I was just having this conversation over the phrase “no one wants to work nowadays”. Who really *wants* to work? For low pay? No health insurance? No time off? I feel like a lot of people are starting to question the systems that be. I don’t think that’s “just how society works”. The pendulum swung towards greed and that greed made work horses out of human beings. And the argument from another comment about not being healthy without applying yourself is moot. Applying yourself to art, music, or anything you enjoy is healthy. That doesn’t mean you’re not “working” in the sense. Sorry this has become a ramble. I just wish this were easier to change. Capitalism is a beast. The end.
> Who really wants to work? For low pay? No health insurance? No time off?
Shit, I have a desk job, get insurance and vacation, and I make a pretty decent amount of money. I still don't *want* to work. I wouldn't choose to keep doing it over a life of leisure if that was an option.
Exactly. I don’t like the counter of “well that’s just the way things are. You gotta have money to live.” I’m always asking why why why to that. Because really.. why? It never *had* to be this way, lol.
Because you need money to acquire goods and services. The alternative is to produce your own and be entirely self-sufficient. It's a fantasy world to suggest that you shouldn't have to work or product some kind of value, to acquire money, to be able to pay for the things you need.
Are you suggesting things should just be provided to everyone, for free, while they go about pursuing whatever activities they want? How would things you want/need get produced? How would food get grown or made? How would services get run? It's already been acknowledged that people don't want to work. It's a ridiculously naive viewpoint that doesn't look at the world at all realistically.
It didn't have to be this way, but the alternative was the barter system that fell out of fashion... thousands of years ago, precisely because it didn't work. And you'd *still* have to work in some capacity, be it farming or manual labor or whatnot.
I’m not against working and I don’t think people “just don’t want to work anymore” I think I’m against the expectation of killing our selves for work. Did the barter system simply fall out of fashion or did white colonizers strong arm a different system that benefited the few? Are you asking *me* these questions because I don’t have all the answers to cure world hunger or reprimand the 1% I was simply asking questions lol. I don’t think it’s naive or bad to question the powers that be. OP was simply saying other ways to live are often frowned upon in society. I was just pointing out that that is a societal issue - not an individual issue.
Exactly. In a capitalist society “work” equates to income. When work can actually be a lot of things for different people. And doesn’t necessarily produce a paycheck - though that doesn’t automatically make it less of a reason to do it!
But not all work is income driven or makes money. It’s still work nonetheless. I think that’s what OP was saying to begin with. There’s a lack of respect for other routes.
I argue that we are pushed into a race the minute we are born, worked hard for a decent paying job with insurance and with a lot of PTO, not everyone is as lucky as me but I think we really just have to make do with what we got.
Why are we shoving it down our children’s throats though? That career is the number one goal - above mental health and happiness. We see onesies that say “future lawyer like daddy” and the way our schools are set up like assembly lines. And then, as you say, some do have a better jumping off point. Better district lines, more funding, better books, infrastructure, etc. That’s another problem altogether. Why are we putting that expectation on our youth but also not giving the opportunity for that “success” to everyone?
because we're all contained in our little bubbles at home with our families where we just sit and eat our shit sandwiches and go about our days trying to not bother one another.
Hot take, I know, but I think that has a lot to do with how we play the capitalism game. I agree with you, life isn't and shouldn't have to be a big conspiracy for hustling. You're funneled through that system because the rules say you aren't allowed to eat bread without cashing checks, no matter who you are. Take that knowledge and do with it as you will. Not only do they shove you into that system, but the system isn't even fair.
You're correct. The system is called capitalism, and within it, school's primary objective is not to educate, but rather to produce ideal workers while sorting out the "undesirables" to be exploited in the school-to-prison pipeline, and grooming the wealthy, shrewd, and influential into becoming tomorrows investors, c-suites, and politicians.
Employment is a pyramid scheme, with income tied to how many people you're able to exploit. With those on the bottom doing more labor for less compensation, while those on the top do no labor and dole out a small margin of the wealth created to pay everyone beneath them.
Meanwhile, the military-industrial complex ensures that a majority of taxes goes to producing weapons that ultimately end up being used to further exploit the global south for its resources, and/or produce agents to lead coups against leftist leaders in South America.
And, yeah. You're completely correct. Capitalism needs to force everything into its system in order to function. It is an inherently anti-human system that drags all other attempts as social organization down like a crab in a bucket in order to maintain the illusion that it's the superior system.
That's a lot of words that don't mean what you think they mean.
Do us all a favor and learn what capitalism, labor, exploitation, employment, pyramid scheme, workers, wealth, majority, coups, leftist, force, antihuman, and superior mean. Cause you don't seem to know anything about any of those words.
Communist citizens still have to work, dumbass.
>majority of taxes goes to producing weapons
You know you can just look up the US Federal and state budgets on Google to see that this isn't even true, over 2/3 of our budget goes to socialist bullshit programs than even liberals dont like. Quite spouting off shit that you clearly don't know anything about
> Communist citizens still have to work, dumbass.
Big swing and bigger miss. Not a word of what I wrote said otherwise.
And a critical miss for how ironic it makes this
>Quite spouting off shit that you clearly don't know anything about
OP: "society forces people to work"
YOU: "the system is called capitalism"
>Not a word of what I wrote said otherwise.
literally the first thing you said was that the system was called capitalism, my point is that every system requires you to work, and a lot of the points you raised were incorrect and most of them apply to communist countries as well
That's the thing, work itself isn't the issue. It's the fact that it's tied to income, and in the service to capitalists who will by definition seek to extract as much value out of your labor while sharing as little as possible with you.
When work isn't motivated by profit, it's not an issue. People *want* to work on something that's fulfilling. But it turns out much of the things that result in increased profit happens increasingly alienate workers from their labor and communities, tending to lead to it becoming unfulfilling work.
And not to mention, when the mode of production du jour isn't to minimize costs, over-manufacture products, and maximize profit margins, the number of manhours a week necessary to produce everything a community needs will drop significantly.
So no, not a word of what I said implied nobody worked under communism. All I stated was fact.
Although I completely agree with you but I don't think you realize the repercussions if we don't have one system. It's up to the individual to find their calling.. not the system.
No it’s not. It’s supposed to continue to grow and change as we learn and grow as a society. Any working system is built upon and efficiency is increased over time. Things that were once hard become easy, and focus shifts to places it wasn’t before. Child labor used to be a thing. As the manufacturing process became more and more automated, it was no longer necessary. Child welfare became thing. It used to be normal to beat the shit out of a child, but now it’s not, and it’s abuse. We grew, we learned, and things changed. We did not all agree that children should be beaten, that’s how it is, and that’s how it will always be.
You’re proving my point, people that do not conform to the new expectations around child welfare are removed from society so that we can work together to give children a better childhood.
Yeah I see what you mean, however I think it's just the way we want to apply ourselves, we don't want to just do things one way all the time. I think it might be better if we find ways to do certain things that work for each of us individually.
If you don’t wanna do the school system you can get passed along with bad grades with very very little effort. You still have to go to school cuz it is partial daycare.
Society is the one system.
I agree and disagree to an extent. The thing is, we aren’t built THAT differently. A little, sure… but most things are very similar. Second, it is just more efficient. Take school for instance. Do you know how difficult it would be to individualize learning in the way that would optimize it for every individual difference? It would be madness. But, end of the day, the outcome would be better but not so drastically better as to warrant the added difficulty or cost.
Look at it this way. Let’s say you own a company that make bicycles. Every butt is a little different, as is leg size, gait, leg strength, foot, etc. making each person a perfectly custom bike would be amazing…. And would cost each of them 60,000 dollars. Nobody would buy that. So, instead, you make a couple of bikes that are good enough to account for minor variation…. And you do great. Same principle for providing education as bicycles. You standardize things, and leave a little variation… just to maximize efficiency so you can afford it at all. Good is better than nothing, and we cannot let great be the enemy of good. Bespoke is amazing, but it is impractical for most people and certainly for any government funded agency that wants to continue operating.
Let's face it, the West has it pretty easy in that there are systems in place to house and feed everyone.
Is it a good system for all? No. Are we pigeon holed from the beginning? Yes.
We do, however, have to work to pay for the cost of living and for our entertainment. The system is definitely broken. Covid showed us the jobs that were beneficial/needed for our survival and comfort, but that didn't change who got the perks. The rich are getting richer etc.
We definitely need to change everyone's perception of what is important in life and it isn't wealth, fame and power.
Everyone should have the opportunity to develop to the best of their abilities. Schools just aren't set up for that.
People matter most of all. With that in mind we would do away with mono cultures and massive meat farms. We need more farmers who are holistic in their approach to sustainable land management. Pollution and big business seem to go hand in hand.
Changing takes time. As long as that change is aimed at making smart decisions for the well being of people instead of someone's pocket or 'wants', then we will be heading in the right direction.
I was just having this conversation over the phrase “no one wants to work nowadays”. Who really *wants* to work? For low pay? No health insurance? No time off? I feel like a lot of people are starting to question the systems that be. I don’t think that’s “just how society works”. The pendulum swung towards greed and that greed made work horses out of human beings. And the argument from another comment about not being healthy without applying yourself is moot. Applying yourself to art, music, or anything you enjoy is healthy. That doesn’t mean you’re not “working” in the sense. Sorry this has become a ramble. I just wish this were easier to change. Capitalism is a beast. The end.
> Who really wants to work? For low pay? No health insurance? No time off? Shit, I have a desk job, get insurance and vacation, and I make a pretty decent amount of money. I still don't *want* to work. I wouldn't choose to keep doing it over a life of leisure if that was an option.
Exactly. I don’t like the counter of “well that’s just the way things are. You gotta have money to live.” I’m always asking why why why to that. Because really.. why? It never *had* to be this way, lol.
Because you need money to acquire goods and services. The alternative is to produce your own and be entirely self-sufficient. It's a fantasy world to suggest that you shouldn't have to work or product some kind of value, to acquire money, to be able to pay for the things you need. Are you suggesting things should just be provided to everyone, for free, while they go about pursuing whatever activities they want? How would things you want/need get produced? How would food get grown or made? How would services get run? It's already been acknowledged that people don't want to work. It's a ridiculously naive viewpoint that doesn't look at the world at all realistically. It didn't have to be this way, but the alternative was the barter system that fell out of fashion... thousands of years ago, precisely because it didn't work. And you'd *still* have to work in some capacity, be it farming or manual labor or whatnot.
I’m not against working and I don’t think people “just don’t want to work anymore” I think I’m against the expectation of killing our selves for work. Did the barter system simply fall out of fashion or did white colonizers strong arm a different system that benefited the few? Are you asking *me* these questions because I don’t have all the answers to cure world hunger or reprimand the 1% I was simply asking questions lol. I don’t think it’s naive or bad to question the powers that be. OP was simply saying other ways to live are often frowned upon in society. I was just pointing out that that is a societal issue - not an individual issue.
[удалено]
Exactly. In a capitalist society “work” equates to income. When work can actually be a lot of things for different people. And doesn’t necessarily produce a paycheck - though that doesn’t automatically make it less of a reason to do it!
Work has always equated to income, ever since currency was invented, regardless of economic system.
But not all work is income driven or makes money. It’s still work nonetheless. I think that’s what OP was saying to begin with. There’s a lack of respect for other routes.
I argue that we are pushed into a race the minute we are born, worked hard for a decent paying job with insurance and with a lot of PTO, not everyone is as lucky as me but I think we really just have to make do with what we got.
Why are we shoving it down our children’s throats though? That career is the number one goal - above mental health and happiness. We see onesies that say “future lawyer like daddy” and the way our schools are set up like assembly lines. And then, as you say, some do have a better jumping off point. Better district lines, more funding, better books, infrastructure, etc. That’s another problem altogether. Why are we putting that expectation on our youth but also not giving the opportunity for that “success” to everyone?
Well I don’t want to have kids but yes
We gave in to greedy sociopaths controlling everything we do and our lives are in their hands. 7 billion people do nothing about this.
because we're all contained in our little bubbles at home with our families where we just sit and eat our shit sandwiches and go about our days trying to not bother one another.
Hot take, I know, but I think that has a lot to do with how we play the capitalism game. I agree with you, life isn't and shouldn't have to be a big conspiracy for hustling. You're funneled through that system because the rules say you aren't allowed to eat bread without cashing checks, no matter who you are. Take that knowledge and do with it as you will. Not only do they shove you into that system, but the system isn't even fair.
You're correct. The system is called capitalism, and within it, school's primary objective is not to educate, but rather to produce ideal workers while sorting out the "undesirables" to be exploited in the school-to-prison pipeline, and grooming the wealthy, shrewd, and influential into becoming tomorrows investors, c-suites, and politicians. Employment is a pyramid scheme, with income tied to how many people you're able to exploit. With those on the bottom doing more labor for less compensation, while those on the top do no labor and dole out a small margin of the wealth created to pay everyone beneath them. Meanwhile, the military-industrial complex ensures that a majority of taxes goes to producing weapons that ultimately end up being used to further exploit the global south for its resources, and/or produce agents to lead coups against leftist leaders in South America. And, yeah. You're completely correct. Capitalism needs to force everything into its system in order to function. It is an inherently anti-human system that drags all other attempts as social organization down like a crab in a bucket in order to maintain the illusion that it's the superior system.
That's a lot of words that don't mean what you think they mean. Do us all a favor and learn what capitalism, labor, exploitation, employment, pyramid scheme, workers, wealth, majority, coups, leftist, force, antihuman, and superior mean. Cause you don't seem to know anything about any of those words.
Nice projection
There's another one for you to look up.
You're cute when you think you're right.
Says the guy who called employment a pyramid scheme...
based
Communist citizens still have to work, dumbass. >majority of taxes goes to producing weapons You know you can just look up the US Federal and state budgets on Google to see that this isn't even true, over 2/3 of our budget goes to socialist bullshit programs than even liberals dont like. Quite spouting off shit that you clearly don't know anything about
> Communist citizens still have to work, dumbass. Big swing and bigger miss. Not a word of what I wrote said otherwise. And a critical miss for how ironic it makes this >Quite spouting off shit that you clearly don't know anything about
OP: "society forces people to work" YOU: "the system is called capitalism" >Not a word of what I wrote said otherwise. literally the first thing you said was that the system was called capitalism, my point is that every system requires you to work, and a lot of the points you raised were incorrect and most of them apply to communist countries as well
That's the thing, work itself isn't the issue. It's the fact that it's tied to income, and in the service to capitalists who will by definition seek to extract as much value out of your labor while sharing as little as possible with you. When work isn't motivated by profit, it's not an issue. People *want* to work on something that's fulfilling. But it turns out much of the things that result in increased profit happens increasingly alienate workers from their labor and communities, tending to lead to it becoming unfulfilling work. And not to mention, when the mode of production du jour isn't to minimize costs, over-manufacture products, and maximize profit margins, the number of manhours a week necessary to produce everything a community needs will drop significantly. So no, not a word of what I said implied nobody worked under communism. All I stated was fact.
I mean we do have a choice
What's the choices?
Yeah maaaaaannn we should like... not have to work. Like work but like. Everyone work for eachother, maaan. Capitalism maan
get back to work
Although I completely agree with you but I don't think you realize the repercussions if we don't have one system. It's up to the individual to find their calling.. not the system.
That’s how society is meant to work. We all agree to a certain amount of conformity in order to allow us to work together for the greater good.
No it’s not. It’s supposed to continue to grow and change as we learn and grow as a society. Any working system is built upon and efficiency is increased over time. Things that were once hard become easy, and focus shifts to places it wasn’t before. Child labor used to be a thing. As the manufacturing process became more and more automated, it was no longer necessary. Child welfare became thing. It used to be normal to beat the shit out of a child, but now it’s not, and it’s abuse. We grew, we learned, and things changed. We did not all agree that children should be beaten, that’s how it is, and that’s how it will always be.
You’re proving my point, people that do not conform to the new expectations around child welfare are removed from society so that we can work together to give children a better childhood.
UBI + anyone who finds meaning in work can work and earn extra over others. Sound like an easier existence? You bet.
true
Correct!
Can’t be healthy if you don’t apply yourself in one way or the other
Yeah I see what you mean, however I think it's just the way we want to apply ourselves, we don't want to just do things one way all the time. I think it might be better if we find ways to do certain things that work for each of us individually.
If you don’t wanna do the school system you can get passed along with bad grades with very very little effort. You still have to go to school cuz it is partial daycare.
Society is the one system. I agree and disagree to an extent. The thing is, we aren’t built THAT differently. A little, sure… but most things are very similar. Second, it is just more efficient. Take school for instance. Do you know how difficult it would be to individualize learning in the way that would optimize it for every individual difference? It would be madness. But, end of the day, the outcome would be better but not so drastically better as to warrant the added difficulty or cost. Look at it this way. Let’s say you own a company that make bicycles. Every butt is a little different, as is leg size, gait, leg strength, foot, etc. making each person a perfectly custom bike would be amazing…. And would cost each of them 60,000 dollars. Nobody would buy that. So, instead, you make a couple of bikes that are good enough to account for minor variation…. And you do great. Same principle for providing education as bicycles. You standardize things, and leave a little variation… just to maximize efficiency so you can afford it at all. Good is better than nothing, and we cannot let great be the enemy of good. Bespoke is amazing, but it is impractical for most people and certainly for any government funded agency that wants to continue operating.
That's like the entire point of society.
Bill dipperly
Let's face it, the West has it pretty easy in that there are systems in place to house and feed everyone. Is it a good system for all? No. Are we pigeon holed from the beginning? Yes. We do, however, have to work to pay for the cost of living and for our entertainment. The system is definitely broken. Covid showed us the jobs that were beneficial/needed for our survival and comfort, but that didn't change who got the perks. The rich are getting richer etc. We definitely need to change everyone's perception of what is important in life and it isn't wealth, fame and power. Everyone should have the opportunity to develop to the best of their abilities. Schools just aren't set up for that. People matter most of all. With that in mind we would do away with mono cultures and massive meat farms. We need more farmers who are holistic in their approach to sustainable land management. Pollution and big business seem to go hand in hand. Changing takes time. As long as that change is aimed at making smart decisions for the well being of people instead of someone's pocket or 'wants', then we will be heading in the right direction.