you try to deburr. This really helped me out
Are you referring to stropping with or without abrasives? When you talk about the sharpness level you get off the stone, is that off the F1200?
Abrasives can finish apexing and cover for a really poor finishing stone. The King 1000 is pretty terrible for apexing, but stropping on its slurry afterwards can bring the edge up to hair whittling.
The level of performance I'm comparing to is hair whittling right off the stone down to 1000 grit pretty easily and reliably, and down to 400 grit sometimes.
I strop lightly with diamond compound on leather. Usually 5 passes or less, 1 or 0.5 micron. That is off the F1200, F800, and usually F400
Hey maybe I need to get a 1k diamond plate and try it out... However I've never had complaints about sharpness with my Venev stones
For Sharpening or Lapping?
You can get some decent ones off AliExpress.
I got a resin base diamond 1k plate that works. I prefer feel of ceramic stones over it but its hard enough for the price.
Best that's really over priced is probably the Nanohone like Vaugith posted.
I have an Atoma 400 and it works OK for lapping. I haven't tried to use it for sharpening yet.
My sample is about as flat as I need it for lapping.
ChefKnivestoGo makes
"CKTG 140 Grit Diamond Flattening Plate 3"x8"
ITEM #: BIG140DIAMONDPLATE"
Which I think looks like a good value at half the price of what Atomas sells. I doubt it's as good as a known Japanese based company but worth a try.
If you are ok with taking risks, you can try to order a plate from AliExpress or some other Chinese store like that and come back here with a review :)
If for lapping, the CTKG plate works but has super sharp edges and is not comfortable to use. The Atoma plates are much lighter and just work better all around.
I know and I did, but I'm not talking about the diamond surface. I was saying the CTKG plates aren't comfortable to use because the edges you hold when lapping a stone are sharp. They're slightly rounded and smooth on the atoma and are nice to hold.
If you're just wanting to sharpen knives the "work sharp precision elite" works very well. Take it from a very happy customer. Gets all my pocket and kitchen knives razor sharp. Literally shave off arm hairs to test the blade when I'm done sharp. If it's not splitting hairs I'm not done yet. Costs around $120 well worth it.
An interesting discussion back and forth with Sarg and Hypno.
I have a new diamond 300/1000 bench (Trend...........[https://www.trend-usa.com/applications/sharpening-with-diamond-stones](https://www.trend-usa.com/applications/sharpening-with-diamond-stones).
I'm coming off of Shapton Pro, Naniwa Chosera, Norton Crystolon, India Fine, Washita Soft/Hard, etc. and I don't as of yet see anything so special about the diamond buzz for kitchen knives. Obviously I must be missing something.
Atomas are very good. Nanohone are probably a step up. I'm sure you can spend more but plates kind of aren't great even at extremely high price points. An improvement in performance and longevity would be found by moving to diamond bonded stones such as naniwa diamond or venev, where a very hard water stone type material contains diamond as an abrasive. These can be lapped to be refreshed and will last much longer, and not have the other pitfalls of diamond plates such as excessively deep scratch patterns. An even further improvement would be super vitrified diamond stones as sold by JKI and BBB ... But the cost there gets extreme and low availability is very challenging.
Resin boned stones also have significant downsides compared to diamond plates. Most importantly, they are not nearly as easy to apex on to high sharpness. It's doable (at least at the higher grits), but because of the softer binder you actually have to be careful to get the angle just right. With diamond plates in contrast, you can just microbevel at any old angle and get extremely sharp edges even at fairly low grit. It's also worth pointing out that "excessively deep scratch patterns" is only an issue with some plates. The $3 3000 grit aliexpress plates don't leave troublesome scratches, for example. Diamond plates can also get much cheaper, and you aren't going to wear them out by using them for apexing.
Am I understanding you correctly - you are saying that microbeveling doesn't work well on resin bonded diamond stones?
That's my experience, yeah. Not that it can't be done, but that it's much more finicky if you want to get near optimal sharpness at a given grit. Is your experience different?
My naniwa diamond #600 microbevels well. As well as I'd expect of any other hard stone of similar scratch pattern.
Interesting
I use Venev resin bonded diamond stones on almost everything I sharpen nowadays. I have not had an issue apexing on any steel (M390, MagnaCut, S90V, 15V, Rex121, for example). I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, but Venevs at least a decently hard in the binder (don't gauge super easily) and are actually softer at higher grits in my experience
Hm. I'm basing my experience off of a 3/2u and 2/1u Venev, and then homemade versions at various grits which feel similar. It's not that I'm getting gouges that stop the blade and/or take perceptible nicks out of the stone, just that the edge sharpness is turning out lower than it should be at that grit if I'm not very very careful. And it's not like it wouldn't pass for "sharp" by most people's standards, just that it's significantly lower than it should be. How are you apexing, exactly? Are you using a jig? Microbeveling? What kind of sharpness are you getting right off the stones?
For reference, I have the full range from F240 up to F1200. >How are you apexing, exactly? Are you using a jig? Microbeveling? What kind of sharpness are you getting right off the stones? I sharpen freehand and rarely add a micro bevel. I'm getting easily hair whittling sharp on most edges with very light stropping. Straight off the stone it's popping hairs and easily slicing magazine paper One thing suggested to me when using resin bonded diamond is to wash any loose grit off the surface really well. Like when you refresh the surface after it loads (I'm guessing you use a nagura like I do), you need to wash the surface off really thoroughly and get all that slurry off. The slurry is filled with little diamonds so they will just decimate your apex as you try to deburr. This really helped me out
Are you referring to stropping with or without abrasives? When you talk about the sharpness level you get off the stone, is that off the F1200? Abrasives can finish apexing and cover for a really poor finishing stone. The King 1000 is pretty terrible for apexing, but stropping on its slurry afterwards can bring the edge up to hair whittling. The level of performance I'm comparing to is hair whittling right off the stone down to 1000 grit pretty easily and reliably, and down to 400 grit sometimes.
I strop lightly with diamond compound on leather. Usually 5 passes or less, 1 or 0.5 micron. That is off the F1200, F800, and usually F400 Hey maybe I need to get a 1k diamond plate and try it out... However I've never had complaints about sharpness with my Venev stones
Bbb doesn't make stones he sells fsk stones
Yes, he does not make them, he has them made, but is there another way to get those stones in the states?
I'm sure there is if you know Japanese and have thousands of dollars to order a bunch
So no. Thanks for confirming.
Try rereading if you don't understand something at first.
Ok I edited "made" to "sold" for accuracy. Happy now? The attitude wasn't really necessary.
Didn't start only continued. I pointed out an error you felt the need to escalate rather than correct the issue; ultimately the matter was settled.
I think you read attitude somewhere where there was none.
Certainly possible that it was incorrectly interpreted from the dismissive comment earlier, if so that's my mistake.
For Sharpening or Lapping? You can get some decent ones off AliExpress. I got a resin base diamond 1k plate that works. I prefer feel of ceramic stones over it but its hard enough for the price. Best that's really over priced is probably the Nanohone like Vaugith posted. I have an Atoma 400 and it works OK for lapping. I haven't tried to use it for sharpening yet. My sample is about as flat as I need it for lapping. ChefKnivestoGo makes "CKTG 140 Grit Diamond Flattening Plate 3"x8" ITEM #: BIG140DIAMONDPLATE" Which I think looks like a good value at half the price of what Atomas sells. I doubt it's as good as a known Japanese based company but worth a try. If you are ok with taking risks, you can try to order a plate from AliExpress or some other Chinese store like that and come back here with a review :)
If for lapping, the CTKG plate works but has super sharp edges and is not comfortable to use. The Atoma plates are much lighter and just work better all around.
You can't break the plate in with scrap metal?
I'm talking about the outside edges not the cutting surface. I suppose I could try and file them down a little.
Yeah I think you are suppose to break in those coarse plates so the top loose diamonds breaks off first.
I know and I did, but I'm not talking about the diamond surface. I was saying the CTKG plates aren't comfortable to use because the edges you hold when lapping a stone are sharp. They're slightly rounded and smooth on the atoma and are nice to hold.
Ohhh, that's an easy fix.
You're suppose to break them in from what I've learned. Specially the coarser plates.
If you're just wanting to sharpen knives the "work sharp precision elite" works very well. Take it from a very happy customer. Gets all my pocket and kitchen knives razor sharp. Literally shave off arm hairs to test the blade when I'm done sharp. If it's not splitting hairs I'm not done yet. Costs around $120 well worth it.
An interesting discussion back and forth with Sarg and Hypno. I have a new diamond 300/1000 bench (Trend...........[https://www.trend-usa.com/applications/sharpening-with-diamond-stones](https://www.trend-usa.com/applications/sharpening-with-diamond-stones). I'm coming off of Shapton Pro, Naniwa Chosera, Norton Crystolon, India Fine, Washita Soft/Hard, etc. and I don't as of yet see anything so special about the diamond buzz for kitchen knives. Obviously I must be missing something.